Who are you requesting?
any type of coach I like lucas/ ness
What is your time zone?
NA EST
What specifically do you need help with?
Need help with movement, combos, game sense, juat overall
When are you typically available?
around all day
How long have you been playing the game for?
like two weeks
Can I VC?
YES
#looking for a coach in general to take me from beginner to god tier
noble flame
astral beacon
Each coach has their strengths and weaknesses, so it is best to learn from a variety. I can take you from beginner to intermediate, and the other coaches can take you from intermediate to advanced.
noble flame
im down with anything i just want to learn and get better and hopefully get on a competitive level
astral beacon
when could u give me some tipa?
I can give tips now if you want
Although we'd need to do an assessment match first
astral beacon
Lemme convert that time real quick
Yeah 2 PM est for me should be fine (7PM my time)
If other coaches want to join in, feel free to
Ping me at the time tomorrow as I'll probably forget due to how busy I can be
noble flame
ok sounds good
random cradle
Lemme convert that time real quick
I could maybe join, I main Ness and can show some tricks and oki setups and generally how to use his tools
I say maybe because I'm having computer issues
astral beacon
I could maybe join, I main Ness and can show some tricks and oki setups and gene...
If you main Ness then chances are you'll be more specialist than me. That said, as beginners coach I usually bring a player up to basics first (boring stuff like shielding, hopping, initial dash vs run, that sort of thing), where the specialist then takes over and teaches the specifics. Otherwise what happens is you'll be talking about yo-yo ledge traps and they'll be struggling with the concept of a tilt.
noble flame
I could maybe join, I main Ness and can show some tricks and oki setups and gene...
I mostly use Lucas but I’ve hit a wall and want to try ness more
noble flame
If you main Ness then chances are you'll be more specialist than me. That said, ...
We can go over the basics
astral beacon
I'll be with you in maybe about 20 mins or so
noble flame
im ready whenever
astral beacon
im ready whenever
K
astral beacon
im ready whenever
N77DJ / 11
noble flame
one sec
astral beacon
I will be assessing you using Ganon, then Captain Falcon
Use any and all methods and techniques you deem fit
Please ensure the Stage Selection (after you join) is set to 'true random', which is the Smash Ball looking logo in the top left under stage selection
Stages are set to legal tourney stages so the stage selection shouldn't be an issue
astral beacon
We'll soon find out
Okay, so your Lucas isn't terrible, you seemed to have some idea of the moves you wanted to do and I'd say you're beyond the beginner portions
Almost got me a number of times
I'll need to use another character to determine where this needs to go but I think you'd be fine learning directly from Cameroni
noble flame
I sometimes find it hard like after getting hit how to recover better bc it’s different from other games I’ve played
astral beacon
That's fine, I'm continuing the assessment
I'm trying to work out what points of improvement I need to recommend
noble flame
Okay
astral beacon
I don't think I saw a lot of shielding
So I'm going to test for that
Good ledge guarding
noble flame
Tyyy
astral beacon
Ignore my first stock, no jump
noble flame
Yeah I don’t shield a lot
astral beacon
Your playstyle is still pretty good, your mobility is excellent
noble flame
It’s like I get scared to dodge bc I get rid of my recovery
astral beacon
Okay, so your stage selection is currently set to random omega
It'll need to be set to true random
Otherwise we will just get flat stages, and FD only really makes up 1 of the 7 legal stages
noble flame
Which one is that
astral beacon
Go into stage selection which is the box in the bottom with the [ ? ]
And then you'll see a list of stages
Pick the most top-left furthest option
noble flame
So just random
astral beacon
So just random
astral beacon
I have a ruleset in place
Which narrows it to legal stages
So it'll be legal randoms
noble flame
Ok
astral beacon
I just enable selection if someone needs specific stage practice
If we resume.
My Lucas is awful, but my Ness is better
noble flame
Okay no worries
astral beacon
I think this match
We should practice some shielding, spot dodges, roll dodges, air dodges
So no fighting
So, shoulder buttons shield
If you hold shield it depletes
If it gets smaller, you risk being shield poked
So you have to use shield shuffling
Hold both shield buttons and move the analogue stick
No no
Both shield buttons
noble flame
I only have one ?
astral beacon
So both left and right shield button if they're set
Oh?
