[Anguish 2.0] Proof Economy

[solid shale]

This thread is intended to track conversation around Anguish economy.
Let's focus on highlighting pain points, and making suggestions on what can be improved with a focus on Quality of Life, over strictly efficiency.

If you have a concern, try to raise that concern with a suggested solution to that concern.

As always, please keep these threads respectful.

[Anguish 2.0] Proof Economy

[lunar bane]

Add lower tiers fights to drop proofs at lower chance/amount. Example for T10 toon, T9 will drop 2/3 chance/amount of proofs, T8s will drop 1/3 chance/amout of proofs. For all 4 paths. Dungeons/towers/world farm will be better, raids (now much better than other paths), will be less rewarding.

[solid shale]

Just theory crafting with you here - would that make Dungeons far and away the most efficient tree to level?

[lunar bane]

Give me few mins, will do some sheet math to see.

[proud zephyr]

Ang 2.0 is really nice, and I love the intent behind this new update.
Regarding economy, it's sadly broken due to at least one path (agony) being way too rewarding/time/difficulty. Currently, if someone spend as much time as me on average/day, and spend this time on agony with max efficiency, it's just madness (taking into account most factors, it's more than 10 times better than mel for exemple + it removed completely the "challenges" intent of ang2.0).
What I would love to see/content for now :

• despair : it seems - but I don't have enough proof rate datas - rewards are decent afaik. But the gameplay is really hard when trying to play in real party, and this is the point that may need an improvement, with ability to send invitations to join world mob fight. It would greatly help (yes, it will also be madness for alts players, but well...).
• mel : there have been some suggestions, such as receiving proof from lower tier mobs/boss with reduced rate, but if it happens, it IMHO has to be strickly available when running dungeons on your tier (= no proof from spaming not challenging content)
• torment : seems ok for now, the main "issue" imho is this content may feel a bit too much class dependant, but maybe shackles change and so on will help, hard to factor everything here !
  Overall, I think reduced drop rate for lower tier mobs/boss/raids could be fair. It doesn't mean it has to be better than what we have now, but for gameplay perspective it could help a bit.
  But please, stop the agony madness, it's not healthy for the game, not taking it into account now will lead to way more issues soon as you ll have to deal with powercreep thread with players crying on one side because they didn t use it and planed too while others will cry because they won t have their daily dose of powercreep (and as you have seen on our previous talk Dangy, it may also lead to some frustration for players who don t want to jump into those madness 😜)

[spiral needle]

Despair is already madness for people using alts: #811254803199164436 message

Zero cost of entry, infinite spawns, and a great proof rate thanks to AoE fights.

I’ve always been a huge proponent of world farming and of making it interesting, but, with the current system, I honestly think AoE encounters should be disabled for party play, or alt players will just run this non stop

I agree with the proposal of having T8s and T9s dropping proofs at a lower rate.

I think torment right now is in a good spot, and melancholy needs some love, but the lower tier change might help fix it

[proud zephyr]

Yes I agree with it. That's why my anonymous (woopsye) suggestion of removing alts for ang 2.0 released wasn t that bad ^^

[proud zephyr]

Yes, I would not like to see dungeons becomint too rewarding, but according to what I can see (how "slow" it feels compared to some other path), I think it may be just fair. We/NF just have to find the fair numbers

[proud zephyr]

It may not be very popular, but I think we may think about a cap for lower tier mob/boss to limit at some point. 1/3 1/2 may be good for low ang, but may become too OP for higher. Idk.

[lunar bane]

It is 83% increase of proof drop rate for melancholy. As I saw from the video torment is broken like this, but simple "both need same level" same as for raids, dungeons would repair it? Well, I know they can always level alt too.

Dropping 10 proofs at melancholy at ang12/13 from whole dungeon is just bad. My avg per raid on that level is higher. And faster. Maybe 2/3 and 1/3 is bit too much, but adding the mobs is imo good step. Could be 1/2 and 1/4 (thats 63% increase).

[spiral needle]

I think we might end up having to have different % for different content though. A 1/4 chance would cap t8 proofs at a maximum of 10 proofs per raid for example (at the highest possible drop chance)

[lunar bane]

Which is ok? They are still T8 and fairly low HP & easy for you, no? Agony needs some decrease of proofs rate anyway, We can't boost other guilds to agony level.

[spiral needle]

Let me preface by explaining how it seems agony proofs work: there’s a cap of 40 proofs per raid, and the game rolls your proof chance 40 times to determine how many you get. This means that, at agony 50, where your drop rate is around 90ish %, a t8 raid would never drop more than 10 proofs. I’m not agony 50, but at agony 35 t8 raids aren’t the walk in the park that everyone seems to think they are. Similarly, t9 raids, assuming the 1/2 number, would be capped at 20 proofs. There’s a bunch of t9 raids that are very strong and with high hp values, a cap of 20 (and this is at the highest of highs in the guild) seems too low as well

Remember that this would be even more punishing at lower agony levels

[lunar bane]

I'm trying to compare agony vs other guilds, not agony vs agony. Of course it will drop them down, but how else would you like to restrict it? Do you agree that agony level is far more easier than other paths? Do you agree that it needs to be toned down, which means lower rewards, rather than bringing all other paths much more higher (to agony level)?

[proud zephyr]

When you compare to other content it doesn't seem that bad tbh, it's just so boosted rn. And contrary to mel/torment when you have to spend a minimum amount of time you can't reduce (= even at max speed you can't change fact that you have to deal with different floors), raid is one single screen, so builds/AL and so on help improving it.

[spiral needle]

Of course, that’s why I’m advocating for the lower tier change as well. I’m just saying 1/4 and 1/2 don’t feel like the right numbers, based on the proof cap currently in place

[spiral needle]

But you have to take into account that, while nerfing agony with this change, you’re boosting Mel and torment at the same time. So you can’t just look at how low you pull agony, because you’re pulling the others up as well

[lunar bane]

I will make a sheet how it will affect regular summoning scroll amount of proofs, since rate of raids pet scrolls are known. Curious myself...

[spiral needle]

I still think agony should be slightly more profitable than Mel and torment given the cost of entry and higher difficulty, so ideally the change would pull all the paths close, while leaving agony slightly ahead

[proud zephyr]

Thank you for the sheets Gurn ! And thank you for the thread Dangy
Back to silence 🤐🔥

[lunar bane]

This is with 1/2 and 1/4. Also from non-event scroll there are 9 raids, 5 raids are T10, 2 raids are T9, 2 raid is T8 ~~and T7. ~~So umm, not really decrease. Some event (like now) have a lot of low tier raids, while also having some T10s, so it would decrease the amount further. But special scrolls you are farming for (Fey Jorm, Hippo, Sphinx, etc., are almost exlusively T10), so it would get even....

Decrease is only 28%

[spiral needle]

T7 raids aren’t summonable at t10

[lunar bane]

Why I thought cockatrice is T7 ....glitch.

The gap would be even lower then.

[spiral needle]

And the proof chance doesn’t increase by 2% every level, it depends on the chosen path. You can’t just look try focusing the 2%s but there’s a lot of times where taking them just makes raids much harder

[lunar bane]

How would it change? I'm comparing 2 same paths. % change would be same.

That is not comparison one way for other. It is just seeing how 1/2 and 1/4 would change the Agony path itself. Which isn't really much, isn't it?

[spiral needle]

I’d have to look at it side by side with how dungeons and towers look with those drop rates. In a vacuum it doesn’t look drastic, but if it makes dungeons and towers more profitable than agony than that changes the picture

[proud zephyr]

Let's have T8 Jorm spawn in dungeons : issue cleared 💯

[lunar bane]

tl;dr

1/4 drop chance for T8 (-2 tier below you)
1/2 drop chance for T9 (-1 tier below you)

would increase Melancholy path drops by 63%
would decrease Agony path drops by 25%

---

1/3 drop chance for T8 (-2 tier below you)
2/3 drop change for T9 (-1 tier below you)

would increase Melancholy path drops by 83%
would decrease Agony path drops by 20%

[spiral needle]

Aren’t there only 5 t10 summons btw? Morri, Phoenix, chimera, ygg, final horseman. Am I missing one?

