Realmshifter changes

[winter temple]

sure thing mate, deity have 100% uptime DC, 400% stat passive, steadfast 4 (100%) and second chance works every turn making us immortal

[half saddle]

Yeah. 😕

[hard sandal]

That's seems to be the case tbh

We have 0 uptime DC, x2.1 stat passive, steadfast 0 and 0 second chanc

[half saddle]

But we have up to 15% damage increase, we good

[winter temple]

let's forget you didn't mentioned half of RS passives

[hard sandal]

glad deities can understand jokes

[stark hound]

Can we not turn this into a deity vs realm thread?

Not productive for anyone

[winter temple]

don't start a joke with "tbh" then

[gritty helm]

Deity > Realm

Now what

[half saddle]

Now we wait for the new skills to be released!

[gritty helm]

Mmmh 👀

[half saddle]

And start all over again

[gritty helm]

Any idea about?

[winter temple]

I think Odie said it'll be a longer beta than usual

[hard sandal]

Yeah

[wicked crater]

can we not turn this into an anyone vs anyone thread, really?

[gritty helm]

Someone told me this place was a war between realm and deity

So I'm here

[wicked crater]

take the class war elsewhere, cheers

[half saddle]

I mean, we're thieves. Don't we want people's stuff? (hoping for "pickpocket skill" skill)

[hard sandal]

+25% bonus luck

[gritty helm]

Looks so useless

[hard sandal]

Wait, we can't use the gear we mostly get with luck, since it's event locked smh

[quick drift]

c'mon nicotres. don't add salt :c

[hard sandal]

Alright alright, you have my list of things that are the problem to RS above

sorry about that

[winter temple]

there's a pokémon passive that make you copy the opponent passive, this is a really realmshifter thing

[pale estuary]

Realm should not be the best Horde class anyway

[gritty helm]

As always

[half saddle]

I like that

[hard sandal]

Yeah, sadly not many can be put in favor of RS, and many enemies don't have passives, or such.

Cool idea though

[pale estuary]

Just make us able to copy opponnents stats in endless

[wicked crater]

1. yeah, psuedo AoE needs to be expanded for all levels of players of all class-types, but especially for Realm in a celestial context due to CS/AV2.

2. yeah, sweep's mana cost is questionable. feels completely arbitrary to be that high. mana tradeoffs are theoretically interesting, but realistically it's an annoying constraint to play around and with how items are designed it's usually solved entirely through one item (see: ONC, FYC, Serpentslayer legs).

3. I don't know about this one, it feels like a "grass is greener" train of thought. Deity is the only one with really "passive" gains, but that's just part of the class. The other class justifications seem forced and are also main concepts of the classes. One could argue for Realm being hit, losing health being "rewarded for playing" or, a stronger point, would be dodging (dorado/feather) being passive benefit. It's not a damage benefit, but it is benefit.

4. bloodshift, yeah, it's always been questionable for recharge to exist. a class' gameplay loop clashing with itself plainly sucks, but recharge is sometimes desirable and that was chosen as the "primary" style, with no-recharge being "secondary", thus not default, thus requiring an action to turn off. it's not ideal, but it works. the actual issue within this point is turn economy, not bloodshift specifically. the following things would ideally be true:
   -- realm's risk//reward is worthwhile. atm it is not. status are too prevalent, too impactful and impacts realm much more than any other class.
   -- bloodshift's turn cost is worthwhile. atm it is, given resurgence's benefit. this is only in contention due to other turn economy issues (see above).

5. statuses are way too lopsided, yes. steadfast turns the mechanic of debuffs off entirely and steadfast is too freely given out. both of these can be seen as problematic. realm and beo get dished a nice big serving of opportunity cost than no other classline needs to even think about.

6. yes, variety is an issue, though i'd say it's less of a spell slot thing and more of a gearing thing, though spell slots makes it more approachable. you can sidestep spell slots by changing your loadout between encounters for that variety which is something non-gs classes don't really have to do, they can just equip it all at once. another thing re:variety... it just doesn't exist for realm. you just have to deal damage, and the ways to do that well are not varied (see: realmstrikes, with little else being worth considering). this is drasitcally improved for mage (chakram, av), beowulf (ish. it's no longer just cactus), gs (ish. ultima's mechanic nerfs lessen this, but theoretically new summons exist).

[hard sandal]

My third point fuses with your 4.1 "realm risk//reward is worthwhile. Atm it is not."

As you said, losing life can be counted as being rewarded because you get more DMG, meanwhile we get more dodge chance because of mystic feather.

Sadly, there are many things that can turn off mystic feather

I feel like we agree in many of the other points

[winter temple]

idk every spells of the game but aren't status under 10% chance for the most part ? Isn't some mini steadfast on gear enough to prevent some of them ?

[wicked crater]

no. one easy example is the different tiers of blightstrike, they sit at 50%

most things sit at 20%~, but many things exist that takes more than a little

[wicked crater]

oh, i lied. it's actually 90%

[winter temple]

20% steadfast is indeed a little too much to get from gear

[wicked crater]

miasma I/II is 90/25% respectively

omnimancy spells are 25%, single elements (eg. tremor) are 20% at the mid-high tiers

so yeah, takes more than a little investment to help against those, but steadfast is given out ~freely and invalidates these most of the time. on the off chance the steadfast classes are affected, they don't die to it in a turn/are forced to cleanse it in a turn

[winter temple]

ymir pendent + prometheus heart may be a good start.

[wicked crater]

✨ opportunity cost ✨

[hard sandal]

It's like the Gilga Hercules problem, they are so used to steadfast that a lot of them prefer going normal gilga over Hercules

[wicked crater]

does realm "needing" to use those make up for the power other classes can get in that slot?

[winter temple]

oh yes forgot people wants it for free with no counter part, mb

[wicked crater]

no, that's not my point 🙂

[winter temple]

just realized that 5 prom heart + steadfast 2 and you're completely immune to status

[wicked crater]

jumping to a statement like that is nothing but hurtful, even ignoring the fact that it's misconstruing things. the point isn't "give realm shit for free", it's "does realm's risk//reward or specificity offer enough reward given other classes don't need to think about those tradeoffs?"

[wicked crater]

also no, statuses have a minimum chance, and multiplicative status chance (eg. assassin) counter steadfast effects very well

if status protection could grant 100% immunity to statuses it'd be a popular route on Realm

but it doesn't, and thus it is not

[winter temple]

well, you could get nealry all immune from gear, people just choose not too because they chose more damage 100% of the time

[fresh aurora]

We need a display for how many cross we hit I a row and how much damage increase for rs corv like how we can see how much ward absorb we got

We dunno how much damage increase for every crit Inna row

Could be 10

Could be 100

[wicked crater]

okay, my questions are:

1. are you sure of this? how do you know that's what "people do", and
2. that doesn't fairly represent the effort/cost of getting status immunities. it's a vague, blanket statement with little (much needed!) context

[wicked crater]

10% per crit, up to 100%

[fresh aurora]

So only 10 times

Doesn't reset?

[wicked crater]

yes. only doubled damage.

[winter temple]

if they were doing it, they wouldn't be complaining about not having steadfast every day

[wicked crater]

it does on miss/missed crit, like the passive states

[fresh aurora]

What abt with shadebladws

[wicked crater]

again, not necessarily true and also sidesteps the entire point of the discussion up till now. i'm not sure what your point is here 😅

[fresh aurora]

Shadeblades*

[wicked crater]

-> #🌳│tier-10-help for these, please

this isn't beta related

[fresh aurora]

Oh yea

My fault

[winter temple]

my point is, why would they need steadfast ? in what scenario is it necessary ?

[hard sandal]

Point 5 and 6 of my list, we do use immunity gear almost all the time, it's just a very burned out topic imo

[fresh aurora]

Yea and we can't have immunity for most status like confused lacuna

[hard sandal]

At least I'm not asking for steadfast, im asking for something to help us deal with that mechanic that we are so weak against

[wicked crater]

1. who asked for steadfast?
2. define ""necessary""
3. it's relevant in any scenario where there are statuses -- every scenario in the game

[fresh aurora]

One status effect and where dead

[hard sandal]

Confused can actually kill you with double edge!

[fresh aurora]

As simple as fire or posion

We are dead

[hard sandal]

And no, you can't panacea since it's confused's choice

[fresh aurora]

Posion flame blight frozen petrified rot and where dead

Stunned to

[hard sandal]

Toxic also, curse

[winter temple]

this is not really a RS talk then, it's a redline talk

[wicked crater]

this feels like old-time discussions where the effect of steadfast is hilariously undervalued, and that realm's requirement to use immunity gear does not exist and the opportunity cost of using immunity gear does not exist.

is using lugus over annwn/briny not a thing? is using bulwark/hererobe not a thing? is resurgence's lowhp req and DoTs existence not a thing?

these combined with the slights at players for seemingly "choosing damage over immunity" i'm confused at how this is constructive conversation

[wicked crater]

coincidentally, realmshifter includes a redlining passive, so realmshifter talk does consist of redlining talk

this is akin to saying to beowulf's talking about followers "this isn't beowulf talk, it's follower talk"

[hard sandal]

Off-topic for a bit: where can I vote for Major to be president?

[young scaffold]

well for that he needs a campaign, and for that he needs funds , so just venmo all your money to 555-.....

[wicked crater]

perhaps i missed where you linked your points to the original discussion, but calling out players for things such as "prioritising damage" is not constructive. it's also counterintuitive to your point and strengthens the realmshifter discussion because other classes do not need to make that choice

[fresh aurora]

We can use anwn and briny but that leaves o8t stunned petrified curse

And I think I'm missing one

[winter temple]

why reduce the status problem to a RS problem every time then ? everytime I see someone talking about status it all RS.