In that case you can only really safely do shuffle up and down
And down just spot dodges
You'll need double shield buttons for full shuffle but that's a player choice
Hold shield, press left or right to roll dodge
Hold shield, and press down to spot dodge
Every time you dodge, the dodges get a bit slower
And take time to regenerate
Jump, and press the shield button to neutral air dodge
Neutral air dodge maintains your momentum
I can't demo the fastfall neutral airdodge with Ness
But it would maintain the momentum if it worked here
noble flame
Like that?
astral beacon
Normally you fastfall first
Then neutral air dodge
Its a type of landing option
Now
Jump, press shield + direction to do a directional air dodge
Does diagonal too
Diag has less momentum than horizontal
Spot dodges are good for avoiding grabs
Shields for blocking attacks
Air dodges for avoiding aerial hits (but use sparingly)
Directional air dodges as a recovery mix-up to ledge (you might have seen my Ness do it)
Ness and Lucas air dodges have a lot of air time compared to most air dodges
Now if you flick shield off during a hit and time it within 4 frames
You'll get a shield parry
noble flame
Okay
astral beacon
Which preserves the shield and allows you to act out of shield faster
So light jab me until I demo a shield parry
That sound
noble flame
Mhm
astral beacon
Indicates a successful parry
noble flame
Ok
astral beacon
Okay, so that's the basics of defensive play
There's more to it like shorthopping and fullhopping
But that covers what I notice you weren't using
noble flame
Ok ok
noble flame
Ok
astral beacon
Okay, so I notice you weren't using PSI magnet offensively or defensively
PSI magnet has a hitbox, so you can use it like an aerial (although Ness' PSI magnet is easier than Lucas, depending on opinion)
noble flame
It’s just bc it’s a lil worse than ness I don’t really use it
astral beacon
You can also use it to absorb energy projectiles
noble flame
Yeah
astral beacon
Like PK lighting, for example, or PK fire
noble flame
Yeah
astral beacon
Also, tip
If you hit the head ball of Ness' PK lightning (does not apply to Lucas'), it'll destroy the lightning
But I won't make that part easy and do S turns etc
noble flame
Ok
astral beacon
Your Lucas isn't too bad actually. I can't do them but Lucas has the power of z-air strings.
Do you know what a z-air is?
astral beacon
That's probably what it is called, yes
noble flame
Bc I can’t do that
astral beacon
Oh?
noble flame
I asked a Lucas main coach to help me with them and he said that it’s too early for me
astral beacon
Was it Deity by any chance?
noble flame
I’m trying to get good at other things but I feel like I need to do djcz to get through that wall
Ofc I’m still new and need to learn other stuff with Lucas but I want to learn that
astral beacon
Lucas z-air is a potent part of his capabilities and gives him an edge over Ness because it can outrange various Ness moves
I will try to demo, but I'll be honest, I'm not very good at it myself, I'm more a Ness guy than a Lucas one
astral beacon
So my forward left shoulder button is grab
And my right is jump
So you want to manual shorthop first
Then press grab
Tell you what
Why don't we both practice it in this match
Make it z-airs mainly
astral beacon
Whichever version you want to try
noble flame
Ok
astral beacon
I'm just going to be doing basic z-air as Lucas isn't my main
Okay, lets do a normal match
noble flame
Ok
astral beacon
Lets see if I can show the edge guarding stuff or if I'll mess it up
That unfortunate edge guarding took your stock
noble flame
Yeah lol
astral beacon
I also should have said 'ledge guarding' for what I meant
Not bad, not bad. I'm too used to Ness.
I keep trying to b-air.