[lunar bane]

yes, but also 9 raids with different weights

[spiral needle]

Numbers seem okay to me, I’d test this change out

[lunar bane]

imo it is not about hurting agony itself, as I said many times before, this wouldn't hurt much regular players... it would hurt big farmers focusing heavily on cheap scrolls ...regular players spend their hard earned currency for T10 scrolls to get proper gear

[spiral needle]

Getting back to the topic of despair, I really think party play should be disabled there, at least until systemic changes can be made to world farm as a whole

[lunar bane]

Same rule as for other content. Anguish level on same level for entering. But yea, Bry skyrocketing in despair lv14>17 in last 24 hours is good example of that. 😄 (and that level14 in previous couple of days, since he is in ang2.0 just short time). ....it won't probably be enough.

[spiral needle]

Despair seems profitable already while playing solo, tripling the proof rate with AoE fights is unnecessary

[hot slate]

i wonder how high i am if i do alt despair, tbf alt despair isnt viable at higher levels, farming lower levels with alt > farming higher alone

i'd argue that despair party play is okay, but the proof drop chance should just be from a single mob (the main/middle mob)

||also, i have the proofs for a while now, just decided to use it ytd||

[lunar bane]

Can't imagine how many hours has to take to level despair that high...

[spiral needle]

If farming lower levels with an alt is more profitable than high despair alone, that alone showcases the problem

[spiral needle]

Low VD, affinity candle on and you’re basically just spamming the same spot on your screen

[hot slate]

yes, hence my proposal, despair is already fine as is without alting

[proud zephyr]

It may not be totally true according to what we ve seen on HoA if I m correct @muted pulsar
And it may become an issue if they add auto invitation, maybe ?

[spiral needle]

That proposal makes sense as well to me, but i don’t know if it’s harder to implement from a technical standpoint

[hot slate]

i dont know, i dont even wanna talk about auto invites as it probably isnt feasible for the studio atm

[lunar bane]

But how many T10s do you kill per minute? I wonder. 3 sec per mob? click, kill, exit, everything? More, less?

[spiral needle]

Check the link to the video I posted in my first comment in this thread (that one loses a bit of time showing proof drops after every fight but still gives a sense of it). Despair is probably more device-dependent than other paths, but people with a good phone and network connection can stack kills quickly

[lunar bane]

9 fights, lets see ...

[spiral needle]

Seems to be about as much as you get from the t10 floors of a dungeon, but it skips the t8 and t9 portion and can be done non stop

[lunar bane]

dont forget you are getting 1-3 proofs if they drop, so avg 2 🤷‍♂️

[spiral needle]

True

[proud zephyr]

Seems really high tbh.
For dungeons, according to the real speed/dungeons, one hour of solo dungeons on mel 25 is about 350 on my side if I focus 😅

[hot slate]

1% increase per despair

[spiral needle]

350/h is 5.8/min, which seems to match up with Gurnnink’s numbers

[proud zephyr]

He s talking about mel 10, I m talking about mel 25. Even taking into account the ⬆️ suggested for mel, it's not that numbers you can realistically expect from dungeons

Maybe 600/hour with the changes on mel 25.
But we ll need new datas with the 1% from despair rather than 2 showed here

[spiral needle]

Where does the 8.4 proofs/dungeon come for for current mel10?

[lunar bane]

thanks, deleting previous post 👍

so in ang10 despair you are getting 10 proofs/minute in sirith speed (one of fastest out there)

in current melancholy it is 8.4 proofs / dungeons ....so rather 5.5 proofs/minute
with update (2/3 + 1/3) it would be 15.4 / dungeons ...so 10.3 proofs/minute (thats probably getting closer to solo despair farm, not alt farming?)

agony 10 (per 100 scroll) in old is 1120 proofs or 860 proofs in decreased
give or take 1 minute per scroll (some are fast as hell, some or not, 1 minute in agony 10 is conservative very slow imo) you are at 11.2 proofs/minute or 8.6

[spiral needle]

Nevermind, the math adds up. not sure how Goudine is getting much less proofs at mel25

Only possible reason I see is if mel25 dungeons take substantially longer, lowering the average per minute

[proud zephyr]

I m fine with despair giving more proof/time compared to mel, considering world farming is not - but it's maybe just me - as fun to run.
(And yes it's due to more realistic time/dungeons, especially with what may be the new mob/boss stat boost we ll see)

[lunar bane]

I'm taking pure dungeon clearing speed 90 sec. Nothing in between. But I take same for Despair - tho there is probably no waiting &searching at all. Dungeons per minute should be probably lower yea....

I would argue that Mel25 and Desp25 - desp would take longer, as monsters HP with zero buff entrace would be longer to take out then dungeon 1st floor buff up?

[spiral needle]

If dungeon is even lower that’s probably another argument in favor of the 1/3-2/3, no?

[lunar bane]

Yes, it is.

[proud zephyr]

Maybe, but not to a point to overboost dungeons, because you also get more mats from mob/boss drop+EoD via running dungeons compared to despair

[lunar bane]

EoD is pretty much only difference, as everything else for kills you get from Despair kills too. 😅

[spiral needle]

Orn drops are even better in despair, no?

[lunar bane]

Dungeon is 1/4 orn of world drop. Yea. But normal mobs drop very low orns anyway, you have to focus on bosses.

[proud zephyr]

(I don't think you Can clear as much mob via wf compared to dungeons)

[spiral needle]

I think you can, looking at that video (assuming alt play)

[proud zephyr]

Am I suggesting not to boost too much dungeons ? Damn. Boost it ⬆️⬆️⬆️⬆️😜

Then maybe a slight increase for dungeons, idk 🤷🏻‍♂️

[radiant path]

Just adding fuel to the fire - in world farming, if the fight leader is a summoner, you get 5 enemies instead of 3.

[spiral needle]

If we disable party play in despair than maybe not, though fights would be faster since you don’t have to wait for player 2

[spiral needle]

That’s an easy fix. Delete summoner

[proud zephyr]

It would be sad to disable party play on despair, as it has real fun potential tbf

[radiant path]

Party play with despair is fun.
Alt play is obviously optimal.
Such is the age old dillema

[spiral needle]

I think it should be disabled until they can rework world farm (I’ve always been a fan of world farm, think it has a ton of potential, but is just too barebones in its current iteration)

[proud zephyr]

Yes I agree it's not really easy currently on real pp

[spiral needle]

Real party play isn’t close to being as profitable as alt play because the other player needs to actually find the monster you’re attacking, while in alt play you know which one you attacked and can instantly click it. Over time that’s a lot more fights you get

[lunar bane]

I would argue that solo play >party play in this case (even without alts). 😄

[radiant path]

You can definitely clear faster than at 1/5th the speed in a party environment

Especially if you figure out a system

Or one of the players is sharing screen.
Or one of the players is adjacent to the other

[proud zephyr]

I absolutely agree.
As John said, alt play would be optimal, just like in mel, but even as a no alting player, I would still see it as a + to add auto join (if it's duable) option to have this fun content for pp

[spiral needle]

Also faster than a 1/3rd speed with alts

(Account system and a ban on Alts when?)

[split cosmos]

World Party Play has never really been optimized because it's never really mattered before. Seems like a good time to update the clunkiness of trying to start a world party fight by just adding a toggle to the party options which will just pull everyone else nearby in the party into the fight.

[ripe perch]

I mean I did party play despair farming with a kingdom mate last night, and once we kind of got a system down pat it was honestly just as fast/not really that much slower (obviously using an alt will be faster but that's always been the case) but for some numbers, 30mins of us grinding at Despair 8 my Kingdom mate got +302 Proofs of despair, forgot to track mine exactly but it was in the range of ~+280

That being said I'm all for the idea of removing alts, I just don't want to butcher party play in the process

[lunar bane]

(I'm glad in somehow stick to the table where I have 550 proofs/hour for Despair 8 👌 )

[ripe perch]

It just takes a bit of coordinating, one main thing we found is once someone has WV'd to the others OT, clearing out all the T9 mobs and to get all fresh spawns to kind of "sync up" your spawns so to say, then we worked on a system with me starting fights as GSH, he would join, then as I moved on to the next if he couldn't find it instantly he would clear a T9 mob and after that quick second he would find the battle and join
Was a lot of fun to work on/figure out more optimized methods etc

[ripe perch]

Credit where credit is due! Your math tends to be pretty spot on 💪

[candid star]

As someone who has multiple characters and doesn’t cheese/manipulate party play I feel removing alts would be extremely unfair. I’d lose about 3/4ths of my time spent playing Orna just from losing the alts I’ve built up. I’m all for a system that’s not exploited, but 2-4 of my characters have been around since 2020. Id be unfairly punished for wanting to specifically focus characters in a game that alts were never a problem in before hand.

