Circle of Anguish General Discussion

[swift musk]

I believe you missed my point😅

[naive nova]

Which is?

[swift musk]

Not everything new should fit one playstyle.

[brazen quail]

Would the studio consider including normal scrolls to the anguish shop?

To the same point I feel like a shrine of luck is probably better suited to be in the anguish guild shop as well

[desert trench]

It's safe to say that all guild shops will have their inventory change over time, involving what makes most sense to the players using that guild

[brazen quail]

Thanks Odie!

[naive nova]

I just listed 3

And other two are dungeons and pvp

PvP is not affected by this

[swift musk]

So, you indeed completely missed my point

[naive nova]

Explain your point please

[mystic harbor]

We can talk about feedback being speculative, but if the system goes live as it is now, I already know how I'm going to interact with it. I'll set it and forget and anguish 3 or 4, buy materials when they pop up, and that's it.

There won't be "engagement" because the system has been designed to intentionally limit it.

[swift musk]

some would do 10, some 50, some none, and it would be absolutely fine! Like a great majority of players do not use endless or area exploration.

[naive nova]

Lol, we will see lots of noobs death in raids and towers with this.

It will take time for people to get used to it.

[naive nova]

What 10, 50 or none?

Anguish levels?

[swift musk]

I remember the lost 1 floor of Towers.... The game didn't die because of that. People got used to it.

[naive nova]

Do you really think that?

At anguish 10 the stats of mobs and bosses will be 5 times.

[plain trellis]

no, 250%

[swift musk]

It doesn't bother people in endless 400 that mobs are stronger.

[naive nova]

Oh right

[swift musk]

So, if players can choose to play horizontal endless endless, why deny them that?

[naive nova]

It does

Endless is about orns

The people who get 1000 do it with their raid gear

And most beefy gear

[swift musk]

You do miss my point)))

[naive nova]

What's even your point?

[swift musk]

Try reading other people's words. I cannot explain more if you don't even care to read what's been said already.

[naive nova]

You didn't really say anything clear.

[naive nova]

Like this. What the heck does it even mean?

Mobs getting stronger doesn't affect endless?

[swift musk]

Probably the fog of Morrigan debuff, you need to explore more of the world

[naive nova]

?

Can someone please explain his words to me?

[wicked relic]

It depends on the goal of the beta. For the balance patch update, the goal of the beta was to test balance. For this beta though, I'm fairly certain the main goal is to test if everything is functioning as it should (Proofs dropping, Step tracking functioning, Any bugs/exploits), less so than balancing it.
Since it is an entirely new thing, it's hard to get functional feedback on balancing it - it's never been in live, after all. Balancing classes that have already existed can be done in beta, since there's a reference point.

Similarly to when Towers was in beta, the point wasn't so much to figure out if towers were balanced or not, but if they were playable. After their release, patches have been slowly given out to Towers to make them more in line with other sources of feedback - smaller floors, faster movement, bonking some stronk augments, better twohandeds, etc...

[swift musk]

You've been here for a long time and still don't remember that I am a granny? Shame.

[naive nova]

Granny?

I don't think we have ever had a conversation before.

So sorry I don't remember you.

[wicked relic]

Let's try to keep this productive and off of each other's necks please 😅

As it stands, the most important part about anguish testing is if it works, and how it feels in terms of UI.
You can leave balancing for later.

[plain trellis]

then the only complain is i have that we need to be at OT to change anguish levels, outside that i think is perfect

[naive nova]

That's the hope.

[swift musk]

We do a re-play of future Guild Wars

[naive nova]

We are just trying to get some things fast. As impatient as we are.

[wicked relic]

Valid feedback

[brazen quail]

Thanks for the write up, it did provide understanding. But it would be nice if the studio said we are happy with x, y, and z. But are looking for feedback on a, b, or c. Cause at the end of the day spending time in beta is not progressing my time in live. It is fun, but nobody likes to test things that are set in stone because they don’t understand the expectations.

