Heart of Change - Opinion Thread (no discussion)

[heavy skiff]

This thread serves for people to vocalise their opinion without being drowned in others'.
This thread has a SIX HOUR SLOW-MODE ENABLED - If you want to add anything to what you've already said, edit your message instead of waiting to send a new one.
Post your feelings towards the Heart of Change, without arguing other people's opinions (that can stay in the other Heart of Change thread).
This ensures everyone can be heard, in an environment that will be easy to read back for NF.

Just say what crosses your mind - no judgement from anyone :)

EDIT: To keep this place free from biases and judgement, I'd appreciate it if people didn't react to messages. I will be deleting reactions. If you want to agree or disagree with something, simply write your own message stating your opinion - but not in response to someone else's message. Your own, independant thoughts on the matter.

It is also available on the Runeshop

[molten current]

I dislike the Heart of Change. I’ll start by saying this change is mostly aimed at higher leveled players. I think it sets a complicated precedent that will evolve into another problem eventually. I don’t like the idea of extremely abled players to have a head start. The grind that everyone has done to get to their current AL is fair. For everyone. Reducing that grind to jump to another class is a problem, especially with that type of players. Metas are lasting for months currently. That’s too long and leveling ascensions is too easy.

I don’t think boredom is a good reason either, that’s more about the game than the class. You’ll be bored either way because you still have to do the exact same thing.

Players that decide what class to play based on meta, skills, or class abilities, will still end up regretting their choice later.

If it is going to be implemented anyways, I think a limit on ALs affected is required. “Refunds last 10 ALs” or so. And if there are going to be multiple items for different amounts of ALs, then have them be much more expensive. I think tower shard cost should go up, and orns and gold be returned at 50%. That the grind to get one of the hearts is serious enough to discourage players from chasing it more than once.

Or make it a once per account thing.

Or just don’t put it at all.

And remove it from runeshop. This will be easily abused. It should be a grind, like everything in this game has always been. Just a tougher grind since it affects ALs, which is the toughest grind in the game currently.

[cosmic depot]

The presence of the Heart in the Runeshop is my one and only concern

[tribal meadow]

I like the system, doesn't harm me. I probably won't ever use it tho cause i'm pretty happy with my class choices right now.

If i were to consider a full respec, I'd be able to buy the Heart in a week or two. Bigger problem would be to stock up on orns (not gold cause duh).
50 AL (my current highest) cost about 3,2b orns which would be a huge grind but its doable in two months if i'd really chase after it.

I love that the system doesn't enable constant class switching.

Only thing i hate to see is the rather big price in the runeshop, just remove that. This game is a grind and 300k shards isn't "even" a big one.

[lunar slate]

Just to note - Ascensions are being addressed in an update following this balance patch. The Heart of Change is not the solution there, nor has it been posed as that. Thanks 🙂

[mild ruin]

I have a lot of opinions on this that I may add later but for now I'll just post what I will do:

• spend $ as necessary to refund all my AL's across the 3-4 classes that have greater than AL 10
• rationale: not going to grind tower shards for this (my time is worth more than the 15 hours or so to grind the 300k shards, which works out to be about $1/hr, no brainer to use cash
• i will also not actually ascend any other class, because i've come to realize you don't really need ascensions in this game and that's a hamster wheel i'm gladly get off of with this change
• i am looking forward to further updates re: ascension because i think that system is super meh (it's my least favorite thing about the game by a long mile), so in the mean time at least i get my mats back

[topaz basalt]

I like the implementation. Price seems bit high tho. Maybe 10 bucks? Also like this thread mode. Its really tiresome to read the messages from the same 10 people trying to impose a point of view on each subject in this discord.

[dry sequoia]

I'll second that this seems like a bandaid. Please wait until the ascension update and fix the whole thing instead of just giving players a way to get more materials back.
I would like to be able to freely change classes without feeling penalized for doing so. (Ex: going from high AL class A to low AL class B feels bad.) Spending materials on classes you wont use much also feels bad.
That said, I will never use this item, so it is clearly not meant for me.

[open totem]

I dislike it.

It's unclear to me what problem respecs are solving, and ultimately, this just feels like a diminishing of gameplay.