[lunar bane]

in a game that alts were never a problem in before hand
they were always a problem 😄

[candid star]

Back in 2020? How so? Because back then party play wasn’t really a thing

[proud zephyr]

Not gonna lie Dangy, I had a good laugh seing your message about the 25k raids done yesterday

[solid shale]

Haha, why's that?

[proud zephyr]

Because of the agony issue ^^

[lunar bane]

Can we get a graph of raid kills/day in past year?

[solid shale]

Ah well, still good to have some fun.
Let's not bog down the thread!

[lunar bane]

Why we can't get stats like this? Here and there? For anything? I like statistics ....I thought you said you will post those when you started as community manager for NF 😛

[solid shale]

I have, many times in the newsletter. Let's not bog down the thread though ;)

[candid star]

Last thing I’ll say is alts aren’t the main part of the problem. It’s people with no self control/inability to not find an exploit.

[lethal ocean]

in general proof generation should not be analyzed as if it was the only reason to do content... towers for example are massively profitable on their own, same as some raids that you kill for gear, we are talking content we were happy to do without anguish (raids) and at fairly low anguish unless incredible high AL (towers) regardless, before anguish 2.0. That's why melancholy has to be improved more

[main leaf]

Yes... Its insane.
We do need a chance to get normal world fights to horde.

[main leaf]

So... This would made melancholy almost worthwhile to pursue. I like that sheet.

I dont have many words today, but i do think this would bring melancholy on track, as its by far the most unrewarding path, and only fishing for VotG and BG isnt fun.

[hardy plover]

I dont see how alt players gaining more should be a reason to nerf to to everyone or not buff it cuz a minority might abuse it

[main leaf]

Would'nt the opposite be better? Giving us a way to make horde fights without a party?

I always prefer giving more fun to people then taking away the fun from some.

[hardy plover]

Idk ig? Dont rly know how they will implement that but either way despair is rly not in a bad spot rn

[main leaf]

World farming may need a bunch of love but yes, its not despair beeing bad, its just world farming. So agree!

Mostly focussing on getting melancholy up there. I dont know if an 83% increase will save it ^^"

[old moat]

Thanks @lunar bane for great analytical numbers re: changing the reward formula around under-tier content (upwards in the case of despair/agony/torment, downward in the case of agony).

I still contend it's the right way forward both for balancing out the path v. path incomes and for correctly incentivizing players to prefer on-tier pve. That being said, for this thread I think we need beta numbers to come in at some point/updating our models once that change is in to recalculate.

---

The other big topic sounds like it's around alt despair. It was brought up a little bit later than agony over-reward concerns, but definitely seems like a growing problem that's worth nipping in the bud sooner rather than later (and having to deal with all the complaints about early-mover advantage and "just buff everything else by 10x instead!" stuff).

[sacred marsh]

Reason 3927374 to ToS multiboxing

[spring gorge]

A bit of a tangential question: has luck bonus ever been considered for the torment track? It's obviously something no one cares about in towers, but I've been using monuments to hunt event mobs for a long time and thought that luck stat would match nicely with that monument content.

Dungeons are still going to be the absolute best place to hunt event mobs but maybe monuments could get some of that love.

[main leaf]

Same regards with a deepshard bonus on melancholy to make deep dungeons less BS

[spring gorge]

Yeah, I see no reason not to extend it to deepshards. No idea how big of a bonus it should be though, I am completely out of touch with the deep dungeon economy stuff.

[main leaf]

Same as tower shards i would say, even tho that would be very low.

Spelunker is by far the slowest guild to farm and doesnt really do anything for us high players.

This could fix the issue by letting the low tier content stay the same for low tier, while giving us a chance to have a reasonable effort/reward ratio.

[hardy plover]

Arent they the best way to farm eod?

[main leaf]

Really? I take about 15 seconds for a hard/hard boss t1, but about 5-10 mins for a deep dungeon, and i feel like i get much much less doing deep dungeons for it

[serene hollow]

This is anecdotal evidence (as I have not recorded my values for this), but of the Deep Dungeons I've done between T3 and T4, every time doing a full clear, I average maybe 25 deepshards per Deep in the long term, with a record low 16 deepshards and a record high of 35 Deepshards. Though It feels like I float closer to the 18-24 deepshard average range.

I'd rather see an overall increase in the deepshard economy personally, rather than boosting exclusively the T8+ economy, which already has a higher per dungeon income of deepshards compared to lower tiers. Yes, the higher tiers have more floors (which is fine), and therefore they get more total deepshards, but given the ease with which deep dungeons are completed and the combat is trivial in most cases, I don't believe I can agree that it deserves a boost in income just for anguish.

With changes to deep dungeons, I could be more on-board with an anguish deepshard bonus.

[hardy plover]

I mean i do agree with an increase tbh it seems pretty fair for how boring the content is

[spiral needle]

It’s not just that it’s boring, the economy is completely out of balance when compared to other guilds. I do agree that it needs an overall boost independent from anguish, though I think an anguish related boost could also make it more interesting

[main leaf]

I fully agree to this. To all of it. Nothing to add, just... Yes, thats it.

[hardy plover]

Make shards gain x3 fr

[serene hollow]

But this all feels like an aside from the thread topic at hand.
I do not know what the standard T8-T10 (does T11 Deeps have an extra floor to T10s?) monster/boss spawning pools look like for how well Deep Dungeons play into the Anguish Proof economy. Does anyone happen to have this data, anecdotal or not, about how the anguish proofs income is from Deeps?

[main leaf]

But then also increase shrine prices. Else that would be too good for only that.

[hardy plover]

Meeeeeh who cares if ppl can get shrines easily

[main leaf]

I have 12 floors and i average 220 shards on a full clear with everything mined.
Which usually takes 11 minutes.

[main leaf]

NF wanting 89 cents

[hardy plover]

Ppl having 348379673 shrines sitting in their world

[hardy plover]

Uhm hey i didnt know what channel to talk abt this in but demon tools been sold for despair 2 days in a row now melanchy for 2 days is there a way to make it sell for 1 path each day ive been waiting quite a while for it to roll on agony

[main leaf]

It would be anguish discussion but it got shackled

[main leaf]

I just want to point out 2% tower shard bonus went to 1,5%, and 3% to 2,25%.

Just dont want this to be hidden. :)

Oh no nvm.
Level up just shows unshackled buffs.
Didnt say anything

[hardy plover]

Hey guys so if i play anguish content at an al lower than the shackles would i still get the shackle bonuses or not?

[main leaf]

Theoretically, yes
Swap to a class with lower AL to check

[hardy plover]

I Dont

[main leaf]

Why would you ask a question and then when telling you how to confirm it you say no

[hardy plover]

I meant that i dont

[main leaf]

Oh then nvm

[warm vine]

I stated the same thing regarding the beta. Given Odies answer, this seems not to be intended, so I guess this will be fixed.
#1394382336535302225 message

[spiral needle]

Would hope it’s a bug, otherwise you’re incentivized to stay at a lower anguish level to get higher bonuses

[crimson shale]

Could we please get a Karmic buff for hordes in despair? Maybe 30mins of random horde spawns in over world fights? Alt despair farming is wild even at low levels. Would like an option that doesn't promote alt play and makes proof rates crazy, the same if not more than agony (outside t8 snakes)

[proud zephyr]

#💡│suggestions message

I ll add this one just in case (who is this Anonymous dude 😱):
#💡│suggestions message

[crimson shale]

Ty, this needs to happen lol. People are pushing 700 plus despair an hour using alts. Not right imo. At this point alts are just the bane of the game imo. Give us WV stones to drop (capped) and call it a day on alts

[proud zephyr]

That's what I m hoping for since 3+ years 🤷🏻‍♂️

New update + economy exploit available is a real disapointement on my side.