[plain trellis]

( and that i would like to change the % of stats to enemies but it seems that that feedback is more to when is live xD)

[vocal gust]

I personally don't mind that we're not getting rewarded more in terms of orns/xp/luck etc. However it does bother me that I basically have to adjust anguish levels based on content (endless, towers etc), which I can currently only do if I'm in my OT and I have to pay proofs every time to do it. I really hope one time level unlock purchases will become a thing and it would be nice if the menu is accessible everywhere as well

[swift musk]

Trust the studio. They DO read everything, and they DO listen to the community. And they don't take sides, because they make their game, not someone else's.

Also, the immortal quote: "The dev's task is to disappoint everyone equally".

[spare hatch]

I think the point of anguish is to add challenge for players that want more challenge. It is not about increasing orn/xp/gold, that's just a small bonus and not the focus of the feature. So in saying you don't see the point in increasing the difficulty because the rewards don't scale to be worth it is basically saying this feature isn't for you. The farmable rewards from anguish will be the mat packs. And that's the set it and forget it part. Play normal with low anguish, stack proofs, buy mats when you are blocked.

[swift musk]

You need to spell 'reazonnal' in your nickname

[plain trellis]

i would say that is more important the anguish scrolls than the mats

[wicked relic]

I understand what you mean. I don't speak for NF, but they are probably collectively busy doing a bajillion things at once. They could possibly give that information out, but that would also mean people would put less testing focus on some things, which could result in less bugs being found and what not.
If you're not happy testing things that might not get changed, you don't have to test them.
Plus, nothing is 100% set in stone. Even things the studio are happy about. If there is enough pushback. So they probably don't ever want to say "this is set in stone"

[naive nova]

All those who have tested the anguish guild. What do you think is the rate of drop for the proofs for different levels?

[gilded portal]

It turns out the true challenge of anguish was how inconvenient it is to use it

[wicked relic]

Personally, they could afford to remove the exp/orn/gold/luck/shard buff, if people keep thinking that is the main point of anguish.

[gilded portal]

4% per stage, I think

[naive nova]

That's a valid point.

[naive nova]

4% of what?

[gilded portal]

At anguish 50 I have yet to slay a t10 boss that didn't give me a proof

[naive nova]

How much time did it take?

[swift musk]

It is named anguish, so... suffer

[mystic harbor]

For scope, in case people havent tried it on beta, accessing anguish 50 cost 1225 proofs every time. 🙃

[plain trellis]

how many anguish proofs you get? 1?

[gilded portal]

1

1 per boss

[plain trellis]

raids?

[gilded portal]

I haven't been able to kill one

Well, at least one with the higher def/atk stats

[naive nova]

Lol

[spare hatch]

I'm not crazy about changing anguish levels to mess around with high challenge being its own proof sink everytime you want to adjust. This would probably keep me from using it very often.

[gilded portal]

Idk if that bug is fixed yet

[plain trellis]

so, if your 4% is accurate, anguish 25 is enought to guaranteed proof

[naive nova]

Doing zero attack even with def/res --

[gilded portal]

Derp. I mathed bad

[wicked relic]

So from what I gather of people's opinions:

Some people would really appreciate the ability to add Anguish Levels to separate pieces of content, rather than a blanket to everything. So Anguish 2 on Gauntlets, Anguish 0 on Towers, Anguish 1 on Raids, etc...

Some people would really appreciate the ability to change anguish levels from anywhere, not just at the OT.

Some people would really appreciate it if Unlocking a new Anguish Level was a one time purchase, and from there on out going up or down a level would be free.

[gilded portal]

2%

Not 4

Jfc

[naive nova]

Bring cockatrice

[wicked relic]

Are those accurate statements?

[hexed escarp]

2 and 3 would be really nice

[wicked relic]

I'll give that a pin

[naive nova]

1 and 3 for me

[gilded portal]

Absolutely 2 and 3

[plain trellis]

for me all 3

[gilded portal]

If 2 and 3 happened then it's just a couple extra steps to get 1 achieved

[spare hatch]

Yeah, good feedback summary

[hexed escarp]

I think if we can swap everywhere there isn't a need to have separate scaling for different stuff

[swift musk]

If it's a one-time purchase it needs to be higher. But as with keys, they might prove to be abundant enough to help re-adjust levels within 2-5.

