General thoughts and feelings about the entirety of the balance patch

[lavish trellis]

This post is ment to reflect on the entire patchnotes and the general changes they may bring to us. I would like ya'll to talk about the pros and cons, the shift in the tone of what game orna is and the possible consequences or benefits it may bring.

From my point its pretty clear: The balance patch itself is devestating. Whilst devestating is a severe understatement of what the true potential this has for the future of orna is. Since i dont want to write two and a half essays, i prefer to make it short:

• The new changes to adornments slow down our progress severely, straight up. High ascension players will not feel it much, but everyone lower will see a very severe impact on their speed of progress. Therefore the rich get richer easier and the low struggle to catch up.
• Nobody has 24 hours a day to play orna. Whilst high ascension players will still steamroll, lower players will progress severely slower. This will result in a lot of new prople not even trying to compete anymore and long players to be frustrated and quit.
• Possible ascension caps will ruin the competitive nature of the game and are a direct punch tho those who spent thousands of hours to grind, so they become what they are.

TLDR; Mid and Low Players will suffer from the changes, high players wont feel anything and destroying the endless power scaling not only removes a core identity of orna but is also not a solution since it caps the competitive nature of orna and destroys its spirit.

[cerulean wagon]

ascension isnt a core identity of orna

at all

also i dont see how decreasing powercreep is "slowing down progress" lol

[tawny monolith]

Taking damage out of the game is a healthy change. Doing millions of damage per turn should not be the players powerlevel if we compare it to current content.

[olive void]

Orna's been out for over 4 years, and the nerfs to the augments (which are the only place where a significant amount of power has been nerfed) were needed. Even post nerf, the augments are still good enough to outvalue morrigan gear. Which is to say: Towers added a huge, unprecedented amount of power, and these nerfs tone that amount of power back.
We haven't gone back to the dark ages. We're still living in what is likely the strongest player power point in orna's history

[lavish trellis]

Decreasing our damage by nearly half i would say is a slowdown.

[lavish trellis]

I agree to disagree. Clearspeed is something that should not be taken and additionally Monsters beeing buffed. This makes low end players struggling harder and stronger players not feeling anything.

[cerulean wagon]

well the damage got increased a ton with the introduction of these adorns, which wasnt intented

[lavish trellis]

I agree that nerfs were needed, i disagree that the nerfs needed to be shredders.

[cerulean wagon]

so they are nerfing it and its pretty justified considering how overtuned they were

[tawny monolith]

bloating HP pools is not a direction that makes the game more fun

[lavish trellis]

I agree that a nerf is needed, but not this severely.

[torn pollen]

to be honest, i'm only sad that i worked whole month to get my Cele + Prom, because that would've give like a ton of dmg boost, now it's still a boost but i could've stayed where i was and get the class instead, oh well, you win you lose some times

[cerulean wagon]

it wasnt even that severe, celestial weapons are still by far the strongest, outperforming regular weapons in pretty much everything

and you could 100% do all content with regular weapons

[lavish trellis]

I never said you cant, i sole talk about clear speed.

[lavish trellis]

Well, 2H celestials are still on the low end

[cerulean wagon]

if you are talking tower clear speed, i agree they take too long

and yeah 2h celestials could get some more love

[lavish trellis]

Mostly raid clear speed

[torn pollen]

i would rather them tackling that this patch :v

[cerulean wagon]

raid clear speed is at an all time high

noone struggles with raid clear speed honestly

and thats coming from a summoner

[torn pollen]

maybe Kely wants to beat 1000 summoned boss within a day 😛

[lavish trellis]

I dont, thank you.

[cerulean wagon]

what would you consider fast raiding

[lavish trellis]

Amorri in 5 Minutes is fast raiding

[tawny monolith]

idk, I dont want raids to be "fight for 40 seconds and be done with it"

we need SOME content thats a challenge

and screaming for more speed in everything is not it

[cerulean wagon]

people with good gear could do amorri even faster prior to celestia weapons

[torn pollen]

they could add a "AL Increase" where dungeons/raids/bosses stats increase depending on your AL, making them harder but with better rewards... maybe... idk... endgame gap is way too... far i guess... from the most recent 225, to the toppest player

[cerulean wagon]

cause i dont see this "slowing down" as a real issue honestly unless raids take like 10 minutes or something im fine

no need for everything to go down in 2 hits

[lavish trellis]

but then create new content or adjust difficulty but also INCREASE rewards.

[tawny monolith]

deal

plenty of games have hard content with guaranteed rewards

[lavish trellis]

if we lose 50% clearspeed, give us 50% more rewards.

[tawny monolith]

or a token system that you can trade in for a reward of your choice

[lavish trellis]

everything just gets harder for no reason and the strong will not feel it, just the meek and small will pay for it.

[tawny monolith]

i am not talking about 120 seconds instead of 60 seconds

[lavish trellis]

thats not in the spirit of orna tho

[tawny monolith]

i am talking about "the boss can actually fight back and kick your shit in if you just button mash"

[lavish trellis]

that would be a welcoming change and not artificial difficulty

[tawny monolith]

spirit of orna is a mighty phrase, is it in the spirit of orna to kill amorri in 30 seconds

[lavish trellis]

the spirit of orna is to always trive for more and more power, become stronger and stronger and dominate your world.

