THE SILKSONG IS REAL

[hoary tulip]

I braingoblined myself into thinking it was headed to a Shaman Village type lore zone

[autumn kettle]

lol

it's headed to a baby version of that

but also, I really hope a dlc entrance or interaction point is there

||currently it's just for a memento, the journal entries, and mister mushroom||

[brave flower]

god the silksong dlc is gonna go crazy

[autumn kettle]

fr

[hoary tulip]

For real for real

[brave flower]

i wonder if theres a secret boss nobodys found yet

[autumn kettle]

datamining says no afaik

[brave flower]

damn

[fathom shadow]

Need some guidance, Im stuck on where to go and what to do after defeating the cogwork dancers

I seem to need either a double jump, grappling hook, or there are still locations I haven't found that I need to progress.

[brave flower]

you can grab the grappling hook from ||an alternate entrance to underworks||

[fathom shadow]

Do you mean here?

[brave flower]

i dont remember off the top of my head

its an elevator that requires a key

[vagrant spruce]

just finish exploring all of the parts of the citadel you can reach

[hollow elm]

Citadel is shockingly large

[vagrant spruce]

there's a couple pit stops you have to make along the way, finding a key + finding the actual spot to use the key. ||cogwork dancers|| (the one you did) is kinda like the boss you gotta do pretty early in the citadel, and then it opens up, routing wise, from there

[autumn kettle]

you're misremembering

||it's through whiteward||

[fathom shadow]

I got the ||white key||

Where do I use it?

[autumn kettle]

explore the choral chambers

[brave flower]

yeah and then the actual grappling hook is in ||underworks||

[autumn kettle]

||yeah but you don't get there by looking for the underworks||

||you get there by snooping through whiteward||

[vagrant spruce]

its pretty hard to miss most of the abilities in this game, so i wouldn't stress too much about finding them too soon. the intended progression is pretty logical

[thorny bear]

late postgame spoilers ||The bait and switch of making you think the fleas will end up like the grubs, only for them to be having a festival, is very good.||

||The only happy ending in Hollow Knight is Cornifer and Iselda, the only happy ending in Silksong is the fleas.||

[hidden flame]

||I would argue that Bretta is possibly happy||

[brave flower]

doesnt ||sherma|| get one?

[thorny bear]

having unrequited love for a delusional narcissist is generally not a situation that leads to long-term fulfillment

[autumn kettle]

yes

[thorny bear]

i guess kinda? ||i don't remember how willing/happy he was to take over as leader||

[autumn kettle]

also, this isn't how her story ends

if you beat the shit out of grey prince zote enough times she realizes he's a fraud loser and leaves hallownest to figure out life for herself

[thorny bear]

that's true, forgot that can happen

[hidden flame]

One must imagine Bretta happy

[thorny bear]

but i don't think i'd classify "wandering out into the wilderness where most bugs lose their minds" as a happy ending

especially since she doesn't even have a mask

[autumn kettle]

i think it's intended to be taken as hopeful

not suicidal

[thorny bear]

yeah, i didn't mean that of course

[autumn kettle]

or delusional

[thorny bear]

but "open-ended with a slim possibility of hopefulness" is most characters in the series who don't die

[autumn kettle]

i suppose

[fervent sand]

wonderful

[lapis siren]

does anyone now if theres a mod to remove groal

[fervent sand]

ha

literally the boss I slammed head first into

[lapis siren]

thats not a joke

[solar elbow]

very, very late game

||HALLOWNEST???????????????????????????????????||

[lapis siren]

i find him boring and miserable

just a completely unfun and unengaging fight

[thorny bear]

you don't need to fight him until true ending, if that helps

[fervent sand]

I'm just gonna keep plugging away at him

[autumn kettle]

https://www.nexusmods.com/hollowknightsilksong/mods/172

[lapis siren]

it doesnt, hes my next step in progression

i have to fight him now

[vagrant spruce]

groal cheese - ||hide in the poison water||

[lapis siren]

i am doing that

i know all the cheese

the problem is i get so bored i die

i fall asleep during the fight and forget he can do things

and then i jump into him and die

[vagrant spruce]

then it should be over in like a minute or two, just hit him while you're immune to his attacks. you can handle being bored for 2 minutes lol

[lapis siren]

i am so fucking done with this boss i am absolutely tuned out of everything he's doing

[lapis siren]

i have been doing this and it takes so damn long

and then i end up dying to accidents

and its just miserable

like i said, i dont find it hard

just really, really boring

[autumn kettle]

glass cannon mod is my legitimate suggestion

[vagrant spruce]

that sounds annoying for the prefight probably

[autumn kettle]

true, but all of the enemies die instantly too

[vagrant spruce]

ah true

[fervent sand]

I am but a wandering foo who slapped hard into some rough fights

[lapis siren]

i just geuinely find this to be a really unfun time

and i cant not do it, i literally have to do this to progress any further

[rose granite]

If you want a mod, there are invincibility or damage ones which you could install and then uninstall.

The damage one I saw I think just increased it to 2x or something, but could be adjusted.

[lapis siren]

i just dont really understand why they decided to design it like this

i could accept basically every part of this if it was by itself

but meshing all of these parts together is such a uniquely Meh experience

i love this game to death

[fervent sand]

No game is perfect, and you can just install a mod like Orange suggested to skip it.

Right now the complaining is just kinda driving people out of the thread

I sure as hell felt like leaving when I popped in and saw this as the first thing

[lapis siren]

i get that

i dont wanna complain, like i said, i really do love this game

[fervent sand]

If you say "I get that" and continue complaining I will be annoyed

[lapis siren]

this is the only negative experience i have had so far in 25 hours, i think that every part of silksong so far has been very well crafted

[fervent sand]

You're fighting this guy at 25 hours in? I'm like 35 hours in and having difficulty with him

[lapis siren]

i overall have had a good time, just a bit tired really

[fervent sand]

you're trying this dude way too early

[lapis siren]

i have nail 4 and pouch 3/3

[hoary tulip]

what

[lapis siren]

and may also just be going faster, i pretty much only have ||cradle fight||

[hoary tulip]

how

[vagrant spruce]

idk. i think i would recommend taking a break from silksong, it's possible to enjoy something and also be burnt out at the same time

[lapis siren]

wrong pouch number lmao

[hoary tulip]

how the fuck do you have nail 4 already

[lapis siren]

i got all the oil

well

im missing one

but im assuming that doesnt come in until later

[hoary tulip]

4 is the last nail

[brave flower]

are you still in act 1?

[lapis siren]

i count from 1

[vagrant spruce]

you have nail 3

[lapis siren]

no im in act 2

[autumn kettle]

it is not

[vagrant spruce]

ahh

[autumn kettle]

nail 5 is the final nail

[hoary tulip]

oh

[lapis siren]

yeah im not an array

[vagrant spruce]

yeah no i was counting as nail 0

[hoary tulip]

sorry yeah I 0-indexed it

[autumn kettle]

the number 1 exists

[lapis siren]

i count starting from 1

[autumn kettle]

nail 0 is not having a nail

[vagrant spruce]

in HK nail 0 was what people used to refer to base nail lol, idk what to tell you

(for things like challenge runs, mostly)

i was just defaulting to that

[hidden flame]

Nail 0 is ||the Slab sequence||

[autumn kettle]

i mean, that may be true, but people always called pure nail nail 5

[hoary tulip]

anyways if you have the second bench in that area then It Just Kinda Sucks and you gotta take it slow and be patient with the fight

[autumn kettle]

including in speedrun terminology

[hoary tulip]

that's all I got in terms of advice

[lapis siren]

yeah thats pretty much the scenario im in luna

[vagrant spruce]

anyway - i would recommend taking a break and coming back to this boss (or silksong in general, if you have really nothing else to do) later

[lapis siren]

it is probably not helped by being on a meds lapse

[hoary tulip]

yeah I'd step away from it probably

[lapis siren]

i either have groal or research paper outlines to review and im not sure which is going to be more crashout inducing

[fervent sand]

I'm on like nail 1 I'm just hitting my head against the wall over and over

[lapis siren]

i am taking a break, yes

[hoary tulip]

don't play games if they're not gonna be fun

[autumn kettle]

have you been using ||bombs|| on groal?