[hexed escarp]

Yeah exactly

[naive nova]

The issue is for people who wish to try lvl 20 anguish

[mystic harbor]

It could also not be a purchase at all, and instead be based on total proofs collected or guild level so it still has to be earned, but doesn't get in the way of the rewards

[wicked relic]

Yeah, those are different suggestions I've seen floating around from different people, some of which would cover the same basises as others. Basises is not a real word, but I've already typed it.

[naive nova]

Now for them to do normal stuff again they will need to go to 2-5 again

So that's a loss of quite a number of anguish

[desert trench]

Hey folks - just to address some of the topics in here.

1. Re: cost to re-increase Anguish Levels - let's let this topic rest. It's really hard as a studio to comb through feedback when we're so cyclic on one idea. It's well documented, the studio gets it, let's move on.

2. For those looking for guild content to actively engage with, this definitely won't be the guild for you. Anguish will most likely be the most passive guild, and that's okay! plenty more active guilds are coming for you

3. Nature of betas: we're a small team with big ambitions and tight timelines, so having a more formal process won't be something we can offer now. our betas will be active, with plenty of changes when needed, and little instuction more then: "Go nuts"

[naive nova]

And for them to try level 20 they would need to spend those proofs again

[desert trench]

Comments per the difficulty/reward curve (or non-existance of) I can agree with. that is something we can expect to see soon

[brazen quail]

I know they listen and I am thankful they reach out. Its just tough to find out what Dangy said after a few days. I would rather have it happen in parallel to launch.

[brazen quail]

I know you dont speak for NF so no worries. And I know they are doing a billion things all at the same time. I dont mean to put hem on blast. But to me if you are happy with some things and want more info about other items. It would be straightforward to put that in a blurb here or elsewhere to provide direction

Sorry Odie just read your message. I will stop messaging about the direction. I want to expand that I dont need a final revision. But Dangy’s note above would be helpful for me at launch to set expectations.

[brazen quail]

@wicked relic mind pining when you have a chance?

[wicked relic]

It's already been pinned ya goofball

[gilded portal]

Pin it twice

[brazen quail]

Lol my b

Cheers all! I always look forward to these days on boards like this

It can get hot. But its tight to see everyone so excited about a game that is also my favorite game!

[gilded portal]

Yeah, wanna say 2% per stage of anguish. As for t10s dropping proofs without fail, here you go.

[red forum]

This is actually hilarious. Ill put money on GS being the only class able to do this at low ALs

[hexed escarp]

Grim doesn't have low Al's though, and this seems like a mirror

[red forum]

Only class you can actually get away with the dex difference because you have 5 mobs that can overcome a 40% miss chance

And soak 150k+ hits

[red forum]

He doesnt have ridiculous high ALs either iirc

[teal dust]

That's a lot of misses

[red forum]

The Dex scaling is wild

Bet those mobs have 10k+ dex

[wicked relic]

13.5x stats on ANG50

so anything with remotely close to 1k dex will have 10k+ dex

[red forum]

Exactly

[teal dust]

But that wasn't ang50 right?

[wicked relic]

That was ang50

[teal dust]

Wow

Dealing damage in ang50 is hard haha

[gilded portal]

Lmao

Al0 though. I can try other classes if people want

This was me messing up a gilga boss gaunt.
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/492514088992374786/1122933860829769848/XRecorder_26062023_095045.mp4

[spark skiff]

i see a lot of usage for assassin spec and VSS

[gilded portal]

Yuuuup

Realmshifter Chrono w/ nag belts

Biggest thing I'm running into w/ beta character is lack of HP

I almost feel like setting up a heart of themis + riftguard setup for the +hp/mana upon ward damage is one of the few ways to survive turn 1 with WoO

[spark skiff]

that would probably be a good idea

[vocal gust]

Not yet

[vocal gust]

Static miss chance on ss would also be huge

I still want to see how anguish lvl 50 mobs would be on floor 1000+ in endless

[gilded portal]

Return of the heretic CS build

With no HP increases, make the mobs oneshot themselves

Wait a minute...

