Anguish Live Feedback

[nocturne night]

That's just general class balance though?
A "bad class" is going to be worse than a "good class" when shackled - but it's also worse if they're both at AL200?
I don't see how this relates to shackles at all

[timber furnace]

Na, you still could get more M1(Att/Mag)

[finite flint]

aside from the fact that no, with quadratic Bp, GS becomes good again at high al

[sinful vapor]

But enemies would have more res/def

[nocturne night]

Quadratic scaling is a mistake, and will be fixed eventually.

[finite flint]

but with enough AL "or doesn't matter" so all classes are playable so you don't care too much about balance

[nocturne night]

Spiked shield happened, blood pact will happen

[finite flint]

with enough AL summons hitting twice becomes relevant

with Al 10 or 30 lol

there are thresholds

which AL allows you to reach

like I play gsh/titan felled spec in torment anguish 4

because with Al I oneshot the guys with qatvanga

[timber furnace]

The formula for Dmg gives an advantage for Att/Mag, Def is % by 2

[finite flint]

so I can use that class locked into that spec and GSA for dungeons

just to brainstorm it but if shackles were mandatory from anguish 1

it will be deity/beo/heretic only for everyone after they understand how things work

everything else is too slow compared

[sinful vapor]

That can be changed

[finite flint]

well change it first

[nocturne night]

Or maybe people play their favourite class, because god forbid people don't chase the meta

[finite flint]

yes after one month

they realize with the same time invested

other people are insanely far away

and they get angry

[languid adder]

what if. Fun.

[finite flint]

people will do something they prefer if outcomes are close

[timber furnace]

Yes, but following your example, the only bad thing about forcing shackles from lvel 1, is that people will use the Best class

[finite flint]

people don't super-optimize

[languid adder]

What if not squeezing every once of optimization for your free carpal tunnel is an option too

[sinful vapor]

I don't dara endless even though it's better than heretic. I did for a while I guess

[finite flint]

but when classes are so far away in outcome at low al

it's not about "meta"

rather not feeling scammed

[sturdy stump]

Class balance is messed up in general now, but it's a different issue

[timber furnace]

I thought about that, maybe there needs to be a Unique Malus per class for anguish, making things more fair

[finite flint]

have you tried all classes in raids?

[nocturne night]

Personally speaking, I HoC'd to every class to try them out, and to have fun in their shoes for a while. And in the end I came back to GS, and I don't regret my decision. It's my favourite class. I like it.

[finite flint]

no because shackles mandatory from ang1 would make that much more prominent

[nocturne night]

And I don't even raid. So I'm not here for the quadBP

[sinful vapor]

You realize you're claiming fresh players would do this currently

[finite flint]

I have like 10 Al in all classes

[timber furnace]

So it gets solved faster? Maybe?

[finite flint]

fresh players will try stuff

[sinful vapor]

Fresh players = 0 AL

[finite flint]

I am talking endgamers

anguish is an endgamers thing

[sinful vapor]

Not rly

[finite flint]

btw I was Al 15 at level 245

[sinful vapor]

Everyone tries anguish

[timber furnace]

Thats not "fresh"

[finite flint]

that was a week after hitting t10

[sturdy stump]

But I still dont understand how you think it relates to al. You mentioned thresholds, but the mob stats increase faster than your al so how would the thresholds improve with al?

Only exception is quadratic BP which will be nerfed at some point probably

[languid adder]

Same for me! I play deity cause i want to be good at attack and magic, i enjoy not dealing with dots, and its super fun. I dont care that RS gets 5 turns in a row or gilga just doesnt die, nor that summoner can just cheese any amount of DEF and RES... deity just does what i want it to, and i played it even before all classes got their cool skills

[finite flint]

because it caps at anguish 4 pie

you aren't supposed to farm over that anyway for efficiency

you aren't getting more stuff per hour with the best class at anguish 10

than with 200 al in any class at anguish 4

[timber furnace]

Well Rs dies after those 5 turns in a row

[languid adder]

i played RS for a while, its vastly overplayed X3

[sturdy stump]

Deity is like the most broken class now loo. You make it sound weak

[timber furnace]

With overplayed you mean strong??

[finite flint]

deity is broken but beo/heretic are contenders

[timber furnace]

Or something like that?

[languid adder]

people are just "its not deity so buff it" at this point
If deity had 1 HP and 1 ATT and MAG, ppl would still say "its not deity so buff it"

[finite flint]

RS gilga and gs are a joke compared

[timber furnace]

Not really

[finite flint]

to the other 3

[languid adder]

i always hear beos complain the most about beeing to weak

[sinful vapor]

We on the nerf heretic train already? Lol

[timber furnace]

And they're lying

[finite flint]

lol?

beoH swangsong is nuts in a lot of content

[nocturne night]

So just to be clear ancient, hypothetically speaking, you'd be okay with shackles starting from anguish 1 if the classes were all balanced?

[sinful vapor]

Beo and deity are nuts

[finite flint]

beoa towerfelled still broken in raid

[finite flint]

it would be less disastrous but

I wouldn't love it anyway

[timber furnace]

But it makes sense

[finite flint]

keep in mind I don't believe it's possible to balance classes at all

[sinful vapor]

If shackles were always on, the guild would be different

[finite flint]

it's impossible to actually balance if there are differences

something will always be better

because content is static

[sinful vapor]

Idk why shackles aren't always on tbh

[finite flint]

so for specific content something will always be better

[nocturne night]

Anguish isn't meant to be the efficiency guild, it's meant to be the challenge guild.
Classes are always going to be better than each other at some sort of content, and since the classes are fundamentally different, they'll never be the same in power level

[sinful vapor]

To appease the playerbase I assumd

[finite flint]

some combo of mechanics and gear and passives will be quicker

[nocturne night]

But outliers exist and they can/should be adjusted

[timber furnace]

People didn't want to lose their Als

[sinful vapor]

What people

When

[languid adder]

to be frank about this, i think its a pretend. We are so demoralized and disincentivised from playing unshackled already that its merely a cosmetic option^^"

[finite flint]

so John shackles from anguish 1 mandatory

would just mean AL in multiple classes

[sinful vapor]

Shackles have always been this way afaik

[finite flint]

raiding with the best ones dungeon with the best one, tower with the best one

after all with 200 al to hoc

[nocturne night]

Decent amount of people. Non-insignificant.
Most from HoA, but not all

[sinful vapor]

But when

[finite flint]

you can get 3 to high enough in the time you need to get anguish 20x3 paths

[sinful vapor]

Have shackles ever been mandatory?

[finite flint]

no

[timber furnace]

No

[nocturne night]

Vaguely gestures to the 6000 messages

I mean that people don't like the idea

It's never been implemented

...because people don't like the idea

[finite flint]

dursa yolo

[sinful vapor]

So saying "people dont wanna lose their ALs" isn't relevant

[finite flint]

can raid fairly well with perfect gear

at low al

[sinful vapor]

To the question of why shackles are this way

[finite flint]

heretic can as well

[languid adder]

exactly, just wish they would be at least resembling what was proposed to us^^"
Or, if thats not the case, at least give us SOMETHING for forfeiting them. That we dont get anything in return is the one decision that i dont think i disagree with, but is an active middle finger to the people who play your game the most.

[sinful vapor]

Shackles have always been this way

[timber furnace]

No, it is relevant, that's the reason why anguish 1 to 4 don't have shackles

[pearl mango]

Why did i send that

Bruh

[sinful vapor]

Says who? Theyve always been that way

[pearl mango]

It should be on

Either way

[sinful vapor]

What I'm trying to say is, who gave the feedback that made shackles be optional

[finite flint]

odie

wanted to allow Al but with far lower returns

so he always had the shackles on/off from the first iteration

[languid adder]

thats not what the reddit post said

[timber furnace]

And people didn't like the lower returns

[pearl mango]

I am ok with shackles being on since ang1 even as a gilga

Thats how it should be

Its fun also

[finite flint]

details though about how much you could do for full rewards unshackled changed a bit

[pearl mango]

It makes focusing on gear more optimal than als

[sinful vapor]

The guild is sending mixed messages atm

If it's the difficulty guild, don't allow lack of dofficulty

It just is difficult, no point in doing something else

[languid adder]

"Ascension Shackles are optional, and when enabled, will limit your Ascension Level in battle to a level appropriate for the current Anguish Level. When Shackles are not enabled, your reward bonuses are diminished by a value appropriate for the difference in Ascension Level and difficulty of the current Anguish Level."

That is what was said, and that is not what is presented

[finite flint]

they are optional

[languid adder]

make it difficult, but dont devaluate progression without any form of return for it.

[pearl mango]

Also i love anguished gear

[languid adder]

so 10% of it is true, nice. ^^

[pearl mango]

Its so beautiful

Look at this masterpieces

Odies smartest idea so far

[languid adder]

i agree if you refer to the glow

[pearl mango]

Everything

Even anguished passives

[languid adder]

But his smartest idea was probably Orna

[pearl mango]

Gives a gambling effect

[languid adder]

those are great, agree

[timber furnace]

Umm, it is exactly what's presented now, but instead of giving more rewards the more Als you lose, it's giving less rewards the more Als extra you have, that's exactly what it says

[languid adder]

"diminished by a value APPROPRIATE"

that is not the case. X3

[timber furnace]

"Your reward bonuses are diminished by a value appropriate for the difference in Ascension Lvel and difficulty of the current anguish lvel"

[languid adder]

the reduction is far greater, to the point were unshackled is unrealistic

[pearl mango]

Wait

Why you wanna do unshackled anyways

Weirdo

[timber furnace]

I mean, the more als you have the more the reduction is, it's exactly what it says

[languid adder]

i dont, but, i dont get anything in return for my forfeited grind. So i dont see a reason in just forfeiting what i earned, for no return

[timber furnace]

Thats the reddit post?

