#Maria's House Rules Forum, (Alt Structure stress, bracing, overcharge, + the gear and frames)

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green osprey
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This is a place mostly for explaining my vision about the changes i've done so far (didn't realize it was that popular) and for anyone who wants to talk about it.

Brief overview of my design philosophy regarding these: I generally, ultimatel,y like and enjoy how vanilla lancer players, and broadly, i work towards making the changes so that the game feels "closer" to itself, as it were. I like to make efforts to preserve as much as possible the things that might very well be weird in most contexts or that differentiate Lancer from other games, with as few changes as possible, and an emphasis more on cutting out "Jank" and boring options while preserving the things and moments people tend to enjoy the most.

  • Structure and Stress I've talked about before already, but broadly, Structure was Too volatile and punishing, and Stress was something that your build either never ever ever cared about, or that killed you immediately, and together, enabled volatile death loops that punished non-agressive options.
  • Overchargs changes were not because of overcharge itself, but because of the Overcharge loop gameplay. Changes to overcharge were done to kill the ease and ability to Over-charge-stabilize and benefit from all the potent danger zone combos before stabilizing, and to also make sure that Danger Zone builds had to actually think about how they get into the zone, rather than just go "i get heatcap ten and then overcharge until im in DZ", likewise, Overcharge's change was necessary due to how the new Stress Table works.
  • Brace i felt would often have its difficulty brute forced and so i made a change to accomodate that, if you use something like rebakes, then the conventional brace might not be as weak in that context.
  • Op Cal and Autostabs Down 🥳🥳🥳. I killed them both because they had to go tbh. turned into mods with different effects (in part to introduce more mod competition) and replaced them with non-dps options. if you want more damage then extra mounts and integrated and everything else is all right there.
  • Serious there's a lot of changes, a new integrated for napoleon+ something else to do, Changes to the White Witch Armor, The Mourning Cloak Jump, etc. Barbarossa flak cannon, etc. check it out if you are interested.
  • Operators and Assaults and whoever else random nobodies are now no longer universally good at invading just because ™

Final notes:

  • I generally do not like changing the core mechanics of lancer (rewriting rules, new tags or conditions, etc.) and seek to do it as little as possible. I actually like and enjoy the base CRB version of lancer as it was pitched and am still willing to play it.
  • I might always change, remove, or add things down the line, i have ideas im toying around with in regards to the base weapon types (this is a long shot)
  • I might put Player Prestige/mastery traits here.
  • If you see something missing you think should be on there and want to know why, the answer is either
    A) i dont think i care enough to have a problem with it (its too fun, i find it easy to manage, etc.) these are things like nuke cav, superior by design, invisibility, etc.
    B) i only like to make changes to things I am personally familiar with via long term direct usage/play in a campaign or campaign-like setting, to ensure i have a deep understanding both of how it works, and how it leads to problems that manifest in ways i think need to be cut (Ie i didn't change white witch until After i had personally used it, had it on my team, and gm'd for it, even though i had long heard everyone else's opinions on it and could have probably made an adjustment.)
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oh i didn't have room to fit this but i also made these house rules not just to address problems via one big sweeping solution, but rather by comparison in the ecosystem overall of the rules and table to address issues.

for example, I don't really have Nuclear Cav problems both because most of those builds relied on overcharge doing the work for them and also giving them the heat to attack with in the same action, and now they can't do that, Additionally, now Everyone has to care about overheating, because Exposed (Which now is a rare occurance, instead of wow seriously? more than 2/3rds of the time???? holy shit. The fact that players are likely to be stuck at half damage and be slow moving more universally affects everyone and places a much larger immediate threat. Your players will actually be afraid of overheating if it means neutering their HMG (i neutered the HMG anyway, just a little bit) these two changes means that only what I call "Respectable reactor criminals" will seriously indulge with the practice, and i generalyl find that more manage (occurs less frequently, harder to access, they are less likely to abuse it because they care about not dealing half damage.)

I also didn't do things like Buff Scan or Bolster, because, imo i dont think i need to, I dont realyl think they are things that "fail" to do their job like brace had been under things like +2 accuracy multi attackers, and im fine with Lancer having actions that "are extremely niche and rarely used, btu do exactly what you ask them to." if scan or bolster existed in 5e or something the way they do in lancer people would spam that shit like crazy, and imo getting players to Scan more because you wish they would means, imo giving them more reasons to scan (and i dont just mean custom npc,s) i mean make mechanics that interact with scanning. Make ways to end encounters quicker or obtain bonus endings that require scan, make field effects that hook into it. Buy my product GMS CC and use the Sorcerer npc to make an artillery that will kill everybody if you don't scan them like groceries. it's a win win really.

