#Need help with approaching in neutral keep getting 2-2 in bracket

132 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

weary aspen
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Who are you requesting?
Preferably a joker coach but is a issue with fundamentals so any coach

What is your time zone?
PST

What specifically do you need help with?
I struggle with approaching my opponent and tend to camp because I don't know how to approach. I rely on my shield to much in close quarter situations and struggle with shield pressure. I also rely on gun to much in disadvantage.

When are you typically available?
Almost all time this week except thanksgiving

**How long have you been playing the game for? **
I have playing the game since it came out. Only started to go to tournaments this year.

**Can I VC? **
Yes.

honest patio
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I got you

vast python
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Id love to play them too Ngl

honest patio
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If you want, you can handle it

weary aspen
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Hey

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I can vc soon if you want

vast python
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I prefer not to

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@weary aspen

weary aspen
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Yep

vast python
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You on?

weary aspen
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No

vast python
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Alr

karmic orbit
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"I rely on my shield to much in close quarter situations and struggle with shield pressure"

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I would argue this isn't neutral, but potentially disadvantage, as well as defensive options.

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If you have to shield something, with the exception of gameplay where shielding is intentional to gain a result (E.G. parrying hits), it usually implies something has gone wrong, E.G. you didn't space correctly and are taking hits, or you did something sloppy and are trying to defend yourself against a punish.

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I assume by use of guns you mean aerial usage rather than grounded, as aerial usage is common to reduce aerial intercepts. If that's the case, it might suggest your landing is problematic and you need to learn other techniques (such as fastfall neutral airdodge, return to ledge, wavelanding, etc).

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Is the shielding against certain characters (E.G. projectile users), or all of them?

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If it's against all of them, I'd suggest something is going wrong. Maybe the more experienced coaches will disagree with me, but I'm of the opinion Joker's primary defensive advantage is his small, hard-to-hit body size and mobility. Evasion should be your first port of call for defense, as it keeps your options open (E.G. if you shorthop back, you can do an aerial, or do a stall, or double hop, or do nothing, or fastfall, etc). Shielding limits you to your out-of-shield (oos) options, which for some characters is dismal or beaten out easily.

weary aspen
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Yeah I know but I was mainly focusing on the approching part and the sheild and disadvantage were just tacked on

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And also I do understand those things in theory but struggle with it in practice

karmic orbit
karmic orbit
weary aspen
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It probably an issue of spacing

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I ether to far and cannot punnish the wiff

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Or too close and get hit

karmic orbit
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Work out which attack has the most reach with a decent speed.

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Some characters have multiple, some only have one.

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If it has a disjointed hitbox, bonus points.

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We're obviously ignoring his projectile, guns, and up-B tether grab, because I'd argue those are zoning tools (you can still use them as a sort of spacer but that isn't optimal).

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If you can't outspace someone, E.G. they're a swordie who outranges you

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Then you need to start baiting out their attacks

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Run in, run back
Jump in, jump back
Jump in, jump past
Run in, jump past
Etc

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Then it is a case of working out your best whiff punish from that bait. Just remember you can't repeat the same bait approaches twice; a lot of good players adapt quickly (the awful ones will never cotton on).

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Pay attention to how they react when you bait them.

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If you run up, do they:

  • Shield?
  • Jump?
  • Ground attack? (which type?)
  • Run away?
  • Spot dodge?
  • Jump + air dodge?
  • Aerial? (which type?)
  • Counter?
  • Use a special? (which one?)
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Or the very rare one: just stand there?

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How they react the first time informs how you should be approaching the second time. It shows you what they fear. If they shield, they fear an attack. If they spot dodge, they fear grab. If they attack, they're trying to rush you out before you can attack. If they run away, they fear you getting close (zoner?). If they aerial, they think you're going to aerial/jump. Counter? They're expecting an attack (dash or smash).

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So on and so forth.

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As Joker you have a runspeed of 2.06, which is really good. Duck Hunt has a run speed of 1.793, which is already considered a fast ground speed.

