Pathfinder

[solar storm]

But I guess that's an important ethos difference

[surreal basin]

[solar storm]

That class wise your Super Honorable Samurai character and your Super Honorable Follower of Golarion Charlemagne character ought to run on a similar chassis to avoid othering someone

[echo briar]

Honestly theres a ton of really cool faction architypes you could make based off of these things, they just need their own spin. Like the stereotypical ninja outfit is actually a traditional Japanese stagehand uniform. So what if you had a faction of these stagehands who where actually spies and assassins

[restive turtle]

It's hard to put into words, but this doesn't really surprise as someone who bounced off the vibe of PF2cord pretty hard - it's an oddly aggro space a fair amount of the time, and I don't necessarily disagree with a lot of the actual things people will say in there, but something about it has always just felt off and hard to engage with for me.

[turbid dagger]

What I'm mostly getting out of this is that reddit sucks still
We have random internet weirdoes doing the usual and mods.... removing 8 month old homebrews in a bout of zeal

[surreal basin]

i mean that's not just reddit, that's just the internet baby

[thorny berry]

they definitely get very defensive of the system

in a way that can be deeply annoying

[solar storm]

Yeah I know what you mean

I've experienced that on a fair few D&D-adjacent discords

Just like people being very prickly

[surreal basin]

It's a reaction to the state of the ttrpg community imo

like

[thorny berry]

I got dogpiled hard once for pointing out that like

hey classes aren't particularly well balanced against each other in terms of out of combat utility

[restive turtle]

But yeah, definitely no real reason for Samurai and Ninja to be bespoke Things in the game - really Monk shouldn't be either, that's a class I've always felt needed to be generalized to encapsulate more than just a fairly specific fantasy that plays into stereotypical martial arts tropes

[surreal basin]

a good chunk of ttrpg community is shitheads
So people develop overdeveloped defense mechanisms

[solar storm]

I think... by D&D standards they are but I have to agree

[turbid dagger]

Yeah the PF2e discord is not really a place I can have regular conversations in like here

[surreal basin]

winged has talked about it some here and how those defense mechanism have been like

a huge hurdle for this server

and making a space that bypasses that was one of her big goals

[eager mountain]

nah couldnt find the post

oh well

[solar storm]

I think Golarion handles it better than a lot of settings but it could still stand to be more universal

Lordy old settings like Greyhawk didn't

[surreal basin]

so the pf2e reddit and by extension discord has not realized or doesn't attempt to do anything about this, and has several mods with said overdeveloped mechanisms

which

leads to stuff like this

people being like

hyperaware

and willing to pull out the big guns on small stuff

because they have to or it's nazi town (in their eyes, which.... is often the case, see 40k until fairly recently)

[eager mountain]

idk if I agree about monk

[surreal basin]

monk is still pretty contentious i think

[restive turtle]

The PF2 subreddit has always had this odd extremely protective streak where it feels like every complaint someone might have about the system has to be couched in "okay this system is perfect and super duper better than 5E in every way, but these archetypes literally don't work and don't interact correctly with the actual game mechanics and also 90% of these spells are actually pointless and-"

And anyone who doesn't couch a critical post in that kind of massive "no I actually like PF2" disclaimer gets fuckin dogpiled and nitpicked to death

[surreal basin]

but i kinda don't

wanna do that conversation

if that's okay

[surreal basin]

I mean like I said, it's really not odd

[restive turtle]

Anyway I probably shouldn't air every last bit of frustration against a different community in here

[surreal basin]

most spaces online like this are like this

[solar storm]

I think the PF2 community is honestly pretty scarred by that one youtuber

Especially on reddit

[eager mountain]

ye

[surreal basin]

the pf2e community is just at the crosshairs of

widely left online
a system that gets a decent chunk of unfair criticism

so a nexus of that hyperdefense i was talking about

ultimately this isn't really a callout as much as me empathizing with this behavior

especially since reddit is the kind of place where you need that defense mechanism

sorry for getting a little over-anthropologist on this maybe

[echo briar]

yea, reddit can be nasty. The lancer sub in particular gives me an indescribable ick

You need those defenses, eventually you start shooting at your own men

[solar storm]

Reddit is kind of a mixed bag but requires really active moderation

I'm actually one of the few active lancer reddit mods so if you see weird stuff feel free to report

I'm not that active on reddit in general so I don't actually see a lot of things

[echo briar]

Just how the sub reacts to this discord in particular is telling

[restive turtle]

A lot of PF2 conversations online focus so much more on, like, I don't know how else to describe but a solid 80% of the time it feels like people are far more focused on "man I hate 5e" than they are "man I like PF2," like it's more important that you never admit 5e might have even subjective, minor merit over PF2 than it is that you engage with PF2, the actual game. I say this as someone who definitely prefers PF2 to 5e in most ways that matter, but I definitely get a vibe like a lot of the wider PF2 community has only ever played 5e and PF2 and don't have any other reference for tabletop RPGs?

[surreal basin]

(i think im mostly talking to myself so i will leave it alone)

[restive turtle]

Nah, I'm reading what you're saying, though I do have to get some sleep here soon

[solar storm]

It kind of reminds me of how many of the idk really acerbic people on /r/atheism were all like fundamentalist christian "converts"

[surreal basin]

god knows ive been critical of pf2e lol

[echo briar]

The worst part about reddit is how theres nothing better for a lot of things

[surreal basin]

pour one out for forums

[eager mountain]

your not joking like a week or so ago, one of the mods was like " yeah alot of us are down right now becuase a dude say some really bad shit and advocated for some fucked up shit and it took us a bit to catch it and we are just really sorry about that "

IIRC

uhhhh they shared what it was slightly that the dude said , but like not in alot of detail.

but it was fucked

[restive turtle]

Yeah, I see that - it's hard to really grok just how aggressively criticism can get shut down over there otherwise, it's like guaranteed to happen regardless of how much merit the criticism does or doesn't have

[echo briar]

Lancer should make a myspace

I feel like that would solve most of the problems

[silver geyser]

See, I want only one thing from the 1e ninja: The ability to go really invisible basically at-will.

[surreal basin]

1e ninja can make

THE GOD OF SHURIKENS

[silver geyser]

Also a valid want, because that's not something covered by 2e atm, iirc

[surreal basin]

IS THAT HOW YOU SPELL THAT

[silver geyser]

I'm pretty sure it's spelled shoryuken. 😛

[surreal basin]

BOOOOOOOOOO

anyway oh no i dont want that from 1e

i mean i do want thrown weapon support please

it's not the worst but thrown weapons widely suck as weapons

[eager mountain]

yeah I looked this up just now and .......yeah I dont think ill share it

[echo briar]

It’s weird there’s no thrown weapon archetype

[solar storm]

Thrown weapons get a bunch of weird downsides

[eager mountain]

yeah

[solar storm]

Like how hard it is to draw and buy them mostly

[surreal basin]

maybe they could do more damage

also

[echo briar]

I’ve been meaning to make this into an archetype for like 4 years now https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=J3eotWyZv5c

[silver geyser]

Exemplar giving thrown weapon support sparked joy in me.

Ah, found the god of shuriken trick from 1e:
All the Stars in the Sky (Ex) (Chronicle of Legends pg. 6): Certain master ninjas possess a seemingly limitless supply of their trusted weapons. Whenever a ninja with this trick buys a set of 50 identical magic shuriken, she thereafter replenishes them at no cost and never runs out. This stock of magical shuriken can be upgraded as though it were a normal magic weapon, and shuriken upgraded this way likewise never run out.

Ye, I'd like this.

Just in general.

[turbid dagger]

Thrown weapons have a few neat things but they're mostly scattered around across different sources, its hard to get someone who spends most of their feats on throwing weapons

[surreal basin]

oh well also there's a thing where you can throw a fuck load of shurikens at once

and like

you don't have to draw them because you can hold 5 per hand

so if you can get someone flatfooted you can just annhilate them with sneak attack 20 times

[turbid dagger]

Hurling Charge off viking and Double Throw off Dual Weapon Warrior are some spicy ones off the top of my head

[surreal basin]

the one that bounces weapons from one guy to another

also

[silver geyser]

Ahhhh, Starshot Style!

