#Grand Summoner Hydrus Update

1 messages · Page 2 of 1

sweet mesa
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i was telling the complete opposite

safe wyvern
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Yeah it just derailed a lot I not even know the topic anymore, well... i gave my 2 cents up there, its up to odie now, back to the corner of discord

cunning marlin
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That wasn't Drunkturtle, it was RyuDouro

plain niche
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Lmao

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What is that

cunning marlin
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A friend of yours it seems xd

safe wyvern
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They got mixed in my mind xD MB

plain niche
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Im just auriga player Ymir

sinful sluice
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If yall want to make this channel parseable in any way shape or form, yall gotta be a little bit less, uh, everywhere with your words

wispy phoenix
sinful sluice
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It's been like 24 hours and there are a thousand messages in this place

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I understand most of them come from a place of genuine concern and love for the class

pine topaz
sinful sluice
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But this is not easy to sift through, even less so on a weekday

cunning marlin
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There are 900 in the gods classline beta discussion too

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Xd

wispy phoenix
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My humble suggestion: make it possible for gsh to get doublecasts on summons

sinful sluice
cunning marlin
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Also don't look at the last 100 messages or you will lose your mind

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We have seen some funny things there

sinful sluice
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In any case, keep it short, keep it consise.
Test out Hydrus, tell us how it feels.
There's not necessarily a need to say how to fix the problems (unless they're super simple), we're not game designers after all.

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Does your opinion differ from the pinned message?

wispy phoenix
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Said it here earlier as well but Im not a fan of gsh getting quadratic scaling as well

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Imo we should get rid of quadratic scaling altogether

past jolt
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noone is even commenting about the changes, most of the stuff is brain storming new stuff lol

wispy phoenix
sinful sluice
past jolt
coral pawn
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I'll wrap it up and ping you for a pin @sinful sluice once i have some time to spare

sinful sluice
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that being said, BP is really not good without ascensions, so it might need a bit of a glowup if that removal ends up happening. But that's not here or there

wispy phoenix
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#💡│suggestions message

shameless plug

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it probably would need a buff afterwards but I think overall it'd be more balanced than it is now

sinful sluice
past jolt
coral pawn
past jolt
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pin this maybe?

sinful sluice
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nah

coral pawn
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I'll edit this over time then

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For me it's helpful to simply compare past concerns with current update to check if those where tackled and if not propose changes following the current theme, so less summons more player power.

wispy phoenix
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I feel like we could still use some defensive passive. Not sure what your experiences are but Im getting kind of steamrolled by amorri and great anguish

coral pawn
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Going totally off the script is possible but the more you're going off the less likely it is to be implemented.

cunning marlin
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Losing battalions really hurts

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Even with the follower

wispy phoenix
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Batallions 1 maybe?

coral pawn
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I'd love to have smth more reliable

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And we're still looking for the little smth for the Hydrus passive

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I mean technically it does increase def/res but this doesn't cut it. Also thinking about low AL peps here.

safe wyvern
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I suggested a ARPG like approach of using summons with full kill pacts and a soul spender skill with a limitation on the job using the skills like gilga tax using the Hydrus passive, it would be something really hard just to change but... it would be nice

pine topaz
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Or something to compensate the squishiness like giving it resurgence

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So we can use it to our advantage

safe wyvern
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It would spin the "normal summoner" with instead of using 5 summons only you would keep using summons throughout the battle

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But they would be fodder for hydrus skills

pulsar steppe
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perhaps it would make sense to slowmode this thread? i understand folks may be passionate, but we do need to promote readability for the studio

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Kaine is human and can likely only parse so much

coral pawn
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I have read it all👍

pulsar steppe
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(at least, I think Kaine is human. i've never asked. sorry for assuming)

turbid heath
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lmfao

pulsar steppe
coral pawn
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Just summarizing takes time. I'm energy by the way✨

sinful sluice
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I've always had my suspicions..

wispy phoenix
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turns out aliens are pretty good at pixel art mightiest_mimic

coral pawn
naive bay
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Kaine OP

coral pawn
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Hellmo on fire

past jolt
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The more souls the steadier sounds really nice honestly

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If that's paired with the proposed "summons lost via traveling floors in dungeons give souls" I think that might help both raiding and dungeons

wispy phoenix
# coral pawn Btw back to topic, from the top of my head - Old Hydrus passive but you loose al...

bunch of ideas for spells:

  • pact that kills 3 weakest summons (would be useful to charge passive without killing starting 2 summons)
  • pact that kills 1 summon and deals damage proportional to the hp of that summon (useful to charge passive while dishing out a bit of damage)
  • mini aoe explode pact that damages say 3 enemies and costs 3 souls to cast (or whatever is more balanced).
  • biiig damage pact that costs 10 souls to cast (sort of like deity apex skill)
coral pawn
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So similar to Apex from Deities kinda limit breakish?

wispy phoenix
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yeah, but I guess one issue is that the normal damage passive is still active while you're gathering those souls

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hmm

wispy phoenix
past jolt
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How about either an addition to the passive that makes your summons more likely to protect you the more souls you have, or a stance that makes your summons more likely to protect you, but consumes a soul per turn

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I really like both of your ideas too kaine, and the extra spells that interact with souls pie suggested would make gsh feel way more fun to play

pine topaz
past jolt
pine topaz
past jolt
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idk I feel like this is pointless discussion

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No hate but yeah we can't be talking numbers about some imaginary concepts we have no idea will actually come

naive bay
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Alright so, I've put a few thoughts on the closed beta and most of those were addresssed, however there's two main sticklers I have:

  1. Coupled Essence misses the mark entirely imo. The times this would come up as useful as if you intend to use that first summon as something to stay. On top of this, there is a lot of mage based builds that shorten cast times already for spells. If you are a GSH that is encouraged to sacrifice your summons for the souls passive, you want something that summons a lot and quickly. Summon Dead fits this easily. 1 turn, multiple summons and then quickly sacced. For a raid situation, coupled essence is a lost cause so long as dead summons fuel the passive. For a gauntlet situation, this would provide faster summons if they were needed. However no guidelight. (However, I felt we had the perfect solution in closed beta from a bug that was patched. Paired Essence would trigger on every gauntlet floor, providing 2 fresh summons. A BP user would have benefitted greatly from this.)

  2. I'd like there to be a different mag boosting passive for GSH. 10 summons killed in order to reach full passive is a harsh, shoot yourself in the foot, kind of pace. If it was based on number of summons active or some other "color"line passive, this would make the class immensely smoother in terms of set up.

coral pawn
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Humm what if it's not only number of summons, but number of entities killed during a battle too?

naive bay
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It would only be useful in gauntlets

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Or you talking about the slayer passives?

coral pawn
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It would be as useful as is in raids n stuff n but build naturally in dungeons.

naive bay
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I see where you're going. All deaths. Yeah could be useful in solving the gauntlet pace issues.

coral pawn
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And summon raids. Could even tweak the counters, 2 souls per summon 1 per other dead entity.

wispy phoenix
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cool idea

naive bay
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Agreed

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However...coupled essenece still missing the mark even with revamped passive involving deaths imo

wispy phoenix
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I think coupled essence would've been fine if it didnt get nerfed. In live coupled essence makes every summon 1 turn, not just the first one. In the pin suggestions there is a slightly weaker version that has a 50% chance to do that, stacking with riftlocks such that it's still possible to get 100% 1-turn summons if you combine it with double riftlock. I think that is a good approach to make gsh more attractive for pact builds.

While it would've been fun to have paired essence past f1, not sure if it'd be too strong. That basically means you can spam BP infinitely in endless. Although I guess even with that gsh wouldnt beat gsa at orn farming if I had to guess

past jolt
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and also the 2 souls per summon and 1 per enemy would greatly reduce setup time for raids

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kaine youre the goat man your suggestions are really good

coral pawn
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Summary

I tried to filter out dissolute discussions and focus on manageable and resounding suggestions.

Conditions

Mainly to get a feeling for the past concerns, why GSH is changed and what NFs goal is for the current version of the class

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Overall stats and survivability

Feedback
Without Battalions GSH takes much more hits and arguably has to be treated like a class without summons in its capability of taking hits and being statused. Also it runs mana dry quite fast.

  • Mana issues
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  • No Battalions huge hit to survivabilty
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Suggestions

  • Steadfast
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Coupled Essence

Feedback
CE is soley meant to give GSH a helping hand in dungeons without PE and Guidelight. However with both of the later and Battalions missing it's considered pointless investing turns in summoning.
It's an uninteresting passive for high AL late game players.
Also the best way to charge the Hydrus passive already is a 1 turn spell.

  • CE missing the mark
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Suggestions

  • CE 50% instasummon chance stacking with Riftlock
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BP AL scaling

Feedback
Even with additional multipliers provided by followers the quadratical AL scaling of base GS still outshines the less effective AL scaling of GSH.

Suggestions

  • Pacts/Summon HP scale with AL
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Hydrus Passive

Feedback
The souls counter is a nice qol addition.
The Hydrus passive's mechanic remains untouched so the concerns remain. It takes a lot of turns to set up and doesn't tie into fluent gameplay.
It becomes less relevant the more AL you gain.
The soul system (Hydrus passive) gets a lot of attention. Folks are looking for

  • a consistent way to gain souls tied in to fluent gameplay
  • a way to spend or loose those souls to gain a certain advantage

Suggestions faster/convenient charge

  • lost summons per floor due to no Guidelight count as souls
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  • all dead entities per battle give souls
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Suggestions additional effects

  • 10 souls prevent death
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  • Limit break like pact, consuming souls
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  • status protection per soul
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  • exploding summons at death by pact
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  • extra turn
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  • rising summon protection per soul
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  • random t.buff per dead summon
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Dissolute Discussions

If you feel fancy you may reread those too.

  • GSH Bene Discussion
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  • Beo Summoner discussion
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Edit 0.5
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Edit 2
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Edit 2.5
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@pulsar steppe ☝️
@sinful sluice pls pin

sinful sluice
sinful sluice
sinful sluice
sinful sluice
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We don't deserve you

past jolt
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The goattt 🔥🔥

naive bay
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Kaine must be what godhood looks like

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We are unworthy

coral pawn
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I'm blushed🙈

brisk sentinel
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Maybe the passive charging from things you kill too could make it less of a pain to use.

spark plover
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Skill uses percent now??

IMG_20240321_124605.jpg
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Oh, but it doesn't even bother climbing with summon deaths

coral pawn
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Ye but it still soley seems to be the visual counter, stats are still increseased.

wispy phoenix
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I guess the new meter design implies we're not getting any soul spending mechanics? Guess it's time to focus on other ideas then

spark plover
past jolt
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It just goes from 0% to 100% when you get to full charge

past jolt
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oh sorry if I accidentally pinged you kaine

robust turtle
past jolt
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ah yeah you're right

robust turtle
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Back on main topic: what about a mechanic that automates summons in some way, but summons become temporary and have a random/fixed turn count of being alive? Thus then interacting directly with the soul counter if they die by enemy hit or expiration

past jolt
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cool in theory, idk in practice

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But there is basically no way it's getting added this beta

sinful sluice
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The simpler it is, the more likely it is considered, so do keep that in mind

hidden zealot
# robust turtle Back on main topic: what about a mechanic that automates summons in some way, bu...

My idea would be:

  • GSH can auto-summon the top summon spell slot (still take the same amount of time required to summon) on top of player's turn. You can get multiple high value summons in a shorter amount of turns.
  • All summons via auto-summon will be inflicted with "Doom"-like status and expire when countdown hit 0. This allow the GSH to still be able to use pact spells to certain effectiveness.
  • GSH gain soul power via dead/lost/expired summons.
  • Souls should give effect when reach 100%. Eg. Able to withstand a lethal hit. Lose all the soul power after taking that lethal hit.
  • GSH can use souls to offset the amount of turns spend for summoning. 20% souls for every -1 turn.

I just find that the current soul system is too clunky and not intuitive to rely upon. Losing Elysian Guidelight is a pretty big deal in dungeon content so it should have some mechanic to make up for that loss. (Auto-summon idea to make up for that.)

Coupled Essence passive is not helpful at all, the value is lost after that one summon spell.

Since we get to use follower, losing Battalions II seems reasonable for obvious reasons.

Hydrus passive should be the main essence of the class.