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Your airspeed of 1.1 means you move slower in the air than some characters, so your biggest mobility strength is your groundspeed.

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For contrast Sonic's ground speed is a whopping 3.85, and airspeed a fairly high 1.208.

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If you're jumping a lot with the gun aerials, it means you're not taking full advantage of your groundspeed.

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I would also look up which attack is the fastest, so you can approach and do quick hits as well as spaced ones.

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(Other than light jab, which is usually always the fastest but has almost no real power)

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Make use of baits and spacing to avoid the hits and create openings.

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I think Joker also low profiles a lot of things when running?

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So you might have to lab out what moves you can low profile when running to know when it is safe for you to do a running approach

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(There might already be a list somewhere, but I haven't looked as my time is limited)

weary aspen
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@vast python just tell me when your open

vast python
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Rn lowk

weary aspen
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Alright

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Setting up

vast python
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Eating

weary aspen
weary aspen
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So not now?

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@vast python

vast python
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Mb

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My mom asked me to help with turkey and ham

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I’m again available in like 10 minutes

weary aspen
vast python
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Alr

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@weary aspen

weary aspen
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Yep

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Seting up

vast python
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Playing elite smash

weary aspen
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56N7B

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1984

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Bros dodging so hard

vast python
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I don’t see that

vast python
weary aspen
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B6N7B

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1984

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I mean you were playing agressive

vast python
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Kinda

weary aspen
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I didn't need to approch

vast python
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Honestly I don’t think you needed a joker coach for this problem

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Probably someone who plays zoners or is just rly good

weary aspen
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I keep getting destroid by my friends

vast python
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Mostly you just have to put yourself out there

weary aspen
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But their kinda pr

vast python
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Ask them how to approach real quick

karmic orbit
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I can potentially refer you on to another higher level coach depending on how it goes.

vast python
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Oh wait… you mean Dell and Mizu?

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But yeah approaching is just kinda finding out what works and why

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Like for example how I approached was I threw pikmin at you and then when you countered I grabbed you

weary aspen
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Yeah i keep doing it

vast python
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Find out how to attack safely

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Honestly like I don’t particularly like how you’re doing it but if it works it works yk

weary aspen
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Do you thing i'm to jummpy

vast python
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Oh

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A little bit yeah

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Also another thing to take into consideration

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Realize enemy’s “cooldowns”

weary aspen
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End lag

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?

vast python
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Like when all my pikmin die I have to take time to get them back up again

vast python
# weary aspen End lag

Yeah but I’ve been playing overwatch and apex for the last couple of days so I thought of cooldowns

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But in this case not rly

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Cuz like my pikmin don’t have endlag they just kinda die

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And then I have to get them back up again

weary aspen
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So your saying i'm not pressing my advantage when you lose pickman

vast python
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Yes

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There is also just a lot of moments where you aren’t pressing an advantage

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So that match I kinda just camped you out a lot and I abused that you only know two ways to approach, that being run up counter and dash attack

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Also you gave up a lot of stage control every time I put a pikmin on you

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So with that first one just comes with experience and learning all your different options to approach like a spaced bair, landing fair 1, gun, d tilt, run up grab, etc. you don’t have to make sure it’s completely safe 100% of the time but make sure you play right 90% of the time. This does just come with experimenting and mu knowledge and stuff.

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With the pikmin just don’t run away to get meter, I can just recall the pikmin and get stage control

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That’s just kinda being aware of your opponent’s options

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Also comes w experience

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That was rly good

weary aspen
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I guess my problem was me running away

vast python
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Yes

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You need to not do that

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Unless they are kazuya

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But mostly try to stay out of immediate range of them

weary aspen
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I think one more match

vast python
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Oh ok

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Ggs

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Last thing bc I forgot like 3 times

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You need to approach with arsene

weary aspen
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I was kinda auto piloting this match

vast python
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Ahh ok

vast python
flat ravine
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@vast python 4C97D Pass: 5

vast python
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Alr

torpid tendon
vast python
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😭

weary aspen
flat ravine