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alright enough yapping

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Also final thing: I am WAYYYY more casual about this than i am my other works so like, if it happens it happens i guess i'll let yall know if this changes, but this is first and foremost "just what im doing at mine"

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separation for ease of viewing

cursive cipher
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Nice, I finally know where to find these !

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I already know I like some of these, so I'm really interested in knowing what else you have I might like.

viscid slate
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I used AutoCoord on a Kutuzov with Emperor Systems a while back. Tl;dr, I like it! I only used the Overshield effect and never the deployable effect, was putting effort into using it every turn if possible (which didn’t always occur but it occurred often enough), and I had House Guard to give it extra range.

4 Overshield isn’t a lot, and with Emperor Systems specifically sometimes I had to be careful with the targeting to not override Overshield, but those are just quirks and not bad things. Free Overshield every turn is great even if it’s just a little bit, and the conditional behind it is very nice and makes it feel like a fantastic support Core Bonus without being OpCal or AutoStab levels of free

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For Intrusion Package, I won’t say much since I was just around others who used it, but from what I heard the two big points against it was how free it was, and the fact it triggered off of Held Image, and neither point held in particularly high regard.

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Btw what was your reasoning behind changing Neurolink Targeting out of curiosity? It never stood out to me as a big Problem Core Bonus but I sure as heck haven’t seen it in play

green osprey
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because no one was taking a core bonus for three range tbh

viscid slate
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Sometimes people would but yeah it’s typically for very gimmicky reasons (Fusion Rifle, Vorpal Gun, etc) and a Core Bonus that exists only for gimmicks is not usually very productive

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White Witches changes are also funky- feels a lot like a sidegrade to the core version which is a positive in my book. Taking the Armor out of the White Witch to make Shred + AP not affect it as much while also needing it to watch its back whenever it has Overshield. It’s very interesting.

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Also, where do we find rules on the Heavyweight tag again?

violet iron
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holy amr buff!

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lovr what u have here so far

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Wont comment tho because i lack experience

green osprey
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it's just the same Idea Kai Tave floated around, so I used those

violet iron
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no i like it

viscid slate
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How come the Ricochet blades are a Main Weapon instead of, say, an Aux weapon?

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Wait actually I rescind that I asked the question and then thought about it and realized how much bookkeeping Aux Ricochet Blades would be and how it’d be way more complicated than Stub Cannons or whatever

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  • I just realized how useful it would be to Atlas to have a Licensed Main weapon option that doesn’t cost 2 SP to equip
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unfortunately no Hunter Applications v_v

frozen bay
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Greetings, am about to spout the Intrusion Package notes (⁠ㆁ⁠ω⁠ㆁ⁠)

I believe ASquared mentioned similarly already, but yeah basically the feeling was that it functioned like "hacking OpCal", by straight improving debuff output without any particular decision making.

A thought I had that our group might play test is to only trigger the free Impair on something like:

  • A full tech targeting a hostile.
  • On the second tech action targeting the same hostile in a turn.
  • 1/round on a targeted hostile that has no debuffs that were caused by not-itself.

Would love to know how its felt in your own games, because admittedly it feeling strong was more about how it felt like it invalidated fragsig kinda, and was a free rider, both of which may have been circumstancial to the group it was run in.

green osprey
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mhm! note: i generally probably will not be taking suggestions for how to change things in this set, since this is, ultimately, my own house table rules before anything else,

in my own games, no one has ever bothered with this really, I have no seen anyone use these because players have generalyl tended to favor defensive bonuses or more direct offensive output,

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I've had a general eye or thought about the impair, but i only briefly had someone use the bonus before ultimately deciding on something else, so data was limited on the matter

frozen bay
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V appreciate for sharing :> Yeah mostly looking for other people's perspectives as our group continues to brew our own changes.

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As we already us autocoord, we certainly like your ideas as it stands and it's fun to build off it

green osprey
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if i were to go and change (not doing this as of yet immediately, if i do it will probably be in the next 10 days, as i generally dont change house rules "during" missions) id probably change the impaired rider to something else, this bonus was written "a long" time ago and after recently tinkering around with an npc that engaged with the concept, i'd probably be moving the impaired to be something more directly tied to the hostility theme

cursive cipher
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I will say having it on a swallowtail made for a very, very, very strong Quick Tech Lock On

green osprey
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Actually, I just can just change it right now since the mission hasnt started it yet, so i did that

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the benefits of this being a google doc with no lcp really are astounding

frozen bay
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I gotta figure out how to overwrite CRB options in v3 C/C so I can implement stuff like your rules in LCP format