[tawny monolith]

thats different from "guaranteed drops are against the spirit of orna"

[lavish trellis]

it would make the feeling of getting the ornate you want meaninglöess which is a core experience

[tawny monolith]

you can become stronger and see your numbers grow from a non button mash fight that guarantees a drop of some kind

celestial weapons did just that

and then added adorns which can be ornate

those are not mutual exclusive from each other

[lavish trellis]

this is true, tho

but i dont know what this still has to do with the thoughts and opinions about the balance patch

[tawny monolith]

we talked about reducing player power as a result of this patch

[lavish trellis]

thats the thing i dislike about the nerfs nerfs nerfs, severely less clear speed for the same rewards.

[tawny monolith]

and that just bloating damage numbers and hp bars are not the solution

which this patch addresses

[lavish trellis]

so it reduces our speed without anything to make up for it.
basically just a punch to the face, do i get this right?

[tawny monolith]

go back 3 months in time

[lavish trellis]

im not willing to spend 10 hours for what i did 6 before, just to get less rewards.

[tawny monolith]

you didnt have this power

and you did just fine

you still have MORE power than at that time

and you will STILL be fine

[lavish trellis]

this is 100% correct, but we got it thrown at us fully knowing it will be broken after testing but it STILL got through.
And now we get it taken from us when we adjusted to it.

This is a severe flaw of development.

[primal niche]

Many high ascension players already lived through 30 minute morrigan raids, no wayvessels so all dungeons were irl drives, and floor 100 or 150 endless being considered really good. Also orns were 10x harder to come by.

Basically -- mid and low players aren't even aware of how good they have it 😅 Also changes that were made 2 months ago with towers and which are now being changed back were a blink of an eye in the whole life of the game. It's about as fast as NF can work, having just added the content and now giving it a thorough second pass.

[lavish trellis]

this... does not really have anything to do with the patch. Yes, it is better then it was, and... what does that change about it? We get more and spend more.
Now we lost efficiency without something to maske up for it while we still have to spend the same amount.

[primal niche]

To expect otherwise is to expect NF to make no mistakes ever, which is unreasonable.

You were under the false impression that NF's first stab at implementation numbers was the absolutely correct one. 🤷‍♂️

[lavish trellis]

i expected to not be happy about the patch.
I did not expect its so bad i cry on my birthday^^"

[lavish trellis]

i was under false impression that giving us a beta, people telling them its too op, they still patching it in & then reverting it when were used it is a decision northren forge knows better.

My fault in this cause would be to assume that faults like this that killed many, many games, would not happen. Not in this severety.

[sour frost]

You probably put high expectations on the wrong stuff then

[lavish trellis]

But again. Im just one person who has an impression of Orna, who found comfort in it for over 3 years and who loves the game so much he plays it daily and got my ENTIRE friends to play it too. Just cause i love it to death.

maybe what i thought of the game is not reality which could very well be. Maybe i expected a different design philosophy and missread the northren monthlys. Maybe i just... did not want to see that im alone in my thoughts.

[primal niche]

wait you've played for 3 years -- how in the world did you see the towers patch and think "yeah okay, more than doubling player damage in a single patch is probably just fine and totally intended" 😅

[lavish trellis]

i didnt, everyone was saying "this is too much"

but they still patched it in

now they take it away months later when we got used to it ;)

[sour frost]

The fact that they back-pedaled this fast with the augments and taking a closer look on some of the older mechanics is quite nice imo
Sets a precedent where stuff's less likely to go wrong/broken when new stuff inevitably gets added in

[lavish trellis]

Do you see what is wrong with that?

[primal niche]

I never got used to it. Shit's OP

kinda obviously busted and worth fixing ASAP.
ASAP being apparently 2 months

[lavish trellis]

well maybe i just need to accept meele is bad and i do mage but i refuse to go mage xD

[lavish trellis]

asap would be adjusting one adornment in beta before release, we had weeks.

to not even cause this situation after we gave our feedback.

my design fault with this patch is that we said no, and it still was pushed.

[primal niche]

I mean... I agree. But it happened. It's better for the game to return to a more fixed state than to just accept it as broken.

[lavish trellis]

its not that i think this patch is bad. Its the circumstances around this patch that make it devestating...

[lavish trellis]

we lose efficiency - thats fine.
Give us back something. :)
Like, a bit more gold and orns from raids.

Dont make gauntlets harder, the only people who profit from it are high players in getting a higher gap between them and the low players.

[primal niche]

The alternative to reducing player power would be to go and increase enemy power and non-celestial gear power. That process would take many many more months or years, given that it took 2 months just to undo some of the celestial power.

[tough ginkgo]

I think the crux of it is that it feels less like a tweaking and more of a punitive measure to some classes

[tawny monolith]

you are misjudging the average player. I don't think many people even bought a celestial weapon yet

The best time to balance it was 3 months ago, the second best chance is now.

[lavish trellis]

this is exactly what i mean.

[primal niche]

if class balance is punitive to classes on the high end, then what is being a worse class for a year+ called? 🤔

[lavish trellis]

beeing punished by game design lol

maybe if i wouldnt rely on crit AND am a 2H user, maybe i wouldnt be sad that my damage got completely cooked

but now i invested 160k shards in a 2H scythe in the hopes they fix stuff but they just made it even worse ^~^

thats what it is to be punished by a game for beeing creative :)

[primal niche]

The fear is a powercreep ratchet.

The ratchet looks like:

• Class A gets buffed, is accidentally too strong
• Class A & B acknowledges the buff was too much
• Time passes
• Class B says it's underperforming, should be as strong as A
• Class B gets buffed, is accidentally too strong...