Feel free to criticise my idea.

violet drum
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passive summoning sounds awesome, but would fit GSA more?

hidden zealot
past jolt
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Cool idea but still no way it's getting implemented in this beta 😭

robust turtle
wispy phoenix
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when did that ever happen in previous betas tho

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I dont think we can expect anything except a few minor tweaks

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ngl, Im not a fan of how the system currently seems to work. It seems like all the major changes happen in closed beta for patreons / ORN members, while the open beta is just for minor tweaks and bugfixes. It doesnt seem like we have much of a say in shaping the changes

robust turtle
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Are we starting WitchORN hunt?😂

spark plover
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Hell, if you look up "goat" in the dictionary, this is the first thing you'll see:

IMG_20240321_165041.jpg
wispy phoenix
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it's not about the ORN, they are not allowed to share anything from the closed beta afaik

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I just dont get the point of the closed beta

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dont you want more input from other players? Maybe not access for everyone but at least allow us to comment on what's happening in there

violet drum
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no, they want more bug testing, and less input. thats how dev works.

wispy phoenix
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right now it feels like suggesting any major changes is a waste of time, but we never got the opportunity to suggest anything major since we dont have closed beta acccess

violet drum
coral pawn
wispy phoenix
violet drum
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feedback on if something is working or not, if it will cause unforseen problems, that is feedback you literally said "suggesting major changes" those are two widly different thigns from a dev/software/game standpoint

wispy phoenix
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ugh

violet drum
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feedback generally fine tunes, not creates

wispy phoenix
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I can understand there being 2 phases:
one for higher level / conceptual changes with limited access (closed beta currently)
one for minor tweaks and bug fixed with public access (open beta currently)

the issue is that we dont have any input with regards to the closed beta because it's completely walled off for us

spark plover
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Imo, let's focus more on creative criticism/feedback
We can bitch and complain all we want but that's for AFTER both beta (the current private and soon, public) ends

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If it turns out that GSH is still unsatisfactory after both then unleash hell, but for now, let's use this limited timeframe for more productive usage

spark plover
spark plover
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Summons cycling between life and death in the background so GSH doesn't have to spend its turns (especially when it's a summoner with emphasis on player agency) would be a great addition/replacement to CE

hidden zealot
past jolt
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Incredible suggestion hopefully we can get something like this in the next beta cause there is no way we get it now👍👍

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Unless?

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Father odie please copiumGS

robust turtle
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You would still need to setup summons, but you can decide what to put in the cycle

untold fjord
# hidden zealot My idea would be: - GSH can auto-summon the top summon spell slot (still take th...

I like this idea because it can solve the issue of having to spend extra turns casting spells to fill-up the soul power, but I think it's a little bit over-complicated to me

My suggestion is maybe just simplify it to this :

  • Every turn you gain souls equals to the number of summons you have on the battle field. Souls persist through floors.
  • Every time you use a summon spell you also gain souls equals to the summon count (This is mainly to solve the issue where it's harder to charge up souls after the 1st floor of dungeon because GSH doesn't have guidelight and paired essence won't proc after 1st floor)
  • The more souls you have, the higher chance to skip the turns required for summoning. Maximum 50% so it's guaranteed insta summon with 2 riftlocks. (When losing summons, this passive can help GSH to catch up to the full pact dmg easier)
hidden zealot
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Also, GSH focus should be on the soul power system itself. We should think of a way to make the soul power system work else players would completely ignore that system.

coral pawn
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As the discussion goes on i'm noticing that the soul system (Hydrus passive) gets a lot of attention. Seems like we're looking for

  • a consistent way to gain souls tied in to fluent gameplay
  • a way to spend or loose those souls to gain a certain advantage
robust turtle
# hidden zealot Also, GSH focus should be on the soul power system itself. We should think of a ...

Was thinking the same. Auto-summon partially fixes souls generation/consistency and doesn't require extra turns in that regard, but not having guidelight still impacts both offence and defence and requires an additional setup other than buffs. "Hard-cast" could help but it's more turns in dungeon to resummon and needs an alternative defence passive that doesn't rely on summons.
In the same instances, like raids, should work better but I need to make a couple of flowchart for turns

past jolt
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I don't believe it's in the scope of this beta, but one can hope

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I also believe the initial concerns about the changes we did get are more important to be looked at before adding entirely new stuff

coral pawn
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Well it's not entirely new.
In the end we're still looking for faster ways to summon and an additional effect for the Hydrus passive.

hidden zealot
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GSH is still a summoning class but more to player-oriented damage playstyle. Even without EG, the soul system should make up for it but it need to overcome the summoning issue. It is similar to the Redline/Blueline/Ward/Apex system and depends on how the player want they want to use it.

spark plover
mighty garden
sinful sluice
pulsar steppe
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Folks, let’s try not to flood these individual threads with discussion about the way betas operate, etc - nor the gloomposting. Please wait until the next wave of changes until drawing conclusions about direction of the class

Kaine has made great feedback summary. Let’s allow the studio the needed time to work through it

tame lagoon
tacit shoal
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Looking forward to see what the latest tweaks do though when new beta client goes live. It's like opening a present

wispy phoenix
coral pawn
past jolt
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precentages should be easier to understand

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so thats a small qol W

shrewd sequoia
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I like this as a % reading now instead of a soul count, good change

safe wyvern
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What if Hydrus Get a Paried Essence II (1 summon in the begining of the battle) every new floor of the dungeon instead of coupled essence?
1 - makes pact first turn active
2- less mana intensive
3- doesnt stack summons with other summoners
4- coupled essence makes you have a chance to take a hit in every battle and no other class have it that way

safe wyvern
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And follower summon are eating the Coupled Essence

Screenshot_20240322-124300_Orna_BETA.jpg
past jolt
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and if they dont remove guidelight, endless will be broken because of snapshotting

safe wyvern
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The idea was to have it in every single floor instead of just on the first one, to turn on the pacts without 1 turn delay

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The pact damage is kinda fine without a lot of summons and can have some sinergy with Replica Eos and Summoner followers, that's what I was testing early today

coral pawn
coral pawn
safe wyvern
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maybe adding a no turn cost to the first summon too?

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its already ahefty price to use a 450mp ancient dragon+ 160mp pact

coral pawn
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It'd still be against previous community concerns which was a lengthy setup so i'd rather avoid adding more of those turns to any content.
However i'd wait what they have in store before exploring more additions or possible changes🤔

hidden zealot
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How about gaining souls passively? Like 10% souls per turn? But still would like to have souls interaction for summon related spells.

coral pawn
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With a passive soul gain it'd become more like a recource than a stat passive imo, which isn't necessarily a bad thing but we'd have to rethink the whole system and how to spend those souls.
If we'd like to have 'avoid death at 100%, consumes all souls' it'd be too strong with 10% per turn + active soul gain, i think.
However if we'd have smth like 'at 100% your next pact does twice the dmg' that's another story.
Or soul consuming pacts instead of Summon HP.
'Soul burst - consume 20% souls to deal Aoe dmg.'
Etc.

past jolt
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lots of cool potential with souls but right now they are just a stat passive so honestly if they got an effect, unless its really strong i wouldnt want to consume my fully stacked passive

wispy phoenix
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I like the idea of souls being a resource but the fact that the passive is linked to it as well complicates it a bit. It means you could get stronger spells (that consume souls) and stats from the passive from the same resource. Doesn't make that much sense imo

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Or the passive should consume souls instead

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Idk

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Do yall think that could work maybe? That the passive activates if you have >0 souls but that it consumes for example 1 soul per turn

sinful sluice
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Bastille is their passive and they spend it to spike, they spend it to defend, and the passicely gain it

coral pawn
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I do like the concept but i'm a bit concerned cuz we already send the first feedback wave and the studio propably works on those.
However the good thing is that souls as a system already exists. It's the spending part that looks like a big hurdle.
I'll add it to the first edit once i've time tho👌

past jolt
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cause it will take 2 turns minimum + you get rid of your defense by sacrificing your summons

coral pawn
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Personally i don't consider them defense anymore since no Battalions.

past jolt
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they still protect you alot though

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just by making the enemy ai target them

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you could argue that you can get sniped if it just targets you but it was literally the same before, just a smaller chance to go through both your summons and battalions

wispy phoenix
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Gaining souls passively doesnt make sense from a conceptual standpoint tho imo

safe wyvern
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Maybe an "oversoul"? Souls gives status up to X and then you have X extra?

hidden zealot
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Even with passive + actively summon and sacrifice summon to generate souls won't make the GSH op. You're still using turns to get the boost.

past jolt
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all of these suggestions could be really fun if orna's pace was like 3 times slower

coral pawn
# past jolt they still protect you alot though

They do. However comparing Battalions 2 to zero is moving from 'you could get hit' to 'you will get hit' thus being a certainty and at this point i have to consider being hit and play accordingly.

hidden zealot
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Also GSH will become a 4 different resource management class.

wispy phoenix
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The idea of getting souls from enemy kills does make sense from a conceptual standpoint, but that wouldnt work in raids I guess

coral pawn
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Unless

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Dealing dmg harvests souls

past jolt
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could work as an alternative to sacrificing summons

coral pawn
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But now we're in Apex territory 😅

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Sac pact deals dmg to your summons doesnt it?

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BP too

past jolt
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yeah i still think souls should be gained from your summons only honestly

safe wyvern
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But raids you could use normal pack too right? Its kinda unique its approach already to kill stuff there

hidden zealot
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Apex resource currently can choose to use it or not when it's full. No significant impact.

past jolt
safe wyvern
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You summon stuff, kill them, summon ancient dragon, pact+ control their hp

hidden zealot
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Summoner type raid should also give souls if the raid summons are killed.

past jolt
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ehh idk about that honestly

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would be cool but i dont think its needed

hidden zealot
past jolt
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i think the best suggestions are ones that use current game mechanics

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sounds easiest to implement

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like i honestly think if we got a new pact that kills 1 of your summons and deals high damage, a summon that has revive/self replicates

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it would improve hydrus significantly

wispy phoenix
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yeah

past jolt
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doesnt have to be all passives, you can make the soul stacking just way more convinient by making the whole proccess way easier

wispy phoenix
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but its still antisynergetic with bp

past jolt
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what is?

wispy phoenix
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self replicating summons

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then you cant summon thicc summons

past jolt
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it doesnt have to be, we have beithir

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the issue is its on a weapon which suckss

wispy phoenix
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beithir doesnt die in normal fights tho

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that would be the main point of self replicating summons for gsh

past jolt
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yeah thats why i said the kill a summon pact

wispy phoenix
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yup I agree

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that would be very cool

past jolt
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like you start off by killing them 1 by one and when its full stacked you switch to bp

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the thing is all classes do this to some extent, they deal damage while stacking their passive

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i guess you could argue summons hitting the raid could count as that? but honestly the damage is so miniscule idk if it does

safe wyvern
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Maybe giving souls based on turns to summon?

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2 4 turn summons + summon undead should give 10 stacks on raids with sacrificial II

past jolt
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actually not a bad suggestion, could make getting souls in dungeons less tedious too

coral pawn
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It was a testflight back then but imo we're at a point with beithir n stuff where we can say a summon with 100% chance to replicate ain't broken.

wispy phoenix
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but even with 100% summon chance, how useful would scarecrow really be?

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its probably still slower than summon dead for charging passive

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I used to use scarecrow in dungeons for gsh but now witjh elysian guidelight gone it doesnt really help that much either

coral pawn
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Raids maybe? Hopefully replicating while you buff up?

sinful sluice
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In general I do just wish that the self replicating summons didn't attempt to self replicate when the board was full

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But that's not necessarily a hydrus complaint

violet drum
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would feel a lot better if they turned into souls, or exploded if they did replicate when board was full

coral pawn
#

Uhh overcharging the board causes them to die instead of fail.

coral pawn
brisk sentinel
#

That could be cool.
Summoning over the limit causes an old summon to be sacrificed, dealing (AoE?) damage, and making room for the new summon.
Deal damage, and reap their soul in 1 go.

vast finch
#

What's the value in using gsh over heretic for this though? Just that you can focus AL in one class?

past jolt
#

yes lol otherwise there is basically no "value" in using any other class other than deity for horde

wispy phoenix
#

Yeah lol. I think gsh is going to be pretty decent in horde all things considered. You can use lute and it being a mage class means you can use aaru robe as well. Still worse than heretic / deity / beo tho

quasi thorn
#

enemy kills counts to soul, summons souls count x2, max soul 30, grant buffs on 10, 20 and 30, i didnt read anything, just a idea

vast finch
hidden zealot
#

Self-replicate passive? All summons are able to replicate one copy of themselves per cast. The replication cast time is based on the summon spell.

wispy phoenix
vast finch
#

Does phoenix not require any pet action too?

wispy phoenix
#

Preferably yes

coral pawn
# coral pawn ## Dissolute Discussions If you feel fancy you may reread those too. - GSH Bene...

Edit 0.5 Interlude

in between changes

Summon's Souls as a ressource

Feedback
During the conversations we explored the Hydrus passive and its Summon's Souls as an additional ressource to manage similar to Gilga's Ward management with its own skills and passives attached to it.