[hard sandal]

Drakeblight!

[fresh aurora]

We can use those but we are still able to be killed by another status effect we have no immunity over

[wicked crater]

someone else take over the reigns, I need breakfast 👋

[stark hound]

I just don’t even see the point of arguing this, much less in this topic

This point has been beaten to death a million times

[young scaffold]

./!clear 50

[hard sandal]

Yet some people still believe it's non existent!

[wicked crater]

this point has been discussed to death three years ago, and back then it was also about scapegoating realm. it's tiring =/

[hard sandal]

Yikes, that sucks

[fresh aurora]

We are immune to dark but can be put to sleep

[wicked crater]

celestials lose elemental res/immunities

fyi

[winter temple]

what would be a solution then ? because complaining about status is a thing, but I never seen any realistic suggestion.

[wicked crater]

there are. pinned messages. offering solutions.

[stark hound]

Having avidity have a higher proc chance when clearing a debuff, as major suggested

[young scaffold]

likterally solutions are in pinned

[wicked crater]

half of this thread was brainstorming solutions and suggestions

[winter temple]

solutions for realmshifters

[fresh aurora]

Why not just give dodo a second life

[wicked crater]

it's a realmshifter thread

feel free to make your own for other classes

[kind raft]

in the thread called realmshifter changes....

[wicked crater]

no one's stopping anyone from doing that

[kind raft]

seems appropriate imo

[young scaffold]

oh in the REALMSHIFTER thread there are solutions for realm?

[winter temple]

if a problem is global among multiple classes, why should it be discussed in separate threads ?

[kind raft]

start your own thread re: status then

the problem is status is class specific

because of how passives work

and classes have different passives that fundamentally change how each class deals with status

so yes status is global, but application is class specific

there's no way to talk about status without making it class specific

[fresh aurora]

Ngl I'd be happ_ if we just can be immune to all basic status effects

And sleep

[kind raft]

just like there's no way to talk about ultima without gear interactions

the two topics are always and forever mixed together in the current game

[pale estuary]

The only status that's rough is confused but other than that, panacea, cure bleeding, etc. let's just put that down until beta is finished please

[pulsar pasture]

More major walls I see

[hard sandal]

It was a wall to answer my wall, so it was really appreciated

[pale estuary]

Base RS mostly struggles with Horde and Tower (for early t10 at least)

[pulsar pasture]

I'd be happy if realm was immune to everything in the game while also getting a damage boost

[pale estuary]

They made towers a bit easier and now horde as well

[pulsar pasture]

Pretty sure it's for late t10 too

[pale estuary]

can't really have RS be #1 on everything or w/e

yeah fair enough

all in all people right now are getting greedy for the AOE and everything

[pulsar pasture]

That's the issue, RS is #1 in nearly nothing

[pale estuary]

Yeah but it doesnt fit the class to be on horde

[kind raft]

then change so endgame isn't 90% horde

if you're going to use "it doesn't fit the class to be on horde" don't make the content basically horde

[pale estuary]

Im not making the content tho

so that's not up to me

[kind raft]

right i'm just saying that argument is flawed when you use typical class characteristics

in a game where the gameplay is horde

[fresh aurora]

I'd say adding event bosses to towers besides lile discourni would be nice

[kind raft]

i guess the question is. why can't all classes do horde when endgame content is mostly horde

[pale estuary]

Thats a fair change

[fresh aurora]

2x speed and maybe a incentive for clearing towers fast would be really nice

[winter temple]

you can by deity ursa which is only usable in horde, perfect combo with RS

[pale estuary]

The best change we need rn

is fasterer faster animation

[fresh aurora]

Bc we walk so slow in towers

Just so boring

[pale estuary]

Were not talking towers here

were talking RS

[fresh aurora]

Yes

[pale estuary]

ok

[pulsar pasture]

You keep talking about towers @fresh aurora

[kind raft]

walk speed buff just for RS because we're thieves class according to traditional RPG amirite?

[pulsar pasture]

Nobody here is discussing towers, rather the discussion is horde content, which is basically the whole endgame

[pale estuary]

Is that just snarky remarks or actual salt because our oppinions differs ?

Hard to grasp when reading

[kind raft]

holy shit, lol. towers would be interesting if odie is like....... no aoe for you but you can walk 2x faster

so net tower time is the same

that'd be hilarious

[verbal frigate]

zoom

[kind raft]

you gotta single target 6 griffons

but hey zoom zoom

[pulsar pasture]

Chained shield and Ara vesta technically aren't AoE

[pale estuary]

Mostly Horde in towers as well

Maybe it's easier just to block off tower access to RS class

and call it a day

[winter temple]

https://tenor.com/view/keemstar-im-fast-as-fuck-boi-keemstar-run-running-fast-gif-18083431

[kind raft]

good point, i call those multi-target 🙂

[winter temple]

ricochet

[kind raft]

but yeah melee still needs a multi target

[hard sandal]

I call those Pseudo-aoe, but yeah, multi target also works

[winter temple]

been asked so much I don't understand why Odie still hasn't talked about it (be it yes or no)

[pale estuary]

Undecided stance maybe

[kind raft]

celestial skills yet to come

so maybe it's there

said THIS WEEK

it's friday

[winter temple]

oooh you're right, forgot

[kind raft]

only 2 days 😄

[stark hound]

It now says this patch I think 😅

[kind raft]

only 2 days to flip table when it's not there 😄

[pale estuary]

Only new skills on celestial no ?

Or regular classes as well ?

[kind raft]

yes but skills you can use

when you unlock

so it doesn't matter

[pale estuary]

yeah

[winter temple]

you don't let him sleep, now you want odie to work during the week-end ?

[pale estuary]

but then doesnt RS still doesnt get touched

[kind raft]

what?

you can unlock and use it as rs?

[pale estuary]

yes

but how do you clear tower as rs

[stark hound]

AV2 and CS are also celestial skills

[pale estuary]

without it

[kind raft]

......? what?

unlock. then use as rs.

[stark hound]

How does gilga clear towers without CS?

[pale estuary]

bro

[kind raft]

they can add multi hit aoe to heretic ara

i'd be happy

[pulsar pasture]

Same as deity

[stark hound]

These skills are for optimizing, you can still clear towers without them lol

[pulsar pasture]

1 by 1

[stark hound]

Exactly my point

[pale estuary]

So the guy that plays RS and starts doing towers

[winter temple]

with pain and time I guess

[pale estuary]

unlocks celestial skill

[wicked crater]

even if all the skills aren't done, releasing them progressively would be nice

[kind raft]

oh, single target

[pale estuary]

from towers

[pulsar pasture]

Issue with realm is its much less tanky than either deity or gilga

[kind raft]

grind painfully for first 200k

then freedom

same as gilga, painful until cs

[pale estuary]

to do towers as RS

[kind raft]

same as heretic

[stark hound]

Allow me to introduce you to our lord and saviour dorado

[kind raft]

painful until av2

[stark hound]

Or Cata spec

[pulsar pasture]

So deity and gilga can afford to be hit 5 times each turn since they'll 0 but realm can't

[pale estuary]

that

[stark hound]

I’ve literally never died in a tower

[pulsar pasture]

Yeah after Dorado it's somewhat fine

[stark hound]

Realm Cata is more than competent enough to clear towers

[kind raft]

^

[pale estuary]

Again, Towers is not meant for early 225 dont get me wrong I know, but saying celestial will help that, when you need the tower farm to get it

[winter temple]

depends, on high levels you really pray for DC to come or else, big trouble

[kind raft]

yes but this is the same for heretic and gilga tho?

[pale estuary]

They can tank at least lol

[stark hound]

You don’t need the celestials to clear the towers though, they just make it faster

[pale estuary]

and not have their dmg halved by beeing full hp

[pulsar pasture]

Only fight I'd avoid is beo and nidhoggs

For nidhoggs I switch to beo anyway

[kind raft]

heretic dmg is halved at full mana?

[stark hound]

Nidhog you can also use a dragon resist amity

[pale estuary]

You dont tank with mana

[weak flare]

Earth strike III

[pulsar pasture]

They can get to low MP without dying tho

[kind raft]

realm cata is plenty tanky....?

[pulsar pasture]

Because nidhoggs hit hard, damage isn't an issue

[kind raft]

yall really having problems with base realm to survive in towers??

[pulsar pasture]

Wouldn't know myself

[pale estuary]

How far deep into lv 250 mentality are you lol

[kind raft]

very deep

[pulsar pasture]

Thought that was the issue at hand for everyone?

[pale estuary]

yeah i see taht

[kind raft]

not really, the issue at hand is speed, not survival

[pulsar pasture]

Yeah 250 shouldn't be a baseline you know that, right?

[kind raft]

why not for towers?

what is the baseline in your opinion

[pale estuary]

I agree 225 is not tower entry level

[kind raft]

literally designed to be end game

[pale estuary]

I disagree 250 has to be.