Is self explanatory

[pearl mango]

At anguish 15 you have access to 66als

Currently

That seems fair

Honestly shackles might be the only thing i dont mind about this guild

[languid adder]

im glad you slowly get them back, but that still does not mean i get anything for the ALs i forfeit while i forfeit them. They just get deleted, there is absolutely nothing i get in return, i get the exact same things as a person who is at that AL without having more then me, and therefore, any hours i put into the game more then that, just get deleted for the time beeing, without me seeing anything for it.
Its a threat of punishment, there is no incentivise, and punishment should never be an incentivise in a video game, im here for fun, not for my 8 hour shift at the factory

i dont wanna play unshackled, but give me ANYTHING for forfeiting progression to appease to the difficulty curve.

[pearl mango]

You want it to be more rewarding when shackled?

[languid adder]

i want to have anything in return for forfeiting progress yes, i dont dont ask for mats, or stuff i can use to get stronger - i ask for cosmetics, or guild items (like the monaspects) that arent directly used to become stronger.
Anything,.

[timber furnace]

Well, anguish was supposed to be "equal" for all players, the only real bonus you have is that you can get to higher anguish lvels(more rewards) faster than people that don't have enough Als

[sinful vapor]

Every AL lost while shackled is 1 proof earned when completing an activity

😂

[languid adder]

Basically something to not just devaluate your veterans, cause you dont like they love your game this much.

[timber furnace]

Oh, I thought you wanted more rewards or power

[languid adder]

that would be the opposite of what ang 2,0 tries to do^^"

[pearl mango]

Ok i see now

[timber furnace]

X2

[pearl mango]

You just want free cosmetics

Bastard

🦛

[timber furnace]

Not something bad tbh

[languid adder]

nono, just... i grinded for this. I put effort into this, day after day, for 5 years. I dont wanna get demoted, and spit on, so i can MAYBE start using what is mine in a few months again. What kind of slavery mindset is this.

[timber furnace]

I thought he wanted more rewards

[sinful vapor]

I thought this was your suggestion

[pearl mango]

Bro said give me free cosmetics

[languid adder]

can you pls stop insulting me, it may was funny the first or second time, but its starting to get toxic.

[pearl mango]

Oh mb

[languid adder]

no thats not at all what i wrote

[languid adder]

thank you

[languid adder]

@sinful vapor

[sinful vapor]

Missed that

[timber furnace]

So it was sarcasm or you really want cosmetics for forfeiting your Als, instead of power of mats?

[nocturne night]

How do... cosmetic rewards work for a.. temporary thing?

[languid adder]

its endgame, so how about not devaluating your endgame progression for a couple hundred hours cause of "lol"

[sinful vapor]

Cosmetic currency

[nocturne night]

Like, you turn the shackles on, you get a cosmetic... and then what? You just unshackle?
And now we're back to square one where shackling gives you nothing

[timber furnace]

Yes thats another problem

[languid adder]

i want anything for my sacrifice if that makes sense

[sinful vapor]

Sacrificng als gives you proofs of ascensions

[pearl mango]

Maybe hes joking?

[sinful vapor]

Cosmetic proofs

[languid adder]

proofs of shackling could be a solution - make the skin packs available with them, or smaller things that you dont really would go out of your way for.

[pearl mango]

Hes not joking nvm

[pearl mango]

Faction reset?

[timber furnace]

In the way you were talking, I thought you just wanted more bonuses

[pearl mango]

For proofs of shackling?

[languid adder]

i dont understand why you react this way. Someone is talking about not wanting to feel partly devaluated as a veteran by a unwise designed mechanic that basically just exists to punish people who earned more power then odie found fitting. Dont really see a reason to be sarcastic or toxic about it?

[pearl mango]

As an example

[languid adder]

i mean, could be on the list of things

[pearl mango]

I mean when someone says they grindef for 5 years and they want COSMETICS instead of better rewards when shackled i cant see how i would think youre being 100% serious

[timber furnace]

I thought the same and im not joking, you should say that from the start

[languid adder]

because giving me real rewards would make me have an advantage over the people who just reached the power to tackle the content and people neiter want that or does Odie ever want that, cause it kinda defeats the fairness he tries to create

[languid adder]

okay fair point then. Sorry.
Im trying to say that, i dont want my progress to be devaluated without return, even if the return is not progression related, but fun - monaspects, maybe skins, etc... and once ppl get stronger, they can go back to lower levels to farm them too, its not a system that will only benefit strong players

[pearl mango]

So how will cosmetics help the issue if you dont mind me asking

[finite flint]

how about an AL guild

[pearl mango]

Maybe YOU will be happy with that

How about all the other veterans

[finite flint]

like you reach AL 100 in a class you get something and so on

[pearl mango]

Its not a realistic solution

[finite flint]

if AL Is worthless in actual content

reward it inherently

[timber furnace]

Proofs of shackles for cosmetics sounds great tbh

[languid adder]

thats why im not the only person who has this concern, most people just got satisfied or gave up by the +2 ALs per level.
And its also just how i think, and i think getting ANYTHING rn is better then getting nothing. If we create a currency for that stuff rn, we can always add rewards for it later.

[languid adder]

could you please elaborate?

[sinful vapor]

The issue is, would players with less ALs than the shackles gain proofs of shackling

[pearl mango]

Giving you cosmetics for something you achieved over the years or asking for it cuz you gave up on anything better is not a realistic solution its a matter of time before. You start thinking that its not fair to trade years of progress for mere skins

[timber furnace]

You can go back to lvel 5

[pearl mango]

And then were back to point.

0

[nocturne night]

ALs are still not worthless in Area Control, Kingdom Wars, and all Non-Anguished PvE content (which is still Actual Content, considering that Anguished Gear does nothing for you outside of Anguish)

[languid adder]

so allegiance rewards are not a good thing in your opinion either, because thats what they are

[sinful vapor]

Nah this isn't a good take. You're not literally giving up ALs, it's a voluntary and temporary suppression

[languid adder]

its fairer then to trade years of progression for nothing

but i get your point

[pearl mango]

They give actual good stuff tho

[languid adder]

i know odie does not like the idea, so im already going in with extremely low expectations

[pearl mango]

100% boost on shards

[sinful vapor]

If I voluntarily make the game harder on myself - I get a cool cosmetic

[pearl mango]

Memory hunt

[languid adder]

i always forget that, i mostly just see the skins

[nocturne night]

You pinged him with your brain

[finite flint]

it's coming

[pearl mango]

Also new specs

[timber furnace]

Jajaja

[sinful vapor]

Time to pitch my brand new idea: Ascension Dungeons. Endless deep dungeons where more ALs = more floors, and enemies have taken your ALs and you need to get them back

[languid adder]

i mean, shackles are designed in a way that unshackled currently is not fullfilling the "appropriate" part of diminshing returns IMO

[exotic jasper]

||discord light mode?||

[languid adder]

dint i just talk about that 2 weeks ago?

[sinful vapor]

Yeah we worked on it together

[finite flint]

yes I am a boomer

[languid adder]

i swear odie has a pinger that plays the "open_keep" sound every time someone mentions his name
Odie can you confirm this?

[paper void]

The “years of progression” are still useable on high anguish levels as of the last patch. Folks that are highly ascended also don’t need to worry about the ascension requirement per level - they’ve already hit them all

We’ve got to stop with this whole “all my progression is gone / odie thought we were too powerful” rhetoric - it’s clearly not gone and the rhetoric is just not going to push the feature forward

[finite flint]

wait odie we were discussing the proposal of mandating shackles from anguish1

[timber furnace]

That was my point, with less words

[languid adder]

okay. I fully understand what you mean.
But then, do you see it realistically, to give us ANYTHING for the disabled ALs in shackeling, especially if its not progression related. Something small, something fun?

[sinful vapor]

I just really disagree with the idea that hitting the AL requirement is something people "worry" about. If you're not strong enough to unlock the content, you're not concerned about making the content even harder

That requirement is basically pointless

[finite flint]

also the AL requirement can be hit AL ing other classes cheaply so

it's a non existent threshold basically

[timber furnace]

Noo, because the next lvel has more bonus, but also more maluses so you May be right

[paper void]

It can, but you are making things harder for yourself

Which I’m honestly okay with

[sinful vapor]

If someone doesn't have the ALs to unlock a new ang level, they're not grinding ALs to unlock it; they're grinding ALs to make the content easier

[paper void]

Egh, I think the synergy is important. We’ve wanted a reason to ascend for so long - some counterbalance

[languid adder]

Yeah you hit the requirements much easier, but you will also have a slightly harder time progressing through it. Its a choice, and both are equally viable.

[sinful vapor]

Reason to ascend = succeeding in Anguish

[nocturne night]

Fwiw, we were discussing the possibility of shackles from level 1 onward, due to the fact that currently sitting at anguish 4 and spamming raids in ~15 second fights is giving disproportionately high rewards, from some's point of view

[languid adder]

Or at least bring Shackles to a state that shackled and unshackled will be about the same rewards, as stated in the reddit post? (If i didnt misinterpret the word appropriately in there)

[sinful vapor]

We don't need an artificial requirement, ALs are inherently required

[paper void]

Sure, I’ll give you all the rewards you’re smashing out with little effort in non-anguish content 😎

[pearl mango]

Guys let me cook
Anguished gear gives 3% stats per level right

Make it that for every 50als you have you get an additional 1% ontop

[nocturne night]

Cooking license revoked

[languid adder]

That does not answer my question^^"

[pearl mango]

Maaaan

[finite flint]

create a tax of one dollar per AL

[pearl mango]

I tried my best

[paper void]

Maybe I should have caught up first

Away I go now

Like a leaf in the wind 🍃

[nocturne night]

Your coming here is still appreciated

[timber furnace]

Yes, because its true that with alts and try hard players(or addicts at that point) they could get a lot of rewards with low effort at anguish 4

[sinful vapor]

They mean a small (cosmetic?) reward for shackling, not unshackling

[pearl mango]

Cya odie

[sinful vapor]

Don't leaf us

[languid adder]

i think he understood it. It is not the first time i get a vague non-answer to asking a question.