[tawny monolith]

your damage got cooked compared to now, your damage compared to the other 4 years of the game is at an all time high

[lavish trellis]

thats happening.
Summoner
Beowulf

[primal niche]

it's the engine that drives power creep. 🤷‍♂️ at some point gotta say "we all agreed things were buffed too much, now it's time to cut the power down"

[tawny monolith]

Beo is not TOO strong

[sour frost]

Man, and here I am wishing that Melee stuff becomes accessible for summoners

[tawny monolith]

we still cant compete with heretics or deity or gila

[lavish trellis]

this is a very weird statement since yes, back then we didnt have content that could need this amount of power. This statement doesnt further this conversation. By this standard, we should not complain or tell concerns for the future cause its better then it was years ago.

[lavish trellis]

auriga has warrior gear

[tawny monolith]

you still dont have content that needs this kind of damage lmao

[tough ginkgo]

It's more punitive to people on the low-to-mid end of a tier, the ones who rely more on their augments to drive their player power because they don't have the ALs to pad their stats.

As you said earlier, you have no trouble putting out big numbers pre-celestials, but people just entering the higher tiers do.

[tawny monolith]

maybe 1 shotting everything in boost gear is NOT what the game should look like

[sour frost]

Warrior gears apparently function differently from Melee gears

[primal niche]

in terms of player power vs. pve, players have basically only ever gotten stronger and pve has barely gotten harder.

[lavish trellis]

laughs in heretic

[primal niche]

pve getting a power boost in this patch is very welcome.
also stuff like avidity on immortal lord (😈)

[sour frost]

I think anything with Realm's Light got changed into Avidity?

[lavish trellis]

enemys becoming stronger for no benefit like more loot is not a good game design decision.

[primal niche]

I'm fine with harder pve -- if NF is able to keep up with the power they keep giving players. Historically they haven't though, not by a long shot.

[tawny monolith]

there need to be a intended level of player power in the game, an imaginary line that NF draws. Classes above the line need to get chopped down back to the line. Those below that line should get a boost up to it

this is happening now

[sour frost]

But man, as if Im. Lord wasn't a nightmare before

[tawny monolith]

RS and Beo and Summ got closer to the line

prom hands got chopped

[lavish trellis]

then theres no point in playing a competitive game^^"
We have HoA for the casual playerbase

[tough ginkgo]

They didn't chop the hands, they took the whole arm

At least from my 2h perspective

[lavish trellis]

Maybe its just time to accept things stopped beeing good and i should follow in the footsteps of many great players and end my journey with Orna.

[sour frost]

I assume you main PvP? Hence why you think it's competitive?

[tawny monolith]

there is a point in playing those games, its called imperfect balance, the idea that all classes or skills or what ever reach a certain power budget, but through different means, the tank being tanky, the healer being healy, the melee dps doing more dps than the range but the range being safer

[lavish trellis]

no, i think PvP in games is a pest. But not doing PvP means you should play HoA cause then you have a better experience

taking territorys from my obnoxious neighbour is the best feeling in the world

[sour frost]

Not really much competition (if at all) in that case, then

[lavish trellis]

kingdom wars & territorys

territorys are the main reason i play orna

[sour frost]

That's PvP

[lavish trellis]

but yeah maybe its just time to quit and move on

the direction orna is taking is pure frustration and if i feel ashamed instead of inspired maybe its not mentally healthy for me to continue :)

Or maybe im just overreacting and im disappointed that my issues do not get adressed since i started playing.

Maybe tomorrow is another day.

I remember feeling like this when the hybrid amity got nerfed and i got over it too.

[tawny monolith]

if losing some damage in a setting that is OVERLOADED on player damage makes you quit, idk dude

[lavish trellis]

Generally... Stop releasing stuff overpowered if people say no and then change it anyway months later

[tawny monolith]

we have no content that needs current level of player power

[lavish trellis]

Thats not my issue

[lavish trellis]

^

[tawny monolith]

The best time to balance it was 3 months ago, the second best time is now.

^

[lavish trellis]

I know. But this happened a few times now. And i dont see a learning curve.

[sour frost]

That's what balancing is for; they need to gauge reactions/usage outside just this discord server

[tawny monolith]

This happens in EVERY game

i've seen patches rolled back in league

broken shit released in dota

guns disabled in CSGO

[sour frost]

It's the norm for every MMO worth their salt, really

[tawny monolith]

tournaments ruined in Starcraft

[lavish trellis]

League does unbalance by design, its intended.

[tawny monolith]

if billion dollar companies do mistakes

[primal niche]

I wish for NF to be perfect in every way and only release perfect things.
And then with my other two wishes I wish for unlimited money and a larger cockatrice. 👌

[tawny monolith]

what is a 4? 5? man team gonna do

[lavish trellis]

Riot does not do a mistake, they do it on purpose. Create a common enemy so people feel like you fix things.

[sour frost]

It's more of how it shifts back and forth due to the nature of the game, to prevent stagnation

[tawny monolith]

yes riot will ruin an entire worlds patch

by reworking a class line

[lavish trellis]

I just wish to learn from a mistake ^`^

[wraith hare]

There's no way a small company with a small sample size of testers could find all the faults and imbalances in the game right away. Everything became apparent after hundreds of us played for a while and found the broken stuff.

[sour frost]

Can't you just buy a larger cockatrice and not waste the other wish?

[tawny monolith]

their biggest event of the entire year thrown into the dirt due to some champs being so busted they must be banned was surely done on purpose

thats why it never happened again

5G will also corrupt your kids

people make mistakes, NF doesnt have the quality control a billion dollar company has

and even those make mistakes

[sour frost]

Wait, back-up, the team behind this game's that few?