[crimson shale]

I love the new systems but the alting to economy is a disaster rn between agony and despair

[proud zephyr]

And people pushed and are still pushing for insane rewards via agony.

[spiral needle]

Agony is frankly slower after the difficulty changes btw. High agony raids now slap you around like you’re a fly

[crimson shale]

I can say even with meta gear 40 is extremely tough now and if youre not running tanking poke poke Deity or hundreds of ALs it's good difficulty, but the t8 stuff is different

[proud zephyr]

Same. The first intent behind anguish 2.0 was great. I loved some points on first released. But it's just a disaster regarding economy. And the disapointement is as strong as my hope was. I know I'm too passionnate about those things, but it's also how I love this game. Sad but the lack of sanity/fairness in grinding is something that may decide me to have another break (after the 1y+ break I took when alt play started to invade the game)

[crimson shale]

I'm too fomo to stop playing 😂 but I get the sentiment there. Love the game even for its disasters.

[lethal ocean]

why would 700 proofs/hour be considered "too much" I don't understand the logic, getting nothing else from it

[crimson shale]

If you don't understand how that's an issue idk what to tell you. When you can abuse alts to have insane rates like that vs none and probably not even get half. That's at Ang 10 btw not even high ang

[lethal ocean]

700 proofs hour isnt an insane rate given world farming gives you nothing else. it's still far far far far far far far better to do one hour of torment towers than 700 despair proofs like it's still 5x better at least to do towers. with towers existing something has to be close to towers in rewards to be a problem imho. 700/hour isn't even in the ballpark of 300 torment proofs + 200 floor mat rewards + 100/120k shards

I am at more than 1300 proofs/hours+ mats from normal raids and that includes killing the random a morri (in more than one go) at anguish 22

[crimson shale]

Are you high? Do you know how much many mats and tools etc that is? I get maybe within 5 towers 500 or so clearing T10 mobs which is harder. Yeah you get shards but for the difficulty if despair that doesn't add up

Agony is on a different level btw I still think that's too high now as well

[lethal ocean]

there is no difficulty at torment 4 towers it's one click kill everything, sometimes 2 click, never check action and so on. and it's insanely better than 700/hour including everything

even if you literally halve agony it's still better than 700/hour because you get the gear from raids and the random mats from killing raids

[crimson shale]

Lol you're not even close. Get higher Ang. If youre coming at me saying despair isn't eons easier to get proofs and mats you're actually out of your mind. Towers are also limited. Despair you can literally do all day with alts and rake in proofs

Once that despair rate is higher it's not even a question. Towers mats are random. You can alt farm despair all day, blow everything you get from towers out of the water

Despair at 100% is 5-15 proofs an fight That's ridiculous

[lethal ocean]

despair grows 1% per level so I am not sure what you are discussing, despair 85? so you sink like 900k proofs in it?

[candid star]

Don’t you know the basement dwelling no lifers need something to do all day though

[crimson shale]

Note I'm referring this to as alt abuse not the as much

[tall cove]

Guys, can anyone explain, is every resource tied to a specific anguish token type? I've seen Realm Ore being sold for Torment tokens a lot, but I've never seen any other options

[crimson shale]

Should be random

[lethal ocean]

I still don't understand why you guys dont do the basic math and think 700 proofs / hour are an incredible amount (they aren't), and baseline random mat generation is worth little (it isn't). can't discuss economy with emotions tbh. and btw there is no fix to alts because there is no fix to differentiate other actual players and alts without ending up banning friends who play a lot together so you either ban all party play, or you stop asking to ban laying or calling it "abuse" when it's the game played as intended. So I would really stop discussing alts as an "abuse" given they are allowed. now if the rewards were really insane (2k+/hour) I could understand fixing. but they aren't which is why I am al 190 and i don't even take despair into consideration, if I will farm it it will only be to increase guild level but it's redicolously less efficient than alternatives

[crimson shale]

Those rates will get over 1k-2k....it's 700 at Ang 10!!! Also they can ban alts and differentiate based on IPs etc so to say that's out of the realm is out of question. Alts are abusive and to say they aren't is kind of out of touch. Saying we should really stop is also kind of demanding and I will speak my mind no matter what as well as @proud zephyr .

[candid star]

There’s a difference between having alts that you actively play and farm with/alts that are used to boost your main account

[crimson shale]

Also the amount of people that actually party play anymore is substationally low. If it was faster and smoother I would party play MUCH more

[proud zephyr]

Despair
Agony
Mel
In addition to all things allowed before.

[tall cove]

Hmm, I'll try to keep track of it, 'cause I can swear I've seen Realm Ore for torment tokens 4 times already, and none of the others. Frustrating

[candid star]

I guess we aren’t doing try hard math, because I see Saltys math and it definitely makes sense to me

[crimson shale]

I agree if it's the same. I believe there was a suggestion ages ago to make mats available to use any

[crimson shale]

I'm just going off what people have shown me. It's going to go up quick lol. If your averaging 700-750 at Ang10? Like dude lol.
Poor Meloncholy stuck at 350 according to Goudine I believe for an hour of work at 19-20

[candid star]

Oh no I agree 1000%
It’s cumulative rewards, so the higher you go the more you get
That was the problem with agony but now agony has been kind of fixed people want another work around/exploit

[crimson shale]

I still stand by that agony proofs should be based on tier of raid. Why ever is a t8 snake worth the same as a t10 hippo in proof drops lol

[candid star]

Agreed!

[lethal ocean]

proof rate grows 1% for agony ffs. despair 30 is 2x despair 10. you need to waste like 35-40k proofs and like 40-50 hours to get to where you maybe make 1200/hour in the worst activity imaginable clicking on map twice 100+ times per hour with 2 accounts. it's terrible. and at some point you don't even aoe turn one anymore. mel Is super low yes, ask to buff that

[crimson shale]

The man with the rates is typing hahaha

[ripe perch]

Here is a video of it, it's really not that bad clicking twice/it's definitely too strong
(This is despair 11, with an AL16 GSH)

[lethal ocean]

agony isn't fixed at all I don't know why you think it's fixed

[crimson shale]

Agony is much slower at higher tiers now with stats against actual raids not snakes. For normal people

[candid star]

Oh you mean the people saying the difficulty increase didn’t change anything?

[lethal ocean]

this is 5x faster than the fastest gameplay we ever had in HOA this is like much much faster than the fastest hour I got in 3 years

[candid star]

And I said kind of, meaning there’s still work to be done on it imo

[lethal ocean]

which difficulty increase there is no mandate to play at the highest agony level lol you just play in the highest you can clear quickly unshackled, do you guys even attempt efficiency?

[crimson shale]

Oh I forgot HoA is easier as well, explains some stuff

[lethal ocean]

in HOA despair you have to move toward the minion on 2 accounts

[crimson shale]

So we are talking two completely different styles and games so I see where this differentiates. We really need to separate HoA imo

[lethal ocean]

and economy has to be fixed for both games not only one. it's like mnemonics for us are more than double slower (vs couchable) like doing 30/hour is already very rare

[proud zephyr]

I totally agree with it. And that's one of the main reason why I m not fine with the new system.
It's Al into trivialize anguish content into more AL and so on. With the available way to skip difficulty to earn AL, this is something I clearly don't like at all.

[crimson shale]

Separate the games honestly discord wise and work with people on fixes on NF side. HoA should've never became a thing if they can't fix both right

[lethal ocean]

there is a main cord for hoa but this discussion is only here for now. and some stuff is almost identical (raids and towers for ex)

[crimson shale]

Also my hands hurt grinding Orna and can't use emulators like you guys can. I want an Orna emulator buff 😂

[proud zephyr]

(There are ang2.0 thread on HoA side too, and I m glad I can join there, and I m totally fine seing HoA players joining the orna thread as there are indeed shared things we can talk about)

[crimson shale]

I agree but there a great arguments like the one we just had when there are clear differences in the way we go about things haha. Everyone should have an Orna or HoA tag. I didn't know Ancient was HoA

[candid star]

I made a suggestion to prevent alt partying too

[lethal ocean]

anyway towers were by far the best thing to do for AL (other than mass spamming mnemonics) and still are, but agony right now is kinda absurd. maybe despair with super fast connection is decent as well but at least you don't get anything else. again the problem seems to be that dungeons become more and more irrelevant. they already were kinda terrible before compared to alternative even with ang1 at 50

[crimson shale]

Can agree with this

[lethal ocean]

one easy fix would be to give 4.5 enemies per floor in horde solo, giving more with alts is a mistake

as for despair make them horde encounters (toggleable) for solo as well

[grave lintel]

quick Q, semi-related, is Hard tower affecting in any way the proof drop as well? I just ran my first "Hard Tower" and didn't felt that different besides a bit the strength of enemies , and maaaaaybe shards dropped a bit more?