[pulsar pasture]

Baseline would be decent+ ward gear

[kind raft]

so where do you draw the line

ok what level and what gear

genuinely curious btw

[pale estuary]

the issue is all classes are different

[pulsar pasture]

Then make it accessible only for t11 and not t9 and t10? But that isn't the case therefore the baseline isn't 250

[kind raft]

what does accessible mean

[pulsar pasture]

Able to enter

[winter temple]

that may only be true for Lv50 towers

[kind raft]

towers is accessible, you can enter it

so yeah what's the problem lol

it's accessible today

let me ask the question a different way: what level / gear should be able to clear F50 tower in what time (for realm)

[pulsar pasture]

Thats not a question you can answer without it being incorrect for someone

[kind raft]

(btw i don't have the answer, just an opinion)

[pulsar pasture]

Nor should you base it on that

[stark hound]

Towers were literally created as a new endgame loop. Nevertheless, a level 230 realm isn’t any significantly less tanky than a 250 one, gear is much more a factor there

[kind raft]

yeah i'm curious what everyone's opinion is

there's no right answer, because we're all not the dev

[pale estuary]

Yeah I cant rly answer that I feel like ill need to be 240

[kind raft]

so this isn't shitting on opinions, just collecting opinions

[pale estuary]

and even then im not sure if im unlucky on a.morri drop lol

[kind raft]

i'll go first. i think 250 + 0 asc realm should be able to clear F50 in 60 minutes

[wicked crater]

the studio should have an idea of this, to design the content around. we don't know if it's meeting their standards or not though. an interesting thing is seeing how their goal lines up with player expectations, so the question is cool

[pulsar pasture]

Fact of the matter is.
My Deity can comfortably do towers up to F35 comfortably and very likely past that too
My realm dies floor 2

[stark hound]

I don’t personally think level 225s should be clearing lvl 50 towers unless they have awesome gear and know what they’re doing very well. Difficulty is appreciated in some content imo

[pale estuary]

225 should not I agree, but because of class disrepency all the stuff you invested in the thief line

[pulsar pasture]

Me neither, but level 235s and level 240s should, don't you think?

[pale estuary]

goes down the drain if you want to access towers and try and farm for a cele class

I personally don't mind it, but it's still an actual issue

[stark hound]

If your realm dies floor 2 you’re doing something wrong. Floor 2 isn’t upscaled versus regular mobs

[kind raft]

my own personal POV
225 realm, 0 asc: F20, cannot go past 20 without being lucky
240 realm, 10 asc: F40, 80-90 minutes, painful slog
250 realm, 10 asc: F50, 60-70 minutes, ok but sorta painful
250 realm, 30 asc: F50, 45 mins

NOT INCLUDING QUITTING AND RESTARTING LOL

[pale estuary]

Do you include disconnecting from fight ?

in those 45m+

[kind raft]

what? lol

[stark hound]

?

[wicked crater]

what

[pale estuary]

Some people quit

[wicked crater]

save scumming?

[kind raft]

yeah whatever

[pale estuary]

before dying on the figh

[kind raft]

just start to end

[pale estuary]

if you include those

youre wrong

thats a game flaw lol

[kind raft]

ok then let's not include it

🙂

again it's my opinion

[stark hound]

That never even crossed my mind

[kind raft]

just to give a sense of scale, people can all disagree

same lol

[pale estuary]

Quitting the fight to not die is a game flaw

[kind raft]

hence why the 3 "whats"

[pale estuary]

not a feature

[stark hound]

Agreed

[pale estuary]

so iwhen it gets fixed

and you have 1 try per fight

[stark hound]

But I’d assume it’s to save frustration to people who crash mid fight

[pale estuary]

Sure, give them 2 leaves in a tower

3rd leave is a shame but you lsot thats it

[kind raft]

it's the same shit as gauntlet snapshotting lol

[pale estuary]

Which they dont like as well

[kind raft]

anyways

[pale estuary]

if I remember properly

[kind raft]

that's my opinion re: tower difficulty for realm

[pulsar pasture]

At this point you not only need consider your t10 class but also the celestial ones.
You'll obviously get all of them eventually but it really matters what you pick before you're ready for that

[kind raft]

folks can disagree

[pale estuary]

No one can

[kind raft]

sure they can, they can have a different opinion on difficulty

someone could say no towers should be F50 doable for 225

[pale estuary]

they shouldnt

[stark hound]

Anyway, I don’t quit mid fight and I’d say signet’s proposal is fair. If people want to use those tactics I won’t judge them but they’ll have to eat the time loss

[pale estuary]

I don;t quit either and people do what they want, the only one that can change it is the Dev itself.

[kind raft]

yeah that's a different issue imo

[pale estuary]

But I don't think we should base our opinions and calculation on scaming our way out

[kind raft]

but setting that aside

[pale estuary]

because a lot of people don't use the disc

[kind raft]

do those times / levels make sense?

[pale estuary]

and are not aware

60m for a tower on a gps game is quite a lot

whatever the level lol

[kind raft]

it is what it is today

[pale estuary]

yeah

but I mean

its a long grind for sure

the time makes "sense" in the way that it is today

But if they remove the leaving fight, not sure Ill have panacea on my RS for flor 25 lol

Its either a hit or miss, especally when the boss fight choices is heavily against your class's odds

[winter temple]

@kind raft where did you see additional spells were this week ? in game annoncement it's only later this beta.

[kind raft]

oh that got changed then

earlier in the week it said later in the week

😄

yeah sorry, that got changed

aka more delay until i flip a table

although it makes sense, lots of changes already that prob came ahead of that tho

like the avidity changes

there's a big change for ultima as well

bestial bonds

idk how it all gets done so fast lolz

[pale estuary]

They sure are keeping themselves busy lol

[winter temple]

then it's probably better not talk RS horde speed before next week and potential melee AOE

[kind raft]

no we keep talking about it in a civilized way

the war is not won sir

[pale estuary]

Yeah cus I think Sweep is fine on other classes no ?

[kind raft]

not really

[pale estuary]

Same deal just more mana then nvm

[winter temple]

did you try a tower with sweep dorado avidity 3 ?

[kind raft]

it's fine when you add in elemental boosters for full damage (which is also true for realm)

but not for boosters in horde

[winter temple]

I think only other class to use it is deity, and no sweep is not good there (at least not as good as bard/charmer)

[pale estuary]

Fair enough then

I use it rn to do horde for the cerus essences (?) and sometimes the bosses but yeah 1 status effect and it start going downhill from there lol

[latent cobalt]

I wish Omnistrike/Omnistrikes could hit all mobs 😢

[pale estuary]

They could change multi hit skills to transfer to the other mobs, so ultima can horde lol

Would give Hexacut a use :/

[winter temple]

realmstrikes killing everything turn one

[latent cobalt]

I'm in. Let's do it.

[pale estuary]

Lets change to non critting hit maybe

so its not TOO op

just op enough

[winter temple]

ok, warrior's pavane killing everything turn one

[pale estuary]

Hexacut S class skill ??

[glacial scroll]

That would be really cool

[winter temple]

warrior's pavane is just hexacut on crack

[pale estuary]

yeah but 6 hits mean more aoe

and then 1 extra hit incase of miss

[latent cobalt]

A passive that allows multi hit skills to transfer over damage if any number of hits would kill the mob. As in if the first hit kills mob A, the next hit goes over to mob B. Etc.

[pale estuary]

Add it as passive : Thief's Swiftness : Allows muti-hit non crit to transfer

and then on corvu

Thief's Swiftness XX : All hits AOE as crit x 2.5 damage multiplier

[noble shadow]

avidity could be made based on entropy where the starting value is random, but the added value scales off of dex, that would be pretty cool

[hard sandal]

as a 228 realm, the first one is really true

Made f50 with 228 deity though luckily for me

[pulsar pasture]

So if a 228 realm can't reach f50
But a 228 deity can
How is that not a class issue?

[hard sandal]

It totally is, yeah, even though most players will say that "deity is very bad at low Al and low LV" just because it doesn't have crit bonus

But it has a LOT of survivability though

I have to say I changed to Arcanic at trolls in f30+ and to RS at Pegasus, anything else just Deity

[elfin hound]

I think that NF was pretty clear that defensive builds were a must for towers as a design choice. Rs just struggles to have builds like that due to its stats. I think the whole identity/build ability is just very hard for rs. But that doesn’t make it unfair

[pulsar pasture]

So if a realm wants to do towers he can't
Unless he gets Dorado, but to get that he needs to do towers which he can't because realm can't

So he needs to switch to a different class for that type of content? Nice.

Same as GS needs to switch to something else to codex, where a skill that would tell the summons to not hit this target would help a ton and probably not just for codexing either.
Fights like the double meliodas are more dangerous because the summons will spread their damage across both resulting in a slower kill of a dangerous target, if you told your summons to not attack this one they'd focus on the remaining one killing it much faster

[glacial scroll]

im guessing thats cause realm has bad aoe?

i think its a bummer than towers are so aoe heavy tbh

[elfin hound]

Not what I was saying. Just that risk vs reward play-style is very dangerous in towers and that has been the trope this class has

[pulsar pasture]

Has the same AoE as any other melee class
Chained shield helps dorado

[pulsar pasture]

Soo..it IS a class issue..

[elfin hound]

IMO the challenge with towers is not the stats, but trying to deal with AOE with limited AOE

[glacial scroll]

i threw this out there during towers beta, but i think tower encounters could be like mini dungeon with a couple of floors(like 1-3), so at first there are some weaker enemies and then you get thrown the aoe

so atleast you could setup

[dark ridge]

If monsters acted as fast as summons the lack of aoe wouldn't bug me lol

[elfin hound]

I’m happy to talk about solutions to the issue you are talking about. I was just trying to identify the problem 😃

[glacial scroll]

like you go into a baldr encounter and at first its a couple of nothren then floor 2 is a couple of baldrs

no clue if that would trivialise it though

[pulsar pasture]

A fix would be better gear options for realm maybe?
I really don't understand why realm is so squishy in the same gear as deity is

Base stats too different?

[elfin hound]

Abyss, not cool.