Suggestions

  • Summon's Souls as a passive gain
    #1219672026160042118 message
  • Summon's Souls skills/ passives
    #1219672026160042118 message

Summon's Soul gains

Feedback
Additional ways to either accelerate summoning or ease gaining souls and stack the Hydrus passive.

Suggestions

  • auto summon in the background
    #1219672026160042118 message
    #1219672026160042118 message
  • summon self doom
    #1219672026160042118 message
  • summon Scarecrow 100% chance
    #1219672026160042118 message
  • summons summoned when field is full die and give Summon's Souls
    #1219672026160042118 message

Back to the main post
#1219672026160042118 message
Edit 1
#1219672026160042118 message
Edit 2
#1219672026160042118 message
Edit 2.5
#1219672026160042118 message

#

@sinful sluice pin pls☝️

tame lagoon
#

Just a minor nitpick, can you named it to something other than soul. At the first glance, It thought it cost soul (the material) to cast spells as SummonerH

coral pawn
#

Mainly referring to the flavour text of the skill but i get what you mean👍

sinful sluice
sinful sluice
lethal totem
#

Is healing with base GS + idk maji not viable?

coral pawn
#

Mag doesn't influence LifePact only HP does. It's less effective for sure.

lethal totem
#

Oh no way i thought mag helped

coral pawn
#

Mag multipliers help as it is a spell.

coral pawn
#

A member of the community reached out to me on OL. Due to the language barrier they can't/ don't want to join the discussion here.
They represent others enjoying GSH for its endless capabilities and are concerned about the removal of Guidelight and wish for it to stay as is.
#1009229920087593000 message
#1009229920087593000 message

Screenshot_20240325_152227_Discord.jpg
#

This is not about reviving the discussion about Guidelight but about representing their opinion here too.

wispy phoenix
#

I can understand why folks who used gsh for endless think it's a downgrade for endless. Having a follower probably doesn't beat the greatly reduced chance of being hit when you have 5 summons with you. Guidelight is just a very strong endless passive

violet drum
#

"downgrade" ..well it completely removed bp endless builds.

lament panther
#

why not a third celestial class. that will take more work for nf but nothing says 2 celestial classes per t10 only.

#

also heretics can finally get the heretic hercules lmao

coral pawn
#

I can imagine a third celestial soley for GS at this point might cause some community backlash😅

lament panther
#

maybe not at this point. hold off gsh changes for next update which will intoduce more celestial classes. there is a lot of potential in the new gsh but it removes too many builds and need a lot of fine tuning to push out. let nf focus on diety more, the main character for this update anyways, and save this gsh change for a new update. i believe updates for this game should expand the amount of viable builds (cough, nef ss, cough), and not remove builds unless it actually can't be fixed.

spring root
coral pawn
#

Builds you gain by having a follower outweigh the builds you loose by missing out on/ reducing Guidelight imo.
You loose BP and protection based builds in dungeons but gain basically any other available build.
Also i think the GSH update is well placed now.

wispy phoenix
#

I kind of agree, but imo it still needs more work

#

mainly coupled essence and the passive still not being ideal to charge

#

I still think its a net positive for the classline

#

base gs and gsa were already good enough at endless, but they were bad at live pvp and slow in non anguish horde/party dungeons compared to other classes. This new gsh with the follower addresses those weaknesses which is nice

#

I dont see myself moving away from base gs for raids. Quadratic scaling on bp is just too broken at the moment, and base gs is more safe with batallions 3

past jolt
#

so I guess waiting is all we can do

limpid walrus
#

While you guys wait - sorry just joined convo and just and am just an outsider looking in - how do we like the changes so far? Are we headed in the right direction/ is there excitement for future GSH? Kind of interested in what the class can be ngl

#

I tried it briefly in pvp today and it felt -OK- but maybe not quite there yet?

vast finch
#

I'd be in favor of ascension scaling pacts so it keeps up with gs ascension scaling summon hp

past jolt
safe wyvern
# vast finch I'm mostly concerned with this. I feel like any gsh rework or change needs to ad...

If it stay as is it is obviously a nerf all around and the follower is a band-aid fix in this iteration unfortunately, id the actual scale of the soul gauge in the summoner, but it is a 10 summon to max vs a 5 summon to max today, so...
Pro
-Followers
-Potential

Cons

  • You lose summons in floor dungeon in a class with a summon dependent skill (Blood Pact)
  • You need to kill two times the amount of summons to get the same outcome as before (assuming it is the same % increase)
  • there is no defense mechanist in the class

Future
I know devs took our feedback, and it would became a really interesting class in the future, but at this point, there is no way to spin as the rework as a buff cause no follower adds enough power to justify the 50% more prep time and you need to account for the new found swishyness and in the end, it was just an overcorrection of a class switch problem on dungeon floors

coral pawn
#

The concept of a follower on a summoner class was a previous and frequently proposed suggestion so i'd not call it a band aid at all.
It has always been 10 summons so max Hydrus's passive since the release of the passive back then.
Also note that this is still work in progress we're talking about and we're lucky to be able to influence it🙂

safe wyvern
#

I really thought it was just 5 summons, i never really saw the difference when morrigan killed a summon before

#

But the fact that battalion II vs pet, i'd get battalion II, and it is a sour taste in Hydrus users since we have all magical classes getting buffs at the same time it just got nerfed amd a follower for you to try to fix the fact that you are a T8 class in status fighting T10 things and if your gear patch you up, you use phoenix or chimera

coral pawn
#

No sour taste here since like i said this is a process and there will always be very strong highs and weak lows. We're here to find the middleground.

safe wyvern
#

I said in the first message there is hope for the future, and it could the most different class in the game with a 2 resources instead of one to effectivelly be able to do damage, but the class really needs a defensive layer

pine topaz
#

E.g. an alternative of life pact but instead it takes your hp to dish damage could be called something like conversion pact

wispy phoenix
#

Ultima endless is also a thing

#

Heretic at home mimic

pine topaz
#

I know just think its a bit of a waste to limit the usual pact build to stuff like raiding and pvp so if there was another pact that didnt require summons id be getting better "value for money" out of the build.

sinful sluice
#

Soul Pact - You sacrifice some of your max HP and a stored soul to deal damage and summon skeletons. (?)

pine topaz
wispy phoenix
pine topaz
#

Actually nevermind just tried out in endless dungeon myself amd hit 6mil with no buffs beithir is broken

wispy phoenix
#

yeah lol, that works because gsa + beithir is super fat summons and then you still get the full pact bonus of gsh

pine topaz
#

Yeah mine get 503k health its a juicy blood pact bank

#

Just wish their was a multi hit version of blood pact then i have a chance to break hof for highest magic damage

brisk sentinel
#

Since setup times are a big complaint for summoners... (Esp Hydrus, which needs 10 summons for its passive)
New Passive: Blood Ritual: You summon much much faster, but each summon costs a portion of your max HP.

pine topaz
#

I dont think that will be a problem if coupled essence is fixed as suggested

coral pawn
naive bay
#

I still think summon turn cost should be swapped to summoning sickness

#

Achieves the same tax but vastly improves the pace

vast finch
#

We're gonna kill our summons anyway with blood pact. Make summons take 1 turn but have summoning sickness of like 10 turns after which they expire and vanish.

brisk sentinel
#

Expire and vanish? Naw.
Just cant attack for x turns. Ex: hydra is a 4 turn cast becomes instant summon, but cant attack for 3 turns.

coral pawn
#

Summoning sickness is more about not being able to summon for x turns.
E.g. you instantly summon a G.Hydra but cannot summon anything for 3 turns afterwards. It's basically like a cooldown.

cold crag
#

Summoning sickness (from M:tG parlance) would be that you summon instantly, but the summon can't act for X turns.

coral pawn
#

Understood.

brisk surge
#

Would fafnir now be a good option with revive 3? Or nada?

coral pawn
#

Dunno if it's worth it. You'd give up a boosting follower for Ophion and a mediocre summon with revive.

robust turtle
#

Summon Fafnir when?😂

plain niche
#

Um there is summon fafnir already

robust turtle
coral pawn
#

Just Ophion

pulsar steppe
#

Today's updates:

  • Coupled Essence -> Paired Essence II
  • No Battalions -> Battalions I
  • Summons left at the end of battle will now contribute to the Hydrus passive charge
  • Paired Essence now procs per floor again
wispy phoenix
#

oh god bp endless is back I think

pulsar steppe
#

back = doable or cheese-able?

naive bay
#

Doable I hope

sinful sluice
#

Sweet, so worst case scenario the Hydrus passive is filled in 10 floors

#

that, coupled with pets, and I'm pretty sure Hydrus can do a traditional sweep clear like other mage classes, with minimal setup

spark plover
#

Didn't we have PE already or was I confusing stuff?

pulsar steppe
#

you had a new version of Coupled, where the first summon cast was instant

spark plover
#

No, I meant we had PE4 + Coupled Essence prior to this

pulsar steppe
#

yes, but with the no-proc-per-floor, it was quite different

sinful sluice
#

Summons left behind don't seem to be charging the passive

#

Not only did that 10% not increase, but I'm already in floor 9

spark plover
#

Ngl, feels like we went one step forward, two steps back
Dungeon effectiveness is good, sure, but:

  • Raid would see a longer set-up due to not having the second summon immediately
  • Towers capacity went to non-existent again (it had potential previously with the 2 summons + Follower all at once along with the Summoner)
  • PvP took a massive hit by far, what with the GSH suddenly lowering down to the BoF iteration
sinful sluice
#

lemme grab BP rq

#

okay yeah it isn't working

#

aaand it's fixed

spark plover
#

Yeah nah, this isn't working

sinful sluice
#

in record time

spark plover
#

Bring back Paired Essence 4 at least

sinful sluice
wispy phoenix
spark plover
#

With 1 summon at battle start, no guaranteed quickcast, and the only quick summons that can be had en masse are also easily killed, that Battalions 1 might as well not exist

pulsar steppe
#

Remember, much like Beo Hydrus, the goal here is to bring power and survivability back to the player. continuing to focus on summons for power/survivability just brings us closer to Auriga

spark plover
#

Wouldn't bringing back Battalions clash with that ideology then?

sinful sluice
#

Dungeoneering definitely feels better. It's nowhere near perfect, but this isn't exactly an optimised build. Even if I do have 50 ascensions

spark plover
sinful sluice
#

whereas "perfect" means killing everything in one shot and never missing

#

Weapon's a questing staff. If it were a cele lute I'm sure it'd mow the floor with everything

wispy phoenix
#

ok ngl, maybe I overestimated how strong BP would be in endless. With 1 ancient dragon the M1 is 2.5. This means it's going to be a lot weaker than ultima in endless (also because ultima can crit)

spark plover
wispy phoenix
pulsar steppe
#

both steadfast and battalions were pitched - we'll like try them both (not at once)

spark plover
#

DOWN WITH BATTALIONS 🔥

sinful sluice
#

Regarding raiding, it does have one more summon's worth of setup, but we did get batallions back, so it's a neutral / positive change.
Horde dungeons are much easier to setup which is a positive change.
Towers definitely hurt from not being able to charge the passive between battles coupled with the half summons at turn one. PvP offense also hurts for the same reason

pulsar steppe
#

let's let some others weigh in. battalions was certainly requested to return

sinful sluice
#

Overall pumping GSH's health/def/res is also another possible, albeit blander way of getting them to feel stronger

#

Steadfast would fit the player power thing more, but I'm honestly tired of seeing Steadfast in so many classes

wispy phoenix
#

hmm another option for endless is QC blood pact 3 which would bring it to about 4.5M1, but still probably worse than ultima because it cant crit

sinful sluice
#

I'd prefer higher base stats to both batallions or steadfast, but I don't think a lot of people would agree with me on that

spark plover
sinful sluice
#

I'm personally still trying to figure out what does this version of GS do better than the others

spark plover
sinful sluice
#

Dungeon Speed is probably higher for non anguish now

spark plover
#

Yeah sure, it'd be like GSA's but hey, this one gets hit way more often than its counterpart

wispy phoenix
sinful sluice
#

Oh yeah, the one summon downside doesn't harm them in live pvp, good point

wispy phoenix
#

I would prefer steadfast for dungeons, but if you do amorri or great anguish batallions is nice. Stats are nice everywhere

sinful sluice
#

And yeah, this GSH is definitely better at raiding than base GS or GSA at lower ascension levels

#

that much is for sure

wispy phoenix
#

I geuss I'd prefer steadfast though, seems to be the strongest passive in live pvp and dungeons where gsh is probably at its best

limpid walrus
#

I think in addition to batallions 1 it would be kinda cool to have a like 25% chance sacrifice pet last chance

#

Or less

#

Batallions 1 definitely helps survivability. I like where these changes are headed tho. Tried out GSH Eos and saw some potential

hidden zealot
#
  • Coupled Essence -> Paired Essence II IV
  • No Battalions -> Battalions I

No protection except for follower but get 2 summons to follow around instead.

wispy phoenix
#

damn Im actually getting 400k+ mage dances as gsh now

spark plover
#

Tried it out at Towers yet?

wispy phoenix
#

not yet

restive kernel
wispy phoenix
#

66 in beta but yeah

#

but regarding paired essence. I think full paired essence 4 could be OP in endless. Then with a quickcast blood pact 3 build you're looking at an M1 of ~8, that's pretty ridiculous. Most reasonable solution to me seems make it summon 2 summons initially, but only 1 on subsequent dungeon floors (maybe annoying to program tho). That would fix the issues in raids and towers but not make endless too strong

spark plover
wispy phoenix
#

thats double ultima m1

restive kernel
#

oh btw.. are there any plans about mirror accounts to the beta?