[hidden flame]

I'm taking a Skong break after dying to 4 contact damage on Sis Splint

[lapis siren]

yeah i have topple

[autumn kettle]

gotcha

unfortunately i also don't have anything else to say about him

[lapis siren]

im partly so frustrated cause i keep hitting final phase and then getting got lmao

[autumn kettle]

my experience (and some friends' experience) with groal was

[hoary tulip]

true groal experience

[lapis siren]

its that thing where if i died early id be happier than if i died later

[autumn kettle]

"wow, i'm getting my ass kicked -> oh, it's over"

[elfin ravine]

get your damage upgrades Leika

[autumn kettle]

and i died like three times and then won without feeling like i understood or learned anything

[elfin ravine]

the first one is free

[lapis siren]

but otherwise yeah i think he's the only "real" thing i can do other than fleas

[autumn kettle]

he kind of just McFuckingDied

[fervent sand]

My first ||crest was the beast crest because I kept slamming against the beastfly until I was the true beast||

[lapis siren]

other than ending the game

[autumn kettle]

in fairness, if you do want to be skonging fleas are good

[elfin ravine]

I did hate Groal a lot

[autumn kettle]

because ||all fleas gives you the final pale oil||

[lapis siren]

i already went flea hunting yesterday

[elfin ravine]

that whole sequence tilted me so bad

[lapis siren]

so i dont wanna go back yet

i was doing the damn ||wisp thicket|| and ||fay|| fleas

[autumn kettle]

oh yeah, the ||wisp thicket is a fucked up area||

||the wisps are vile||

[lapis siren]

which were also not exactly the most riveting gameplay wise despite being awesome vibes wise

[elfin ravine]

wouldn't be quite as bad if anything there gave silk

[lapis siren]

yeah

yeah,

i may be the outlier in actually liking bilewater as an area

just not a huge frog fan

[autumn kettle]

oh, i don't hate it

i don't actively like it

but i don't think i ever had any Bilewater Malding™ like a lot of people seem to

[elfin ravine]

the rest of Bilewater was annoying, but in a way I could deal with

[lapis siren]

i think its a fun platforming sequence and the trolls are fairly predictable and funny

[autumn kettle]

actually

[elfin ravine]

Bilehaven arena was just frustrating and unfun

[autumn kettle]

one thing gave me a minor crashout

[lapis siren]

once you learn to play by its rules and blatantly disrespect the area its good

[autumn kettle]

and it was only in hindsight

the fucking fact ||that the bilewater maggots are killable||

||for a journal entry||

made me distort

||because i was looking for the last two journal entries for like an hour and a half, to no success||

[lapis siren]

pogoing on the flies to skip stuff, the ||fake bench||

all of its funny and good

[autumn kettle]

okay yeah ||i do think that the fake bench was funny||

i also never found the ||hidden pre-groal bench, either||

||so my three runs were all from the fucking bellway||

[brave flower]

oh no

[fervent sand]

Oh dear

[autumn kettle]

i mean, it wasn't that bad

[lapis siren]

i did find the other bench

[autumn kettle]

the runback was long but not challenging

[lapis siren]

i did also kill the maggots by accident

[fervent sand]

there is also ||one that's by the bellway, near the station||

[lapis siren]

since i have the voltvessel

[autumn kettle]

and like i said i didn't do too many runs

[lapis siren]

this is like my fifth or sixth

[fervent sand]

I just wish Groal could have the ||tacks|| used on him

[lapis siren]

real lmao

honestly i just wish i could skip the arena section

thats it

id be happy if i could skip that

[elfin ravine]

yeah

[lapis siren]

i have the entire arena solved at this point

[autumn kettle]

the arena feels like padding to me, yeah

[lapis siren]

and its not exactly getting me hyped to fight groal

[autumn kettle]

that was my thought on the karmelita arena as well

[elfin ravine]

the fight itself is fine mostly
it's just having to go through the entire thing every time

[hoary tulip]

It’s nonsense but you can kinda just do it

[lapis siren]

well yeah

i dont think this is hard

[hoary tulip]

It’s not hard

It’s a focus check

[autumn kettle]

the first time it was a bit sketchy because i didn't know what was going on

[lapis siren]

i just dont really find it engaging, and i think the rest of silksong is incredibly engaging

[hoary tulip]

Which sucks actually

[autumn kettle]

and then after that it was just a time tax

which was...unappealing

because karmelita is one of my favorite fights in the game

[hoary tulip]

Some pre-boss arenas are a lot less frustrating than others because they prime you for the boss’s movement and attacks

[lapis siren]

even the stuff that i think is unfair and kinda bs like the long ass high halls arena i do think actually is interesting purely for the way that it introduces new enemies in the fight like a gotcha, and can be handled smartly

i also like the runbacks generally, i think its cool how they build familiarity and speedrunning technique

[fervent sand]

I need to find some items for the ||gourmand||. I've found ||the aged nectar from the inn keeper, the courier meat from the two delivery bugs in bellhart (haven't managed to deliver that yet), and the moss stew from the crazy witch. NOt sure where the other two are from, one of the reasons I'm in bilehaven is looking for that maggot stuff.||

[lapis siren]

if you talk to the guy he'll give hints

theyre pretty useful

[autumn kettle]

you're ||near the right place, regarding bilehaven||

||not in the right place||

both of the last two need ||wings|| afaik

||and the courier's rasher is far easier with wings, as well||

[hoary tulip]

This fight messes with me because you can ||get NPCs to show up and help you|| so they knew it was kinda bullshit

[fervent sand]

||I gots wings now I think. The double jump from Mnt Fay right?||

[autumn kettle]

yuh

[fervent sand]

||I thought the maggot might be from the dudes who give you the tacks but nah. Which is a shame.||

[autumn kettle]

||very close||

[fervent sand]

||Heck. Not sure who else is even in that area.||

[lapis siren]

i wish garmond could arrive

[fervent sand]

Maybe a DLC

fight them

[lapis siren]

do you have all your movement tools yet?

[hidden flame]

Garmond is great

Don Quixote-lookin' fella

[lapis siren]

i cant believe they nerfed splinter but not groal honestly

[fervent sand]

I have no idea if I have all of them yet

[lapis siren]

thats incredibly funny

do you have monarch wings or nah

cause thats the only true movement tool

[autumn kettle]

yeah just established in spoilers

[autumn kettle]

hey now, harpoon is peam

[lapis siren]

oh if you have them then yes you are good to go

genuine question

||why does this guy drop a slab key||

bwuh

[autumn kettle]

oh did you finish groal?

nice

||he was just uhhhh very far away from hom||

[brave flower]

all the movement tools are amazing wdym

[vagrant spruce]

you don't need groal ||to get to putrified ducts/the apostate key, just for the quest item, tbf||

[autumn kettle]

you don't?

huh

[vagrant spruce]

also idk same reason the HK love key is in queens gardens

[autumn kettle]

also

spoil that lol

[vagrant spruce]

||nah you can tag putrified via the top entrance||

[autumn kettle]

uh, i thought you meant from bilewater

[brave flower]

• the greatest dash in videogame history
• funny cloak that lets you airstall
• hARPOON MY BELOVED
• awesome fuckin walljump

[vagrant spruce]

||i think that's true? but i'm not sure you can't just pogo up, i think its possible w/o opening the door after groal. migth not be though idk||

[lapis siren]

wgat

oh

i win i guess

[autumn kettle]

yeah that's the groal experience

[autumn kettle]

iirc it's too high

[vagrant spruce]

yeah i'd believe it, iddn't test personally

[lapis siren]

that was anticlimatic

[elfin ravine]

well, at least you don't need to deal with that annoying ass fight anymore

[lapis siren]

i just kinda threw tools at him

and then he died from one nail swing

huh.

ok thats definitely an item

[formal zenith]

oh my god i hate mount fay

[lapis siren]

i feel like i keep doing late game stuff way too early at this point

[hoary tulip]

yeah

groal moment

[lapis siren]

they got half life in this game thats crazy

[brave flower]

i love mount fay

its so cool

[formal zenith]

what do you even do at this point

[autumn kettle]

i forget, is this where you just came from the left?

[formal zenith]

the right

[lapis siren]

down and left

[autumn kettle]

then down l-

yeah

[fervent sand]

down and left yeah

[formal zenith]

down??

[fervent sand]

you'll fall a while

down and to the left

Hug the left wall to make sure you don't miss it

[formal zenith]

well all right then

of course there's no bench here

[brave flower]

theres a bench Later

the benches are spaced out pretty well

[formal zenith]

of course there's a section where messing up once just fucking kills you

[brave flower]

do you have plasmium phial

[formal zenith]

i'm not doing this today

yeah, and it doesn't do enough

this is like if celeste only had C-sides

[lapis siren]

ok wait.... team cherrys gameplay loop is this fire ? i forgive groal

the LGBT community has forgiven groal the great

[hoary tulip]

Groal the Goat

[autumn kettle]

okay that's cap this shit is not celeste-tier platforming

[lapis siren]

ok what the fuck is this team cherry lmao ||i assume there has to be a way to naturally find the duct entrance from memorium without just hitting everything looking for fleas||

bravo ari you've done it again

[thorny bear]

there's a side quest that leads you there

it's how i found it

[lapis siren]

ok yeah that makes sense

i have been doing the class 10 foot flea pole

[rose granite]

Yeah, at least the area outside of it.