[surreal basin]

uhhhh boomerangs should get returning innately fight me

[turbid dagger]

They get a bad version already to be fair
Where it returns if you miss

[surreal basin]

oh yeah i mean it should also return on a hit :3

[high helm]

accurate

catching up to all this stuff going on in the pf2e online spaces, cyan has been keeping me posted. kind of unfortunate

I hope everyone here is insulated from all that

[turbid dagger]

I would be pleased if that were the case, but my hated logic brain telling me 'that makes no sense' makes me not mad that it is not

Also yeah fortunately I do not go on reddit
And keep every channel of the PF2e discord muted except the LFG one 😛

[silver geyser]

About my experience, yeah.

And most of the people I still play PF with still want to do 1e.

So

shrug

[turbid dagger]

1e.......................

[silver geyser]

The one game I have of it is for the perma GM who let me be a player.

And also Kingmaker.

[surreal basin]

im so cool and know about the server so good

[silver geyser]

Like, there's not a single elfgame on the docket for most of the groups I run for.

[high helm]

anyway gonna wander away from this thread again, glad people here are doing okay

[surreal basin]

[high helm]

also aaaa someone was pming me earlier about nagajor and it made me want to vaporize into a cloud of plasma

the existential ennui of being Seen

[surreal basin]

youre so cool tho

[turbid dagger]

😔 <-------- 👀
I feel you

[turbid dagger]

Kingmaker is good fun
I am playing the 2e one right now 😌
We haven't started kingmaking though
We're currently uh
Performing a Yakuza-esque insane front door brawling raid on what seems like an entire city of mitflits forrrrr
A necklace? Hopefully?

[silver geyser]

Ahhh, my players just got finished with that too!

They were wading through like unstoppable gods

And then they found ||the tick||

[turbid dagger]

We are at the end I think
||We took out the giant centipede with some very lucky hits before it could do much, and have felled the tick but not the rider himself||

[silver geyser]

My players took one look at ||the chasm|| and noped away from it.

[echo briar]

Other than beast kin and call of the wild stuff, is there any way to make a turtle in PF2?

[turbid dagger]

Not right now I believe

[echo briar]

I’m in a reverse TMNT oneshot next week, and I have been designated as the one old turtle sage to a group of ratfolk

[silver geyser]

A generous interpretation of lizardfolk?

[surreal basin]

struggling to speak: aww... awakkkkkennnn.... turrrrrrt

[echo briar]

That’s sadly coming out too late

[turbid dagger]

Yeah they did say no howl of the wild

[echo briar]

That’s late may right

[turbid dagger]

Heavvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvily reflavored Kashrishi

They've got the feats for 'wise yet durable tort beast'

[echo briar]

Luckily commander playtest is coming out on Sunday, so class is conveniently covered

But it’s also ancestral paragon, so ancestry matters a lot

[surreal basin]

no for sure

that's why i said it like that

because they said not to but howl is corrupting my mind

[solar storm]

Lowkey refluffed Conrasu has turtle or tortoise vibes

[turbid dagger]

Also wow Nethys really IS fucked
One of these is not like the others

[solar storm]

• armored shell
• likes to sun itself

[surreal basin]

yeah

[solar storm]

Ok not that much more i'm stretching this as far as it goes

[surreal basin]

also hasnt been updated in a month but its fine im fine

[turbid dagger]

Also
🤝
Player facing Rend............ I need it....................................
Large ancestries................................................................................................................................

[surreal basin]

larg

they did me so good

[echo briar]

Wow, PFS has really been implementing stealth errata

[surreal basin]

they knew what i wanted

and they gave it to me

[turbid dagger]

Big
Big girl with rend 😳 😳 😳 😳 😳
Also, more dinosaurs

We're prepping for Abomination Vaults and I said I was super excited and my GM said jokingly 'im gonna replace all the enemies with dinosaurs'
As if that would ruin it
And I was like
'are you nuts'
'i want a 9 level dinosaur megadungeon now'
And the idea has been popping back into my head on and off ever since

[surreal basin]

dino

[echo briar]

Level 11 dinosaur fort

[turbid dagger]

Dinosaur fort is such a fucking ridiculous spell

[limber comet]

I want a arcanoarcheologist wizard school

Based on digging and earth magic

Sorry I was thinking about fossils

[silver geyser]

https://tenor.com/view/jurassic-park-entance-gate-gif-7878552

[echo briar]

Actually, how old is golarion? Is it old enough to make fossils?

[silver geyser]

Yes

[solar storm]

afaik it is a normally old planet but I'm not sure how long life's history is

[turbid dagger]

Yes
There's a fossil golem even

[solar storm]

Probably old enough for fossils

[silver geyser]

In fact, there's an even more thriving business for fossils thanks to the fossil golem.

[echo briar]

I more meant “does the fossil golem make sense with how old the world is”

[turbid dagger]

Yes

[silver geyser]

"Intact fossilized bones are difficult components to scrounge, much less whole skeletons. An alternate way to obtain them is to hire expert hunters or adventurers to seek out live dinosaurs, bring back the bones, and use magic to turn them to stone. Of course, some purists prefer genuine fossilized bones and are willing to pay the price for their acquisition. Either way, opportunities await enterprising souls with the proper tools and several bags of holding."

This is just such a cool adventure hook.

[limber comet]

Also like there are definitely spells that can instantly fossilize you

[silver geyser]

Flesh to Stone. 😄

[limber comet]

Beyond like, the standard petrification

[silver geyser]

... hrm.

[turbid dagger]

Yes
But as mentioned a few times
There are totally natural fossils on golarion

[silver geyser]

I wonder

What sort of culinary monstrosities can you make with stone to flesh?

[limber comet]

I don't wanna know

[silver geyser]

You have the wrong pfp then. 😛

[echo briar]

Pumice is like fleshy popcorn

[silver geyser]

horrifying

[echo briar]

Sand gets weird

[silver geyser]

Boy does it.

Marble's gotta be good, right?

[surreal basin]

what meat DOES stone to flesh turn into

[silver geyser]

Marbled flesh and all that.

[surreal basin]

like

what cells

[silver geyser]

Does the base stone change what that is?

These are the real questions.

[surreal basin]

is it the same flavorless meat that would be produced by uhhh

create food

[silver geyser]

Probably not, because that's based in a different branch of magic, classically speaking.

[solar storm]

It depends on what kind of stone it was I bet

granite is beef etc

[silver geyser]

It's a shame it's too high tier a spell to make a business out of easily

But it could be a weird exotic restaurant

[turbid dagger]

Oh I bet nobles go nuts for weirdo freakoid magic food

Harry Potter type shit

[silver geyser]

Absolutely

[surreal basin]

this now begs the question

do different types of flesh

turn into different types of stone

[solar storm]

I think that adds up

[silver geyser]

I would say so

[turbid dagger]

I wonder how much of a known thing sorcerers are
Like, obviously people know of them in abstract but like
Are there any organizations specifically for sorcerers
Any Procedure for a child suddenly becoming half dragon
If a child starts glowing do people go 'oh, sorcerer'
I'm kind of having a hard time envisioning them as part of the world

[solar storm]

Maybe not the best example but Hermea has a state-run sorcerer eugenics program

[turbid dagger]

I can imagine what a wizard or druid did as they worked towards becoming a PC, but Sorcerers are kind of just
'eyyyy I got da juice'
Except not really because they still need to practice their magic to get better at it

I'll look up that hermea thing!