[nocturne night]

The main two factors of being against Ang1 shackles are the previously mentioned "devaluing of ascensions" and some fear that class imbalance will just force people to play other classes, since they can't overpower class imbalance with ascensions anymore.

[trail radish]

Enjoy your weekend Odie 👋 We'll try to clean up in here while you're off doing Weekend Odie Things™

[languid adder]

So either its on purpose or im terrible in english

[nocturne night]

Not just a weekend.
It's a Weekend and Vacation

[languid adder]

how long :o

[next flame]

I thought the intention of AL was to ascend all the classes, and not to just full send into 1 class?

[timber furnace]

Thats true

[nocturne night]

Supposedly he's been on it for a while now.
Unfortunately, odie is really bad at not working during his vacation

[pearl mango]

I meaaaaaaaaaan i can see every class working for high anguish content sure some interact better with new anguish but its not like its impossible to olay high ang with any class

[languid adder]

it was, but it released without a cap so what it is right now was inevitable

[languid adder]

oh i didnt knew that

i mean cant dislike a man for loving his trade

[timber furnace]

Can someone ping the reason of why anguish shackles should start at lvel 1??

[languid adder]

Gonna try to keep me from writing, i can say "ill take a break" as often as i want im still gonna make notes and link articles into the meganet i create

[nocturne night]

Shackling starting at level one would disallow people bypassing difficulty with ascensions, effectively gaining free rewards for no effort.

[paper void]

We just need a sandbox for t8/t9 to make sure there is tier progression / some kind of entry point

imo, shackles coming to existence just when I hit t10 is awkward

[sinful vapor]

Should anguish just be mandatory shackles? Why/not?

[nocturne night]

Which is currently what is happening at Anguish 4 in all paths, but especially Agony currently

[paper void]

Ang 1-4 is the t8/t9 accessible space

[timber furnace]

T8 and t9 don't have als tbh

[nocturne night]

Is a shackle of Ascension 0 / 0 / 0 / 0 / 16 / 23 / (...) not possible?

Hence remaining t8 and 9 accessible

[pearl mango]

Most ppl high level in agony including myself just play shackled

[sinful vapor]

Wait why would it be awkward to have shackles only in t10

[paper void]

That’s what we thought, and is why anguish 2.0 was announced to be t10 only

Play data did not support this assumption

[nocturne night]

Funny you say that, I hear the exact opposite from the other camp, that the majority play unshackled

[sinful vapor]

How can t8/9 have ALs

[nocturne night]

I wonder if people might be biased one way or another

[timber furnace]

I'm pretty sure they're alts

[sinful vapor]

Is altar not t10 only

[pearl mango]

Yeah its this

[nocturne night]

I think odie meant Anguish Levels, not Ascension Levels

[timber furnace]

Oh

No it's not

I was talking about als

[pearl mango]

Agony is more rewarding the higher anguish you are and if yiu invest in anguish gear you can kinda solve efficiency problem

[timber furnace]

Oh, is a"nguish"lvels

[paper void]

It is, I just think folk will hate that so much more

[pearl mango]

Theres no need to stay lvl4

[languid adder]

EXP-Less i love you xD

[pearl mango]

I doubt many do that

[nocturne night]

Completely fair assessment, considering how angry some parties already are at shackles.

[paper void]

yes

[nocturne night]

There's hardly any winning here - no one choice will make everyone happy

[languid adder]

Would you say the majority is unhappy about shackles as a concept, that shackled takes the power with no return, or that unshackled reduces rewards too much? (Or something entirely else)

[nocturne night]

Something something dev's job disappoint everyone equally something something

[paper void]

No one ever wins in gamedev

[nocturne night]

Unfortunate consequence of both being ALs lol

[timber furnace]

Sorry for the ping, but the reason why the discussion started(again) is because goudine gave reason why anguish 2.0(Agony) can be exploited/abused, and many people though that the problem is that people can keep at anguish 4 and farm a lot of proofs more than people with shackles, or something like that.

[languid adder]

hey, a honest question unrelated to anguish... how do you even survive all our negativity sometimes?^^" I for sure know i could not.

[paper void]

Is there an exploit, or is it just the most popular path?

[pearl mango]

As someone who played the game for almost 2 years i personally think anguish in terms of difficulty=reward is perfect currently some stuff needs tweaking like gear passives not working and alk but beside that im really happy with what we have rn

[languid adder]

goudine said people alt cheese at anguish 4 and farm a lot of proofs at full power cause the rewards are "way too good"

[paper void]

skooma

[languid adder]

yeah that would also be my choice, fair. ^^"

[nocturne night]

TL;DR
(some) People can kill ANG4 raids in ~15 seconds with ascensions for ~7 proofs per kill.
This is the fastest method among all paths.
The cost exists, but is negligible due to accessibility of raids (Moondrops, ScrollAltFarming, T8 Jormungandr Scrolls being cheap, etc...)

[timber furnace]

Eh, both, but you can farm a lot of raids with alts and do then at anguish 4 with ease + alts

[pearl mango]

T8 jormungandr

[nocturne night]

The issue is obviously exacerbated the more ascensions one has in the pocket

[pearl mango]

Not t10

The t8 ones are the issue

[nocturne night]

I didn't specify the tier, but yes. The t8 one is very cheap.

[paper void]

So the solution is less proofs for off-tier raids?

[pearl mango]

I dont want odie making t10 even more expensive if you dont elaborate

[nocturne night]

That is definitely a proposed solution

[pearl mango]

Just make t8 jorms more expensive

Their the only cheese right now

[nocturne night]

But it is also a bit of a sad solution, because it takes away a fun dichtomy that scrolls currently have

Hitting a high tier raid means you get good drops from the rewards, but harder proofs

Hitting a low tier raid means you get easier proofs, but worse loot

[languid adder]

less rewards for the first 4 levels but same rewards for shackled levels could as be an option

[pearl mango]

I find the best sulotion is to make t8 jorms more expensive

[languid adder]

because at higher anguish, the tier difference will be much less present

[paper void]

More expensive? How are folk crafting them right now?

[timber furnace]

No please, they become difficult after some anguish lvels, although not as difficult as the strongest raids of course

[nocturne night]

They aren't, but part of the fear is that they will en masse

[pearl mango]

People are preparing to craft thousands of t8jorms to cheese levels

[timber furnace]

The problem is anguish, not the scrolls

[nocturne night]

T8 jorms cost 1 of each rune, and raids drop on average 6 or 13, depending on if World or Kingdom

[pearl mango]

I personally dont see it being Op

[languid adder]

when did people stop having fun?

[pearl mango]

Just an easier way to progress

But some ppl say its a huge issue

[languid adder]

dont see the issue personally...

[nocturne night]

There isn't exactly an easy solution here 😅

[pearl mango]

Which i dont believe its true

[languid adder]

everything has easier ways, cant balance everything.

[nocturne night]

If there were, we would likely have conjured something up from the ORN perspective

[timber furnace]

There was a person here that farmed a lot of proofs with raids staying at lvel 4

And planned on farming way more with T8 Jom

[languid adder]

do we really need one is the question, if there is maybe not even a problem

[pearl mango]

Whats the point tho overall hes getting way less proofs/raids ratio

[paper void]

Oh, I see. This does just defer the problem to the next cheap <T10 raid

[timber furnace]

He's not getting less proofs, he's getting more

Proofs don't decrease in party, and don't make then decrease even if is a solution

[pearl mango]

In general i dont see it being a huge issue or worry just easier way to hit up anguish just stating what some people talked about and made it seem like a huge issue

[nocturne night]

If it's not Jorms, it's Moondrops. If it's not moondrops, it's the christmas scrolls.

If it's none of them, it's just alt farming UWs

[pearl mango]

Moondrops have 3t10 raids and 3t9

[nocturne night]

Moondrops also have tiny health pools. You can one or two turn them at unshackled ANG4

[raven bane]

I think its okay for events to be a good source for a particular content, if anything t8 jorms are more time consuming. Than things like moon drops

[pearl mango]

I mean does that rly need fixing tho

[timber furnace]

The problem is people playing with 200 als against raids at anguish 4 being able to win more proofs because is not "difficult", imo

[nocturne night]

That is what is being discussed

[pearl mango]

Moondrops allways been that way they just happened to interact well in terms of rewarding and efficiency with anguish

No need to change it when its not rly OP

[timber furnace]

Then the problem aren't the moondrops

[harsh geyser]

I think there's a solid argument for decreasing T8/T9 (from a T10 perspective) raid rewards, just as the other paths reduce (to zero) the rewards of lower-tier content.

And of course, forced shackling would be great but I don't know if that's on the table at all. The rewards would make a lot more sense if the fights took more than like 2-3 turns.

[languid adder]

also speaking of high AL doing raids at 4 - why not higher at unshackled. Rewards dont drop lower then 4 anymore

[pearl mango]

Moondrops are t10 for half the raids

Problem still not solved

[nocturne night]

Why go to ANG5 for 0.1% more proofs and 20% more raid health?