#

I heard that last time there was a list

sinful sluice
#

Mirrors are labour intensive for the studio and can't always be given out

spark plover
sinful sluice
#

if no announcement was made, expect no mirrors

spark plover
#

With BP, just kill the two squishier than usual summons and you'll be fine

#

So in the context of PE2, that's an Ultima with a shutdown button

#

You miss, either you or the summon dies, when that happens, there's no realistic way of getting through the floor other than Ultima; at that point, why even bother with BP?

wispy phoenix
#

just theorycrafting here with PE4 endless to see if it would be broken.
arisen riftrogue helmet (5% miss reduct)
arisen riftrogue chest (5)
arisen rift boots (7 estimated)
arisen riftstaff (15)
celestial staff with 5 oceanus lungs
4% miss chance amity

91% hit chance 8.0 M1 spell mimic

hidden zealot
#

Does GSH get alot more dex?

spark plover
#

Would you really want to rely on a GSH summon, by far the weakest of all 3 GS variants, to try and do a follow-up? Not banking on the follower since they're pretty random at the hands of non-Beos

wispy phoenix
spark plover
#

Zerk Nidhogg

#

Zerk Beo

wispy phoenix
#

I do agree that currently with PE2 you're better off using ultima on gsh

spark plover
#

The Beo is most likely the worst offender, having a much more active defending follower

wispy phoenix
#

but going from PE2 to PE4 is more than a 2x jump for gsh. Not only does that double your damage, it also reduces the chance you get hit and it also ensures that at least 1 summon survives if the enemy kills a summon

spark plover
#

You waste a BP with follower defending → Beo has enough skills on its move set to easily kill AD → Bam! Run ends/just use Ultima

spark plover
wispy phoenix
#

yeah I agree with that part

#

but I think that adding PE4 to current gsh would propel it to one of the top endless classes. You have a way shorter setup than normal gs, your main damage spell quickcast blood pact 3 has twice the M1 of ultima (which is currently used by heretic and deity ara and is already one of the fastest orn endless options) and doesnt require you to lose stats by building into crit, and you have 2 meatshields to soak up hits that respawn every floor (if we assume enemies targeting is fully random, that would mean you only have a 1/3 chance to get hit).

spark plover
#

Isn't the playstyle of GSH higher risk for higher reward?

#

Just gut Battalions 1 in exchange

wispy phoenix
#

well with 2 meatshields it's not even high risk compared to non gs classes

spark plover
#

Enemies prioritize you much more due to one of the previous patches

#

Those 2 summons might as well be a Parapet

#

Also, with GSH's summon stats, they're not really meat shields

wispy phoenix
spark plover
#

Wait a sec

#

With one auto-summon

#

They can bring back Ascended Summons

#

YOOO

#

ASCENDED SUMMONS👀👀

wispy phoenix
#

honestly no

unborn timber
#

AL200 GS:

wispy phoenix
#

its only going to be better than pe4 at the start of the battle for ridiculous al players

#

and that brings back the quadratic scaling problem

past jolt
#

My thoughts as an AL 15 GS with nearly best in slot gear:
Raids
-1 summon at start just slows down the absurd setup time even more, battalions are really nice though, so this might make gsh a faster (and equally as safe) raiding class than base GS Ultima for me

Non anguish horde
-this is where these changes shine the most, I'll probably be near the level of deity for non anguish horde

Endless
There is absolutely no way gsh endless is better than the regular GS endless setup at y AL, so no comment

Towers
I probably won't Be able to comfortably run towers compared to other GS variants, due to having one summon at the start only

Overall thoughts:
-Paired essence 2 feels a bit awkward, but for the tradeoff of getting souls passively in dungeons, it's probably a positive change overall
-battalions is nice for raiding, but I'd much rather have an easier way to get my summons out, or another defensive passive, either just more stats, or steadfast(possibly scaling with souls for extra flavor so it's not just steadfast?)

spark plover
# wispy phoenix its only going to be better than pe4 at the start of the battle for ridiculous a...

See, the issue right now is that with PE2, BP has too large a drawback, and with PE4, as you said, it'd be too strong, and only an idiot would think PE3 would be the solution with its RNG

Ascended Summons would get to have the lower defenses for a defined weakness (since 1 summon) while also enabling power that needs you to actually invest on it, instead of doubling the power immediately with PE4; it'd also address PE2's issue in that the summon can be easily shutdown since with ALs, you can work your way to mitigating that

spark plover
# wispy phoenix and that brings back the quadratic scaling problem

As for the quadratic scaling problem, I think taking away or nerfing it now when so many people have sunk enough time and resources for classes and builds with those would net quite a negative reception. Addressing it now with this would still have the others remain to make up for a boring meta; a much more effective solution for this would not be to nerf the player stuff but instead create effective countermeasures on the enemy/environment side of things, although that's a different topic that this thread isn't suitable for

sinful sluice
#

One should never really consider "nerfing this when so many people have already used it" as a counterargument for nerfing something

#

Just because it has existed for a year doesn't mean we can't prevent it from existing in the ten future years

spark plover
sinful sluice
#

the best time to nerf quadratic scaling was a while ago, the second best time is now, etc etc

sinful sluice
spark plover
#

And afaik, we've received no word since then when that's actually going to happen

wispy phoenix
#

I still believe the idea of paired essence initially providing 2 summons, but only 1 on subsequent floors is a better solution than either PE4 or ascended summons:

  • Orn endless would remain as it is right now (probably a worse version of heretic / deity ara) which is fine given that GSA is already a good endless class
  • Non anguish Dungeons would stay as they are now, gsh already does well there
  • Would fix the issue of only starting with 1 summon in raids currently, this is imo very bad for quick pact builds. The fastest gsh blood pact build I could find before didnt summon anything at all and just relied on the 2 starting summons and tmm+aaru robe, but thats not possible anymore
  • Would also provide more safety in towers which is probably necessary (not sure tho havent tried it there)
safe wyvern
#

This would be something for another part IDK how easyly it would be done but... PE4 would be acceptable IMO if we had a HP only scale to summons, it would take a great hit the summons damage but it would be more useful for support summons and damage for BP
Please add chained Pact (Chained shield but for GSH)

#

I dont think raid setup would take a hit because of the volatile condition of summon dead and you just achylis pact only makesa summon alive and sacrifice II none... so... i think the only offender is the tower setup that is slower now (chained pact would mitigate it :3 )

#

Im not considering ultima GSH cause it is just Heretic at home heretic

spark plover
#

Small thing but please, make melee weapons equippable for GSH

#

We've too much classes branching out, preferring MD already and not enough classes for Sweep

pine topaz
#

What about removing battalions and bringing back elysium guidelight or would that be too broken

past jolt
#

Elysian guidelight is out of the question

#

It would completely break endless and it's also not the direction the studio is trying to head gsh

#

Which is a player damage based class, not reliant on summons

pine topaz
wispy phoenix
#

right now the damage is underwhelming ngl

#

but let me check it

#

too bad I dont have a upgraded arisen terror on this beta char lol

pine topaz
#

If we go with the whole mage dance horde sweep method i feel like it may be too similar to the hera method for horde dungeons, it would help slightly to differentiate between the 2 if there was an aoe pact.

wispy phoenix
#

qc ultima with dc up: ~1M (2.4 with weakness). Qc bp3 with same buffs: about 440M. Right now ultima is definitely the better option for orn endless I think. This was with mimic head, court jester, riftrogue boots, questing staff and celestial staff

#

25 acc amity

pine topaz
#

Thats with base gs right?

wispy phoenix
#

gsh

#

yeah ultima is just that strong even without elysian balance mimic

coral pawn
#

First glance from the raiding perspective i prefer PE4 over PE2 cause of the same reasons i didn't like PE3.
Turn economy and consistency are things ppl were looking for and PE2 and Battalions 1 are neither.
However if we're going with that setting up the Hydrus passive does require either Achlys or Sac Pact so you'll loose all but one summon anyway.
So it seems that GSO takes the spot of the fast raider and GSH is here for the long run. To support that

  • increase summon stats, those t8 SStats don't withstand dragged out battles
  • Battalions > Steadfast, to not get interrupted going through the lengthy setup

Towers it still does nearly equal the CS dmg as GSA but way less summon dmg.
It's possible but slower.
Having a follower backing up your ward is nice.

Non Anguish horde is so smooth now, love it. PE2 doesn't hurt here but i'd prefer Steadfast during the setup here too instead of Battalions.

Also it can CS Anguish50 Boss Horde now.

PvP is unchanged. A 30% SStat amity is enough to bring AD so 113k HP so nearly cap.

wispy phoenix
#

honestly Im not even sure if gsh takes the spot of long raider. I guess long raids are amorri, great anguish and other realms stuff mainly right? I think the issue with gsh there is going to be survivability. Base gs can use a glass cannon build and usually get pretty far through the sheer power of rng. Gsh has an increased chance to get hit and your summons die much quicker with gsh as well which further increases the risk.

coral pawn
#

Also i really liked CE as a concept of summoning trash fast to fuel pacts.
What kinda irritates me is that we're moving away from pacts with lowering SStats and PE2 making them kinda inefficient except for very long raids or PvP offense. The only thing holding it together is the inherited pact multiplier.

Contoversial and atm purely for discussion's sake, get away from BP on Hydrus and focus on another way of dealing dmg not taking summons HP into account ||explosion pact||.

pine topaz
#

With pvp though you ideally want to end it turn one if im doing it the same as any other hydrus user. In bof pe2 doesnt effect it, but thats fine due to the 50% limit rule, however in standard pvp without pe4 it will be a significant downgrade (in my opinion anyway)

coral pawn
pine topaz
# wispy phoenix honestly Im not even sure if gsh takes the spot of long raider. I guess long rai...

I do agree base gs if better for raiding at some point (more work needed to build but better payoff) but atm with new alterations im not risking gsh against an long raid as without 2 summons at the start or battalions, (even with a pet) the damage will be lower (per unit of time) and at that point id just switch to something like beo where i can have 170k ward and my garm doing 1,2,3 mil a turn. If anything id like to have something to really make me choose to use gsh but with the beta changes currently however much i love the class i cant justify it

coral pawn
pine topaz
coral pawn
#

Now you have the hope to not get killed by having a follower blocking.

pine topaz
#

What's the math on that compared to battalions out of curiosity.

wispy phoenix
#

nobody even knows the math on batallions mimic

coral pawn
#

It was like 10% on Battalions 3

#

GSH only has 2

#

With 5 summons out

#

So i'd not count on it

#

Ever

pine topaz
#

Ive never really had a follower protect apart fdom on beo though but that might just be awful luck

wispy phoenix
#

it was closer to 50% for batallions 3 no? The ~10% figure was only for pvp iirc

coral pawn
#

Yes for PvP ofc thought that was the topic

pine topaz
#

How bout giving it an increased follower protection passive rather than batallions i?

coral pawn
#

I'd rather be able to tank hits consistently than trading one RNG defense for another, wich i am btw in PvE
#1219672026160042118 message

#

But again, now GSH only uses BP during PvP/AI offense and in very long raids.

pine topaz
#

And endless, which is pretty effective if you chuck out 5 dragons with auriga then just use as fuel and protection while you spam bp1 and lp2

coral pawn
#

I'm talking about current beta GSH

wispy phoenix
pine topaz
#

Endless could still be a thing just not entirely reliable and more rng based, if you use something like a arisen stonewarg

#

Just more handy now you dont have to use life pact and meter fills up automatically

coral pawn
#

Maybe but does this justify an inherited pact multiplier?
I mean we want to bring the power to the player and away from summons by weakening the summons and decrease their numbers but by doing so we cut the main dmg source BP (which is atm bolstered by a whole passive) so decrease players power.
Imo the cat bites its tail.
We can't buff summons to increase BP dmg.
We can't weaken summons too much or else BP becomes irrelevant.

