Warhammer and Such

[vital barn]

it is, in its defence, quite pretty, and also predates Custodes being a 40k army as opposed to a 30k list that had one plastic kit

[rocky shale]

Oh yeah no i know its origin

And I do like the model visually

[tired cairn]

Nothing wrong with the model other than it being Forgeworld means it is in grave danger of being Legendsed in the future

[rocky shale]

Model looks great, its more that its $170 for 215pts in an otherwise cheap army to field

Thats my only point

[vital barn]

damn, that's almost as bad as your average Admech unit

[upper bluff]

Custodes has so many cool units that are literally collectors items

[tired cairn]

Nothing is wrong with the model. Other than it being likely Legendsed in the future and costing $170 now. And being Resin. I'll come in again

[upper bluff]

Like the $500 drop ship

[rocky shale]

Exactly!

FW did make a lot of very pretty resin bricks

[vital barn]

you can play all of those in 30k, which is still a real game, it's not really a did

[rocky shale]

Well Forge World by name is dead

[vital barn]

Forge World getting rolled up has just resulted in all of those being utterly massacred in terms of cross-system compatibility

I hope at least a few of the sculptors managed to stay on because they made good stuff

and with the exception of some of the new Krieg and Necromunda nothing has really triggered the brain cells the same way as the old 30k ranges

[sour sequoia]

Caladius is legitimately a very good tank

[silk verge]

i can hear the pillar men music in my brain

[hollow laurel]

I was gonna say not topless and oiled up enough but there's the abs.

Here you go.
https://youtu.be/-W8MBjTk2E8

[silk verge]

i like how they even come in squads of 3 dudes

[stark cypress]

I have a question

Why are GW models expensive

Like, my LGS had a box of five guys for $70.

[floral herald]

One part made in Britain, two parts luxury good and they can

[stark cypress]

True

[runic swallow]

Captive market

They know people like the cool models and can only use official ones in sanctioned tournaments (mostly)

It’s not like Napoleonics where everyone can have a range of French infantrymen

[stark cypress]

It's just so weird though. Like, I can get a box of IG proxies half a price of a 10 squaddie box.

And that half price box also lets me build three 10 squaddies.

[rocky shale]

Are you talking like 3d printed resin proxies?

[stark cypress]

Nah, like Wargames Atlantic

I can use Deathfield kits to make either Krieger or Cadian proxies.

[rocky shale]

I think ultimately the answer is what Cyan said

[stark cypress]

Yeah

[rocky shale]

1. Made in the UK
2. Its luxury plastic from a brand that also makes the wargame youre using them for

So like, rules match, quality is generally good, models are detailed

[runic swallow]

Also, the whole tournament rules thing

[stark cypress]

Yeah, that's pretty true

[rocky shale]

Also that if it applies to you

[stark cypress]

But they're like way too detailed those models.

Do they really need all those gribblies?

[runic swallow]

It’s flexing tbh

And also intentionally making recasters life hard

[rocky shale]

Id expect that market research shows people like more detailed models

[runic swallow]

Some of them are really, really cool

[rocky shale]

If im not batch painting a bit unit then the small details are fun

[stark cypress]

Yeah, they can be.

Though I wish some parts were just pre-assembled already.

I hate doing the antenna for Tau helmets.

I hate it, I loath it.

[runic swallow]

Also I think a lil bit of going mad with power from getting access to CAD software (though that was more of a 2010s thing)

[rocky shale]

Oh yeah in terms of assembly there are occasionally some parts that feel like they're separate just to make assembly take longer

[stark cypress]

I know

[vital barn]

the Death Guard refresh especially was clearly "hey there's a blank space on the CAD model"

they've gotten slightly past that these days, albeit not completely

[floral herald]

Stuff like that’s always gonna be separate because of how moulds are shaped

[pale narwhal]

also the weird parts that are like, half a torso, 2/3s of one leg, and half an arm

which make kitbashing harder :(

[stark cypress]

Okay, that makes sense

[thin ibex]

Ultimately there's a lot that goes into pricing, and it's arguable that the prices right now aren't fully justified, but they do sell a high quality product, it is an incredibly well known brand, global economics comes into play, and manufacturing comes into play

[runic swallow]

Also GW doesn’t do a lot of tax avoidance stuff other companies do (allegedly)

[floral herald]

There’s not much to allege there since most of that’s public record

[gray basalt]

Well and if people are willing to pay it then they will raise prices

I stopped buying GW awhile back

Can't afford them

Honestly tho if you don't like the price don't buy the product unless you are looking at doing tournaments (my condolences if you are) there are other ways to get the models

Or just play other war games

That's what Ive been doing

Love me some Dropfleet

[runic swallow]

Try historicals, you surely won’t regret it
(You won’t, they’re fun)

[thin ibex]

Yeah the real truth is if the proxies are more affordable and you like them more, get those, unless you want to play in GW tournaments

[gray basalt]

A 3d printer is a great investment also

[sour sequoia]

There is something to be said for the fact GW genuinely puts out extremely high quality sculpts

Its not something you notice until you go play other games but legitimately any box made in the last 20ish years is display piece potential

[gray basalt]

I wouldn't display a Primaris

But also I wouldn't be mad if the higher prices were going to the artists that produce the models but from my understanding most of that extra money goes into share holder pockets

[junior summit]

yeah GW's sculpts are remarkably good

I compare that to even warmachine and while PP has gotten better it's not the same

[gray basalt]

Steamworks or wtv now

They bought out privateer press awhile ago

[junior summit]

oh right steamforged

[gray basalt]

Assuming they hold up their promises they are doing good work

[junior summit]

yeah I kinda dropped out of warmachine because my entire collection is legacy

but I like the new sculpts

[gray basalt]

Well they said they want to make all the old sculpts buyable again

Made to order and what not

[junior summit]

yeah but then I have to decide whether I want to get in it etc

[gray basalt]

Yeeee

[junior summit]

though I will say that the overall reduction in model counts is heartening

I've still got two units of unpainted iron fangs because fixing their lances is going to be a pain

the lances are bendy

so fixing that is a pain no matter how to split it

[gray basalt]

For sure

Bendy lances is a curse no game can escape

[junior summit]

I've actually still got a bunch of unpainted models because I'm a lazy so and so and because I insist on painting every model at max detail

but one day

[gray basalt]

Godspeed

[gray basalt]

My least two favorite Primarchs tormenting each other, excellent

[charred bridge]

Dorn's revenge is Dorn gets married (to his duty), invites Russ to wedding, its a dry wedding.

[desert jay]

In addition to all the other stuff, I think there's also one part GW shoveling money into other projects like TV shows and video games that they're okay with taking a bit of a loss on if it mean more people get into 40k and buy models

But also y'know, like... the market will bear it, there's always dozens of sold out kits at any time

[vital barn]

I still don't know why you have it in for Dorn so much

he's extremely boring but by Primarch standards he doesn't seem so bad

[quaint compass]

As if Russ wouldn't be bringing his own drinks

or have a stash in the truck his crew came in on

[vital barn]

https://www.warhammer-community.com/en-gb/articles/wr9feecy/assault-terminators-are-an-unstoppable-force-and-an-immovable-object-in-one-indomitable-package/

Nice update of the old termies

[junior robin]

finally, cyberbeards

[floral herald]

Oh damn that’s a cool box I can’t lie

[desert jay]

10e truly is the Termie edition

[junior robin]

if only the chaos ones where this lucky

[sour sequoia]

I think the help there is chaos marines still have plenty of genuinely batshit high durability melee

There’s not loyalist possessed or anything

[junior robin]

I just want them all to be able to have twin lightning claws accursed weapons

[desert jay]

I think DG termies are honestly amazing, and CSM ones are pretty good

TSons are "fine, I guess", but then there's just a case of "aren't you forgetting someone?"

[floral herald]

CSM termies have always been the kinda weird great value termies

Cheap and functional

[jaunty dawn]

Termi ancient is cool

[misty violet]

White Scars but not Iron Hands on the transfer sheet got an actual laugh out of me, but these do look great

I love the Terminator respirator without the full helmet look

[untold swallow]

new Terminator Ancient

https://tenor.com/view/eric-andre-eric-andre-lets-go-gif-21851697

[untold swallow]

https://youtu.be/C3TBJKBjErk

Also I am sure this man is happy about termi ancient getting a new model

cuz that means most likely the rules aren't going the way of old yeller

[past sphinx]

i gotta like

convert all those dudes

[tired cairn]

"new Terminator ancient" is a funny phrase

[untold swallow]

lel

[desert jay]

Fun fact, there's two unrelated etymologies of "ancient"

[tired cairn]

Wut

Do they have different ultimate meanings?

[desert jay]

Yes

[past sphinx]

semantic range baby!