[proud zephyr]

Yes.
For solo proof farm mel is bad, assuming solo or real party play. You wanted some efficiency exemple ? You have it because you talked about it way earlier : mass alt farm dungeons (for a bit of mel / more than solo because more mob/floor too) for mass scrolls for mass agony unschack spam.

[crimson shale]

I believe it's just shards from my experience

[lethal ocean]

no more proofs. shards appear to be +20% (titan floor excluded, that's bugged and gets reduced lol).

[proud zephyr]

That's an option I shared some time ago, indeed. Sad thing is it - also - remove partly the point of real pp. But in the end, I still think it's a good way to help a bit solo vs alt. Best solution would still be to have alts against the TOS, but for some reasons I could understand it may simply not be possible.

[hardy plover]

Making unshackled play viable in the first place was a mistake

[proud zephyr]

But yes, the new meta - you wanted to talk about efficiency ? - is so far away from what ang2.0 was supposed to be that it's a clear disapointement on my side.

[lethal ocean]

new patch still has to settle but for me, I came back to Active play with it. previously too many nerfs were in the air can't play knowing 100% that stuff is going to change and I might have wasted weeks to pursue items/strategies that get nuked

[crimson shale]

I also think we haven't seen anyone at the extreme anguish levels so everything looks extremely easy. Minus agony but agony is definitely harder

[lethal ocean]

agony is utterly unplayable for most builds/classes at very high levels unless specific combos of duo

[hardy plover]

Agony 30+ anything beside the META that abyss use is completly dead

[crimson shale]

That's what I was saying haha

[hardy plover]

Been farming for 2hoursand some change with my duo at agony 40 normal scrolls and i have 4k proofs rn

[lethal ocean]

some people will show that it's maybe possible to do (say) torment 27 with some specific class and impossible amities but at the end the meta will be to play where the spot is sweet.

[proud zephyr]

And I truly don't want to jump into those weird things I "should" do for efficiency, especially as I think there were some other ways available.
The AL abuse into anguish unschack abuse into AL exploit available is clearly not my cup of tea. There were other way to build the thing.
But maybe it's fine to voluntarly shoot my own balls going schack on content where unschack spam/AL spam is just that much more efficient

[lethal ocean]

goudine think about it. efficiency is rewards given time. with difficulty scaling, it either scales as much as rewards (IN TIME) or it doesn't. if time goes x1.5 and rewards x 1.3 you are done, it's inefficient to go up. so the only way you can motivate to push the hardest possible is if rewards scale A LOT. but if you do then you have to balance around the most broken build of the most broken class or people playing that will overshoot everyone too much. see the problem?

[proud zephyr]

That being said, friends are writing for me in our french discord for some party dungeons ! Have a nice day/evening and thanks for the talk

[proud zephyr]

That's basically saying having a broken system is better than trying to twick issues on something that was fine in the intents. Removing all the intents was not the only way to go. Maybe the easiest yes ? But not the one we were hyped for, I guess

[spiral needle]

Nah, proofs scale a lot with agony level, I’d rather be slower and make sure all my hard earned scrolls drop more proofs than just farming faster for less proofs and running out of scrolls. Despair is much more problematic right now, monsters are infinite

[lethal ocean]

I guess that's different around here

[spiral needle]

T10 raids are legitimately 2+min per raid at high agony, even with hundreds of ALs

[lethal ocean]

are you playing then as if killing them in one go was the goal and not efficiency? with 15 min timer to go back it's not necessarily optimal to play to kill in one go. it's like you can fully disregard enrage in some sense and I think you should

[spiral needle]

That’s still a drop in proofs/hour since you’re doing a first go round to get them lower before killing them all, which just makes it even less profitable when compared to alt despair

[lethal ocean]

anyway it might be completely different at agony 30 or 35 but at 22 they melt

[spiral needle]

Yea, at 38 they’re crazy strong, it’s not even comparable. At agony 22 the difficulty is pretty much unchanged, it’s just 2 levels of extra difficulty scaling

[hardy plover]

After 20 its 50% stats or so per level foward

[spiral needle]

At 22 you should have around 50% proof chance, which is an average 20 proofs per raid. At 38 I have 77.5% chance, which is 31 proofs per raid. That’s 50% more proofs per scroll

[lethal ocean]

I do unshackled (obv?)

[spiral needle]

Then it’s even less, around 40% proof chance at your level i think? I did all my leveling shackled, didn’t really make much of a difference with old difficulty and gilga tbh

[lethal ocean]

nah it's like +22 from 20 to 21 and + 24 from 21 to 22. maybe it goes like that so at some point it's+50 or whatever, which just means at some point you stop there...

you just farm scrolls ok the time you save and you are better off lol

[spiral needle]

At 38 it’s +972%, a 55% jump from 37

[lethal ocean]

yes so it's (new anguish -20)X2 + 20

[hardy plover]

Chimera at ang 40 for me right now have 40mil hp

[hardy plover]

Delayed messeges due to bad internet mb

[spiral needle]

Ah, enemy stats has different %s per malus choice

[spiral needle]

If chimera hits realm strikes I just explode at 38

[lethal ocean]

HOA slightly lower per level because of polls taken with anguish 2.0 HOA v orna (i think 2% lower per level maybe)

[spiral needle]

Ah, didn’t know that

T9 raid. Only kill it thanks to second chance and take close to a minute

[tough sleet]

High Anglv raids don’t seem easy anymore.

[main leaf]

56/0... I do hope this makes it that would be a reason to shackle!

[crimson shale]

There's reasons to shackle but that buff would combat the alt abuse and give us a reason to do despair and make it more fun.

[spiral needle]

Yea, that suggestion is honestly fantastic

Also, thanks for the event monster change Odie! Means we no longer need to avoid events to farm anguish and makes melancholy significantly better

[crimson shale]

That's actually massive for Meloncholy

[proud zephyr]

It's a +50% nearly, or so

[crimson shale]

Towers too oh boy

[spring gorge]

Proof rates buffed, but wyrmhunt still starting later this week so we can remain on the edge of our seats. Well played.

[main leaf]

I feel like its better. I did a lot of dungeons yesterday - now, if we have a good event, the proof rate is just slightly under what it needs to be for me to actually do dungeons for anguish itself, at like 90%.

But outside of events that have dungeon mobs in huge quantities, melancholy still is like monuments outside of events. You gonna do them for the end reward, but there is nothing else to gain.

I love that the event mark is now no longer a hit for anguish, but a benefit!!! Its FANTASTIC!

But i would'nt say melancholy is fixed.

I do will say it generally helps anguish tho!

[main leaf]

I've not been this excited in general for a long time in Orna, i agree. Its wonderful. The mentality shifted from "punish strong people" to "try to give everyone a fun experience" again and im super glad about it.

[proud zephyr]

Hello.
Just my thought about the change for mel due to event and so on.
I would like first to thanks Knight as it's - if I understood correctly - his idea and at this point, everything that help mel is a tiny win.
About numbers : it's nearly a +50% proof bonus for dungeons. That's better. Does it means balance issues are cleared ? No, but this "boost" on mel proof tends to make me think the idea shared long ago and talked on this thread again - with Gurnn calculation - is the way to go for mel (lead to 80+% boost for mel nearly, but not tied to particular event, in addition to some more sanity in other path - agony in particular, it may be a good step).

[ionic crow]

is there any Anguish malus that only affects Spiked Shield damage but not other skill?

