wicked tide
Gilga Ursa - Like the title says. There's been some talk about it needing buffs and we're getting late into the beta to request changes, so get some constructive feedback together with actionable changes if you want to make this happen.
Ready
Set
GO!!!
outer flare
Before the beta ends? Nothing. This beta is already way way too long in the tooth.
What would I change generally?
2hand powerup could be stronger.
More HP-based stuff could be stronger and an opportunity for a strong theme.
Counterattack being attack-stat based (instead of lost-HP based) would be a great change.
wary steeple
Gilgamesh Ursa Changes
clear grail
Gilga ursa being the super high HP, big 2h weapon class would be awesome.
Adding more HP based mechanics and a further boost to the 2h power up feels like a good way to give GUrsa a better identify without sending it over the edge of OP.
I'd start ascending gila if I could run around with an OHB and 70k health
wicked tide
I think fundamentally if counterattck chaned to use ursa's own att stat, then it wouldn't be "counterattack" and need to be it's own new skill.
outer flare
(cc @thin pivot) when I say attack-stat based:
Currently, if GUrsa is hit for 0, he counterattacks for 0. If he is hit for 10k, he counterattacks for 20k. It's based on how much HP is lost. This makes it quite pointless in pve (where you can't counterkill weaklings that hit you for 0, nor does it change total dps against something like a raid with millions of HP compared to your tens of thousands).
Instead, if the counterattack was an instant Attack button, that would be something interesting. Scaling with attack stat, attack buffs and def de/buffs on the enemy. In pve, this lets him clear out mooks and means he gets an extra bit of M1 scaling in average damage against raids. In pvp, this means two things:
wicked tide
I feel like counterattack works as intended in PvP, regardless of whether or not some people don't like getting hit by it. The only issue I have with counterattack is it very underwhelming in PvE which is the vast majority of the game, and from that standpoint I'd rather see counterattack be like an autocrit hit back like HS3 or something similar.
still lintel
(cc <@299715973961744385>) when I say attack-stat based:
Currently, if GUrsa is...
That would be first swash defense build cool
outer flare
In pvp, I'd say the problem is that you can't stun them out of it. You just have to tune your damage down (or use summons) so you're not overkilling.
thin pivot
(cc <@299715973961744385>) when I say attack-stat based:
Currently, if GUrsa is...
Got ya. Yeah. I like that.
But yeah. That fix would address both though
Would also make it work in pve
Would still be useful in pvp
wicked tide
It would need to be a high M1 move so I don't think it would change much in pvp and would probably still kill the attacker if built correctly. Which, to be clear, is exactly what it is supposed to do in PvP.
outer flare
Changing it to Attack stat based would be one thing. Tuning the M1/M2, buffs applying to it, etc. is another.
wicked tide
Also, I think it currently returns 300% of incoming damage
lucid tundra
G.Ursa counterattack is a bizarre thing in PvP, fully RNG, it's hit and pray you don't get killed.
upper fiber
You can build to be super tanky
Although that kinda defeats the purpose of counterattack
outer flare
currently, it does.
as it is now, I'd say it's only a pvp thing, for picking up random wins.
wicked tide
What are the numbers on Ursa and zwei passives? Is it Avalon 20%, Ursa 2h 20%, zwei 2h 20%?
lucid tundra
Although that kinda defeats the purpose of counterattack
Even worse if you use Strikes of Ursa that, in addition to being 3 turns, you are defending while the skill is charging, reducing the opponent's damage and consequently the damage of the counterattack. And given current PvP circumstances, loading 3 turns is signing a death warrant.
wicked tide
That skill unfortunately is essentially unusable
lucid tundra
The class has no means of defense to make you survive for 3 turns
lucid tundra
And outside the PvP scenario we have two totally useless things
lucid tundra
Could get reduced a turn and still probably not see play
I pointed this out a few times here, even though I knew it would still be bad, but it went unnoticed
wicked tide
Well we've already got Dangy's attention so it's going to get noticed now because he's awesome. Doesn't mean it will get changed though, but it will get noticed.
Maybe if we all send him a case of Fosters...
lucid tundra
But what bothers me is the fact that the passives are VERY inferior compared to the passives of other classes, the Crest of Avalon and Ursa bonuses are low and there is no room for improvement other than ascension (and a lot of ascension)
I did some tests these days with the RS Dorado (because I'm really thinking about dropping G.Ursa especially with the arrival of HoC) and I didn't even need to stay with 1hp so that the damage of the Dorado surpassed the damage of my G.Ursa
wicked tide
Well base gilga's passive is 50% at full ward, and Hercules is 60% (I think), so Ursa Zwei with a 2h weapon is starting with 3 20% stacking passives without the need to build into them. Which is higher than both other versions, unless I have the numbers wrong. Hence why I asked for confirmation on the passive numbers above.
lucid tundra
So, since G.Ursa's HP is one of its main points, why not scale the damage based on the amount of HP it has? We have an amity that increases damage when we have full HP, it could start from this idea for example. As HP decreases, damage decreases.
wicked tide
In PvP though it doesn't get the avalon passive, but other gilga's rarely get to build full ward in PvP.
lucid tundra
But it's not even necessary either, over and over again I start PvP with Spiked Shield turn 1
wicked tide
I always thought the avalon passive was odd, since t10 classes have combat passive, and ursa is clearly a combat class, but it gets no passive in PvP.
lucid tundra
I always thought the avalon passive was odd, since t10 classes have combat passi...
My annoyance isn't even the fact that I don't have her in PvP, it's the fact that she's really bad
wicked tide
I love ursa for pvp
it's a one shot killing machine with horizontal strikes 3 and a crit build
With SS1 as a follow-up for 2nd chancers
lucid tundra
I love ursa for pvp
Me too, and it's surprising when I get hit and see someone lose because of how broken the counterattack is. I spent a lot of time one of these days in the arena just to see it happen haha
wicked tide
I don't know why people keep referring to it as broken?
It does what counterattack is supposed to do, it's just a low random chance to trigger.
