Ultima changes

[ancient oracle]

[PvE/PvP] Ultima/Ultima II: Decreased damage multipliers by 20%, increased output by 20%
[PvE/PvP] The damage of Omnimancy spells can no longer be increased by geared elemental boosters (Bulwark, Elysian Balance, etc)

Also screenshot of ultima being weaker in beta pvp which isnt listed in the patch note, no one made a thread yet so here it is

[severe roost]

I'm particularly interested in the pvp-specific numbers, whether that's an M1 or M2 cut. Not in a position to test right now.
I'm expecting/hoping M2 cut

An M2 cut means the Ultimas are still the best piercing options, so still have a good place there.
An M1 cut drops them below most of the other staples, while being 2 turns rather than 1, so it's only really good vs Deity

also curious why it has a damage range now, thought it was just an M1/M2 adjustment

[simple frigate]

Now Ultima is a 3.2 M1 1.2 M2 spell, right?

Or maybe it's a 1.2 M2 max/Average

[true notch]

I don't think I know enough to really weigh in with stats, I can just say it feels real bad to put all my ascensions in deity, spend months building a cool deity Ultima build that I love, and then trying beta and the damage being worse than halved haha! Edit: note this is mainly due to the OP celestial adorn nerf.

[simple frigate]

Well, Ultima has known to be a really overpowered spell, now with the removal of Omnimancy boosters, it plays fair with all the other spells

[true notch]

I feel like at 2 turns and min level 245, it should at least be a lil stronger than other spells. But yeah I get it was too strong

Maybe they should make it like spiked shield and have increased effectiveness on deity, considering it is a deity spell

[simple frigate]

Something like SS imo should never happen again, if you wanted to use Ultima optimally, Heretic was the choice either way, with deity you can still use spells from essentially all the other classes without almost any downside

Ultima still is the highest M1 spell in the game, having 3.2 M1 and 0.6 M2 average counting with the 2 turns

It's also the spell with the highest base crit%

[true notch]

I just find it weird that the best user of a skill is not the class the skill comes from, I don't know of any other skill like that, once again I'm not the most knowledgeable

[simple frigate]

Gilga was exactly like that

[true notch]

Is there any other skill that's better on another class ATM? Or just Ultima on heretic

[simple frigate]

Also, arguably you can say that Realmstrikes is better with Deity than RS since the current state of RS

[true notch]

More of an argument than Ultima tho right

[severe roost]

Gaits would be the obvious

[simple frigate]

Ultima is a crit spell, so it makes sense it deals more dmg with a crit class

[severe roost]

Spiked Shield (was/is?) better on Deity than Gilga

not sure what state the off-class penalty for SS is in right now

[simple frigate]

SS was, it got nerfed to only work at 50% efficiency if i'm not wrong

[lapis sky]

Seals would better on Heretics that Dieties, especially Seals III that can crit

[simple frigate]

Deity has a lot more survivality though, and can equip any equipment, that's what makes it strong, it can be everything, but not as strong

Seals give the Hp that Ara can have, and that Heretic already has

[lapis sky]

Here has that sweet 2.5 crit multiplier tho

[simple frigate]

So you want Deity to also have x2.5 or make seals not crit?

I'm not getting your point

[lapis sky]

Direct response to this, nothing more

[simple frigate]

gunnr

Snotra

[true notch]

Ty for the responses btw!

[simple frigate]

Kara & Eir also if you want to tank X or Y with Deity/ gilga

You can also use Verse better with Deity than Beo

[true notch]

I meant damaging abilities really :p but Ty for being thorough

As otherwise we'd start saying golems fortitude etc

[simple frigate]

Golem's is actually a mage line spell and it's better for mages because of att- xD

Bear's might is something though

Anyway, the point of the game is to keep unlocking spells from all the classes and combining them to get builds. Deity is the absolute mix on that

[severe roost]

Other classes would beat Deity for damaging skills purely because Deity's base offense is lower than the dedicated damaging classes (and its defenses stronger in exchange)

[simple frigate]

Deity has auto-casted dc though

Or stats+ with celestials

So the dmg can be equal or even more!

Also, beacuse of the more defensive stats, Deity can get to use more risky playstiles that other classes could not get away with, like Using Hererobe for more dmg instead of focusing on survivality

[open echo]

with this nerf i dont think so, what are the M1 of holy arrow?

wasn't 3.7?

[simple frigate]

You mean Celestial Arrow from Heretic Corvus?

[open echo]

yeah

[simple frigate]

gonna check it

[open echo]

in beta i have more damage value in celestial arrow than ultima 1

[simple frigate]

Yes, It's 3.7

I didn't knew there was a high m1 spell like that one

[open echo]

because people only remember the top 1 anything, if something is not top 1 is bad...

[simple frigate]

No, it's because I never checked it, I did it for all the mage spells but not that one. Can it crit?

[open echo]

yes

right now ( beta) this one and ultima works almost at the same level

[simple frigate]

This one should work even better than Ultima at the same level

0.5 m1 in exchange for 0.1 m2

[open echo]

no, ultima continues to have the 140% damage multiplier on weakness, this one has 50% more damage with holyblight and 104% damage increase between celestial addorn and akala achlys addorns

[simple frigate]

Isn't 140% less than 104% + 50%?

[open echo]

i said almost, not the same xD

[simple frigate]

and I said that Arrow would be better xD

Is there a holyblight dragon?

Well, there's Rhada

[open echo]

all of them xD

ah, holy? ymir with all of them and gorynch with holy and darkness

[simple frigate]

Ymir has low proc with prismablight though

I'd go with rhada for Celestial arrow

[lapis sky]

Rhada has Holy Sigil, bot Holyblight

[open echo]

rhada is blight or sigil?

[lapis sky]

Sigil only increases by 15% I believe

Use Gory

[open echo]

20 and not activate ultima weakness

[simple frigate]

Oh yeah it's sigil, smh

Gorynch should do then

[warped otter]

i feel like ultima was nerfed too much

going back to major's post here
#1084736327800606853 message

if we take out the elemental multipliers from gear, it looks like this

Ultima I

M1=4.6, M2={weak=2.33, nonweak=0.975} = {weak=~10.718, nonweak=~4.485}/turn

with the M1 and M2 changes it looks like this:
(since it has a range now, i'll say M2 is 1.1)

M1=3.68, M2={weak=2.563, nonweak=1.0725} = {weak=~9.43, nonweak=~3.95}/turn

that's at half the power in PVE, and halve one more time for PVP

i'd like at least to have the damage multiplier (M1) reverted, since PVE content (i mostly care about endless)
just got 10% harder
and ultima's high M1 helps a lot in there

[open echo]

M2 should be 1.2 if we take the +20% output part

[severe roost]

either the announcement was wrong or the in-game display's wrong. But in-game it appears as a range rather than a flat power

(and it's 1 to 1.2, avg 1.1; it'd need to be 1 to 1.4 for it to be +20% M2 on average)

[tulip sierra]

I think the ultima nerf is extremely excessive. Haven’t gotten to test yet though. But m1 reduction and no boosters? Way too much for a multi turn spell. Especially in pvp, where it’s already bad. Will amities and rhadas also stop working on it? How about classes? Will they still reduce damage when red numbers go up? I don’t see any way this is a good nerf.