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I suppose to remove something you'd make an override for OpCal and AutoStab as Underpower Caliber and Automatic Destabliser? 😅

cursive cipher
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Oh yeah that one's really fun (talking about the new intrusion package)

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Remains to be seen if it's still too much, for you and/or other people, but it sounds really fucking fun at least

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So you've got that down

frozen bay
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Cool retool on IntruPack btw - seems interesting for a GM to play around too. Funnily useless against melee units, probably superb against artillery

green osprey
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well its quite useful against melee if you aren't near them

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oh I'm out of the house but someone remind me to add a time limit clause to thst

gray dome
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  • I think folks have already covered what I had written down for Intrusion Package, so I’ll pass over that.
  • Autonomous Coordination has been satisfying for folks!
  • Thermal Rifle at range 8 has also been satisfying.

That’s all I have for now; overall I appreciate how your tweaks are restrained yet impactful!

green osprey
viscid slate
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The bigger concern to me imo is the fact the rider is so free- runs into a similar issue to AutoStab

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Like if it had a prereq I don't think it'd be getting as harsh criticisms

green osprey
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respectfully i do not think 1/round one enemy is disrupted from team combos if you use a single target tech action on them" is remotely comparable to "any weapon mount you want is accurate by default forever"

viscid slate
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Fair- still it's less about the actual effect and more about the fact it takes minimal effort to trigger.

green osprey
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yeah that's the point

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im not against minimal effort activationg core bonuses,

pliant cloud
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hoorah! kinda exciting thread to see/study

green osprey
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thank you!

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it Occurs to me that I did not list the NPC change

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oh also i didnt mention it but im sure people can see that I am fine with prepare existing but I am not fine with prepare allowing you to do anything other than shooting a gun

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so i have fixed that

viscid slate
green osprey
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I started on this yesterday, fell asleep/got bored/did a bunch of other things. Will probably expand on this later but for now i decided to do a little codification and testing out also of the general principle @spark ridge suggested regarding "replaceable parts for all" as part of a larger look at the "what happens when things go wrong" trend i've been considered,

as usual my design philosophy is to not overhaul the game, even if i am very much willing to make major/big changes, I like lancer broadly as is, and view this as a baseline for what you can do to/with players both for repairs and what can be done when you are without a mech. As always this is just a building framework but if i think I like where its at I might build Special specific add-on reserves to this, but largely speaking, i dont think this is here to reward players or help them win, i believe this is here to give them something fun to do.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-enCiHG53v12W8g7wkLxJ_25unxyat41Yr6Wdq09XqE/edit?usp=sharing

What's within:

  • New Stabilize
  • New Rest
  • New Replaceable Parts
  • New Jockey
  • New Pilot Status: On Notice
  • New Pilot Action: Persist
  • New Power at a Cost: Back Up Suit.

here too i guess

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did not mean to ping that,

pliant cloud
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looking at

spark ridge
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Neat

pliant cloud
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we dig this quite a bit, yeah

spark ridge
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Overshield on a stabilize spend seems like an interesting approach to keeping it from being a quicksand spiral

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And I kind of like stress costing more to fix than structure given that stress is a resource you can actively spend

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It creates, at least on paper, an interesting texture to the repair quandary since you can get your structure back up with less investment, but if you leave your stress dinged it means you maybe can't freely overcharge/self-heat as much

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This may be beyond the remit of what you're personally interested in, but I'm curious if you have thoughts on the HA Adaptive Reactor core bonus in conjunction with this (per the CRB version, when you Stabilize and elect to clear heat, you can also spend 2 Repairs to patch one stress damage)

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It's a core bonus that doesn't get picked a lot, I know some third-party stuff has made it more appealing, but idk if you have any thoughts on it or not

green osprey
# spark ridge This may be beyond the remit of what you're personally interested in, but I'm cu...

(Ramble Incoming)
You know, i've thought about it a fair bit in regards to like, what would I like out of it personally, versus a "what do i think needs to be done about it" in regards to my general philosophy of core bonuses as something that has to provide consistency (either in applying a permanent and relevant buff Ie gyges frame or FSS which will always come up, or in something like Universal Compatibility and SBD both providing a very handy emergency benefit"

and my first step is, I think, Balancing out/metering out a specific categorization of it's intended expression of Consistent utility/benefit, and then evaluating the methods just so i can get a broad strokes idea of different paths to solve the issue

i think if i were to sit on it as far as my Napkin math ideas for "something i think is good for the game, the context it would get used, and the actual experience of using it"

  • Obvious Reduced cost on stress repair added as well
  • Some type of Additional Boost to utilizing the effect, whether it be overshield, Heat resistance, or soemthing else
  • Conjure an effect or benefit out of the aether based on the flavor text or something i dunno