[pearl mango]

Which i dont think is even a problem

[timber furnace]

Let's revert that change , solved

[raven bane]

Just remove events

[pearl mango]

Why go anguish 4 when you can go 10 and 15 and 20

[languid adder]

that would make the issue presented even more present tho X3

[nocturne night]

Because then raids take minutes rather than seconds

[pearl mango]

They dont lol

And they give more proofs

[languid adder]

that just nets back for shackles capping at too much reduction X3

[pearl mango]

Raids=proofs ratio higher anguish raids allways better

Why do 5raids at anguish 4 when you can do 1 raid at anguish 30

And get same proofs

[somber nymph]

A huge benefit of Anguish 2.0 is giving value to lower tier raids, and encouraging normal summoning scroll spawns for players that are already highly invested. Removing or heavily nerfing proofs from off-tier raids would damage this

[nocturne night]

Does an anguish 30 raid drop 28 proofs on average?

[languid adder]

and also honestly if you care this much to have 50 characters to cheese it and want to forfeit your entire life for it, then just do it. As long as alting isnt combatted, i disagree with balancing around it

[timber furnace]

They do, you do then in 60 seconds or what? And if you use spiked shield, we just need to nerf that thing

[pearl mango]

Anguish 15raid for me drops from 12-17 on average

[somber nymph]

I think it might actually be somewhere in that ballpark

[nocturne night]

Huh neat

[languid adder]

nah, not with current reward scaling X3

[somber nymph]

Oh, you have numbers?

[pearl mango]

Not 60secs for sure more also

Any class can do that

Just invest in a good build

Easy solve

[timber furnace]

Realmstrikes is my build

Crit receives a huge nerf with anguish maluses(in higher lvels of course)

[somber nymph]

I have from Abyss that he was getting an average of 18 proofs per raid at anguish 20

[pearl mango]

Spiked shield allways been and would be the most gear requiring build for raiding so thats why we who invested alot in it arent facing as many issues as a heretic who rocks a quickcast squishy build

[languid adder]

before or after reward nerf

[somber nymph]

After

[languid adder]

:o

[timber furnace]

Wasn't the max 26?

And the average 20?

[somber nymph]

I couldn't tell you lol. I just have the number he told me to prove there was a "big" nerf 😆

[languid adder]

im gonna try the ang 4 thing now and see if its really "that" good. I dont think it will

[pearl mango]

Its rly not

I woudlve done it

If it was

[timber furnace]

It is with alts

[somber nymph]

The anguish 4 thing only makes sense if you have thousands of scrolls you farm with alt/alt kingdoms regularly

[pearl mango]

Then thats an alt abusers issue

Completely different story

Also wait

[timber furnace]

That can be avoided with shackles

[pearl mango]

Doesnt proofs gets spread

[timber furnace]

No

[pearl mango]

Across how many ppl doign the raid

[nocturne night]

They do. But the alts don't have to join the raid

Just get the alts to 4 and then they can stop joining

[timber furnace]

Eh? They do?

[pearl mango]

Thats just a bug then

[nocturne night]

huh?

[timber furnace]

No no, they dont get proofs without joining the raid

[pearl mango]

Alts getting the proofs they should get by soloing a raid despite not joining it just because they summoneed the raid?

[sinful vapor]

What?

[nocturne night]

No, the alts get no proofs. They don't need proofs. your main needs proofs

[pearl mango]

Thats what john said just now no?

[somber nymph]

You don't care about the proofs on the alt. You get the alt to Agony level 4 and you stop using it for anything other than summoning raids and farming more scrolls

[pearl mango]

Oh you meant farming scrolls with alts and summoning them anguished for main

[timber furnace]

I thought the proofs didn't spread, without info, I feel dirty

[nocturne night]

yes.

[sinful vapor]

Hey. What if content was less rewarding for players joining someone else's activity

Kill someone else's raid? Less rewarding

[timber furnace]

Alts are different than party play

[sinful vapor]

Join someone else in a party dungeon? Less rewarding

[pearl mango]

That doesnt sound good discourage party play if not destroy it

[somber nymph]

This kills trading and party play

[timber furnace]

That would also affect party play

[sinful vapor]

Yeah... I wouldn't say kill it

[pearl mango]

At that point just make the game solo

[sinful vapor]

But hurts it for sure

[somber nymph]

Party play is already inconvenient, making it have decreased rewards would certainly kill it

[pearl mango]

Its the alt play thats rewarding

Party play never been the issue

[sinful vapor]

Just brainstorming ways to dscourage the alt play

[pearl mango]

Make emulators and cloning apps against tos

[nocturne night]

Plenty of alt players have multiple phones lol

[sinful vapor]

Not every idea's gonna hit but also, there's some merit to the idea that if you're pulling the dungeon, you should get more rewards than others

[nocturne night]

Emulators are already against tos, too

[pearl mango]

Oh wait i forgot this is orna cord

Mb

[timber furnace]

Theres people tryhard enough(and not poor enough )to buy a second phone

[nocturne night]

There's also people who just so happen to already have a second phone lying around because they upgraded their old phone into a new phone, and just... didn't get rid of their old phone?

[somber nymph]

The problem always is that the game doesn't have any way of knowing the difference between a group of players and a group of one player and their alts

[nocturne night]

You don't need a SIM card to play orna after all

[pearl mango]

What im seeing from this the issue can never be solved

[timber furnace]

Oh, the "poor enough" is me

[pearl mango]

Alt users will allways burst through content

And theres no guranteed way to stop them

[timber furnace]

Umm

[somber nymph]

I would rather let some alt abuse happen and let real players enjoy the content than nerf the content for everyone so that real players suffer

[harsh geyser]

There's already a fairly recent discussion thread on this 🤷‍♂️ if y'all want to focus on the topic beyond how people use alts for free resources on the main.
https://discordapp.com/channels/448527960056791051/1368128638939303957

[pearl mango]

I agree with this

Either a solution to only punish alt play

Or dont do it at all

[somber nymph]

My issue with Goudine's suggestion is that it primarily harms real players in a quest to stop the alt players

[timber furnace]

Yes

So shackles from lvel 1 dont reduce the "speed" of that abuse?

[harsh geyser]

Agreed.

Require unique hw info (can be spoofed, can purchase a second device) and require unique e-mail logins (requires more effort setting up a second login) for each character in a party together. And lastly, the studio should come out and say "we don't appreciate multiboxing".

That leaves the possibility for people to still abuse it without really affecting anyone else; and would cut alt abuse cases by a large margin.

[somber nymph]

Ie, nerfing low tier raids because people with alt kingdoms can abuse T8 Jorm sounds crazy to me.

[sinful vapor]

Oh hold up. What if...

Rewards from party play were based on uh... how much solo play you did?... hmm

Basically a way to see an alt being solely a party play mule

[timber furnace]

The main gets everything

[sinful vapor]

Yeah I mean decrease rewards from the whole dungeon

[harsh geyser]

T8/9 raids should be nerfed because they're not as difficult as T10 raids.
And if that's not true for raids, why is that the case for mobs/bosses in the other three paths? 😅

That's the strongest argument for lowering off-tier rewards. That it also helps (somewhat) address the easy agony doom scenario is a bonus.

[sinful vapor]

For raids it'd be weird idk

[nocturne night]

Level 1 shackles means people can't raid with their ascensions, and the difficulty is always there.
If high anguish raiding is profitable all the same, that means that having a bajillion scrolls isn't nearly as useful anymore, as the main limiter is kill speed.
And if the main limiter is kill speed, then the later shackles start being more beneficial as well.

[sinful vapor]

Agree with this - I think it makes perfect sense for lower tier raids to give less proofs

They are easier

It doesn't have to be a ton less proofs, but less proofs

[pearl mango]

Some t9 raids are harder than t10

Balin as an example

Trev

[timber furnace]

Umm, no

Balin is easy

[somber nymph]

Trev is easy if you don't just AFK it 😆

[harsh geyser]

Some T9 bosses (immortal lord) are harder than T10 bosses (anubis) 🤷‍♂️

[nocturne night]

Eh, Immortal Lord is harder than arisen hydra, yet imm lord gives 0 proofs

[pearl mango]

Anguish 15balin hitting me for 130k

[somber nymph]

Is that from parry?

[timber furnace]

Dodge || or use forbid ||

[pearl mango]

You have 1 example we have multiple

🦛

[timber furnace]

Jajaja

[sinful vapor]

Specific discrepancies will always exist, that shouldn't change the default

[nocturne night]

Arisen Carman is harder than Fallen Nekromancer

[pearl mango]

???

[nocturne night]

Clearly you haven't been Despaired

[pearl mango]

Lol

[somber nymph]

In general I can agree they should give some amount fewer proofs while still granting proofs.