[desert jay]

Ancient in the usual sense, meaning old, comes from the Latin "ante"

[jaunty dawn]

Is it the same origin as ensign

I think

[desert jay]

Ancient in this sense, meaning a flag/banner/standard or the bearer thereof, comes from the Latin "insignia"

[tired cairn]

This is a silly etymology Google

[desert jay]

And yeah ensign is a step in that chain

[untold swallow]

as in signifer, tech?

oh signifer somehow ends up as ensign, don't it

[desert jay]

Insignia -> ensign -> ancient

[jaunty dawn]

Bringing ensign back

[desert jay]

Ensign (rank) is related though, because carrying flags around used to be a job for junior officers

[untold swallow]

God I forgot he names his dudes after patrons and he named his Ancient Hobag

Fucks sake

XDDDD

[hollow laurel]

Wait, Ancient can be used to mean flagbearer? I thought it was being used to mean elder.

[untold swallow]

So, it often is just

both

An Ancient in 40k is the flagbearer because he is old, past his prime

He holds no great power weapon (unless ur a templar but stfu) and wins no great combat glories, for he has been judged as too slow for an attempt at winning some to go well

[hollow laurel]

Mhm, mhm. Makes me think of the triarii.

[untold swallow]

Instead of being thrown to the wolves, he is given the great honor of hefting the Company or even Chapter banner, and is an adviser to the Company Captain or Chapter Master

ehhhh Triarii are more analogous to vets in terminator armor imo

They're slightly past their prime, but make up for it with the fact their killing edge is still quite honed

[hollow laurel]

True.

[floral herald]

Ancients aren’t necessarily old they’re just a capable veteran who’s good enough to bear the standard

And usually one of the most vicious bastards in the [unit] since it’s gotta stay up

[untold swallow]

While I get your point I feel the distinction is one without a difference

A veteran space marine is almost always also an old fucking man lmao

[floral herald]

The difference is that ancients are not past their prime

[untold swallow]

Like, Titus is not a 1st Company veteran

Demetrian Titus

[floral herald]

He probably passed through 1st company on the way to a position in chapter command

[desert jay]

SM Ancients go way back in the game, and I'll bet any indication that Ancients are older than other 1st company guys is probably by later writers who did not know the second meaning of the word

[floral herald]

But direct promotion from a battle company isn’t that rare either so idk his story

[untold swallow]

From what I understand he was just 2nd Company's Chad Thundercock and Calgar liked the cut of his jib and made him the youngest Cap in smurf history

[floral herald]

Looking at Wikipedia he made his way to 2nd company veteran status and was promoted from there after Biel Tan got his predecessor

Lexicanum I mean

[untold swallow]

ye, looking at the same

[floral herald]

The first company is in some ways a dumping ground for mean as fuck space marines with no aptitude for leadership

Which, admittedly

I don’t think Titus is a particularly good captain

[past sphinx]

they had power fists once goddamn it!

[floral herald]

So maybe they should stuff him in 1 coy or some kind of honor guard

[untold swallow]

by 'great' I meant master-crafted or relic lol

[upper canopy]

This is why the Boltgun guy is there

[tired cairn]

Maybe it's a subtle pun

Which would not be typical of 40k, granted

[vital barn]

30k Heralds are funny because they are Centurion grade, they're pretty scary banner bearers, but the banner rewards them for getting in challenges with enemy HQs and they only have average stats as HQs go, which results in:

[floral herald]

Maybe they’d win more duels if they set the huge fucking flag down and fought with both hands

[tired cairn]

They are all about kill stealing

[vital barn]

they can't put the flag down, that would deprive them of the aura farming VPs

Some Legions can make pretty mean Heralds, admittedly

termie/biker for more durability and a nice big thunder hammer, World Eaters/Night Lords legion for more choppy,make him your 2IC with Paragon of Battle for actual duelist level weapon skill

buff with librarian/world eater battle-brothers perk, etc.

basically just spend something like 150-200pts on rigging the fight so hard it qualifies for the Royal Navy ship rating system

[runic swallow]

I thought the ratings was based on number of guns, is it based on sails?

Or is it both

[vital barn]

It's number of guns, but it has to be a properly rigged ship to get on the board at all

Besides, he's a space marine with a bolt pistol, so we know he has three guns exactly

one larger than the others because it has to hold up the flag

[rocky shale]

Terminator ancients are extra silly to me because like

They're this teleport assault elite unit of veterans... But we gotta dedicate one guy to this giant flag

[vital barn]

look, that flag gives +2 to combat res, you want that

the flag in the praetorian command squad in 30k also gives a +1 bonus to your character's go-first roll in a challenge, so the best way to run a Herald is to go double flag

one flag on the herald, one slightly smaller flag on the squad banner bearer

On a completely unrelated note, I dug up an old mug that tiny me painted a shitty pikachu on when I was... about ten? and then unfortunately it was washed off in the dishwasher when my mother put it in the usual pile of stuff to wash

I have promised dear mother of mine that I will freehand another one back on

going to have to get some proper sealant to waterproof my replacement pokemon

that or I paint her another one every year

she demands that my terrible childhood art be faithfully restored

[floral herald]

Lowkey might be easier

Food safe durable sealant is kinda hard

Maybe it’s gotten better

[vital barn]

I believe it does exist, a friend makes fishtank decorations and you have to be almost as careful about those because some fish will keel over dead if a single mildly suspicious molecule gets into the water

but it might be the kind of thing that takes like a month to cure properly

[floral herald]

Those also might not be dishwasher safe

[vital barn]

ah, never mind, some people make an epoxy that is specifically designed for sealing stuff to ceramic that you're going to eat off of and shove in the dishwasher and the FDA has an approved list

the wonders of fractal hobbies

although yes, it does take seven million years to cure

[floral herald]

Oh nice

[vital barn]

on another unrelated note, I quite like this bit where Calgar is talking to G-man and he has to suppress the urge to go "that's a sacred relic! put that down!" because Guilliman is just casually sitting in his old chair at his old desk going "hey they kept my stuff"

Though Calgar had seen the primarch in stasis and was thus aware of how physically large he was, the primarch's artefacts had always seemed bigger somehow than the being they were made for, as if sized for a titan from a greater age. They were sacred relics all, revered by successive generations of Ultramarines. The Ultramarines did not pray to their primarch, nor venerate him in an overtly religious way. They did not believe either the Emperor or His son divine, but an aura of holiness clung to his effects nonetheless, and it had been the habit of many Chapter Masters to meditate in the museum vaults, looking for inspiration from the things that had known the touch of their gene-sire.

To the Primarch, the throne was just another piece of furniture, a possession reclaimed, as Ultramar was. He used it unthinkingly. Even now he was back, his casual attitude toward these ancient relics, although they were his, offended something in Calgar.

It was a ridiculous notion.

[desert jay]

Silly Calgar, don't you know that chair gets slightly more sacred every time Guilliman sits down in it?

[vital barn]

Ultramarines quartermaster making absolute bank trading all these new sacred relics to all the other chapters

[desert jay]

But yes it's an amazing passage

[pine matrix]

It's lucky Guilliman isn't the sort of Primarch to rest his feet on the table, Calagar might pop a service stud out

[vital barn]

to be fair I have had similar feelings sometimes, when I was an undergrad I was shown around this beautiful microscopy lab by a professor when I asked him if he had something that could study the structure of these lichens I was working on and after giving me the very cheerful look-at-my-cool-toys tour he just went "here's this [ridiculously expensive] bit of kit across the room from the electron microscope, it should be about right if you press these four buttons, good luck" and left

easily worth more than all the other equipment I've used in my life combined, but obviously there's no point having it sit there doing nothing

[pine matrix]

It is really cool passage, these things given so much reverence and symbolic meaning over the last 10,000 were really just...things. Just like many things in museums really

[untold swallow]

Would giving my scout equivalents sticky objectives instead of infiltrator be too much?

[upper bluff]

I'm not an expert on balance but I don't think that's too crazy

Like my Skitarii have scouts 6" and sticky objectives and they're fine

[sour sequoia]

Yes

There’s 3 things in the game that start of round 1 sticky

Atalan Jackals (GSC)
Dark Eldar enhancement for one boat
Skitarii on specific sitreps

These are known for generally having paper thin statlines and significant weaknesses

[vital barn]

(I miss when Skittles qualified as medium infantry)

[jaunty dawn]

Arent intercessors sticky

[untold swallow]

Yeah Intercessors are sticky lol

[floral herald]

Lots of battleline gets sticky but they don’t get forward deployments

[pale narwhal]

Kroot have scout and sticky

So sometimes you can turn 1 sticky home and middle objective

But they’re also paper thin

[floral herald]

CSM have an (unpopular) detachment which can make turn 1 sticky cultists

But it’s also cultist mobs lmao

[untold swallow]

Kroot are faster and have Stealth as well

They also have more models so more OC, and are also 15 cheaper than base scouts

oh they're 15 cheaper than intercessors, not scouts

But the scouts I'm making are more akin to intercessor costs

[sour sequoia]

There is a massive difference between kroot and intercessors, kroot get wiped by chaff

Scouts are marine quality bodies with 2W and a better save

[tepid stratus]

Tormentors out here with infiltrate and sticky

[thin ibex]

Kroot carnivores, even in KHP, actually die pretty easy

given, with enough of them its an oppressive number of wounds hidden behind stealth and an invuln, and probaby an fnp from a shaper

[untold swallow]

current iteration of the Weird Scouts

[rocky shale]

The wargear option doesn't really do anything if they already have combat blades

[untold swallow]

me when I forget to change the weapon names

pretend it says close combat weapon like it's supposed to XD

[upper bluff]

those should be fine. Maybe they're a little cheap for 2 wounds but they're basically just skitarii rangers

they just trade an extra attack and invuln save for an extra wound

[rocky shale]

These are kinda just like bad intercessors with scout 6"

[untold swallow]

someone in another server immediately went 'why tf would I field these when intercessors exist' and my response is 'idk I don't field intercessors cuz they bore me'

[upper bluff]

you know what fair enough lol

what makes these guys worse than intercessors

[rocky shale]

Why do intercessors bore you and these don't? It's very similar but like less abilities.