[vale knoll]

It was just Odie for the first 2 years

[sour frost]

Holy sheez

That's actually really impressive then

[wraith hare]

Very

[tawny monolith]

thats just to put "OMG WHY NO BALANCE" in context

[sour frost]

I thought they number more or less around 10

[tawny monolith]

they also need to develop new content as well

[lavish trellis]

it is!

Orna is an extremely impressive passion project

[wraith hare]

Even ten would be pretty darn small, especially if half of them are for art, assets, community management -- and not even part of balance stuff.

[lavish trellis]

i dont know why im having so much issues, maybe my raid loadout just sucks

[sour frost]

Yeah, it definitely puts into perspective the pace the game's taking much more clearly now

[tawny monolith]

again, the overperformers need to be cut down otherwise it will spiral out of control.
This needs to happen before other stuff gets set on its level

you will survive that change

[lavish trellis]

i just hope they reevaluate if dungeons need to be made harder with no added loot

[tawny monolith]

if that weapon doesnt do it anymore, try different augments

maybe you enjoy them more

if not, slot the old ones back in

Besides the weapon talk:
What are your thoughts on celestials staying without damage immunities or resistances?

besides deity and heretic ofc

[lavish trellis]

as a deity player im biased so i cant talk about that

[vale knoll]

Mind you, I am not an employee of Northern Forge, but I believe the following to be a half-decent underrepresented explanation of everyone on the team's roles:

Dangy handles the Community
Covyn handles the Pixels
Odie handles the Ideas
Havel handles the Code
Purrly handles the Media
Flax handles the Money

[tawny monolith]

i miss dragon immunity very much 😟

[sour frost]

It's, uhhh, bearable on GSA. Not so much on Hydrus though but at least, Panaceas exist

[vale knoll]

They all do much more than that, but yeah, its a team of 6.

[sour frost]

Dangggg

[sour frost]

Ngl, only learned about this now and just no words; impressive's an understatement

[lavish trellis]

im still baffled that 6 people can do this much x.x

[vale knoll]

There's also the non-employees that volunteer to help.

• Community Translators, to make the game more accessible
• Embassadors, to help out those who don't speak English in the Discord
• Moderators, to keep the peace in the Discord
• Scholars, to help set the tone of the Discord and to spread game knowledge to everyone

[lavish trellis]

reminds me that i probably should apply for the german translation theme. Im an author and the google translater translations make me pretty sad knowing how amazing the german language can be, especially for medieval language

[vale knoll]

You'll likely want to talk with the German embassador then.

[toxic elbow]

no, prom hand weapons perform almost the same as chimera weapons ( 1200 atk/mag 60% crit damage vs 50% damage with DoT and 32% vs 25% crit rate)

[lavish trellis]

very likely ^^

[cerulean wagon]

But you can get a zerk on top of the celestial weapon and can't get the crit buff with the chimera weapon

[tawny monolith]

thats great, having options is king

[cerulean wagon]

So it's just another layer of buffs

[toxic elbow]

but if you use the chimera staff you are not using other options, expecialy in raids

IMO, at least from a wizard PoV the nerf to prom hand has been so big that is almost useless in all parts of the game i could try to use it

yes, crit damage was too big, but nerfing so much crit rate is excesive, at least from my pov

[tawny monolith]

crit was viable before that weapon

"only 30% crit and crit damage (and atk for those that care)" would be a crazy statement half a year ago

and thats ignoring competetive base stats

and availability

and you can customize it for your needs with stuff like pet action rate if needed

[wraith hare]

I honestly wouldn't have minded if crit bonus damage was removed entirely but the crit chance was touched more gently, if at all. Crits already got into the ludicrous damage territory, especially with stuff like ultima.

[silver mantle]

At 6% crit its still very good. The crit damage bonus is the real reason you are using it and now it requires a little investment in gear/adorn choice outside of cast wyrm, go brrrrr

The original augment was comically broken

Don't get me wrong, I loved it, but I love broken things lol

[wraith hare]

It's good, but with 5 adorn slots it feels more like a side grade to an a.kala. Feels kinda meh saving up for the 150,000 to spend on something that doesn't feel any different from what I already have like 10 of XP

[silver mantle]

The celestial weapons are supposed to be sidegrades to unlock different playstyles so it sounds like their objective is being achieved

[toxic elbow]

the thing is, nerfing from better than AF weapon to chimera sidegrade is a lot xD

[silver mantle]

I don't think thats an apt comparison

[uncut pasture]

Beo did not get super powerful this patch. Our damage hasn't really changed. We finally got defensive buffs but we need to redline for them.

[wraith hare]

I agree with you I just think one side of the nerf needed to be more harsh, and the other side or the nerf was too harsh

[silver mantle]

But its important to understand they were never supposed to compete with AF weapons

Mages might feel this Nerf a little harder than melee, but mages already can make crit outperform melee significantly and as long as the nerf allows the augment useable for melee builds then I think its mission accomplished

[uncut pasture]

Has anyone gotten mirrored and had a chance to see if achlys adorns still buff Ultima?

[primal niche]

I don't really see how the celestial augment nerf affects mages more than melee. Both feel equally affected here.

[tall ingot]

Can everyone checks the Vestas and ultima's downgrades on PVP on the current beta?