My argument about the insanity was saying it was because you can craft T8 Jorm scrolls

[sinful vapor]

Why are we debating which t9 monsters are harder than t10, pls

[pearl mango]

Their comparing raids to mobs

[sinful vapor]

I know

[pearl mango]

Is whats making me giggle

[sinful vapor]

It's pointless

[nocturne night]

Since when is carman a raid lmfao

[timber furnace]

Nono

He's right, read again

[pearl mango]

Your comparing mobs not giving proofs cuz their t9 when you onetap most of them when raids take hella time and even more at high anguish

Very bad comparison sir

[nocturne night]

Ah that's what you mean

[sinful vapor]

Anyway - I think a small decrease in proofs based on raid tier is a very fair, common-sense approach

[nocturne night]

I'm tired 😅

[timber furnace]

Now youre wrong

[somber nymph]

Yeah, a decrease, not total removal, of proofs for lower tier raids would make sense

[pearl mango]

How much of a decrease tho

When i use 200normal scrolls

[sinful vapor]

Idk I'm not the dev

I don't have data

[pearl mango]

I get 30-40 t10 raids

Look how much im loosing

[sinful vapor]

Not our job to demand any specific amount

[nocturne night]

Can always shift the proofs

Grab the ones from low tiers

Put them in tier 10s

[sinful vapor]

Slightly higher at t10? Yea

[nocturne night]

Slightly exacerbates how good moondrops are

[sinful vapor]

I think that would also be fair but idk what the rates currently are

If the rates are already fair for t10, just lower t9/8

[timber furnace]

Alt abusers still can clear those raids(with less rewards of course) in seconds if they stay at anguish 4, they still get a lot of proofs

[sinful vapor]

It'd still be better. We can't fix everything at once

[pearl mango]

At anguish 15 i get 12-16proofs on average i do get 7/6 proofs every now and then and sometimes i get 25

[timber furnace]

My idea was both , shackles should start at lvel 1

[pearl mango]

Proof amount is completely balanced

With lower tier raids giving the same

It takes 150-200raids from ang15to level up once rn

🦛

[sinful vapor]

And why does that matter

[pearl mango]

Why is he suggesting lower tier raids getting nerfed again

Thats why it matters

[tacit ridge]

There are so many raids under t10 that are so much stronger than many t10 ones. Making those useless again just makes the whole path feel crappy again, and throws people back into the mindnumbingness of dungeon spam

[sinful vapor]

Why does the number of raids it takes to get to a specific level matter

[tacit ridge]

Normal scrolls are finally exciting again

[languid adder]

Exactly!!! You cant fix the problem, but you can vastly reduce it.
If even the studio comes forward saying "no, we dont like this" more openly, and the majority of the playerbase doesnt like it, its cool you have everything in 200% and youre AL500 in every class, have hit anguish 300 and own 50k territorys, still, we wont respect that, not will we celebrate that.

[nocturne night]

I'll have to agree with Bordoadas on this one. The Agony path freshened out a lot of content that was simply not attractive to engage with for a long time

[somber nymph]

Anguish 2.0 intentionally achieves quite a few goals that make some players very upset that it achieved including

• Makes difficult content
• Makes normal scrolls interesting again

[timber furnace]

Dont reduce the proofs even if its "logical", make shackles start at lvel 1, reduce the speed

[sinful vapor]

I'm all for scrolls mattering, I think a small rebalancing based on raid tier is just correct

[languid adder]

Im still confused why any of those two could be a problem

[somber nymph]

Well another goal was:

• creates PvE content that can't just be overcome with Ascension brute force
  lol

[timber furnace]

Anguish 4 does that

[somber nymph]

I mean beyond 4

[timber furnace]

Nvm is the opposite

[timber furnace]

Yes

[languid adder]

I mean... can it really be overcome?

Shackles are a great concept!
Just not the iteration

[somber nymph]

That's the challenge isn't it? If that wasn't a question then I personally would consider Anguish 2.0 failed

[sinful vapor]

The only argument I've heard for not making proof gain match tier is "well it feels nice to have lower tier raids matter"

Which is fair but they'll still matter

[somber nymph]

There exists a level for each path where you start having to ask "is this even possible?" and the puzzle is figuring out the answer to that question.

[languid adder]

Yeah its nice having content that is not relevant for you anymore and that clumps up your scrolls and basically thirds your outcome now beeing relevant again
Thats probably the biggest win anguish 2.0 gave us

[timber furnace]

Youre ignoring the fact that 200 Als players can still kill raids with ease and get rewards(Anguish 4), I dont think the problem are the lower tier raids

[pearl mango]

Thats like saying
Lets just make shackles like they were on release cuz why not

[somber nymph]

I liked shackles better on release but I'm in the minority

[pearl mango]

Theres no reason to make lower tier raids give less

You just want it to

[languid adder]

Does that mean the part that unshackled 5 gave less rewards then unshackled 4 or do you mean something else?

[pearl mango]

At the end im just speaking for the ppl who will have to grind double the raids i did if what you guys suggesting ever happens

[somber nymph]

The part where shackles were brutal and limited you to only 60something AL at anguish 25

[pearl mango]

Im already high enough in agony

Couldn't care less

[languid adder]

Especially since at higher levels they will become difficult enough

[languid adder]

Would not be a Problem if you got anything for shackling / forfeited ALs which, as said early, is clearly not in interest

[timber furnace]

Thats also a good point

[sinful vapor]

They are on average easier

There is no reason for them to give the same proofs as t10 raids

[somber nymph]

Which is also why I was initially in favor of shackles starting at Anguish 1

[sinful vapor]

You just want them to

[pearl mango]

So were just going in circles

[timber furnace]

They become difficult at a certain point tbh

[pearl mango]

Youre not making a point where lower trier raids are a big enough issue to where balancing them is mandatory

[languid adder]

Which wouldnt have fixed the issue at all

And just made the middle finger to veterans bigger

Its now small enough so most people overlook it or dont care

[pearl mango]

Wow i take 20%less time doing a t9 raid

How op

[sinful vapor]

20% less proofs

[somber nymph]

It would've created a very clear dividing line between "This is anguish, where AL matters less" and "this is the rest of the game, where AL still matters"

[sinful vapor]

How horrendous of a nerf

[pearl mango]

Ok i take 5mins doing an ang15 morri give me 500proofs

[sinful vapor]

You're the one bringing time spent into it lol

[languid adder]

Arisen trevelyan joined the conversation
Have fun spending 50% of raid to eat spoiled grandma confections and lose all your temp buffs

[somber nymph]

Instead we have 4 anguish levels where you get your full ALs, and then a sudden brick wall where you don't

[pearl mango]

Trev have 9million base hp

Isnt that um

Way higher than some t10raids

[languid adder]

And devaluating the effort of higher players without return even harder, stating an even bigger middle finger to the veteran community

[pearl mango]

That is the subject thp

Easier=less time spent

[sinful vapor]

I'm not ignoring it, I'm not saying this is a fix for everything. It's just something that makes sense to me

[languid adder]

Yes and the debuff Spam is also insane

[sinful vapor]

We can't quantify and stratify rewards for each individual raid based on time spent. We CAN based on tier

[timber furnace]

The return as odie stated, is that you can advance in anguish more faster(you already have the als)

[timber furnace]

It doesnt fix anything tbh, while affecting normal players that use shackles

[somber nymph]

Anguish 2.0 did not delete the rest of the game.

But I'm not arguing about this again, I despise this thread and being here genuinely makes me have less fun playing Orna.

[timber furnace]

Imagine Odie jajaja

[languid adder]

Also correct, but is endgame content, and should factor endgame investments more respectfully.

And yes, i understand that, anguish 2.0 is also making me having less fun playing orna in its current iteration, so both kinda have a similar issue, just on the other ends of the spectrum^^

[somber nymph]

Anguish 2.0 is not making me have less fun, I'm having great fun playing Anguish 2.0

It's the discussions

[nocturne night]

Shhh it's okay. You can leave now.

[pearl mango]

have yall considered that doing most t10+ raids like super raids ammori etc isnt even possible for most ppl at a certain anguish level

[timber furnace]

Honestly I dont like at all that shackles dont start at anguish 1, that some people dont like it because it ignores their previous effort, and that now some people dont like the cheese(which makes sense), and want to reduce the proofs of lower tier raids(doesnt make sense)

[languid adder]

i know. 🫂 And i dont blame you at all

just feel i gotten done dirty as a veteran thats all. hope it will get addressed.

[pearl mango]

T9 raid btw chat

So easyy

This should give less proofs fr

[timber furnace]

The Real anguish is in the thread rather that in the game

[somber nymph]

Always has been since Patreon beta started

[languid adder]

petition to rename this thread "path of discord"

there

[pearl mango]

I choose baguette

[languid adder]

thats fair, it is the decadent eggplant after all

[sinful vapor]

Less proofs than the t10 raids that have twice that much hp at ang0? Yes

[timber furnace]

That can be added between ()

[pearl mango]

Nope

Most t10raids have same/less hp

[sinful vapor]

👍

At ang 0...

[pearl mango]

Starting from balin

Finesse

At ang15

[languid adder]

god the banana at 2am hits so hard

[pearl mango]

They have same hp

If not lower

[timber furnace]

Go to sleep

[sinful vapor]

Let's give proofs based on hp then

[languid adder]

That seems more reasonable but still like a lot of work for a very minor issue

[sinful vapor]

Congrats problem solved, now I'd like to get off this hill

[languid adder]

BUt its much more fesable

[pearl mango]

Nerf t10 raids too easy

[sinful vapor]

Now do Amorri

[timber furnace]

HP is not the same as difficulty(not a valid argument imo), but I still dont like the idea of less proofs for lower tier raids

[pearl mango]

Level 300

[trail radish]

Lover, I would appreciate it if you stopped with the heavy-handed sarcasm.

[pearl mango]

Not t0

[sinful vapor]

Let's do proofs based on level then

How many more arguments are you gonna make

[timber furnace]

Lets stop, everyone has made their point

[pearl mango]

Aight aight

[nocturne night]

This tbh.
People aren't going to be convincing each other of anything

[pearl mango]

Isnt that just based on tier

[nocturne night]

Opinions aren't going to change, we're just going in circles

[languid adder]

of anguish

[timber furnace]

Yep

[nocturne night]

People have said their piece, and that's.. kind of that

[sinful vapor]

I think the only reasonable differentiation is tier but it doesn't matter that much

I gave my opinion, that's that

[languid adder]

i feel terrible for ruining the seriousness but also it was too free to pass

X3

and im still laughing

[sinful vapor]

Breaking up seriousness is often the best course of action

[pearl mango]

🦛 can we all just post memes and lock this channel until tommorow

[timber furnace]

Na, the thread is better with things like that

[languid adder]

thats why my humor has no limits.
Just respect the person you talk to

[nocturne night]

🚨 Warning: Tomorrow has been postponed until 2028! 🚨

[languid adder]

oh god

[pearl mango]

Make anguish 3.0 already so ppl can argue in different threads

[nocturne night]

Congrats on this god awful achievement though

[timber furnace]

Jajajaja

[nocturne night]

Really represents the feeling of being in here

[timber furnace]

Did we beat the gilgamesh balance thread?