It isn't reliable, and you can't build into it
lucid tundra
It really is broken, mainly due to the fact that some do not even know about this class mechanic. No one expects you to return 300% damage until it happens and you feel it.
wicked tide
I would call that a teachable and humerous moment, but not broken 😛
Seriously though, what makes it broken?
Counterattack was broken on the old mage builds where you could force the AI to only counterattack. This is a low random chance that it triggers, and in a PvP arena that is dominated by the one shot meta, having something kill you back once in a while seems perfectly fine.
outer flare
this is pvp-in-a-pve-game we're talking about -- anything that causes the player to lose is broken 😛
wicked tide
Kinda the sentiment I felt like was coming through lol
lucid tundra
In a discussion with my friends, and some tests, it is very difficult to escape this RNG, not even trying to hit it little by little you can escape being hit a lot by the counterattack
300% is a lot
wicked tide
I've played PvP with Ursa exclusively since I unlocked it a couple months ago, and on offense I've rarely ever seen it trigger against 2nd chancers. Granted I don't find a lot of Ursa's to fight against in arena which I think also lends credence since if it was "broken" more people would be running it.
Is the counterattack skill from the offhand weapon not 300%?
lucid tundra
I also don't see much G.Ursa in PvP, to be honest I don't even know if there are many players dedicated to the class, not that it's a rule because it's a variant, but it really lags behind compared to the other variations.
wicked tide
I assumed this passive was just a copy pasta of the skill already in the game
Please elaborate on that a bit. What does it lag behind in? Or maybe the better questions, is what is it supposed to do that it isn't doing well?
lucid tundra
First the passives as I mentioned
wicked tide
Develop that thought a bit though
lucid tundra
(Give me just a second because I'm not used to English)
wicked tide
no worries
lucid tundra
And I'm going to be very direct because the problem is really passive.
wicked tide
As a long time gilga player, the problems in base gilga that ursa solved for me was a good horde build that could bring sweep up to a usable level without needing zerks. Gilga was sorely lacking the the ability to efficiently clear horde content or carry party runs. Ursa does this probably better than any other melee build IMHO.
lucid tundra
Compared to the other Gilgamesh.
Raids: For a newly T10 it is certainly better than the other Gilgas, but as you advance the class starts to fall behind due to the fact that a Gilga with well-structured equipment can do much better. High Ward + Spiked Shield is strong and safe.
Towers: I don't use it on towers because the passives don't hold damage on higher floors, unlike my Gilga Base/Herc which is a walk in the park. We can't even use Chained Shield because the passive Ursa cuts off a lot of our ward.
PvP: With a decent attack and HS3 it's pretty safe and we can still count on the counterattack, but it doesn't work against Beo's pet and is useless against Summons. Sometimes it's better to stay on Spiked Shield turn 1.
Dungeons: I can MAXIMUM clear dg T8 with orn gear by pressing Sweep 20 times and stopping to use potion in the middle of the dg. I think any Gilga here shares the same problem.
I'm only comparing it with Gilga because when it comes to the class I need to show that it really lags behind in basically all aspects. What I say is that it could be better in PvE and leave it as an option if you want to farm without having to leave Gilga, especially if you invested in the class. And that's exactly what she's sinning on.
wicked tide
Not sure I understand what you mean by "maximum clear dg T8"?
lucid tundra
No class has to be good at any content, but currently G.Ursa lags behind the other Gilgas and still shares the same problem in dungeons. Trialling Ax + Zwei + Sweep manages to be worse than Questing Ax + Bricrius bow + Raider, what's the point of being a two-handed weapon class when even with a spec focused on this aspect it can't be worse?
lucid tundra
Not sure I understand what you mean by "maximum clear dg T8"?
Because more than that, several problems already start to appear in a dungeon, taking an unusually long time to finish a single dg.
wicked tide
do you mean t8 dungeons?
lucid tundra
Yep
wicked tide
like tier 8?
I'm really confused
Are you farming for keys or something?
I don't understand why tier 8 dungeons are being used as a metric for gilga performance?
lucid tundra
I used it as a metric only to what extent it seems "comfortable" to use an orn set inside a horde mode dungeon
wicked tide
*Raids: For a newly T10 it is certainly better than the other Gilgas, but as you advance the class starts to fall behind due to the fact that a Gilga with well-structured equipment can do much better. High Ward + Spiked Shield is strong and safe. *
I agree completely with this. Ursa a good starter class for early t10 players to get improved raid efficiency until they get the gear/levels/ascension to make a good spiked shield build and switch to Base or Hercules. I think this is a selling point for Ursa and not a bad thing.
lucid tundra
I didn't even mention endless because it also falls behind for obvious reasons
wicked tide
*Towers: I don't use it on towers because the passives don't hold damage on higher floors, unlike my Gilga Base/Herc which is a walk in the park. We can't even use Chained Shield because the passive Ursa cuts off a lot of our ward. *
I agree completely here too. Ursa isn't great at towers because it can't use chained shield and sweep isn't viable either. Hercules is definitely the best gilga variant for towers with chained shield bar none. But I think that's fine because these are sidegrade classes and each have their own strengths and weaknesses.
lucid tundra
*Raids: For a newly T10 it is certainly better than the other Gilgas, but as you...
Yes, that's a great thing, I don't take into account just who is T11 and has a lot of ascension. You have to look at the tier as a whole
wicked tide
*PvP: With a decent attack and HS3 it's pretty safe and we can still count on the counterattack, but it doesn't work against Beo's pet and is useless against Summons. Sometimes it's better to stay on Spiked Shield turn 1. *
This may be an early t10 vs late endgame thing, but I do an incredible amount of damage t1 with my Ursa pvp build that looks more like swash numbers with some actual survival.
wicked tide
I didn't even mention endless because it also falls behind for obvious reasons
All gilga variants unfortunately suck at endless for deep farming with orn gear. If you how to improve this I'd love to hear them.
lucid tundra
Yes, I tested with all three and failed to achieve a decent result, it lacked a lot of damage
The general issue is that there isn't an incentive to stick with the class as the game heads towards the end, the closer to the end the more it falls to the sidelines.
wicked tide
Personally, the only thing I think you can't really do with gilga at any stage of t10/11 is deep endless farming. But using realm for that should work fine because you don't need special gear or anything, just the questing bow and a decent set of ward legs. The rest of the gear is basically the same thing you'd use on gilga.
lucid tundra
That's why I thought of a passive aimed at "the more hp the more damage" since the identity of the class is having a high HP (and I think this is an excellent aspect of the class), you could have a certain amount of control even if you wanted to use mushrooms/berserk, using any type of lifesteal.
lucid tundra
Personally, the only thing I think you can't really do with gilga at any stage o...