[ripe perch]

No, there is actually no maluse that affects spiked shield directly at all

[ionic crow]

is there any other skill like that other than chained shield SS1 SS2? it seems it was a forgotten type and everything gets nerfed elements/crit

[ripe perch]

Technically non element & non criting skills/spells like Ravage from feral claws but that's a really it when it comes to chain skills

[ionic crow]

I think even that gets nerfed by multi target malus eventually no?

How come there is no ward skill efficiency malus? was it forgotten or I am not seeing the full picture?

[hardy plover]

It does get nerfed by multi target dmg for cs

[ionic crow]

so it leaves SS321 the only skill to never have any malus?

[hardy plover]

Ss3
Bloodpact
Also followers arent effected by any malus beside elemental ones

[ionic crow]

I remember I saw follower pet act malus which affects offense, not sure about summons and bloodpact

[hardy plover]

Follower pet act effect even ss3builds in that sense since we need ward regen so it doesnt count that malus is for everyone

[ionic crow]

but I suppose it is worse for beo pet builds

[hardy plover]

Also btw you should move this topic into #1396775934614310993 this is proof economy thread

[hardy plover]

Beoa have insane amounts of pet act generally so it really doesnt effect them as much as other classes who have to mainly implement pet act into their builds

[ionic crow]

isn't that about each specific path? doesn't seem correct either, either way I am not really discussing just asking questions

[hardy plover]

Ah i c kk

[ripe perch]

"-% Multi-Target" only affects full AoE skills, like swansong, BL2, etc. It doesn't affect CS, Slice, Cleave, Ara Vesta, etc (they are considered "chain skills").

[hardy plover]

Oh rly? I didnt know that mb

[ripe perch]

That's how it's supposed to be at least, though as we know, maluses may be a bit buggy so I may test it there later 😅

[hardy plover]

Hm

[main leaf]

So, i think most ppl are tired of talking about proof economy at this point.

My take:
Agony is great.

Despair is very slightly too low.

Melancholy is still too low, and needs at least another 20%.

Torment is too low, but because towers are already rewarding, i would either say reduce lv up costs, or reduce currency value, but increase drops, as leveling it is a bit too slow IMO.

Its MUCH better then at release. Tho still, it feels like im having to put in way too much to be rewarded very little, as i habe to play this for months until i reach a point where i am no longer shackled and can profit from my power and karmic without beeing stuck at 4.

[spring gorge]

Honestly I'm kind of shocked how my mel proof rate hasn't felt higher; I am at mel 6 or 7 now and I feel like even with event enemies dropping proofs and karmic proofs that I should be sitting on more given how many I'm aoe slamming with double concords.

Don't get me wrong it feels way better right now, but I fear that as soon as we get to an event drought it will feel reeeeally bad.

[proud zephyr]

The mel drop from event helps, but it's not imho the way to go, for several reasons, mainly :

• too much event dependent
• it is something that can be exploited
  I still prefer the solution sharded long ago of mel proof droped from T8 mob/boss floors with reduced rate and T9 mob/boss floors with reduced rate (but not as reduced as T8), exclusively when running T10/11 dungeons

[solid shale]

Fwiw I don't think other changes are off the table, but it is worth seeing how each change impacts economies over time rather than making bulk changes at once :)

[crimson shale]

Agony: Slightly too high

Despair: alt reliant, karma horde buff would solve this mostly and make it worth while

Melancholy: Mediocre with events but event reliant to even make it so

Torment: towers are already super rewarding and is in a good place especially with event mobs now dropping torments as well. Towers should be a slow burn because they are so rewarding at higher anguish, imo.

Odie wanted this content to take a long time and minus agony t8 Jorms cheese and easy agony in general I'd say it's doing the right thing so far. Just need some proof balancing, and maybe some more anguish passives on say off hands and possibly one day anguished accessories or titan forged accessories.

[spiral needle]

I disagree with the agony assessment. The difficulty changes mean that high agony raids are more often than not requiring 2 or 3 runs at them to get the kill, significantly lowering your proofs/h rate. People seem to still be judging it based on its previous state

[crimson shale]

That's for maybe 2-3 raids the rest are easily soloable in one go. T8 Jorms is t8 Jorms no matter the anguish. Some raids are far more difficult but most are still easily doable with any SS meta.

Other note is raids are more limited vs other things so it would hinder more casual players 🤷

[spiral needle]

That’s very much untrue. Even final horseman can blow me up if he decides to use his ult early

[crimson shale]

I'm talking it might be like 5 proofs to high. Nothing like crazy lol

[spiral needle]

I’ve seen people drop 10 agony levels from where they were previously just to be able to clear content in a non frustrating manner

[crimson shale]

That's a build problem no offense, and class problem.

[proud zephyr]

Could be nice to mention you re doing it on high agony. Try same ang level on dungeons/tower and you ll see agony is an heresy

[spiral needle]

140+ AL Gilga with an optimized build lol

[crimson shale]

Ang 40 dungeons/towers is kill it or you die lol

[crimson shale]

There's your issue lol. Also that's high Ang like Goudine said

[spiral needle]

Sure, I’m not on broken deity stacking defenses and offense to the high heavens, but that’s only one class doing that

[crimson shale]

I don't disagree. But it's not a class basis to say agony proofs are too high for lower tiered raids. Why does a t8 raid at 20 net more proofs than 3 dungeons in 1/4 the time

[proud zephyr]

Especially when there are ways + event allowing to farm mass scrolls, if you say agony is fine, then you have to admit mel is just garbage. I tend to think mel is a bit low, but agony is way to exploitable and rewarding.

[crimson shale]

Note events helped but once dragons are gone uhhh back to normal mostly

[spiral needle]

I’ve stated many times here that Mel needs to be buffed. I just don’t think agony is as rewarding as it once was, and people are still judging it based on past results

[proud zephyr]

Wanna have my numbers on dungeons with event trying to have decent balance for difficulty/time and so on ? On a class seen as boosted for dungeons ? 500 proof/hour

[crimson shale]

Past or not agony is still substantially higher. But agreed Mel needs a little more. Not a ton since dungeons are more infinite but a little more none the less

[proud zephyr]

Absolutely nothing changed, and what was available when you reached AG 40 in no time compared to what is duable on any other path is still more than duable, and exploitable

Truth is, spaming raids on AG 4 is still better than the best dungeon spaming on way higher mel

[spiral needle]

Difficulty changed drastically, which significantly reduced proofs/hour. Maybe you should actually try some high agony raids instead of commenting on something you have no experience with

[undone zodiac]

Imo Agony good, melancholy good, torment good, despair needs to either have a karmic buff to allow aoe mobs or reduced drop rate from aoe mobs.

[proud zephyr]

And maybe you should try mel a bit more. Because if you have issue on agony 40, I doubt you would have the same on 20+, and in this case, if it's better at 4 agony vs 20+ mel, it's way better at 20 agony vs 20 mel.

[crimson shale]

I would say not even reduced proof rates but make the buff, a chance to spawn mobs 1-4 etc.

[undone zodiac]

Either way there just needs to be parity between solo and masses whichever direction it goes

[proud zephyr]

It just feels like some people get used to receive hundreds thousands agony proof in no time that they feel it's ok because they went from 3/4k hours to 2.8.
Meanwhile, mel was around 250 and now 350+ (if events) for experienced players.
And it's not like there have been a fix for debatable mechanics (alting) or debatable things (events with insane amount of shitty raids for little farm).

[hot slate]

Is mel really that shitty even w dragon events? (It is without)
Im getting around ~700 pph with ~15 mel unshackled

[lethal ocean]

with your AL you can insta-farm mel 15 like normal people farm much lower , most people get less than that. But yes getting 400-450-500 / hour with very low additional benefits of doing dungeons per se (outside specific events) is pretty terrible compared to something similar in towers + the insane intrinsic rewards of towers, or 1500-2000 in agony with very low effort + the decent drops raids always provide...

[proud zephyr]

Well, Brye, this is here the point of the new ang 2.0 "update" where you can run unschack, meaning AL is again the main factor. You can get around 700 because you have the AL for it

[lethal ocean]

that's not the problem, because the same AL allows to get the same or more in towers (with shards on top of that and end of floor mats) or a ton more in agony, given it applies to everything the relative suckiness of dungeons remains there

[proud zephyr]

And that's also one of the reason why, AL will just be the main factor to decide how quick someone will climb, and then select the best unschack spot.