Not sure if I can share a table I've done about it hahah

[primal niche]

unless you mean the sum of nerfs

[tall ingot]

Just a nerf spell's table to help ppl walk through all the changes 🙂

[atomic cedar]

That The Old Gods buff is new right? I fell like giving some buffs for Pre-Deity classes is pretty good, since most people just use another class then buys deity when they think it's good

Also that mystic feather too damn

Now I see the Jack-of-all-trades

[cerulean wagon]

It had mystic feather before, the bestial bond is new though

But bestial bonds seem lackluster currently

[safe burrow]

class killer..?

how's it idiotic? was there some huge mechanical change, or are you speaking about just Ultima

[toxic elbow]

why? the more i think about all the nerf, the more inclined im to thing that they where needed. the worst part is tower, yes, but other parts arr not so afected and now some celestial combinations makes more sense than promhands everywhere

[safe burrow]

with Heretic being as strong as it was previously I don't see how the class would be dead. some of the absurdly high damage from eg. ultima, promhands got cut

but most classes have gone by without needing those things, so surely the game's playable at that power level

[toxic elbow]

ultima for heretic is only an achlys nerf, period

change bulkward for hererobe, the damage output is the same

[safe burrow]

there were ~zero nerfs targetting Heretic specifically

[charred osprey]

Ultima has long been considered too much by the studio and community alike - aiming for better balance should be ok.

[safe burrow]

hmm. have you given the beta changes a whirl? as in, is that where this is coming from

anything that isn't Ultima or AV has not been nerfed, and Heretic's got more to its kit than those two things

and those two things are still good

[charred osprey]

In testing this is not overkill - would definitely encourage some proper testing and informed write ups of alternate options if you feel strongly. Reactionary posts without good alternate options based on testing won't do a lot for us here, and will encourage back and fourth discussion that won't progress

Encouraging you to provide some detailed insight and options here, not telling you to be quiet 🙂

[safe burrow]

some worthwhile post-patch magic options would be AV, Magic Chakram, Fey Unstables and (still) Ultima

there's also supposedly some skill additions en route, so all in all, things seem okay

[rose inlet]

Wait to do that. They might give more returns for deascending soon.

[toxic elbow]

you forget ( and is what is inclining me to take this changes as worthwhile) holy arrow and elemental seals 3

[safe burrow]

those are okay as well, but not as high damage as the ones i'd mentioned

[toxic elbow]

holy arrow now has a combined +104% damage, this without counting it can crit

[safe burrow]

..?

[toxic elbow]

adorn+achlys

[safe burrow]

it's always had that

[toxic elbow]

but achlys now is almost only for arrow+seal/strike, not so much ultima sploit

[tawny monolith]

Heretic is still the best class in the game my dude. Your lmao 1 shot button now may require 2 button presses. This effects all classes that used Ultima. Same for prom hands, it also effects all classes that used it.

[cerulean wagon]

Well one class has to be the strongest at any given moment

If you don't think it's heretic rn, which one is ig

Cause I'm pretty certain it's heretic rn

Well first of all heretic isn't torn down, many players will still use it. And the ascension system is deliberately made so you can split your focus on more than one class

It's not a just pick one system

You putting your AL means you presumably like it?

[olive void]

The point of the balance patch isn't to destroy a class - it is to balance it.
If you are unhappy with the changes, voice your opinion on how you would balance it, rather then ask for an exit strategy.
This is the most feedback-intensive beta we've ever had. The team is listening

[cerulean wagon]

The point of ascension levels is to commit permanent power to a class you choose

Why would you be able to move it

Heretic was overperforming and all heretic players knew they were on the top

Now they are more inline with the other classes

[olive void]

However, there will be no refunds for class changing.
Firstly, because the point of the patch is to make classes equal, not to make any one class bad.
Secondly, because ascensions are getting reworked in the near-ish future anyhow.

[cerulean wagon]

Wait how is heretic changed completely lol?

The crit nerf literally affects everyone in the game, not only heretic and Ultima nerf was extremely justified

[olive void]

I don't speak for NF, but I'm going to be realistic. The chances you are to get an AL refund or moving AL are basically null. Put all your efforts of asking for that movement into suggesting how else to balance heretic without "destroying" it

Heretic is much more than ultima, there are other spells

[cerulean wagon]

Heretic was still top tier before towers, and Ultima was the strongest spell in the entire game

[frosty raven]

@cyan furnace Remember, the crux of the Ultima change is removing the gear interactions introduced in the Amity patch. For the most part, this will bring Ultima back to where it was 1 year ago. Ultima was still very relevant 1 year ago

[cerulean wagon]

Do you feel like heretic is unplayable rn or are you just annoyed it's not as op as it was before

[frosty raven]

This change, in no way, kills the class - it was very much alive 1 year ago

[cerulean wagon]

I mean we are literally speaking facts only, no?

Sure you are entitled to your opinion but from an objective view it's good for the game

Also, I'm not getting mad dw

[frosty raven]

I'm not sure anyone is getting mad - the community is just testing the assertion that the Ultima change kills Heretic.

Let's break it down to one question: was Ultima/Heretic viable one year ago?

[cerulean wagon]

Well honestly how I see is that if you liked heretic for the big nuke mage fantasy that's not gone, your time wouldn't be respected only if you ascended heretic specifically because you liked that it was broken and overperforming

[charred osprey]

Taking a breather can be healthy if it feels like the conversation is a bit much 🙂

I don't read any anger or aggression here, might be a misread due to passion attached to the topic at hand. Have a spell and come back to it with collected thoughts perhaps! 🙂

Let's remember to be kind to each other, please

Ignoring the deleted post of yours - mine was a reminder to all and anyone reading.
We can very much remember to be kind to each other.