noble flame
Yeah
astral beacon
BRB toilet
noble flame
Ok
astral beacon
I'm back
noble flame
Ok
astral beacon
Be careful of mashing
And consider if an attack will hit
Conditioning is one thing
Mashing another
noble flame
Okay
astral beacon
Only throw out attacks that serve a purpose
Okay so I used every defensive option against your PK freeze
I don't know if you noticed
I used spot dodge, air dodge, shield shuffle
noble flame
Yeah I did
astral beacon
Just demo'ing how defensive options can save your bacon
noble flame
Yeah
astral beacon
Also if a player adapts to your edge guarding like that
Red flag it is too predictable and you need to use something else
noble flame
Ok
astral beacon
Shame my PK lightning launch wasn't as powerful as Ness one but eh, what can I do
Oops
noble flame
lol
astral beacon
Was expecting it to hit the ground
You did better when you didn't over-rely on the PK freeze
noble flame
Yeah
noble flame
Huh
astral beacon
Manic, high intensity
noble flame
Oh
astral beacon
Fake kill screen, booo
noble flame
lol
astral beacon
Okay, Lucas' lack of an actual bair that's more like a dair is driving me nuts
Time for some cheese
Cheeeeesseeeee
noble flame
Nice
astral beacon
Also wiggle to escape from Kirby's mouth
noble flame
Ok
astral beacon
It's like grab
Okay so I notice you're always using the same ledge getup option
Took me a while to notice embarassingly on my part, but I was focused on the other stuff
noble flame
Idk how to
noble flame
Ok
astral beacon
I mean, officially there's 6
If we start a match and then I can demo
No fighting
I'll just show
noble flame
Ok
astral beacon
Options are:
- Neutral getup
- Attack getup
- Roll on
- Jump getup
- Driftback
- Dropdown
- A mixup from either driftback or dropdown
Neutral getup: in with the stick
Attack getup: Attack button (A or B)
Roll on: shield button
Jump getup: jump button
Driftback: away from the ledge
Dropdown: down from the ledge
Try each one.
So whilst on ledge
Press those buttons
So when grabbing ledge
Press shield
Nothing else
So grab the ledge first
noble flame
Too advanced ggs
astral beacon
Lemme change the gamemode
Unlimited stocks for 5 mins
So practice to your hearts content
Try the jump button on ledge
So "towards" and "away"
Means towards stage and away from stage
And refers to your left stick
Driftback is away from stage
Dropdown - the hardest - is down
Each one does something different
When you grab ledge you get something known as "i-frames"
It's temporary
And how long it lasts for is determined by your damage percent
Lasts for roughly a second on average
When you do an attack getup
You also get i-frames during the initial part of the attack
The i can stand for either 'invincibility' or 'intangibility'
In this case it means invincibility
Invincible objects can still be hit
noble flame
Okwy
astral beacon
(I.E. things blow up on them)
Intangible have no hitbox and so things "pass through"
Spot dodge gives you intangibility frames
noble flame
Ok
astral beacon
Difference isn't too important yet but helps to know what it means
Intangible frames can beat out things like Final Smashes
Or Sonic's homing attack
noble flame
Okay
noble flame
What do you think about me trying out ness ?
astral beacon
Go for it. I think you'll find him easier to pick up, but he's less technically deep than Lucas.
noble flame
Hmmm ok
astral beacon
I thought you were going to switch
astral beacon
You can press B to back out of the arena match if you haven't pressed A
noble flame
I never played ness tho
astral beacon
I'm gunna go randoms
My Kirby is killing a bit too much
So one of my basic Ness combos is PK fire->f-air
Which can lead to PK fire->f-air(repeat)->PK Lightning
noble flame
Okay
astral beacon
So Inkling's projectiles count as physical
So PSI magnet won't work on them
Bat will
noble flame
lol
noble flame
Ggs
astral beacon
@random cradle All yours my guy
Good Lucas, with some refinement it'll be top tier stuff.
noble flame
Thank u mannn hopefully
random cradle
Thank u mannn hopefully
I'm available today at midnight cst and tomorrow before 3pm cst
if you want any ness specific help
noble flame
ill lyk
noble flame
idk if i wanna do ness yet
astral beacon
idk if i wanna do ness yet
Understandable. If you're wanting to apply my Ness tactics (which are fairly basic), I can go over the combo techniques I use. They're unsophisticated and straight forward to learn, and you can build better strats off of them. I noticed you did a good job making use of PK Fire->f-air by converting the f-air into d-air for a spike kill, which was smooth.
Absolutely basic Ness combos/techniques I use:
PK Fire->f-air (works best if the opponent tends to jump out of PK fire or has a large hurtbox like KKR; the smaller their hurtbox, the later you want to start the fair to give the best odds of catching them)
D-throw->f-air, or, far more risky as a mix-up: d-throw->arc'd PK lightning (catches spot dodge); be sure to arc the PK lightning downwards so it clanks with the stage floor to avoid being trapped in end lag for too long, and also the arc protects you from retaliation and catches a lot of spot dodges and other silly nonsense
Out-of-shield (oos) nair; so you can do things like dash shield->nair; oos nair is a good "get off of me option"
oos bair -> this is great if someone does a cross-up on shield option, as bair has a lot of launching power
Run away pivot PK fire (run away in one direction, then side-B input the other direction)
If the opponent is at +120% and you grab them, you nearly always want to backthrow regardless of circumstance. If your back is towards blast zone, you're at ledge and you get a grab, you can kill as early as 100-110%, depending on DI and character weight. The only exception is if you're on top plat on E.G. Battlefield (BF) or Yoshi's Story (YS) and you get a grab, you nearly always want to upthrow if they're below 120%, as even if they don't die, it sets them up for PK lightning snipes.