I don’t even understand the direction of the balance patch. Don’t think summoners got hit at all. 20% reduction to penetration is nothing considering they don’t even get buffs from celestial weapons. Meaning their damage will only go down 20%. Whats 20% of 150k when high hp is considered 50k?

DPS classes. What is that now? What’s a defensive class? Do we even have those anymore? And this isn’t a rant. I’m really pointing out things I think are being overlooked or not dealt with or maybe simply I’m just not understanding

The sacrifice realm and heretic have to do to be a “DPS class” no one else does. In fact, they can put up equal numbers while adding defenses.

[glass seal]

One has to wonder sometimes

[floral sinew]

Ultima may now only be worth it on sequencer because of the chance to cast in one turn. On oracle with double crit amity the single turn spells vastly outperform it.
Haven't tested sequencer but that's the only way I see it possibly gaining some ground. Probably not enough though

[floral sinew]

Especially for PvP with the existence of elemental resist amities and Rhada souls 2 turns for Ultima is hard to justify in the current turn economy meta. I didn't feel like Ultima was relevant for PvP even before the patch.

[severe roost]

and the pvp-specific halving, don't forget that

[tulip sierra]

Yeah. The nerf is way way overboard. I felt it should’ve been completely the other way around. It needed nerfs in pve. In pvp it was already struggling. I’d even go as far as saying it needs a buff for pvp. It’s the only 2 turn spell from any class that has the potential to see play in a 1 turn meta, and it’s just too easy to counter.

Only way I see it even worth trying out (I will anyways) is rhadas and elemental immunities also being canceled out with the omnimancy nerf. And still…not sure it would work because it gets halved out the gate with the class resistance from the opponent

20% Crit from a celestial weapon currently? That’s an 8 slot weapon. Need a lot of Ashens to get to 75….

[floral sinew]

?
I must have missed that

[severe roost]

literally in the first message 😛

[floral sinew]

Oh lol. Yeah I skipped that. No wonder it's this bad

Hm, Ara Vesta 2 is now stronger than Ara vesta 1 at the same cost

And can hit an additional enemy.

[severe roost]

2.3 M1 vs 2.2 (both down from 2.5 in live)

was probably meant to be the other way around lol

[floral sinew]

Yeah, doesn't really make sense

That's with ~8.5k mag

[severe roost]

are you sure

looks more like ~6152

(as do the other spells)

[floral sinew]

Yeah, Trev charms seem to work for the stats page but not spell power

My bad

Hm, no

I went down to 4k magic, the numbers stay the same

[severe roost]

right loadout?

cus yeah, even the non-AV spells are consistent with around 6153 mag

[floral sinew]

Yeah, changed and looked at PvP stuff only

Ok

Looks like "spells" only pulls from world loadout. I didn't know that

Anyway, need to sleep.

[grave oriole]

re: math above, the shift we'll be seeing is to m1 = 4, m2 = 1 to m1 = 3.2, m2 = 1.25 (for Ultima I). Output will be similar on low res enemies, while keeping Ultima II still the highest pen player useable spell in the game

re: elemental boosters - reminder that they were only introduced in the amity patch. removing them brings ultima back to the state it was this time last year (+ a couple other ways to boost damage, ie: weakness amplifiers). It was still very relevant this time last year

[grave oriole]

re: summoners - i'd recommend checking out the patch notes in totality. Summoner PvP domination is largely caused by battalions, which received sizeable PvP adjustments in the patch (+counters) in this patch

[tulip sierra]

Yay! Thanks for answering. I’d do a counter argument against that. I’d say that another part that is very over powered with GS is the ability to shut down second chance on first turn. Usually glass cannons have a defensive mechanism, mystic feather or second chance. GS has no problem taking on second chance opponents and still get boosts to their defense (that have been lowered). Tbh, I thought that it was a well known problem. BP reduced is decent enough, but the summons getting that first turn hit in will still be a problem after the patch.

Just want to get you thinking.

[grave oriole]

if those continue to keep (any) class dominant in PvP, we should be able to adjust. For now, Battalions is showing itself to be the largest factor for wins, so tackling it is important

[tulip sierra]

Oh. I forgot. With Riftrogue gear, they don’t miss now.

[tulip sierra]

Got ya. Thanks for the reply

[warped otter]

i'm curious about one thing related to summoners
since T10 monsters have 10% extra stats does this mean that summons also have that 10% extra?

[lunar comet]

Was anything done about amities that resist only 1 element 80% working totally against ultima?

[floral sinew]

They still work the same in the beta

[dense tapir]

re: elemental boosters - I didn't even realize Bulwark came out after amities, had to double check, hah. I haven't seen anyone including amity elemental bonuses when estimating the % delta, given that such a small number of people have a crit + elemental damage amity.

That said, is it fair to say that other things have also progressed in the last year? At first glance, it seems like its unique position/build is gone, and it's been gutted hard enough that it's only relevant with weaknesses/blights in play. Maybe I'm being melodramatic, but for a 2-turn, level 245 spell it feels like a bit of a bummer.

[lunar comet]

Replying to me?

[floral sinew]

Yep

[lunar comet]

They should be nerfed too, to keep in line with the spell. But oh well.

[dense tapir]

idk, I'm not too far away from those "struggling to make fey tremor V work with a handful of morri eyes and a fero" days. Past the early/mid T10 hump, it was so neat to build into this rainbow hodgepodge of elemental bonuses. It felt like assembling Voltron or something, sad to see it go.

[lunar comet]

Have you put time into ascension?

[dense tapir]

About 15 heretic, 20 GS. I resisted for a long time, I don't like the system.

[lunar comet]

Don't invest more to heretic at all

[dense tapir]

I'm always gonna play a magic man character one way or another, but I think you might be right. Maybe deity, idk 🪦

[lunar comet]

Deity is good

Heretic is a dead class

Grand summoner will always be incredible too

[undone needle]

I just tried out Ultima in the beta and it's terrible at raids. Really feels useless now which is a bummer considering it's the highest level spell we have

[dense tapir]

The ultima nerf hit GS too, that was the best raiding option in tandem with summons. It lost even more efficacy there due to the class passive.