[lapis siren]

where i just poke every wall and ceiling

[rose granite]

At which point it's fairly easy to find it proper.

[autumn kettle]

yeah, but that's the big hurdle

exploring this Conspicuously Empty Large Open Area is like

[torn sky]

||Oh no, I found the Mineta Flea. Can I un-rescue him?||

[autumn kettle]

a metroidvania classic

[rose granite]

No the big hurdle is the wall, but luckily enough it's easy to climb

But it is a big wall

[lapis siren]

no but you can beat his ass to receive the 100% discount for the rest of the game

[autumn kettle]

lol

[autumn kettle]

(and he also never spies again)

[lapis siren]

he's a reference to the HK fanbase

[autumn kettle]

hornet's like "you're lucky i didn't fucking stick you on my needle and deep fry you"

[lapis siren]

OH

[vagrant spruce]

cogwork requires pogos

[lapis siren]

TGHATS THE LAST BELLWAY

[autumn kettle]

sick

[lapis siren]

shell yeah

[fervent sand]

I need to beat my head against the wall some more when I'm in less pain

I took down beastfly for my first crest I can beat anything

[torn sky]

I am very proud right now. I managed to air juggle him all the way from the camp to the Greymoor stagway. XD

[fervent sand]

I might need to farm some shards up though I've been burning through my tools

[lapis siren]

leika you may wanna come bakc later

its a uh

[torn sky]

I had to use Thread Storm to get distance several times but it was worth it

[lapis siren]

very beefy guy

[autumn kettle]

lol

[lapis siren]

you should drop him in the water

why do they have the bloodborne pigs lmfao

[formal zenith]

even if celeste is harder it at least respects your time enough to just let you immediately retry the room you died to
way less frustrating

[fervent sand]

I am but a fool, filled with poison and pointy bits

I should go and farm a bit though, I found ||Grindle's|| shop and he's got a bunch of expensive things

[autumn kettle]

and they just bigfixed ||the snitch pick!||

[fervent sand]

||I will definitely have to grab some of those tasty items||

[torn sky]

I'm trying to save up 1.1k to get the Multibinder + Memory Locket.

[autumn kettle]

good investments

multibinder + another one you'll find are quite strong

[hoary tulip]

does Multibinder work with beast btw

[autumn kettle]

p sure yep

lets you heal up to 4

[hoary tulip]

neat

[formal zenith]

i think i need to uninstall this game for now tbh
trying to play a game that punishes every minor mistake while going through a depressive episode is in hindsight a terrible idea

[fervent sand]

If you feel it is better for you at the moment, then follow that through yes

Unfortunately with all this time in the world, I have been doodling Hollow Knight-sonas

basically, just little bugs

Fun to doodle

[autumn kettle]

bugge

[lapis siren]

Hollow knight is peak for having everything just. Be bugs

not bugs in a human world, just bugs

[fervent sand]

I love the relic person, such a great design

Though I do wonder why most of the time, it seems if you can fly you turn evil

or are animal like, like the beastfly

[hoary tulip]

Shakra can fly

she's not evil

[lapis siren]

hubris

[umbral canyon]

act 3 question: ||The fleas have moved to pale lake and i've completed every settlement wish board|| what else do i need to do to start it? ||it begins when you talk to the songclave keeper, right?||

[autumn kettle]

||yes, after you have a certain completion %||

[thorny bear]

do stuff on the boards

[umbral canyon]

they're all empty. it's only: ||bone bottom, bellhart, and songclave|| right?

[vagrant spruce]

yep

[umbral canyon]

hm. might be a save and reload situation then idk

[autumn kettle]

it's probably a find more tools thing

[thorny bear]

yeah i'd say explore whatever area is left on your map

[umbral canyon]

oh, tools count? that's annoying, but good to know

[autumn kettle]

tools are %

[umbral canyon]

the only non-secret (ie- visible) unexplored areas are: ||the storm on mount fay, the top of the slab, the top of the citadel path to the slab, the top of the one part of the memorium leading to the ducts||

[autumn kettle]

as are silk hearts, and ||lace, who might be mandatory to trigger it? I'm fairly sure i triggered it before lace 2, but i may be misremembering||

[umbral canyon]

so it's all prob just secrets i'm missing i guess

yep that boss is done, as is ||grandmother silk||

[vagrant spruce]

i didn't know it was % based, i thought it was ||things that would be missable in the transition||

[umbral canyon]

if it's based on % completion, it sure would be nice if you could see what that was!

[autumn kettle]

you can see it in act 3

[umbral canyon]

yeah but that doesn't help me when i'm trying to hit the breakpoint to reach act 3 lol

[brave flower]

can you even start it after ||grandmother silk?||

[umbral canyon]

you return to your last save with the journal data

[brave flower]

ahh ok

[umbral canyon]

so, if enemies count, i suppose that would?

[autumn kettle]

it's definitely meant to be an obscured and some what hidden "keep exploring" thing

[umbral canyon]

i assume the ||seeker's soul|| is needed so that's already there

[vagrant spruce]

||you'll get a quest from songclave bell tender guy at some point, completing it leads to act 3, that shouldn't be required to begin the quest though. keep talking to him, thouhg, because it's a quest from the NPC rather than the bod||

[umbral canyon]

oh, you actually get the quest from ||the bellhart board||, i assume it would be from talking to the npc

ok, here we go then

[lapis siren]

hooray!

i got the worst ending!

on the bright side i beat the final boss first try

[brave flower]

which ending is that?

[lapis siren]

||weaver queen||

[hoary tulip]

That’s not the worst ending

[lapis siren]

its not ??? how could it get worse than that

[brave flower]

tree

[lapis siren]

what do you mean tree

[brave flower]

tree

[autumn kettle]

tree :)

[hoary tulip]

tree

[lapis siren]

what

[tacit wadi]

tree

[lapis siren]

zzcccczzccccz

[autumn kettle]

||there's an ending for beating the game while cursed||

[lapis siren]

zzzz

[autumn kettle]

||tree :)||

[lapis siren]

oohhh

[brave flower]

tree!

[umbral canyon]

act 3 question: ||is the piece of the trap you get from weavenest atla just the weavelight? I re-explored the moss grotto area but didn't find anything||

[autumn kettle]

||no, there's a trap||

||it's called the soul snare||

[vagrant spruce]

||yeah it'll auto-update once you have the right thing||

[hot mango]

Major spoilers: ||Got my first Silksong ending- weaver queen! Now time to figure out how to get to act 3!||

[elfin ravine]

do more stuff

[lapis siren]

all silk hearts acquired

[hoary tulip]

The silk obtainer

[hot mango]

||currently trying to scale Mount Fay. It hard||

[torn sky]

Man, Muckroaches take some serious killing

[autumn kettle]

they're bastards

[torn sky]

...I just lost 800 rosaries to them...dammit

I guess I'm not getting that upgrade any time soon.

[umbral canyon]

act 3" ah man, you are in ||The Abyss|| once you get there huh

[hot mango]

I know the feeling- lost 500 rosaries today because I got reckless in exploring

[umbral canyon]

i hope this isn't where the game ends, i still have upgrades to get. missing a silk heart and a bunch of masks

[hot mango]

Question about the Ice Area- ||What the fuck is the Fay?||

[hoary tulip]

yes

[hot mango]

||How do I lore-n more about it?||

[hoary tulip]

it sure is

[brave flower]

birg

[autumn kettle]

||faywing is a friend :)||

[hoary tulip]

It could quite possibly be ||The Biggest Drapewing Ever||

[autumn kettle]

||nah, it's a higher being of some sort||

[hoary tulip]

oh, right, I guess yeah

doesn't seem to be of the pale tribe though

[autumn kettle]

||it provides an esoteric ability as a gift, is treated as some kind of eldritch god in the texts, and is uh...very birdlike||

[brave flower]

birg

[autumn kettle]

||i mean, there's no "pale tribe"||

||we have no real idea whether "pale" higher beings are something special, or just a specific magical category or divine domain or something||

||all of the pale beings so far have been related to light in some way, but that just means that they're related to light in some way||

||light, life, prescience, and providence seem to be the recurring themes with the pale beings||

||but there are other higher beings||

[umbral canyon]

not the ||void being|| and the ||nightmare king||

[autumn kettle]

||neither of those are in any way described as or considered "pale"||

||nor are they related in any way to the things i was talking about regarding the light-based higher beings||

[umbral canyon]

oh yeah sorry, i thought you said ||higher beings not pale||

[hoary tulip]

Unn is a higher being, right?