You have a point here, and I think my resistance to changing/investing in other classes overshadows my overall view of how the game works. But I need to mention these points because variety is also an important factor and keeps the player base healthy.
wicked tide
Agreed
I think it is unlikely that the passive is going to get completely reworked in time to test and be ready for release of the beta based on the timeline NF put forth. If the passive is really the problem then I think a strong case would need to be made, and maybe the best we could hope for would be seeing it change to something like Crest of Avalon 2 and get maybe another 5% or something. But even that I think is unlikely.
I like Fux's idea of reworking the counterattack to be useful in PvE and potentially increasing the 2h Ursa passive to really lean into the playstyle, and IMHO those would be the most realistic tweaks we could hope for at this point.
lucid tundra
I don't like the idea of moving to RS to make this content or switching to Heretic to make another one, I pointed all this out so that other potential classes can make (in a balanced way) all kinds of content without having to force the bar on something that doesn't is to the liking of the player.
wicked tide
Beo and Deity also can't really do deep endless farming though so it isn't like gilga is the only one
Even eheretic isn't great at it
lucid tundra
Yes, that's why I mentioned potential classes, there's room for that. But I fully understand that it is something that takes time.
But some are well behind others, in the case of G.Ursa
wicked tide
Gilga can go really deep in endless if you're looking to get the achievements or for a personal best, but it can't do it in farming gear like realm and summoner can.
arctic jay
I know this thread is about Ursa, but I was a bit sad to see base Gilga getting nothing really for this cycle. I haven't played Ursa in Live but when it was still in Beta I found it underwhelming given how low the passive bonus was, low dex and the 2H Boost really wasn't that much for what you had to give up to get it.
Also, I'm not a huge fan of just random chance mechanics. But if we can have a random chance to hit a Summoner or instead his nearly invincible pets, I see no reason why we can't have an equally annoying random FU mechanic.
thin pivot
300% is a lot. If I reduce my damage output to say, 20k, that’s still 60k back. I noticed the counter went off maybe 30% of the time? That’s significant. If I reduce my output to say, 10k? Yeah. Not enough.
The Katar I can’t remember what it was. Not sure if it was 200 or 300. But you needed to invest a slot and waste a turn to use it.
lucid tundra
I know this thread is about Ursa, but I was a bit sad to see base Gilga getting ...
Yes the passives give a very low bonus, it looks like T7-8 class passive
lucid tundra
300% is a lot. If I reduce my damage output to say, 20k, that’s still 60k back. ...
My friends and I are exactly in this debate, even giving 10k of damage you run the risk of taking considerable damage, and in the meantime you are being beaten by HS3. Unless you are a Beo or Summoner you have to pray.
Even though I'm playing with the class, I find this very unfair
thin pivot
If it’s gonna end fights like that, I’m ok with it, but then maybe 10% to proc or something. Or not 300%. Even 200% would be a lot more fair.
lucid tundra
Transfer some of that power to the 2h bonus and I'd be happy.
thin pivot
Lol. Refract is 100%. It’s so bad.
Idk much about the 2h bonus. I’ve seen pretty nutty numbers though. Won’t speak on that until I know more
lucid tundra
The bonus is low, it would be even more useful to have a better bonus and a fairer counterattack, HS3 hits very hard.
potent sonnet
So, since G.Ursa's HP is one of its main points, why not scale the damage based ...
I agree with you that the Crest of Avalon passive is a bit poor, but I totally disagree with attaching a bonus to a dependency on something like hp, mana, or guard. In my honest opinion, I love Gilgamesh but I always hated Bastille's passive because I was always at a disadvantage against all classes. It doesn't matter, if you're T11 Al 70 with a 350k ward, than me, being Gilga 2h, I drop them like mosquitoes with one strike or two and they never get that bonus at full ward, so they always had half their statistics. And if it were a Realm it would already be the nightmare of the Gilga. I always wanted to suggest that it be the other way around, something illogical but that way at least it would work. In other words, the bonus would be received by the less guard he has, but surely that would not be to the liking of many. Today we are not talking about Bastille, but about Ursa. This one finally got rid of that curse and now I can play Happy Gilgamesh. I appreciate Odie, but I disagree with tying Gilgamesh to reliance on HP, Mana, or Ward. This governs your style of play a lot. Not again please.
Or at least I disagree that they tie it to a maximum of Hp or ward. Remember that there are people who play with Berserks or with low defenses. To do that is to kill a community. Since I personally don't see a future for it. Maybe to a minimum.
potent sonnet
Compared to the other Gilgamesh.
Raids: For a newly T10 it is certainly better...
I have the same problem with the mana in the dungeons, and it's that Siphon Ward III is actually a beauty but you can't appreciate it if you sweep the entire field you don't give a chance to get hit and in the end you have to stop to heal the mana.
I am also currently working on running in all areas without having to change to another class, but it requires a lot of investment in the class and there are areas where Gilgamesh falls.
potent sonnet
No class has to be good at any content, but currently G.Ursa lags behind the oth...