[limber comet]

I mean specifically for sorcerers? Probably not but I imagine most magic schools and such would probably take you in due to like. Your skill in it

[solar storm]

Mwangi has the Uomoto people with a lot more sorcerers than average

[turbid dagger]

O oh
Hermea is
That place
Okay yeah probably not useful for seeing how they're viewed in wider civilization

[solar storm]

But they seem to use a semi-formalized mentorship system

[turbid dagger]

I did not recognize the name at a glance LMAO

[limber comet]

I mean the thing with sorcerers is that, since their source of magic can be just about anything, their reception is varied

An arcane sorcerer is likely viewed differently from a diabolic sorcerer

Trying to "catch-all" sorcerers is. Not a fruitful task I think

[turbid dagger]

This is super useful though, thanks!

[solar storm]

Aha another good hit

Tang Mai in Tian Xia

Sorcerer school

(Country is also run by 5 sorcerer sisters)

[turbid dagger]

But yeah this all kind of blooms from me hyperfixating on my upcoming phoenix sorcerer
And trying to get myself in their head
What do Sorcerers Do
When they learn new spells are they studying or just going like
Ooooooh yeah I got da juice, I'm so cool, I got this

....I wonder if stuff like this is covered in secrets of magic

[light gyro]

in terms of real-world parallels, i imagine its something like learning a new technique. like a fighting style/acrobat performance/sports tactic

but yknow, with muscles beyond our mundane set

[unborn rain]

Sorcerers learn and practice magic it's just an internal well of power rather than a learned one taking from the world around them I think

Like a druid takes power from the natural world to cast spells in service of it

[light gyro]

i know the magaambaya takes on sorcerers for one, so there's definitely benefit in being educated on how to cultivate that power

[unborn rain]

I mean, the magaambaya takes in everyone. It's a magic school, you get your first cantrip from there if you start as a like martial

[solar storm]

I think that’s a good comparison

In a modern university sorcerers are the sports science people

Look you gotta eat protein within 30 minutes of casting while your Thaumabolic Window is open or you won’t get stronger

[turbid dagger]

I see
That makes sense yeah
I've always had trouble visualizing how a sorcerer improves
And I rankle at the idea of them just naturally getting more powerful, because I don't wanna play a cosmic trust fund kid lmao
But if I think of it as like
Improving your ability to channel your power or intelligently control it
That's cool

Like an athlete

[light gyro]

strength of thousands book 5 spoiler
||my party's wizard has gotten a lot of use out of Hypercognition, and i cant wait for the king of biting ants to use it on the party and start absolutely hammering their weak saves ||

further book 5 spoilers ||time stop -> (disappearance, hypercognition) -> (foresight, move) -> (move, illusory creature). absolutely disgusting opener.||

[fossil temple]

https://2e.aonprd.com/Backgrounds.aspx?ID=390 I can't believe Paizo made a collaboration with Arrowhead! wow /j

[fossil temple]

How do you 'recharge' the Scroll Robes?
Do you buy a new scroll and that's it or you need to pay someone to write on it?

[worthy stump]

looks like the latter, according to the Inscribed trait. gotta Craft a Scroll with the robes

which you can also do yourself, if you got Crafting and know the spell

[fossil temple]

So it won't do much good for a non-spellcaster class.
Thank ya!

[light gyro]

if you can get your hands on someone who can *cast the spell you'd only need magical crafting iirc

[solar tendon]

it's just quick draw scroll

and you can take scroll trickster to craft spells without having a spell list

[fossil temple]

perfect, thank ya

[clever cobalt]

Reading Tian Xia

Love the martial arts cultivation nation

Quain

[young chasm]

late but the nodachi weapons tries to deliver on the iaijutsu fantasy through Brace trait, i just wish that trait was better

and also >advanced

[turbid dagger]

I don't think that's what its trying to go for but I suppose so
Considering Nodachis are too large to practically do that with

[worthy stump]

yeah, i think nodachi brace trait is more a nod to their use as an anti-cavalry weapon

[young chasm]

if monster hunter can do it

so can i

[worthy stump]

i can respect a nodachi quickdraw

[clever cobalt]

How do you think the Inner Sea nations, notably Absalom and Taldor, would react to the rise of Exemplars?

Also Cheliax, to a lesser extent

[barren cipher]

i think it depends how they show up

if it's just 'sudden increase in talented people' i don't think there will be much of a reaction

if level 17 exemplars are popping up left right and centre it's going to be a shitshow

[clever cobalt]

Admittedly I'm thinking of a theoretical Exemplar character I may write about

And fair

(Also the same isekai idea I talked about yesterday or the day before. The idea being the death of a god somehow transports them through time and space, potentially before the Godsrain even happens)

[barren cipher]

glad i'm not in the pf2e discord today

[limber comet]

Is the samurai ninja drama still raging

[barren cipher]

there's a subredditdrama post and everything

[fossil temple]

yes...

[warped orbit]

it's a whole thing yeah

[tough perch]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqGl5mt8pA4 so, about nodachi being too large

[fossil temple]

Man, from Female custodes to Pathginder drama

[worthy stump]

damn, what a draw

[warped orbit]

more broadly, there's been a lot of mod activity around the topic
and people are unhappy with the response, because the mods have been deleting a lot of posts

[clever cobalt]

I dont feel like getting involved in the Drama but what is it anout?

[solar storm]

Oh wow its still going strong (I unsubbed from the subreddit to avoid getting it thrown my way)

[fossil temple]

"Wanting to play as a samurai/ninja is racist"

[solar storm]

Mods are being very zealous about removing anything which crosses a fuzzy line regarding samurai or ninja classes and homebrew

[barren cipher]

samurai class/subclass/content is segregation

[clever cobalt]

Mhm

[sinful gyro]

I think the homebrew thing is tangential

It was posted on a different subreddit I think

[fossil temple]

interesting how he didn't said anything about hte cleric using the arabian clothing

[warped orbit]

it was
but it was also removed after being up for 8 months, so who knows

[solar storm]

https://www.reddit.com/r/SubredditDrama/comments/1cdhk8a/hey_buddy_i_know_youre_having_big_feelings_about/?share_id=rtIog8QUR-Hk8SzliM1cM

Oh a drama breakdown

[fossil temple]

Hear me out
Swatchbuckler as samurai/ronin

[solar storm]

nice I actually didn't really know what it was

[solar storm]

Ironically swashbuckler is the other discourse du jour for pathfinder right now lol

Though just for unrelated reasons

[tough perch]

yeah, the homebrew was from a different subreddit, the people who originally brought it up as evidence of pathfinder sub's mods banning things for no reason felt pretty bad faith

[fossil temple]

oh, what exactly?
I saw some people saying Swash should be buffed

[solar storm]

I think kind of just milling about how its a sort of awkward martial?

[surreal basin]

I was actually thinking of making a swash class archetype

[solar storm]

I'm not following it closely I just play PF2 I don't talk about it online much these days

[surreal basin]

for the drow in my setting

[barren cipher]

swash is a little awkward

[fossil temple]

I just grab pics/characters and try to make them work in pathfinder so shrugs

and tunr them into furries but shhhh

[warped orbit]

it is admittedly very weird timing that it got removed only now, after being linked in discussion on the main reddit
but ehh

[barren cipher]

they're sort of a little clunky until they hit bleeding finisher, and then if you have blood you're just fucked

[surreal basin]

it's a little awkward - not sure it's desperately in need of work, but they could make it a little better at early levels

[fossil temple]

an main argument is acrobacy level up naturally with you

[warped orbit]

at least, Swash should get auto Acrobatics scaling IMO

[surreal basin]

they're kinda just worse rogue early on imo

[warped orbit]

and maybe for their style skill too

[solar storm]

I lowkey think a lot of PF2 classes need a few levels to get into the swing of things

I think its one of the knock on effects of balance working after level 10

[clever cobalt]

11-20 APs are pretty fun for that reason

[surreal basin]

yeah but in my setting drow are very much based on the idea of the swordmaster just wearing a gi, like the ashina guys in sekiro

[solar storm]

Wizard and Psychic also feel real bad to me until level 3 and I'm not that psyched until level 5

[clever cobalt]