[untold swallow]

Cuz I wrote their lore

And their lore is cool

<XD

[rocky shale]

Intercessors have +2A when they don't split fire, and heavy/-1AP rather than rapid fire 1

• grenade launchers

[upper bluff]

oh right the extra ap

[untold swallow]

They accompany a recruiting marine; an Apothecary, Chaplain, or Librarian, and their tenure as Squires is spent defending the Speaking House they use to recruit people while undertaking some light espionage and secret policing

[rocky shale]

They're tougher and shootier for the same points

[upper bluff]

yeah these guys are basically pre buff rangers

[untold swallow]

basically intercessors bore me because they are capital M Marines

They're the ones on every cover that aren't Terminators or whatever unit a Chapter may specialize in

They are Man With Gun

Now

[rocky shale]

You could just use the intercessors statline for your dudes lore

[untold swallow]

I will admit

But muh ~ r u l e s v e r i s i m i l i t u d e ~

XD

In all seriousness that is probably what I should do

But none of this Chapter is what I should do <XD

[rocky shale]

The only real difference is like 1AP on the sword and 1 save different

Incursors are also a very similar profile in phobos armor

[vital barn]

intercessors are a pretty boring attempt at Lore Accurate Marines, yeah

[vital barn]

they work, though

[untold swallow]

cursed idea

assault rapid fire 1

XDDDDD

[rocky shale]

Assault rapid fire 1 on a scouting obsec unit

Hmmm

[untold swallow]

I think it's fitting but worry the combo would be

Much

[rocky shale]

It is kinda the literally perfect turn 1 rush unit

[untold swallow]

Hm

Fuck

[rocky shale]

You will always have 10W on every midfield objective turn 1

[untold swallow]

I assume that is a sign to step back lol

[rocky shale]

Hell if consider running big units just to go "fuck you kill 20W of dudes and also the objective is sticked if you do kill them"

[untold swallow]

WAIT WHY THE FUCK DID I GIVE THEM OC 2????

[rocky shale]

Oh Jesus those are OC2

[untold swallow]

No

No they are not

That is a mistake

[rocky shale]

Hahaha

You're not battleline shoo

[untold swallow]

They are OC 1

Absofuckinlutely not

[rocky shale]

Even still, units of 10 of these give you a brutal turn 1 midfield

Just off sheet wound count

(particularly if they have assault)

[untold swallow]

incursors have assault ignores cover on their carbines

1 better save...

[rocky shale]

No sticky

[untold swallow]

but yeah

[rocky shale]

Incursors are pretty good but you can shoot them off point and then it just flips neutral

Same with infiltrators that you can dump on objectives from the start

Sticky is really good

[untold swallow]

mmm

fuck

[rocky shale]

There's a reason obsec is almost always on bland battleline units

[untold swallow]

Hmmm

Weird idea

No Scouts ability

7" move?

[rocky shale]

Space wolf moment

[untold swallow]

😑

[rocky shale]

Lol

[untold swallow]

MY PARTNER KEEPS NEEDLING ME FOR MAKING DARK ANGELS BUT SPACE WOLVES AND SHE'S BEEN RIGHT EVERY TIME AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

https://tenor.com/view/knowing-better-kb-know-better-gif-25459195

[rocky shale]

Fast marines (jetpack) is blood angels

Fast marine (bike) is white scars

Fast marine (foot) is wolves

If everything has Scouts then it's also world eaters

[untold swallow]

GOD GREY HUNTERS EVEN HAVE BOLT CARBINES WITH RAPID FIRE, SOMETHING I DIDN'T LOOK AT ANY DATASHEETS TO SEE

[rocky shale]

🐺

[vital barn]

I don't want to imagine the backstory of a chapter that's a 50/50 split of those guys

that's not a happy relationship

[untold swallow]

THEY'RE NOT THEY'RE ENTIRELY DA I SWEAR

THEY JUST DO VOID COMBAT

THEY DON'T LIKE WOLVES

THEY DON'T

slowly turning into a corncob

[rocky shale]

Wouldn't void combat be less about speed?

[untold swallow]

Well the Squires aren't typically in void combat

[rocky shale]

You've made a couple scouts units I thought

[untold swallow]

But the Chapter's Bladeguard/Sang Guard equivalent are some reiverish bois

Which you have seen

[rocky shale]

Yeah

[untold swallow]

I imagine those guys in particular just

turning a hallway into a blender on the way to an enemy warlord

[rocky shale]

When I think void combat I think more like shields and shotguns

[untold swallow]

I like the idea of buccaneer swashbuckling power armored guys more than traditional navy breaching

Tho that does give me an idea for the Chapter Master's actual bodygaurd XD

[vital barn]

DA have historically been pretty good at fleet fight

the top legions there are consistently called out as IF, DA, White Scars and Alpha Legion

[desert jay]

Rhi: Who's their founding chapter?

DA, IIRC?

[untold swallow]

Officially unclear, Chapter lore holds it is the Dark Angels

(It is the Dark Angels for all intents and purposes)

[desert jay]

"We lost the records somewhere but probably DA"

[untold swallow]

ye

Why do you ask?

[desert jay]

Was looking at the angle of them being sorta between DA and SW

But I couldn't remember if you had them as DA successors, or just something like a UM/IF successor that happens to be DA-like

[untold swallow]

DA successors

they think so, the High Lords and Inquisition are reasonably certain of such

But

Something happened in that history that the rest of the Unforgiven basically tell them to fuck off

It could be that they follow the Imperial Creed, or some other reason

But they are only vaguely aware of the concept of the Inner Circle and the Fallen

[desert jay]

Not allowed in the secret club because everyone who knew the secret handshake died in some battle a few millenia ago

[vital barn]

I always find the concept of the Fallen vaguely funny given how the 30k lore evolved

[untold swallow]

Yes, but you see

Catholic guilt

[vital barn]

because it started out as "my god, some of US went traitor in the Heresy, this is a great dark secret" and now fucking everyone has a bunch of heresy-era traitors around

[desert jay]

The twist is that DA are just the ones who can't get over it

[vital barn]

it's honestly wierder if they don't admit to any

[untold swallow]

I mean yes Misc

[vital barn]

I'm sure they've nudged the lore a bit to make them guiltier about something slightly more relevant since this happened

[untold swallow]

But that's the tragically funny bit

[vital barn]

but it will still make me laugh

[untold swallow]

They are all gripped by the most extreme version of Catholic guilt that they exterminate whole worlds and assassinate high ranking individuals for the mere suspicion they know the source of their shame

A shame that

other chapters bear publicly

[vital barn]

meanwhile the Admech

publically shrieking about purging each other for heresy at literally all times

also every other Imperial institution

[untold swallow]

Caliban exploding is now on their division into the Unforgiven and Fallen

And Luther did stab daddy

[desert jay]

Actually, since practically everyone had traitors, but DA went to great lengths to hide theirs, wouldn't that mean that their public rep is unusually clean there?

[untold swallow]

It does mean that, aye

They are exemplars of purity to a lot of the Imperium for that reason

All the more reason to hide their shame

[vital barn]

they are also exemplars of being sneaky fucking unreliable bastards who you can't talk to for any practical reasons

[untold swallow]

The pure Legion of the firstborn son, riven in such a way that cracked their world and almost killed their Primarch? Almost too much to bear

[vital barn]

so depends whether you know more about the public glorious knights persona or the serious-high-command "oh for fucks sake" persona

[desert jay]

I guess some time around 31K they looked around and went "Wait, no one else is bothering. Shit we'll look like double weirdos if we stop covering things up now" unbeknownst that they already look like weirdos for being so secretive

[upper canopy]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8iKwX4dX5c

[vital barn]

the Dark Angels have a lot of cool stuff but are also kind of the 30k writers' pets, they show up all the time

they very much had the sneaky secretive reputation before the Heresy

at one point the entire SWolves fleet is bailed out of an AL deathtrap by almost literally random Dark Angels who had just built a giant doomfort in the middle of the nebula the wolves choose to hide in

just a few thousand dudes and their killfleet AFKing in a nebula, one of more than half a dozen Calibanite DA outposts Luther apparently had built and staffed

they infiltrate the Wolves flagship and steal its engagement history so they can tell whether they're still loyal or not

[untold swallow]

anyways new version of the Squire rules

[vital barn]

(apparently they sent infiltrators to the AL flagship too, but that didn't go so hot)

[past sphinx]

no shotguns?

a shame

[untold swallow]

lol

You know

Unrelated to your statement, truly

I'm just

Not gonna make these a unit lol

'oh but how do Scouts participate in a warhost'

'Something extremely bad has happened if they're in a warhost for this Chapter, and if they've been linked up with a Chapter host, it is one coming to rescue them and fight off an invasion'

[rocky shale]

Oof Malys is a $48 preorder

[untold swallow]

https://youtu.be/kXuimAeVhE8

Why is so much hay made in this vid of the techmarine being a termie?