For those broad strategies, i compare to what, i think broadly, would be the point of issue: There's not, in the CRB an incentive to actually use the benefit, really, beyond a hypothetical "i want more stress in this combat" which has the obvious flaw of Spending action econ/the demon RSU, so you can...... abuse your reactor for more action econ or something else spicy, which feels like a bandaid. For all the talk of the Transubstantiation or IPS-N's briareos, those two have incentives (I dont want to die right here right now)

So my thoughts would be "It needs some type of broad universal or reasonably common tangible incentive for its usecase"
talking myself through this process, I would say, either make repairing stress universally cheaper so (dangerous and imo counterintuitive to the existing structural change) B) make Adaptive Reactor give a repair discount (imo it feels inelegant as a solution and also still feels dangerous as it reacreates the above situation and potentially oversaturates the CB market with synergistic ways to squeezse your heatbar, or C) make it into even more of a "save my reactor" CB. Have it clear all the harmful effects from the Stress table in exchange for like, something simple, in addition to also restoring reactor, maybe even go further than that.

my immediate thoughts on it, Id probably need to talk on it more or just run the CB as is for a bit to get my solution for it,

spark ridge
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Yeah, the one personal context I've seen to get used a lot is with Suldan's IPS-N Worden which has a core active that lets it do an additional barrage each round in exchange for taking 1 stress damage, so people would essentially feed their repair cap to the furnace

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which is a neat interaction (imo) but it does sort of suggest that BASELINE the incentive structure isn't really there

green osprey
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yeah, sepdning the action econ for the thing you want for more action econ winds up in practice struggling to compete against the other CB's which either have universal and obvious consistency or can be readily used proactively, but this one being reactive + the aforementioned "spend actions to gain probably less actions" incentive structure just isnt there, esp since usually dying by stress is way less common, so theres less pressure to really have more stress unless you are at 1 remaining

spark ridge
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It's kind of a broad picture problem with things like this, Briareos Frame, etc, in that they're less proactive/facilitative and more "this comes up only when things suck for you"

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Stasis Shielding is another one kind of in a similar boat (gain resistance to all damage until the start of your next turn whenever you take stress) but that at least feels like it plays more into a "spending stress as a resource" proactive playstyle

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In the specific, Adaptive Reactor sticks out here only because it plays into the repair cap economy in ways that most core bonuses don't, it's not something I think NEEDS to be incorporated into this...idk what you want to call this, overhaul, revision, hack, etc...but I thought I'd bring it up

green osprey
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yeah, for better or worse, you don't have to use any actions to leverage that take less damage, and it has the built in synergy of "exposed is the most common stress result in CRB" so like, that one has its obvious applicable benefit. its why with briareos i ended up just letting it gaurantee activate zombie mode if its the first time you die in mission, kind of solves the overall consistency problem with or without default structure/stress, and it feels "fitting" that the dont die zombie CB actually stops you from dying the first time.

and yeah yeah its a good thing to bring up in regards to Adaptive, because tbh I usually forget it exists unless im scrolling over core bonuses for the umpteeth time per month because im researching something else, it's always been i think forgettable in a way others haven't. im still not sure myself what to call this part specifically since its more broadly meant to be an official "putting it out there" type of thing like structure and stress tables, but i guess its under that broad structural functionality of "making the "We died" end of lancer more consistently operable in a way that preserves what i think also makes lancer unique and turn it into something more engageable, and i guess, in a weird way "like we're driving mechs" aspect rather than "this is just a big fantasy character except i dont really die when i die" thing, make dying more consistently interactable and give pilots something real to do without making players even more immortal.

sleek summit
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Would it be interesting enough if it were just decoupled from the repair cap economy, perhaps? If it were just once per scene, when you stabilise, you can recover one stress?

Now you are almost incentivised to stress your reactor every scene (and there’s plenty of ways to do so with benefits to doing them, overcharge being the most obvious) but it will always be a bit of a risk reward trade off because of enemy heat stuff (and maybe the stress chart)

It could also be once per mission, or twice per mission once per scene, or whatever is needs for balancing.

gray dome
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Doesn’t solve the action economy problem of still having to Stabilize the stress back

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Which sounds like the major issue Maria has with the CB

sleek summit
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Indeed not, but it improves it slightly. You are getting other benefits out of the stabilise as well, hopefully.

gray dome
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personally I like the “pick another option from the stabilize list” approach, but I’m biased and have done something similar

gray dome
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Changing the cost doesn’t change the underlying incentive

green osprey
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tbh I wouldn't remove it from the repair economy thing because the whole point is to kind of really do the opposite,