Since I think that's where PF2e hits its stride imo

[surreal basin]

but you can't use a katana or nodachi as a swash which

gimme

[tough perch]

i mean, it might be related in the sense that the pathfinder homebrew sub also thouhgt a samurai class was in bad taste, but that has no bearing on the main pathfinder sub's mods

[fossil temple]

for me a sweetspot is lv8

[solar storm]

Yeah that seems like a reasonable place to add in an archetype or something

8 is a good level yeah

[surreal basin]

it would probably be like

[fossil temple]

like, grab this, make in pathfinder
Fun project for a character I will never play :3

[surreal basin]

you can make those weapons finesse and viable for swash, but you can't use armor and have to two hand them or something

and then make their skill some kinda... duelist thing

not sure about that part yet

clearly it should be disarm

[warped orbit]

the post was up for 8 months is mostly the thing
and the argument is that one of the mods on the main reddit also mods the homebrew reddit
but anyway, I do mostly agree that one could be tangential

[solar storm]

Disarm is at least credible now

[fossil temple]

Disarm the monk
Break his knuckles

[solar storm]

I think it'll always be an in awkward spot since it doesn't work on many monsters

[surreal basin]

i said everything i think about the drama last night and i don't think it's more complicated than that

[warped orbit]

still think Disarm should not be actually contingent on the target having a weapon

[clever cobalt]

From what I gathered, PF2e Mods are being condescending assholes even if their concerns are valid

[warped orbit]

just for the success effect

[clever cobalt]

And way too generous with mod action

Is that roughly correct?

[surreal basin]

same alaen

[warped orbit]

that's mostly it, yeah

[clever cobalt]

I never liked the mods on the PF2e subreddit tbh

[fossil temple]

Then tell me
Link from Breath of the Wild
Rogue, Ranger or Traumaturge?

[clever cobalt]

Got a feel like that before

[barren cipher]

they aren't great.

[surreal basin]

ranger

[barren cipher]

my recollection of them is of authoritatively lecturing the chat with weird and non-factual opinions

[surreal basin]

100% ranger

[clever cobalt]

How so, if I may ask?

[barren cipher]

ian fleming invented ninjas

[fossil temple]

Can you elaborate? And which Edge?

[surreal basin]

all of his weird rune powers are just equivalent to relic

everything beyond that is typical ranger stuff

[solar storm]

I agree

[surreal basin]

a bunch of wilderness survival, fighting enemies (usually in a hit and run fashion)

[fossil temple]

So the master sword has finesse ?

[clever cobalt]

Rangers don't need finesse

[surreal basin]

nah he's a strength ranger

[clever cobalt]

Some are perfectly capable of getting into Strength yeah

[barren cipher]

i think he just has protagonist stats

[fossil temple]

Link as a STR ranger?Interesting

[true delta]

Where is Zelda discourse coming from?

[surreal basin]

I would say probably still flurry tho

it's not discourse

what

[fossil temple]

to change the subject from the drama to something interesting

[true delta]

Not Discourse discourse

[surreal basin]

not everything is discourse

[true delta]

talk

[barren cipher]

i think we just started a new thread yeah

[fossil temple]

and something everyone can have an constructive opinion on

[surreal basin]

discourse means a specific thing

[warped orbit]

Str is most of the time better for melee IMO
you just have better weapon selection

[surreal basin]

but also yes im ngl i think "i don't like the mods" is starting to grind against the no internet drama rules

[barren cipher]

he does use big hammers and big swords quite a lot

[surreal basin]

he does have protag stats though yes

he has to have some moderate dex

[fossil temple]

Instead of 'protag stats' i would just say he's a high level

[surreal basin]

because like.... bows

i mean yeah that too

but i will say key stat strength

[true delta]

So will How of the Wind enable Breath of the Wild roleplay? :P

[fossil temple]

+1 Int +2 wis at least?

[tough perch]

whenever the subject is "how would character X be in game Y" i always think, "do we want the themeing of the character or do we want to represent his abilities?"

[surreal basin]

hes known as a great swordsman

not as a great archer

[fossil temple]

One or the other tbh

[surreal basin]

i think in this case we can pretty easily do both

[tough perch]

for breath of the wild link, theme wise is for sure ranger

[fossil temple]

Theming can come from Roleplay alone and re-flavoring

[surreal basin]

all of his runes are magic powers that he gets from his adventure so

no point in putting those in the build

[tough perch]

but in terms of ability, he feels more like a fighter?

maybe with weapon improviser

[fossil temple]

Link I always trhink in flexibility of tools , so I was going rogue or Ranger, even Trauma turge because of all the different weapons he gets

[surreal basin]

he doesn't use a lot of random magic items IN BOTW

[tough perch]

he's just good at hitting stuff with a variety of things

[surreal basin]

some other links could be thaum

but not this one

imo

[barren cipher]

he has a bunch of magic items but they seem pretty bespoke, it doesn't map to wand of fireball or anything

[fossil temple]

Ocarina you think would be more of a Thaum?

[surreal basin]

yeah probably

but even then

[fossil temple]

I think he would 100% have Trick Magic Item tho

AND Strong back

[surreal basin]

hes just a guy with a lot of items

[fossil temple]

But he knows how to use those items well

[surreal basin]

a thaum specifcally knows a lot of stuff which

link never does

[fossil temple]

true

[true delta]

Could Twilight Princess' link be a fighter with the Druid dedication? Cuz 🐺

[tough perch]

also botw has no magic ability, so we could easily make him a switch hitter in detriment to his mental stats

[surreal basin]

i guess you could see the uhhh

[barren cipher]

if he's in ocarina he can probably just take, like, bard dedication

[surreal basin]

the boss weakspots

as an expression of exploit vuln

?

[fossil temple]

High Perception

[trail nova]

This is one of the things I really want in 2e: http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/armiger

[barren cipher]

yeah i think thaum is a bit too specific

[trail nova]

And is perfect for Link

[barren cipher]

he's just a little sword man

[surreal basin]

anyway imo, ranger or fighter, if ranger, flurry

[fossil temple]

true, good call

[surreal basin]

because one of his main offensive abilities is literally called flurry

[barren cipher]

he also has whirlwind strike

[surreal basin]

ye

[fossil temple]

and is good with animals, yeah

[surreal basin]

either way he has the dedication of the other class lmao

[fossil temple]

Werewolf archetype when ;w;
A player had to use the Ghoul archetyupe and reflavour for his werewolf Character

[surreal basin]

well

the archetype

but same differencd

alright yeah sure i type good

link is one of the easier toons

[fossil temple]

oh god yeah , i was not even thinking with the free archetype rule

[surreal basin]

getting a motherfucker like corvo

[true delta]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBv0wK6oINc

[surreal basin]

that's where shit gets

complicated

[fossil temple]

yes please

[surreal basin]

(still not that hard if youre not attached to specific powers, laughing shadow magus + witch archetype)

[solar storm]

I think Corvo is easy

[fossil temple]

proving yet again that ToTk is best on PC

[solar storm]

Fighter/Rogue with the GM's nutty homebrew supernatural power rules granted in the campaign :p

I mean this in a kind way but the Outsider has big GM's OC vibes

[barren cipher]

you could do like inventor rogue too

[fossil temple]

Corvo Inventor? Why?

[barren cipher]

he uses a bunch of gadgets and such, doesn't he?

[solar storm]

He uses a lot of gadgets and has custom weapons and tools

[barren cipher]

or am i conflating him a bit too much with garrett from thief

[solar storm]

I do buy it I just overlooked it since he doesn't design them

But the play loop is there

[fossil temple]

.
Would link be a Tengu because he can only shout and speak short centenceses ?

[fossil temple]

True, could be a fun one too

[barren cipher]

hup urgh skeg haap yahhhh

[fossil temple]

"What's your name?"
-Link
-Hippopotamus

oh yeah, what info we have on the leaked dragon heritage?