Every other specialty has a termie (save for apothecary but they existed in previous editions), why not a techmarine?

Is there a lore reason?

[thin ibex]

My knee jerk is that 1. It's warhammer fans

[untold swallow]

lol

[thin ibex]

I do think there probably some lore reason, but also who cares?

[vital barn]

Horus Heresy forge lords/praevians, the Big Techmarine HQs, have had termie options for a decade now

Not sure regular techies had one at any point but they have artificer armour + refractor field 2+/5++ anyway, so it's basically the same mechanically

[jaunty dawn]

They never made a bike techmarine either

[floral herald]

Techmarines don’t usually use terminator armor but I’m not aware of a reason they couldn’t

[jaunty dawn]

Doesnt mean shit abt the lore

[floral herald]

Yeah normal techmarine armor is on par mostly anyway

[jaunty dawn]

But I dont think in armoury editions they couldnt take terminator armour

And terminator armour would still give them slow and purposeful

[untold swallow]

So more they just

Wouldn't bother

XD

[floral herald]

I don’t remember all of them but I seem to remember them not having it in 4e

Or at least don’t remember it

I think practically terminator armor would be kind of a pain for doing Techmarine Stuff

But not like, that badly

[vital barn]

praevians, the legion automata handlers, are usually terminators

but that's because they're rolling with big slow robots that take a lot of fire, so it's the logical pick

[jaunty dawn]

Ohhh

They couldnt in 3e for the same reason terminator apothecaries are a deathwing only thing

[floral herald]

Im just thinking in terms of reduced manual dexterity

[jaunty dawn]

They weren’t independent characters

[floral herald]

Aha, no terminator honors option?

[jaunty dawn]

Which I think means that iron hands could, since they got the option to take an independent techmarine with an extra wound

[floral herald]

That’s mildly ironic actually

[jaunty dawn]

Afaict in 4e all techmarines could take terminator armour

And artificer armour wasnt automatic but part of the servo harness option

The benefits of doing so being deep strike, access to terminator only weapons like chainfists

Also refractor fields didnt exist

In 5th they got rid of the armoury but still manually had the option for bikers but they all had artificer armour now. No invuln yet

[floral herald]

It used to be surprisingly hard to get an invuln

Admittedly AP worked super differently

[jaunty dawn]

Mm

Needed it for plasma tho

[untold swallow]

Me, continuing to be saddo that ynnari armies still require yvraine or the yncarne

[untold swallow]

Debating morphing these into my Chapter's Funky Intercessors ™

[gray basalt]

Any chapter that hates the wolves gets bonus points from me

[finite compass]

I like Space Wolves... >_>

Entirely because Werewolf Vikings in Space is an entire vibe

[thin ibex]

I'm a fan of wolves, they're some of the most rediculous marines in a setting known for a goofy levels of rediculousness

[gray basalt]

They are Hollywood vikings 😭

[past sphinx]

if wolves aint cringe i aint in

the absurdity is what makes em interesting

[vital barn]

The HH wolves themselves have some charm, Russ is just incredibly hateable and I don't think that was intentional good writing as opposed to accidental bad writing, because he does three quick loop de loops through the same character development scene and changes not at all

[past sphinx]

"hello yes i wouldnt like giant cyborg wolf riding vikings" words of a mad person

[upper canopy]

I feel like the problem with the wolves isnt the aesthetic

[gray basalt]

You know what would make them cooler? Make them specialized in ship to ship combat, make em wear tunics outside their armor, and make em return to Fenris to farm in the warm season

[upper canopy]

So much as they just break every space marine setting rule

[gray basalt]

It's both

[upper canopy]

Also theres no farming on fenris

The warm season is Volcanos

[vital barn]

I have been tempted by Terran space wolves who go "fuck this" after Prospero or Allaxes and go off to terra to help siege mars

[gray basalt]

Boring

[vital barn]

since mars has many monasteries for them to raid

[gray basalt]

See that'd be cool

[dense idol]

what's the agricultural industry like? where does all the food come from?

wolves?

[gray basalt]

Import food that isn't meat

[charred bridge]

There are no wolves on fenris

[vital barn]

The fenrisian tribesmen exit every book before this can be explained but they are theoretically cool

[gray basalt]

Exactly they are all space Marines fallen to the canis helix

[upper canopy]

Theres no people on fenris now either

Magnus killed all of them

[gray basalt]

Good

Wolves deserved it

[vital barn]

one of the best parts of Prospero Burns is the xianxia mortal arc where three locals are trying to survive a raid

[charred bridge]

Magnus didn't do something wrong for once

[gray basalt]

Magnus did alright with the hand he was dealt

[vital barn]

I would read a whole BL novel about a fenrisian clan feud with no Astartes involved, it's a fun planet ruined by the fact that the threats aren't threatening to an Astartes with a bolter

[gray basalt]

The only time I think he really messed up was turning off all communications right before Wolves showed up

[charred bridge]

He did ignore several warnings from fellow primarchs and the emp's himself

[gray basalt]

Ye but he kinda had a lot on his plate

[charred bridge]

He was like nah I'm built different

[gray basalt]

He did say that too

[vital barn]

Magnus is a hubristic little shit who was going to shove his proverbials into a trap sooner or later but he's less of a hypocrite than Russ

[gray basalt]

But to be fair he was built different

[vital barn]

and Russ, unlike Magnus, fans the hammer on the mistakes generator and makes the same one four times

[charred bridge]

With Emp's refusing to tell Magnus anything he was doomed from the start

[gray basalt]

Yeeeeeeee

Now I do hate Magnus but that's not for anything he has done, it's because he is a psyker

And Psykers as we all know are inherently tyrants

[charred bridge]

Real Morty hours

[gray basalt]

Always

[vital barn]

Fenris is cool, the 30k Viking marines and their incredibly self-aggrandizing legion mythology are not entirely to my taste but aren't devoid of fun parts and cool colour schemes with runes, can't stand the 40k ones

[gray basalt]

I read the short story where Vorx as a kid meets Morty on Barbarus and ever since I have been a Morty stan

[sour sequoia]

Have you considered: its deeply hilarious to do a cultural appropriation on the whitest folks on earth

The white scars do not suffer alone

[gray basalt]

That's true

[sour sequoia]

The carcharodons do not suffer alone

[gray basalt]

That's funny so I continue to laugh at them (Swoofs) still don't like them

White Scars are legitimately cool tho

[sour sequoia]

“Ah cool islander rep”
Look inside
Bloodthirsty unintelligible cannibalistic warrior savages

Aight

[rocky shale]

I was laughing my ass off in rogue trader when the space wolves start rap battling each other

[sour sequoia]

White Scars is enough orientalism we could resurrect Edward Said lmfaooo

[charred bridge]

I was surprised Khan didn't just quote Sun Tzu a ton

[vital barn]

The Scars are somewhat redeemed by the fact that every HH book they've got has been at least a 7/10

at least on the scale of Black Library rather than literature in general

Sharks less so,and there's less about them

[gray basalt]

And Chris did at least a little research when writing Scars

My Mongolian buddy loves the WS

[vital barn]

They have been done a slight disservice by the fact that 30k jetbikes all look like flying dicks

White Scars on cool jetbikes would be unstoppable

[gray basalt]

Well and GW has started a great removal of all bikes

[sour sequoia]

But then honestly every other legion has fuckall going for character, its all “ruthless warrior zealots led by McLargeHuge My Dad When We Were Trying To Repair The Transmission Together And I’m Holding The Flashlight”

[untold swallow]

Man fuck it is that isn't it

That fucking sucks lmao

sadly kicks a rock

[vital barn]

HH bikes are alive and well, although sadly they don't score so you do need some people on foot to run Scars nowadays

Biker melee squads very scary

[rocky shale]

I thought the charcarodons were led by gwar gura

[gray basalt]

Well and unfortunately a ton of the Badab chapters read as "Some GW worker's pet chapter that gets a self insert character that's OP"

[sour sequoia]

This is about the only thing Britain knows about the pacific is that we beat the everloving piss out of Captain Cook and would sack British galleons without breaking a sweat

Even with some of my family’s shit on display at the british museum lmaooo

[gray basalt]

The biggest offenders being the Sharks and the Minos

[vital barn]

I don't know, I like the Minotaurs, the Lamenters, the Red Scorps, they all have stuff going on

[sour sequoia]

Those three are good

[untold swallow]

https://tenor.com/view/navy-seal-gun-seal-army-gif-11933413

[untold swallow]

...pun intended, or...