[lunar comet]

In raids you feel it With GS?

[dense tapir]

Yes, absolutely, Ultima was the primary source of damage. It's lost about ~50% power overall for heretics (before counting prom hand nerf), it's closer to ~70% for GS (since the class passive was a huge deal). Work together man lol, I just hope we can document how drastic the dropoff was and change opinions on it.

[lunar comet]

And the resistance is still the same, how those amities nerf ultima

[dense tapir]

Agreed, that part just seems silly.

I appreciate we have a chance to look at the balance changes and offer feedback to the devs, hope we can change some minds. Idk, half-effectiveness on elemental gear would be neat.

[open echo]

where do you get that 50% power nerf? did you calculate the damage or is simply a number you throw because potato?

and btw, even after the nerf it continues to overperform almost every single spell in the game ( except in some scenarios celestial arrow perform a little better)

[dense tapir]

You're a potato, lol. I've posted it in like six different places. Excluding amity bonus, since most use crit anyway:

1.2 (Bulwark) *1.04 ^ 10 (10 Achlys) gives you about 178%. If faction bonus is also excluded, it's another 1.25 (I suspect it is, given the GS passive no longer works either).

So, we're looking at either:
(100 - 178) / 178 for a % delta of -43% if faction was spared, or (100 - 222)/222 for -55% if it wasn't.

That's before prom hand nerf, since that affects most meta-level stuff (outside of SS/etc.)

[open echo]

you are forgetting a bonus damage that nobody except ultima gets and you should take that into account if you want to compare it to other spells. yes, the nerf is hars but you need to contextualize that to other spells, not against the vacuum

and btw, do you think that a spell that overperforms by 78% at least from the next best spell is a good thing?

[dense tapir]

Where is your 78% from? I included my math.

I'm not forgetting the context, I mentioned above. It's a 245 spell, and other things have progressed in the same time as well.

[open echo]

from your answer

1.2 (Bulwark) *1.04 ^ 10 (10 Achlys) gives you about 178%.

and please, dont insult me, i didn't insult you

[warped otter]

the next best skill is realmstrikes at 93% power of ultima

[open echo]

i said spell, no skill

skill can gain elemental bonuses so they can get the bulkward or achlys bonus

[warped otter]

ok then the next best spell is fey unstable at the same power

[dense tapir]

I just asked you where your math was. You did start off with the potato thing, but I don't take it as an insult, just frustration I suppose.

Fey Unstables can still get those bonuses too. Ultima's in a weird spot now where it can't get them at all.

[open echo]

for the faction bonus is easy to get it. get you faction+diferent element omnimancy and then the same second element and another diferent against an enemy not vulnerable to any element or vulnerable to all elements. if damage is the same faction is not included, if it's quite big then is included

[simple frigate]

I don't agree with you, Ultima is a M1 spell.

M1 spells are superior in many places to M2 spells, so I don't feel like a comparison between the 2 is good.

For example, against 1% hp Amorri Realmstrikes can usually hit for 0, meanwhile Ultima still bypasses the defense

[open echo]

taking weakness bonus or not into account?

[warped otter]

no weakness

[simple frigate]

Also a M2 spell comparied to an M1 spell, same accounts for this one

[warped otter]

because there's only 1 T10 raid with weakness

[simple frigate]

you mean non-event, right?

because there are more with event, and there is also a pet that gives elemental-blight

[warped otter]

it's b.polly, an event raid

[simple frigate]

what about Arisen ygg, it makes itself weak to holy if I remember correctly

Covyn (technically an event raid) is also weak to arcane

[warped otter]

where are we going with this?

[simple frigate]

There isn't only 1 raid with weakness, and you can also create it

[warped otter]

i believe lotan is only used for cool screenshots, not really as a main raiding pet

since you give up a lot of survivability

[open echo]

more like all of them with dragons

[simple frigate]

You can't be killed by what's already dead

[warped otter]

and if you manually cast DC then you're also wasting 3 more turns so the power/turn of ultima needs to be recalculated

[simple frigate]

No need for dc

[dense tapir]

I mean, Ultima is also a 2 turn spell FWIW. And counting Covyn separately is a huge reach lol, come on man.

[open echo]

why people is so fixed in lotan? gorynch give a hell lot more of survivality and gives blights

[warped otter]

i'm just going with the highest chance to apply a blight

which is 0.3x0.4=12%

[simple frigate]

The point I was trying to say there was that even nieche raids have weakness, but it turned out wrong xDD

[simple frigate]

Also, being a turn 2 spell only makes it's m2 by half, leaving still a huge portion of M1 to consider

[warped otter]

anyway

i believe that elemental boosts should still work
at least at a fraction of their power
since ultima is a mix of 8 elements, each boost should still affect it by 1/8 imo

and in endless, ultima 2 (which takes 3 turns to cast) now has less penetration than a basic attack (4.8 vs 5.27)

[dense tapir]

Eh, even half seems like it'd be fine. It'd be strong, but it's literally the last spell you get, I mean come on.

[warped otter]

need to revert the change on ultima 2, back to M1=6

so i can still do some endless as heretic

[simple frigate]

Ultima 2 wasn't that strong compared to 1, but still got a ton of elemental boosters to back it up

[open echo]

for raids is a lot better 2, the damage is quite higher than 1

more than twice

but for endless 2 is quite risky specially at higher floors, you are letting enemies to get 2-3 turns agaisnt you so its easy to die ( and when beta goes life even worse with the fallen realms that have avidity 2 xD)

[floral sinew]

Have you tested this or just saying? From my initial test I haven't seen Ultima outperform anything, but I'll need to test some more.
Just curious, not trying to start shit.

[grave oriole]

Given it still has the highest m1 + highest damage-to-weak factor and lowest damage-to-immune factor, I would tend to agree that it will remain a solid performer

The %s calculated above really just demonstrate how problematic the inflation was

[lunar comet]

Well, it isn't objectively, Unless you decide to make it a 1 turn. Seem it in the beta now clearly with the numbers backing it up. The nerf is over the top. The amities that resist it absolutely need to be nerfed as well. Put that with heretics being easy to kill by design and its a teardown of the class, it isn't a glass cannon anymore. It's just glass.

[warped otter]

it will be a solid performer, but only against enemies that have a natural weakness (titans, b.polly, hydra, nidhogg, yggdrasil)
for other enemies, non-element spells will be better 100% of the time

but did ultima 2 also need an m1 nerf?

[open echo]

are you sure? ultima continues to do full damage agains both resistant and inmune monsters

and again, all monsters, specialy raid bosses can be make weak agains any element

[grave oriole]

m1 nerf but an m2 buff. This will only matter against higher res opponents. It still remains highest player spell m1 in the game

[open echo]

i tryed thereticaly, like major did in a previous post, i didn't mirror my character beta ( and i dont want to do) but taking into account both the M1 of both ultimas and the options available, it continue to perform quite good ( obviously not so much as before)

wasn't celestial arrow M1 3.7?