I don't know if I asked this here

[turbid dagger]

'When (X subclass) wields a weapon with the Two Hand trait with a free hand, they always benefit from that trait, even when wielding the weapon one handed' 🤔

[surreal basin]

mayhaps something like that yeah

[turbid dagger]

Seems like the best way to get that going while still preserving the vast majority of swash feats

Well vast majority is hyperbole but

A lot want a free hand

And lets you do fucked up things with like
Disarming Twist

I do think it would be neat if a subclass let you nudge the finesse damage dice up a bit
Like as its Thing
Thaum can already get d10 agile finesse punches with a few feats so why not

[carmine egret]

Rounding up a party for Beginner Box and hopefully Abomination Vaults after, very pleased with what we have so far

• Gnome undine druid who's a surfer chick/beach comber
• Elf ranger lumberjack who tells stories about forest cryptids that no one believes
• Old halfling mastermind rogue who's supposedly just travelling to see the sights but might have been forced to leave town by his crime family... family
• Gorgeous but dumb fighter who used to be a slave gladiator until Absalom outlawed slavery, at which point he quit in annoyance when his crooked manager still took most of the profits

[sudden lark]

That last one makes me think of Enthralling Victor from MtG

[limber comet]

Consider

Sf2e campaign but it's just Sonic Colors

[craggy thunder]

The what?

[limber comet]

Idk lol

There was drama I only mildly paid attention

[tough barn]

PF2e subreddit drama, it's really not important tbh

scroll up 2 hours ago and you can find it if super curious

[craggy thunder]

Lord Jesus

[echo briar]

Based on the subreddit drama, I've been thinking about how samurai or ninja like architypes could work. I feel like they need a twist, something that acknowledges their real life counterparts, while making them their own thing. I have a good idea for ninja (the stereotypical ninja costume is actually a stagehand uniform, so this architype is about a group of stagehands that are actually spies), but can't get any good ideas for samurai. any ideas?

[barren cipher]

i think not bothering with real life counterparts and lunging directly towards myth and fantasy is probably the play, honestly

[echo briar]

well, the myth is part of the IRL counterpart

those are all IRL myths

[barren cipher]

samurai is rough because there's such a wide range of samurai fantasies on display in history, myth, media and gaming that i don't think you can really even encompass them in a class

at least with ninja if we don't talk about magic we can just go 'this is a rogue'

[echo briar]

Yea, that’s why it needs a twist

[tough perch]

thing is, samurai don't have anything solid that there isn't already in other options

i'd do it through archetypes

[echo briar]

Thats literal what I said

[tough perch]

oh yeah, sorry, heads been fuzzy today

but i also was going to say which archetypes i could imagine

and it could go one for a horse archer, but that also could easily be an expansion of chavalier

or something about iaijutsu

like some ability that you have to have your weapon sheathed to use, and also some action compression to sheath the weapon

other than that i can't really think of something that a samurai class or archetype could have that isnt covered by other classes or archetypes

[echo briar]

an architype about the teachings of Sam urai, an Englishman brought by Baba Yaga who heard of Japan once

[tough perch]

an archetype that's an actual weeb could be an amazing idea for a april fools thing like battlezoo has been doing every year

[paper inlet]

Isn't it funny how the monk has the stance to throw a lot of shuriken

So you can flurry with them

And also make them magical
Tbh the only ingredient missing is stealth

[turbid dagger]

Not really honestly
Dex gamer, monk is

[limber comet]

https://vxtwitter.com/darkergrey_art/status/1783858821913289014?t=rnHwwAgZUzusCb6eEFkBmA&s=19

Your honor I love them

[eager mountain]

https://fxtwitter.com/danielhkwan/status/1784013311702446144

[true delta]

Howl of the Wind will have playable werecreatures.

[clever cobalt]

Finished Tian Xia

It's good

[sinful gyro]

What stood out to you?

[clever cobalt]

I like Quain

And Minata

I also like Linvarre, the former Taldan colony

Linvarra is probably one of the better places to live in Tian Xia, from what I've seen

[heavy mesa]

I like Valash Raj

Muh mandala feudalism

Kinda disappointed that Shenmen is still such a shithole

[clever cobalt]

Always has been

[heavy mesa]

Yeah but it sorta makes me not want to get into Season of Ghosts(which i was initially excited for)

[clever cobalt]

Isn't Shenmen's whole thing that it's a horror-filled hellhole?

Fair

If that matters, Season of Ghosts is pretty good so far

Just got to book 3

[heavy mesa]

Because it ends in “intentionally mismanaged third world country ruled by spider bitches”

Which honestly makes the Jorogumo sound like OldDrow now that i think about it

Shit is Shenmen just Menzoberrenzan above ground?

[clever cobalt]

Dunno what that is

[heavy mesa]

Uh the big 5e drow city

I forget what PF1e’s big drow city was called

[limber comet]

I mean kinda

It's basically ustalav with more Asian inspired horror monsters

It's supposed to be that way

Wanshou is also still fucked up and waterlogged

[heavy mesa]

Yeah but Wanshou got expanded upon in a big way

Shenmen feels less like an actual country and more like a stateless region that the Jorogumo are farming

[limber comet]

Because that's exactly what it is

It is a shithole

That's the point

[heavy mesa]

I suppose the weird bit is that the Jorogumo are intentionally letting the infrastructure decay for shits and giggles

You’d think they’d love to tax/shakedown merchant caravans for expensive stuff

[limber comet]

They very well might, but I'm satisfied with what we got on Shenmen because it's a good springboard for writing

[heavy mesa]

Its clear they have pretensions of rulership, but of the “monster” ruled states, Shenmen feels like the least successful

Honestly i’d prefer it if Shenmen was an ungoverned anarchy and the jorogumo were just one batch of horrors among several

Or the jorogumo were in a power struggle against the insane imperial ghosts

Currently it comes off as this weird limbo where the jorogumo pretend to be an actual government but don’t do anything governments actually do besides taxing people

Like they’re super hidden puppet master coded but apparently them being in charge is public knowledge

[light gyro]

Make some fellas for society games

[clever cobalt]

Gunslinger or Inventor Gnoll?

Or Fighter

[clever cobalt]

Do you think a Kingmaker-esque Kingdom Builder game, but set in the Mana Wastes, could be interesting as a concept?

[stuck bane]

Damn two for two on my inventor going down to a crit during a session

[novel merlin]

I thought about doing on in the worldwound post WotR

[echo briar]

So, we're getting the battle cry playtest, but that has been stated to be a placeholder name for the actual book. Do you think we'll get the actual name tomorrow, and what will it be?

and more importantly, why are they using a placeholder name?

[solar storm]

Iirc placeholder names are pretty common

Though usually I think the name is finalized by the time the playtest comes out

Also is it tomorrow or Monday?

[echo briar]

crap, I thought it was the 28th

[solar storm]

I don’t know which it is haha I lost track

[echo briar]

although depending on your timezone, it could still be tomorrow

[turbid dagger]

Its the 29th according to whatever timezone they used

[solar storm]

PST I assume

[echo briar]

Are we sure their using the Gregorian calendar?

[frank crystal]

Hmm, looking at the lich stat blocks for which one to use for my lich villain

I think I’m gonna use the horde lich

And bump em up a bit

Because the sentry mechanics seem real neat

I’ll include normal liches as like, a more generic lich statblock

And save horde lich for the big villain

[eager mountain]

its not gonna be written from the perspective of season of ghosts

i never got to get past the first chapter of season of ghosts

soooo idk if the adventure helps shenmen in any way

siinnnnce it takes place 200 years ago

or so

[eager mountain]

nah thier using the absalonian callender

[echo briar]

Wait, we got the play test around 2000 years ago!