If things are getting heated for anyone, I encourage them to take a step away and come back later when feeling more productive. Let's remember rule 2 along the way 😉

We value all your feedback, thank you.

[wraith hare]

Since you guys feels so strongly and you have people's attention, what would you change or add to make the class feel better? Crit (primarily and overall strength of prom hands) and ultima was unquestionably too powerful. Maybe suggest an other way to make the class shine?

[soft bison]

unpopular opinion: crit should be the domain of thief class, while double cast chance for mage class

in a way, unique favour for both class

[olive void]

Doublecast is a spec domain, not really the thing about all mages.
If there was a crit spec though, I'd be all ears

[primal niche]

To which new class? If the gameplay is big damage magic spells, that's still Heretic even after these changes.

[soft bison]

well.. double cast only work with spell

skill cant double cast

[wraith hare]

For example, heretic (and a little bit of the new heretic celestial classes) kinda feel railroaded into crit. The power difference between crit and non crit on heretic feels like fairly wide gap. I would love to see more non crit options that are strong enough to keep up with other builds. Some interesting resource sustain options (like gilgas ward regen, recharge, etc) might be nice to see on mages -- maybe mana regen options so you can find a good juggling point between mana cost and regen.

[sour frost]

Crit build with a summoner...?

[cyan furnace]

No lol

[sour frost]

[cyan furnace]

Realmshifter only for critical

[olive void]

So it just sounds to me that you just want to experiment with new classes?

[cyan furnace]

Heretic has critical hit in its description even, and a bonus built in. It's supposed to be a critical hit class. Now it isn't, and I think the design changes are so much that I should be able to move ascension out. That's all

[primal niche]

It still is a critical hit class.

[cyan furnace]

No,.can't keep up as one

And dies a lot easier

[sour frost]

Can't keep up with what though? Isn't it at the top?

[cerulean wagon]

Fey unstables were heretics main thing before the Ultima incident

[primal niche]

I'm trying to figure out how realmshifter is a crit class but heretic isn't.

[olive void]

They were hit equally as hard by the nerf

[cerulean wagon]

Arguably heretic was hit harder because Ultima got nerfed

[olive void]

Yes, Ultima got nerfed too, but that is not a nerf to crit

[cerulean wagon]

But fey unstables are untouched

[olive void]

it's a nerf to ultima. Fey Unstables are still very strong - and they can still benefit from elemental bonuses like alignments and amities, too

[cerulean wagon]

And they should honestly be the heaviest hitting spell in the game still

[soft bison]

My thoughts on heretic ara skill:

• ara vesta 2 nerf is well warranted
• but ara vesta 1, 3, 4 and vestaga feels like inferior version of vesta 2 and there are no reason to use anything else over 2

my suggestion is to make the rest sidegrade to vesta 2?

Take for example, ara vesta 1 cost the same mana and have the same crit as vesta 2 but deals less dmg and cant hit additional enemy

3, 4, vestaga and vestala are multi turn spell but they have really poor dmg considering how many turn they take to charge

[toxic elbow]

IMO not as hard as some people try to tell. yes, is worse than before, but it was overperforming and now we have other options of spells and augments and not notice so much diference as before

[cerulean wagon]

Definitely believe it was justified

I honestly believe it's going to be performing the best even after these nerfs

Maybe realm could take over depending on how good the new passive is in practice but not sure

Patch definitely makes everything an even playing field though

[safe burrow]

it's a bit quick to say even, but its more even than it was prior

[cerulean wagon]

Feel like an even playing field*

Yet to see when how its actually going to be when it hits the masses

[safe burrow]

idk about that either 😅 beo's strugglin a lil still. it's great progress though, i'm happy to see the communication and discussion surrounding it all

feels productive

[cerulean wagon]

Well the bonds arent fleshed out, but beo getting a stat passive sounds like a pretty big power boost

[uncut pasture]

It's a big defensive win for us, but remember we still need to redline to get the benefit.

We're still lagging behind in terms of damage output.

[cerulean wagon]

Nah it's all good man

Also I don't think "whatever" got nerfed ever

It's always only the overperforming stuff

[silver mantle]

There isn't a right or wrong answer. Everyone gets to have an opinion. Some people like the changes, some people don't. Some think it was too much, just right, or not enough. The value here is in the discussion. If you don't like the changes then explaining specifically why is the best way to move the conversation forward. Saying things like it was too much without explaining why, or the class is dead without providing backup, isn't going to get us anywhere. Developing a full position that isn't just a string of subjective opinion statements will the be the first step to explaining your thoughts and getting people to consider and discuss them.

The only real argument that I've heard here is, while the augments were indeed overpowered, by releasing them and letting the community get used to them and rely on them, now taking them away is unfair because even though we know they were broken, we spent some time to get them and they made life easier.

That's fair. I just wanted to make sure you felt like your voice was being heard, and if you feel like you got your say and don't want to discuss it anymore, there's nothing wrong with that either. But one point I'd like to make though is that subjective numbers are bad numbers. Numbers need to be empirical and objective to form the basis of an argument. If you feel like numbers were used that aren't accurate, then that's a perfectly valid reason to call them out and either correct the numbers or your understanding of them.

🍻

[uncut pasture]

Look at Ainz being all level headed

[cerulean wagon]

Odie literally looked at the chat and responded

Okay aand you deleted your message

[primal niche]

What a clown 🤡

[cyan furnace]

Personal attacks, figures

[cerulean wagon]

Stating a fact is a personal attack since when

[cyan furnace]

Insulting calling a clown is fact?