When doing PK lightning snipes from top plat, it is strongly recommended to press down first so you fall through the top plat, then immediately deploy PK lightning. This does two things: it allows plat to protect you from retaliatory d-air attacks, and it moves you closer to ground protecting you from accidental launches upwards.
You can use a similar trick on non-top plats but the timing is narrow. I can demo in a match and I think even Lucas can take advantage of that trick.
Ledge Traps
In terms of ledge traps, Ness has rudimentry setups, the most common being:
- Yo-yo ledge trap (run up to ledge and face backwards to it, hold down-smash and whilst holding down smash, move yo-yo towards the ledge so it 'hangs off'; the yo-yo hitbox is always active for the duration it is out, and you only need to let go of d-smash if the yo-yo connects to the opponent)
- PK fire ledge trap: when the opponent is grabbing ledge, time a PK fire for when you think they will get up. If they do a jump getup or driftback, they will be caught by PK fire; you then want to use a move to spike them downwards whilst trapped.
- PK lightning ledge trap: you've already seen me demo that move a lot. I'll go into detail as it isn't as braindead as it first appears.
PK lightning ledge traps
I shirk the yo-yo ledge trap meta because I'm of the opinion PK lightning is largely superior for ledge trapping and simultaneous edge guarding compared to yo-yo d-smash coverage. Whilst yo-yo can guarantee a clean kill, PK lightning lingers for longer, is less predictable when controlled correctly. It allows for gimp kills (which can kill at ridiculously early percents), can force the opponent to panic air dodge or mangle their recovery, snuff jumps. At the worst, it can accidentally reset an up-B, but even so it still inflicts damage and often allows for a follow up PK lightning ledge trap. I think you saw me demonstrate every kind of meta with the PK lightning when we were fighting, with the exception of top snipes (top sniping only really happens against large, slow, or bloated characters, or extreme lightweights who are high damage and high up).
The key is knowing what part of the lightning you want to hit. The head will launch, the tail will gimp.
The main features I use are:
- Arc'd PK lightning. So as Ness, you arc PK lightning around the ledge grabbing area. The goal is for the tail to catch and gimp the recovery. During this first phase it will most likely snuff jump. You can repeat it whilst the opponent struggles to cope with it, until they either grab ledge or die. If the tail snags you want to drag the PK lightning down towards the bottom blastzone rather than hitting it into the stage, as the tail will knock the opponent down as well. The reason you normally hit it into the stage is so you exit end lag before the opponent successfully recovers to punish you.
- S curve PK lightning. Naturally your opponent adapts to the arc, and stalls their recovery, or uses a reflector, or similarly. The S curve PK lightning moves towards and then immediately away from the opponent, baiting out their reflector or defensive option. By then curving back (typically in an S shape if you were on left ledge), you can then snipe them from behind, which will launch them upwards ready to be u-air'd (or alternatively, top sniped by PK lightning).
- Direct PK lightning. Your opponent will eventually grow wise to the S curve and just recover directly to stage knowing it won't hit the first time. So you counter that by directly hitting them with PK lightning (such the head of the PK lightning hits). It is a type of conditioning and won't strictly kill. You can at most do this twice before most players will adapt. You then switch back to an S curve variant.
- D curve PK lightning. At some point your opponent will try to recover high and try to 'land' on you. So you can convert an arc'd PK lightning into a D curve where you hit yourself with it. This does three things: if the opponent is ahead of you when you do this, it will most likely kill them. If they're behind you, they'll get hit by the PK lightning. If they dodge that, then the PK lightning will send you to the other side of the stage to safety.
I know you experienced all 4 in our match, including the gimped recovery.
Of the 4, D curve is the most dangerous because if you angle it wrong or the stage is too small, you can accidentally send yourself off.
You always want to D curve towards the stage rather than away. It doesn't matter if it misses, and you shouldn't over-rely on it as opponents can bait it out.
By layering those options, they become mixups of each other and make the seemingly simple PK lightning obnoxiously difficult to predict.