[autumn kettle]

||the nightmare heart, void-given-form, something involving lifeblood (presumably the lifeblood creature we see in the abyss, but that's just guesswork), unn, and now seemingly the faywing||

||are all other higher beings we've seen so far||

[hoary tulip]

||There seems to be a non-pale-monarch class of higher being that are largely more like big fuck-you animals with deeper wisdom and power||

||I wonder if the Palestag is related to this||

[autumn kettle]

||tbf the pale higher beings are mostly also big fuck-you animals||

[hoary tulip]

actually

not untrue

[autumn kettle]

||giant moth, giant Dune Sandw(y)rm, giant spider, with the white lady as a giant tree exception||

[hoary tulip]

||Well, the Pale King is weird because he voluntarily stepped down from big fuck-you animal to a much smaller vessel||

[autumn kettle]

||immortality and Some Other Weird Powers Beyond Natural Law are basically the only constants with the god-things we've seen||

||and we know that "Wyrm" is a species and also a higher being||

||so the pale king as "a Wyrm" is a generic-god||

||with an acknowledged "default powerset" of foresight and, iirc, form changing||

||and afaik none of the other gods we've seen have had any similar implications of being nonunique||

||but that could just be due to the surprising and specific lack of mysticism surrounding a few aspects of the pale king, since he developed hallownest as a place of learning||

||he might just...have known and as such preserved information on his species, where people like Silk, Unn, and the Radiance never did||

||but this might not be the case! i don't really think we have any way of knowing rn, and that's also quite interesting||

[umbral canyon]

well ||radiance specifically had a tribe, but whether they preceded her idk||

but it's been a while since i played the first game so i'm p;robably forgetting stuff

[autumn kettle]

||as in the moth tribe or as in other mothlike gods?||

[umbral canyon]

||moth tribe||

[autumn kettle]

||because as far as i know, the radiance specifically created the moth tribe||

[umbral canyon]

that would make sense tbh

i mean that's how ||unn|| did it

[hoary tulip]

we have several references to higher beings creating groups of favored bugs

||and a few references to specifically how they do it - imbuing their essence into lesser bugs and uplifting them||

[autumn kettle]

||oh, do we have others beyond just Silk?||

||neat! i didn't remember/realize that||

[hoary tulip]

||Pale King specifically granted the bugs of Hallownest their minds yeah||

[umbral canyon]

well that's what ||soul|| and ||void|| are right?

[autumn kettle]

||nah, as far as i know everything has soul||

||hornet also uses it, she just interprets it all through the lens of her Weaver's thread magic||

[umbral canyon]

yeah that'd make sense if silk was just ||'woven' soul|| and not something else

i mean the visual language is identical

[autumn kettle]

anyway, i am reminded that this is a very topical image to this conversation

which is mostly but not entirely HK spoilers

[hot mango]

||is it what the Weaver text was saying would kill sisters if they confronted it, or is that a different thing I missed? I kinda don’t wanna climb Mount Fay again||

||Only collectible I’ve gotten from it has been a mask shard so far||

[autumn kettle]

maybe?

that's the only collectible there (for now)

||but once you have wings the whole thing is like 10x easier||

[hot mango]

||And the Mask Maker technically. Weird how there’s another one||

[brave flower]

yeah whats the ||mask maker||'s deal

[hoary tulip]

We don’t and never will know

[autumn kettle]

we may some day

but for now

||"A wonderful thing to have, a face. Not a thing with which we all are blessed."||

||"To change a face; to conceal it fully within another... A powerful protection that is, but one with sad consequence. The original mind is destroyed, though those of striking will may still retain a sliver of that concealed self. "||

[thorny bear]

do we know if hornet's face is a mask?

i would assume so, since the health comes in masks

and said masks are exactly what her head looks like

[autumn kettle]

as far as i know we don't, but uh

yeah

for exactly that reason, i think we can assume

||actually wait i think the mask maker might say she already has one||

[hollow elm]

Huh, I wondered if that would have interactions (Far Field Act 1/2) ||Let out the beetle from the right side gate near Pilgrim's Rest, and broke the gear to the door lock. Resulted in a beetle fight in the rest stop.||

[hot mango]

||How do you even let the beetle out?||

||I’ve accidentally spoiled myself that you can “just do it” and have gotten no closer to an answer||

||So at this point I just wanna know||

[elfin ravine]

You just open the door before defeating it

[hot mango]

||No I mean how do you open the door that keeps getting banged on?||

[hollow elm]

||There's a hidden pathway under the Far Fields fast travel, under the right platform.||

[hot mango]

||It’s always the fast travel platforms how does this keep happening||

[umbral canyon]

act 3: ||are there any new areas to access besides the abyss?||

[autumn kettle]

||lost verdania||

||and a section of an earlier area for one of the dreamer bosses||

[umbral canyon]

man ok, this game just keeps fuckin going

i got the ||super jump|| and i thought to myself 'surely i'm close to the end'

[elfin ravine]

There's a few places you can access with your new ability too

[umbral canyon]

yeah and some of the ||maps have changed i see||

[elfin ravine]

Some yeah

[umbral canyon]

i like how this game managed to have a ||full metroid style world map, a dracula's castle, and an inverted castle type gimmick in one game||

[elfin ravine]

A few passages are blocked, but can usually be cleared from the other side again

Also there are a ton of bosses that become available

[umbral canyon]

huh. so it's worth retreading the whole map then.. i see there are new quests

[elfin ravine]

There are wishes pointing to several of them yeah

[hot mango]

I find the Silk Heart placements in game amusing.

Silk Heart 3: ||Ground Zero of the Haunting, the original experiment of using Silk to weaponize dead bodies, the agonized amalgamated minds of the haunted who were experimented on||

Silk Heart 2: ||The forged heir to the Weavers, woven into existence, neither bug nor beast nor higher being. A perfect Silk Construct||

Silk Heart 1: ||Some random beast that helps with fast travel lol||

[brave flower]

silk heart 1: ouppy

[hoary tulip]

you know

in retrospect and when looking at the difficulty discourse around Silksong

[tall night]

ok so im late to the party (still in act 1) and havent gotten to play much since release, im on like 12 hours maybe but i just beat || sister splinter first try and ooh shes cool, definiitely a Macleay's Spectre right? or something similar theres not 1to1 analogues||

[hoary tulip]

I chuckle remembering that people said False Knight was a psychotic difficulty spike and Hollow Knight's difficulty curve was fucked beyond recognition

[hoary tulip]

REAL

good catch

[autumn kettle]

they did?

that's...really funny, but also kind of sad

[hoary tulip]

yeah

False Knight and Soul Master

[tall night]

i think ||thread storm|| trivialized the battle somewhat but it was fun

[hoary tulip]

were considered omega filter bosses

[autumn kettle]

also cherry just nerfed her a couple days ago

dunno why, but

they did

[hoary tulip]

Soul Master had a Balteus-like reputation

[tall night]

||moorwing|| killed me for like 2 hours but ive been kinda locking in since, ii feel right in hornets body atp

[autumn kettle]

lol

[umbral canyon]

i'm gonna be real, i remember the original hollow knight being spikier in terms of difficulty, but that was literally almost a decade ago so it's probable i've just gotten good at videogames in the intervening period

[tall night]

i have never lost to balteus i have no clue, but from what i heard every boss in ac6 is a filter to someone lol

[umbral canyon]

the helicopter was my first filter but that was literally a 'learn how to play the game idiot' filter. same deal with ||bell beast|| for me

[autumn kettle]

yeah

[tall night]

my git good was that fucking ||bigant|| lol

[autumn kettle]

well, to the helicopter

my git guds were def judge, karmelita, and then the final boss

[brave flower]

so far my only major git gud was moorwing

[autumn kettle]

judge was quite a bit less than the other two, but those took some major locking the fuck in

was stuck on karmelita for like an hour and change

[tall night]

i just had to understand she is not the knight, change the way you move and think plus i wasnt using tools enough and had forgotten to buy the damage upgrade from forgedaughter, i beat moorwing rigiht after that

[autumn kettle]

and the final boss took me uh

like 3?

it was rough

god i love that boss though

[brave flower]

"learn to stop dashing directly into 2 contact damage: the boss"

[tall night]

i just need to recognize i get wayyy worse when im mad, honestly i feel they put the shells for tools in there as a sorta, ok ur out of shells, touch grass, farm for a sec

[tall night]

meeeeeee

[autumn kettle]

(that but more important for a crest)

[umbral canyon]

the game is definitely 'meaner' in the sense of deliberately tricking or trapping the player than the first one

but, as a dark souls 2 enjoyer i do not personally mind that

[brave flower]

architect's moveset feels way better than reaper's to me

[umbral canyon]

my only problem with architect is i can't deal with diagonal down attacks

[brave flower]

yeah

[umbral canyon]

even ||fully upgraded huntress||, which objectively kicks ass, doesn't feel as good as wanderer to me

[tall night]

reaper feels alriight but i hate the up slash, it feels like it doesnt exisit

[brave flower]

reaper up slash is an acquired taste

its really really good tho

[umbral canyon]

is reaper the one with the rising uppercut sprint attack?