[grave oriole]

I believe 3.7 is correct

[open echo]

a, ok, ultima 2

[warped otter]

i saw the buff to m2, but outside endless there isnt anything that can reduce ultima 2's damage through res

and now the spell has worse piercing than normal attack with all buffs

while being 3 turn cast

[grave oriole]

Exactly - outside of endless and pvp, the change won't be too visible

Attack has a different calc, it wouldn't be a fair example

[warped otter]

ok

but then why the small nerf in endless?

[open echo]

why ultima 2 in endless when 1 can be used more eficiently?

[warped otter]

because if i wanna go past 400, i'll need ultima 2 's piercing power

[grave oriole]

We'll, if it's still 0'd out at 5 m1, it's still the best option on the game

[warped otter]

i still believe the spell is nerfed way too much, especially ultima 2

other classes have their ways to combat high resistance enemies

• realm: huge piercing on attack / chance to -def
• gilga: huge piercing on SS
• summoner: VSS for --def/res
• beo: not great but Verse
• heretic/deity: ultima / 2-3 turn cast while taking zerk damage + dex issues

i'm not sure how many people were doing endless with mage classes but it's still a noticeable high floor nerf

also, out of curiosity, can i have an answer to this please?

since T10 monsters have 10% extra stats does this mean that summons also have that 10% extra?

[open echo]

how much is the M1 of the SS skills?

[lunar comet]

And amities 80% resistance

[open echo]

hes talking about endless, not pvp

[lunar comet]

Ah right, fair. Keep that into account for pvp too though. Ultima was already nerfed in pvp

[warped otter]

true, if gear doesnt boost ultima anymore, it shouldnt reduce it either

[open echo]

patch notes tell that is only the boost from equipment and passives what is affected, reductions work like always

[lunar comet]

Yes, that's the point

[cosmic flare]

I honestly don't see the issue with the 80% elemental resistance amnity. I'd much rather face someone using that, than using the 40% extra crit damage.
If they have the resistance amnity on, I just don't use Ultima.

[grave oriole]

agreed ^

counters in PvP are okay. As they don't exist in PvE (but boosters do), it can be considered less of an issue

[lunar comet]

Should be turned down with how much damage ultima has been lopped off.

Or resistance to one element not apply to ultima as whole, but only in part

[last mica]

I also dont see the point of turning down the resistance amity.

[lunar comet]

Alright...

[last mica]

We can have plenty of spells to counter someone with something like that

Magic scythe, ara vesta, transference

[grave oriole]

to play devil's advocate:

1. The Attack argument can be made with any skill/spell at any time (even current Ultima). I can't see it being appropriate for this argument
2. Spiked Shield I is capped at 3 m1 - not huge (even factoring turn count). Mages have 1 turn m1>3 spells as well, that don't cost Ward
3. Fair - VSS is good, but if we're factoring debuffs in, pen differences start to matter less
   4/5) these issues exist pre-nerf

[last mica]

Or try to guess the element with an elemental fey

[warped otter]

there goes my plan to break 1000 endless floors

[floral sinew]

Exactly. There was little point to use Ultima in PvP for the last couple of months already.

So it doesn't really matter to me, but I don't understand the reason for Ultima to deal 50% less damage in PvP than in pve in the beta right now

[tulip sierra]

I’m more worried about opponents with high defenses and ward. Y’all know Vesta, scythe and all those are real easy to zero right?

Which was a problem for a while with Gilga. Until the elemental boosters got added.

After they got added, the elemental amity could be semi countered with enough of those. Or if the opponent only used the amity and didn’t stack rhadas

But now….if the def/res are high enough to zero scythe, it’s an auto loss if they have the amity

[floral sinew]

Wait, what are those 1 turn M1>3 spells?

[tulip sierra]

I always forget. But they’re less than 3. I believe around 2.2-2.4 somewhere around there

In the beta

[floral sinew]

Was referring to this

[tulip sierra]

Oh. Nvm then

[grave oriole]

actually, I may retract that - Arcana IV was never released

So, the argument is indirect then, as Sequencer is needed

[floral sinew]

Ah, thought I had missed something crazy 😄

[oblique verge]

yeap man, i was like... mage have a 3.0 m1 spell?

[grave oriole]

t9 omnimancy is 2.7, so close!

[floral sinew]

So far I've only really tested PvP properly and I just don't see Ultima relevant there. The 50% power reduction on top of the elemental booster fixes on top of possible Rhada souls and resist amities on top of being a 2 turn spell makes it unreliable when there's alternatives like scythe, AV and others.

T9 omnimancy is too easily resisted in PvP but yeah, the M1 is really good

[grave oriole]

50% pvp reduction may be too much, I can agree with that

[floral sinew]

This makes me think that the other elementless crit skills are still overtuned but I'm not sure I want to advocate for them to be brought down. 😬😅

[grave oriole]

oh, good point - let's bring them all down!

[floral sinew]

Might be worth it in the long run

[olive sandal]

Do the 80% element redux amities still work on ultima in pvp beta?

From what im gathering, the answer is yes

In which case ultima could already be hard countered without 50% nerf in pvp so now its completely out of the question

So souls of Rhada decrease ultima damage, but soul of Achlys does not increase? Seems odd if I were a new player trying to understand mechanics

Not intuitive at all

[grave oriole]

Note the updates in #game-announcements - there is no longer a 50% decrease in PvP

[warped otter]

but still an undeserved m1 nerf where it matters the most :(

[olive sandal]

I didn't see it when i read over the new changes so maybe that's why 😅

[olive sandal]

Plenty of m1 still

[warped otter]

it was hard enough to reach mjo's record before

[grave oriole]

was the record due to ascension or m1?

[warped otter]

obviously AL but with a little luck it was beatable

but still, i dont get it
the m1 is already too high to matter anywhere other than endless
and i dont think here/deity needed a nerf there
no boosters from gear is more than enough

[olive sandal]

What was the diety nerf to ultima?

[grave oriole]

Having a lower m1 helps opponents in PvP have some mitigation against it - PvP problems predate the Amity patch

Again, this is still the highest player m1 in the game, and m2 was added to make up for it in most PvE content. it should be a pretty unsubstantial part of the patch. high floor endless is not something we'd prioritize over more common activities

[olive sandal]

@warped otter what exactly is the here / diety nerf you are having issues with?