[lethal ocean]

but i mean even when dungeons were easily farmable at anguish50, while towers for many at 12-15, towers were already far far far far better to progress. Now it's just even more of that

[proud zephyr]

I agree, it's a general thought about the system. It's mainly who had/will push more AL. And with all the debatable things available.....
It's not for me, as it's not anguish 2

[hot slate]

Tbf im not buffing since perma buff chance will just remove it anyway, im making my point that mel is not as low as goudine made it to be

On wyrmhunt, ofc

Mel definitely still needs help when theres no event mobs, at least in my opinion

[proud zephyr]

I ll be generous and say there s an average of 2.5 bosses able to give proof on solo dungeons = 2.5 x 25 = 62.5 "proofable" bosses/dungeons. With unschack mel 15, we re at around 32% proof rate.
It means each dungeons give 62.5*0.32 = 20 proofs
For your 700 pph, it's... 35 dungeons.
I can understand with your AL it's duable to run dungeons that fast on mel 15 unschack, but the 350+/500 is the range for people running good dungeons classes with good (not insanely high) AL.
So I can Say yes, I can agree mel is not that low as I made it to be for you, as the current system translate into ➡️ having the highest AL to run unschack as high as possible while keeping ability to skyrocket the content

By the way, you can avoid perma buff fade chance

and, to add a bit to this topic of AL, the same apply for tower/raids, with your AL Brye, you'll see the same bump in proof/hour because you won't have the same speed as people with lower AL.

[lethal ocean]

you don't skyrocket anywhere at AL 250 (say) with 700 proofs/hour lol, it's still 35 hours for one single cort/rore block + the orn farming...

• the weeks/months to have it available for that specific proof in shops as well

[proud zephyr]

I talk about the system when saying this. Mel is ⬇️⬇️⬇️

[proud zephyr]

And I hope you re not saying having some path way higher than other is fine because of this.
If I have 2 job offer, one saying I'll receive 2k€/month, the other saying I'll receive 100k€ with a 1/30 chance to receive it/day, I m not sure it's great to chose the first one.
Especially as you can buy in advance some mats if you want to.
The week/month it can take to have some mats appearing in the specific guild you farm is just a way to cover for a moment the unbalance we have in guilds ^^ no worries it will be quite clear in a few months

Tribute to all the people waiting for Rore to appear on agony

[hardy plover]

I stopped grinding the game as a whole 9 days ago gottoo burned out doing over 15k raids and now i dont feel like touching the game anymore for the rest of the month this anguish 2.0 is truly tiring

[proud zephyr]

Meanwhile, we have an agony 60 player on orna, but everything is fine

[hardy plover]

His account needs to be checked

[proud zephyr]

No, it doesn't need, there s absolutely no cheating debate here, it's just what happen when you decide to go for what is duable on the game. And as you said, it indeed may lead to burnout, as at some point, after the "woooooow that's insanely strong", it's not something that healthy for the players/game to keep those things available, imho

[hardy plover]

I kinda agree yea all paths after 30 now after the stats upgrade patch is just hell its not even fun for most ppl everything requires hyper focus everything is tiring

[proud zephyr]

Unless you go : skyrocket AL into trivialize unschack content into skyrocket AL into trivialize content on higher unschack anguish and so on

[hardy plover]

Unshackled becoming viable was the biggest mistake imo

Like now ppl gonna go back to stacking hundreds of als until the content becomes too efficient to skyrocket more als

[warm vine]

A few players complained A LOT for higher unshackled rewards

[proud zephyr]

For some reasons that are fair in the idea, but imho, sadly, it leads to a perverted system

[hardy plover]

🦛

[warm vine]

I think for raids, the incentive to get 100% anguished gear chance is a great incentive to play shackled. For Dungeons etc, I think there no big incentive (but I like the challenge)

[hardy plover]

Even in raids its not truly that insane since i already have 80%+ gear chance at 40

All in all anguish 2.0 is yet another loophole in the form of anguished gear until you finish that then you bored again

I have grinded a huge variety of raids i now have almost every single ornate i desire ang30+ and theres nothing more to achieve from raiding (besides proofs and mats) i personally dont like the progression in form of gaining hundreds of als to make content efficient the whole reason i went for the raid path first is to push my limit as an als 48 using anguished gear and trying something fun but now after i achieved it it feels the same as ang1.0 but extra steps

[proud zephyr]

It has been removed for raid too I guess ?
And this doesn't apply to raids you don't care about the drop : run them schack if you can do them quick enough, but if you can do them quicker unschack (increasing the proof/hour), it's better. Just like what happen for dungeons. When you hit some kind of wall schack, AL+unschack is much more efficient

[hardy plover]

Yea in raids gear drop% only matters in raids that arent really available like supers beside that you can just do hundreds and hundreds of other raids so it wont matter as much if you got one or two ornates not anguished

[warm vine]

Oh, I didn't realize that until now. I really thought that was a good idea / some benefit to play shackled...

[lethal ocean]

well everyone is different but there is no hurry to do the stuff (events aside), just pick a pace you are comfortable with long term, why rush?

[lethal ocean]

up to a point. Why suffer at 35 if you can melt them at 23?

[main leaf]

I fully agree to this. People still see the yorms and the low tier event raids, not the challenge. Agony falls off fast when it comes to reward, as the stat scale AND enrage together, including the maluses, become a problem really quickly

[main leaf]

I would say because melancholy is vastly undertumed, but that might be a hot take

[warped sierra]

That's what happens in any game if you over push. Not to mention that if you press yourself to the point of not having much to do, than what do you expect to find?

[main leaf]

What you did is tiring with or without anguish. You did way too much, you monotonized the hell out of something you love and tortured yourself to the point of soarking hatred towards it.
Anguish was not the issue, it was your action^^" Thats extreme.

[vapid viper]

Stepping back from the income side of the economy, the spending side of proof economy is the worst of any guild currency.

Having 2 chances per day of a material for your anguish content of choice (vs 7.5 under the old system, and similar maths for the other guilds), means significant streaks - eg, to date, we haven't had realm ore for melancholy or agony to my knowledge, but we've have half a dozen for despair/torment.

Splitting the anguish guilds into separate stores would make a lot of sense to me for balancing this, or failing that expanding their material pools more to reflect the four separate sub-guilds operating within one pool. Some similar discussion here.

[spring gorge]

I guarantee that it exists in its current implementation simply because it uses the same template as all other guild shops. The only thing I can think of that runs a parallel to this is the event candle for Avalon, and that was implemented as 3 different exchanges for the same item under arch crafting.

So this is probably a matter of "when does Odie feel like making a different UI setup for anguish 2.0"

[undone zodiac]

Imo just need an exchange for any proof type into proof of spending of whatever and then use that on the anguish shop, can look like the old token

[spring gorge]

But then you must verify the proof of spending by exchanging it for a proof of proof.

[vapid viper]

I don't really get where the split currencies make sense, we've already got them dropping at different rates as appropriate for the content type - so what does splitting them achieve? (just drop a common token according to your anguish level in that content)

[undone zodiac]

I think its so you can't for example kill raids to level your tower level

[vapid viper]

ah fair point - given that we don't have shop costs scaling up any more based on level, there's probably an argument about making them level via exp instead of currency like the other guilds in a big revamp to achieve the same less painfully, but I suspect that's pretty unlikely now they've been released

back to my first suggestions 😛 either splitting the sub-guilds out into their own shops or at least expanding the pool to make it more in line with previous anguish / other guild stores per currency.

[spiral needle]

I think a common currency solves it. Keep the current proofs as they are to level the guilds, if you want to buy from the shop you have to swap them for proofs of currency at a 1:1 rate

[main leaf]

Either all mats purchasable with all tokens, or convert tokens into a currency used to buy things. The argument of "too much currencies" isnt really there, as its T8+, at that point you are already familiar with the game, guilds and the general shtick - and we already have the base code for this in sky shards, so it already is precoded partly.

A bootleg fix could be fixed rotating costs through currencies every hour, so you CAN buy then with all currencies, but you have to maybe recheck once or twice.