Top sniping uses a variant, but instead you start with direct PK lightning first, then as they adapt, you switch to P curve variant (which is like the top snipe version of the S curve). So you aim the lightning slightly away from the opponent leaving the tail in their path rather than hitting them directly on, and then double back the PK lightning so it hits them from above or the side. It's difficult to explain, but easier to demo.
Only top snipe if they're above the top plat (or in a lot of hitstun), otherwise the end lag runs the risk of you being punished hard.
The opponent has only one valid option to beat Ness PK lightning, and that is to hit the head, which will destroy it. If your opponent tends to do this, then do an O curve so the tail protects the head. As soon as the tail interrupts their attack, you can hit them directly with the head.
astral beacon
Deity tends to be busy and doesn't often take requests.
You might want to consider asking @dim sparrow or @cunning shard if they can offer djcz training.
I would take it up but as I don't main Lucas it isn't something I've learned how to do, so can't advise.
winged raft
<@486714707223248906> can you help me with djcz?
No
winged raft
And Lucas ? In general
You got coached like 2 days ago. Was this insufficient? Answer honestly
winged raft
What Lucas specific help do you need
Djcz you are not ready to implement
Unless you have made significant strides in 2 weeks
And to be frank with you, there's no secret to it
It's just practice
astral beacon
winged raft
No
astral beacon
No?
winged raft
That dude is not ready for djcz
astral beacon
I posted it so he could use the video as a guide to practice with in Training mode.
astral beacon
Oh, what's shff?
winged raft
This is a huge problem with Lucas mains, they focus on tech and then they have no fundamentals because they didn't build the foundation
That is why I will not teach it
Until I feel like I am satisfied with their performance
winged raft
Oh, what's shff?
Short hop fast fall
astral beacon
Welp I just found where the claim about the shorthop macro reducing damage came from.
winged raft
Short hops have always done less damage than full hops
Full hop djcz is like actually useless so idk why it's being brought up
astral beacon
Short hops have always done less damage than full hops
Right, but the video refers to 'easy shorthop aerials' and misleadingly infers macro shorthops reduce damage.
Now I know why I thought that all those years ago. My bad, off topic.
astral beacon
I can't seem to find a decent video on SHFF for reference.
winged raft
Because you don't really need a video to explain it
You short hop and then you fast fall
astral beacon
I got coached over just simple mechanics? Not Lucas
Well, you heard the guy, go practice SHFF.
random cradle
djcz is really difficult consistently even for high level
simple junco
Not for my goat deity
noble flame
Wdym what’s my problem ? You said I need to get used to short hopping and shff all I said was it’s not really a problem for me ?
Like what
My problem is some recovery edge problems
winged raft
djcz is really difficult consistently even for high level
Nah that input is not that hard
It's just shouldn't be your focus
noble flame
So I’m too floaty when I get off or in general
Get hit *
ummm
Ik how to recover ofc but im just in the air too long and make them easier to read me and stuff
And idk how to ledge guard that good
winged raft
Use your floatiness to your advantage
noble flame
And the input for djcz only thing I mess up is the double jump grab but ik that’s not the main focus
noble flame
Use your floatiness to your advantage
How
winged raft
You have good air speed so put distance between your opponent and go to ledge
You don't have to get down ASAP
In fact doing something like uair yo get fast fall out of tumble can frame trap you
winged raft
Ik how to recover ofc but im just in the air too long and make them easier to re...
If you're in tumble and just falling, you're actually harder to read
Because you've not done anything yet
noble flame
Yeah makes sense
winged raft
It's why Lucas players trying to land with dair is so bad
winged raft
You're stuck in that animation for so long and you're not covering much space with it
It's a free punish
winged raft
Would tether help also
It's your best recovery option
random cradle
you gotta learn to break your opponents ankles when falling
noble flame
hmm ok ok
random cradle
other than going to ledge, there's ways to kind of trick your opponent with movement and well thought out air dodging and drifting while falling back down
is what Im saying lol
you don't want to just always go to ledge
if you always go to ledge your opponent can catch on and start to punish you for it
noble flame
yeah
winged raft
It's your best option as Lucas
Like seriously
Your landing options are really bad
Ideally put distance between you and your opponent but ledge is always a pretty good option
noble flame
So what are some good landing options on stage
Just try to be away from them as best as a I can
random cradle
lucas also has good aerial drift that you can use also to bait your opponent while falling
you just have to try to make it look as convincing as possible that you will land in one spot but land where they don't expect
random cradle
you have b reverse side b and down b to quickly change direction last second too