[elfin hound]

I think it is due to the dc proc and the ability to wear the most defensive gear without giving up on status immunities

[pulsar pasture]

Most my DC procs come from Phoenix despite running deity

[elfin hound]

Like Baldur, fyc, onc, with an arisen shield as an off hand is amazing. Stacked with the ability to have a attack/magic weapon for WP or MD or other skills is just exactly what you need in towers

[pulsar pasture]

Fyc and onc are all classes tho

[elfin hound]

Sure but the use of defensive modifiers is higher, and other classes need more to do the same. Like heratics need more m2 so might bring robe. Gilgas need more ward modifiers so they might bring a higher ward % chest. Similarly with the hats

[pulsar pasture]

But higher ward % gear is what any class wants

[elfin hound]

Ideally you wouldn’t have to not wear the items mentioned. And I left out event items for simplicity. Like Ymir chest is better then the FYC. But just to keep things simple I wanted to focus on base items

[elfin hound]

Sure if that is what you are going for. Stats are typically much better for towers due to the damage mitigation and not having to press Ward of Ortanite 50+ times.

[elfin hound]

The worry I have with more better gear is that is just the definition of power creep. I’m not sure that more creep is better just to do towers (intended to be hard)

But ultimately the devs will decide. They did note that realms have the least clear for towers

[latent cobalt]

Yikes I just got wrecked on flor 15 with 4 immortal lords. Best gear, Lv 250 6.5k def/att asc 25. Didn't even get a turn I had 1 turn.

That was my first tower, to be honest. But I had my best defensive gear on and my best weapon too.

So yeah I'm down for some changes

[pulsar pasture]

If you went deity, you'd have easily survived that encounter on a higher floor

[latent cobalt]

I'll admit, it was a challenge. I don't think I'll be doing more towers unless there's a way to clear the group faster, I would survive if 3/5 mobs died, but none did.

Also, on Avidity, I think it would only really be useful if I got another turn before all the mobs. Otherwise, the result would be the same.

[pulsar pasture]

Faster way would be GS

Chained shield/Ara vesta II deity/heretic

[latent cobalt]

I'm here more to point our some RS difficulties, rather than RS vs Other Classes

I don't have enough knowledge to do the latter

[thick sand]

I have about the same def as you lycus, what's your health and using a ward activation amity?

Actually I have 1k less

[mild scroll]

Hello, sorry to come out of nowhere with one heck of a chunky post but we've been working hard on this all day:

Edit: Odie responded a few messages below!

Preface:

This list has been put together by a group of endgame Realmshifter mains to try and help improve Realmshifter's viability in endgame content before it's put into the main game. We're aware large balance patches like this aren't done lightly by Northern Forge, so we'd like to help try and put Avidity and the class as a whole in a balanced, fair, and useful state prior to the launch of this balance patch. These are just suggestions and ideas, but they have all been discussed and tweaked prior to being presented to Northern Forge. We hope that Odie and the Northern Forge team read through and at least consider some of these.

Endgame Realm Balance Patch Suggestion List:

1. Avidity should trigger on all enemies, whether they survive the attack of not. [Alternatively trigger independently of the number monsters on screen before or after.]
   Lugus gauntlets and other buff-applying effects trigger on dying enemies, and currently Avidity not doing so leaves it to not trigger all that much when trying to run horde content and leaving something like a single survivor, which is the exact time that a Realmshifter would like to see Avidity the most. An alternative to this would be changing avidity's proc to not be per-enemy and instead be per action of the Realmshifter (and likely giving Avidity a slightly higher proc chance), which would balance the ability out to not be as unbalanced in Horde as many other triggered buffs are.

2. An increased Avidity trigger chance when using a debuff skill or clearing a debuff from yourself.
   This lets Realmshifter play into the class identity of a sneaky thief, while also helping with the issue of turn economy. Giving debuffs or debuff clearing skills a higher chance to proc avidity helps to solve the issue of debuffing or clearing a DoT off oneself often feeling like a wasted turn unless it's directly required for the encounter. Some of Realmshifter's largest turn economy issues come from debuffing enemies or trying to remove DoT effects from themselves.

3. We'd like to see a multi-target skill for Realmshifters to use (like Chained Shield or Ara Vesta II)
   We're aware new skills are still coming, but we felt this was good to mention just in case as it is a major pain point. This is actually not as big of a buff in the endgame as it may initially seem, as Chained Shield works very well with Realmshifter Dorado for the purposes of clearing towers. However, while Chained Shield works it still doesn't quite fit well with with Realmshifter, even Realmshifter Dorado. With both Mage and Warriors getting a non-spec locked multi-target spell we would appreciate the Thief line getting one that thematically fits with it as well. This would also help non-endgame Realms in horde content as it's a nice middle ground between lower damage full AoE and high damage single target.

4. Please clear up some of the murkiness on how the Dorado passive works.
   One major concern is how much of an investment Realmshifter Dorado requires to properly utilize it's passive. How 'online' the passive is isn't referenced in-game anywhere, and it makes it difficult to properly judge the class. Realmshifter Dorado has notably lower base dexterity than standard Realmshifter and many feel like this is a problem, however without knowing the values of or to what extent the Dorado passive is effective it becomes hard to make an assessment of how to build for the class. We'd like to ensure Realmshifter Dorado is in a good place after this patch, but giving proper feedback on the dex problem without knowledge of the passive is nearly impossible.

=====
Created and signed by:
@mild scroll
@wicked crater
@kind raft
@stark hound
@marsh belfry
And several other endgame Realmshifter mains.

Approved and discussed by the #811254753178550333 channel in Orna Legends before being presented.

[mild scroll]

Apologies for the ping, but @marble raft (or another mod), any way that this could be pinned?

[latent cobalt]

HP is around 13k (55k ward), not using ward amity. Using crit amity and putting up WoO turn 1.

[marble raft]

no

[mild scroll]

Ok 😔 || ||

[hard sandal]

10/10 script adopting the changes of the beta.

I'd personally like to thank you for using the word "thematically" in the multi-target skill point. It's all I want with a skill that resembles that 💜

[kind raft]

Odie is gpt4 we are just prompt engineers 🙂

Drake meme no: give us Ara strikes 2

Drake meme yes: give us thematically appropriate multi target skill

[timid plume]

1. bug - will fix
2. will consider
3. i think the way this is going is that avidity is good horde content helper. i don't see us sticking in new aoe skills right now
4. 3000

[latent cobalt]

Lol

Had no other way to pass the floor. Cool

[young scaffold]

amity to start with ward

[flint plume]

whoa did somebody say realmy to get a possible thematic aoe skill?

we all know that would be a critical chance in that

[kind raft]

no per 3) above from odie

[latent cobalt]

That shouldn't be the only option. In my opinion.

[young scaffold]

shot down by the big man within an HOUR! not many suggestions get yeeted that fast.

[latent cobalt]

Maybe this isn't the place to post that, I apologize

[dark ridge]

If 3000 dex is the dorado cap I got it basically right on the money

[cold vine]

defense gear? 🤔 16k seems high for turn1.
floor26 w/o t.def^^ is also unfortunate.

[dark ridge]

And that cap is way too low

[kind raft]

the cap is low or the effect is low

[dark ridge]

Yes

[kind raft]

good

[latent cobalt]

Swapped some things out, but just shy of 6k def/res.

[kind raft]

so tl/dr basically... make sweep work with avidity

is the answer for aoe for horde boss

[dark ridge]

The Dorado passive is my favorite one in the game now.

[kind raft]

and for towers, chained shield at full ward and go to town

[dark ridge]

How much damage are you people putting out with CS?

[kind raft]

60k

60-70k

with like.. 50 asc

[dark ridge]

So the same as AV2. For now.

[kind raft]

what

av2 is like 80-100k?

or am i wrong

[dark ridge]

As a Realm

[mild scroll]

Thank you 🙂

[dark ridge]

My floor 1 damage is ~60k

[kind raft]

bold with odie tag on the reply but not the initial post knight

[mild scroll]

Fun fact, there's an option to turn off pings when you reply

[kind raft]

@dark ridge uhhh... av2 as realm?

[mild scroll]

Which I always do when replying to Odie lol

[kind raft]

welp, TIL

[mild scroll]

See, no ping

[kind raft]

oic

[timid plume]

and then ping, see

[dark ridge]

Yes.

You've seen this before anyways

[kind raft]

WTF RUDE

EVERYONE

i'm not john

ping john he likes it

[cold vine]

ok

[dark ridge]

AV2 is bae and I will never have a good chained shield build with my 200k ward

[mild scroll]

Is that selene hands in a celestial bow?

Or prom hands?

[kind raft]

yeah show build plz lol

that looks super cursed

and i love it

[dark ridge]

Selene Hands are "ok",

[mild scroll]

Ah, Hybrid Amity, of course

[dark ridge]

But that's full prom

[mild scroll]

That Amity actually does have a use 😆

[kind raft]

favor is crit dmg?

[dark ridge]

The crit loss from the update is gonna hurt

Yeah

40%

[latent cobalt]

What's the 2nd amity?

[kind raft]

hybrid / crit 40

[latent cobalt]

Thanks

[kind raft]

@wicked crater congrats your suggestion is on the radar for consideration

[mild scroll]

Obviously this is a little derailed from Realmshifter changes, but I like that. Definitely out of the box thinking for a build

Thanks for sharing it

[dark ridge]

I've been running this for awhile and honestly I love it

Maybe if our base Mag was buffed from 35 to... like 300

[kind raft]

moving to rs chat coz uh.. off topic

even tho it's realm

[dark ridge]

Lol

Ya

[hard sandal]

So essentially the only true use of avidity all along was to help with horde, so RS doesn't get specifically a thematic AOE/multi-target? Alright

[stark hound]

Nowhere was that suggested. What Odie stated is that they believe avidity is enough to help with horde, not that it only is useful for horde

[timid plume]

i don't think that was suggested, no

[kind raft]

avidity = turn economy, horde has turn economy issue, but is a subset of turn economy

avidity solves for turn economy, and as such is believed to be sufficient for horde

odie, appreciate the responses to the 4 items ❤️

ok gang what's the next 4 questions, let's take this asynchronous Q&A for a ride huh?????