Quick, check the Roman archives

[eager mountain]

@echo briar the callender most used int he inner sea is just the Absalom reckonning

then youve got the other ones from other continents

[echo briar]

Yea, and it’s thousands of years behind ours. Hence the joke

[eager mountain]

fair

is it ?

its currently 4724 AR*

[heavy mesa]

the weird thing is that it should be circa 1920s on Pathfinder Earth

[eager mountain]

yep

[heavy mesa]

for whatever reason Anastasia added a century to her reckoning

[eager mountain]

pretttyyyy sure earth isnt even in golarrion's galaxy

its wierd

[heavy mesa]

It, like Forgotten Realms, is connected via Portals

Its kinda funny that not one, but two archmages who changed the face of Golarion are from Earth

Nethys and Baba Yaga

[eager mountain]

becuase im pretty sure this aint the milkie way

tho could be

ah ok

[frank crystal]

I’m adapting my BG3 character to PF2E

And I’m wondering what you guys think the closest champion cause is to oath of ancients paladins

I’m leaning towards liberator right now because of oath of ancients focus on like, stoking and protecting joy in others

But idk it still doesn’t feel right

[barren cipher]

there isn't really a direct conversion unfortunately

[frank crystal]

Yah but I’m looking for at least the closest

[turbid dagger]

God choice may matter more thematically there honestly

[frank crystal]

True actually

I know there are a lot of nature gods in Golarion

[barren cipher]

i think a druid with champ archetype might be the closest you can get

pretty painful to get into though

[frank crystal]

I’d probably go the other way around because this guy is like, a heavy armor great weapon paladin

Just grab druid archetype for the spellcasting

[barren cipher]

while it's true that champ 2 is a pretty empty level unless you're in a campaign where there are a lot of a specific enemy type, caster dedications lean towards the unsatisfying

outside a few edge cases

[frank crystal]

I mean I’m probably building them towards free archetype

All my play groups play with it

[barren cipher]

i wonder if there's a better archetype

[frank crystal]

I think I’d prefer bard or sorcerer just because I’d prefer a charisma caster

But like, I’m not building them to be good

I’m building them to adapt my baldurs gate character

[barren cipher]

a primal sorc would be fine too

[frank crystal]

Oh true

[barren cipher]

yeah but i mean

archetype spellcasting doesn't really help fulfil the fantasy

[frank crystal]

I mean it does some stuff, oath of ancients has a decent amount about grasping roots which is a cantrip, and honestly I mostly play it for misty step which is a low level spell

[turbid dagger]

Slamming fists on table
Phoenix Sorc Phoenix Sorc

[frank crystal]

That’s a primal bloodline?

I thought it was divine

Also ngl

https://2e.aonprd.com/Bloodlines.aspx?ID=15

It is very funny that this RAW can’t be chosen by me

I’ve never played fist of the Ruby pheonix

I’m breaking the rules by playing this

[turbid dagger]

That line is like
Odd
I just ignore it honestly
Its not listed as an Access or anything, and its not like Hao Jin is the only Phoenix Adjacent Creature in Golarion
In fact, her dog ass didn't even get her power from a phoenix

She got revived after burning to death and came out Like That

[turbid dagger]

Do you think it would be possible to hack PF2e so that save spells make a roll against a reflex dc, instead of the enemy making a reflex saving throw against the caster DC
I like how 4e did it where reflex fort and will were just flat defenses like AC and attacks targeted one of the four

(This almost certainly is not worth the effort with the automation that exists, but I like thinking about it)

[solar storm]

In theory it’s easy since spell attack and DCs scale similarly

I’m not sure you should

[eager mountain]

yeah I was gonna say i dont really see the point in doing that

but I feel like I would come off as baligerent

[turbid dagger]

My main thought is that it would mildly streamline play by just like
Letting you do the action yourself instead of waiting for people to roll saves

[young chasm]

https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=3108&NoRedirect=1

there's already precedent in the game, although it's not all spells, just attack rolls

how the math would work out probably needs extensive playtesting

[turbid dagger]

Oh thats a sexy item sweet lord

But yeah
Someone on a stream I was watching summed saving throws up nicely imo
They said that saving throws are kind of like asking the enemy to make an attack against your spell's AC to avoid the effects, and they complained that was kind of ass backwards
And I.... agree?

[unborn rain]

But it's not that

it's like avoiding a trap

I'm trying to better verbalise points against that line of thinking but it's just like, that's not what it is. It's just false

[turbid dagger]

When you cast a spell, you are trying to overcome their defenses and hurt them, same as swinging a sword
Its odd that its them rolling and not you and imo kind of just bogs play down and makes people have to remember more rules

(And also, what led me on this line of thought, makes play by post WAY more of a pain in the ass)

[unborn rain]

When you cast like, fireball. You arent going to miss, its up to your opponent to try to dodge it

It's a different dice roll because it's not like swining a sword

You can miss with a sword and if you do, you do nothing. Even if you wing someone with a fireball it's still hurts

[turbid dagger]

But like
When you swing a sword, you aren't just going to mad whiff and swing behind you either
You are swinging it at them
When you roll under their AC, their defenses are causing the attack to have no effect
And notably in this hypothetical a failure on such a 'reflex attack' would still do damage, same as a success on a reflex save
You did not quite hit the mark but a fireball is a fireball, they can't dodge all of it

(Splash weapons are literally this, also)

[unborn rain]

I think we just have different ideas about how spells work and the amount of work it is to do Saves against DCs.

I've never played a PbP game so I have no idea about how much effort that is

[solar tendon]

isn't spell attack and spell dc identical

like

they use the same stat and the same proficiency

so statistically it's the same

the main problem comes when you're hitting multiple people tbh - but even then you can just make seperate 'attack' rolls

but other than that pf2e rolls are all reversible

I guess if there's a big difference it's that fortune and misfortune effects can only affect the rolling party?

and therefore you have a bunch of feats that let you reroll attacks and a bunch that let you reroll saves but none that let your reroll anti-saves

[worthy stump]

you'd also have to consider how to deal with abilities like Evasion and such, though those are pretty rare on NPCs

[echo briar]

Because the roller wins ties, whoever rolls effectively gets a +1

If I have a spell dc of 15, and my opponent has +5 reflex, they need to roll a 10 or higher to pass (55%) or a 9 or lower to fail (45%). If I have a spell attack of +5, and my opponent has a reflex dc of 15, I need to roll a 10 or higher to succeed (55%) instead.

So to make the math the same, spell attacks would need to be reduced by 2. This however punishes the spell attacks that target AC, as they just get -2 for no reason

You could raise save dcs by 2, but then anything that rolled against them already (like athletics maneuvers) gets an effective -2

[worthy stump]

Good point, that is true

[young chasm]

we also have precedent of this in the game

https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=1676&NoRedirect=1

oh wait

holy shit

they changed black tentacles

[solar storm]

Yeah Slither (goated name change) actually works pretty differently now

[young chasm]

well i guess we DID have precedent of that but not anymore

im glad they changed it because it was such a weird outlier

[solar storm]

I think the most significant difference is changing how they interact with hero points and such

[young chasm]

yeah cause you cant hero point your attack anymore

[barren cipher]

you also can hero point saves

which i think is a lot more important on the player side

[turbid dagger]

clearly the solution is to make it so you can blow hero points on giving incoming attacks disadvantage

[barren cipher]

it also one-rolls chain lightning, which already obliterates encounters

at least it averages out a bit rather than "you rolled 19? fuck it, they're all dead"

[turbid dagger]

I assume you'd roll the attack each arc, and the chain would end if you ever crit failed
Again its literally just kind of rolling saves against spell dcs but backwards

But! I have another question not related to this- does Sorceror have any class-specific items like Warden's Signet (Ranger), Mask Of Uncanny Breath (Monk), and Instinct Crown (Barbarian)
Specifically wondering if they get a focus point item (like the first two there)

Oh wait I found it nvm

https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=2319

And its actually incredibly hype??

Lets you donate an action to your next turn for casting two spells in a row, so long as one is a bloodline spell
And has the usual 'free focus point' activation

So turn 1, cast a bloodline spell, apply the effect to yourself, then use your extra action for the 1/day activation
Turn 2, you are quickened, cast a bloodline spell, cast a normal spell
A little complex but I vibe

[warped orbit]

all the casters have a focus point item I believe

[turbid dagger]

Also, can Sorcerors benefit from Grimoires?
Like, if I got an Endless Grimoire would I get an extra 1st level spell use

[echo briar]

I wonder how this will be handled with the animist. Will they introduce a focus item in WotI? Will they just not have this option for years until a relevant book is released?