Doesn't pve also have that draw thing?

Where if your cs kills you keep going?

[vapid nacelle]

Sweats in RS

[gilded portal]

Second chance proced though

Nah needs second chance.

[vapid nacelle]

If new-ish t10 classes can do Anguish 50 content, which was determined to take a long time (1) several months (2) to achieve, immediately, it might need to be looked at again.

References

#1121075515235774538 message
2.
#1121075515235774538 message

Posting references so I'm not speaking out of context.

[gilded portal]

No CS cheese xD

[royal timber]

I mean just a suicidal would

Is like the easiest way of pve content and you have to deal with anguish 50 everywhere else

Or downlevel and lose doesn't want to do basic math proofs

[mystic harbor]

Anybody tested if luck equipment increases the chance of proofs dropping?

[red forum]

Have not yet but also very curious

[daring merlin]

are we supposed to get soenm "exp" towards the "circle of anguish - guild hall"? when I have anquish to lvl1, I can see the number in world, in gauntlet.. but I gain nothing out of it - is this bug, or do I just need to kill hundrets of bosses to increase the "exp" by 1?

[swift musk]

Bosses your tier should have an extra line "guild exp" in their reward screen

Exp itself in the guild can be checked in the guild hall at your ot atm

[shy burrow]

nope

they are dropping proofs

[daring merlin]

ok, no such thing on my screen - maybe it is because that "walking guild" also doesnt work for me?

or maybe - I am T11 - bosswes are T10 - is this the issue?

[shy burrow]

Did wonder that, but they're dropping the proofs just fine

[swift musk]

Two things:

1. proofs for anguish level
2. exp for the circle of anguish guild

[daring merlin]

ok, so no proofs, no exp - nothing 😦

world, monster remains, gauntlets - nothing

[swift musk]

No!

Sec, loading screenshots

no proof, but 5 guild exp (personal gauntlet)

[daring merlin]

yeah, I see no such thing

[shy burrow]

is it random whether you get guild XP then?

and lower chance than proofs

since I'm still on 0 GXP

[swift musk]

in Russian, but you can guess the item: same 5 guild exp and a proof (personal gauntlet)

[daring merlin]

2x T10 gauntlet, about 50 remains - and nothing.-..

[swift musk]

No, you get it only for bosses your tier

Idk if remains your tier give proofs or exp

[shy burrow]

so... not T11 then

[daring merlin]

? so when I am T11, I gain no exp and no proof?

[swift musk]

Either there's a bug, or need closer check

That was a 245 char by me

[daring merlin]

btw - the walking guild also doesnt work for me since day 2...

[swift musk]

That is different, some problems on the tech side

[daring merlin]

friend of mine has the same issues - "walking" does nothing, this anguish also does nothing - so I thought that mayber it is connected

[shy burrow]

yeah I'm on a 250 char

[swift musk]

Could be, could be not.

[shy burrow]

which like I said, is dropping proofs but not getting GXP

[swift musk]

If it's different for you, needs reporting then

[daring merlin]

only he has higher anguish lvl - because he made the char now, while I made it during last update..

[wicked relic]

Do we know what anguish guild experience would even do though?

Just out of curiosity. Since I'm not sure what Angler guild exp does either

[shy burrow]

not I

[swift musk]

It might be yet to be added

[shy burrow]

Checked with a T10 and they did get GXP first time, so have logged it now I've checked it

[unreal wren]

With Circle of Anguish giving increased difficulty and rewards, can we make monsters level normal in Towers ?
Instead of t11 range which doesn't give more reward

[shy burrow]

Guild XP seems to be working now

Anguish levels also now seem to permanently unlock, no prompt to pay when changing down then back up

That said, it's also not actually removing the proofs when you unlock a new level. Is that a beta-testing thing or bug?