[vital barn]

Minotaurs used to have more different guys before all their rules got removed, then it was just A.M for a bit so he got all the attention

[gray basalt]

Always

[upper canopy]

Well the people on fenris definitely didnt

[gray basalt]

They are complicit

[untold swallow]

I now want to make a better islander rep chapter lmao

[upper canopy]

If this is a bit its a little exhausting I will say

[untold swallow]

Have the Chapter Master be on some kamehameha type beat

G u n s

[vital barn]

Minotaurs especially are Marines Malevolent done right

[untold swallow]

and S h i p s

[vital barn]

Love the insanely annoying private army marines

[gray basalt]

Minos are led by a bigger than normal space marine with archaeotech weapon who broods a lot and is super strong and always wins

[vital barn]

That's like every chapter, but Moloc is at least acknowledged by all to be a lunatic psycho attack dog for his political bosses

[untold swallow]

Charcs are led by a bigger than normal space marine with debatably archaeotech weapons who broods a lot and is super strong and always wins but the fanbase loves him for it

[gray basalt]

Sharks are led by a bigger than normal space marine with super special weapons who broods a lot and is super strong

[sour sequoia]

Should have even more totally-not-librarians than space wolves

[untold swallow]

I

I actually really fuckin hate that lmao

[gray basalt]

Ayyyyy jinx

[untold swallow]

The cope fucking boils my blood

[gray basalt]

Nah MM are MM done right

[untold swallow]

It boils my blood to the point I made a Wrath & Glory character who was an Unnumbered Son of Russ, who was a librarian

and failed to integrate as a rune priest because CONGRATS

[gray basalt]

Marines Malevolent slap

[untold swallow]

RUNE PRIEST SHIT IS COPE

And so she ran off and joined an Inquisitor because all my homies said Fuck Wolves

[charred bridge]

Russ really did shit on magnus during the trial for being practicing Psykers

[untold swallow]

lolol

[vital barn]

I think you're slightly hindered here by the fact most Brits know functionally nothing about the Pacific, even that, except some Kiwi stereotypes and like four misremembered facts about the Maori

so you're selecting for the real empire enjoyer sotadic zone type freaks to some extent

[untold swallow]

Rune priests take L after L

Stormseers W after W

[sour sequoia]

Misc when I make it to London I’m taking you to the museum to show you the family heirloom on display

[gray basalt]

I love me stormseers

[vital barn]

I actually have not been to the British Museum

most other big ones in London, yes

[gray basalt]

I've never been to the UK

I've actually never left the US, alas I am too poor to leave

[vital barn]

I would be more surprised if you had been

There are many more interesting places to go if you're taking a limited number of trips outside the US and don't have contacts here

[gray basalt]

I wanna go to Ireland, Mongolia, Greece and some places in the Middle East

Also Germany

[vital barn]

anyway, I did once consider doing a Minotaurs army but I'm quite glad I didn't because primaris arrived slightly afterwards, the game got really bad for a few years and then Moloc had his rules deleted anyway

[gray basalt]

But that's mainly to visit friends

I wanna do Executioners

Although I wouldn't mind doing Mantis Warriors

[dense idol]

when i eventually break under the peer pressure of Marneus Calgar refresh #87, i was considering doing minotaurs as an astartes army

[floral herald]

Wait

Wrong reply sorry

[dense idol]

really leaning into my ideal visualisation of space marines as "insufferable nepo-babies who never shut up about their chapter's honour and are completely immune to the consequences of endless self-destructive glory-hounding"

[thin ibex]

You get two choices, this or "A movie version of a real world culture"

There is no space marine chapter or legion that isn't based on a pop culture version of the culture

[vital barn]

I thought that seemed mildly abrupt, lmao

[thin ibex]

because that was kind of the point

Like, a lot of the factional stuff comes off as 3 dudes in a british garage going "yo thats sick"

not a thoroughly researchd political commentary on real world cultures

[charred bridge]

Necrons being not legally distinct at all terminator

[sour sequoia]

It took me a while to come around to em but believe me I love 50,000 kinds of dumbshit toxic masculinity powering a setting these days

[gray basalt]

Necrons have some girl bosses too

[thin ibex]

Heck, in actual lore, "Tactics" is just a super power that lets you win offscreen battles. As seen by Marneus, Creed, Imotekh, etc

[floral herald]

The named character leading the new necron kill team rules

She’s a middle manager Cryptek who was awoken early by the master control program for the tomb world

[dense idol]

i love that the biggest and most important ork warboss being named Gashskull Margaret Thatcher was never retconned

[floral herald]

And has realized that once the nobles wake up she won’t be in charge any more

[thin ibex]

I both like and am kind of surprised that after literally millions of years without a soul or flesh body, the concept of a gender is something that Necrons would even care about beyond it being what they identified with before their apotheosis

[floral herald]

So she’s been hacking the master control program to make sure they don’t while she works out how to steal their treasures

She also just like, mulches 2 deathwatch kill teams in the narrative snippets haha

[thin ibex]

I often feel like Necron gender is like "Ambition" or "In Charge"

[vital barn]

Necrons lore feels like it's been consistently solid lately

I need to read Twice Dead King

[thin ibex]

thats on my list too

[gray basalt]

First book is phenomenal

[thin ibex]

im still finishing up the plague wars

[vital barn]

even if I hear they do squish one of my beloved arks Mechanicus

[gray basalt]

My condolences

[thin ibex]

im not hating them

some places are boring a bit, but overall not terrible

[dense idol]

desperately clinging on to the vestiges of necrontyr culture left over after their transformation into immortal machines of war is very in character imo

[vital barn]

Ark Mechs are like Imperator Titans, if they survive the book they're first introduced it's genuinely a miracle

[thin ibex]

mechanicus super tech only gets introduced to get blown up i think

[dense idol]

at least for the ones who aren't still "this is cool as shit, actually" regarding biotransference

[thin ibex]

same with dark mech stuff

[vital barn]

because they're too cool to not use as worf or boss fight material

[thin ibex]

like that one iron warriors novel that involved the imperator class titan that kicked in the imperial palace gates

and then it got smoked

[charred bridge]

Necrons are fun cause they compete in insane ways

[gray basalt]

The transformation into Necron makes them into an image that is more themselves than what they were and there are some that flipped genders when the bio transferance happened so trans Necrons are canon

[vital barn]

Dies Irae was actually first introduced in that book

[charred bridge]

Ork infighting is just fighting. Necron drama involves millenias long plots

[vital barn]

There have been fifteen Imp Titans introduced in BL books and one survived the book

[thin ibex]

I do honestly love the ork/necron match up because its like two sides of a spectrum

[vital barn]

the book was called "Imperator" and was entirely about the Titan

[charred bridge]

Your colony's destruction could be just a result of a petty feud

[vital barn]

every single imperator that isn't the book protagonist has died immediately

[thin ibex]

"Yeah this technology got developed yesterday by a mad ork in a scrap garage, your tech is billions or millions of years old and carefulyl developed by tech so arcane its magic"

[gray basalt]

One of my favorite ork quotes is "Aimin' iz fer cowards"

[thin ibex]

Imperators are definitely a "Oh damn thats cool, i wonder how its gonna die" situation

[floral herald]

This is such a funny stat

[vital barn]

Xenos Vs Xenos is also one of those usually gold categories

[charred bridge]

The titan that was destroyed by an ork accidentally teleporting its truck past the void shield and ended up in the princep's room then just killed everyone inside

[thin ibex]

Necrons, much like every other faction in the setting, somehow continually convince themselves they have the measure of the orks, and then get basted for their hubris

[charred bridge]

So BS but I love it

[thin ibex]

Oh that wasn't a truck that wa a trike iirc

[upper canopy]

Incorrect

[thin ibex]

it was the riders of the aporkalypse i think

[vital barn]

Nah it happened a second time with a dragster

[upper canopy]

Yeah the ork deliberately ramped into the princeps room tho

Wazdakka Gutsmek

[gray basalt]

Brutal Kunnin is such a fun book

[thin ibex]

yeah what im remembering is wazdakka

[vital barn]

Seriously those things die like flies

[thin ibex]

doing a sick jump, ramming through the void shields and being on fire hte entire time he killed the entire control room

[floral herald]

So this is just ork doctrine now huh

[vital barn]

I'd really like to see more titans actually surviving books

[thin ibex]

we ever have anything on what became of wazdakka and his waaagh?