[nocturne night]

Uh yeah, by like, more than triple?

[languid adder]

at least noone will ever say that the ORN doesnt do enough after this

[nocturne night]

Uh I'm ORN

[languid adder]

i know but youre orn and mod

thats why i mentioned it extra

one for the ORN duty, one for mod ^^

[nocturne night]

Being a mod doesn't change anything in this specific circumstance though

unmention it.

Or else

[languid adder]

I mean, thats fair.

okay fine xD

[pearl mango]

If i yapped in that thread

Youd never beaat it

[languid adder]

is any mod not ORN?
Because then i get what you ment

[nocturne night]

Waifu Stack and Hood

[languid adder]

Thank you ^^ I think i understand

[wanton raft]

I don't want to tag Odie so I will just link to the comment.

#1377194080718553150 message

Part of the problem is feeling like we have to re-earn the AL's that were already extremely time consuming to get in the first place. So time consuming that most players don't even want to try. But making the players who did put in the effort, have to earn the privilege of getting access to them again is extremely frustrating and drains so much fun from playing Orna.

[languid adder]

I was talking earlier about getting anything in return for forfeiting AL directly. I'll link you that point

[wanton raft]

I saw it : )

[languid adder]

#1377194080718553150 message

I scrolled all the way up there, on phone and without search function so im gonna post it anyway.

[wanton raft]

I have 150 AL's. Which is roughly enough to be AL 100 in 3 classes. I would happily accept an AL cap of 100 because I understand the infinite nature of AL's is an issue.

But I cannot stress enough that I completely despise shackles. I want my character to be my character and not be worrying about when my progress is turned off or on. (I accept PVP is different and needs its own rules.)

[languid adder]

Shackles were designed so we cant just cheese difficulty with power - but they dont respect or make up for the loss in power.
Also unshackled rewards are so bad that turning them off is basically a cosmetic option.

Do you dislike the fact you lose power, or do you dislike the fact you dont get rewarded for taking the nerf?

[wanton raft]

For me personally I dislike the entire concept. For me my AL's are the same as being level 250. I started playing after AL's were created. I have never known Orna without it. I don't want to have to do content as a tier 5 character either.

But I would find the system reasonable if there was at least a way for me to increase the difficulty and be rewarded for the increase in difficulty. Something like 1% proof drop rate per level and I would be happy so shackles can exist for the players who like it. I should want a progression path for high ascended players where the effort feels like its still there.

[languid adder]

I enjoy the idea.
Reddit post originally stated unshackled should reduce the rewards appropriately, which isnt the case right now.
Would you be happier if you would take the same time leveling up anguish unshackled as shackled?

[wanton raft]

For me its less about the time to progress and more about wanting to be rewarded for increasing the challenge. Feeling like its optimal to do stuff at Anguish 4 just isn't particularly fun. Towers are definitely my favorite content if that helps.

[languid adder]

So we are exactly having the same pain point, thats what i wanted to find out. Thank you!

[wanton raft]

np man

[languid adder]

Also yeah, towers are extremely fun beeing slightly more difficult per level, its a nice and fun increase, until the shackles hit and it just goes downhill instantly

[wanton raft]

I am a grinder at heart

[languid adder]

Just at 4, its a severe downgrade. You either lose an insane amount of power for a minimal increase in rewards, or you get a so minimal increase that it doesnt even outweight the increase in power the enemys get.
Shackles are just broken.
And since its just us veterans who are affected, there is not enough voice of reason...

Its a very difficult situation.

Same as you, i would love a greater challenge, if the challenge rewards me for taking it. The more you grinded before this content released, the more you get punished and the more you lose for a so minimal payment (beeing not having to care about ascension requirements) that i cant see a sense behind it.

I am basically just grinding at 4 until i hit a level where i can use so much ALs that the reward nerfs are reasonable. Right now, the cap of them is WAY too aggressive.

[wanton raft]

pushing the edge of maxing anguish for tower runs was my favorite thing in the game.

I have a feeling I would be totally fine with this current anguish once i get my Anguish level high enough but its just not a journey thats feeling fun atm.

[raven bane]

I think the current shackles scaling is pretty pallateable despite not liking shackles as a concept. But I think the reason it rubs very high ascended players wrong is because there is a point where shackles are less bad. If you are AL 75 you never see the full shack reduction, if you're AL 200 you have the full reduction for more than 20 levels.

[wanton raft]

yeah part of the frustration is certainly that I consolidated my AL's when anguish 2.0 was announced and wanted to focus one class so I could try to engage with the hardest possible content.

But whats actually happening is that the additional work spent grinding AL's and money spent on HoC actually hurts me and slows my ability to get the a level where i get full access to rewards.

[languid adder]

You both hit the nail on the coffin, yes.

Reduction cap is too aggressive

What is it right now, 95%?

[paper void]

The issue with inverting the shackle to a bonus for shackling is that it punishes low AL folk (given they don’t have the opportunity to even shackle). It means high AL get an additional reward loop that new players coming into Anguish will never have access to - rich get richer, etc

[languid adder]

But also, what is worse?

Punishing low AL player for a grind they didnt do, or punishing high AL players for a grind they did do?

(fixed wording, should learn english more)

[paper void]

The former would be a balance issue by nature, while the latter wouldn’t (as everyone has equal opportunity per Ang level)

So I would assert the former to be more fair to the playerbase at large

[wanton raft]

I am all for catch up mechanics for the new people. I am not complaining at all that new people don't have to do the BoF grind for the specs. I hated doing that.

But I also think the game is super fun as an early tier 10 tier 11. There is so much to do.

I am all for doing things to assist the next wave of gamers. I am cool with raising the shackled rewards for those that do it. I am for capping AL's. I just want to play with the benefits of the effort i put in. And feel like i get a benefit for increasing the difficulty. The current system genuinely makes me want to not play and that sucks. I don't want to be that guy. For the most part Orna is a love letter that I would read over and over. This anguish system is just a really hard pill to swallow and I don't know what to do.

[languid adder]

I do see it the exact opposite way.
There is no punishment for not rewarding effort that was'nt made.

I only see a punishment in the current iteration.

Someone who spent 10 times the amount of times should not get reduced down to the person that only spend a tenth of the time he did, that is not fair.

[languid adder]

I... i dont know what to say. Just thank you x.x

[wanton raft]

I get you dude : )

[paper void]

That’s all fair and valid, as we’ve discussed.

I don’t think we’ve seen a suggestion that really accommodates the high AL respect piece while also accomplishing the full goal of shackles for a healthy future, but I’m sure it’ll come

[paper void]

I’m not sure you followed what my comments were about - they’re strictly about inverting shackles from malus to bonus

It’s not regarding effort that wasn’t made, it’s about acknowledging when the reward loop can’t be attained

[languid adder]

With effort that wasnt made, i tried to refer that you cannot punish people for taking away/ not rewarding them extra for something they never had in the first place.

[languid adder]

So would you be happy if shackles reached a state where shackled and unshackled will net a very similar ratio of reward, aka a less brutal reduction of unshackled that is making unshackled play on pair.

Example, i will take 10 hours shackled or unshackled, to up my anguish from level X to Y?

[wanton raft]

I know its starting the weekend and I appreciate your engagement on this. I know you genuinely care about the community and I know you will do whats best for your game. I respect that. I selfishly hope thats a future that includes me playing because I love your vision.

This is just such an awful feeling right now. And I don't want to be dramatic but I feel making sure the degree is expressed...I have never felt this disrespected by any game I have ever played. I hate saying it because I like you more than any developer I have talked to. So I just hope a good compromise/solution is found in the near future because I hate feeling this way about Orna.

And I hope even though I had harsh things to say that it comes in the context of just wanting a fantastic future Orna.

Enjoy your weekend Odie and thanks again for your time.

[paper void]

No, I wouldn’t be happy if there was parity. I would rather shackles not exist if they were just going to be similar rewards.

I don’t really consider the penalty brutal as-is. Knowing the average AL of the players entering Anguish 2.0 is 40 AL, the highest shackle penalty the average player will see is 30% (then lessened each Ang level)

[languid adder]

But that is considering the average player - what about the players that play the most, that put in their soul into the game?
Why should they suffer a much harsher drawback?

The issue im and most veterans are facing is an issue that just we will face, and none of the newer players who progress freshly from basically AL 0 with anguish 2.0 will ever face.

As omnus said perfectly, i hate saying all this. I hate arguing about this with you, because i direly respect you, and i would not have this much respect for any other developer. Because you are by far the best one i have ever seen, and there is nothing but respect in my heart for you. But this decision just infuriates me, because it is punishing the part of the community who love your creation the most, and put a vastly disproportionate amount of time in it, for loving it, in the fear of beeing unfair towards the people that will never face those issues.

And i... just cannot understand why we have to suffer for the balance, just because we are the minority.

[wanton raft]

I think saying we love it the most probably isn't fair. Lots of lower AL players love the game a lot. But i get your frustration.

[paper void]

Just to ensure you’ve read past discussion: what is your understanding behind the need for shackles?

[vital swift]

Not really feedback, but how many raids would level 26 be?