[brave flower]

yes!

imo top 2 sprint attacks in the game

[tall night]

i shuryukened into moorwing to death at least onc wiith that lol

[brave flower]

holy SHIT that sprint attack is good

[umbral canyon]

||witch|| is good but i can't deal with no yellows

need my wall cling and compass, non-negotiable

[brave flower]

the other top 2 sprint attack is architect

bc it does one zillion damage when charged

[umbral canyon]

if i get a ||second yellow|| on the next vesticrest i'll switch over though

[brave flower]

i thoroughly dislike wanderer

[umbral canyon]

i'm a wanderer main lol

[brave flower]

its just too stubby

[umbral canyon]

feels the most like the first game so it's very natural to me

[tall night]

idk if ive been fucking around timee wise, but i just got wall cling at 12 or so hours but ive heard this gamee is big as fuckkkkkk

[brave flower]

architect a) has the coolest gimmick, b) has the best feeling attacks, and c) is unfathomably busted

its damage numbers are like

insanely odd

[umbral canyon]

architect is definitely second favourite, and i do use it when i know there's no down attack fimmicks coming up

[brave flower]

as far as i can tell, its base damage is lower but it hits twice per attack if you get a clean hit

i believe it is the only crest to do this, as this would likely screw up the silk skill formula for other crests

[autumn kettle]

beast also double hits

[brave flower]

oh right the sonic spindash

[autumn kettle]

no, also on its normals

[brave flower]

oh sick

[umbral canyon]

what are your tools with architect? i have uh, ||fireblade, cogbug, sawblade||

[autumn kettle]

the needle and the claw are separate hits & hitboxes

[umbral canyon]

all poison ofc

[brave flower]

im using sawblade tacks tri-pin

bc i dont have flint or cogflies yet

[umbral canyon]

oh yeah i still need triple needle. is tacks just the generic trap thing you get near the beginning or something else?

[brave flower]

its in craw lake

[hot mango]

One of the bosses they nerfed makes sense but she felt balanced so idk why she got nerfed.

[brave flower]

great tool to just chuck out when you have no idea where a flying boss is going to be in 1 second

[autumn kettle]

completely different, they're just called tacks

[hot mango]

Finally allows us to become the Aspid

[autumn kettle]

I'm of the opinion that both were incorrect nerfs, since moorwing was mostly uh

a major test of patience

[hot mango]

Yeah I agree there too

[umbral canyon]

yeah neither of those were problem bosses for me tbh

[autumn kettle]

has three attacks, each highly telegraphed with very wide openings

[umbral canyon]

both uber predictable and don't have any crazy reflex checks

[autumn kettle]

it just hits hard and so psyches people out

[tall night]

woagggg just encountered ||widow||so cool reminds me of madam butterfly from sekiro

[hot mango]

||Sister Splinter|| is the only one I outright disagree with though- Moorwing’s hitboxes can be a bit janky + the telegraphs have short windows so having everything be 2 damage might be a bit much for so early in the game

[autumn kettle]

||widow|| is a very fun early-game boss fight, yeah

[hot mango]

I’m not saying the nerf was necessary but I do see where it’s coming from

[autumn kettle]

i def understand em

[umbral canyon]

the bosses that have tilted me the hardest so far are: ||groal|| and ||savage beastfly mk 2||

[autumn kettle]

but i do disagree with em

[brave flower]

other banger ass baller ass tools that ive found include longpin, which pierces shields and parries; sting shards, which just hit hard and also sit there for a while; and good ol' straight pin, for poison uptime

[umbral canyon]

oh yeah speaking of the regular pins, are ||shakra's rings|| just a straight upgrade to them?

seem to have basically the same quantity and they bounce

[hot mango]

One boss I think needs a nerf, not in terms of damage but instead adding more time during telegraphs, is ||Last Judge. Considering how fast her attacks are and the fact she’s a big hitbox, jumpy, 2 damage boss, I feel like she could use just a tad more lag between her starting a telegraph and starting an attack||

[umbral canyon]

i had a lot of trouble telling some of her tells apart tbh

the ||censer throw and the charge|| have almost the same windup

[hot mango]

A couple extra frames per telegraph would be enough imo

[hot mango]

For me I kept confusing the ||Censer Throw and Censer Spin||

Being a test of patience like Moorwing is fine but having such fast attacks means the patience isn’t regularly rewarded

[umbral canyon]

uhh, what else? ||savage conchfly|| has super predictable patterns but man does it get fast

[brave flower]

nah her telegraphs are fine imo

[hot mango]

Then maybe it was just a skill issue on my end

[brave flower]

the whirl is a bit fast but thats The Last Judge Attack You Have To Respect

[umbral canyon]

i never had an issue with the ||spin|| so yeah it might be 2 separate skill issues at play here lol

[tall night]

she phase two delay put down the controllered gambited me 🙂 lmaooo

[brave flower]

every boss gets one of those

[hot mango]

||My issue with Savage Beastfly is that when it does the horizontal charge you don’t know what height it’s gonna be at- I found it near impossible to predict at times- and because it’s such an tall hitbox it can sometimes charge in a way where neither a jump nor standing on the ground allows you to dodge it.||

[umbral canyon]

what else? uh, ||bell eater|| i feel like i got lucky with and never mastered before i beat it

[umbral canyon]

not that one, the ||conchfly you fight in sands of karak||

[brave flower]

imo every boss is allowed one attack that is only just barely reactable as long as it's easy to guarantee that you're out of range of

[umbral canyon]

i might have the name wrong apologies

[brave flower]

so you can just play around it

[hot mango]

||I still think she throws it out so fast you literally have to be lucky to be far away enough to dodge it. If you’re a few pixels too close an instant dash will not allow you to dodge it, and that’s just too fast imo||

[brave flower]

you just have to respect it

thats the gimmick of the fight

you have to respect the whirl

[hot mango]

Fair enough. Could just be a me issue then

||I’ve heard horror stories about the final self destruct tho||

[umbral canyon]

does it count as a win if she catches you with it?

[elfin ravine]

Not if you die

[hot mango]

||Didn’t get me but because Hornet has such low I frames it can combo like 6 masks out of you fast||

[brave flower]

no

[umbral canyon]

oh lol

[hot mango]

Heard about a streamer who ended stream early because of that

Cause she has a really rough run back too

[brave flower]

the last judge runback kicks ass

im gonna be so honest

[umbral canyon]

now this is my Strongly Held Opinion, TLJ runback is actually fine tbh

[brave flower]

you feel so cool when you pull it off cleanly

[hot mango]

I’m not saying it’s bad, I’m saying it’s rough

As in “tough but balanced”

[brave flower]

i agree

i also think its the coolest shit ever

[hidden flame]

Yeah

[hot mango]

Last Judge is just a boss where when you do good you do really good, but she also makes you feel some of the worse feelings you can feel out of Silksong when you’re not doing as hot

[hidden flame]

TLJ is almost impossibly tough, but fair

[brave flower]

i feel like they do expect you to be using reaper

[umbral canyon]

||groal|| is the only runback that legitimately tilted me

[hot mango]

I used Beast personally

[umbral canyon]

and i mean, it's obviously designed to do that so i can't even be mad

[brave flower]

oh that might be why you struggled with the whirl

[elfin ravine]

My only dislike about Judge runback is still just thar one little fly thing near the beginning

The rest is fine

[brave flower]

beast is encouraged to play super fuckin greedy

[hot mango]

Mainly because a. It was new I wanted to use it, and b. The extra damage helped me not treat it as much as an endurance fight

[brave flower]

you can run straight past it and it wont aggro

[hot mango]