[charred bridge]

Orks very oddly have lots of teleportation stuff

[gray basalt]

Titandeath has some titans survive

[floral herald]

How to beat a stompy boy:

1. drive at it very fast
2. do a sick jump
3. ????
4. Kill kill kill

[charred bridge]

I dont think the warping past void shields was intended

[upper canopy]

Every time someone makes a "Tau when the church starts walking" joke another titan dies

[vital barn]

but [protag faction stomps forge world] is a stock plot by this point

[thin ibex]

Forge worlds always be on the defensive

[vital barn]

Titandeath is fun but also has a lot more exploding imperators

[gray basalt]

Actually I think some titans survive Mechanicum as well

[vital barn]

as you might expect by the title

[past sphinx]

consider that its always funny for the titan crew to get like 6 pages of build up and interpersonal relationship to just get merc'd in like the next 2

[charred bridge]

Titans are kind of vegetas used to show how strong a faction is

[thin ibex]

a problem i have with titan books is they so often make the titan feel like... kind of just a thing

[vital barn]

Imperator in Mechanicum also dies

[gray basalt]

Well and the last third of the book is barely about titans

[thin ibex]

like theres no feeling of scale or weight, and the destruction they cause is so like detached

[upper canopy]

This is because the Mechanicus is less popular and thus able to be defeated in a book

[thin ibex]

and obviously in hero stories or anti hero stories, your protag has to figure out how to like... solo drop or manufacture a titan's destruction

[vital barn]

Honestly the faction partisan part of me did not like Brutal Kunning, it was very much stereotypical incompetent Techpriests die to whatever

fun ork book besides that though

[upper canopy]

Space marines need to die for me to respect any xenos book

[thin ibex]

It's kind of like baneblades in novels, they get revealed so that they can be destroyed, if they have any narrative significance

[upper canopy]

At least war of the beast killed off the imperial fists

[gray basalt]

Me: Grabs book about titans
Looks inside
It's a book about Sanguinis

[thin ibex]

I actually really liked the raptor's portrayal in elemental council; dude was a menace and his armor barely worked the whole book

[vital barn]

Titanicus is the best 40k book ever written, end of

All other titan stories sadly not so much

[gray basalt]

I need to read it still

[thin ibex]

Titanicus is the one with the gene wrought feather wearing, painted up, roided out skitarii right?

[vital barn]

Yeah

and the actually important titans

[thin ibex]

ngl that set my expectations for what skitarii were

and so modern ones really confused me

skitarii in that book really vibed "techno barbarian" energy

[past sphinx]

also a great depiction of them being most vulnerable to boarding actions

witch i think its the coolest part of titan fightign

[thin ibex]

but yeah in elemental council, a single squad of raptors almost destabilized a Tau occupation despite being down like almost all their guys in a believable way

[vital barn]

There isn't much boarding in Titanicus, there's a bit

[thin ibex]

and they gave the tau the runaround for forever

[vital barn]

but it's about titan fights and showing why titans are actually real and useful

[gray basalt]

Raptors are cool

[thin ibex]

The only thing that bothers me is that my mental scale for titans is much bigger than real; cause like im supposed to believe that regiments can fit in their legs and nah son

[past sphinx]

honarary mention to that book that entirely takes place inside and imperitor titan

[thin ibex]

that aint happening

[past sphinx]

really nails to feeling of scale

[vital barn]

rather than the traditional "Titan as FPS level"

[gray basalt]

Canon chapters I would really like a force of are Raptors, Crimson Fists, Executioners, Marines Malevolent, Blood Dragons, Scythes of the Emperor, and Mantis Warriors

[floral herald]

Executioners are dope

[gray basalt]

I love them so much

[upper bluff]

Raptors are the funniest marine to me. Dudes got nearly wiped out so many times that they have resorted to practical military tactics

Wasn't there a Raptor in that new Tau book?

[gray basalt]

If I liked how 10th ed played I probably play Exies

[thin ibex]

up, actually kinda how they came up

[pale narwhal]

I like the raptors

if I wasn't so utterly captured by Carcharodons they might've been my chosen marine chapter

[gray basalt]

Now I'm just running chaos war dogs bc I can't find any armies that are fun alas

[upper bluff]

The only problem with running Raptors on the tabletop is that you aren't really allowed to do it lore accurate

[gray basalt]

Tis sad

[upper bluff]

Which wouldn't be the first time with a 40k faction but yeah

[gray basalt]

You can in kill teams tho, yeah?

[thin ibex]

They're suited to Kt to be honest

phobos KT

[upper canopy]

The funniest thing about thus is that the raptors main lore was the Tavros campaign

[junior summit]

imo the issue with titans and arks mechanicus and such is that they're too big

[floral herald]

They have a sick looking studio angels of death kill team

[gray basalt]

I need to try new kill teams

[upper canopy]

Where they lost the engagement to the Tau because they were prideful stubborn and mariney

[gray basalt]

Maybe that's what I will do, make a Marines Malevolent kill team

[junior summit]

So you need to get rid of them otherwise the entire story is "Ultima Ratio Regum motherfuckers" and theres no room for John Infantry to do anything

[upper canopy]

My friend says the best part of the Marines Malevolent is you cant pretend theyre the good guys

[thin ibex]

Little known fact, the mirror codex isn't just a reverse engineered codex astartes, but in fact an artifact that makes marines act in that way regardless of their usual tactics

[upper canopy]

And i agree

[junior summit]

So unless they're viewpoint characters or entirely background elements like in gaunts ghosts they're too warping for the stories authors want to tell

[gray basalt]

They absolutely are the good guys, they do everything for the Imperium they can /j

[upper canopy]

MM are the best chapter because every chapter acts like that

[gray basalt]

Or at least should

[upper canopy]

Just one is kind of a dick and doesn't pretend to be sad

[upper bluff]

Marines Malevolent are the classic Rogue Trader lore space marines right. Not like in name but in the "I'm a literal fascist police boot licker. No honor or umm actually about it"

[thin ibex]

doesn't a salamander like beat the breaks off of a mm during armageddon

[gray basalt]

I also think more chapters should believe in the Imperial Creed

[thin ibex]

cause of like the mm using a refugee camp as artillery bait

or something

[gray basalt]

Kinda, but remember it's grimdark so everything is kinda inverted, the more evil you are the more "good" you are

[upper bluff]

Ah right lol

Shining exemplars of the imperial way of life

[gray basalt]

If you are real world good you either die, or become evil (or change the setting but doing that would make Warhammer un Warhammer)

[upper bluff]

Even their name is funny "Mean Marines"

[gray basalt]

Yes!

They actively participate in the setting and with vigor so they are cool in my book

Same with the Blood Dragons

Now if the Marines Malevolent existed in a different setting that wasn't grimdark then yes let's disembowel them

[thin ibex]

the MM, otherwise known as the imperial equivalent of the Night Lords

[gray basalt]

Night Lords rock too

I love their HH 1.0 rules bc if you killed their warlord every unit in the army had to take a leadership test to see if they start running away

Bc their gang leader who kept everyone in line was down

[vital barn]

I'll take that deal if I'm allowed to trade my Titan Legion's lives for that of the enemy Primarch because he does the same thing. Even the demon ones, we'll invent some kind of pariah volcano cannon.

failing that, give us at least the odd side battle where Titans stomp all over something unimportant and leave, because right now I think they have a win/loss ratio entirely carried by the Dies Irae, and that's dead

Sanguinius starts soloing Warlords to punctuate a conversation by the time of the Siege of Terra, why does the Adeptus Titanicus even try anymore.

[gray basalt]

In one of the new HH campaign books there is this sick titan fight and at the grand finale the Dark Angels swoop in and kill steal

[sour sequoia]

Same as it ever was

[gray basalt]

Truth

[thin ibex]

Its Sanguinius, of course he does that, he's the best at everything

hes the most perfectest primarch ever

[gray basalt]

He is the Superman of the setting he is allowed

[vital barn]

The DA killsteal about 50% of all Horus Heresy campaign book fights written after Bligh's death

[gray basalt]

And only bc he dies

[vital barn]

the new writers evidently like the DA very much

[thin ibex]

DA get glazed pretty hard, but also i think they had big recent narrative stuff right? Like arks of omen, return o the lion, they got the spotlight for a while

before htem the big faction spotlight was kind the BA and the nid attack on Baal, and then before that it was UM and the indomitus crusade

[vital barn]

No idea how many narrative jerkoff scenes 40k lion is getting but I imagine it'll be less than HH9 + Cthonia + Schism of Mars

[thin ibex]

id like to see the inevitbale meeting between lion and robbie G in a novel, so that lion can be like "So... imperium secundus huh?"