Taking advantage of the situation, maybe I should create a separate publication, but I thought about that for a long time. that sweep is a poor Aoe skill and the others go above with great differences as the Magical Aoe's are better, I thought of suggesting a little love, not equality or superiority. "just a little love for Physical AOEs." Maybe adding a new alternative or that sweep II that we see around that we can't have. It is that those who play the physical style are far behind and you often hear them say that they go to deity or Heretic to give good Aoe in Dg. Why??
potent sonnet
50% base ward absorb rate would fix a lot
Strikes of Ursa is a 3 turn skill, 😦
A passive that reduces hits that would do more than 50% of Gil Ursa's hp would be pretty cool and somewhat thematic
i.e
I have 25k hp,
they hit 35k,
it is reduced to 12.5k + (22.5 x .5) = 23.75k
I have 50k hp,
they hit 85k
it is reduced to 25k + (30k) = 55k
Idk. I die often doing tower fights with 5+ mobs, or vs big hits
potent sonnet
As a long time gilga player, the problems in base gilga that ursa solved for me ...
nah, deity with 0 ascension is much stronger
wicked tide
nah, deity with 0 ascension is much stronger
Huh?
wicked tide
I've played that build and it isn't nearly as good as my gilga
And thats with deity al25
You talking with chimera instead of Phoenix since it has auto dc?
potent sonnet
yes, you dont need to use phoenix, altho for both I tend to prefer Atlas for horde
the first simply huge benefit of deity horde is you dont need to deal dragon dmg
wicked tide
That's fair. My original point was from the standpoint of a non-zerk build
wicked tide
I don't use dragon damage
I have an autobuff build with askr chest and Olympian legs
potent sonnet
my horde sweep setup for ursa has 12 carefully selected buffs and arcane dmg.. my deity horde sweep setup also has codex stuff in it, and random empty slots
potent sonnet
I dont think you can have more difficulty with deity in a horde dungeon past the buff stage, anyway
wicked tide
Ultimately I only run horde for mat/key/event/gf farming
Do my orn farming in hard boss or endless
potent sonnet
I generally run hard horde or boss horde
wicked tide
I have a deity swash build for horde with bricui's bow that kinda blows sweep out of the water but you die sometimes lol
potent sonnet
or if there's orn event or temples etc a 75key hard horde boss pays 1mil per lvl past 16
but,i cant do it with gil ursa
w/ a lower ascension deity,and bricriu, yes
wicked tide
yeah, probably run out of mana with gilga
potent sonnet
ursa just doesnt have good mitigation or the innate temp buffs
even if Im just using osmo/x slash 3, Ill have to flee and swap skills, or buff then swap pets
anyway, I think ward at 50% base would fix having to bring a ward skill
wicked tide
Yeah, I could see that
potent sonnet
*Raids: For a newly T10 it is certainly better than the other Gilgas, but as you...
this is also a weird thing you zaid, because a celestial variant is hardly a starter class
if its a starter, it should cost less
potent sonnet
maybe another idea for a fix would be to give innate 50% defense increase when Defending, and strike of ursa "defend for 3 turns" also activate ward
altho most two handed weapon will prevent defending
still cove
About G. Ursa:
After reading your comments:
lucid tundra
I agree with you that the Crest of Avalon passive is a bit poor, but I totally d...
Thanks for your input, the idea of a passive based on HP was nothing more than an idea, and I agree with you on the "comfort" part without having to keep an eye on hp/mana/ward.
potent sonnet
Guys, I am serious since I am taking the G Ursa to the extreme to write about the points that need to be changed but let me give a slightly stupid suggestion. If we are supposed to be the two-handed hero, why does the Gil Ursa sprite carry a one-handed sword?? 😐🤣🤣
lucid tundra
Guys, I am serious since I am taking the G Ursa to the extreme to write about th...
I noticed this too haha, I accepted the idea that G.Ursa is a giant and makes a two-handed weapon look small 
fast plinth
nah, deity with 0 ascension is much stronger
Totally agree, for AOE deity is the best for both physical and magic speaking, instant DC is insane, couple with a lugus and a buff duration if you want big numbers for a while
Also, blueline, the more you sweep, more powerful you are.
And at the end, it can wear any piece of armor...
fast plinth
Yes, Atlas is good but you need plenty of pet actions on your adorns as it is a 6% buff.
I used to use it too, but then I swapped for chimera as that one has 20% chance buff.
Simply personal opinion,i think both are viable
potent sonnet
Please change that sprite. I don't want to believe that he is a giant with a two-handed sword using it as one-handed.
potent sonnet
I just found the solution to some basic Gilgamesh problems in Dungeons, Ursa in my case. I wish I never discovered this as I'm not proud. I went into a dungeon as a swash to test Bricriu's bow, I think it was the worst thing I did all day.
Well my results are:
I just realized that ursa is ridiculous, I already lost all need and interest in being Zwei now. How do you explain that being a celestial class that favors two-handed weapons and also uses a specialty that gives this passive more power, you have to use a one-handed weapon and a simple object to do more Aoe damage ? Now the ursa passive does not give benefit because I don't use two hands in dungeons, also the counterattack doesn't work in PvE and it's also a problem because I don't start with the ward, I don't regenerate it and also I lose a lot of ward for nothing. What do we have left? Use Ursa only for PvP?
Gilgamesh Ursa deserves serious surgeries, now I understand why the sprite has a one-handed sword! XD
wary reef
Change Ursa passive for it to unlock an ability on 2h weapon which don't have. Sweep on melee weapon, arrostorm on bows, Mage's dance on archstaff...
Or simply add it a good multiplier on aoe skills.
wicked tide
@still cove @potent sonnet could you post your zwei and bricui builds? I'm trying to test this and having trouble replicating your results in getting more damage out of the bow than sweep. I agree that if Ursa is supposed to be the 2h class then its zwei sweep build should be the best option.
lucid tundra
One thing that could help us would be if the warrior equipment from the Fomorian event had balanced stats, to this day I don't understand why warrior equipment is created with zero or low Res. It doesn't make any sense...
potent sonnet
G Ursa - Swash (Phoenix)
Try going with Swash and bricriu, In my test, I used the same Buffs in both cases and the same gear except the weapon. Too bad I don't have a weapon with very good one-handed damage, but it still beat my 2h.
G Ursa - Zwei (Phoenix)
So sad for my 2h [200%] 🥲
And to wish you a good weekend...
I think I'm broken
potent sonnet
And again, beating 2h Ursa Zwei with a 1h but this time as a mage style. Can it be more ridiculous?
So just 5 min ago I came up with the idea, 5 min ago I executed the idea. Who can tell me why a makeshift kit with no mag favoring adornment beats what took me a while to build.
I think if I put effort into upgrading my gear and put mag favoring adornment it surpassed 100k Magical Aoe.