So i ask again.
Should we move away from BP and/or the GSH pact multiplier and either add another pact independent from SHP or add a different GSH passive not focused on pacts thus BP?

brisk sentinel
#

Should BP just be based on # of summons?
Based on using your own hp?

#

Also, fun idea:
Soul Link: when damaged, X% of damage is given to your summons instead.
Instead of rng battalions. Very unique, and can help charge the souls passive.

cold crag
#

explode pact is an exciting idea. sacrifices a summon (at least one summon needed), but doesn't care about summon HP.
damage based on mag, and all the scaling passives that go along with that (raw stats from scaling passive, +pact effect).
can be introduced somewhat early in the summoner tree, also, before summonHP gets big.

plus it has a nice mini-build where heretics/other casters can run a summoner-follower pet and use explode pact for damage. wouldn't outdamage ultima.

#

a new skill/line is probably out of scope but... well, maybe not. something to think about.

makes GSH a good pact user (just not BP).
gives GSH a good way to kill summons to scale his passive (while damaging e.g. a raid).
makes early summoners get a taste of pacting (which they don't currently).
makes summoner-followers better (for gsh and other casters).

coral pawn
#

Maybe not for the whole classline but GSH and Summoner Hydrus who's still looking for a purpose.

  • SH - Exploding Pact I, sacrifice a random summon to deal moderate dmg to an opponent
  • GSH - Exploding Pact II, sacrifice all summons to deal massive dmg per summon sacrificed to an opponent, can break dmg cap
spark plover
#

Is touted as the best Pact user

Needs a mechanic previously inaccessible to it to do so

#

Kinda find that part funny, anyway, GSH should be best at pacts innately, no follower, and even without the Hydrus passive

coral pawn
#

Ye but with BP working like that we cannot decouple it from SStats and thus we have a problem.

#

Unless it's not the only dmg dealing pact.

spark plover
#

If we made BP scale from just Pact Effectiveness and Magic, GSH would most likely win against GS pact-wise

coral pawn
#

It would open up the spell for anybody, not a bad thing just thinking about it.

spark plover
#

True but it'd be like the Keith case, anyone could use the strat but the best user of it would be classes that have the necessary stats innately (GSA in the given example, and GSH in this context)

coral pawn
#

Tbh i'd rather like to see variety in dmg pacts than a BP change.
More tools to choose from.

spark plover
#

Yeah, but having that for this patch is very, very unlikely

#

For now, we should aim for betterment of what we have to work with until the next rework using existing mechanics and/or simple calculation changes

coral pawn
#

Maybe it is. That's not on us to decide.
I mean with Sac Pact I/II the sacrificing part is already there.
However the core problem we're circling around would be solved.
SStat independent pact dmg.
No more worries about how strong/ numerous summons should be in order to somewhat maintain BP damage and w/o making summons too strong for a player centered class.

past jolt
#

So what are the general thoughts? We all like the changes for horde I'm guessing

#

But we dont like that raiding is still long and inconsistent?

#

That's my take atleast

pine topaz
# coral pawn Maybe but does this justify an inherited pact multiplier? I mean we want to brin...

It is annoying as unless you team up with an Auriga for a raid and use beithir you can't really hit high with bp really quickly, also the pact multiplier is still useful outside of bp for lp. The idea of another damaging pact does solve this issue. Could i suggest, something like exploding contract which is a weaker but aoe version to solve the horde issue (does take into account pact multiplier)

pine topaz
past jolt
#

I'm actually thinking about this and

#

When the hell does gsh use life pact lol

#

it has pact effectiveness but you literally never need to use life pact lol

wispy phoenix
#

To heal gsa summons mimic

past jolt
#

We need more pacts that my 2 cents honestly, otherwise I said all my thoughts on these new changes here #1219672026160042118 message

pine topaz
spark plover
coral pawn
spark plover
# past jolt When the hell does gsh use life pact lol

Life Pact should be a field effect rather than a one-and-done skill

Instead of having it heal summons in exchange for your health, have it take 1/2/3% of your health per turn when active - when summons die (counts for souls), they're revived and heal back to 10/20/30%.

#

That way, GSA can't abuse it since for it to be fully utilized, summons have to die

coral pawn
# spark plover That and Towers nerf

Towers is kinda solid, dmg is nearly as good as GSA, having a warding follower makes it somewhat safe and having one or two t8 SStat summons doesn't really make a difference since they won't kill anything anyway.

spark plover
#

Honestly, in order to boost GSH to player level while also keeping its identity with pacts (so as to not need yet another rework), we need more background skill mechanics; mechanics such as

  • Field Effect like the Life Pact above
  • Summon sickness where you can instantly summon but the summons can't attack for turns = # of cast time
  • Auto summoning in-battle
  • Sac Pacts reworked to have one of them be a stance-like skill that dooms succeeding summons after its cast (Doom # = # of turns the summon takes without GSH effect)
    So on and so forth
#

That along with newer Pacts such as Exploding Pact as was pitched above

spark plover
past jolt
#

Yes honestly that one is really great

#

I just want raids to not feel this slow in the summoning phase lol

#

Other classes have a buff phase-> damage phase

#

gsh needs to buff, stack the passive, summon and then start dealing damage

#

and the turns it takes to get 4 arisen dragons out and sacrifice 10 summons usually doesn't make up for the higher damage you would have compared to other classes (talking about low AL), and the decreased survivability you have

coral pawn
past jolt
#

Yes that makes sense, I'm just kinda disappointed gsh gets "improved pacts" as a passive when in 90% of cases that's just blood pact

#

The same way gilga gets improved spiked shield, but that isn't a passive lol

coral pawn
past jolt
#

Well I'm all for adding more pacts if thats within the scope of this rework

#

I still think just making summons a 1 turn cast would solve most of the issues right now without making gsh broken though

pine topaz
#

Coupled essence with base 50% instant summon would have solved the issue.

pine topaz
#

So pact ideas: as previously stated explosive pact I and II (mabye name it something unstable pact or volatile pact as explosive isnt very orna-ry)

New ideas: regeneration pact (from nasu and monsa) takes a percentage of health per turn to heal all summons. Activates like a stance so can be turned on and off by casting the spell.

From me:
Judgement pact (sacrifices character health to deal damage)
Elysium pact (deals light and dark damage sacrificing one summon. 2 summons sacrificed for elysium pact 2. One is given to sh and 2 to gsh)

coral pawn
#

Before exploring many, many more possible pacts i'd rather wait if that's what the studio is willing to go with.
Simply to keep the channel nice n clean.

past jolt
#

yep yep maybe make another compilation message for odie to see?

coral pawn
#

Yes ofc. Update is out for like 17hrs now. Will give others a little more time to test n comment too before setting smth up👍

sinful sluice
#

I personally find it a little odd/disappointing(?) that the way to "fix" Hydrus is to give it new spells, since that did not seem to be Odie's intention

#

The simpler way to make pacts on hydrus keep up with pacts on base summoner is to give it ascended pacts (instead of ascended summons) and call it a day

#

I understand that it brings up the problem of quadratic scaling again, but that problem's not going anywhere, nor is hydrus going to keep up with base otherwise, until that problem is dealt with at the root

#

so my personal vote for what would fix it, while giving minimal (I hope) work, would be ascended pacts

#

and then when the quadratic scaling pass comes, if it comes

#

it gets removed on both ends

#

if both summoners lose quadratic scaling, after all, hydrus will come out on top no matter what

coral pawn
#

As i got it the intention is to shift the power away from summons to the player.
The hurdle is that the main/only dmg pact atm draws its power from said summons. So with the current version of GSH either

  • further tweak the pact empowering passive like AL for Pacts
  • add another dmg pact decoupled from quality summons thus Sstats
  • add fast summoning to GSH to make up quality with quantity

Or another option i did not yet thought fully through

  • let go of pacts and the pact enhancing passive on GSH and add one that influences all spells/skills
wispy phoenix
pine topaz
#

I don't think letting go of pacts will be popular as people have given time and materials into their pact builds

coral pawn
#

The only thing GSH has going for BP is the 1.6x pact multiplier.
Changing it to another passive concerning all skills/spells would still enable them to use BP, less efficient ofc, but'd open all other spells/skills.
But ye i can see that being very controversial.

past jolt
#

Not a fan of that suggestion, but any of the other 3 you said earlier would make hydrus a lot more enjoyable

safe wyvern
#

Maybe nerfing BP and Adding power to Hydrus on its passive? Axe like 20% of its base and up the passive to 2x to compensate and add a "collateral damage" type of style
Since GS have already ascended summons, it will take more time for it to get to GSH level and it will add some QoL to GSH and we wont need to create another skill for AoE since GSH have 1 summon

#

It would only make a 7% difference in damage with a celestial weapon adding pact power addictively so 7% to get a chance to 2 mobs is a worth trade

#

There is some gear that does that if i'm not mistaken (the dual attack stuff) it could stack with bp on hydrus and it wont make GS bp more powerful hitting more adds + summons having more power

cold crag
rocky acorn
#

How about decreasing the bonus from al so it's not too high?
Don't know the actual numbers but for example
Instead of the +1% to mag per AL that we have now.
We will get 0.8% to mag (other stats still gets the 1%) AND 0.2-0.4 to summons stats per AL.

Also because the Hydrus will get less mag than other classes, the Hydrus will become more pact spells focus. (although he has puny mag state, the beefier summons will compensate). And it will open a path for introducing new pact spells that can make the Hydrus even more pact and summons related spells focused
I think it could be interesting.

coral pawn
# pulsar steppe Today's updates: * Coupled Essence -> Paired Essence II * No Battalions -> Batt...

Edit 1

Post 27.03. Update

Overall Feedback

The big winner of this update is by far normal/horde dungeoning. All agree that charging the passive and thus the setup is super smooth now.
Ppl are most concerned about raiding's setup being lengthened due to PE2 and GSH falling back as a player dmg class due to BPs (AL) scaling.
#1219672026160042118 message
#1219672026160042118 message
#1219672026160042118 message
#1219672026160042118 message

Additional/repeating suggestions

GSH as a Pact class

  • AL pacts
    🕒 (dev time friendly)
    #1219672026160042118 message
    #1219672026160042118 message
  • New dmg pact detached from summon's HP
    🗣️(highly requested)
    #1219672026160042118 message
    #1219672026160042118 message
    #1219672026160042118 message

Faster/more convenient setup phase

  • Faster summoning
    #1219672026160042118 message
    #1219672026160042118 message
  • Summoning sickness instead of turns
    #1219672026160042118 message
    #1219672026160042118 message

Original summary post
#1219672026160042118 message
Edit 0.5
#1219672026160042118 message

#

Edit 2
#1219672026160042118 message
Edit 2.5
#1219672026160042118 message

@pulsar steppe ☝️
@sinful sluice pls pin🙂

#

Also edited main summary post and crossed out tackled concerns.

violet drum
#

would quotes not work better than links for the summary feedback posts? or some other way? having it scroll back, discord being terrible at highlighting the actual post that was linked, then needing to "jump to present" to get back to the summary. all the jumping around makes it super unplesant to look through

sinful sluice
#

Quotes make the condensed information aggregate a lot less condensed. Plus a lot of the thing about ORN is that we gotta make sure we're not pulling sources out of our ass, and that these are real things said by real people

coral pawn
#

Could do that. Would become a big block. Will do tho if the main audience wants it🤔

violet drum
#

don't quotes collapase and are expandable?

coral pawn
#

Dunno show me🙂
I mean to be super safe i'd have to add the source beneath every quote too😅

coral pawn
#

don't quotes collapase and are expandable?
don't quotes collapase and are expandable?

#

That's all i know.

violet drum
#

yah its not working unless using a text file, maybe i had it mixed up with slack or some server with custom markdown, pitiful discord.

coral pawn
#

I saw that @tacit shoal

wispy phoenix
#

I wonder if it would be possible to test PE4 on gsh to see if it's actually too strong in endless or not. Im in favor of PE4 on gsh in all content, just that it might be too strong in endless on paper with bp3 (mainly the m1). However at the moment there is just no reason to use bp in endless as gsh. Ultima has roughly the same M1 as bp3 with 1 summon, can crit and has the weakness multiplier so it's ~2x as strong on average.