[wicked crater]

can the 3k dex cap be reached via resurgence, or is it an out of battle thing?

[marsh belfry]

1. new adornments with dex + desirable stats?
2. warrior gear with dex as an option for the future, or are they likely to stay seperate?
3. can Dorado get bow and greatbow profiency?
4. favorite type of pie

[wicked crater]

hey, hey slow down. realm's base magic got buffed this patch already

don't be absurd

it went from 34 to 35.

[kind raft]

^ op

[marsh belfry]

post the chart

For the luls

[wicked crater]

https://discord.com/channels/448527960056791051/1097599634672734349

[kind raft]

realm changes:

1. introduced avidity
2. mana went from 34 to 35

SHIP IT

[cold vine]

1. was fomorian event gear +dot meant to be a teaser? will thief classline lean into dots more or is that abandoned now
2. will dorito (or any other celestials) start getting ele res/immunes back or are they all non-immune forever?
3. is the raid speed (of corvus) considered in a good place, or too high or low?
4. it claims to be a "realm" shifter -- when do we get parallel universes or are we already in one?

[dark ridge]

That +1 times your ascensions is really gonna add up. Throw in Jinns and Magic Boost and it may become 2 or even 3 magic.

[marsh belfry]

This is a good question though, tagging for more visibility

[dark ridge]

I want to live in the parallel universe where Realm is the best class and Heretics are sad (well for a good reason at least)

[half saddle]

Can we get Odie's response to the last pin, pinned as well?

[half saddle]

@marble raft

This one: #1097566876395118632 message

[patent comet]

4. RS should have access to exclusive OR events 🤫

Or a 30 min re-entry reduction

😅

[mild scroll]

Alternatively I can add Odie's response to the main post

For organization

[kind raft]

plz do

[half saddle]

Either way

[kind raft]

in line with color coding plz

[half saddle]

Great post btw, and happy we got a quick response

Really hoping for Avidity increase with buffs/cleanses. That to me is much better than extras added for attacks.

[mild scroll]

😐

Ok, I will not be doing that

That's with just the link to Odie's response btw

[half saddle]

Lol

Plan B, moderator

[dark ridge]

Just paraphrase Odie in a way that'll most aggravate people once they learn what he actually said

[hard sandal]

You can do a thread, prepare the message and separate it, then out it at the same time

[mild scroll]

The thread won't be easily visible from the pin

And we're already in a thread, I don't think Discord allows threadception

[fresh aurora]

I tested sweep with rs corv and a cel scythe with mostly atk

[mild scroll]

I just added in a note to the message that Odie responded shortly below it

[fresh aurora]

It was I had gunner both ayk and all berserk it was good but only when I was lredline

I seen it

[hard sandal]

Oh, I didn't mean that kind of thread, I meant a thread-message, like the one's on Twitter

[restive spoke]

Well, this thread certainly has been busy 👀
Great job on the discussion and summations everyone 🤍

[half saddle]

Are you able to pin Odie's response to the last pin?

#1097566876395118632 message

[marble raft]

I was catching up on the thread

saw a pinworthy message

"pinned it"

only to find out I actually had unpinned it

[pulsar pasture]

Time will tell, but I doubt it.
It'll help, but it won't enable realm to do horde nowhere near as well as it's mage counterpart

[blissful thistle]

Fallen Realmshifter has Avidity too? damn that sucks 🤣 on of my worst Horde Mode Mobs has the Ability to maybe do 2 turns in a row 🤣

[limpid ruin]

Thank you everyone for putting together that feedback set and presenting it to NF. Super constructive.

[pulsar pasture]

Really?

That sucks

Especially so for endless

Realm is the live version of
"Boss when you fight it"
Vs
"Boss when you unlock it as a playable character"

[blissful thistle]

@pulsar pasture ^^ would prove with a screenshot, unsure if its allowed to post em here.

[calm quail]

definitely allowed

[limpid ruin]

Ive been looking through the Pinned messages and have seen the proc rate for avidity is thought to be 15% to 25%.

Apologies if Ive missed it, but is that chance multiplied by the number of mobs in a horde battle?

[hard sandal]

Yes it is, not exactly multiplied, but yeah

[dark jasper]

How is a avidity going to help in towers, where we have to single target

[blissful thistle]

@pulsar pasture

[limpid ruin]

Cool, thank you.

So against Hati in towers that means we are nearly guaranteed an extra turn off the bat?

[hard sandal]

Against 5 monsters is 76% if I remember correctly

[blissful thistle]

would say it helps in some kind of way, to get lucky a second turn after attacking. surely not gonna change the single targeting mobs in a horde encounter.

[hard sandal]

With dorado

[limpid ruin]

I think Avidity will be helpful the same way that AV2 is helpful. It won't "hit two" every single time, but it'll give that chance.

[dark jasper]

Ok I'm not in beta sorry

[limpid ruin]

I think the proc rate may need tweaking but Im quite excited overall about it.

[dark jasper]

So I single target 1 of 5 enemies, I might get an extra turn after?

[blissful thistle]

same, could proc more often.

[limpid ruin]

Im not sure if you specifically need to target them or not, good question.

[dark jasper]

Uhh

I thought it steals turns from the enemy I hit?

Or does it give me Extra turn

[limpid ruin]

Actually, from looking back at the pinned messages I think youre right about this

[hard sandal]

It gives you extra turns

So you don't cancel casts

like Ultima and such

[limpid ruin]

And is the proc rate dependent on mobs you actively target? Or just on the number of mobs in the battle?

[wicked crater]

atm if you kill them then no, but that's a bug to be fixed

[limpid ruin]

Thanks Major

[wicked crater]

it's the number of enemies you hit

[hard sandal]

Yeah

[limpid ruin]

Ah ok

[wicked crater]

however you hit them, it's that

[limpid ruin]

That kind of sucks from my point of view but Im sure Ill get used to it

[hard sandal]

We'll have to use sweep to use a nice avidity in horde

[wicked crater]

oh i see what you're asking. yeah, no free procs for just facing more enemies

you've got to hit them all

[blissful thistle]

sounds like avidity is made more for horde mode encounters. 🤔 and a maybe nice addition to normal fights if you are lucky.

[wicked crater]

yeah

[hard sandal]

In basic numbers, for Dorado it's up to a 20% DPS boost

In single target dmg

[limpid ruin]

So to leverage the proc rate in horde fights, you need to either be using Bric bow or cs - is that right?

[hard sandal]

Or zwei, yes

[limpid ruin]

Oh yea, zwei as well

From my my pov, this is great for horde dungeons but not huge for towers.

Although with some zwei builds in towers it may be workable

[blissful thistle]

same, but also zwei-fencer was imo enough for horde. ^^

[hard sandal]

For me personally, the part I don't like about avidity is Zwei

We get stuck without a thematic AOE/Multi-target skill

And for low Al people, zwei has a huge mana cost

[blissful thistle]

@hard sandal you mean cause you have to use zwei?

[hard sandal]

Essentially, even though it's not "needed"

[blissful thistle]

feeling the same, avidity seems to be a "have to go with zwei"

[hard sandal]

And it makes Dorado even better for horde, being already the "horde RS"

Base RS, specially low level, has to switch to deity to complete towers for RS dorado

And then just get a chance at beating them

[blissful thistle]

i rather would still use cata in towers for more safety, it feels even if im lucky enough to get another turn i still wont kill the extremely hard horde mobs in towers, like the mimics or dragons

[hard sandal]

Of course cata is still the right play, and we get "stuck" again with the single proc rate avidity in horde

Maybe for Dorado it changes, but for base RS it is

And I mean base RS because if you have Dorado why would you go back if not for maybe raids

[blissful thistle]

sometimes also it feels like if the drop qualtity would be better things would change. cause yeah a 200% ONC would be a game changer, but that drops are like to rarely, game rather gives you salas hood (or how its called) nr 120438921 xD

[hard sandal]

xDDD Totally agreed, I find Salas hood all the time

[limpid ruin]

On a side note, have you guys grabbed a good set of Serpentslayers Legwear? Those are meant to really help with the mana cost for sweep.

[hard sandal]

Haven't gotten luck yet

Just as Riftrogue boots

[blissful thistle]

yeah same problem, drops are totally random and rarely good. ^^ and as much as i love this game i dont like that hard of a grind a whole month to get something ornate

cause mostly even legendary t10s are not as good as the polly boots

[limpid ruin]

Yea Ive never been a fan or rng. But I think its a fact of Orna life. Id keep trying for those, they could make a world of diff.

Anyway I dont want to take us off on a tangent.

[hard sandal]

If only we got good non-event gear (not counting all-classes gear)

[limpid ruin]

Regarding Avidity, I would love it if the proc rate in towers approximated the rate that AV2 hits double targets. That has been great for me and I think that level would be really helpful for RS mains who havent gone the Dorado route

[blissful thistle]

would be a fan of that rng if mobs would stay in game. ^^ cause mostly events are 1 Month, 1 Month to be on sick leave and grind the hell out ouf it and after that maaaybe its coming back for a week in a year or months later, where it feels like i have to play everyday that week to be lucky

[hard sandal]

What's the rate of av2?