I dont see how the m1/m2 balancing affects ultima in normal use at all

[warped otter]

the nerf means you might leave a realm or beo at low hp on earlier floors than usual
or you take 3+ hits to kill gradlon/sluagh and others

but i get it, this content is not a priority so i'll stop talking about it

[grave oriole]

don't other classes have that issue?

[warped otter]

but did they get nerfed?

[olive sandal]

Difference between floor 400 and 500 for someone like you though 🤷‍♂️

Like super elite floors vs just elite

And ya other classes have that issue

[grave oriole]

if the ultima change brings you to have the same issue as other classes, they didn't need a nerf - you did

[olive sandal]

Dont mean to gang up at all but agreed

And im victim to it too

[warped otter]

i'm sure the issues were here before, but at least there was a way to combat this

i mean, it will still be the best skill to use because of the M1

i guess i'll see when it's live

[vivid owl]

Hot damn!!!! I love the Devs!!! Prime example of Developers taking action after gathering feed back.

I was thinking this morning I wouldn’t mind the balance patch but to also add enemy difficulty increasing amongst other things was just a lot to take in

But already seeing numbers being tweaked and enemy difficulty not be implemented yet.

Love you Odie!

[last mica]

Yes, thats true. Nerfing the damage further of the skill can definitely kill it for pvp. At least before, it could have a reason to be used. It was the skill that could damage tanky enemies like buffed deities, but there was a chance (the amity) that they could have also the protection for ultima. If ultima, being two turns, becomes a lesser skill, people wont have to invest an amity slot into protecting agaisnt it. Like was said before, with the penetration value lowered and the augments and jewels interactions removed or lowered, ultima is already being severely cut down so that another pvp nerf being really needed (i am refering to the much lower damage numbers in pvp) The problem in pvp with ultima was saw with min-maxers. So I can see the point of limiting the top end of the skill, but should be a valuable and seekable skill for the 245-50s players.

[tropic kindle]

As a multi-year Bestla who recently turned to Hera for more enjoyable gameplay, I'm not a fan of this large of a nerf to ultima in PvE or in PvP. It hasn't felt super overpowered to me, but I only do a little PvP. I only do occasional PvP because it feels like I'm just going to die 80+% of the time anyway from summoners (maybe resolved in the balance?) or spend 15 minutes trying to whittle down a Gilga or get killed near instantly because they also have heavy hits.
I don't have a whole lot of numbers or a full understanding of M1\M2 like those above, and I definitely don't have the time to play with the beta, but from what I've read, I just feel annoyed\bad about it. Bestla already underperformed and left a terrible taste in my mouth after the summoner line was shown so much love and then this happens after I swap to Hera. Just feels bad.

[grave oriole]

which part of the nerf do you consider large?

always interesting to hear the thoughts about the summoner line getting love. It's definitely a popular class, but what has the studio done to show favouritism?

[minor pawn]

GS also got hit hard by the ultima nerf fyi

[tropic kindle]

The way I currently understand the change is that any equipment which synergizes with it will no longer have an impact, lowering the effectiveness. Additionally, there are values being changed that will make it do less damage per turn, but again, I don't fully understand the M1\M2 mechanics.
Lastly, the multipliers applied by weakness will be lessened.

From the back and forth, I do see that there's definitely a camp that wants things changed, but when I have done PvP, it's not Ultima taking me out.

It seems to me that Ultima is at its most powerful when there is a weakness/blight on a character or enemy. Correct me if I'm wrong, but players can't apply either of these effects and it has to either come with the enemy or be applied by a pet. If it were based off of player-cast skills, I would be more inclined to agree with a rebalance, but it's not in the hands of the player.

[minor pawn]

that was one of the two raiding methods GS could use

well and summon builds but I dont consider those to be viable at the endgame

I also gotta say that I do think the ultima nerf was quite excessive

it needed a nerf for sure, but now it only seems to be worth it on raids with elemental weaknesses

I guess GS wasnt really meant to use ultima in the first place, but now I dont see myself using it over blood pact in any scenario

even on GSH

[grave oriole]

The way I currently understand the change is that any equipment which synergizes with it will no longer have an impact

this is somewhat true, yes, and may be leading to the confusion. We're really only referring to the elemental boost affect introduced in the amity update (and then used again in Bulwark, Elysian Balance, etc). This effect was meant to add more utility to existing single-element skills, but for the most part was just over-utilized to heavily inflate Ultima numbers, given it is of all elements.

All other effects, including those pre-Amities (when Ultima was still very relevant) remain

Lastly, the multipliers applied by weakness will be lessened.

No, weakness multipliers were not lessened

It seems to me that Ultima is at its most powerful when there is a weakness/blight on a character or enemy.

Off top of head, Faction bonus booster + crit would probably outclass this (which is still an option post-patch)

[deft lava]

What has the numbers been looking like with Crit+Lotan follower setup?

[tropic kindle]

And I apologize if I insinuated favoritism. That wasn't my intention; I don't believe it's that bad. I do feel that as a new class, the bar was set incredibly high. It also largely stems from I always felt should have been an evolution of the tamer class.
The other side of that coin is I had been farming gear for Bestla for legitimately years and the Summoner line quickly outclassed what I had to the point where players multiple tiers below me were able to take me out without breaking a sweat. Though, again, I understand there are balance changes in process. But it definitely doesn't stop the bad taste that had previously occurred.

That all said, I would like to stop seeing specifically Summoner gear as quest rewards. I understand when the class was first released that it made it easier for those trying to start the class to get gear, but it's been long enough that it doesn't need to be as prolific as it is.

I have 99 jobs right now.
11 of the rewards are specifically Summoner gear. I do wholly understand that this is literally complaining about getting free mats since I'm just going to dismantle the majority of them anyway, but there's only 13 other quests which are giving any form of armor that isn't for the summoner line.
The rest are either nothing additional, potions, adornments, and miscellaneous items.

[deft lava]

Not to side track this but as a summoner why should I be getting random swords and armor and stuff for melee classes and all of that. How many of those 99 quests has armor/weapons for others?

[grave oriole]

wouldn't that be the case with any classline? wouldn't warriors not want to see 11 mage items as rewards?

[last mica]

I think that rather than reducing ultima power further in pvp i would see more fair and consistent that it should take into account armor and natural elemental resistances.

[tropic kindle]

13. I answered that question.
    My point wasn't that it doesn't need to be there, just that it's overrepresented.
    11 for one class (though I suppose bestla can wear it as well) versus 13 for every other class. If we just stake that to being four archetypes (pet/follower, thief, mage, warrior), one would presume that's 25% of the tree wouldn't take 50% of the armor-based reward

[last mica]

That way, if you bring blights into battle, you can bypass those resistances, but you are paying a "loadout" price, for example ditching phoenyx to bring Gorynich.