#

without PE4 now the raiding is pretty rough

past jolt
#

for me its basically the same as the first turns are to charge up hydrus passive

#

but its still too slow so i prefer ultima over blood pact anyway

#

because summoning takes too long

wispy phoenix
#

yeah sure, but even with ultima having another summon would help

past jolt
#

it would help but just getting another summon wont make the raids not feel like a hassle

wispy phoenix
#

right now gsh is significantly less safe but it's not really faster than base gs for ultima either

past jolt
#

im still an advocate for the coupled essence suggestion honestly its going to fix so much lol

#

fix raiding so much*

#

and blood pact endless sounds unique but its honestly always going to be either better than ultima or worse so like

#

better than ultima is just broken

#

and worse there is no point to do it

#

sooo 🤷

wispy phoenix
#

#1219672026160042118 message

with this months event gear at least PE4 bp3 gsh was very good in raiding, most likely better than base gs at lower al

past jolt
#

yeah but right now thats just 1 summon slower of a setup

#

which if riftlocks proc is just 1 turn more

#

thing iss yeah i dont need to repeat myself

wispy phoenix
# past jolt better than ultima is just broken

it doesnt need to be better, but it was nice if it was at least somewhat comparable. Now we are basically budget heretics spamming md in horde dungeons, doing ultima for raids because we start with 1 summon and also doing endless with ultima

wispy phoenix
past jolt
#

would be fixed with new pacts xd

wispy phoenix
#

which are not happening lets be real

#

I want to believe but at this stage in the beta it seems unlikely

past jolt
#

yeah welp

#

all i want improved from current version of gsh is an easier way to get summons out

#

a more unique passive would be cool but just a static 50% insta summon chance would do it honestly

rocky acorn
#

I still think strengthening the summons each al, but lowering the mag bonus to 0.8 -0.5 it is now for each al could make it balanced.

And will anchor the summoner to pact and summons based spells
Because the damage will be good, even great for BP
But the damage from other spells will go down due to less mag than other mages.

wispy phoenix
#

the thing is, pacts right now are not versatile enough to do all content. You need aoe to do dungeons fast and right now your only option is pretty much bard or zweifencer. You also need pseudo aoe for stuff like towers (so ara vesta 2 or chained shield). If you nerf the stats by that much the class would become a lot worse in the content where you can't use BP due to it being limited to single targets. If you were to do something like that, you need to introduce new spells/pacts to cover for those weaknesses or gsh will just become useless for that content

#

gsh becoming a budget heretic is partially due to the fact that it doesn't have any new pacts that allow it to do horde stuff, and since so much content in the game is horde you are essentially forced to play like a heretic if you want to be efficient

rocky acorn
#

I totally agree, I thing what I suggested should be introduced with at least an aoe pact.

But if they want to make the Hydrus more summons sacrificing and pact magic focused... We need more pacts.
Or beefier summons.

It will fix the issue that improving summons states and mag each al is too broken.

coral pawn
wispy phoenix
#

true, and I really like that idea

#

at the same time I dont think we should move away from current pacts entirely either

#

would be cool if those explode pacts had different use cases

coral pawn
#

Building a boader arsenal is definitely preferred

wispy phoenix
#

maybe the explode pacts for short content (towers,monument etc) with a pseudo aoe option and bp for long content or content where you need high M1 like long raids, OR and endless?

coral pawn
#

That's what i thought about explode pact for quick dmg (semi AoE🤞)/stacking the passive and BP as the big gun.

spring root
#

Maybe it's worth asking NF to enable it in beta for a little, just too see

spark plover
#

So...is that it?

#

Cool

wispy phoenix
plain niche
#

dw you can just hoc to keith nasu

spark plover
plain niche
#

you won this one mate 🫡

coral pawn
#

I just wondered how long y'all can hold your breath

20240318_142936.png
#

And in love to see Pie Sporran becoming better at pixeling

wispy phoenix
#

hahaha thats not my pixel art sorry

#

its sporrans work

#

@hushed mantle the aspiring pixel artist

spark plover
coral pawn
#

Koma's Fallen GS?

spark plover
#

Oh

#

Well, I guess I was an idiot twice

spark plover
safe wyvern
#

When I saw deity chat having 2x the syze of this one I just thought they diverged some resources to Deity cause shit happened and after april 1st Ietting them cook

sinful sluice
#

Deity is too diverse, so there are plenty of diverse players

#

People who want different things from Deity

#

and as such, hard to find a consensus

safe wyvern
#

And I think everyone passionate for GSH have already made its piece here xD so we wait :3

#

Not everyone but everyone that uses discord xD

safe wyvern
sinful sluice
#

I can't answer for NF
Regardless, unless we have actual feedback to write here, we shouldn't write here any longer.

sinful garnet
safe wyvern
#

One thing... summoner hydrus still have its passive to move monsters from floor to floor

Screenshot_20240405-151943_Orna_BETA.jpg
#

The way it is it would make T9 just better than T10 for the cheese mightiest_mimic

spark plover
safe wyvern
#

Summon 5 with GSA or GS + Benefactor and switch to GH instead of GSH (which is the reason for the GSH rework)

plain niche
#

Um no

#

I think the reason for the rework was bc gsh wasSterance

safe wyvern
#

Imo it is to avoidnthis kind of situation and it is justifiable, but if GH stays like this we just change the T10 to the T9

#

This is the T10 from live game with 32 AL only qnd I not even tried much

#

It would be a little bit less but it would still be the same problem with T9 beta

plain niche
#

I think normal boss Mode looks like that for everyone tho

safe wyvern
#

I know but the way BP works it doesnt care for serk enemies or not so you are an auriga that can kill serks easyly basically

plain niche
#

Zerks are easy at non anguish

safe wyvern
#

If it wasnt a problem they wouldnt just erase the passive for GSH

plain niche
#

The problem is that with guided light+ follower+ snapshotting Will destroy endless

safe wyvern
plain niche
#

I know its bc they removed guided light. But the reason is that follower+guidedlight gives too much power To one class

pulsar steppe
#

Changes will likely trickle down to T9 when they are finished in T10. Let’s wait out the next beta update then discuss some more

spark plover
#

???

#

I might be missing something, base GS would be even better if it's just pacts

plain niche
#

I still dont know why sh over gs

#

The fact that gs is better at doing pacts than gsh In high al

wispy phoenix
#

thats only the case with no snapshotting. But in endless you can snapshot gsa summons and benefit from the gsh pact bonus

plain niche
#

but wouldnt ultima still be better tho

safe wyvern
#

But anyway odie told us it will have the change too so... lets just wait

plain niche
#

Idk I dont get it

wispy phoenix
plain niche
#

Afaik gsh Lost guidelight bc it got A follower. Why sh did not lose it yet is bc it did not get A follower so it wasnt needed.

wispy phoenix
# plain niche but wouldnt ultima still be better tho

I think it depends. For orn farming as gsh (why would you do that tho), ultima seemed better to me because you dont have to micromanage summon hp. But some people use gsh for life pact heals to heal gsa summons, and some people have used gsh with blood pact using gsa summons to get very far in endless because of the huge M1 bp has

safe wyvern
#

I generally starts as GSA and after floor 300+ I switch to GSH and keep killing the difficult mobs until 500/600 with full farm gear, except for the main hand amd it is way more than the normal setup for most classes with not a lot of AL

pulsar steppe
#

Today's update:

  • Hello, Hydrus Pact
cunning marlin
#

🗿

violet drum
#

doesn't seem to be active yet?

sinful sluice
#

Can in fact confirm the absense of a hydrus pact

#

Hyped though 👀

coral pawn
#

Oh my god all the silent anticipation the past few days is killing merip

#

Got it rolling testing rn, it is summon HP independant

pine topaz
#

Yipeee

Screenshot_20240409-202624.png
plain niche
#

Rip

sinful sluice
#

Honestly the damage is not SUPER far off being useable

#

Okay, maybe it is a liittle far

plain niche
#

John try that with eos

sinful sluice
#

Considering it costs the entire field

sinful sluice
pine topaz
#

It doesnt appear to be aoe so currently i feel like just spamming bp2 or mage dance from charmer would be better currently but ill let others see if it is better

plain niche
#

It actually could work bc eos does summon More summon so you dont need To spend time on that

sinful sluice
#

I'm seeing this move more of as a way to kill your summons in raiding scenarios while dealing damahe

#

As opposed to the previous sacrificial pacts that killed them to no benefit

#

It also deals damage agnostically from summon HP, so summon dead does work well with it

pine topaz
sinful sluice
plain niche
#

Hmmh

sinful sluice
#

Plenty of towerfalls in the mix

cold crag
pine topaz
#

Eos is alright with our deminished stats but at this point still better to do auriga/bene swap to hydrus/sequencer and then hit for massive damage on a difficult endless floor

cold crag
#

if you have any valhallan quetz gear, or selene heart(?) in celestial weapon

pine topaz
#

Then swap back and resummon

sinful sluice
#

The damage is not good considering one needs to fill the board between casts, so it's a SD+SD+Hydrus Pact rotation

#

For ~1m damage at AL50 with DC and snotra

#

Wearing pact boosters

cold crag
#

lms, I'll try something

pine topaz
#

The best way is dead and u fortunately base is around 20-30k damage no buff no pact gear

sinful sluice
pine topaz
#

But hydrus dont have no smart ai😓

sinful sluice
#

Not to mention that killing the board leaves the summoner very vulnerable. But it isn't as bad as it used to be, what with the pet and the stat boosts combined

pine topaz
#

What i would feel this would be good with is does damage directly proportional to the % of the hydrus passive

sinful sluice
#

All of this being said, it is still a cool move, and I think it would be appreciated with a bit more tweaking in the damage department

pine topaz
cold crag
#

so +4 smartAI (3 piece quetz, one selene heart) and eos is summoning every turn. damage with suboptimal gear is fairly low at ~9k single cast base no buffs

pine topaz
#

Also because the main worry was due to deminished stat we needed a pact that deals damage independently to summon hp if we wanted a follower but now we have another hp pact with does the opposite. However still thrilled we got a new move

sinful sluice
#

Same gear, but on GSO

#

No DC, no stat passive, only starting summons

#

1.4m damage

pine topaz
#

Ah

sinful sluice
#

Versus hydrus' 1.25m damage

pine topaz
#

What about on auriga do the summon hp balance the pact ineffectiveness

cold crag
#

interestingly, dualcast hydrus pact does double damage but doesn't cost more summons/fail to deal damage on the second cast 😅

sinful sluice
#

BP3 takes 2 turns to cast, Hydrus takes at least 3 turns on rotation

sinful sluice
cold crag
#

M1/2 seem a bit low if twin blast is dealing close to the same damage. What am I missing here

Screenshot_2024-04-09-14-43-32-61_c674975fb11e1c4e1186ab56d2da889b.jpg
#

let me improve the gear rq. pact helmet, pact augs at the very least

pine topaz
sinful sluice
#

Nah

#

Summon Dead is turn 1 always

#

And always summons at least 2 skeletons

pine topaz
#

However cant guarantee that they wont die same turn hence damage down

sinful sluice
#

Most things don't have AoE

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But yeah

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They are pretty squish

pine topaz
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But say horde dungeon 3-4 per floor that basically could wipe them out if each attacked

sinful sluice
#

Oh you are absolutely not using this on horde dungeons

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0%

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Impossible

pine topaz
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Could be applied into 50 anguish hard

sinful sluice
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No way josé

cold crag
#

certainly better. 5arms celestial + nekro + pact helmet takes the damage way up as expected. going down to 2 +smartAI, eos still seems to summon reliably every turn.

pine topaz
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Still not better than bp2 though single turn decent damage

plain niche
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Its not suposed To be better than bp2

cold crag
#

trying to imagine raiding with it, in a long-form raid.
this charges the GSH passive as you go, reliable damage every turn.

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it may be the case that the best way to raid is still ultima, but you get to hydrus pact twice to charge the passive intermixed in there somewhere, as a stat buff.

pine topaz
pine topaz
cold crag
#

this setup isn't that squishy. if I wasn't double staff it'd be downright pleasant (good ward%, okay defenses, 2x stat passive).

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does hinge a lot on having quetz gear to enable autosummoning.

sinful sluice
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The setup is squishy on the summons. But with eos I suppose that point is moot

plain niche
cold crag
#

rather, making the summoner-follower do stuff.

plain niche
#

Charging the passive while doing some decent dmg In the process

sinful sluice
#

Do think the damage could use a little boost, but otherwise seems decently useable for raiding with a summoner follower

cold crag
#

compared to sacpact2 (and not needing a heal from that), it's a sheer upgrade. there's something close to damage that can be built around. ||of course in a world of ultima, it's hard to imagine dealing any real damage as a caster with anything else 😛 ||

sinful sluice
#

Which to be fair requires event gear for AI and a 300k shards pet

cold crag
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eos is the best summoner-follower for this because she has the most unique summon spells (big AI boost) and the protect%/DC are great.
but other summoner-followers should suffice for the goal of producing things to HPact.

plain niche
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Very expensive Pet with little use 😅

cold crag
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... it has a use here? 🤷‍♂️

sinful sluice
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Definitely the best pet in this scenario

pine topaz
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So basically starter hydrus pack, 650k tower shards, quetz gear amd a dream

plain niche
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Yup

cold crag
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starter would be: GSH unlock, onryo or something, and quetz to show up at some point for 1-piece gear.

plain niche
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Maybe even ophion?

cold crag
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end goal raiding... still seems like baseGS ultima, or super ascended GS BP.

