fringe moth
Who are you requesting?
a Lucas coach
What is your time zone?
EST
What specifically do you need help with?
Everything about the game. Fundamentals and really want to get better at doing djcz. Get better at approaching to hit the opponent.
When are you typically available?
Almost all day, all week. Around 3pm to 12pm
How long have you been playing the game for?
3 days
Can I VC?**
Yes
quick mica
You've only been playing for 3 days but you're already worrying about djcz? Do you have strong fighting game fundamentals from earlier entries or other series? Are you comfortable with all the basic mechanics of ult and have good control over your movement in general?
fringe moth
Ummm no but I play a lot of games and I always try to learn stuff early on I used to play brawlhalla but smash is too different
I still need help just overall
fringe moth
But would also like help with Lucas also
zinc patio
Yeah I'm ngl I would not teach you djcz at your level
I would sooner drill shff into your head because that'll have way more utility to you at lower levels
zinc patio
Idk I'm super busy but sometime tmrw maybe
fringe moth
ready whenever
zinc patio
@fringe moth you gotta use pings
I prefer scheduling
I got about an hour tho
What do you want to learn
fringe moth
oh ok
umm more combos i guess its just every combo guide i see is like a lot of advanced stuff and just seems like they always use djcz but also want to learn how to fight it just seems like i get hit a lot and its hard for me to hit others
@zinc patio
zinc patio
Idk what combo guides you're looking at
He has plenty of basic stuff
Most of them involve forward air, neutral air, and up air
Your combo starters require you to be falling when you using the move
As for hitting people, it's something you learn with time
And practice
And getting comforable moving around the stage
fringe moth
its hard to hit people when i try to go for up air bc i have to be in the air and going towards them that i just end up getting hit instead
zinc patio
Well up air is a good combo starter
But it's not a good poking tool
When you're playing the game, you don't wanna be thinking 'I want to this combo so I'm just gonna try to use this opener'
You need to be thinking 'I want to put my opponent in a vulnerable position'
'That was make it easier to open them up and get my combos'
In neutral, when we attack our opponent, we want fast moves that have range
Uair has the speed
But not that range
You have to position yourself so close to your opponent, and so yeah, that means they have plenty of time to hit you for it
fringe moth
so what could i set up to get into the up air when im on the ground or in general
zinc patio
You want to poke at them with moves that have more range
And you want to push them towards the corner
fringe moth
to the edge of the map?
zinc patio
The stage
fringe moth
yeah
zinc patio
This is the final frame of uair, you basically have to be on top of them to hit it
Compare it to fair
That red circle
Has no space where Lucas can get hit , his toes have no hurtboxes
You control that space
That's much more range then uair
So you wanna be poking at them with fair more
And I say poking because that's what you're doing
You trying to annoy them
And make them more defensive
That allows you to get closer to them and start applying pressure
Make them expect forward air
Then take them by suprise with an entirely different option
fringe moth
makes sense would i fair with a short hop most of the time ?
zinc patio
Yes, you almost always want to short hop as Lucas and you usually want to use fair and you're fast falling
fringe moth
so short hop fair and fast fall with it?
zinc patio
Yes, you short hop
As soon as Lucas reaches the top of the jump
You fast fall and forward air
I do it by pressing down on the right stick and forward on the left stick
Much easier to seperate the inputs
fringe moth
fast falling is to get to the ground before them when you poke them?