And that could also bring more diversity to the pet spectrum, as a side effect

[severe roost]

At least among the base classes that'd be painful. 4/6 have built-in resistance/immunity, one has a few randomly assigned each turn, and then there's Summoner I guess

[last mica]

Yes, that's right, but that would affect the final damage output, rather than penetration (multiplier?), wich could be increased with blights and sigils

[severe roost]

those don't increase M1

[last mica]

I mean, that natural resistances reduce the output, but those blights increase it, so they could be something of a counter. And on the other side, we are keeping ultima as high penetration spell, so it is difficult to zero it, but we have tools to reduce (and increase) the damage a lot in pvp, rather than behaving as a no element skill with benefits.

[lunar comet]

Objectively, you are right. They missed your point.

[floral summit]

Ultima needs to be made AoE now that it's weakened

[open echo]

or add ultima-like skills/spells ( weakness multiplier and resistant/inmune are deal 100% damage) , like the new omnimante spells but without crit

[minor pawn]

This is not really on-topic anymore but I wanted to reply to this anyway. I think it's because they want to make summoner specific gear more easily accessible outside of events. One of the complaints was that summoner gear was too event-locked with Riftfall having multiple must-have things for summoners like grimoire, riftlock, charon staves, charon souls and the rift summoner armor. All the old event raids obviously also don't have summoner specific gear since they predate the class itself, it's mainly just the new events that have some gear for it.

[grave oriole]

negative - it's really just do to the current pool and the tier of the quests being observed. Town Hall distribution:

Thief class quest reward pool: 50 items (0 T10)
Mage class quest reward pool: 55 items (1 T9, 0 T10)
Warrior class quest reward pool: 64 items (3 T9, 0 T10)
Summoner/valhallan class quest reward pool: 12 items (3 T10, 3 T9)

the reason being that summoner only exists in the late game, therefore only has gear in high tiers, therefore is more likely to be seen when solely looking at higher tier quests

[mystic niche]

@warped otter you're up buddy

[warped otter]

oh wow, now what do i do?

[mystic niche]

copy pasta your suggestion for what to change for ultima in beta and add more stuff around it for reasons

all eyes on you buddy, i still wanna go brrrrr to slam wrbs

also i swear if you say 1 thing about m1 because you wanna do endless, i'm gonna throw tomatoes at you

[warped otter]

this is copy pasted from OL:

since most of us here believe that ultima was too harshly nerfed, can we try the following change in beta and see if it makes the spell OP or not?

let elemental boost from gear still affect omnimancy, but adjust it by how many elements the spell has

so in ultima's case, it uses 8 elements
you have bulwark and 10 souls of achlys in your gear
that is dragon, dark and holy => 3/8
so the final boost will be 1.2 x 1.4 x 3/8 = 0.63
(1+(20x3/8))(1+(22x3/8))(1+(22x3/8))=1.26x

or just outright cut the boosts by 1/8

i'll be glad to try it now that mirror requests are also opened to non-patreons

[severe roost]

that particular formula seems kinda wack. Equipping a single Achlys would bump the Bulwark bonus from 1/8 to 3/8

Getting 1/8 of the bonus for each element relevant to that bonus makes more sense.
So (1+(20% * 1/8)) [Bulwark] * (1+(2% * 1/8))^10 [Achlys light] * (1+(2% * 1/8))^10 [Achlys dark] = 1.0774856blahblah ie +7.75%ish

Or if Achlys counts as two elements rather than one twice
(1+(20% * 1/8)) [Bulwark] * (1+(2% * 2/8))^10 [Achlys light+dark] = 1.0774186blahblah ie +7.74%ish... practically no difference lol

titchy numbers there

[mellow path]

I don't know if it's a good idea or not but i suggested it a long time ago let utilma still have full boost from one element you have applied the sigil/blight to in addition to the weakness DMG of ultima

[chrome meadow]

request the dragon blight to test Ultima

[warped otter]

at that point it would be better to use +mag adornments and probably get a better result

[olive sandal]

What if ultima took the element that you have the highest boost for and apply that

But not the other elements with lower boosts

That way you could still boost ultima like you can a normal elemental spell

[fast shore]

Or if it had specific gear synergy that only affected Ultima in some way. Like rift rouge solved theirs skill downsides, gilgas got a shield with Rhada, it would be cool to have a element set dedicated to boosting ultima. It is clearly desirable and could be a bridge between the past ultima and a new ultima

[open echo]

or add more here robe like stuff, high mag armor with 0 defense, the classical cristal cannon that is asociated to mages

remember that here robe give more damage ( and make doing even more damage faster) that bulkward

but it cames at the cost of survivality

[fast shore]

Not true unless you are a very high AL. 20% damage increase is better than stats with the way the skill damage is calculated

Personally it could be interesting to have mages get some gear synergy love. As he other classes have access to passives on armor with heratics still on hold

[open echo]

i tryed with my char, AL23 both godforged bulkward and here robe and here robe was doing more damage to the training cactus

[fast shore]

AL 23 is still a high AL lol. Most people in the game don’t make it that far 😃

[next canopy]

1. Celestial

2. Physical

3. Elementless

4. Earth

5. Fire

6. Lightening

7. Arcane

8. Water

9. Holy

10. Dark

11. Dragon

Is this all of the damage sources (in the game)?

If so, Ultima currently uses 7 of those 10 sources. I broke them into "like group" which is subjective.

If we're ok with Ultima already not having celestial, physical and elementless. An expected and possible elegant nerf could peeling back further layers on the Ultima onion. Lose holy dark and dragon (or just holy and dark etc?)? That's gonna fix most of the current issues with "too many boosts" it'll be a hard nerf to exploiting weakness bonus damage as well. We would lose dragon blight, but perhaps it's time there's a Fey dragon 3 turn nuke?

It's probably a bad idea, but I was already thinking of a similar thing to what Zahar said and I figured I'd post here for some thoughts

[open echo]

only 8, no physical neither elementless

[tulip sierra]

I think the 1/8 is interesting enough. I’d love to see that in action. I think it could have a nice feel. And let’s odie continue his idea of buffing individual elements

[next canopy]

Agreed, thinking about what I wrote, I'd feel the worst about losing out on some weaknesses. The 1/8 is elegant and a number that can be tweaked easily.