Odie don't let us die. I start to forget that I use a two-handed weapon.
It is possible that my damage with Mage's Pavane is low but for not being a Mage and having improvised equipment it seems to me that it is very good
potent sonnet
I'm back! As I had said with a few small adjustments I exceeded 100k damage, but if I really had to take this very seriously. It would take about 15-20 days to get the right gear and bring it to GF.
By my calculations I'll be around 150-200k Aoe GilgaMage stopping only once time to recharge mana. I usually always keep my word.
But not even dreaming that G.U Zwei can do it, it has so much promotion of 2H for what?
lucid tundra
I understand your sentiment and go through it, and I'll be honest, I'm looking forward to HoC more than any changes to this class. Only God knows how long it will take, I prefer to change soon and move on with life.
At least I can take Horizontal Slash 3 with me.
wary steeple
Fwiw, Gilgamesh Ursa is performing pretty well as a Horde clearer in all my play with it.
This below is without party bonus, and Crest of Avalon is at 0% charge:
This is my gear, understandably a fair gear grind attached:
I'm not disagreeing that there could be something to make Gilgamesh Ursa a little more exciting - I do think it's a little overblown how bad of a performer it is though.
The addition of the ability to wear thief gear is very welcome
potent sonnet
what ascension level?
wary steeple
33
potent sonnet
that ohb is about 195%?
wary steeple
199
potent sonnet
and two trevs, and no orn gear
wary steeple
I don't understand why I'd use orn gear in this comparison, it's not the aim.
Horde isn't the best option for Orns, my friend
potent sonnet
right, in the case that I want orns I should swap to RS and play endless?
and I only need close to 1 billion orn to get 33 ascension I think?
I feel a little dismissed. Someone even specifically mentioned not using a 1800+ att weapon above
wary steeple
To be honest, I'm quite confused as to what's happening with these points.
This was directly following some posts about horde clearing performance as a comparison to Mages Pavane.
Does seem you've missed some of my sentiments, as well.
I'll copy them for you to read again
I'm not disagreeing that there could be something to make Gilgamesh Ursa a little more exciting - I do think it's a little overblown how bad of a performer it is though.
The addition of the ability to wear thief gear is very welcome
potent sonnet
so the one immediately above my reply?
wary steeple
I feel a little dismissed
I wasn't responding to yourself. You've taken away something that isn't there my friend 🙂
potent sonnet
I understand trolling, I'll just go
wary steeple
I genuinely don't follow what has just happened, so if yourself or someone wants to bring me up to speed feel free.
I don't see any posts from yourself DoomEngine since yesterday, so this most definitely was not in response to yourself at all. Perhaps re-read the more recent posts and it'll make more sense, otherwise I'm sorry for whatever it was exactly that felt like trolling. I assure you I am not, it's not my style!
potent sonnet
I understand your sentiment and go through it, and I'll be honest, I'm looking f...
Sorry bro I'm not native, what is HoC?
wary steeple
The Heart of Change, thread here:
https://discord.com/channels/448527960056791051/1101540711322619914
🙂
potent sonnet
blah. I dont want to reply anymore. I also will wait for HoC
potent sonnet
The Heart of Change, thread here:
https://discord.com/channels/44852796005679105...
Bro, glad you're here. Well a summary in small words of my publications. If I have a celestial class bonus 2h and also use Zwei, I have an excellent 2h weapon [200%]. What reason exceeded it like 1h, either bricriu or magical style. Please, I think the physical Aoe or the Ursa needs a little more love in this regard.
wary steeple
blah. I dont want to reply anymore. I also will wait for HoC
Ok, fair enough.
I think I've upset the applecart with something fairly innocuous. Massive apologies, was trying to follow up and engage on this topic to help highlight it.
I'll leave you all be, apologies again.
wary steeple
Bro, glad you're here. Well a summary in small words of my publications. If I ...
I think I'll just read and not engage further for now. Type away, I'll keep reading.
potent sonnet
Maybe it's me who's wrong, but I like the Ursa and I like to use two-handed. I find it sad to find superiority with other styles and more painful to have to change class for a specific situation. It is not my case because I do well as Zwei, but for that I need a pair of Al and a very good weapon
wary steeple
Yep, to reiterate I do think it's quite gear dependant (as are a lot of classes and builds), and I don't disagree with the sentiment that it could use something to make it a little more exciting.
That sentiment is consistent with the feel for a few of the celestial classes, I'd say.
potent sonnet
Yep, to reiterate I do think it's quite gear dependant (as are a lot of classes ...
Thanks for the support. Do you think this case will have a solution? Maybe with a Sweep II
wary steeple
I let my thoughts be known before the creation of this thread, I'll paste the image of that below:
For what it's worth, this patch is about balance. Gilgamesh Ursa hasn't been shown to be an outlier in egregious over performance, or egregious under performance.
Discussing it helps it stay on the radar for future updates, but doesn't guarantee anything for this patch.
potent sonnet
Understood
potent sonnet
ok, we are left for the moment to make the counterattack viable in the pve. If we do it as it is already said in the community, based on our attack stats, it will work in all areas and the criticism of it in PvP will decrease
lucid tundra
I don't think the class has low performance, my problem is that it doesn't have its own identity, RS has avidity, Beo has bonds, Deity has its passives (I agree that they need maintenance) Heretic I can't even say that much cool thing that exists, Summoners has several things too. Even the other Gilgas have a ward-based passive, G.Ursa has a passive with a broken counterattack, takes a lot of our ward and a horrible bonus, and another passive that is worse than the T9 god class passive
There's no real reason to stick with the class, there's nothing appealing about it.
wicked tide
199
Crazy jealous of your OHB, and I had a feeling it may be a top choice for Ursa. Unfortunately RNGeesus has not been kind to me in getting one 3 years running now. Thanks for sharing your build and thoughts, and sorry your contribution got met with animosity instead of welcome.
I agree with you that Ursa is a reasonable performer but could definitely use something to make it a little more exciting. I think some of the feedback in this thread is spot on in that, while it seems to be meant to have a 2handed identity, it can easily be outclassed by 1handed builds. I think looking at either the Ursa passive or the Avalon passive for some tweaking would be greatly appreciated and would help to make the class less of a niche.