[swift musk]

Could be

Or testing in progress

[shy burrow]

yeah that was more a question for Odie/NF

wondered if it might be a threshold thing where just holding the required proofs is enough, but I was able to keep going past 11 with 10 proofs on hand

[desert trench]

Beta update is available now. This one introduces a curve to difficulty/bonuses, per feed Anguish Guild feedback

[red forum]

Looks a lot more reasonable. Definitely like the ability to change anguish between unlocked levels freely

[mystic harbor]

excellent

Doesn't look like the cost for materials or anything changed with the difficulty curve being reduced, are the prices there to stay or should we expect a cost rebalance as well?

[visual grove]

Thanks for the feedback-driven changes, they are very much appreciated

[mystic harbor]

(I'd probably argue for a cost increase fwiw, since anguish 20 now seems very reasonable and bundles of mats currently only cost like ~ 10 proofs)

I'll gladly take the ability to purchase an entire ascension level worth of mats at once, not sure it is the intent though 😛

[cunning yew]

is it intended to not consume proofs to raise difficulties?

[wicked relic]

Supposedly, it consumes it once to unlock the level, and from that point onwards, you can switch levels at will

[shy burrow]

it wasn't the other day

[cunning yew]

it doesn't consume after the latest patch is up lol

[wicked relic]

ah.

[desert trench]

Proofs are only spent the first time the level is unlocked

[cunning yew]

but not even the first time has been spent on it

#1097574048294260878 message

[amber flare]

Nice, think a lot of people will appreciate that.

[glad panther]

Nice, i like changes.

[half quartz]

Anguish boss should scale to your teir

[cunning yew]

where is the end

[wicked relic]

Seems 200ish

maybe 250

Would love to know what the guild level does though ahah

[hexed escarp]

Flex

[spark skiff]

It will never end, anguish is eternal

[harsh edge]

Travelers and heroes just flavor text for all players?

[wicked relic]

Players are referred to as Travellers in Orna, and as Heroes in HoA.
Don't think Circle of Anguish is going to get buffed from both game's deaths though, so probably just flavour

[swift musk]

Passersby in both

[viral ocean]

It'd be cool if they all tallied up together - we are all part of the Ornaverse.

[gilded portal]

Testing out the anguish changes. Much better imo, and really nice how quickly you can change the levels

My only confusion is what is the purpose of the guild levels?

[viral ocean]

To show off your level of self imposed pain?

[vocal spire]

future content maybe? unlocked store items, titles, who knows

[viral ocean]

^ fancy hats

[vocal spire]

guild level leaderboard 💪

[gilded portal]

So basically whomever is the best GS, got it.

[outer dirge]

huh

'felled bosses' still gets me xD

[wicked relic]

Oh, did that get changed..?

Could've sworn it was 25% difficulty per level and 2% bonuses per level

so 100% bonuses at max level, and 1250% difficulty at max level

[mystic harbor]

Yeah, it is on a curve now so the early levels scale less than later levels

[wicked relic]

Gotcha, thanks

[plain trellis]

first levels are 7% and 1%

but proofs rates are the same as before

[royal timber]

I'm the only one triggered by those 199% not being 200%? Same fir that 1003% and that 163%

Also anguish applies to every raid, but only drops proofs from the ones of the same tier as you right?

Feels like wrong, like you might lower anguish drops from low tiers but like reducing the rate

[royal timber]

My humble suggestion is to change the numbers a bit:

• difficulty: +10% for fist 5, +15% for next 10, 20% next 15, 25% last 20 = 1000%
• bonus: 2%, 3%, 4%, 5% = 200%
• shards: 1%, 2%, 3%, 4% = 150% (or use the same formula as other bonus, if you do AL 50 towers you deserve that bonus)

Also in this way the curve is a bit more gentle, tomorrow I will print the graph I didn't want to turn on the PC

[unreal wren]

Anguishing numbers

[tepid nimbus]

Does anguish % bonus work on raids?
Since would be weird to overbuff the bosses but don't get the advantages🤔

[royal timber]

It does, but the only advantage seems the chance of dropping proofs and only for raids of your tier

[tepid nimbus]

I see thanks
Wouldn't luck be good to have higher chances of fame/Legendary items dropping then?
You would get garanteed famed items etc compared to fixed % tied to damage