[severe roost]

Celestial isn't an element at all. Non-elemental is obviously not really, but it is a damage type sure. The other 9 are elements yeah

Keeping highest bonus and getting reduced effects from the rest might be an option. So you can go full Achlys or full Bulwark, and do something else with the other slots, or you can do both without going full multiplier stacking

[fierce jay]

First off, I assume my idea has been discussed in the past, but I haven't ever seen this discussion. In my head, damage for any spell gets rolled based on your magic stat. That damage is then divided out by whatever element that spell deals (for example, quakestorm deals earth/lightning so the damage would get divided by two and then any relevant target elemental modifiers (resistance, immunities, weakness) would be applied to that element damage number. The resisted damage number would then be multiplied by each extra elemental modifier (bulwark, achly, etc) and added to the damage total. I don't know that I explained it very well, so I made a little spreadsheet to show what I mean. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Rzpb1ESAcxbYPvtjZY7Ch4p9G7rw2GhrqRIbMD2bMco/edit?usp=sharing

[oblique wadi]

cheers fellow Res. This seems to me the most reasonable approach. Ultima would be more about a sound amount of reliable damage that cannot be resisted easily and can be improved with quite some effort

[halcyon cape]

Godforged Master#1476 made a comparison between ultima on deity and ss3 on gilga. It's enlightning. Congratz it seems ultima / magic is more or less finished. Could we eventually get a refund on AL soon? Gilga seems to still be fun (for now).

And I'm serious, heretics and magic deitys just lost ultima (which now is pretty equivalent to fey unstables), prom hands (this one was necessary though) and even the holy damage celestial adorn.

[grave oriole]

Per the active discussions and evolving beta (you can check out #game-announcements for more), let's avoid the doom and gloom - it just isn't helpful as we figure this one out. Thanks!

[grave oriole]

this is the approach we'll be testing next, fyi

[tulip sierra]

How we feeling about ultima? I’m liking the damage. It’s less than before, but it seems fair to me given it’s so hard to lower it.

I would love to explore the 1/8 idea too. Seems brilliant.

It’s not too much. It can be tanked for turn 1. Amities still work on it, bummer…but it’s ok

[open echo]

about this, dragon elemental blights, what bonus will aply, +50% like themselves, +100% like weakness or +140% like ultima right now?

[halcyon cape]

Sorry, let me be more constructive then. I know this is beta and all but perhaps nerfs should be slower as needed instead of in a single patch and in magnitudes of 50-90% of power. The original nerf to prom hands was 50% that is too much. The proposed nerf to ultima not only descreases penetrance in pve for little to no reason but also decreases something like 70-90% from bullwark plus 10-20 achlys souls.

Yes ultima was good a year ago and this nerf will make it slighly worse than it was then but, keep in mind that all (most?) classes have gotten new synergies that make their skills better than a year ago. So essentially magic gets set back to a year ago (and magic chakram, celestial arrow and ara vesta - also nerfed apparently - are probably better options now for raiding altough requiring extra crit investment).

It's not the end of the world but it feels bad that magic's main spell is now much weaker than before when ascension levels require you to invest so much in just one class.

I understand that realm and beo needed buffs and you are giving them those buffs as it should be. But why is ultima getting such a strong nerf at the same time?

Finally I do think @warped otter idea for reducing the amount of boosts to omnimancy is much more reasonable and in line with the overall gameplay. I can understand the need to nerf ultima because it overperforms too much but given the level requirement, 2 turn spell, build requirement and (grasping at straws here) the name ULTIMA I think it should remain the strongest spell/skill in game even after the nerf. And going back to the previous example from Godforged Master, ultima being a 2 turn spell should deal considerably more damage than spike shield 3 (not 2x more, but because it's 2 turn it should give at least more than a 1turn ss3).

[minor pawn]

so with the proposed 1/8 scaling to elemental damage, you'd get 7.78% more ultima damage (with bulwark and 20 achlys souls) right? How would that compare to just stacking magic and crit without maluses from things like ashen pinions?

[warped otter]

i think it should be roughly the same if you equip superior ferocious eyes, thats at least +150 mag

then you can take out some ashen pinions from your armor so you get more mag

[fierce jay]

good question, I added a couple of lines. This sheet is open for editing so anyone could tweak and fiddle with it

[open echo]

I was testing before and tried different values, depending the blight bonus the damage difference was quite big ( but not so absurdly much as live right now)

[fast shore]

I think comparing ultima to other skills isn’t a good idea. Other skills are other skills (and have their own issues) I think ultima should exist, but have a downside that is manageable.

Fundamentally pointing to another skill and saying. “Look it hits cap and this skill is better so it should be better is some way” is a false comparison.

[open echo]

but this is the important part. if ultima nerf makes it come from 20 millions per hit to 6 millions per hit and the second one maintain his 5 million per hit ( for example) then the nerf has been succesfull; thats the idea about the nerf, make it better than almost everything ( or everything) but not so disproporciantely better

[fast shore]

I guess I don’t understand what you are saying here then. Do you think it would be successful if ultima dropped from 20->6 with 6 being 1.2x better then other options? Is that a successful nerf for you? Like at the end of the day you think that other options shouldn’t be as strong as ultima by some factor?

[halcyon cape]

Of course ultima should remain stronger than any other 1 turn skill... this should be obvious. It's a very late game skill/spell that requires 2 turns. 1 fully geared 1 turn ss3should not hit the cap better than a 2 turn ultima.

Furthermore since it requires 2 turns you should get an advantage vs 1 turn skills (but weakness multiplier is that advantage)

And lastly, reducing power from 20m to 6m is wrong. Don't know what else to say about it. A nerf should not be over 50% for anything that has been in the game for a considerable amount of time.

[grave oriole]

I wouldn't consider simplifying the proposed change as a "20m -> 6m" as a great way to look at this.

Unintended consequences happen in games - exploits, bad interactions, etc. The proposal is not that the spell receives correction, it's that a runaway interaction is corrected. it affects all omnimancy, and does not reflect a damage decrease of the spell

If developers are not able to correct issues due to an arbitrary 50% limit - we'd be seeing quite a few exploits in quite a few games remain problematic

[halcyon cape]

Was achlys souls and bullwark really unintended for ultima? Then what is the point of ara heretic having no damage cap?

50% isn't that arbitrary. It means cutting down an establish gameplay mechanic by a significant amount.

Since you are correcting beo and realm underpoweredness and rightfully so, I think it's unacessary to cut down ultima potential damage by such an amount.

And again, should ultima be stronger than other 1 turn skills? And on a side note, should fey unstables really take 3 turns instead of 2 if ultima indead gets this kind of nerf?

Because at the end what this means is that heretic and deity will probably stop using ultima in non weak raids, so what will the alternatives be?