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which is probably fine, I guess. I mean I can't stand Ultima because it's been years and years of seeing the same spell blowing up everything, but having an "I win" button works for newbies.

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I highly doubt the goal of this patch/this change for GSH is to rock the Ultima boat.

pine topaz
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This is technically our exploding summon idea just less flashy

wispy phoenix
cold crag
#

anyone have a pre-ascension, pre-245 comparison? for hydrus pact vs. other options, that is.

wispy phoenix
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With pe4 it was a tossup between ultima and bp3 for raiding

pine topaz
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The video i put up before is with only about 7al and no gear investment

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So is basically your starting point 250 gsh

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Eos did bump up the damage to about 10k for hp but bp damage stayed pretty much the same

cold crag
#

(assuming no ultima comparisons are allowed:)

I think the interesting comparison would be ~20 turns against something like a raid, looking for total/aggregate damage.
Q's to answer:

  • is it better to ignore pacts altogether (bp/hpact) and build like a standard mage?
  • is it better to use BP than any existing mage spells (sorrow3, fey unstable)?
  • is it better to use hpact 1-2 times just to charge passive the return to damage dealing?
  • is it better to spam hpact with a summon-follower to deal damage with hpact itself?
pine topaz
#

Also how does it fair over longer raids, does the damage diminish quicker than other spells

wispy phoenix
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M1 is equal to the number of summons? Or is it M2

cold crag
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don't know yet, it's so new 😄

wispy phoenix
#

it does seem to scale 1:1 with the number of summons

cold crag
#

eos might not be the best summoner-follower if it's number. might want onryo for the chance to summon multiple per turn -- maybe.

sinful sluice
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eos does have DC, and summon dead does have the downside of easily having a summon die per turn

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Plus as you said, more summons means better chance of picking a summon

cold crag
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my gut is saying that after you've stacked your passive, hpact is probably not what you want to be doing. likely want to just switch over to a standard mage setup, treating hpact just as a setup thing.

sinful sluice
#

So it's got plenty of variables

sinful sluice
#

Since if HP was a reliable strategy, then summoner pets would actually have a genuine home

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Outside the Keith Orphanage

cold crag
#

gonna test hpact dungeoning rq

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(oh, summon phaethon can summon more than 1)

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... yeah there's no way. with +orn gear for (boss) dungeons, hpact is doing the same damage as twin blast 😅

#

much better to be doing anything else there.

coral pawn
#

First off i'm very happy about having a new dmg pact.

  • no summoner classes w/o much summon stats can use it, yay
  • you can charge the Hydrus passive and actually deal dmg while doing so, yay
  • its dmg with one summon is roughly 1/4 of a 1 AD BP2

So what are we going for?
Is it good like it is, being a better way to charge Hydrus?
Do we simply want more dmg?
Utility? Semi AoE?

pine topaz
#

Probably all as damage is semi lackluster, if we want damage bp is still probably the way to go or some other move. Utility is slightly limited, defo a no no in horde, anguish if you cant definitely kill in one raids if you go full pact gear (if not its fine the dual wield for nekro staff is a bit squishy) sequencer doesnt appear to deal 2x damage only 1 (i may have misinterpreted the info from others though). If your doing a short raid or endless it may be a good may to charge up hydrus passive quickly but not much i can see apart from that. Maybe a last ditch effort in pvp but damage doesnt outdo bp so probably not. Summon dead seems best couple for summon only but too weak amd scales of hp so not great, eos is best alternative but not very accessible as costs 300k tower shards. Seems to do more damage with gso so possibly pulls away from hydrus use. Aoe would add more utility but on tue other hand without a damage boost it won't see much use. My honest opinion can't speak for anyone else is that either the damage needs to significantly increase (look at it this way i could fire off say ~5 bp using say 5 ancient dragon and last a few turns dealing massive damage each turn, whereas with hydrus pact i only get 1 attack from 5 dragons and the damage is less so i see a clear winner of what to use) or it has slight rework with how it scales or whether it is aoe or it deals damage with a flat multiplier for each summon it kills off therefore allowijg for more versatile use.

wispy phoenix
#

Tbh, I just think it doesnt really solve any problem right now. For raiding it doesnt seem to beat chakram and bp pre 245 and post 245 ultima exists. Maybe you could argue it's useful for setting up the passive, but from my experience setting up the passive is not worth it in most raids (too slow). Even when I do want to charge the passive a bit I'd rather just summon dead once (or use scarecrow) and let the raid kill my skellies one by one instead of wiping the field which makes the raid focus on me a lot more. For dungeons / towers, it's not aoe, and it sacrifices your summons which puts you at increased risk (or you get statused immediately), so I think it wouldn't be worth it there even if it was pseudo aoe. In endless you cant sustain it enough to spam it every turn, so ultima, bp and seal are still better there.

#

I would probably prefer if this pact only killed a few summons, not all of them

safe wyvern
#

hydrus pact I and Hydrus pact II could kill different amounts of summons, they are the same thing, except for the damage

wispy phoenix
#

imo it would be interesting if we could make builds where this sacrifice stuff is actually sustainable with certain builds (eg scarecrow + eos), right now with a full field clear it can't be. If there was a pact that sacrificed say 2 summons and was pseudo aoe, then it could become interesting for tower builds and maybe anguish too. Considering ara vesta exists, I dont think that'd be unbalanced either (it has a cost unlike av2)

spark plover
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Hydrus pact seems pretty cool
Skill synergy with passives is always a plus

safe wyvern
#

hear me out,
Hydrus Pact II - Kill all summons, Scales it to BP2 or BP3 in damage at least
PASSIVE - Consumes soul gauge 10 soul gauge at the start of each turn to revive all summons killed as shades with half HP and X turns of doom or some debuff to kill them in X amount of time.
Give us some defensive power in the turn we dont have summons in the field

it wont destroy balance Hydrus Should be a step up from normal pacts so BP3 with 2 turns - BP3 with one turn, we will always take the hit, that's why we need more defensive power, in the same way as BeoH have Hydrus monsters and a T9 passive
Hydrus passive would make Hydrus pact non viable for non Hydrus
KILL ALL SUMMONS EACH TURN AND GIVE US Shadded Summons
Shades clenease all their buffs and debuffs each revive ( what a nightmare to program.... maybe revive II with rebirth code IDK XD)

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like use your souls to revive fading summons and use them again as hydrus pact, the soul gain from summon kill should keep the gauge from 100 to 50 all the time

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if your hydrus ressumon your summons as hydrus it should take off the snapshot

spark plover
#

I propose changing the existing pacts for that effect to be achieved though
We've too many pact spells that are wasted atm

safe wyvern
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i dont think, it would be a more explosive style with an unique perk but, we have 6 flames, 3 or for multi-flames, etcs

coral pawn
coral pawn
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The dmg imo is a tough one.
I'd set the bar at BP2 since that's what it's going up against.
Atm with the same setup a full field clear deals about a third more dmg than a BP2 with 1 AD.
It gets outclassed by BP with 2 summons out by a bit over 38%.
It must not be able to compare to a 5 summon BP since the longer setup of BP should guarantee a higher dmg output but like John said you give up all your defenses and are trying to fill the field with skellis dying to a stiff breeze.
I propose by saccing 5 summons it should atleast deal half the dmg of a full AD field BP2 under same conditions.

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Being able to differ how many summons you off with HP1 and HP2 would be great to enable synergy with duplicating summons like Beithir or Scarecrow ||make it 100% success rate pretty please|| and not make the summoner a sitting duck after its usage if he does not want to.
Summon HP seems to be the parameter when offing summons, so HP1 could work like Achlys.

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I'm kinda split on going semi AoE with it since we're already pretty good at the horde front and it does seem like a pact supporting the raiding setup atm.
However i agree that it would make GSH more potent and unique in those, especially towers.

pulsar steppe
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Ultima was used as the damage baseline - so a full field with good buffs should produce competitive damage to Ultima

I’m not fond of using blood pact as a baseline as it’s calc will likely see an adjustment given the ascension/quadratic meta chatter

The problem this is solving is playstyle - we want to see something different and feasible. If the goal is strictly to minmax, then the class will likely not satisfy as the only really way to address that is power creeping the class until it outdamages what is already arguably overpowered

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imo, next iteration could cap out at 3 summons but with comparable damage. Then a full field can give more than one cast until field is empty

coral pawn
coral pawn
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Thx for a new pact btw, looking good so far👌

pulsar steppe
spark plover
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Imo, a summoner that plays off of gathering lives and/or killing summons, it's kinda questionable giving, or at least, putting pacts that reduce summons' health/scale off of summon HP/doesn't contribute to the passive unlike the other way around to the class

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It puts GSH at this middle ground that would be beneficial for the other variants, but not for this one

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That said, it's kinda amazing how these changes made GSH significantly better, dare I say even better than GSA for a lot more stuff

past jolt
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Just tried it out on the beta, and honestly I don't think it's going to improve my raid speed at all with how little damage it does

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with my beta build I deal 2 mil with blood pact 3 with all ancient dragons setup and basic buffs on me

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and while stacking my passive hydrus pact dealt like 70k with my skeletons

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The longest and most annoying part of raids is still summoning the ancient dragons due to riftlock rng

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My suggestions are:
-increase damage significantly

-keep damage low, but revive summons after killing them(would basically allow for instant stacking of the passive, and would allow you to summon your beefy summons first)

wispy phoenix
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Just setting the m1 to 4+ isnt going to produce ultimalike damage in practice either considering ultima has a bazillion multipliers

wispy phoenix
# coral pawn Imo it does. I mean we asked for it and brought up multiple reasons, mainly summ...

But what problem does this solve atm? To me it seems like this would be more useful for lower tier summoners but for me it doesnt address any of the issues atm. It seems like its meant to speed up the setup, but I dont think a sac pact 2 like pact is going to do the job. The fact that you sacrifice your starting summon is a 4 turn loss, just doesnt seem worth it to me for how little damage you get out of it

#

Ignoring the passive still seems to be the fastest way to raid

past jolt
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for me it isn't honestly, since stacking the passive is really fast anyways

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like all it takes is a couple summon dead + achlys pacts

#

But yeah sacrificing the initial dragon is a turn loss

past jolt
wispy phoenix
#

Like I said earlier, I believe a pact like this has more potential if it didnt nuke your whole field (maybe a separate pact). Even if this current pact is worth it, its still not going to be very useful outside of raids. In dungeons we now have auto charging pasive (very nice) and content like monument / towers it doesnt make sense to nuke your field and maybe kill 1 enemy. In that type of content you're going to be using pseudo aoe moves

past jolt
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it's just that the current version of it doesn't quite speed up the setup

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From my tests, the only difference is that instead of achlys pact I cast this and deal some absolutely irrelevant damage to the raid while stacking my passive

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Oh and yeah having to summon one more dragon

wispy phoenix
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The best raiding Ive seen so far from hydrus was with pe4 + tmm aaru robe. There bp was almost on par with ultima

past jolt
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yes but that's high AL

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I probably can't do that as well as you do

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The purpose of hydrus pact 100% is making the soul setup in raids better, not improving gsh in any other way

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and so far the low damage doesn't help with that unfortunately

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if a raid has 10mil hp, with a full soul setup I don't think the amount of blood pacts will be lower from using hydrus pact compared to achlys for stacking the passive

wispy phoenix
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True

past jolt
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that's just my 2 cents, although it's pretty factual

wispy phoenix
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Then I guess its onlt relevant for pre 245 bp raiding?

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Ultima still seems way better than bp in this current meta (maybe not for super long raids tho)

past jolt
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yeah well ofc Ultima is better, it doesn't take 10 turns to setup

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All in saying, current version of hydrus pact doesn't improve my raiding speed at all

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in fact it might unironically make it slower since I'm killing off my starting ancient dragon

wispy phoenix
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That was also my experience

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Lets say you try to charge your passive to max.