[vital barn]

Only one of which they were even a major faction in to begin with, they just keep rocking up out of the warp and enforcing Pyrrhic Imperial Victory Forever with WMDs

dorks fall everyone dies

including the other loyalists

[thin ibex]

DA be like "we have whole armories of cool guns n shit that we never use cause we're waiting for an even worse crisis"

meanwhile, the rock actively being sacked

[vital barn]

I don't mind their HH antics much, honestly, they're usually interesting, but their campaign book is just one long string of them trivially owning the night lords

[gray basalt]

Fists get glazed hard now too

[vital barn]

which I imagine I would be mildly irked about if I was a night lords fan because they're don't strike me as the types to stick around and take 6 to 1 losses against a primarch

[thin ibex]

Are the fists getting glazed? I haven't seen any of it

I feel like IF exist to get killed most of the time

We don't even get to know their chapter master cause they die so often

[vital barn]

Fists got kinda cracked rules for 2.0, I don't recall too much narrative focus and now they're back to normal

they were just unquestionably a bit OP for a couple of years

[thin ibex]

They're like, the true stock space marines. Everyone in the fiction takes them seriously but also all they do is die in supporting roles

[bright dove]

Now to be fair: The Night Lords are actually kind of terrible at this war thing.

Night Lords are the military equivalent of a gang that punches down.

[gray basalt]

I think Dorn is narratively over powered in the SoT

[vital barn]

Oh NL should absolutely be losing to the DA in a pitched battle, especially since Curze fucked off to do sad boy things, but I don't think they'd stay in that battle long enough to take 50k casualties

[charred bridge]

Yea theyve only fought lesser opponents

[vital barn]

Admittedly the Siege is Dorn in his element doing his thing with his lads, if he's going to shine anywhere it's there

[gray basalt]

Also they gave their new named Fist character a Gloriana

[charred bridge]

They got no idea how to fight a war against other astartes on their level or even the guard

[vital barn]

oneshotting Alpharius was a bit of cheap heat from the writers but otherwise he seems mostly reasonable

[gray basalt]

Being good at siege does not make you better than other people doing their specialty just because you are sitting a siege

[floral herald]

I mean it kinda does

[bright dove]

Dorn is sitting in the defenses he built with his boys.

Yeah, no, that's the best case scenario for him.

[charred bridge]

Yea historically sieges needed like 10 to 1 advantage to suceed cause defending is a huge force multiplier

[gray basalt]

For sure

[bright dove]

It really speaks to how good Perty is that the SoT went as well as it did.

[floral herald]

They also had a lot of hax and incredible numbers tbf

[charred bridge]

Im surprised Alpharius even put up a fight against Dorn, I guess cause Primarch but isnt his deal mostly like assassinating humans whereas Dorn fights frontline

[gray basalt]

Apologies I'm getting very sleepy and forming exact thoughts is hard

[upper canopy]

And yet he does still lose to Perty
Iron Warriors 4eva babyyyy

[gray basalt]

He was trying to talk to Dorn not fight him

I'm heading to bed have a wonderful night folks

[floral herald]

Though it is sort of funny how it was probably one of the night lords who made it in first

[charred bridge]

One hell of a bad talks if Alpharius died

[bright dove]

Dorn was not in the mood to talk.

[charred bridge]

Or Omeagon disguised as Alpharius

[gray basalt]

I think Slaves to Darkness confirms it's Alpharius that dies but I could be wrong

[charred bridge]

Thats fair, he like nearly beat kurze to death for his visions that could even imply space marines could defect

[vital barn]

He's still a primarch, none of them are chumps, and dorn isn't really noted as a melee monster in particular.

[gray basalt]

And yet

[vital barn]

I'm very mildly annoyed that they both killed off one of the twins in his second? appearance and then goes out of their way to confirm absolutely no clever plans were involved, but that's why they have a spare

If they do the same thing to the other one when they write the battle with the Ultras in the Scouring I will actually be miffed because that was such a trademark Rumours Of My Death moment that even the UM used to doubt they got him

[gray basalt]

I mean Ultras do rock up to the Iron Cage

[vital barn]

Sure, but no alphas were involved there

[gray basalt]

That we know of

Dorn was Alpharius the whole time

[untold swallow]

I apparently have a pet unit and it's Reivers

cuz I wanna make a Reiver librarian now

XDDD

[past sphinx]

wouldnt that just be the phobos lib in a spooky hat?

[charred bridge]

New plot twist Dorn was actually killed and its been Alpharius this entire time and the fight was a fabrication but theyre really into method acting and would act like Dorn does

[untold swallow]

It would, with precision witchfire and something that buffs either terror troops or fearsome assault

probably the latter, since the Lt. already buffs terror troops

maybe something like 'Fear the Warp [PSYCHIC]: once per battle, if an enemy unit in Engagement Range of this model or a unit it is leading must make a Battle-shock test, you may make your opponent reroll one of their Battle-shock dice and take the lower result.'

[quaint compass]

Its a shame there isn't any psychic lores surrounding the specifics of astartes psychology.

A psychic power that strips marines of their fear-blocking indoctrination.
A biomantic power that causes implant rejection in the target. Very good against most everyone, but especially marines.
And of course "Summon Greater Emotional Spectrum" causing, which is #1 agaim but healthier.

[vital barn]

There have been multiple "I mind control all your implants" powers in 40k, a bunch of Eldar do that to get the 30k Iron Hands once and Vashtorr has something similar, but space marine organs apparently don't count

Metal only, with an exception for the steel sinews or whatever they are that the primaris get

[west zealot]

Cawl revealing he put a shut down code in them all, what do you take him for, an idiot?

[junior robin]

finally, imperial fists primaris lieutenant

feels like LoV? 🤔

[main pagoda]

gonna throw a necro guess in there

[still warren]

Thats the votann symbol

[main pagoda]

im thinking its the w/e the squat faction is in necromunda

[floral herald]

Maybe a hard read but I am also thinking ironheads

[junior robin]

I mean necrons do love pyraminds

[main pagoda]

Im just basing on the fact we have literally just had a votann major release

[junior robin]

could be Rogal Dorns new hand, given to him by the votann who found him.

[thin ibex]

It's Arthur but in steel

[floral herald]

Grade A ultra guess

[pine matrix]

I believe

[mental birch]

Anyone wanna scratch heads over old world lists.

?

[spice flicker]

I havent checked in a while but how are IK, CK, and the dark eldar doing nowadays?

[main pagoda]

both knight factions are sitting pretty well DE are waiting for their new codex so we shall see

[desert jay]

DE codex is leaked too IIRC but of course not the points

[glad spear]

Please 🙏

I saw the picture on Reddit and was like TAU??

[main pagoda]

a leak as soon as it is announced is kinda insanely fishy imho

[mental birch]

Funniest leak I still think is fake is headless man

[main pagoda]

leakers being generally bad for the game at the best of time is just exacerbated by them constantly lying

[floral herald]

I think the funniest leak was the Kill Team box which has the fucking NIGHTBRINGER in it

https://preview.redd.it/night-lords-kill-team-leak-v0-z31s9ydxfzif1.png?auto=webp&s=73883504ce7c4e21495287b5e55b9d3b34ad1d8f

Just a “wait hold on” moment

[main pagoda]

i think the funniest part of that leak to me was GW being forced to reveal a product a full like year prior to its release

[floral herald]

We still have no idea what box is coming between Tomb World and the Nightbringer One

[upper canopy]

is there something about Ferrus Mannus coming back to 40k

[mental birch]

like I said funniest leak I think is fake

Ferrus Manus and Damnned Legionaire

[floral herald]

Very questionable leak shows his name

[pastel rampart]

Probably just some rumors meant to rile people up.

ol' Iron Hands of the Iron Hands is dead and while there's some avenues of him coming back they're unlikely to happen because I don't think anyone would be happy about it.

[sour sequoia]

Guy whose identity is Dead being Not Dead is pretty bad honestly

It wouldn’t shock me given GW’s writing caliber but Iron Hands have some drip as perpetually manic-grieving freaks

[upper canopy]

I mean at this point I am preparing for the slow drip feed of every primarch coming back

[sour sequoia]

Oh no absolutely they’re bringing every single one back because space marine players will buy all of it

[upper canopy]

making the game 50000% more insufferable as a result

[deft crest]

-# i think more primarchs is kinda cool tho chat

[vital barn]

I would be fine with more primarchs if exactly one of them, chosen at random, gets killed off for real by Some Guys

don't care what guys, as long as they're not space marines of any kind

[finite compass]

fleshing out the Horus Heresy and its consequences have been a disaster for mankind

[vital barn]

just put a big marker down saying "these guys are not on their own Soap Opera tier where they have to live forever unless fighting each other, you can just gank one of the bastards"

[finite compass]

I want to say that's already Dorn

But they're gonna want to bring him back

[main pagoda]

I think the implications of killing a returned primarch would kinda be a bit too big for GW and BL to want to do it

[finite compass]

But yes

Bringing back Ferrus or Curze

Or Sanguinius

Is a complete hypothetical

But would be hilarious

In a 'look, now they've completely lost the plot and nothing matters' sort of way

[untold swallow]

Me when the Sanguinor speaks for the first time, only once, says 'I am Sanguinius' then dips

[finite compass]

When he flubs the line and says 'I am Alpharius'

[untold swallow]

lol

'Oh but in the lore he's Azkaello-' boi if you don't

[pastel rampart]

Sanguinius is probably the only one out of those three with a plausible means of returning and even I wouldn't like that.