[wicked crater]

2/3

[limpid ruin]

Yea, to be honest anything north of 50% would work for me.

Heretic Ara had made towers so much more accessible for me. So something with a similar rate would be great.

Although, at least for me, I would still be in a position where I need to buff to be able to one shot most mobs. So even with a higher proc rate it wouldnt be quite as seemless as AV2.

All that being said, Ive very arbitrarily picked AV2 as a benchmark, lol

[hard sandal]

If that was base and wasn't scaled, might be a problem against single target DMG

[limpid ruin]

Agreed definitely.

[hard sandal]

I mean, we have an RS that uses Ara vesta 2 in towers

[limpid ruin]

It would still need to scale, but it would be nice if it could scale up to 50%+

[limpid ruin]

Really? Ive not seen that. Are they rolling with Crowsong?

[hard sandal]

Yes

It's Akintude

Check Realmshifter chat in Orna Legends xD

RS Dorado Oracle Ara Vesta 2 user

[limpid ruin]

I think it's a sad state of affairs when RS is clearing towers better with magic than melee

[hard sandal]

It truly is

[blissful thistle]

also randomly guessing, if avidity stays as it is there will be a Month with gear drops, supporting the avidity skill... that are rare as heck to come by in a ornate quality 🤣

[hard sandal]

Yes, im 100% sure it will be an event

[blissful thistle]

guess builds also would profit in case of a bigger variety, from events beeing implementent in game, like the gear (last month 🤔 ?) supporting DOTs and supporting skills to hit more enemys. would be really cool 😄 that event was aweseome

[hard sandal]

Yeah, Fomonian was cool

Though I find ironic how RS is the "best class" for debuffs meanwhile it's the most affected by them

[blissful thistle]

yeah same but at least with avidity it gives me more the feeling of beeing a Thief, who is able to maybe hit twice in a row
another nice thing would be a ability/skill that actually has to do something with thievery, maybe more items that drop, mabye a steal skill, or whatever.

[hard sandal]

There wouldn't still be much of a use because most items or passives don't even combine well with RS

Also, the max luck is 400%, with some gear you can go near that no problem

[pulsar pasture]

Band of gods doesn't give luck

All you need for luck cap is a demonforged mighty/mightiest mimic head
Demonforged jolly stockings (any tier)
And dowsing rod

Or demonforged mighty/mightiest mimic head, masterforged jolly stockings, dowsing rod and the daily luck bonus

[wicked crater]

i kinda hope avidity gear doesn't become much of a thing, if at all

it'd be cool to leave it as an actual unique thing to the thief line. it's also a super potent effect so handing it out is.. questionable

[limpid ruin]

What about avidity gear locked to thief* classline?

[pulsar pasture]

Beowulf, deity

[limpid ruin]

Oh yea, ignore me

[wicked crater]

yes, that. there's also something special (imo) about having a properly unique mechanic to the class in the form of passives

it's not a thing to continuously build into. it's a class thing you get for playing the class, no other way

plenty of other stuff to throw on gear

[desert relic]

Does new passive work on turns (so can make ult strike 1 turn) or just moves?

[pulsar pasture]

Latter

[wicked crater]

you can gain a turn and cast US before the enemy moves

Avidity is another turn in every sense of the word

[pulsar pasture]

Basically you get 2 turns in a row while the enemy sits and waits, meaning something like ultimastrikes can technically be 1 turn. technically by a long shot

[wicked crater]

standardising that terminology is going to make things very confusing, just a warning

there's no distinction between a "regular turn" and an "avidity turn"

[pulsar pasture]

I know

[limpid ruin]

Is it worth us defining some of these things and pinning them to a thread?

[hard sandal]

Whoops, my bad, fixed it

I meant bag of treats, said bag of gods, and the just changed it to band xD

[hard sandal]

Like immunity gear

[pulsar pasture]

A piece of gear that gives ward and immunity to burning, rot, paralyzed and frozen would very immediately turn bis for realm

[hard sandal]

Does beguiled Katar give ward? Either way Ymir is still best

[limpid ruin]

My bmk gives 84% ward, so its c. half of what ymir gives. I tend to keep ymir in my lineup for the def/res.

[hard sandal]

Ymir weapon has a lot of att + a shit ton of adorns, being why I praise it a lot, on top of the elemental bonus dmg

Katar being an option is still something, it's sad it's event-locked immunity gear

That's the "only part" that makes it usefull

If it didn't have that it would be almost not used at all

[limpid ruin]

You mean the status immunity is the only reason to use it?

[hard sandal]

It's not only that, since it can be used in other types of playstyles, but most of it's uses I think come from the status immunity

[limpid ruin]

Yea Id agree with that.

[hard sandal]

We have to give an off-hand slot to free up an accessory

[limpid ruin]

I was basically typing the same thing, lol. So you view it as a bad thing that the off hand is being sacrificed, or do you view it as a good thing that players have the flexibility to choose which one they give up? Or do you have a different take all together?

[hard sandal]

I'd say an off hand slot is more important than an accessory slot, since we get 2 of those, so I would see it in a bad way since we're using an even more important gear choice trying to cover for our weaknesses

[pulsar pasture]

It's bad that you need to lock either both of your accessory slots or an accessory slot and the off-hand (where you also lose the shield)

If you want full status effect immunity you need to also lock your weapon slot into arisen nagamaki for bleed immunity

[hard sandal]

And you are still weak to many status that way

[pulsar pasture]

Imo more weapons should give bleed immunity
Achyls razor for one

[limpid ruin]

I agree with all those sentiments definitely.

I think this in a way comes back to the question of what do players need to give up to get something else.

[hard sandal]

More and better (specially non-event) thief 1h weapons should get made considering to at least fight against Ymir or Arisen nagamaki, in end game, now with the nerf of celestial crit(won't touch the topic too much), it's still only better to use 2h in almost all scenarios

[limpid ruin]

Im really curious though about Gorgon eye to help with status resistence. Once ive got enough I'm planning to full scale swap out my fero eyes for gorgon eyes.

[hard sandal]

You get less mana, right?

From gorgon eyes

[limpid ruin]

I believe so. But I think Id prefer to take that hit and get a bit of help with status protection personally.

-30 mana standard rarity

[hard sandal]

And how much status %?

[limpid ruin]

3% status protection

[hard sandal]

So 10 base ones would give 40% crit chance +30% status protection -300 mana?

They are actually quite nice

[limpid ruin]

Yea I think it goes a long way to addressing turn economy for RS, especially when you're redlining.

I imagine "broken" or "poor" would have a smaller penalty but I havent found any yet.

[hard sandal]

I still haven't killed any Noble Perseus, I have 4 or 5 though

[limpid ruin]

I would be farming them pretty hard if I had enough scrolls

Hey question for anyone in beta - has anyone seen if they can design a workable build with Bric bow in towers? My feeling is that it would be hard just given the low damage it would do without buffs.

[hard sandal]

Celestial with prime shoulders/feet with bric in off-hand would work in a defensive build I think

Everything else can be ONC, FYC, Riftrogue boots, and adapt things as necessary

If you go with catha the ward regen should be very good

[calm quail]

more like, RS clears towers better by pretending to be a gilga or here than playing as actual rs

[hard sandal]

Wasn't Dorado a Gilga subclass? (I'm joking)

One of the things I personally didn't like at all when I reached T9 was cathaphract. Now, not only it is needed to survive towers as an RS, it has its own celestial

[calm quail]

it's not exclusive to rs, i tower as here corv with cata for ward turn start because ward turn is just a must

you pretty much need to start with ward turn whatever class you play for towers or you just die on the fast mobs

[hard sandal]

I disagree, I run my towers atm with 228 deity and I can complete most of the encounters, even the ones in high floors, with zwei or raider (even not using sweep)

[limpid ruin]

I dont think Ive ever cleared a tower of any height without Cata

Part of that Im sure is just me

[hard sandal]

For my first real attempt I did RS catha until I unlocked deity via the achievements, then switched to deity to complete around 32 floors and beating the titan by swapping into Raider + RS

After that I did my first f50 with deity catha, and now I just do a tower of any height with the spec that I have on atm

Even though if I switch to RS and try to do the same, I don't make it past the 20th floor even with luck by my side

[calm quail]

well that's the issue, you said most and not all

my here corv clears all

immo lords, succs, beos, whatever annoying matchups

[hard sandal]

Well, that's because I am 228 low Al imo, even with catha there are fights that I cannot do, while surprisingly they are the same

[calm quail]

cata doesn't matter though, i know some people run oracle with ward turn as one of the amity

i just prefer cata because it has stats

[hard sandal]

I find the ward regen to be the important part of cata tbh

[calm quail]

oracle doesn't

ward regen doesn't matter to me, i never reach 0 ward even without regen, usually everything is already dead before that

and you receive almost 0 dmg when dc is up that you don't need ward

it's just insurance on those cases where your dc isn't up yet

[hard sandal]

That's what I mean by the LV + al difference, once you get enough ward/defense mobs deal less DMG and therefore you don't need ward regen to increase the ammount of HP/ward you have, since it's already enough

[kind raft]

Avidity helps chained shield as well btw

You’d be able to cast consecutive chained shields if proc goes off

Also re: horde / single target it’s super helpful for single target… it’s basically a mini melee sequencer (with an extra tap) so think for long raids that speeds it up

[pulsar pasture]

So it does skip every enemy?