Oh I tried reaper for several attempts, but Beast was working better for me

[umbral canyon]

i have never actually used beast

i took one look at the range and went 'no thank you'

[elfin ravine]

So I've heard, never worked for me

[hot mango]

Actually I don’t remember if I won with Reaper or Beast

[brave flower]

yeah thats probably the reason the whirl felt too fast

bc beast makes you want to play greedier than you can really afford to in that fight

[hot mango]

I might’ve won with reaper then? I put a fair share of attempts in with both crests to be fair

[umbral canyon]

yeah a lot of bosses punish greed, i felt this a lot with ||grandma|| too

[hot mango]

Hunter too

[elfin ravine]

||Grand Mother|| is honestly a super easy boss especially because you can just hit her all the time with very little consequence

[hot mango]

I beat ||Grandma|| 2nd try w/ reaper B)

[umbral canyon]

which, i have to say, ||i realise grandmother silk is a fake final boss but she still felt very easy for a fake final boss. Sealed Vessel felt a lot harder||

[umbral canyon]

yeah exqctly

[hot mango]

I only got the ||bad ending|| thus far so I assume that’s intentional

[umbral canyon]

i did it second try with wanderer

[elfin ravine]

She's easier than quite a few bosses you need to beat to even get to her IMO

[hot mango]

||Lace 2|| was ROUGH

Cause I was trying to be patient with her, but she really taunts you if you try and play patient with her

Because you just cannot hit her

[umbral canyon]

what crest were you using at the time?

[elfin ravine]

And then act 3 it feels like almost every boss either zips around the arena constantly, blocks or parries you, or both

[umbral canyon]

i think wanderer excels against her cause of the fast attacks, and with long nail you have reasonable safety

[hot mango]

Initially Wanderer, then tried Hunter, then I swapped to Reaper and won

[umbral canyon]

huh! fair enough

[hot mango]

Wanderer just did not have the reach I needed

The massive downslash was huge when it came to punishing her

[umbral canyon]

longnail wanderer is arguably a waste of a slot in terms of pure dps, but it just feels 'right' to me

yeah her only real ||air move is the lateral jump|| and reaper would be good at dodging that, i see what you mean

[hot mango]

There’s long nail in this game?

[elfin ravine]

Yes

[hot mango]

I got ||Double Jump|| after getting my ||first ending|| so I’ll probably have to scrounge around for it

But it sounds like it kinda defeats the point of crests just a little

[umbral canyon]

wait really? i figured it would be impossible get there without that ability

[hot mango]

Nah it’s actually trivial

[umbral canyon]

but i'm so used to having it that idk what jumps i'd even be able to pull off without it anymore

[hot mango]

The literal only check for the ||Melodies|| is ||Grapple||

In contrast I had no idea ||Double Jump|| was literally right there

[umbral canyon]

surely you need ||clawline|| to get through ||cog core||?

[elfin ravine]

You do

[hot mango]

Yes that’s what I said

[umbral canyon]

oh, right, i thought you meant the wall hang mb

man, i went through all of act 2 thinking i'd never have to worry about rosaries again....they really do find ways to drain that shit from you

at least gaining them is fast at this point

[hot mango]

I do like how gaining all the ||Silk Hearts|| now allows me to ||regenerate exactly enough Silk for a Silk Skill at will now-|| is handy in exploration

For example, ||Insta Killing the Wraiths in The Mist, I’m coming back for them bitches||

The more I play Silksong the more I ask “HOW IS THERE MORE GAME IN THIS GAME????”

Cause I keep finding places that appeared in the trailers but are way later than I expected, and places that aren’t in the trailers showing up out of nowhere

||Do you think speed runs are gonna focus on the Weaver Queen ending? Even just any% speedruns hit a good number of areas in the game- meanwhile for Weaver Queen you can skip a ton of the game to get that ending||

[umbral canyon]

btw just making sure i understand the lineage here - ||grandma silk was herrah the beast's mother, correct?||

[hot mango]

Idk where you learned that but clearly I haven’t gotten there yet

[umbral canyon]

i mean i'm just inferring it logically

[hot mango]

Oh just from beating ||Grandma? No i didn’t get that||

[umbral canyon]

or not necessarily ||mother but she's gotta be somewhere in there||

[hot mango]

||I think she’s the higher being for all Weavers, much the same as the Radiance was for all moths. Moreover I think it’s implied in this game that Hornet is not the biological child of Herrah, but rather the surrogate mother of Hornet in the Weavers’ stead||

[granite hedge]

||I have a hunch... doesn't Grand Mother Silk look a bit artificial?||

[hot mango]

||Oh she is absolutely a fake higher being||

||Or a puppet of some kind||

[granite hedge]

||yeah. Like she was built by the Weavers or something||

[umbral canyon]

yeah there's something up with that but i haven't hit the true ending yet so idk if that's explored at all

[hot mango]

||Whiteward implies the Haunting wasn’t some supernatural phenomenon, but an artificial mechanism.||

[granite hedge]

||That or it was the pre-haunting citadel that made her in an attempt to control all of the silk in pharloom left by the weavers||

||using weaver magic and advanced cogwork technology||

||But they didn't understand that she'd do what every higher being wanted; reverence||

[umbral canyon]

i need to go back and read all the ||weaver testaments|| again

[hot mango]

||Based on the Needolin Get cutscenes, it feels like the Weavers are pseudo-voluntarily trying to maintain Grandmother Silk||

[umbral canyon]

that's not my impression tbh, if you look at the ||cage room in the cradle it sounds like they were hunted to extinction trying to sustain her||

[granite hedge]

||yep||

[hot mango]

I should stop clicking on spoilers from this point on because I don’t know what those are

[hot mango]

||Hence the “pseudo” in “pseudo-voluntarily”||

[umbral canyon]

oh no, you've seen them already, i just mean the ||little lore bits left behind by the weavers||

[hot mango]

ohhhh okay

||They kept talking about wanting to sustain her light and doing it all for her, so I assume there’s something obligating them to sustain Grandma Silk||

[elfin ravine]

||It's the other way around actually. The Weavers were basically uplifted by her. You can see that in the First Sinner memories ||

[hoary tulip]

||Grand Mother Silk existed before the Weavers did, she is not artificial||

[hot mango]

||They don’t seem happy about it, but they seem like they need to do it||

[hoary tulip]

||She just looks weird.||

[hot mango]

Now we’re getting into territory of “I haven’t seen this” proper

[umbral canyon]

right, so it sounds like ||she basically hunted her own tribe to extinction as part of an effort to control everything and be worshipped by everyone in pharloom||

[hot mango]

Cause I’ve done the near minimum to ||beat Grandma Silk and not kickstart act 3|| and very little else

[hoary tulip]

Spoilers All: ||The complete story is more like the Weavers created a system to lull her to sleep, then used her silk to uplift the bugs of Pharloom and get them to keep the system going forever while the majority of the Weavers ran for it to try and create a weapon capable of permanently killing Grand Mother Silk so that they could be free of her tyranny||

[hot mango]

Now I’m super curious- ||what could the actual final boss be? Absolute Grandma Silk? Someone else?||

No spoilers this is just me musing

[granite hedge]

ahh I see

[hot mango]

… ya know I didn’t realize how spoilery this would be until I finished reading it :P that’s on me, that’s my bad, this is my cue to exit the convo

[granite hedge]

ohhh ||No wonder the weaver silk upgrades keep on saying "Reclaim our kingdom" and all of that||

[hoary tulip]

More Spoilers All: ||The bugs of Pharloom came very close to succeeding at creating a permanent system that would keep Grand Mother Silk asleep indefinitely, but stumbled at the final step because their technique for staying alive indefinitely was, in fact, to inject Silk into their bodies to sustain them forever, and well, that didn't work out so good in many fun ways and then when the system started to fail even a little Grand Mother Silk had unlimited access to easily-coopted slaves||

[granite hedge]

||ohhh that makes a lotta sense.||

||The whiteward description did say the bugs injected with silk would be the first to fall||

[elfin ravine]

||ohhh, that's why they were so obsessed with keeping everyone alive, I didn't make that connection ||

[granite hedge]

i can't wait for mossbag to dissect this 👀

[hoary tulip]

||If it's not obvious, the song is what keeps Granny asleep, hence the entire purpose of the Citadel being to train choristers, maintain mechanical instruments, etc.||

[elfin ravine]

Yeah

[granite hedge]

OH

[granite hedge]

||No wonder it was in disarray by the time hornet came to pharloom||

[hoary tulip]

||It's all one enormous Weaver shellgame to have an infinite supply of singers to sing to Granny so she never wakes up, then the Weavers took their ball and left (for the most part)||