[untold swallow]

Nah, Sanguinius should stay dead

[pastel rampart]

Absolutely.

[misty violet]

I feel like the best way for Ferrus to come back would be alongside a new Legion of the Damned refresh

[pastel rampart]

The primarchs who are confirmed dead-dead should stay dead.

[misty violet]

But yeah he probably ought not come back at all

[untold swallow]

I want the next primarch to come back to be Russ

Odin-ified and mutated into a weird bird-wolf by his time in the Warp

If a primarch must come back

[pastel rampart]

Dorn comes back with little fanfare and treated as Just Some Guy.

[untold swallow]

Which would be the most maladjusted chapter to their Primarch returning?

Of the ones with any real chance

[sour sequoia]

Well, assuming the trends/current stat relations hold, demolition charges remain one of the best tools in the game for nuking Large Adult Sons and I can keep doing the funniest trading game ever

[untold swallow]

I feel like the Scars and Raven Guard would be the closest to going 'bet' and just kind of

[sour sequoia]

Lion El’Johnson walks up, the building falls on top of him and 5 dipshits with semtex bricks bum rush him

[untold swallow]

reintegrating into being under their Primarch

Man

There's a joke you could make but I'm not going to

Anyways I'm fleshing out my Chapter's Master of Executions (Lord Executioner, whoops)

He was the first to cross the Rubicon Primaris because he saw Reivers and went 'fucking B E T' and instituted a Chapter-specific variant

[thin ibex]

I wouldn't mind if the sanguinor was some kind of like psychic signature or something if Sanguinius, but I wouldn't be jazzed if it was literally just sanguinius

[untold swallow]

Oh the Sanguinor is almost certainly Somethinguinius

Whether the psychic echo of the Primarch himself or the manifestation of the Chapters of the Blood's belief in Sangy as the most holy of holies

[rocky shale]

Not beating the chaos allegations with a unit that's only in csm...

[untold swallow]

I meant Lord Executioner 😑

I can totally read, guys

Anyways, Lord Executioner Iaret Mefvin is going to have created the fun Bladereivers unit in lore that I made stats for a couple days ago

[gray basalt]

Lord Executioner and Master of Fleets are usually the characters I tend to make for my chapters

[untold swallow]

I am at least writing lore for the whole command staff

and I am definitely making Mefvin a unit

[jaunty dawn]

I think ghost ferrus who like doesnt even get to actually lead iron hands is the least problematic dead primarch returning

Sanguinius the most I think

[pastel rampart]

Yeah, Sangy's death is like...the entire pathos of the Blood Angels being what they are.

Like sure Sangy's body is still around and perfectly preserved and the whole thing with the Sanguinor is mysterious and a possible avenue for returning but it wouldn't be satisfactory or well-liked and miss the entire point of him being dead.

[upper canopy]

I can point out that the Fallen were the entire Pathos of the Dark Angels

and they did kinda just stop that

Like it was their One Big Thing

[charred bridge]

Meanwhile Vulkan still in the gulag to respawn

[pastel rampart]

And I'd agree, because I'm a DA fan. I didn't really like that either though I guess you still have Fallen running around being chaos dorks.

[upper canopy]

I just can't get behind new primarchs tbh

not with the way they're treated

It's impossible for them to be powerscaled to "The only important 18 people in the galaxy" and also be interesting

[jaunty dawn]

I dont feel like gulliman is really any different than calgar was but I dont care abt fiction n also thats not really a commendation

[charred bridge]

Calgar is Gulliman that's on the front lines instead of doing spreadsheets

Gulliman is really good at logistics though

[jaunty dawn]

Tho also the chaos primarch models are cool and they didnt even go anywhere

They dont have to be around in 40k scale but like

[vital barn]

Guilliman is jumping in and mega-swording people all the time

[jaunty dawn]

They're not really egregiously beyond it like they were at one time

[vital barn]

that's like half the books with him in

[vital barn]

Dorn died? to a bunch of khornate space marines, that barely counts

if the ten AL guys who got the jump on G-man had snuffed him in Unremembered Empire that would probably do it

but I'm thinking full "Primarch bisected by group of warbosses"

warbossi

[floral herald]

Guilliman is a paper pusher who goes “uuuuh, I guess” at the drop of a hat to every duel

[thin ibex]

wait did dorn die to some khornites? I thought he was unconfirmed dead, missing in Peter Turbo's mega maze?

[jaunty dawn]

Dorn is all like "all that was left of him is a hand!!!"

Idk if that trope is anywhere else than also in trash wizard book

[vital barn]

Dorn boarded a chaos ship a century or so after the Heresy, got swarmed by chaos space marines and only his hand was recovered

so if actually dead, killed by swarm of berserkers, if not dead, presumably sans hand

[thin ibex]

ah, so i was under the impression he disappeared at the iron cage, was that retconned/changed or was new lore added?

[mental birch]

Don't think he died there

[vital barn]

he was definitely around after the Iron Cage because he had time to split the IF into chapters properly

[mental birch]

The iron cage was what got him to go, "yeah we'll follow that book"

[vital barn]

the Fists didn't want to take on the Codex but Dorn thought it would be for the best, so he decided to use the Iron Cage as a legion-wide pain glove to get them to accept

[untold swallow]

"HEY GUYS! WE MISSED!"

"GET ANOTHER!"

[mental birch]

2 are around loyalist
2 are confirmed dead loyalist
1 is a weird bird ghost
1 is riding in the webway
1 is on some viking raid thing into the eye
1 is handless
1 killed an ork and is missing

[floral herald]

He lived until the second black crusade and then the Vengeful Spirit finished the job it started on Terra

[upper canopy]

why do I remember not liking that video

[finite compass]

I much prefer this one

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBt1vqff7dE

[untold swallow]

Me when I remember there's casual transphobia 3 mins in

God damn it

XD

[desert jay]

"You're right, I should get some reps in today"

[finite compass]

The TTS one really nails the essence of the IW, I think

[upper canopy]

That was it, yea

[finite compass]

Namely "I demand to be taken seriously." 😛

[untold swallow]

What sucks is the jokes at the beginning are great

[charred bridge]

I like Iron Warriors, the other CSMs are like "I am not a slave to chaos I am it's master" and IW is like, get in the engine Daemons

[upper canopy]

My like of a Chaos Legion directly correlates with how contrarian it is to like them

[charred bridge]

I like the silly guys

Orks great

Skaven great

Toxic old man yaoi (Necrons) great

[desert jay]

Who's the Chaos equivalent of the Marines Maevolant?

[floral herald]

Night Lords

[finite compass]

Most, if not all of them

Iron Warriors seem to hit that vibe of "Claims it's all about brutal practicality and arithmetic, but seems to enjoy it a bit too much."

[desert jay]

I mean more in the sense of "everyone else in the superfaction hates them and resents working with them", not the "warcrime time again"

[runic swallow]

Not even that, they use them as munitions as well lol, just locking a pissed off demon in an artillery shell

[floral herald]

Night Lords

:p

[desert jay]

Okay fair

[runic swallow]

Yeah, they’re the guys who really will cut and run and also steal your ship to do it

[charred bridge]

I love that about them, often the daemons aren't willing to be in their daemon engines

[desert jay]

Okay brain wandered and imagined a Fallen/Traitor detachment for CSM that's (limited) SM soup

[floral herald]

I was thinking about that

Angron’s Blood-plosion is a fun place to have it

[desert jay]

If it was limited unit selection... infantry, no scouts? But IDK if like Dev Centurions or w/e would be too cracked with Dark Pacts, there's so many units to go through

Oh no Dark Pact Hellblasters

[sour sequoia]

Oh yes dark pact Helblasters

TBH not that different than the average plague marines brick constantly getting 5+ sustain-lethals and hit rerolls

[bright dove]

I will take this time to rep the Soul Drinkers, my favorite renegade chapter. 😛

[untold swallow]

Im debating whether to write the Chaos warband my chapter destroyed in full, or just a couple survivors

[floral herald]

Jesus magnetizing the Bombard/Horde Slayer was harder than I expected

[charred bridge]

I thought this was a Trench Crusade post before I realized that channel doesnt exist on pnet

[floral herald]

Yeah those guys do sound kinda TC-y

[untold swallow]

This is maybe a stupid question given gestures at HH but Chaplains can be corrupted by the Warp, right?

[floral herald]

Anyone can be

Chaplains being hardcore indoctrinated spiritual leaders makes it less likely

[untold swallow]

I ask cuz I had an idea for having the Chief Librarian and High Chaplain be former close friends, to the point they had their respective apprentices learn from the other elder marine often

Such an exchange was happening during Warp travel, the Geller field goes somewhat wonky, and both younger marines have their minds invaded to the point they draw arms, convinced they are fighting a Daemon when in fact they are fighting their elders