Summon dead x2 is 2 turns
Hydrus pact 1 turn
Lost starting ad, +4 turns essentially
Summon dead x2 2 turns
Hydrus pact 1 turn

At this point you've spent 10 turns charging the passive, although youve done a little bit of damage from those 2 hydrus pacts. 1 hydrus pact is roughly equivalent to a bp2 with 2 ad. Then you still need to summon. If you're going for the full field then its another 4x4 turns assuming no riftlock so at this point you're at 26 turns. It still seems ridiculously long

dense helm
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new pact seem to focus on dmg rather than defensive, after using hydrus pact, the summoner lost its protector and will be killed easily

wispy phoenix
dense helm
#

maybe instead all of your summons go away, just make them only have 1hp left? then healing pact will be more useful

past jolt
past jolt
coral pawn
#

Also it might be benefitial to provide actual numbers. How much does your Ultima do compared to HP? Cause it was used as baseline
#1219672026160042118 message

wispy phoenix
#

it seems to be m1=number of summons sacrificed

#

need to do a little more testing

spark plover
#

Hydrus Pact as it is solves the "deal damage → feed passive" cycle that GSH previously had issues with, since summon + Sac Pact takes away from actually dealing damage, ultimately causing one more turns

wispy phoenix
#

yeah in theory maybe, but the numbers are underwhelming atm

spark plover
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Hydrus Pact is a damn good step in that direction

wispy phoenix
#

honestly, I dont think sac pact 2 + a little daamge is really that groundbreaking but to each their own

spark plover
wispy phoenix
#

I hoped that with more pacts gsh could rely on its pact playstyle in other content like towers / monument, but this current pact doesnt seem to be going in that direction

#

if the next iteration caps out at 3 summons then it would be more helpful in the raid setup yeah

spark plover
#

That's a cool idea
Kind of like a reverse, middle ground Sac Pact where SP1 to SP2 was progressing from one to all summons, this one being All to Few sacrifices

wispy phoenix
#

probably the most annoying thing about the current iteration is the fact that it sacrifices your starting summon

wispy phoenix
#

3 summons sacrificed for comparable damage to 5 summons sacrificed currently

#

but still, I think a pact like this with pseudo aoe would be so cool.

coral pawn
#

#1219672026160042118 message

#

The question if the dmg then with 3 compares to the dmg with 5 now was not answered yet.
However we still need to compare it with Ultima in terms of numbers.

spark plover
#

Pros:

  • It deals damage and feeds passive

Cons:

  • Comparison with Ultima leaves a LOT to be desired in terms of numbers
  • Completely nukes your summon defense, leaving you with just your player stats and boosted by 50%(?) to tank any incoming damage
#

If numbers were to remain the same, I propose making it pseudo-AoE, with the next iteration sacrificing only 3 summons to add the 4th and 5th summon to deal damage instances similar to CD for single target and +1/+2 more targets for horde

coral pawn
#

We still only carry 1 summon from floor to floor

spark plover
wispy phoenix
#

ultima: 220k no buffs on training kektus (fey menja hood, bulwark, fss, oceanus lung celestial staff, full achlys a kaladanda, 25% crit 30% elemnt amity)
hydrus pact: 188k with no buffs and 5 summons (a rift summoner, heretics robe, fss, full eos arm quarterstaff, nekro staff)

spark plover
#

Wait, what?

spark plover
#

It's got no extra turns, right?

#

Just 1 turn, yeah?

wispy phoenix
#

no but getting to 5 summons is going to cost turns

spark plover
#

Ultima's got more damage, but you take all the damage to yourself (unless summoner but that's a different can of worms)

#

Hydrus Pact can have you get extra defense with more units on the field for a bit lower damage

wispy phoenix
#

well, as soon as you kill all your summons thats when the raid starts focusing you

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at least with ultima you have 1 summon

spark plover
#

Even if you've no summon, taking damage by yourself for just 1 turn is a pretty easy enough hurdle to overcome

spark plover
#

And so does EB

wispy phoenix
#

hereis the thing: ultima does that damage with essentially zero cost (also that number I gave didnt take into account raid elem weakness or anubis sigil). With hydrus pact you can only do that damage with 5 summons on the field which is obviously going to cost turns

spark plover
# wispy phoenix hereis the thing: ultima does that damage with essentially zero cost (also that ...

Nah, nah
I think the Ultima comparison was more of classes being limited to their signature skill (of sorts).

Ultima (or at least, the-used-by-other-classes version) being the closest to GS due to leaning heavier towards mage since it makes absolutely shit sense why it should be compared to GS Ultima when most of its crutch happened to be an afterthought passive that would've been removed easily otherwise.

#

Only reason GS Ultima is as strong as it is is cuz of EB, remove that and it'll be mid of the pack, especially with how the assisting summons perform

#

Basing the entire mechanic to compete with that would lead to a shaky end product

wispy phoenix
#

Im not even talking about base gs ultima here

#

hydrus ultima is also a thing

spark plover
#

Not as good of a thing as GS Ultima or any other classes' Ultima though, yeah?

#

GSH Ultima is a thing not because of GSH, but because Ultima is just that good

wispy phoenix
#

hydrus havg followers is also a big boost for ultima

spark plover
#

Yeah but other classes also have that? What makes GSH' more unique than others then?

wispy phoenix
#

anubis summon mimic

sinful sluice
# coral pawn Also a comparison

One thing to keep in mind, even if Ultima and HP are dealing comparatively similar damage, is that:
Ultima has access to more multipliers via Crit, Adorns, Weaknesses and Amities, whereas HP only has access to pact modifiers (present in augments, weapons and hat)

Ultima is a 2-turn spell which can be quickcast, whereas HP is a 2-turn cycle rotation of summon-explode (assuming 3 summons rather than 5), meaning it can't be quickcast.

spark plover
sinful sluice
#

On a positive for HP, you have that your pet can summon for you (eos seems legitimately good at this), but then you have to give up mimic with GMM. And pet summons can't really keep up with the 3 summons per turn cost, so you will need to be casting summoning spells inbetween anyway

coral pawn
coral pawn
#

And this is without a blight applied

#

Which skyrockets Ultimas dmg

sinful sluice
#

Yeah a blight / natural weakness is a whopping x2.5 damage increase

#

Which is not being taken into account

sinful sluice
coral pawn
#

It somewhat compares to a full crit multiplier 2turn Ultima

sinful sluice
#

But for a reasonable comparison, HP should be dealing as much damage as about 1.8 turns (seq qc) of ultima at 1.75 damage (weakness half the time)

#

And then it'd still missing out on availability of multipliers

#

But it'd be a much closer comparison

wispy phoenix
#

ok using scarecrows did not go as well as I expected lmao

sinful sluice
#

Alternatively, scarecrow fail chance removed and HP becomes much easier to manage on the turn count

wispy phoenix
#

I dont even understand whats going on with those scarecrows

coral pawn
#

I'd not take weaknesses/blights and/better amities (i only have a 40% crit multiplier) into account or HP becomes kinda broken.
Also with it using 3 summons you may use HP twice in a row.

wispy phoenix
#

I guess the scarecrows dont count as my summons so I guess theyre not increasing hydrus pact damage?

sinful sluice
#

LMAO

#

Okay so HP does not like summons' summons

#

That probably goes into bug reports fyi

coral pawn
#

Ab so lutely

#

This and a suggestion to 100% scarecrow.

sinful sluice
#

~~Actually it's called Hydrus Pact because it only works on things summoned by GS Hydrus 🧠 ~~

brisk sentinel
#

If HP sacrificed the 3 weakest summons (instead of random), that would leave your 2 best / most important summons alive.

wispy phoenix
#

pe4 bp: #1219672026160042118 message

(not exactly the same raid and method used but you get the idea, no summon cast time rng involved)

you will be missed pe4 😭

coral pawn
#

What do y'all think about it saccing random summons.

wispy phoenix
#

not a huge fan

#

that could still result in your starting ad getting sacced and it would just be frustrating when it happens

coral pawn
#

Or your duplicating summon

wispy phoenix
#

yeah, maybe it should sacrifice the 'last' 3 summons

coral pawn
#

What we have as mechanic is working with summons HP as 'strongest' or 'weakest'

wispy phoenix
#

yeah, but if we really want to build around this idea of sacrificing summons and getting as many summons on the field as possible, hen you might use something like eos + scarecrow. If you then sacrifice the weakest 3, your scarecrow will get nuked as well

#

I wonder how this scarecrow issue is going to get resolved tho lol

#

if odie makes it so that summons summoned by players become the player's summons, then I assume they inherit the players summon stats as well, which would be good for us, but not for keith mains mightiest_mimic

coral pawn
#

I appreciate their noble sacrifice

spark plover
past jolt
#

like with achlys pact

#

which id argue makes for faster raids compared to current hydrus pact, since it doesnt kill your initial 4 turn summon

latent pumice
#

you can summon dead and use hydrus pact

#

to stack passive

#

and while doing so the dmg is not really affected

cold crag
# coral pawn What do y'all think about it saccing random summons.

If it doesn't sac everything (which I'm honestly okay with, as a "fast passive charge" thing) -- I actually kinda wish that it killed the highest HP summon. Let me explain 😅

For GSH, all summonHP is unimportant. The thing you kill is arbitrary in some sense. It could be random selection, lowHP, highHP, based on color, based on tier, doesn't really matter.

For GS/A, a "high" HP pact as a dual to "low" HP pact would be a very helpful thing for endless setup. Anyone that's done AGG setup before has suffered with SacPact1's random selection to get rid of tiamats/typhons -- "high" HP would kill them selectively.

So, given that GSH ~doesn't care and GS/A could get a little love to their convoluted setups (shave some turns off of a 70-turn setup)... a high HP pact of any kind would be appreciated.

#

regarding "hpact should be competitive with ultima" 😐

at the very least, we don't have an amity which is 1.3x 1.3x 1.4x hpact damage (compare to "ele damage, eledamage, crit effect"). we don't have anything close to that. we also don't have a 1.02**2 adorn for non-celestial offhand (compare to Achlys Soul). we don't have a 1.3x damage defensive chest (compare to Bulwark). we don't have a follower that increases hpact damage by 2.4x (compare to eleblights from dragons; best option is a summoner-follower which is kinda like a 2x in that it can summon on the same turn the player summons).

so, yeah.

wispy phoenix
#

The thing is, gsh does still care about summon hp. As far as I can tell this is just an addition to blood pact builds to speed up setting up the passive, not really a spell to build around, at least now it's certainly not beating blood pact even on gsh. Why not just make that a separate pact for the highest hp summon

cold crag
#

Why not just make that a separate pact for the highest hp summon
because
given that GSH ~doesn't care and GS/A could get a little love to their convoluted setups (shave some turns off of a 70-turn setup)... a high HP pact of any kind would be appreciated.

keep in mind

If it doesn't sac everything
big if.

safe wyvern
#

Reading the discution and my personal thoughts, I think we need a quantity over quality thing, GS/A were never about summoning High HP summons, they are about summoning High Statuses summons and KEEPING THEM ALIVE and buffing them, GSH should get something to mass summon existing summons that are non mass summonable, the problem with summon dead is that we have AoE skills in game and they are already in a place that you can never use a 5 monster hydrus pact today, hydrus to stop caring about the summon it summons, it should summon more than the others non ironically

cold crag
#

yeah, that's kinda the idea. GSH can summon more quantity because it has summoner-followers which GS/A don't, and doesn't care about their HP as much. more to the point, it wants them to die (and it wants to get some benefit from them dying).

safe wyvern
#

But we only have summon dead, it should have a build in mass summon

cold crag
#

HP-based pacts are definitely an artifact... old GSH thinking. Not the new identity. A thing for GS to do.

safe wyvern
#

But they need HP to survive a hit at least for you to summon 5 and kill them

#

Ans it is an at least ultima II setup with no sequencer or anything to cut turns this way

wispy phoenix
cold crag
#

You're viewing BP as something that GSH should be doing. It shouldn't. 🤷‍♂️
GS should be a much better BPer than GSH, because HP matters.

#

GSH's core spells should be: hpact, chakram, ultima, fey unstable, mage dance, etc.

safe wyvern
#

And there is a little problem, if the rift doesnt proc, you have a 5 turns skill if you wanna use AD as fuel for it

safe wyvern
wispy phoenix
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Im just saying that currently in the beta, bp still works better as a damage spell than hydrus pact for gsh

safe wyvern
#

We dont need another Deity ara or Heretics

cold crag
wispy phoenix
#

maybe it just needs a number tweak but as of now it's not a replacement

past jolt
#

is it clear what direction odie is taking with this pact? i see it as purely a way to deal damage while stacking hydrus passive, nothing more

wispy phoenix
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right now this spell seems to be m1=number of summons sacrificed. You need 2 ancient dragons to approximately reach 5 summon hydrus pact m1 with blood pact 2, and bp3 would have a ~30% higher per turn damage than this due to sequencer quickcast

safe wyvern
#

And it is a GS skill

cold crag
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That is clear. It's a way to fast-charge the passive, and there's a possibility of a build that uses it for main damage dealing (maximizing number of summons and pact effect and mag stat; as opposed to just mag stat, or mag stat + summon hp).

safe wyvern
#

You need to account for the 4 turns AD

wispy phoenix