[spring gorge]

Reviving this thread to complain about rotating proof costs. I just went in on 17 crucibles to upgrade the 4% crit damage bonus on my greatstaff... to 5%, with none leftover. Waiting 3 days for the right proof type made it sting that much worse.

[hot slate]

despair

two question:

• is the increase 0.5% and 1% as opposed to 1.5% and 2% per level like other path intended? if so, why?
• lunar festival: does not doubles despair's proof, it seems that its increased from 0-3 proofs / mob encounter to 0-4, is this intended?

[radiant path]

Regarding the second question, the event adds +1 roll, rather than double.
Despair already rolls 3 times per murder, so it's less noticeable. Other sources of proofs usually only roll once

[hot slate]

yes, i understand the math behind it, but it seems weird if its intentional
see: agony

[undone zodiac]

Re,#1 I assumed it was that way to balance out getting 3 rolls

[hot slate]

i thought about it, but i would argue that toning it down to (insert number) of rolls, and keeping the % increase logic the same would be better overall

as of now, progressing to high despair feels useless as it has the highest enemy stat % increase and not-so meaningful proof % increase

[undone zodiac]

Im not sure, even at low levels I'm able to put up pretty good numbers. I think its second only to agony in proof count, if we include darkrift fragment.

[hot slate]

you're correct, yes
in terms of proofs/hour, despair is already high up there

the argument was about making it "feel" useful to keep increasing the lv as you go up, even if it means toning it down the earlier levels of despair (or lowering the roll count)

[undone zodiac]

Ah yeah that makes sense. I do see a point relatively soon where it would be better to just stay in my 1 hit threshold rather than chance it going up for small gains.

For the event, I think it should probably give the 6 rolls. If agony is going to be treated as a single roll I don't see why despair wouldn't be.

[radiant path]

Isn't having separate rolls with lower chance each ultimately better scaling though?
Hypothetically at a certain point in melancholy you're going to reach the cap and gain 1 proof per enemy, always, with no way to increase it.

Whereas in despair, even though the % grows slower, when you reach the eventual point you'll always get 3 guaranteed?

[hot slate]

of course, mathematically speaking
but (unfortunately) its not going to happen, and not even close

[radiant path]

Cap aside, isn't 3 rolls at 1% higher chance than 1 roll at 2% though?

[hot slate]

it is yes (as it should be, since we previously dont have any way to do horde despair, alt and gs aside)
but this topic is starting to shift towards efficiency

the argument was about making it "feel" useful to keep increasing the lv as you go up, even if it means toning it down the earlier levels of despair (or lowering the roll count)

[undone zodiac]

IMO Despair could use the most work of the 4 paths, but its certainly not an issue of rewards as its up there with agony.

Few Issues IMO:

1. I think most people see it as the least exciting path, but this at least partially stems from the base content.
2. Class parity is way off, both with and without alt usage. Alts allow summoner players to get 5 mobs regularly. Classes with access to BL2 staves are able to clear super fast. Example: my purple-lined AL 10 Deity can clear much faster than my AL 226 Gilga, while also easily getting shackled bonus.
3. The gameplay seems clunky a lot of the time, as you generally either have to be moving (good), out somewhere/keep your OT elsewhere and bouncing to it (less good), or stacking invites and refreshing parties (worse)

Few Ideas:

1. Make Boss mobs have many more rolls than normal mobs. Would help out more single-target centric classes, and would give some love to monster remains variants.
2. When at OT, replace the OT button with a button that can refresh your world mobs on a 5 minute cooldown.
3. Give rolls/Additional Rolls to all monsters within a riftbreak. Implement some new riftbreaks with Despair oriented rewards.

These would all be welcome QoL, but not sure it solves the issue. Despair needs something exciting to keep it interesting. Since Id say 99% of world farm gear is not used, it would be nice if despair had a chance to grant you some additional drops, items, orns, mat sacks, not sure.

[main leaf]

It could be communicated easily by an "3xY%"

I love how despair works and i wish torment and melancholy would follow.
I just wish that agony and despair would not have their proof visualisation so heavily neglected. A formula that is more Logic then 20% and then you get like 15 proofs at once and you go HUH

[lunar bane]

Well, that someone decide to play GPS game from couch doesn't mean it should be promoted that way. Deal with trash mobs spawn, you have candles to at least spawn some higher tiers anyway. GPS should give you better results than staying at OT doing nothing.

Sadly this comment won't do much as in several past years patches introduce more and more love towards non-GPS gameplay rather than GPS.

I would rather see each class has better performance in one things and worse in other, rather than all classes performing good in all content - and yes, I know there are some classes being in the first part and some in the second, sadly.

[spring gorge]

When at OT, replace the OT button with a button that can refresh your world mobs on a 5 minute cooldown.

I agree that this is needed in some way, this exact implementation would be very decent as a first shot.

For example, I've gotten my despair up a bit since it has been summer and I've been able to play while taking some long walks, so spawns were constantly refreshed... but in a few months it will be crappy and cold outside for a long stretch. Saying "it's a GPS game, deal with it" and not accounting for world spawn enemies that give no proofs is just going to make fewer players actually want to touch the despair tree.

I described Despair earlier as "the most nutritious, yet tasteless porridge" and while it has received a little bit of revitalization from the darkrift fragments it is still lacking. Some effort should be put in to make people want to play that content.

Just for reference, is there a normal method to reset your OT spawns without movement? I know it can be done if you have a riftbreak in your queue but going to the riftbreak, entering and exiting the guild panel and leaving the riftbreak... but that obviously requires a riftbreak, and only lasts less than an hour.

[spiral needle]

Karmic bonus to make world fights AoE please!

Other than that, fully agree with your points

[undone zodiac]

Either queueing a bunch of alt parties and switching or moving your ot And going back and forth

[undone zodiac]

I agree with gps point, problem is gps content really isn't that much more efficient if someones just stacking party invites. If its going to exist might as well make the implementation less janky imo. Having a 5 min refresh button would still be less effective than gps play but wouldn't require the weird setups.

And agree with second point to an extent but the comparisons are so far off for this particular content. A lot of this may just be bl2, but the difference is huge right now.

I know its supposed to be travellers guild but would also be cool to see despair proof sacks if you could apply it for explore fights

[lunar bane]

Yea, BL2 is off the chart. No doubt. 3/4 of playerbase being Deity or Beo, and part of the remaining 1/4 being Heretic or GS means nobody saying a word against it.

[main leaf]

Im still baffled we got a new dragon meele AoE and its about as ass as Gandring. That was the chance to rectify that, and it was'nt done at all.

[lunar bane]

It is exactly same as Gandring. And imo this kind of power on AoE is ok, BL2 is not ok. Also, this one at least has ward....

[spiral needle]

Yea, the issue is clearly BL2’s power level being off the charts. That said, the chronic issue of only mages having access to elementless damage doesn’t help either, physical AoE users always have to deal with immunities and resistances

[warm vine]

Compared to Gandring, Thinblade at least has +5% AoE damage and a lot of ward. Even if up to now I only used BL2: maybe the higher m1 of Dragon-tail Sweep (compared to BL2) can be an advantage for higher Anguish? My BL2 damage already starts to decrease quite substantially at Mel10 (shackled), and maybe if you have 40/30 amities (crit/dragon), thinblade could even become the better choice later-on??

[lunar bane]

Thinblade can become better choice mainly due to BoF spec. Sligthly decrease in BL2 M1 could probably make wonders.

[austere breach]

Might be a bold way to put it, but I think BL2's problem is the fact that there is no equivalent melee counterpart, much like other instances of gear before the 2h rework

[lunar bane]

BL2 problem is BL2 lol.

[spiral needle]

Geppu was doing more damage with an AL10 deity using BL2 vs his AL220+ gilga using dragon tail sweep. BL2 is definitely the problem lol

[undone zodiac]

Yeah its definitely overtuned. Imo if it was something pvp relevant we would have had a lot of discourse on it by now.

[main leaf]

I like funny annoying sounding AoE go brrrr
Would like meele AoE to go more brrrr too

High damage, high anguish
High anguish, high proofs
High proofs, better economy
💸