[warped orbit]

either is possible

a few of them only came in TV already

[thorny berry]

strictly raw it's "if you prepare spells you can [do XYZ]" though I feel like most gms would permit it if you had Arcane Evolution

[echo briar]

Also, there’s no rouge, fighter, gunslinger, inventor, swashbuckler, or thaumaturge specific items right?

Investigators out here with class specific coffee

[warped orbit]

it mentions in the Grimoire rules that if you prepare spells from a feat or something, it also works

[thorny berry]

yes but technically arcane evolution doesn't let you prepare spells, just swap spells in your repertoire

[turbid dagger]

There's a talisman that interacts with sneak attack

[warped orbit]

ah okay

[warped orbit]

the Iron [Shape] talismans also have extra effect if you already have the feats IIRC, which mostly means Fighters

[turbid dagger]

Oh there's also that intimidating strike talisman
Fear Gem?

[warped orbit]

yeah

[novel merlin]

There's a coffee consumable for investigators

It's really good

[limber comet]

Tomorrow...

Also it will probably be earlier than 8 pm est but like

I was on cold meds basically all day shhh

[clever cobalt]

Random idea:

Ulfen/Varangian Guard, but instead of vikings (or viking expies), it's Mana Wastes Fleshwarp Guards and Soldiers

I dunno why this idea is in my head but I vibe with it a lot for some reason

[thorny berry]

excited, I'm so curious how they end up implementing them

[clever cobalt]

Mana Waste Fleshwarp Clans being hired by some Inner Sea nation as Bodyguards and whatnot makes sense to me in the same sense the Varangian Guard was hired: No connection or care for local politics

Also same

[clever cobalt]

I guess the question is, who would hire them

[craggy thunder]

Cheliax

[clever cobalt]

[craggy thunder]

Or Andoran maybe

[clever cobalt]

Unfortunately you're probably correct

[craggy thunder]

lmao

[clever cobalt]

Andoran makes sense as well, though they're less aristocratic

[limber comet]

So like

Divine Mysteries is getting witch patrons

What do y'all think the themes will be

[heavy mesa]

I think Andoran would spring for it more than Cheliax. Chelish nobles have more immediate means to secure unquestioning loyalty from their bodyguards

[frank crystal]

I’m betting some like, divine background noise themes

Something older then the gods

A more primal and uncategorized form of divinity

[limber comet]

I mean I was thinking that it would be nascent divinites

Like Treerazer

[frank crystal]

I mean witch patrons are way more vague and esoteric now though

I don’t really think specific characters makes sense for current witch

[limber comet]

I didn't mean Treerazer specifically

I meant nascent divinity like Treerazer

[frank crystal]

Ohhhh

Yah I see what you mean

[limber comet]

It could theoretically be treerazer if your gm said that's cool but it's more vague in the actual text

[echo briar]

If curtain call's cover is any hint, something like "dealer of secrets" or "master of plots" seems plausible

or a remade pacts

[limber comet]

I mean maybe

[warped orbit]

playtest tomorrow
I am vibrating in anticipation

[echo briar]

I have a oneshot on Thursday. I have already preemptively chosen the commander

watch as all of its abilities explicitly say " as long as you are not named "the polish vampire"

[solar storm]

careful what you type

[limber comet]

Paizo is always listening

/pos

[frank crystal]

Dont we actually have some paizo employees in this server?

[novel merlin]

Its me, Jeff Paizo

[echo briar]

I think one of the mods (Winged?) did some work on Tian Xia

but she's a free lancer (I think), not a full time employee

[novel merlin]

Yeah Winged wrote for the new Tian Xia book but she's not a Paizo employee

[echo briar]

also huh, winged is the server owner. Did not know that

[novel merlin]

She's too powerful

Nobody could usurp her

[echo briar]

not that winged would do that, but the PF2 discord is having problems as the server owner is not a Paizo employee

but we do not need to go into that drama again

[solar storm]

DIRECT RULE FROM PILOT.NET
(because I have a red name I should make it explicit that this is a joke)

[limber comet]

Most likely. They're everywhere

[limber comet]

Shout out to that one reference to Uzumaki in Tian Xia

[heavy mesa]

Spiralspiralspiralspiral

[light gyro]

It's pilot.net, we're all lancers

[eager mountain]

https://fxtwitter.com/MichaelJSayre1/status/1784827119518064654

[light gyro]

oh shit

[eager mountain]

I know right

[limber comet]

OH SHIT

[true delta]

Love shit like that

The fun teamplay options

[clever cobalt]

Pog

[thorny berry]

Good lord

Now this is pod racing action economy

[light gyro]

it only comes online at 16th level but you could pair this with investigator's didactic strike to make the target flat-footed and add 2d6 precision damage to every strike.

[eager mountain]

OK

so a thing that kind sucks about

this feat

they havent mentioned blasts

and I had people telling me " blast dont count as strikes "

which ...as a kineticist player...makes me sad

[light gyro]

not rolled a kineticist before - do they get runes on their blasts?

ah, their thing is attenuators

[sinful gyro]

Would magic cantrips be allowed?

[solar storm]

Spells aren’t strikes either

It’s either just the strike action or actions which say “make a strike” I forget

[unborn rain]

Cantrips are pointed out as counting

[solar storm]

By whom?

[solar storm]

Oh wow I am sleepy

Kinetic Blasts really ought to be in that carve out RAI

[sinful gyro]

Yeah like, if cantrips are allowed, I'd allow a basic blast

[eager mountain]

yeah attenuators, thats about it

see if i was doing a gm , id just allow basic blasts

[sinful gyro]

So like, we just give everyone a gun right?

Anything with reload 1 will do

[unborn rain]

teach everyone a basic electric arc even maybe

I think cantrip is probably better for the hand economy

[clever cobalt]

Warlords back on the menu

[unborn rain]

and cheaper than the investment of getting a decent gun up to spec

[clever cobalt]

What are the chances this book will have Mass Warfare rules?

Given it seems to be a very martial-heavy book

Plus dome Mass Warfare rules already exist in Kingmaker 2e

[sinful gyro]

I'd imagine something about it would come up

Even if it's like "here's how to simulate a war with your characters inside it"

Rather than army rules

[eager mountain]

starfinder

play a commander in starfinder

LITERALLY EVERYONE has a gun

( or just play envoy which has some of the same things kinda )

[light gyro]

wonder how much they were thinking about sf cross-compatibility with these two new classes specifically. "commander" definitely sounds like it'd be thematically cohesive to both sf and pf

[eager mountain]

im not sure they were, but who knows

[carmine egret]

WE'RE SO FUCKING BACK

[echo briar]

So they seem to be banner based

Also, the subreddit drama seems to have been fixed

The offending mod has left

[sinful gyro]

The 2 big questions about Commander seems to be:
What resources do they have to spend to do their abilities
How is a "squadmate" defined

I predict it's something like "at the start of day, pick 4 people to be in your squad"

I think they haven't left yet but are leaving

[solar tendon]

I guess it might be something that scales with level

[sinful gyro]

Could be, it could create awkward situations thou

What if your party size is larger, can you include NPCs? etc

[solar tendon]

mm

[sinful gyro]

Personally, I think you make the starting size 4 people, then you can optionally scale it up as you level

4 covers the vast majority of parties, but you can level it up to include larger ones OR make NPCs part of your squad

[echo briar]

Squad mate is a background everyone must take to use your abilities

[sinful gyro]

But I'm literally just basing all this off of one feat so shrug

[sinful gyro]

Get that pf1e shit outta here

[echo briar]

No sorry, squadmate is a class everyone must take to use your abilities

[frank crystal]

Wait are squad mates just, your party?