I'd suggested above that potentially giving the class a Crest of Avalon 2 may be an option, but honestly I like the idea of leaning heavier into the 2handed identity and think looking at the Ursa passive and maybe giving it a bit of a boost would be a huge boon. Zwei sweep builds really should be the best option to run Ursa. Sure you can show screenshots with a bunch of t. buffs and show other builds outperforming sweep, but I think there's an opportunity to make sweep the most consistent build, and right now it just doesn't have that.
Melee sorely needs some AoE love, and in the absence of new skills, this is the best way to throw a bone to the melee community that want to enjoy the AoE content but struggle due the lack of anything resembling efficiency compared to mage builds. Here we have a dedicated 2handed sidegrade class that unfortunately doesn't really do 2handed good enough to be desirable. From the standpoint of a deep endgame 250, Gilga AL55, sure I can run through horde content no problem with Ursa, but for a low to mid level t10 this isn't really going to be a viable option. Melee players should want to pick this up to solve their AoE issues, but as it stands it's kind of an afterthought, or as many have expressed, a regret.
If there is concern that giving Ursa more buff directly due to impact on other game areas like PvP, then perhaps targeting either 2handed weapons to buff multi-hit skills or the sweep skill itself to provide an inherent bonus when using a 2 handed weapon would be an option. This would keep the improvement locked within spec and require additional gear restrictions to take advantage of the interactions, and would effectively only buff horde/party play.
I think Ursa is probably the most interesting of the celestial classes, but there's missed opportunity here to give it an identity that makes people excited to use it. While the concept is really cool, it kinda misses the mark to offer real appeal to the gilga community. Fortunately there's still time and multiple avenues to explore over the next week.
On another note, I am still very much in favor of tweaking counterattack to be useful in PvE. I feel like its a longshot because it would essentially mean redesign, but a boy can dream.
🍻
lucid tundra
Perfect! It's exactly the idea I have about the class at the moment
Personal opinion: I don't care about big numbers on screen or meta and etc, I just wish the class had demonstrated more of that warrior side with a two-handed weapon. After what @wicked tide said, I don't think I have anything else to add at the moment, if any changes happen I will definitely bring feedback. Love ❤️
potent sonnet
I don't think the class has low performance, my problem is that it doesn't have ...
Agree
potent sonnet
Thanks guys for giving your ideas, which was the expression I couldn't find. Identity. That's exactly the word. That Ursa really need a true identity with a two-handed weapon. Everything else has already been said.
I would like to emphasize bringing Ursa Strike to life. It doesn't work, and falls way behind against HS III or Realms Strike. It is not necessary to face a top enemy, only with a responsible adversary is enough to launch Ursa strike in towers, raid or pvp is certain death. The ability does decent damage but puts my survivability at risk.
Some ideas:
Better to do something soon, because this ability will be forgotten (HS III, R.S) and for those who already have it, why you would use Ursa Strike if you have Ultima Strike
To finish, about the identity of two Ursa hands, let's start with its sprite. 🙂
potent sonnet
Thinking about some ideas of the identity of the Ursa.
According to the calculations I did a few days ago, speaking more clearly, the Ursa passive reads like this:
You receive a 35.4% (Approximately) bonus when using a two-handed weapon, and also have x%(20!?) chance to auto counter for 300% damage return. But you get a loss of 38.03% (Approximately) of your guard.
I've only been in Orna for 4 months, and I don't think I'm the right one to say what to change, since it might create an imbalance. But it seems like a raw deal to me. Either they give us more damage 2h for that amount of ward that I pay, or they keep us that % 2H but reduce the price.
Maybe I'm the one thinking wrong, but as far as I remember I'm still Gilgamesh, that is, the path of survival. And currently I think a Realm does this role better.
Some alternative solutions.
It should be repeated that I am not the one to decide what to change, and neither are the correct numbers. But 1 is 1. 1% improvement is noticeable. Even if it is an insignificant change, but it is a change.
lucid tundra
Part of the problem is with the two-handed weapons themselves, you lose a lot by using a two-handed weapon, there are a lot of quality offhands, and two-handed weapons don't really offer anything to make up for that loss.
wicked tide
You normally lose your accessory slots as well because of a. Trev charms.
potent sonnet
Absolutely true, 2h is supposed to be deadlier than one handed. In addition, the class is exaggeratedly governed at 2h, so as someone said out there, with that devil's pact that we signed, it does not allow us to look for alternatives to 1h because they are superior, or a shield to try to survive longer, since that we would only carry the negative bonus of the passive without receiving anything in return. So you have to die as 2h
potent sonnet
Thinking about some ideas of the identity of the Ursa.
According to the calcul...
Another alternative solution.
hybrid juniper
You normally lose your accessory slots as well because of a. Trev charms.
This needs to be highlighted, in the current meta, 2h's seem to require trev charms to outperform or match 1h's (at least this is how we feel), giving up 1 or 2 accessories in addition to an offhand is a major impact.
wary reef
You normally lose your accessory slots as well because of a. Trev charms.
can't really say it's lost, a.trev are really strong. IMO stronger than lugus. What you lose is the choice of using immunity items.
honestly the most logical move for me would be to ask a big AOE damage multiplier like the fomor stuff while using a 2H. Makes perfect sense with the fact that you've big weapon.
but most importantly what you should do as gilgas is target your demands better (and probably move this convo to discussion-threads because this won't happen during this near end beta and the forum is about to close).
upper fiber
How about this for an improvement to the 2h bonus that ursa has
Instead of just boosting your att (which is what it currently does) it boosts all the stats on 2handed weapons
So things like crit, mana, hp, ward, orns, gold, exp, luck, action rate from the weapon itself and adorns
Thoughts?
lucid tundra
Thoughts?
I like that, gaining a two-handed weapon bonus like G.Herc gains an offhand bonus. Very good
upper fiber
How about this for an improvement to the 2h bonus that ursa has
Instead of just...
Also to add to his how bout the 2h passive also boosts the damage of 2h weapon skills
wary reef
You may be asking for too much. Also if it's an all stat buff, it would probably be a small buff.
potent sonnet
Glad to see this convo still alive. I also think Gil Ursa identity is hard to define.