[kind raft]

Ultima strikes being 2 turn, also viable

Yes it’s YOU go AGAIN

[pulsar pasture]

Niche

[kind raft]

you cast, pet goes, if procs, you go again ahead of all enemies

It adds a turn for you to the turn order immediately

Ever play monopoly

[covert turret]

Its pretty sweet

[kind raft]

Get doubles

Get to roll again immediately

That’s avidity

[pulsar pasture]

You don't need to explain it in 5 different ways man

[kind raft]

Maybe not for you

But seems like people are still confused what it does

[pulsar pasture]

Pretty sure anyone would understand "if it procs it will skip all enemies"

[covert turret]

Did some horde runs with Dorado zwei and it procs enough that when you can't clear the whole floor in one sweep, often enough you get to sweep again immeaditely

[blissful thistle]

i guess with the Deity 0 Asc Lvls? what was your Equipment, could you share? 😄

[pulsar pasture]

I just hope enemies don't start getting avidity immunity as a "balance measure"

[kind raft]

Also good for endless if you need another hit re: single target

[covert turret]

That would be very couterproductive

[kind raft]

So all round improvement in turn economy

[pulsar pasture]

That's why I'm saying i hope it doesn't happen

[kind raft]

Speeds up buffing too because any action counts

You can attack potion and that could proc

The proposal on the table is to increase proc rates if the action is to remove status

[covert turret]

Need more dungeon access in beta to really test it more and I really wish they'd have left a tower always in sight like the last beta

[kind raft]

Add mirror of knight411

His party has 2-3

[covert turret]

Word

Thanks

🍻

[kind raft]

I think I’d actually run horde boss as base realm and snapshot zerk in to make the rest of the run brainless

Sweep dmg still a little lackluster to clear one shot threshold for boss even if we ignore deity / mammon

[hard sandal]

Yes, of course

The FYC was Masterforged when I did it

Amity is 50% buff duration, I used it in the higher parts of the tower, +40% crit DMG was the one I used in lower parts

I have yet to find better boots, yes

[blissful thistle]

@hard sandal thx and what skills did you use? and pet? ^^

[hard sandal]

For pet I used Chimera in the lower floors, and Phoenix in the upper ones, for skills I used mainly Woo turn 1 and depending on the situation i'd go for buffs/hits or play extra defensive (even more against very high floors arisen gods) by using elemental facade or golem's. My main point of dmg was either Omnistrike III and Osmostrike III

Ward of light was also used to regain mana if I was running low and the trade was net possitive, otherwise I would seek alternatives such as trying to kill a monster or restart. (I did restart 2 times)

[kind raft]

Polite request to take build chatter to a diff channel 🙏

[blissful thistle]

@hard sandal k crazy ill give it a try

[blissful thistle]

yeah sorry ^^

[kind raft]

Moar beta tests plz

Specifically avidity for raids, ultima strikes etc if anyone has a mirror and time

[hard sandal]

I'll ask for a mirror on the beta to try and do towers with RS and see how it goes

[kind raft]

Also make sure you have items in hand for mirror

Not in keep

Keep items don’t move

[hard sandal]

I never use keep, don't worry

[young scaffold]

also whats in blacksmith doesn't move. had somethign cooking i wanted to test =x

[hard sandal]

Got nothing upgrading for now also 😂

[keen obsidian]

what happened to you guys, we got more comments in the beo channel now

nothing new happening?

[latent cobalt]

My biggest gripe, and one of the reasons I I get so extremely frustrated as Realm, is that there no way to clear the floors as fast as a Heretic/Deity who use three buffs and hit for large amounts on all mobs.

I'm still unsure Avidity makes up for the difference is dungeon horde clearing. Which puts us all behind in the end game aspects.

Why does NF believe that RS shouldn't have such skills? Instead of giving other classes a similar skill, they're adding all these mechanics that will simply create more uncertainty.

With all due respect, NF has done some great things, and the team are a bunch of stand up people, but why is this the route that's been chosen. We really need more skill versatility for the class. (<- Changes)

Im not here to attack anyone, simply provide feedback on the current changes.

Phew, sorry. Needed to get that out.

[keen obsidian]

aoe skills being limited is not a RS problem, most people revert back to t7 spec's. That being said, a ara vesta / chained shield like 2 target cleave on a RS celestial would be nice

[blissful thistle]

maybe it also would be nice if C-Classes would be that expensive, surely a Realm Dorado would be able to make good use of a Chained shield i guess.

[keen obsidian]

i still love the idea of THE "crit based single target assassin"-like class getting a skill that deals a single target hit and the overkill damage gets transferred and deals damage to that target

[hard sandal]

An overkill damage skill or passive might be nice in a focused single-target damage class like RS tbh, it's a good idea

[barren geyser]

Do people really have problems with RS horde? I didn't have a issue after hitting level 10 t10 gear

[keen obsidian]

the expectation for most horde dungeons these days is doing it in boost gear

i dont think people have problems doing em in their best gear

[barren geyser]

Oh so people complain not doing it in some shit gear 🤣

[keen obsidian]

the complaining i often heard is "look at heretic doing it in bad gear, i want that too"

[barren geyser]

If all classes can do everything then nothing is really unique

[keen obsidian]

i dont disagree

[barren geyser]

Like we have no problem doing horde mode. But its silly saying we can't do horde mode practically naked.

[blissful thistle]

yeah as asc lvl 20 realm with zwei-fencer its totally ok to do horde ^^

[barren geyser]

I've been a t10 for almost 25 days and not seeing much issue anywhere in game for RS. Maybe debuff stuff or seeing how a summoner can do single target content better than a RS but that speaks more on how broken the other class is with near zero investment

[blissful thistle]

true, we are not underpowered, others are more likely just overpowered ^^

[dark ridge]

My poor build. Used to be 71k with 5x prom

5x prom cut all the way to 33k

[hard sandal]

I'll share my view comparing it to yours:

1. As I think about it, (Not trying to start a war between mage/melee), Mage supremacy rules, Deity + Heretic (and now GS is in the roster) have gotten massive ammounts of power through their high magic stats and easier to farm gear, on top of more diversity of skills and playstyle.

To back this up why were people saying then that Deity Ursa was so bad if it was only the melee counterpart of Deity Ara? Yes there were a few changes, but the worse part is that it was melee

2. Yeah, I am still unsure if avidity will allow to RS actively and consistently overcome it's difficulties on Horde clearing, only time will tell

3. I said the same, as I see it, there's no reason why RS shouldn't get a thematicall multi-target skill, after the atrocities they've done to Celestial Nyx and also RS, while making a change and still not fixing them the difficulties that RS already had

4. Yes, NF is made out of a team of people that can have different opinions than mine and I respect it. They have done a lot of great things and are continuing to do so!

[stark hound]

About point 2, if you are unsure, feel free to test it in the beta, that’s what it is for after all

[kind raft]

This is actually counter to the purpose of the balance patch which is every class should be able to do everything sufficiently with a certain margin… this isn’t an mmo in the traditional sense, your main class shouldn’t be gated out of different content just because it doesn’t fit the common rpg stereotype

[kind raft]

It’s not silly if you’re running thousands of dungeons to farm, and another class is doing it easier. At 10/11 no one’s doing dungeons in dps gear… what’s the point? So “shit” gear is in fact standard gear.

Lastly the issue with aoe is endgame content tends to be aoe oriented

Towers is aoe, horde mode is aoe

[wicked crater]

it's fine if things are better or worse than others. it's not fine if things are better or worse than others at core content at a factor of like.. 4x

[kind raft]

Also tbh, towers isn’t an issue for 250/30+ with chained shield

What a bunch of us are trying to do is to make that content’s gap with other classes way smaller (heretic av2 and gilga cs) for earlier t10 realms

[marsh belfry]

^ that

The issue in towers isn't realms at 250 with 40+ ascensions that can hit 250k ward

[kind raft]

The people who wrote that 4 points to odie actually all don’t benefit from a better aoe for towers because we’ve already figured it out via gear / ascensions / another class

[marsh belfry]

It's the fresh realms that are suffering the most with a lack of av2/cs equivalent

[kind raft]

So if 225-250 up to asc 30 realms are happy

No skin off my back tbh

Just know that you’re 40-50% slower than a comparable caster or gilga

And if you’re ok with “yeah realm just should be slower coz it’s meant to be single target” then cool 👌

20 years of rpg stereotypes are hard to break after all

[kind raft]

I’d be willing to bet your perspective will change with another 25 days in the class

Especially if you have kingdom mates / friend who are also fresh t10 as casters

Because this is the reality today:

https://www.reddit.com/r/OrnaRPG/comments/11tyi71/pov_from_t11_what_endgame_class_should_i_pick_in/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=2&utm_term=1

[barren geyser]

Not really as I'll have my celestial weapon and probably working on my 1h version after that. Got a bric offhand for aoe as well so this avidity is only going to make it feel better

[kind raft]

Happy for you tbh

[keen obsidian]

this has also been fixed in many games that require the "single target rogue" class to be self sufficient. Overkill spreads to other enemies is one way, WoW does Strikes up to 5 nearby targets for Physical damage, and causes your single target attacks to also strike up to 4 additional nearby enemies for 50% of normal damage for 10 sec.

[kind raft]

I’d love splash

[keen obsidian]

i think "players" in general are slow to adapt to the increase of horde fights ever since they've been introduced tbh

we don't have many aoe tools in general

look at debuffs, there is no aoe miasma adjacent skill

casters have been given the best tools, which is fine, "fire goes aoe boom" makes more sense than "dagger goes aoe boom"

[kind raft]

Everything you’ve talked about here has to do with dps gear btw which matters for raids… when you need to farm a billion orns, that’s when farm gear kicks in

[barren geyser]

Or simply on a multi strike attack that hits for examples 4 times. If the 3rd hit kills the target 4th should just be applied to another mob. Or if it's the 1st that kills it the other 3 applies to other mobs could be a easier solution.