In addition to not being a useful thing, the current implementation makes it extremely valuable for very high ascensions, and either not valuable or of negative value for low ascensions. It also does nothing for players that have ascended several classes, and it's mostly targeting people who have large ascension in a single class.

[lunar horizon]

As an actual low ascension level player I see a value in this. At AL15 I have exhausted many materials. Meaning to just ascend another class would take much more effort. Its hard for players at the top to realize that though. I would argue its less valuable for higher AL players due to a higher loss of orns.

[drifting frost]

I like the option to respec, I consider it basic in any rpg with builds involved. The material grinding is very tedious so getting them back while the orn/gold cost in doing new ascension is just enough to stop most abusers. However I think NF should focus in general t10-11 players to balance ascension and respec, not only in the high ascended. The respec would allow more build experimentation in the late game. The cost in shards is nice for a good grinding, and the option in runeshop is fine for more laidback players, i dont consider it a pay to win. Currently I am not sure if i am really going to use it, because I am happy with my ascended class, but having that option at the begining of t10 would have allowed me a more relaxed approach and i would have tried more builds, and classes. The ascension system softlocks you on one gamestyle , and this "reset" helps to give longevity to the game, when someone gets bored or frustated with one gamestyle.

On the other side, I see the runeshop cost too high, and maybe the cost in shards too high for a casual or low t10 player, but a bit low for a high ascended player. The cost could be related to the amount or ascension levels reverted. The cost progression could follow something similar to the cellestial weapons upgrade costs, where the first levels had a somewhat lowcost while the last levels require a more severe investment.

[untold lance]

The HoC might not be the ideal solution, but:
1: NFS listened
2: acknowledged ALs need a rework (to be addressed at a later time)
3: HoC made available as an interim measure.

Those who are impatient will either fork out $, or farm shards.
Neither seem unreasonable & even the $ is not p2w: you won't get more mats; what's more, you will be penalized from the orns/gold perspective.

It's something; let's test, gather the data, & adjust course as needed. NFS will clearly not be able to please everyone & this should not be the goal.

[tidal finch]

Broadly speaking, I don't have an issue with an ability to refund ascensions. Classes change, life changes, goals change, the game itself is constantly changing. The desire to play a different class without suffering the (potentially massive) power loss is understandable.

That said, I don't like this implementation, and I really don't like the idea of it being in the rune shop.

---

The current implementation solves ~nothing for players that are struggling to get past ascension 10. In the amount of time it will take them to grind out 300k shards, they are better off spending that time in dungeons/raids to farm the materials and orns to ascend the class they want to play instead. Depending on how many towers they clear to get the 300k, the floor rewards alone might cover the mats for a few ascension levels.

I also worry about how players who aren't active on discord/reddit/social media will perceive the item. The smart thing to do for them is just to keep grinding and spend the 300k shards elsewhere, but I expect a lot of folks will grind out the 300k shards and be worse off for it. Given that this group likely makes up a majority of the T10/T11 player base, this solution falls short, and is potentially more harmful than helpful.

At the same time, the cost is nowhere near prohibitive enough for the end game population. 300k shards sounds like a lot, but I can do that in a week if I want to. I cannot, under any circumstance, grind out the materials to go from 0-50 on another class in a week. It has taken me >1 year to do it the first time. This group of people also won't be prohibited by orns in the same way as the rest of the player base, as many of the people in this group already have hundreds of millions to billions of orns stored.

It doesn't make sense to me for this system to reward the players who are already reaping the rewards of the ascension system, as they are the ones who will benefit most from the respec. If anything, this system should be aimed at the (pardon the phrase) turbo casuals. The ones who won't ever get to ascension 20, but still want to explore the other classes without feeling like they wasted the effort.

If we are going to go the route of refunding ascensions, I'd much rather see a scaling cost associated with the number of ascensions being refunded. Something like the cost of each level being equal to 1000*(1.05^ascension level). This would make ascension level 100 be worth 131,501 shards alone, and the total shard cost of refunding 100 ascensions equal to 2,740,526. While the total cost of refunding ascensions 1-10 equal to 13,206.

---

I'm also hesitant to say whether or not this is actually fixing an issue. If the main point is to help those who can't farm out another 1,000 solarite because their kingdom isn't active enough, then the issue is still with the ascension system itself, rather than refunds being necessary.