zinc patio
It decreases the time it takes for you to reach the ground
In Smash when you land with an aerial, the aerial's animation gets canceled for a landing animation
And this animation is almost always shorter than the aerial's animation
What that means, is landing as quickly as possible allows you to act quicker out of the aerial
fringe moth
okay got it. what could i follow up with fair
zinc patio
Depends on strong or weak hit
They both combo, but combo differently
Strong, another fair but do this one as you rise
Weak, jab
Very simple combos to do
fringe moth
could i also fair, into up neutral then up air
zinc patio
Combo routes can change with percent too but for low percents those are good simple bread and butter conversions
Nair to uair is di dependant so not consistently
Fair to nair can work but that is pretty hard to hit
zinc patio
Nair to uair is di dependant so not consistently
Nair to fair works really well though
zinc patio
Fair to nair *can* work but that is pretty hard to hit
This also depends on how quickly they land after the fair, some characters fall faster
A lot of factors can go into a combo but don't even worry about that
Practice the easy stuff
Then as you get more comfortable, add to them or find more routes
fringe moth
okay i will practice that
how can i get hit less? or recover from a hit faster sometimes i just dont know when i can get out of a combo and just keep getting hit
zinc patio
Then as you get more comfortable, add to them or find more routes
For example, if I fast fall after the second fair, then I can extend the combo with ftilt. This takes practice to get the timing down though. But that's a solid 3-hitter. Almost 40%, nothing to scoff at
zinc patio
how can i get hit less? or recover from a hit faster sometimes i just dont know ...
And tbh Lucas doesn't have much to get out of combos
Your options are
Try to double jump away
Try to neutral air dodge
He can't really force landings
He's not good at it
And he has no combo breakers
fringe moth
hmm ok
zinc patio
Always try to get to ledge as Lucas
You almost never want to try land on top of the other person
fringe moth
in ledge? or off stage
zinc patio
Yes, your tether is your best option for grabbing ledge
You know how to turn yourself around in the air?
Your direction air dodge is also one of the best in terms of distance so that's an option too
fringe moth
You know how to turn yourself around in the air?
i dont
zinc patio
Okay this will take some explaining
Actually let me set up my input map for obs, give me like 5 mins
fringe moth
sounds good
zinc patio
Improvised with my ingame map which isn't as nice as an actual controller but it should get the job done
But we have something called turnaround specials, it's when you use a special move to change the direction your character is facing
I slowed the game down to make it easier to see the inputs
But if I down b and roll my stick quickly enough in the direction I want Lucas to face, he will turn to face that direction
It has to be really quick
You can do this in the air
Which means you can always make Lucas face the ledge so he can tether to it
fringe moth
ok yeah i did it
fringe moth
yeah
zinc patio
You can do this with every special except for your up b
fringe moth
that solves a lot of my problems
zinc patio
Like you probably already do it with pk fire it's just not something you think about
And turnaround pk freeze has some uses but it's not anything crazy important
Magnet is though
fringe moth
howcome i see people do two pk thunders in the air? did they patch that
zinc patio
If you bounce off of something you can do a second pk thunder if you input within half a second of bouncing
fringe moth
oh ok i see
i just did it
when you bounce does it also like give you another second jump ?
fringe moth
yeah just asking
i also still play on my joy cons
would that make the djcz timing harder
zinc patio
I wouldn't know never tried it on them
zinc patio
Take like a week to practice
fringe moth
okay so next sunday works?
zinc patio
Maybe
fringe moth
ok well ill practice a lot thank u for ur teachings
fringe moth
hey @zinc patio when i try to djcz with my game cube i mess it up more than the joycons whenever i double jump grab is there a reason for this >
?
zinc patio
Not used to the controller
Pace yourself on gcc
It is a very straining controller for that type of input
sterile quarry
I also only play Lucas how often should I use other characters
No
sterile quarry
Si
fringe moth
Mmm for how long ?