Because 80-100 gets you to level 3-4, more or less

And the requirements only go up, although you also earn more proofs as you level up the path, but yeah

[paper void]

a lot

[mystic rose]

It was a lot

[vital swift]

Mind giving an approximation, if you happen to know it?

Just curious

[languid adder]

The need for shackles, according to my knowledge, is to make it so the concent can be balanced - that we all fight at the same power, so we dont cheese the difficulty and its added for nothing, aka we cannot outdifficulty the difficulty with invested time.

Because what would be the content if we oneshot it anyway, no difficulty in the difficulty guild.

[paper void]

Yes, essentially.

So, imo, there is no “punishment” for high AL. You have the choice to complete content at the intended reward-for-difficulty ratio, or skew it to be easier, to which you should be rewarded appropriately for less effort

[mystic rose]

Well over 1k? I can't say I've been keeping track though

[vital swift]

I see

[short osprey]

From watching (and slightly participating in) this thread since it started, I feel that Ang2.0 is an amazing system from the ground up, but the biggest issue and people's (including my own) is when you jump into it as an already hyper end game player with ALs in the 90+ range, granted there is not a massive number of us but there is enough to notice and cause slight concern I feel

I feel a cap to how much you can lose per Ang level would help a lot and really help crazy high AL players reach where they're supposed to be at a better rate. I understand it'll get better as I get closer but that's a longggg road when you're AL90+

For example right now for melancholy 4 -> 5, shackled I gain 1.5% proof, unshackled I gain 0.08%, that's a 95% loss, if there was a cap of 30/40/50% etc on the loss it would feel significantly better

[fierce cedar]

wow

do you want an apology?

your AL still are there on your account too, you can go as fast as you always could. just increasing AL will require a diff strategy

[languid adder]

Okay, that i understand. I also like the idea itself, and i get why its there.

The part that is making me unhappy about it is that shackling away power is forfeiting investment into the game, and you dont get anything for that sacrifice, essentially getting the exact same reward as someone who never invested this time for the first place.
And you are not just doing that for a couple of hours, you are doing it longer the longer you invested time before anguish 2.0 - in my case with ascension 100, multiple hundreds of hours. Something that you earned fair and square gets locked out when you play the guild as intended, without getting anything in return for it.

I dont see why we should not be rewarded for it - why we should take so unbelievably long to reach the content level designed for us.

If someone does progress WITH the guild, they wont ever have or feel this issue, but people who are stronger then intended now will have to work the same time, while part of their rewards get stripped of them for a very long time, for no payback. (Not caring about needing ascension levels to progress is extremely minimal, i dont count it for that).

And what i am seeing is that veterans will therefore have a more unfun experience, because they will get reduced down to the level of the content, without seeing any compensation for their previous investment, in PvE content, that always respected ascensions fully before Anguish 2.0 released.

[languid adder]

That was not my concern, and is unrelated to what i said in general. And it completely overlooks the issue i was talking about, talking about something else.

[fierce cedar]

since we're arguing whether or not Orna needs to obey capitalism market economy of efforts (alto imo Odie definitely a proof of stake stan), can we add trading post too?

didnt we reconcile this exact sentiment in this thread?

srsly, de ja vu

ill see myself out

[bronze oar]

How much of a discount does anguish gear get when master/demon forging compared to non anguished gear?

[languid adder]

I dont understand at all where you are coming from. That not at all sounds like an argument to what i said.

[timber furnace]

75%

[plush nimbus]

If you jump into dungoens path, you won't need that much time to reach the point you ll play with your current AL, imho

[short osprey]

As someone who does not just spam tons of dungeons, it's a lot imo, but I understand some people go crazy with dungeons so my view for melancholy might be a little swayed

[plush nimbus]

I also think if you don't want to invest into some content then you don't have to except ⬆️⬆️⬆️ rewards from it. We re talking about like 1.7k dungeon to reach anguish 20, wich mean already nearly same proof/dungeons as anguish 50 on ang 1 (may be slightly wrong I don't have access to my guild currently)

But it's just my opinion, for this particular path

[pearl mango]

Melanchy is a heavy grind tbh

1.7k dgs for ang20 might not sound like alot for some but some ppl have 5k dgs done since they started playing

Its cool tho i aint complaining just saying

[plush nimbus]

Then they most likely don't need to run those 2k to reach a point they will get decent rewards

Or they just like more other paths maybe

[pearl mango]

I personally do dgs exclusively during event times i enjoy other paths more

[plush nimbus]

Or they AL more than what may be with grind

Yes, that's fine, then you ll get most of your progress from other path

[sinful vapor]

If rewards were based around a set AL instead of the player's AL, you could both reward difficulty and not punish anyone disproportionately. This could be accomplished via an AL slider bar. If you are low AL, you'd be receiving more rewards than someone at the "default" AL; or you could lessen shackles to get less rewards and more ALs

[plush nimbus]

If you don't plan on doing more dungeon you can't expect much rewards from it, I think it's quite fair but idk

[pearl mango]

That just shows how busted old ang was tbh

You could get ang50and run it on any content

High benefits for way less effort

[plush nimbus]

Well not completely true

But on dungeons at some point, with most classes, yes it was not that challenging

And I m fine seing more challenge on this path

It's new and fun for now

[pearl mango]

Yea its more fun now

I like we have different paths

[paper void]

Yes, slider is likely currently the most common suggestion

[languid adder]

Its not a reward issue for me, its a compensation one. My grind gets temporarely deleted, but there is no trade, just sacrifice. Thats no fun

[sinful vapor]

What are your thoughts on that?

Does it seem feasible?

Not technically, but will it have the desired outcome

[languid adder]

I deleted a message cause i thought i replied to the wrong person but the message was 20 mins old
Brain Turns off, its 4:35AM x.x

[pearl mango]

Damn i kinda like this

[paper void]

Feasible, sure. Annoying to implement: yes

Minmaxer haven

[pearl mango]

So if im lower als than the requirement i get more rewards

Yay

[plush nimbus]

If you grinded a lot of dungeons to be at your point, it won't hurt as much to reach a point where you ll have again decent rewards, that's what I feel for now tbh

[sinful vapor]

Not the requirement, but the "baseline shackle"

Which could change and would be higher than the requirement of ALs

[pearl mango]

Well yeah so if i can use 66als at ang15 and i only have 40 i get more rewards is what youre saying right?

[sinful vapor]

And those numbers would have to be figured out

[pearl mango]

Honestly i like that

[plush nimbus]

Let's all HoC to find the best class to do some contents with the lower AL possible then

[pearl mango]

Less reason to al more reason to get better gear = me happy

[languid adder]

I also fully agree - if the issue with the forfeit power for no compensation was'nt a factor in it.
Im down getting less for a while, to get more in the end. Really.
Im not down forfeiting progression for a plot and no return while i forfeit it.

I will take MONTHS of active play to reach back to that point, and rewards could change any moment.

[pearl mango]

That would be kinda your choice if you wanna do so

Im staying gilga

[sinful vapor]

Is the minmaxing aspect something that the studio is against for anguish? It seems that it's inevitable, what can be done to prevent it? Just minimize it?

It's inevitable that gamers will minmax anything

[plush nimbus]

Was just kidding

[pearl mango]

Anyways odie if you wanna implement goodyphil suggestion

Can you nerf deity before that

Lol

[sinful vapor]

It's been suggested before by others and myself

Idk if I can claim it as mine

[pearl mango]

Ahh i c its just that i only saw you saying it

[plush nimbus]

I think it's one of the intend of anguish 2.0, and it would be quite weird to intentionnaly let the cheese they can fix

[sinful vapor]

#1377194080718553150 message was an early one

[sinful vapor]

I wouldn't call minmaxing "de gros cheeser"

[pearl mango]

Yea so if you go over the shackles base limit you gradually get less rewards

If you go exactly the limit you get full rewards

If you go under the limit you get more

That seems pretty fair for everyone

🦛

[sinful vapor]

It's definitely fair, the question Odie poses is if it'll wind up making it easy for everyone to just afk farm at their desired level

[pearl mango]

Goodluck odie

After vacation its not gonna be fun for you coding

🦛

[harsh geyser]

If you go under the limit you get more
This sounds like a recipe for disaster/tons of free resources 😅 The numbers might be done right, but off the hop I'd guess it'd just turn into a bunch of free stuff with no other gameplay change.

[plush nimbus]

Call it as you want, I don't think it's fun and healthy for the game to keep some way to earn more rewards with way less grind, on a grinding game

[sinful vapor]

Well I think effort/reward ratios matter for that

If there are cheesy ways to put in less effort, yeah that's big cheese

[plush nimbus]

Yes

[sinful vapor]

But picking and choosing exactly the best scenario for yourself is not inherently cheese

It's part of the joy of gaming

[pearl mango]

I mean its gonna take more time cuz less als

[plush nimbus]

It's not what I m hoping for

[sinful vapor]

So I think to avoid this, it'd have to be a substantial decrease in ALs. Not like "oh I'll only run 20 ALs instead of 30 and get 2% more orns"

[pearl mango]

Hm?

[sinful vapor]

I think you'd need to give up a decent amount of ALs to make it kick in

Idk what the numbers would be

[pearl mango]

10als for 2% orn is not decent?

[sinful vapor]

Idk

[pearl mango]

🦛hm?