If the issue is people want to try another class but won't because they are locked into ascension 50 on one character, then this is an issue that has been discussed to death on this discord and I'm not sure constantly available respecing is the answer. There have been several other ideas I've seen proposed that I like much more than this.

Basically, this just feels like a bandaid on a bullet wound to the current ascension system.

I know that changes are coming to the system, and if I'm being honest, releasing information on the heart before we know what those changes are feels like a mistake. I can't make a full assessment or opinion of how the heart will integrate into the game without knowing what other ascension changes are coming. The way I view the respec is going to be wildly different if ascensions are hard/soft capped at 25, versus 50, versus no cap at all, versus a rework of the materials needed. It also sets a weird expectation in people's heads that will now play into that larger conversation, which I don't think will necessary be a good thing.

---

And with all of the said, my biggest single issue is still it being available on the rune shop. Orna, fundamentally, is a game about grinding. It takes hundreds or thousands of kills to get the high roll ornate of specific items, hundreds of towers to get ornate titan augments, thousands and thousands of dungeons to reach high AL levels, and so on. Adding in a purchase options to directly bypass a grind in a grind based game is bad.

To reuse what I wrote earlier on the issue about them being purchasable for the sake of convenience:
I don't believe this falls into a "convenience" issue at all. Ascensions are the endgame content we have, and endgame should not be convenient. It should be a grind and a commitment to see results, and adding the heart to the rune shop is directly counter to the idea of long term, endgame content that requires purposeful decision making.

---

And finally, no matter what happens with the item, I won't be using it. I like my realmshifter, and once I get AL 50 there it is on to Beo and eventually Gilga.

I have always been in favor of making sure the game is accessible to all, and I just happen to disagree with the specific approach for this part of the game.

Much love to NF, and may the Orna gods have mercy on your souls as you navigate this mine field

[gentle halo]

I like it.

I don't want to use the classes I've ascended and will happily use this once to get all my delicious materials back.

Gold and Orn grind is a very easy thing to do nowadays compared to way back, and they aren't as valuable anymore. Ask any of top 10 players their orn balance, and even a lose of billions is basically nothing when coupled with extreme playstyle and use of alt dungeons.

Runeshop acquisition is a little strange, and locking them to towers is weird (Ascension and Towers are connected lore wise somehow?)

[cloud lichen]

Personally speaking I think this is a good compromise step in terms of the situation of people not really being happy with their ALs anymore. It isn't a full return, but it's returning the most important pieces in my opinion.

However I am concerned about the choices of in-game cost and the choice to add this item to the rune shop. 300k Tower Shards is a big ask for casual players. To then offer an instant gratification purchase to me steps off the track of how I felt Orna's monetization has been going. Most purchases, save for some packs in HoA, have been in lock step. They tend to either a cheaper purchase on the market or a lower effort in game grind. This new runeshop choice steps away from that in a way that we see frequently with "higher quality" games from "triple A" studios where this pay for convenience method is a proposed solution to get around an arguably significant grind. Tone down the in-game cost at the least.

[mild ruin]

My actual opinions:

• I think this game's grind is based on gear (to which I broadly mean things you can equip so toss in pets, amities, etc. into that bucket as well)
• As such, I don't think ANY lock-in should exist for things that are not part of the main "grind dimension" of gear
• This includes things like: class swaps (currently free), spec swaps (currently nominal orn cost)
• I'd argue ascensions is an extension of a player's levels, i.e. if I can swap the first 250 levels for free (we don't ask players to level 0-250 over and over again for each class they want to try) why can't I swap the next x levels (which functionally is what ascensions are) for free?
• Lock-in post 250 is exactly what causes the claustrophobia / boredom, I've spent my effort in grinding for gear, let me just use it on a character without feeling handicapped
• Heart of Change puts a heavy cost for anything beyond 250 that I think is too much. Swap 1-250 for free. Swap 300 (250 + 50 asc in this example) for 3 billion orns plus the cost of the item itself.
• I'd argue for item to be nominally free to use (if anything 300k tower shards is too much) and have the main cost be the orns you've paid to essentially be a non-refundable deposit you've lost - for example 15k shards / $0.99 in runeshop / also appears in the wild just like shrines
• I'd also like some solution for people with multiple ascensions because if it's in the runeshop, someone with 2 x 10 AL's is going to pay way more than the person with 1 x 50 AL's, I don't think that's fair for the former cohort

[devout oasis]

I've been waiting for something like that for so long, I don't think that orn gains is that easy, it will probably take me half a year to get back all the orns I spent on ascension and that will probably be the same for a player with 10-20 ascension but who doesn't play that much. So I think it would be better if Hearth returns something like 50% orns[/gold].