[granite hedge]

||And then it didn't work and the weavers were hunted down one by one?||

||I mean, the cages in the cradle do make sense||

||The various other weavers before hornet that got bound and transported to the Citadel||

[hoary tulip]

||It's unclear if the Pharloomians went hunting demi-Weavers themselves looking for a source of Silk, or if Grandmother Silk went looking for Weavers after she started to wake up to cultivate a new priest caste, or what||

[elfin ravine]

||I think it's Grand Mother doing it ||

[granite hedge]

||idk if silk mom wanted more weavers to make more silk. She is the source of it all, so I assume she did it out of revenge||

[elfin ravine]

||Since Lace's whole deal is being jealous that Silk wants Hornet more than her||

[granite hedge]

ahh ||She has mommy issues||

[hoary tulip]

||Hornet says the bugs she fought and lost to who caged her were Silk-enhanced puppets in her Hunter's Journal iirc, but also if that's the case why did they write orders to each other when they're all zombies||

[granite hedge]

||Perhaps she's wrong? Or that the haunting isn't a hive mind like the infection||

[hoary tulip]

||The other way to interpret it is that the Haunting doesn't directly possess people, yeah||

[elfin ravine]

||Hornet is also seemingly bound by the silk inside the cage, and the seal is broken by one of those white butterflies we often see with Lace or inside the cogworks ||

[umbral canyon]

||It seems to affect different bugs in different ways, but it does keep the citadel's workers at their jobs for example||

[granite hedge]

yeah

||It doesn't completely control them as it does posses them to be undying, immortal slaves bound to their duties forever||

[umbral canyon]

But that raises the question - if ||the song is what keeps grandma asleep, why would she maintain the infrastructure that keeps that running? I mean what does grandmother silk actually want, besides a loyal child in Lace?||

[hoary tulip]

alright so that's one question resolved the next is why ||did Grand Mother Silk need Hornet|| and the answer is ||lmao maybe you shouldn't Bind that Hornet, have you considered that might be a bad call||

[hoary tulip]

okay so this is where I verge on [speculah]

because my interpretation is wack

[granite hedge]

||I mean, the descriptions for the underworks bugs say that their tools are grimy and dirty||

[hoary tulip]

and I accept this

[elfin ravine]

||I think Hornet binding her is actually exactly what she wanted, yeah||

[hoary tulip]

||I think that the purpose of hunting Weavers is to transfer Grand Mother Silk from vessel to vessel and that she's trying to find a body that can host her primordial Silk without breaking down||

[elfin ravine]

Yeah

[hoary tulip]

||and that she is LITERALLY the Silk and not that body||

[granite hedge]

oooh

||Kinda like decorping from lancer||

[umbral canyon]

That does kinda make sense tbh!

[elfin ravine]

That's my assumption yeah

[hoary tulip]

This would explain many things, like ||why every other Higher Being needed a vessel of some sort to contain them but not Grand Mother Silk who appears to manifest in her primordial form to us||

which is that ||this isn't her primordial god form, this is just what it looks like when a demi-Weaver body has tried and failed to contain her for too long||

[granite hedge]

oh SHIT

[umbral canyon]

Ok, you know what else I want to know? ||Wtf is the weaver nest in the abyss about? Were they also trying some Pale King shit?||

[hoary tulip]

||It also explains what Lace is, which is that she is to Grand Mother Silk what Pale King is to the Wyrm except that instead of Grand Mother Silk taking that body for herself, she just let it have its own life and consciousness||

[hoary tulip]

||They were cooking.||

nah I'm just joking around but seriously

[elfin ravine]

||Nobody can resist fucking around with the abyss it seems ||

[hoary tulip]

||I reckon the Weavers tried LITERALLY every idea available to them before concluding that Grand Mother Silk is fucking indestructible and they're gonna have to come back to this with better ideas later||

[granite hedge]

||What about unn? Or the pale king? They don't have vessels||

[hoary tulip]

||Pale King DOES have a vessel, it's The Pale King. He birthed a vessel inside of himself for his own consciousness and then shed his primordial form as a Wyrm.||

As for Unn, who even knows what Unn is. That shit is wack.

[umbral canyon]

||so that must mean that herrah the beasts bargain with the pale king was part of the same plot to build a weapon that could destroy grandmother silk huh||

[hoary tulip]

Highly likely, yes

||Otherwise, why would Herrah agree to a suicide pact that prolongs a kingdom she doesn't have a stake in and ensure Hornet get the finest combat training and education from three queens of the land||

basically, if you know what "metroid" means in the context of Metroid Dread's story

Hornet is the ultimate Metroid

[umbral canyon]

Man all of this means that ||the weavers are basically the bene Gesserit||

[elfin ravine]

Kinda yeah

[hoary tulip]

sisters, spiders, I'm out of fucking ideas, let's leave this to a future Weaver who has a better idea than me

the future weaver in question:

[granite hedge]

shes getting backshots by a cartographer

cough

sorry

[hoary tulip]

the Pale King wasn't a cartographer?

[elfin ravine]

Act 3 spoilers
||I do also love how when Hornet complains to them, the snail shamans are just like "c'mon you knew we're snails, you should have expected we'd try some void bullshit, we just can't help ourselves" ||

[granite hedge]

||Yep! She shoulda known better when dealing with those shamans||

[granite hedge]

oh no I mean hornet and Shakkra

[hoary tulip]

||actually deranged shit. Hornet went "what the fuck is wrong with you people" and their only defense was "we are literally insane, what did you expect"||

[elfin ravine]

Yeah

It's hilarious

[hoary tulip]

yes but Herrah and Pale King having canonical sexual intercourse was ACTUALLY the brilliant idea that they came up with

[granite hedge]

yep!

pale king FUCKS.

and that's... debatably a good thing

on one hand: Hornet silksong was born

on the other

uhhhh

[hoary tulip]

wait a second

this but with the Pale King

[granite hedge]

YEAH

[elfin ravine]

The Pale King has two stats
Imperialism, and Horny

[hoary tulip]

and judging by his exploits they're both maxed out

[elfin ravine]

Yeah

[granite hedge]

lmaoooo

[sinful stirrup]

act 2 end? boss: HARD

[hoary tulip]

whomst'd've is you fighting

[sinful stirrup]

||Lace Rematch||

[hoary tulip]

okay

I'm gonna give you some advice

||Unless you have a specific quest, which you will know exactly what that quest is and what it means, I suggest proceeding directly down the progress route once you beat Lace II||

||If you DO already know what's going to happen next: turn around and go do as much not-story as you have available to you||

[tall night]

took a shell and rosary farming break but beat|| widow|| on my 5th, very cool and tight fight this game is fun, i think moorwing had me in an i suck thiis game isnt fun spiral when i ifought it but when i struck a rythym and realiized how she handles sinice themthe gamefeel has felt more natural, the last fiight had me thinking oh waiiit this rules

ii think in boss fights i have a tendency to conserve tools still and i die once or twiice and then just like oh if i diie i dont have to conserve it just throw that shit and wiini

i like-a|| the poison||

though i wonder how it really ffects dps

[green bone]

||Savage Beastfly|| round 2 beaten

[tall night]

do relics have much use in ithis game or since rosaries exisit or should ii just hand em over they were useful to store in HK1 but

[green bone]

they give you quite a lot of rosarier and also have actual lore this time around

[tall night]

my point is like beyond their use case from giivinig them to my new favorite npc and getting the lore there, theres nothing else i need to worry about?

[umbral canyon]

nothing that i've found so far (and i'm well into act 3)

[green bone]

this is hilarious (Act 2)

[hollow elm]

Cleaned out end of Act 2? ||Lace rematch felt a bit BS till I busted out my own tricks (venom tacks), then she fell over. Made me switch back to Wanderer for better frame data.||

[tall night]

tacks genuinely do make me feel liike a 10000 iq bug when you realize where the bosses tend to sit

[hollow elm]

I fully expect they'll get nerfed or something, but they're pretty niche considering usable areas/enemies, and the sheer shard cost for spamming them.

[green bone]

Where the fuck is my courier bro 😭

[fathom shadow]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/882624120607629353/1416406635127115825/xDCDiSCs3MnMl50N.mp4

[solar elbow]

late game area?
has anyone else found ||nameless town?||

||hidden area after a platforming challenge above the cradle||

[torn sky]

Why devs? Why did I have to pay for a bench then go on an adventure to make the bench work? That's just mean. XD

[unreal spruce]

Oh yeah, that's one of the most frustrating parts

[torn sky]

I was sitting there with 1 HP and full of maggot gunk going 'Well, I guess I'm going back to the previous area rather than trying to sort this'

[hollow elm]

Kinda surprised by how reliable (Act 1? Tool) ||Threefold Pin|| is, though I guess it makes sense with how awful it is on the receiving end.