sterile quarry
Until you’re good
fringe moth
Ok
fringe moth
@zinc patio when could we schedule for something
zinc patio
What would you like to go over
fringe moth
umm maybe 1v1 and you could tell me what i need to work on and my bad habits
and need help with my movement
and when would be a good time to learn djcz
@zinc patio
zinc patio
and when would be a good time to learn djcz
When your movement is ironclad, you understand Lucas neutral well and you can shff consistently
zinc patio
umm maybe 1v1 and you could tell me what i need to work on and my bad habits
I can do rn
zinc patio
2X12F
500
fringe moth
I’m in
zinc patio
You should almost never approach with nair
Too much rising aerials
Too much grounded fire
And too much trying to just swing at me without much thought to what's being pressed by you
fringe moth
Hmm okay
zinc patio
Why did you pk thunder
fringe moth
Missclick
zinc patio
For wht
zinc patio
Yeah you need a lot of work
fringe moth
😭
zinc patio
You're choosing a lot of really poor options and it's think it's a mix of 1. you don't know what to do and 2. you don't why you're doing it
Like for example
You were on ledge, I'm close to it
You jump up and over me
That's great, you got past me
But insteaad of safely landing away from me, you decided to try and drift towards me with dair
Which is
A horrible idea
And it got you punished
When you're in a situation like being stuck on ledge, your goal should be getting out of the bad situation
Trying to hit me from an unfavorable situation is gonna end badly 9 times out of 10
The game isn't just about hitting the other person
It's about creating favorable situations
fringe moth
Yeah I do that a lot
zinc patio
And that's why just throwing yourself at me is going so badly
There is no consideration beyond wanting to hit me
Neutral is nuanced
It'll make more sense as you play, but when you do something, it needs to have meaning that goes behind wanting to hit the other person
When I filt, it's because you're at midrange and I'm preemptively covering the space in front of me
If you try to approach, you get hit, if you don't, ftilt is fast enough that it's hard to punish for it
And if you're paying attention it's me telling you I am controlling the space in front of me
That's just an example of what I'm getting at
fringe moth
Yeah makes sense
Should I keep at it with Lucas or what
Sometimes I get demotivated
zinc patio
Play who you like
If you like Lucas play Lucas
It's that simple
No more thought needs to go into it
You can get good with any character
So thinking you're bad with a particular one is a fallacy
What you're experiencing are fundamental problems
They will follow you from character to character to character
fringe moth
Hmmm so I need to get my fundamentals up
zinc patio
Yes
fringe moth
I like ness and Lucas so it’s hard for me to choose
zinc patio
Get comfortable with shff
fringe moth
But I don’t switch on and off
fringe moth
What’s the main reason for that
zinc patio
It's not hard but you gotta take the time to ingrain it into muscle memory
zinc patio
If you short hop fast fall, Lucas' air time is extremely short
fringe moth
It’s just a experience thing
fringe moth
Does bees need too or Lucas needs it more
zinc patio
Because all your stuff comes off of falling aerials
fringe moth
Ness
zinc patio
When someone sees you shff, it makes them start anticipating something from
I was doing it to you
fringe moth
Yeah
zinc patio
Idk if you were paying attention to me tho
fringe moth
I tried to do it sometimes
zinc patio
Does bees need too or Lucas needs it more
Ness is a completely different character
zinc patio
You're too aggressive
Too impatient to try and open me up
So you end throwing really unsafe to me and it all does is create openings for me against you
zinc patio
That's just not how neutral works
Neutral, you gotta create opportunities
By limiting what the other person can do
Back them into a corner, poke at them until they clam up and start playing defensive, bait them into an overextension
zinc patio
Where you do look at on the screen when you're playing
fringe moth
At the other player
zinc patio
Always?
zinc patio
You should always be looking at the other character
fringe moth
Yeah
fringe moth
I watch blucas and regalo
zinc patio
Idk if you'll get much from playing me atp, you're kinda getting walked all over and it's to a degree so I don't really see you picking up much from fighting me
Blucas is
I wouldn't tbh
fringe moth
Yeah
zinc patio
Too much pointless movement
fringe moth
Mmmm
Is it fine for me to also try ness or it wouldn’t be good for me to switch on and off ?
fringe moth
For how long typically
zinc patio
I can play Ness and switch between both because I've been playing Lucas forever
As long as it takes
zinc patio
Lucas
Lucas isn't that hard
But Ness is really easy
Problem with Lucas players
Is they just wanna do technical stuff
When they can't even control the character yet
It's why I'm saying don't watch Blucas
zinc patio
Nah I'm just saying
zinc patio
Bro I already said play who you like
zinc patio
You just use who you like
I like Ness as a character, like that actual character, and that's why I play him
fringe moth
yeah i like both bc they are similar and their moves are cool and they bring out my attention more than other characters