[keen obsidian]

but in a game state that needs all classes to be self sufficient in all content, we need every class have an option build into them

[kind raft]

There are so many mechanics

On crit kill chance splash

But odie said not now

Big Womp

[keen obsidian]

we already have ara vesta and chained shield

making ara chained dagger stab

is a possibility

[kind raft]

Super end game realms are doing towers with chained shield and av2

[keen obsidian]

or call it double strafe for a bow

[wicked crater]

the number of aoe skills should be expanded, i'm not sure why the restraint

[kind raft]

Just to give you an idea

How absurd the situation is

[wicked crater]

aoe is so necessary for so much of the game and it hasn't been any less prevalent, just more-so due to towers

[keen obsidian]

solutions to horde fights is still at release levels of "wow its a horde fight pog"

[wicked crater]

but the number of aoe skills has expanded by 2 over the past few.. months? with not many existing at all

[barren geyser]

Also isn't chain crit extended in endless dungeons our farm upgrade?

[keen obsidian]

but now its just way more horde fights (which is fine, i think horde battles are more engaging)

just wait until we get a "patchwork" fight

[wicked crater]

no. mana issues, no aoe skills can crit

[kind raft]

Yeah so mages can farm orns 3 mins at a time and realms have to sit there for 30 mins to do endless 🙂

[wicked crater]

re:endless.. uncertain. i don't see corvus being any significant upgrade (if at all) over base there

[kind raft]

Potting is dangerous in endless

[wicked crater]

corvus loses passives. it's not a strict gain

[latent cobalt]

This is my point, yes. Thank you

[keen obsidian]

what will you do when its a 4 target raid fight

[wicked crater]

switch class

[kind raft]

Lol look at realms vs the summoner raid

[barren geyser]

But we can go further in endless so it'll make for it. Also you have mana issues with Oracle with 2x5% max mana recovered?

[kind raft]

Would love a kill counter

[latent cobalt]

Realm isn't even the best single target raid anymore

[kind raft]

Dude no one uses mana amity man

It’s accessory amity or stay home

[wicked crater]

there are many ways to ""fix"" realm that has an opportunity cost that no other classline has to suffer

[barren geyser]

If you want to play a caster go play it 🤣 otherwise the difference is what makes the class what it is. If all classes can do everything easy what's the point?

[wicked crater]

that's the crux of.. everything

[kind raft]

What’s the point of what?

That’d be great?

[barren geyser]

Point of even playing

[kind raft]

People can play the style they want and not be hindered?

[keen obsidian]

as a beo only player, let me tell you about the suffering of killing a specific enemy in a horde battle

[barren geyser]

If it's so easy you fall asleep it has no point

[kind raft]

It’s not about easy

[wicked crater]

If all classes can do everything easy what's the point?
why is this continuously brought up? 😅

[kind raft]

It’s about being the same as another class

[cold vine]

it's an easy, low-tier cope

[kind raft]

If you wanna fight with one hand tied behind your back

[marsh belfry]

Classes doing everything easy isn't the point of the argument.

Running towers (that are already really long for a vast majority of the playerbase) shouldn't be artificially longer for realm because they lack a skill to compete with AV2 and CS

[kind raft]

By all means go for it

[keen obsidian]

its a fair point tbh. some classes should be better at something than others, but no classes should be locked out of content

[wicked crater]

are people saying that absolutely everything should be easy? i don't see that.

is that message meant to be a fair counterpoint to something that was said?

[kind raft]

The point was never easy

The point was make it balanced across classes

In fact game will get harder later

The mob buff got pushed

But will prob come

[wicked crater]

what's the point being made? "something that wasn't said should be the case shouldn't be the case?" 😬

[barren geyser]

I don't get pass 150 in endless yet but can still make 15m orns in a hour with terrible farm gear and no accessories amity. I'm not sure what others are having issues with

[wicked crater]

hey fux, how much were you saying you made in an hour the other day?

[kind raft]

Respectfully, 15 mil is absolutely a rounding error

15 mil takes me 6 minutes

[keen obsidian]

the point is, if one class is the best at single target and one class is best at horde and one class is the best at staying alive, thats fine. If one class is the best at all of them, thats not fine.

[kind raft]

While watching tv

Doing a few hard boss or horde boss

[wicked crater]

realistically this discussion is a matter of standards. I believe as you progress through the tier and experience (for yourself, or via others) the differences in classlines, standards and expectations change. they also tend to change as ascensions and difficult content become more relevant, and that isn't the case to begin with

[keen obsidian]

in a game that does not rely on party play at all, locking a class out of some options is not cool thou

[wicked crater]

as an early T10 15mil/hour is certainly fine. fast forward a few dozen levels, and a few dozen ascensions, it's ~nothing

[cold vine]

caveat: best should be a small multiplier, e.g. 1.5x.
not 5x or 10x.

[wicked crater]

^

[kind raft]

Once again I’d like to see how you feel in 25 days 🙂

[keen obsidian]

yea no doubt. In a game that is multiplayer focused, i would not have a problem with a class being 5x better than others

easiest example is healing in mmo's. A priest is always better at it than a thief

thats fine, nobody expects the thief to be healing

but thats not how this game works. so balance needs to be closer for those things

[cold vine]

Orna is primarily a single player game, and always has been. Though it has multiplayer now, I wouldn't particularly expect NF to abandon their core game vision to make it all about parties (or, more about parties). 🤷‍♂️

[latent cobalt]

It's basically gatekeeping these classes from progressing as fast. That's what it is.

[keen obsidian]

a raid boss that needs a coordinated party would be lit thou, but i think that dream died with summoners requiring party slots

[wicked crater]

bit unfortunate that parties tends to blow sp out of the water for a lot of things, but yeah. ideally it's still a single player game

[keen obsidian]

a good question would be: should the speed clear horde meta be shifted more towards current RS level or should the current RS level be shifted more towards the top of the list

idk if "click sweep 22/25 times" is the ideal gameplay

but thats what we arrived at

[wicked crater]

we're long past the point where the top end can be reduced

[keen obsidian]

by bloating hp numbers, yes

but there are different ways

[wicked crater]

stop players from being able to one button every floor while gaining max rewards and tell me folks won't start a war

[wicked crater]

uh, still probably not lol

besides, that's the same thing with more effort

[keen obsidian]

make a floor full of mirrors, if you just sweep into it you fall over dead

thats like, a dumb idea

but mechanics can be implemented that makes it more than 25 sweeps

[wicked crater]

and apply that to what? does that suit the game? I get your point in that "there are ways to do it" but the end result is the same with varying amounts of effort

I don't see the general population being dandy with one button-ing a floor being gone

hell, folks aren't alright with utlima or prometheus hands being toned down

[keen obsidian]

its just a discussion of "is the fun in the reward screen" as in loot boxes, or is the fun "in the combat itself" as in dark souls

both can exist in the same game btw

[kind raft]

I have a lot of fun smashing 1 button over and over again

[keen obsidian]

you can have horde dungeons by 25 sweeps

and you can have challenging content

i am well aware of the "wow it takes 15 seconds longer to smash my piñata i hate you" problem

path of exile is working on fixing it but the players get mad every time

but that is not a topic for the RS beta changes i guess

[wicked crater]

nor the beta changes, arguably

[keen obsidian]

but yea, adding a aoe option for RS shouldnt be out of reach

even if its just 2 target cleave like Ara Vesta

[elfin hound]

Not to jump in here. But I want to add my two pieces. At the end of the day I am happy to have casters just be better at horde. Maybe they save a few minutes. Cool, not a problem for me. I simply want an option to compete with their income. Cause at the end of the day, that’s what we are talking about. Access to matterials and orns. In my opinion it is a huge outlier that casters just get more of that doing the same thing I do. Simply because they have access to a better skill and blue lining is just safer so completion rate is higher

Worth noting that with avidity not being bugged in horde and maybe seeing a boost there, I think the gap will be significantly closed

[kind raft]

I’m gonna math some stuff and post something monday for towers as realm specifically

[keen obsidian]

damn pulling out the math

[wicked crater]

you? math?

[keen obsidian]

Arithmetician class when

like in final fantasy tactics

[kind raft]

🤡

[keen obsidian]

||https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfqjbFlB2dM||

the numbers dont lie and they spell disaster for ~~you ~~ Realmshifter at ~~sacrifice ~~ horde encounters

[blissful thistle]

maybe we shouldnt talk about how to make Realm better, we should talk about making every other class equivalent bad as realm now. 🤣

[covert turret]

I don't see why chained shield can't be adjusted to work at full capacity with both the bastille and dorado. This wouldn't give the other spiked shields to realm but would let dorado use it without penalty which wouldn't be adding another aoe skill since apparently that isn't the direction NF wants to go.

I think this would be a relatively fair compromise and it would work with avidity pretty well but not nearly as well as a full aoe

[kind raft]

Bastille starts off at lower ward so dmg is actually lower

[covert turret]

i don't know what the actual non-gilga penalty is on SS skills but it could be built into so it was comparable. Like maybe just reduce the penalty a bit for dorado so damage output is comparable

Gilga dps would still increase as ward went up but dorado could at least start swinging out the gate with reasonable dps

There's space to work with dorado and chained shield to create some synergy, so I don't see why it couldn't be explored a bit

[wicked crater]

penalty is 0.5x

[kind raft]

@stark hound has the math behind chained shield / bastille etc