Gilgamesh is great at eating dmg then dishing out a massive Spike Shield hit. In comparison, Gil Ursa starts the battle at full power, with a lot of hp, so there's a safer opportunity to attack instead of build ward. But, it's a lower ceiling, when not Swashbuckler. Even Swash, I saw a very high lvl Gil Ursa with 18000 attack deal 2-4mil dmg. If Hera had 18000 mag it would hit dmg cap without buff..
Also the Dorado RS is so similar but with a 200+% redline and no ward penalty
I'd like to be able to do pvp, raid and tower with this class. if Horde has to remain married to Zwei specialty, I don't think there need to be focused class for it too
lucid tundra
Also the Dorado RS is so similar but with a 200+% redline and no ward penalty
And Avidity
potent sonnet
Glad to see this convo still alive. I also think Gil Ursa identity is hard to de...
Yes, I also noticed that. It is so sad to see the comparison of a G Ursa with 18000 attack to a Heretic or Realm with 18000 mag / att
Guys, I wonder does this make any sense, I mean this post? Since I only have 4 months in Orna and I don't know how is the technical support with the community and users. I have heard that they are always there, but I have not experienced it. Maybe we are talking nonsense here to continue the same and not solve anything. Can somebody tell me?
I can't say that its worthwhile, but if before this thread, the opinion at NF for Gil Ursa was based on 33 ascensions and a perfect Algovale, then in my opinion this was very successful feedback
wary steeple
I can't say that its worthwhile, but if before this thread, the opinion at NF fo...
Well this is a wildly inaccurate characterisation of what's happened. Can we please not do that? Thanks 🙂
I was simply trying to engage in the topic here mate
Tbh guys, what can be really challenging is if we receive really harsh interactions when we try to chat with you all.
Recently Odie mentioned how rough criticism when we try to engage can be a turn off - let's be mindful of that. We're an available studio and really want to remain that way, so let's not try and actively work toward souring that relationship please.
wary steeple
Yes, I also noticed that. It is so sad to see the comparison of a G Ursa with 18...
Technical support as in the mailbox?
All tickets are answered inside of 7 days currently.
Not sure the attachment to this topic, however
wary steeple
Crazy jealous of your OHB, and I had a feeling it may be a top choice for Ursa. ...
Yep, it was a lucky pull for me this year, recently. Same luck as yourself prior.
I did mention that Crest of Avalon wasn't charged at all, and Party bonus wasn't there so it is all transparent. I think I also was being clear that I understand there's a solid gear grind in that example, as well as openly agreeing that there could be something more exciting to be added to Gilgamesh Ursa (I know you saw that, it does seem to be collectively being missed in this thread though).
This comms from Ryzzo above is a great example of an easier way for us to interact with you all ^
Let's aim for this style of comms please, no unnecessary jabs.
wary reef
One day Odie will have enough of this shit and by the night he'll destroy Ultima, kill phoenix and disable ascension.
wary steeple
but most importantly what you should do as gilgas is target your demands better ...
This is a solid piece of advice, I think
potent sonnet
@wary steeple bro, thank you for what you do for the community, mostly you are the one I see interacting with users the most. From here whatever can be taken and passed on as a suggestion or improvement for Ursa, the community would appreciate it.
wary steeple
It's ok, it is noted and we do feed stuff back all the time. And fwiw Odie has been super active this entire beta for almost all topics.
I did mention prior to this topic going live that it was left really late in the piece to be raising this, so as to not get hopes up for this particular patch.
That should not be taken as dismissal, and certainly shouldn't be used as an excuse to accuse the studio of not caring. We care a lot, we don't want to be turned off engaging with groups by being misrepresented like above.
potent sonnet
No, I was referring to how Northern Forge acts in situations like the one in this topic, if they listened to the approaches that are discussed in the community or not
wary steeple
For those concerned that we use my builds to determine anything - that couldn't be further from the truth.
I'll find and link the pre-balance patch blog post that shows some of the analytics used to help determine outliers
wary steeple
I can't say that its worthwhile, but if before this thread, the opinion at NF fo...
In response to this ^
potent sonnet
It is that I am king and I am also here as the voice of a great Spanish community. They give me many suggestions as if I were from the studio 😂😅
wary steeple
Being a community or group representative can be quite the challenge! Look after yourself
lucid tundra
To be honest I'm happy with the studio's interaction with the community and even happier to be able to give my opinion and be heard. I fully understand that it is short notice for any changes but I also know that at some point we will be able to align things. Let's wait patiently.
soft agate
Personally, I don't have much of an issue with Ursa.
Could the effective HP be higher? Sure. Does it need to be? Probably not, in my opinion.
Ursa feels like the dungeon running spec of the Gilga-branch, at least to me. I have zero problems clearing any dungeon content with Ursa/Zwei or Ursa/Ranger in full orn gear. Generally, I use Ursa/Zwei because I have a 191 Trialing Axe. Is it a bit slower than mage? Well, yeah. But it's faster than a low-ascension Herc/Base doing the same content.
still cove
Btw Siphon Ward seems useless, i would prefer a recharge passive or mana siphon than that.
lucid tundra
I have to disagree, I think Siphon Ward is awesome, a little damage to your ward and your mana fills up. And not to mention that Riposte 3 + Horizontal Slash 3 keeps your ward turns, so I don't even need to use potions.
still cove
Yeah but we already have low ward, and when a hit enters you wards practically depletes.
soft agate
I have to disagree, I think Siphon Ward is awesome, a little damage to your war...
I just use guarding strikes 4 to keep up ward turns and for single target in dungeons.
lucid tundra
Yeah but we already have low ward, and when a hit enters you wards practically d...
Yes, I understood your point. We have to take into account all players with access to the class
potent sonnet
Btw Siphon Ward seems useless, i would prefer a recharge passive or mana siphon ...
Disagree, siphon ward III is amazing, That is part of the Real identity of Ursa and works pretty well on all context, except dungeon cause if you go as carry, almost always don't give chance to get hit by the enemy.
lucid tundra
I agree with the first part, about not giving a chance to get hit is impossible for this class because there is no such mechanism
potent sonnet
I agree with the first part, about not giving a chance to get hit is impossible ...