I don't mind that it's on runeshop, some poeple don't like tower gameplay or value their time differently so as long as it can't be abused I see no issue with that but the price seems way too high compared to other things. I saw a some complains about it being of runshop but who doesn't abuse orn shrine ? Orn shrine is totally Pay2Win in my opinion, yes the rewards depends on how you use it and it's possible to gain one by going outside and walking 30min to find one but it's the same with Hearth of Change.

Finally I think that it would be better to [completly] rework ascension system and late game loop instead/before providing an item like that but I think that it is better than ascension reversal :)

[lyric grove]

I dislike the Heart of Change.

While I agree there needs to be some mechanism to allow for flexibility with regard to ascensions, I feel like the Ascension system needs updated / fixed / changed before the HoC is implemented.

If NFS decides to go forward with releasing the Heart of Change, my main concern is Cost.

$15 is exorbitant for resetting the ascension levels on one class. $1 is more in line with the value you'd be getting out of a reset in my opinion.

300k shards. I complete few Towers because of how much time they take, and 300k shards are going to take me forever to farm, plus I'd rather be spending those shards on classes and weapons.

[fluid bison]

overall I love this change
pros
It allow more flexibility for all players to enjoy all stuff by time
it alao benefits to pvp tournament since ascension endless power creep ruins it all
now, the HoC provide a alternatives to let pvp earn some flexibility
(e.g. ascension capped competition)

cons
less burden for high AL players respec since they have high quality progression booster and mastering the farming strategy. also, avalible in runeshop is a p2w for them.(the purchased one should have a cap for AL use)

[upper field]

This idea is very interesting, besides from top player abusing it and it being in the item shop for this price…
I would fully support that
I would love being able to get my mats back and trieng some fun build on some low tier classes like arcanic ,this would make the game much more viable and maybe there will be some sort of new meta…
Who knows?

[storm hamlet]

I find it wrong to forcebly lock players to a class in a game where multi-classing is allowed. I doubt I will use this because I like mages too much despite incoming nerfs, but it is a rightous option to have. Variety is great in a video game. Locking people to a class they are bored of is terrible.
Also, developers are entitled to make money. If a very small amount of people are respecting at huge orn cost to chase the meta all my respect towards them. I don't understand the desire to punish other people's freedom.

[warped pecan]

Just to say i'm perfectly ok with this being in the runeshop. Doing tower is the absolute no-fun for me in this game and i know i'm not the only one feeling that way (way too much time consuming). I barely farm for celestial weapons/class even if i really want my celestial class.
So i think it is perfectly fine to offer the Heart through runeshop AND through tower farm. And i'm perfectly fine with NF gaining some more money too.

Oh and i cant see any P2W here. It is AT WORST pay to fast for peoples who already invested a shitload amount of time in the game. But since you loose all invested orns, if you respec your AL50 class, you'll not end-up with another AL50 class right after.
Just a gentle reminder that AL 49>50 cost between 100 and 150millions orns, and minimum cost for AL 0 to 20 is 342 millions orns (but minimum cost is almost impossible, so reality is more around 360/380million). Even for really active and god-geared players, it is a a massive investment.

[eternal pagoda]

Core problems of AL still stay, but it isn’t supposed to fix them. All in all it’s an acceptable interimssolution. I don’t see any way this affects our gameplay in a negative way. High AL players already farmed those mats, so why take 3/4 away just to respec in a game that’s constantly evolving and is almost requiring you to change builds / class depending on content.

Shard costs seems abnormal and def not worth the time investment. Rather just Buy it (don’t see any P2W here) May include a 50/75% orn & gold payback in the tower bought version.

[gentle halo]

I haven't done a tower in weeks/month, and secretly hoping HoC isn't locked into them.

[cold goblet]

I’m a long-time player. I’ve refunded Ascension levels because I just completely lost interest in a class.