[cerulean wagon]

You said you werent heard

[primal niche]

There's nothing left to say. You come in here lying, the dev says you're wrong to your face, and the you keep lying when you say he doesn't listen.
Ergo, you're just being silly. The full response is: 🤡

[cerulean wagon]

I'm talking about my messages

You said you weren't heard, I said you literally got a response from odie and you deleted your message, idk man

[cyan furnace]

Fuximus, you're an online troll getting g off on flaming with personal attacks.

Thats all you are doing

[cerulean wagon]

Fux has the right of freedom of speech

Your messages could also be interpreted as trolling, ngl

[cyan furnace]

Against community tules

[cerulean wagon]

But we instead try to argue and take your points seriously

[cyan furnace]

Which? I'm not going around calling you, or him, a clown

I was not insulting or disrespectful.

He is.

[cerulean wagon]

I really don't want to act butthurt man, but you reacted with my message with a skull emoji

I could interpret that as you telling me to die just like you did fux calling you a clown

You could say that's dumb but I can say the same thing to you

Look, we don't want to act like kids

[cyan furnace]

You put a clown emoji actually, thats all

[cerulean wagon]

We want to talk orna lol

[primal niche]

@cerulean wagon don't bother any more. 😅 Just block him and move on, he's shown his colors in public enough already.

[cyan furnace]

I have been, and fuximus goes into flame war with verbal harassment

[cerulean wagon]

okay man, I wouldnt go as far as calling that verbal harrasment, but everyone has a right to be offended by everything so hats off to you

[cyan furnace]

Not everything

[cerulean wagon]

I just don't think pinging dangy and deleting your message is am adult way of dealing with someone you don't like idk

Anyways, I have stuff to do, I think I said all there is to be said

[cyan furnace]

You're fine tbh

Pinging him to moderate a post that needs to be is pretty tame

I know that's how fuximus rolls, heard it's pretty standard, but it doesn't mean I have to take it. Being called a liar because he doesn't like content, and being insulted personally because he is humiliated and cornered.

[charred osprey]

Hiya folks - let's use the moderator tag rather than personal tags.
I'm occupied, can't read this right now - but a reminder about server rules. This goes for everyone

We can see deleted and edited messages in logs if need be

[cyan furnace]

I reported his post, didn't tell him " to die"... sigh. Not the same thing.

[charred osprey]

Guys (everyone, no one specifically) let's all move on from personally stuff. Rule 2 exists, we'll be issuing timeouts, kicks and bans if this continues.

[sour frost]

Imo, 2-handed weapons need something more than the addition of a 6th adorn slot to keep up with 1-hand + off-hand. Adding in a 7th slot is too potent of a buffing measure, so any chances we could have some unique off-hand skills to come along with them instead?

Something like 2-hand bow's off-hand being a true hit or AoE, 2h scythe's a lifesteal, 2h hammer's a defend similar to Ymir Bastion, etc.

[silver mantle]

2h's could definitely use a boost

I really like the unique offhand idea but I think they could use a little stat bump as well

[tawny monolith]

2hands being a big pile of stats for the lack of utility that 2 different items could provide might be an angle

[bleak rock]

Maybe I missed it, but will there be buffs to the least utilized celestial adornments? Think there's good potential with some additional effects/enhancements

[olive void]

I do not believe buffs have been mentioned

[safe burrow]

it'd be a way better situation if underperforming augments were improved instead of just.. re-buffing prometheus hands

atm nothing really changes in terms of augment usage. any crit build still uses prom, any hybrid non-crit still uses selene, any pact still uses eos, etc.

simply dialing down player power somewhat is an okay outcome, but atm it won't produce more variety and upsets the crowd that isn't a fan of becoming weaker

[tawny monolith]

i would love some augments that fill niches that are actually desired so you can fill your needs with some of the slots
as an example: a bunch of generic stats and bleed immunity on an augment

so if you are playing something and REALLY need bleed immunity you now have an option

it doesnt need to be tuned like crazy, but mixing and matching augments to your needs instead of 5x "best damage augment" would make celestials really nice

[bleak rock]

Yeah that's relatively what I was thinking. I understand it likely won't be part of this balancing but it would be nice as a second update. Perhaps they could add other effects like small chance for HP or mana recovery or change the xp buff.
A minor issue with celestial adornments is they don't allow fine tuning as much as the regular weapons with 8+ slots. Might be cool to give them 1 regular adornment slot at lvl 20

[tawny monolith]

ad a celestial augment that adds 2 normal augment slots or something

[pearl gull]

Not going to delve into the detail too much, but I have been really impressed overall with how NF have incorporated feedback into their approach here.

[steel whale]

The nerfs are fine, maybe could be lessen by 5-10% imo.

[pearl gull]

The Prom Hands nerf breaks my heart a tiny bit, but I understand why it's necessary.

[buoyant valve]

Hard disagree on all points.

[pearl gull]

On all points of the patch? Or just the points above?

[cerulean wagon]

i mean thats kind of just a troll comment lol

which points

people have conflicting views

[silver mantle]

I like pineapple on pizza... agree or disagree?

But seriously, what exactly do you disagree with? There's so much going on here that context is needed.

[cerulean wagon]

feels like its just missing a mimic emoji tbh

[uncut pasture]

Pineapple and cheese pizza is an abomination. Hawaiian pizza is proof of some sort of loving, guiding hand in the universe.

Gotta have the meat juice to cut through that sweet pineapple flavor.