[inner fog]

Yup, cool place

you try ||playing the needolin in the house on the right?||

it should ||drop you the surface memento after a bit||

[solar elbow]

||I now need to go back up there :/||

[dreamy scarab]

Blasted Steps: The ||Last Judge|| is a cool fight. Feels very beatable, but I can see why people don't like the runback. I've found one little shortcut, but it only cuts out one part of one screen so it still feels like I'm missing something.

[rose granite]

||The only shortcut is the L shaped tunnel, so you've probably found it. Luckily enough it cuts out the most annoying part, but the rest of the run remains.||

[dreamy scarab]

Thanks! ||You definitely saved me from a lot of paranoid searching 😂 ||

[hot mango]

Haven’t found that yet ||but I suppose that’s how you continue to get use out of Rosaries after buying everything||

[hot mango]

They still had lore in Hollow Knight but the text was “read it or miss it” from Lemm

In Silksong you can go back and read it whenever and get to see specifically what the lore items are and say

[hot mango]

||Widow|| is absolutely my fav fight in the game. Took me several tries but ||she demands the same patience Skill Check bosses like Moorwing demand while also not doing 2 damage constantly and being speedy in a fun way, plus her attacks feel really fun to dodge + her second phase spamming 2 specific attacks in her arsenal felt very Soul Tyrant- one of my fav bosses from HK||

Okay well one of my fav bosses, making a lot of progress into act 2 has made me find some other fun ones

[rose granite]

Late-game spoiler ||Ballow just broke out this, should I be worried?||

[hot mango]

Tbh, I think every boss in Silksong I’ve fought in hindsight has been not that bad

[hot mango]

Deep Docks Simple Key Spoiler- ||God I cannot WAIT to figure out what the Diving Bell and Flintstone bucket are used for- something about the Diving Bell just screams “Birthplace Style Plotpoint” to me||

[brave flower]

is that why ||sherma could pacify frenzied pilgrims||?

[hot mango]

||I also can’t wait to explore The Mist. Now that I have all 3 Silk Hearts I can regen up to a full Silk Storm and take care of the Wraiths easily||

[hot mango]

Fuck those bastard

[lapis siren]

i invested into a magma bell for the deep docks simple key

and man

that basically turns off the entire areas main hazards lol

[hot mango]

Also, question to y’all who beat Lace 2 (trailers showed a second fight it’s not a spoiler), ||At the moment of beating her- because I haven’t explored enough after beating her to know for sure- did any of y’all buy that she was actually dead? I personally think she was faking it, like no way she just died||

[hot mango]

It does but it’s still chaotic enough to kick your ass imo

[lapis siren]

oh its incredibly chaotic

i nearly died in the arena

||the boss fight was veryyyy straightforward tho||

[hot mango]

The enemy arenas in Silksong are so much more common and so much more brutal than they were in Hollow Knight

[hot mango]

||I died to it like. Twice. Because I got reckless. Silk Skills are very good at dealing with adds I don’t wanna deal with.||

[lapis siren]

yeh lol

i had the advantage of nail 4 though, as well as max silk hearts

[hot mango]

I’m still struggling to find Needle 4, ||the gourmand quest is long||

[lapis siren]

it is

it requires exploring most of the map

[hot mango]

||So far I “have” 3 of the ingredients- I’m waiting to deliver the meat last because it’s the hardest part- so I’m just missing the worm and one other thing||

||Tho I didn’t realize beating Lace added more Citadel Enemies so I guess that was a bad idea||

[lapis siren]

is it the ||worm and crust nut||

[hot mango]

||That’s it! The Mossberry Brew and the Cellar Nectar were easy enough to figure out the location of, but I think I either need to explore the rest of Sinner’s Road or Bilewater to find the worm. And the Crust Nut is likely in a place I haven’t found yet||

[lapis siren]

when my friend entered the area that last one was in he literally said "damn this region is so crusty"

[hot mango]

||Either that or The Marrow/Deep Docks||

[lapis siren]

also if you talk to the old man he gives hints

[hot mango]

I don’t need hints to know how to rock

Man I feel like when I first got the ||Needle Hookshot|| I was thinking “ah, this isn’t gonna be very useful outside it’s designated puzzles I feel.” Now I use it constantly in combat it’s so good for Aerials and Closing Gaps

[lapis siren]

also goated in general movement

[hoary tulip]

It literally solves half of the enemies with “tricky movement” in the game

[autumn kettle]

harpoon is extremely good

in every scenario

[hoary tulip]

I was struggling super bad with a specific fight arena

And then I was like wait

I can just harpoon all the flying enemies

[autumn kettle]

yuh-yeet solves all

harpoon the fliers!

harpoon the heavies with big weapons!

they can't swing before you're in range if you fucking fling yourself at them before they swing!

[lapis siren]

i have mixed opinions about the quest to slaughter and prepare the meat of chorister bugs

[autumn kettle]

yummy silk-infused flesh of the clergy

[hoary tulip]

A mother’s love for her children knows no bounds

[lapis siren]

late act 2 spoilers but check out this little easter egg

[rose granite]

||I do find it interesting how some song lyrics have silk behind them, which I presume means they're new dialogue to an old song||

noticed it in a few instances

[lapis siren]

yes! this occurs after finishing the questline, its cool

i was more referring to the ending

poshanka

[umbral canyon]

It might actually be the best movement ability I've seen in a game honestly, or at least the best non-busted one

[hot mango]

I thought it’d be redundant but the map design really helps make it feel fun

Plus it’s just a lot more capable than the Air Dash

[green bone]

What does the ||maggot effect actually do?||

[elfin ravine]

||prevents the next time you heal basically, it just gets rid of the maggots instead of healing||

||also I believe it drains your silk over time? Or maybe that's only while inside the water||

[hot mango]

||It does drain your silk over time||

||It’s also very icky gross||

[lapis siren]

ah

i see,,

tree

[umbral canyon]

Tree.

[autumn kettle]

tree :)

[umbral canyon]

You also have access to the ||secret bad ending now||

[hot mango]

Question about the ||Chapel of the Architect- what’s in the hidden room in the chapel? I didn’t realize the door would lock behind me when I left to equip some tools so now I can’t go back and check. Really hope it’s just money||

[lapis siren]

shards

[elfin ravine]

||shouldn't be anything important at least||

[hot mango]

Okay good

[elfin ravine]

so probably just shards, money, or lore

[hot mango]

If it was Lore then I’m pissed

[green bone]

Get me out of Silent Hill brp

[hot mango]

If it was Shards or Money I’m fine

[lapis siren]

its shards

[hot mango]

Really don’t like how the Chapels lock the door behind you when you leave

[brave flower]

the fog is coming the fog is coming the fog is coming

[hot mango]

Pro tip- ||equip Weaverlight if it you have it + all 3 Silk Hearts||

Shoulda censored that out the gate but oops

[fathom willow]

(Late optional act 3 zone) Does anyone know if there is a way to get back to ||Old Verdania|| after beating the boss there?

[elfin ravine]

I don't believe so

[fathom willow]

Dang 😔

[elfin ravine]

||but there's no collectibles in there, and when you beat the boss it completes the journal for all the enemies in there too ||

[hot mango]

I feel like Silksong takes the “find random key item with no idea what it does” factor of open world games and turns it up to 11

[fathom willow]

||Ye, I just noticed the journal entries, that's nice||

[autumn kettle]

wait it does?

ough

i farmed them all manually

[autumn kettle]

there are like zero random keys with no clues

[hot mango]

Just cause they have a clue doesn’t mean I know what to do with it, like ||what the hell does the Clockwork Heart do?||

[elfin ravine]

||look around in the area you know has clockwork ||

[hot mango]

||My best guess is Thirteenth Architect might be able to do something with it, but there’s also Forge Daughter who hasn’t been relevant since I bought out her whole stock||

[autumn kettle]

consider its name

and then the places with similar names

[hot mango]

||See I assume that would be it but I feel like I’ve explored all of clockwork tower so I have no idea where to begin there||

[green bone]

Act 2 optional item thingy ||HOLY SHIT YOU GET A FUCKING GUN LMAO?||

[hot mango]

To be fair, I wasn’t complaining

[autumn kettle]

explore again

[hot mango]

I’m actually a big fan of the “random key item” trope in games, it’s fun

[elfin ravine]

Multiple even 😛
Depending on what you count