I think players should be given the flexibility to refund ALs. I’d personally like to see the Orns/Gold refunded as well, especially since manually doing 1 AL at a time offers those resources back, and that’s free.

I like the idea of A Change of Heart. It would give me the option to grab all those ascension materials, gold, and Orns to put towards another class that I’m really interested in at the time.

Does that mean that anyone refunding all their ascension levels will be able to instantly put those same levels into another class? No, because the material requirements are up to RNG, so you might not be getting the required materials.

I do think that it is cost-prohibitive, which will keep some players to shy away from it.

I also understand some players who are higher up there in ALs are against it; You have to keep in mind that this affects newer players who might have invest in a class and decide they don’t like it.

I think at the end of the day, giving players more control over their CHARACTER (Class, skills, ALs, etc.) is what really counts.

[violet bramble]

I'm ok with it being mats only going forward but feel like a one time orn and gold refund would be a nice gesture by NF.

[quasi comet]

I don't like it. If you want to play a different class, just start ascending it.

[sterile sleet]

Preferring someone to have a previously ascended class they hate sitting there unused with hundreds to thousands of hours of investment over wanting to give them the option of swapping and a huge cost of orns is just weird to me. Hoc just gives people options... People are more likely to jump back into the game if they are stuck using a class they didn't like and aren't motivated to farm hundreds of raids again... Some kingdoms don't wanna support people spamming morrigan for days, seriously. It won't even affect anyone else not swapping.

[carmine citrus]

Making it free for everybody and limit it to 1 or 2 per year seems the most fair solution for me, whatever cost in tower shard can be steep or impossible for some people who cannot/dont want to do towers, having it only in runeshop is not fair to who don't want/cannot spend money. If there is no limit per character some people would still end up abusing it. Having it limited amd free would grant fairness for everybody I reckon

[supple shale]

» I think refund things except orns and gold is a good way to prevent people from abusing class swap.
However, I would like to suggest making a warning box before refunding materials. There are definitely users who don't read item descriptions carefully, and this feature could be fatal if used by mistake. Example, if someone at asc 100 were to use it while they had 0 orn/gold, this would effectively make them back to asc 0 because they can't ascend lack of orn/golds. the lower asc, the less earning. we all know. If I were to make this mistake, I'd feel more frustrated than excited.

» Users who want to reset their Asc lvl are unlikely to be able to change jobs immediately when they want to. They have to earn orn/golds 'before' reset as to minimize spec loss. (since the reason they're getting their materials refunded instead of a 1/3 return is likely an act of speeding up spec recovery).

» I think paying for HoCs in shards might be harsh because you'll have to get new celestial weapons and Celestial classes for your new class. So acquiring HoC other than in shards, like sell HoCs in the runeshop, is a good idea. I also think selling Hoc in runeshop is not a P2W.

Finally, thank you for providing this place where I can post my thoughts not worrying about reactions/replies. It takes courage to post a long comment in the middle of a fiery discussion

[grand lake]

I think Heart of Change is a great idea. This game is a grind, and I honestly think that's part of what makes it fun. And I also think there is something to be said about needing to make mindful decisions as we play.

That being said, I hate to see players feeling disillusioned because they've invested so much time into a class that they'd rather not play anymore. Ultimately the game is supposed to be fun. I think giving players the opportunity to try new classes without feeling like theyve lost hundreds of hour sunk into a previous class is great. And most importantly, I don't feel like someone else deciding they want to take advantage of HoC makes the game any less special or fun for myself.

Other changes Id like to see alongside would be first to minimalise the RNG impact in the ascension system. Players should get the same benefit for the same cost/effort. Secondly (more controversially) Id like there to be a more reliable way to get Orn boosting gear. Players with good BoGs (as an example) have a hige advantage in farming Orns over hundreds of hours of farming. I totally get the argument that they should be rewarded for making the effort to get those. But the disparity is that someone can get a good BoG on dungeon #500, but for someone else it could be #3,000. Im not saying make it easier, Im saying make it more reliable. Similar cost/effort, similar reward.

Thank you John for setting up this thread like this - I think it creates a bit of psychological safety which means hopefully we'll get everyone's genuine thoughts.

[viscid gate]

I don't think there's anyway to address this unless it is tracked somewhere, I'm not against the heart of change as it'll help people out, but I'm just sad there's been a lot of wasted AL reversal