[silver mantle]

Truth

I prefer Bacon over Ham with pineapple

Have a couple slices in the fridge right now that will be lunch soon

[cyan furnace]

Honestly, thars about right. 15% would bring the nerf to a place approaching logic, based on their own numbers, and dismantle the logical (but triggering, see recent personal attacks) observations that question intent and motive. This is predicated on further work being done to reign in gtand summoner, including sticking to their guns on a blood pact nerf for pvp.

[outer prairie]

One of the problems of prom hands is that it was the only augment with consistent % crit chance, there are others augments with much less chance that could have it buffed to similar levels (6-8, or even higher than prom hands ) and maybe we could see them appear in some crit or recharge builds

[dim shoal]

I'm convinced the ultima nerf is going forward and 6 months from now there will be a new balance patch that buffs heretic and deity and nerfs other classes. And then 1 year from now rinse and repeat.

No one ever answers me when I ask why can't the nerfs/buffs be done in a step wise faction instead of big changes at once. Maybe I'm wrong and i's technically difficult (I know zero about programming), but it seems to me that, in a relatively low competitive / mostly single player game, slowly attuning stuff, without the need for beta servers, would both be simpler and less contentious than buffing and nerfing a bunch of stuff at the same time.

[charred osprey]

Balance is incredibly resource intensive, essentially placing other things on hold while the devs dedicate a lot of time to balance. Mechanically, it would cause a larger loss in general game updates, new events and roadmap progress to spend time on balance each month.

Beta tests are extremely useful. It's been proven through this and other updates, and our community really appreciates the opportunity to test and feedback before things go live!

One thing to note is it often takes time for metas to evolve and show themselves and dominant. It's not as simple to predict meta shifts as you may think 🙂

[dim shoal]

I understand, this balance patch seems to be indeed very hard work even if I disagree with some stuff. But to be fair, balance is only as resource intensive because you are trying to fix several things at once. Buffing beo stats a bit and adding avidity at 10% chance (and down the road buff if needed) doesn't sound that difficulty. Same thing for ultima. Halfing the bonus from bullwark/elemental adorns/even faction and seeing if it's still overperforming doesn't seem to hard and would probably be much less upsetting (even if further down the line you took away all buffs).

By the way, I do understand that ultima overperforms compared to other classes like realm/gs/beo. The issue is that as an heretic 250 moderate AL, I don't feel this overperformance on pratice on daily play. I don't feel I should be killing raids slower than I am. On the other hand, when I go on a raid killing spree as a sequencer/oracle I do feel too strong. So I kind see a need for a nerf. But not so much in one go.

[charred osprey]

No, balance is always resource intensive. Again, breaking that down to a regular cadence each month would be very disruptive. The devs definitely need time to focus for extended periods of time on actually developing!

It's fine enough if you think otherwise, but reality is that while we're a team of only a couple of people, this will be the way. One day we might have a huge team and sure, you're desires there might be easier to meet 🙂

I think they do pretty darn good with the resources available to them!

[dim shoal]

Thanks for indulging my rants and answering. Have a nice day Dangy 😀

[charred osprey]

You also 🙂 ❤️

[primal niche]

ultima overperforms compared to other classes like realm/gs/beo
To be clear, GS and Beo can and do use Ultima.
An Ultima change is not a Heretic-specific change.

[brittle wharf]

Maybe Ultima1/2 could use 2/3 spell/skill slots for non mage classes?

With mage classes having the choice to use more slots to use it's full power.

With 1 slot Ultima 1 & 2 have 33% of their full power.

Same with say Realm Strikes. Non theif classes have to use more slots to use it.

Something along those lines. Without causing too much balance issues.

[outer prairie]

Classes that uses ultima usually are already mages: hera, deity, beo and summoner. If a realm or gilga is able to use spells effectively, i think it has earned the right to play with them, lol, they are already short in slots

And now melee users have their own version with celestial classes

[tawny monolith]

the gilgamage and realmmage using ultima is already a thing

[outer prairie]

Yeah! I remember, such dedication shall be rewarded! Not punished!

[lavish trellis]

Its not xD
Its a player not understanding why the community is masochistic and wants to have slower progress for no reason at all.
Now NF proved to be the best studio there is and will ever be.
Community: "But we still want to be nerfed!!"

I... absolutely lost faith :'D

[cerulean wagon]

i meant this

[lavish trellis]

Oh.
Thats basically what 85% of people answered just more condensed.
No argument, just "no".

[cerulean wagon]

yeah people be dumb

[lavish trellis]

I really dont get why people want everything wrong after NF did literally everything right with their last announcement

I never pulled my hat this hard for a studio

But as we already figure in the past in the last beta discussions, i like endless content and having fun steamrolling.
Other people like less fun and wasting more time on earth for the same result.

But we will see what the community comes up with to reach damage cap again^^

[tawny monolith]

Clicking a button 25 times per dungeon is just not engaging gameplay for many people, me included

[warm cave]

Late to the party but I'd say that high level player won't see much of a difference compared to mid/low, but I don't this it's a bad thing. Destroying raids with millions of damage at T11 isn't so bad while doing it at mid T10 is ridiculous. Some augments are just too strong. For me augments should be reworked as niche tools. Best exemple is Selene hands. They allow you to play hybrid so they open up doors. Meanwhile Prometheus hands is just don't change anything just hit 3 times harder.

Modifications to rs and beo are good in that they add uniqueness to the class.

Still desappointed of the unnecessary deity Ara nerf and the overall stat of deity celestials, but at least now they have usefull skills.