[fast shore]

To me this is an indicator that a skill is over performing. If a chance to that skill occurs and people don’t see an alternative, there is an over performing skill

But I’m just a person on the internet 😂

[grave oriole]

Was achlys souls and bullwark really unintended for ultima?

the main intention was to give the option to refresh any elemental skill in the game (and elemental weapons) with some fresher damage output. however, that doesn't mean it wasn't intended to work with ultima.

now, ultima's ability to stack those effects so freely, to inflate damage so much, was not intended. it's currently the largest piece of damage inflation in the game - i don't think that is news to any endgame player

50% isn't that arbitrary. It means cutting down an establish gameplay mechanic by a significant amount.

the appropriate number in any correction should be determined by the severity of the problem. unless there is some mathematical backing to this 50% suggestion, I would consider it arbitrary

Since you are correcting beo and realm underpoweredness and rightfully so, I think it's unacessary to cut down ultima potential damage by such an amount.

they are being brought up to baseline, yes. are you suggesting outliers should not be brought down to baseline? they should be intentionally left above the rest? That doesn't sound like a good approach to game balance

Because at the end what this means is that heretic and deity will probably stop using ultima in non weak raids, so what will the alternatives be?

what were raids cut down with this time last year? so many options out there

and even with the current adjustment, ultima is still the most powerful player spell in the game. ultima was used before the interactions were introduced

[thin badger]

based odie

[grave oriole]

i promised i wouldn't debate. oops 😅

have a great day all

[thin badger]

absolute gigachad

[halcyon cape]

Fair enough. We will see if ultima is still used besides endless and innate weak raids after the nerf.

Guess it's time to break celestial arrow and ara vesta. @Zipper96 we're counting on you.

Have a nice day everyone

[warped otter]

debates are healthy, so we can understand eachother

i might have been wrong about the nerf (except the piercing in endless 🍅 )

it's not that bad compared to other spells

but if you still want to try my other idea that allows ultima to keep some element boosts, then the M2 should probably go back to 1

(and M1 a little boost to 3.5? )

[thin badger]

cool stats, this probably means ultima will now be used mainly to exploit elemental weakness, and not all the time right?

[warped otter]

that + a.morri i think, she can get quite resistant to the other spells

[thin badger]

that looks like an objective w for game balance

hope you guys dont find it too damaging lol

[warped otter]

but when i look at that pic, celestial arrow really sucks xD

higher M1 than ultima, boosted by 10 souls, yet still lower damage

[thin badger]

yeah that skill looks pretty weird

deals holy dmg right?

[open echo]

no, the second loadout it has no achlys

[halcyon cape]

Sure in a vacuum, ultima is now balanced against other magic. Let's see how that will affect heretic and deity raiding ability compared to other classes that have been buffed partly because they were less effective at raiding compare to ultima.

And by balanced I mean a 2 turn spell is equal to 1 turn magic chakram.

Also ara vesta nerf as well...

[deft lava]

Celestial Arrow is a fun debuff ability

But starstruck could use some help lol

[lunar comet]

You are objectively correct , and numbers back it up. There is only one answer for the revenge fixation for it being over the top for 2-3 months. The nerf is significantly bigger than the problem its trying/pretending to solve. The AL reassess needs to come now and hopefully pride doesn't get in way of the right thing.

[fast shore]

Why do you think a change in skills (across the game) should force a AL overhaul? Didn’t you reap the rewards of your ALs already?

[grave oriole]

Let's try to keep suggestions of revenge/pride/other nonsense out of something we're trying to be productive about. Thank you 🙂

[lunar comet]

Reap rewards? What rewards is he reaping? The class is fundamentally changed to different one than the class time and resource put into already. It's no wonder he is upset. He wants to be able to move the time , maybe money, he spent to another class. We're trying to be productive about this here and dealing with the fallout.

[grave oriole]

As we've said a few times - Ascension will be handled at a later date. We'll work with players directly if they want to have a dialog about their investment in the game, including the player you are speaking for.

For now, we wouldn't consider fixing the damage inflation issue with Omnimancy as grounds for ascension reversal - there is still plenty of damage available.

Let's try to keep the conversation on topic (finding the best adjustment for Ultima).

[lunar comet]

Good to hear that, how do players get in touch about that

[grave oriole]

That can be answered at a later date when we have a final plan for ascension/potential reversal/etc

[lunar comet]

Hmm... Ok... we'll I guess you're right, beta testing isnt done yet. There might still be damage left once it comes out for general play.

[fast shore]

What I was saying here is do you think there is a return you will have for each AL? And do you think they have gotten that return? To me seeing it as a system that gives forever or is directly tied to the meta will cause a lot of heart ache.

If you think the nerf to Ultima is not worth playing an entire class, putting forward actionable steps to make the skill better (or to try something to make it better) is more helpful.

[lunar comet]

Agree on actionable steps. Usually this is what you'd want/ expect in a ganingcommunity. Seen it happen that way in other games too.

About ascension levels though, they aren't a temporary thing. Nothing about them is, so suggesting they are suddenly would be a much, much bigger problem...

[fast shore]

I’m not saying they are temporary. You are taking about how you want your ALs refunded. And so you seem to be the one who wanted them to be temporary.

[idle arch]

any pve situation where ultima is best sometimes but not all the time should be good. being strong against the elementally weak raids/enemies, and then having a dragonblighting pet as a damage option seems good(?).

and then separately making sure the pvp piercing isn't too out of control such that res matters (like... BP). but high-piercing is still very relevant for pve like deep endless and late in raids (to the extent that raids don't just get 1shot from full HP).

looking forward to testing the proposal where ultima scales somewhat from elemental gear.

[lunar comet]

Oh Isee. Guess we agree then. 🤭 Moved, in quivalence, since his class has been fundamentally chamged. Its the right and decent thing to do, that maintains respect for the games entire player base.

[crude rampart]

Tried yesterday, my Deity has 60k more ward than gilga but SS still does much less on deity, don't remember specific numbers

[errant timber]

other thread had penalty at 50% mentioned by someone that was doing testing

[grave oriole]

Patch notes in ⁠game-announcements have been updated.

Omnimancy can now only have a fraction of damage increased (relative to the # of elements in play) via geared elemental boosters. In this iteration of the patch, it is the only change to Ultima in PvE. In PvP, the damage output has been decreased a little further to make up for no penetration change

[mystic niche]

you're up again zahar, beta vs. live comparisons 🙂 let's see that 1/8, 2/8, 3/8, 4/8, etc. in action

also with this change, every mage is now subject to the imperial system muahahaha

i propose that from here on out we call souls of achlys the "quarter pounder"

[open echo]

Bulkward 2.5%, 8 achlys 4%, 1 handed celestial holy weapon 7.5% ( all of them total damage increase)

[last mica]

I think bulwark falls pretty short, maybe 5% would be better, because it is a single bonus, not like souls that can be doomstacked hehe.

[grave oriole]

5% with Ultima would need +40% on Bulwark itself. That'd be a little much with single dragon skills

[last mica]

That's true. Would be really high with late skills like viperseals/strikes and dragon alignment in endless.

[dense tapir]

Lol, that's perfect