You didn't understand me bro, I say that if you go carry with this class, after the second or third floor, you already clear the floors with one touch, if occasionally an enemy survives (Normally it doesn't happen, my Phoenix has 24% action) if it arrives to occur, either this enemy attacks your teammates or gets a Buff. So you don't reload then you kill it next turn. 🤷♂️
where you usually have a chance to recharge is after the 15th floor if a berserks spawn, or a very evasive enemy and on the last floor with mammon, and everyone else
potent sonnet
Yeah but we already have low ward, and when a hit enters you wards practically d...
Look bro, I don't use the ward style and even less now with these aggressive reductions. The point is that I have already tested it at minimum and with 10K-15K ward and it works, it is a beauty. I have 27K mana but sometimes I use 17K. and just taking a hit that takes 10-20% of my ward off recharges me by way more than half the mana. Enough to survive 10 more turns. I usually use 40k ward, great for all fights.
oblique socket
My gripe with the class is that he doesn't have a unique ability (on a reliable/ or useful level.
CA is a flip coin.
Crest of Avalon hmmmm what c can I say.
Siphon ward not really useful with the pace of the game(better options out there for that).
Ursa felt short at dmg out put vs gilga base, so I don't really see a good advantage for using instead the gilgamesh
I mean if you want to use for the fun of that, should be good enough, but not a better option over gilga.
Hercules has the offhand buff, which make a better option for raids, or a better one shot for pvp.
lucid tundra
After a long time thinking about where the error was, I realized that the Ursa passive is bad, but what really bothers me are the two-handed weapons
My God the weapons besides being bad don't cover anything we lost, 2 accessory slots using Trev Charm (mandatory because the Ursa passive is bad) and we lost an offhand slot. The weapons themselves are basically a 1h weapon + a high ward %
But I'll say it again and I'm sticking to it, with time I believe we'll align these things, we've already been heard and even got a response.
I trust the studio and I know that in the right time we will be able to delve deeper into this.
outer flare
Agree that improvements to 2handed weapons might "solve" GUrsa issues in a roundabout way. And they need to be better anyway, when compared to 1h+offhand or DW.
The gap between them used to be even larger than it is now but it feels like it's slowly coming together, little by little. Stuff like proposed celestial 2handers getting a 6th adorn slot, the large amounts of ward% and extra adorn slots in the past, etc.
lucid tundra
I agree, this additional slot was a great (and fair) benefit for two-handed weapons, what worries me is the future, I would like to see different and useful abilities on weapons in the future, something that can at least cover the slot of offhand
potent sonnet
Dangy mentioned that there probably won't be any changes to Ursa in this patch, but in the next one there might be. Even I would like a sure answer, let's be patient, I have faith in the studio.
But my most sincere opinion, it seems to me that the real problem is that they probably don't see the problem with the ursa, and on our part each one raised to "their opinion" what the fault is, but we are not raising exactly where it is! ?.
We know and feel when playing that the class is poorly optimized, most of them think that he needs more power with two hands, (It is probably the most accepted theory) We only know for sure that he has a serious identity problem, the truth is that we have given a lot of suggestions that may lead to the solution.
I think that if the studio has to do tests, let it be with an average Gilgamesh. A decent gear, maybe a lv240 and less than Al20. And if a very advanced Gilgamesh will be used, then it should be analyzed what the other classes with similar power can do (Lv, Al, Stats)
lucid tundra
That's why I'm emphasizing two-handed weapons, a clear and new example is Tethra, look at the level of this ONE-HAND weapon.
potent sonnet
That's why I'm emphasizing two-handed weapons, a clear and new example is Tethra...
Odie's One ?
If it is from the OR, I did not go
I also agree that one-handed weapons have superiority over two-handed ones. Like Arisen Fey Neman Havoc, Arisen Fey Crowsong and others. There are few options at 2h that are good, since using Aglovale would be leaving you at 0 Ward, is not funny 🤣 but what you're invoking is creating new 2h weapons, a solution that can take much longer than fixing a bug in a class. If the solution you say is given, I hope it is not by celestial weapons. I am reluctant to this topic and I hope they do not reach the extreme that they are the only alternatives for the players
slow frigate
Note, aglovale and old hallowed blade are 2h
still lintel
Also fey Neman havoc is an arguable 1h
lucid tundra
Note, aglovale and old hallowed blade are 2h
Note, both reset your ward and one is extremely rare.
it's good to remember this detail too
slow frigate
Note, both reset your ward and one is extremely rare.
While fey neman has better atk stat, 1h and actually gives ward
2h in general need a boost on offensive stat so that they don't need to rely on trev charms to compete with 1h
potent sonnet
Note, aglovale and old hallowed blade are 2h
Cool, I have never seen them
potent sonnet
2h in general need a boost on offensive stat so that they don't need to rely on ...
Exactly so
potent sonnet
Ursa currently means.
Any attempt to vary or not comply with what is written means compromising the performance of your class.
austere fable
Point 1 and 4 are the same thing, and the other 2 are literally valid for every class
Not using sequencer as heretic? You are compromising the performance of your class
Not using riftlocks as summoner? Your raids take twice as long
It's just an optimal playstyle, you aren't forced into it
lucid tundra
The problem is not getting stuck with the Trev Charm, it's having to use them to compare the damage with a 1h weapon and offhand. And it's still far away
Two-handed weapons are horrible
potent sonnet
Point 1 and 4 are the same thing, and the other 2 are literally valid for every ...
You're right, it could be the same, I didn't pay attention, at point 4 I just wanted to say that you can't play defensive ursa. With the subject of specialties it is also the same, as Gilga base, I can go Ranger, oracle, cata, zwei, Berseker, raider Any of this specialty is very good and you do not have performance problems. Ursa can but is not so like that
wary reef
Two-handed weapons are horrible
I'd say Ymir feathers are good, and celestial 2H may get a 6th slot in the near future. What 2H needs is more secondary attacks (especially the celestial ones)
austere fable
honestly bastion is such an insane offhand ability compared to literally anything else