I was gonna say thats bad but damn

[languid adder]

Sacrifice for payoff sounds really nice

[sinful vapor]

Those were fairly random numbers I threw out; 10 ALs is not that much all things considered, but 2% orns is a pittance

[timber furnace]

0.2% sounds fair

[sinful vapor]

Whatever the numbers are... sacrifice below the AL requirement maybe, then extra rewards kicks in

So there's be a range for the baseline rewards

[pearl mango]

I personally think LET ME COOK

General rewards orn/gold/luck
1% per 1 als decrease

When you go over the limit
3% per 1al increase

3% decrease

[sinful vapor]

1% per al is nutty good

[pearl mango]

Other stuff like proof drops and anguished gear drop rate

[sinful vapor]

We'd also need caps of course

[pearl mango]

Idk

[languid adder]

Thats decent :o

[pearl mango]

Aa for proof drop and anguished gear drop rate

Let me cook

0.3% per 1 al decrease

When you go over the limit 1%off per 1 als

(:

[languid adder]

That just means you will always stay ang 4

[sinful vapor]

You'd need caps. Can't nuke rewards completely for full unshackled, can't boost rewards like crazy for low AL

[mystic rose]

Despair path has been much improved by that buff from what I've done so far. Imo, it's about in line with the other paths now, I've been enjoying it

[storm wadi]

I agree. Been farming eyestone and the passive proofs have been great

[umbral blaze]

My suggestion is to make a proof of shackling that you earn when shackled that can be used as anguish proofs with a much worse value in the shop and also be used to level up the anguish levels at a much faster rate

[sinful vapor]

Oh proofs of shackling leveling up faster sounds neat

[valid mesa]

People that have high agony anguish level, do you feel that your ornate raid drops have increased ? I'm at level 4 but the difficulty increased make me die much more and raids take far more time than before, so I'm debating either keep pushing anguish levels or poping scroll at level 0

[languid adder]

I slain a hundred on 8 so far, same if not worse :(

[mystic rose]

It's not a huge increase, more of a little extra bonus. Have a 0.27% drop quality bonus at agony 26

[valid mesa]

Ok I see, I feel like I need to stay at level 0 or 1 for now, taking x3 time for a raid is not worth it I feel, thanks !

[turbid sedge]

Finally mel20 (HoA), odie, do you want the farm kill me? 😂😂

I have three children, pitier for them, increases the rate of proofs 🥲🙄

[languid adder]

You cant have a life and grind Orna this hard at the same time, sorry

But theres only one decision thats right, dont make your children ornphans.

[pearl mango]

Damn

[tacit ridge]

Looks like melancholy is pretty fast to farm as well after all

[pearl mango]

We should ping goudine

Lol

[grave fulcrum]

Do it

[pearl mango]

Nuh uh

Then he will say im harassing him or wtv

Someone else do it (:

[languid adder]

If melancholy is fast i must do something awfully wrong x3

[grave fulcrum]

Rhayvhenn ping goudine

[languid adder]

I dont wanna have an even more explosive debater then me beeing angry at me D:

@Goudane THERE. I pinged his brother.

Hes from denmark, and he likes gouda.

[grave fulcrum]

Lmfao

Fine I'll ping

[languid adder]

ditches

[grave fulcrum]

@plush nimbus

[tacit ridge]

It isn’t, just like agony isn’t fast just because a couple of people have spent the last few weeks no lifing raids. Outliers always exist in every kind of content

[turbid sedge]

1800 Dungeons to get there

a lot of duo

And I'm aethric

[paper void]

Please savor the journey

[plush nimbus]

Ping me whenever my friends ! And we ll meet again in what, 2 years maybe, in a balance thread wondering why this issue hasn't been fixed before 🙏🏻💜

[turbid sedge]

35º at Home, I Stay Hiding

[tacit ridge]

That’s 100 runs over my dungeon spot. Really not that much when you can realistically run it 10x a day if you have a job that lets you be on the phone regularly

[plush nimbus]

Not that much yes, with in the end 10 proof/dungeons (on a game with less penalties opponents stat boosts btw).

[tacit ridge]

Now imagine if Medusa and spelunking were available as well

[plush nimbus]

Lol

Have fun against boss horde in high anguish, especially with medusa

[tacit ridge]

Have fun against AMorri in high anguish

[plush nimbus]

It's not anguish 1

[turbid sedge]

I don't like boss horde 🥲

[plush nimbus]

Thing is, if I want to collect melancholy proof, I can't just choose tier 8 dungeons

[turbid sedge]

The rs scare me

[plush nimbus]

Agony ? 🤷🏻‍♂️

[tacit ridge]

You wouldn’t anyway, because they have less floors

Agony respects your scrolls, otherwise 2/3 of them would be outright wasted

[grave fulcrum]

No but you can run bg on repeat

[plush nimbus]

It's not like raids were not already quite regarding for the time spend

[grave fulcrum]

Bg gives more rewards per run then a single raid does at ang 4

[plush nimbus]

Yes, the so easy BG spam on repeat on high anguish. Really as easy as agony path. But let's not talk about it anymore, see you in July I guess

[languid adder]

I will vessel your way

[tacit ridge]

Were they? I hadn’t touched raids in ages, just dungeons and towers because they were that much more worth it

[plush nimbus]

Well, 30 minutes of raids = 5k random mats on my last testing, on a class not seen as good on raids

[languid adder]

Please explain this. I always found raiding hell and i dreaded doing it for the ornates, it took forever and i barely got anything for it

[plush nimbus]

Scroll up, someone explained it yesterday again

[languid adder]

I wont search a thousand messages.

Thats not helping the convo x3

[tacit ridge]

Don’t you play deity? Please tell me you’re not saying deity isn’t good at raiding 😅

[grave fulcrum]

I'm just stating that bgs for players with decent gear are extremely easy. When you pair that with a 1-2 min run for anguish 1 giving more proofs than an anguish 4 raid. I have stated that there will be a few raids that are problematic because they're simply easier to grind. But you'll end up with some similar things in different content groups as well

[turbid sedge]

Deity is not so good at raiding

[plush nimbus]

Please tell me deity is the best raiding class - talking outside ang2 - and well

[grave fulcrum]

Some people don't enjoy raiding others don't enjoy dungeons others don't enjoy towers

Deity is very strong raiding

[plush nimbus]

And some just hope for some fair balance between contents

[grave fulcrum]

It's beat in a few places

[tacit ridge]

Not being the best doesn’t mean being bad. DUrsa is a crazy strong raider lol

[grave fulcrum]

Depending on what you're doing/fighting

[turbid sedge]

I'm al 106 deity, I tested hera al 80 there's clearly a gap

Gilga>deity for raid

[plush nimbus]

I said not good, doesn't mean it's bad. No class is "bad" at raiding, but some are quicker, and deity isn't part of the top here

[grave fulcrum]

You must be using perfect mage gear

Deity is better than gilga raiding

[turbid sedge]

Nah

[plush nimbus]

I mean

Well

[tacit ridge]

This is just a dishonest argument now. Bye guys

[plush nimbus]

Let's maybe not shift the talk again here

[turbid sedge]

I've been playing Deity for over 2 years, you can't tell me that Gilga is less strong for Raid

[grave fulcrum]

Deity is is better than heretic for QC Ultima when you compare similar passive buffs

[plush nimbus]

I don't care about this topic, the random mats on top of mats you can target were already really strong

[grave fulcrum]

I can tell you that because I stopped using gilga because deity is simply better

[turbid sedge]

I don't agree, we're not going to debate here, that's not the point, but I don't agree with that

[plush nimbus]

Switch back as Gilga ss3 is just ⬆️⬆️⬆️ now

[grave fulcrum]

I have swapped

[tacit ridge]

You do know that dungeons also give you random mats on completion right? And that you can use arch alchemy to get even more of them?

[grave fulcrum]

And my d.ursa does more damage

[plush nimbus]

But let's just not talk about it as it's not related so much to the thread topic

[turbid sedge]

You must have missed something with Gilga then

[grave fulcrum]

Specifically due to gear options being better for deity than gilga.

[plush nimbus]

Absolutely. And I m still waiting for July to have a talk with some more numbers to share

[languid adder]

Not too strong tho - they are not dropped on quantitys that matter for anybody that is not optimizing the fun out of the game.
Also adding raids are even less engaging then tower fights... I dont see anybody raiding outside of farming basically mandatory ornates without the random mats and proofs anymore. Barely anybody enjoyed it before, everybody had huge raid piles and not enough skooma to brute force them.

[turbid sedge]

I've seen gilga with 50 al do more damage than I do

[grave fulcrum]

You mean someone who probably has perfect gear

[tacit ridge]

I hope you’ll be comparing July to a similar event like Medusa, and not with event-less dungeons

[turbid sedge]

Yes I'm talking about perfect gear

[languid adder]

Gilga indeed is still very strong but dont tell anybody they want the buffs

[plush nimbus]

We re talking of now all those can give you cort

[grave fulcrum]

Your argument about a gilga being better is like goudine argument that because abyss can kill Ang 17? Raids in 30 seconds that the path is to fast

[plush nimbus]

Lol, I m waiting for your Médusa spam on anguish

But we ll do, to have something fair

[tacit ridge]

You’ll see it, don’t worry

[plush nimbus]

As it's part of the point : to compare path

[tacit ridge]

I’ll probably even HoC to deity to make it even easier

[turbid sedge]

I hesitate to do a HoC on gilga, I would make an objective return

[plush nimbus]

Good luck

[languid adder]

And? :o

[turbid sedge]

What are you playing?

[grave fulcrum]

So your gilga now?

[turbid sedge]

Nop deity atm

[plush nimbus]

And when you ll see dudes earning 40 cort / min spamming shitty raids maybe it will be time to consider there s an issue somewhere 😅

[turbid sedge]

I want hoc, I hesitate between gilga and heretic

[grave fulcrum]

You gotta be doing something wrong or gearing improperly because deity is more att more ward and ursa gets temp stats+ redline