[solar tendon]

idk if this is even a feat

fwiw

[echo briar]

We don’t know

[sinful gyro]

True, but ya know what I mean

[echo briar]

That’s what we’re talking about

[frank crystal]

Ohhhh

[sinful gyro]

Yeha like, Squadmate could just be short hand for "party" but maybe not?

[solar tendon]

I think it's just gonna be 6 people

[echo briar]

It could be a new type of minion

[solar tendon]

keyworded so the class only has to explain it once

[frank crystal]

I do hope it’s just your party

[solar tendon]

minions don't have reactions. usually

[frank crystal]

Yah could just be a keyword instead of allies so stuff like any NPC allies or party minions don’t get it

[solar tendon]

no I mean there's already a ton of precedent for 'pick 6 people during daily prep' as a way of defining the party

[frank crystal]

Oh

Yah I see what you mean

[sinful gyro]

It'd be cool if you could include NPCs is the main thing imo

[solar tendon]

I imagine you will be

just cause like, pf2e hasn't historically been super interested in something arbritrarily not working because someone isn't played by someone other than the gm

[frank crystal]

That’s fair yah

[echo briar]

They also mentioned a banner. It could be that everyone needs to carry one to be effected, or close enough to yours

[solar tendon]

commander's banner I imagine will be something that scales in radius

[frank crystal]

Yah that seems like an aura of some kinda

[solar tendon]

it's descending from pf1e's cavalier and samurai mechanics

[frank crystal]

Maybe a placable one

[sinful gyro]

Ye, seems like an aura thing

[frank crystal]

It would be neat to get like, an action to plant the banner

And the aura just stays there now

[sinful gyro]

It follows you but you can an option to plant it, that kinda thing

Ye

[solar tendon]

not a ttrpg ofc but in gw2 one of the warrior class's special ability categories is a bunch of banners that they can pull out and attack with and then plant for the effect to continue independently for a duration

oh wait apparently the carrying aspect was removed from the game in 2019 haha

[sinful gyro]

Banner starts off as a aura that follows you, or you can plant, but at level 5 you get a feat that lets you use it as a thrown melee weapon. If you throw it, it plants in the spot the enemy was, an immobilizes them

[frank crystal]

That would be rad

I love banner spears

[fossil temple]

Darkest Dungeon 2 Crusader build real

[echo briar]

According to Reddit, the playtest will drop in 2 hours

[sinful gyro]

Ye

That was me

I got it from the discord

And they probably got it from Paizo

[echo briar]

And now I’ll put it into telegram, and they’ll put it into smoke signals

[clever cobalt]

40 minutes

[echo briar]

36 minutes

[light gyro]

oh my god they're killing gorum a second time??

[echo briar]

Their killing his son, Goson

[sinful gyro]

*gowalk

Gocrawl will be fine though, they aren't that messed up

Actually should of called them Gosoda and Gomilk

[unborn rain]

*Gobananadauiri

[echo briar]

What about his other son, GoGoGadget

[sinful gyro]

He's busy playing minecraft

[limber comet]

13 minutes

[frank crystal]

8 minutes

[unborn rain]

1 minute? assuming by message times

well now I look the fool

[clever cobalt]

It's time

[sinful gyro]

John Paizo lied to us 😦

Nah it'll probably be soon

[echo briar]

negative one minutes!

[light gyro]

the prophecy... failed???

[frank crystal]

Divination is never certain

[fossil temple]

wait so ...interact to reload as a free action
https://2e.aonprd.com/Weapons.aspx?ID=174
Instant reaload?! 😺

[clever cobalt]

I blame Pharasma

[frank crystal]

The war of immortals is affecting her a lot

[solar tendon]

it's just just one interact action as a free action

reloading a backpack weapon requires ten interact actions

[carmine egret]

Oh that makes sense

[fossil temple]

Ah, so it only counts to reload 0 and reload 1

[solar tendon]

or like 30 maybe?

[clever cobalt]

It takes a minute

So basically 10 rounds

[solar tendon]

no it works on reload 2+ you just don't get to shoot them unless you'd already started reloading

[fossil temple]

but it says 'and then' not 'or'

as i understand, with 2 actions
allies can switch to ranged, reload then fire

[echo briar]

wait, what if Paizo uses the European date format? and the playtest releases on the 4th of 29uary?

[fossil temple]

[sinful gyro]

https://paizo.com/pathfinderplaytest

[solar tendon]

so if you have a reload 2 weapon and you spent one action reloading on your own turn

this would let you finish the reload and then attack with it

[frank crystal]

Can we get this pinned?

[fossil temple]

So basically that grants our allies 3 actions, but they can only use to switch to ranged, reload and attack immediatly?

[solar tendon]

(or actually technically I think you can reload a weapon and then shoot a different weapon if you want/need)

[frank crystal]

Oh it is intelligence based

[barren cipher]

you can plant your banner after all

[sinful gyro]

Nice

[frank crystal]

Oh sick

[fossil temple]

Be smart
Shout smart

[limber comet]

No new iconics

Sadge

[frank crystal]

Also huh

Your banner isn’t just a nebulous pole on your back

It’s gotta be attached to a weapon or shield you have

[sinful gyro]

banner can be affixed to a weapon or shield you are
wielding, or held in one hand and attached to a simple
pole.``` spear banner confirmed

Just glue it to your spear

Seems like, by default, if you aren't holding it you lose a lot of benefits thou

[frank crystal]

Also wait that means to plant the banner you have to give up whatever it’s attached to it seems

So you either like, have it attached to a weapon or shield and use all your hands

Or have it be attached to its own pole and give up a hand for easier placements

I think

[sinful gyro]

instruct a total number of allies equal to 2 plus your
Intelligence modifier, enabling these allies to respond
to your tactics in combat; these allies are referred to as
your squadmates. ```

[frank crystal]

So that’s what squad mates are

[sinful gyro]

So 2+ int mod, so given you want int at 4, it's gonna be default 6

[clever cobalt]

Commander has Legendary Class DC

[fossil temple]

Int Fighter is on

[frank crystal]

Oh shit

[sinful gyro]

You can change tactics during a 10 min downtime, good stuff

[echo briar]

auto scaling warfare lore, nice

[sinful gyro]

one ally of your choice benefiting from that tactic an
extra reaction. This reaction has to be used for that
tactic, and is lost if not used. ```


```FORM UP! [one-action]
COMMANDER TACTIC
You signal your team to move into position together. Signal all
squadmates affected by your commander’s banner; each can
immediately Stride as a reaction, though each must end their
movement inside your banner’s aura.```

So does that mean one ally could stride twice?

[solar tendon]

I think you can only react once per opportunity

[barren cipher]

yeah it just doesn't cost you your reaction

[sinful gyro]

I'm confused what the benefit is then

[barren cipher]

or if you've already used it you can have another go

[sinful gyro]

Oh so like, say I grant it to my fellow Champion, they could still have a reaction to shield block?

[barren cipher]

yeah

[frank crystal]

How big is the banner’s aura?

[sinful gyro]

that's good

Otherwise this thing just kills other reaction classes

[barren cipher]

you can get another one at 10th from a feat

[frank crystal]

Also oh shit that’s super good

Just free reactions for everyone

[barren cipher]

yeah, if you have a lot of classes with not so good reactions (casters) and 1-2 with good reactions you get the most value

[sinful gyro]

COMMANDER TACTIC
Your team works together to set an enemy up for a vicious attack.
Signal one squadmate affected by your commander’s banner
who has an opponent within their reach. That ally can Shove
or Reposition an opponent as a free action. If their maneuver is
successful and the target ends their movement adjacent to you or
a different squadmate, you or the second squadmate can attempt
a melee Strike against that target as a reaction.


END IT! [two-actions]
BANNER COMMANDER INCAPACITATION TACTIC
Requirements You and your allies currently outnumber enemies
on the battlefield and you or a squadmate have reduced an
enemy to 0 Hit Points since the start of your last turn.
At your proclamation that victory is already at hand, your
allies march forward with an authoritative stomp, scattering
your enemies in terror. Signal all squadmates affected by
your commander’s banner; you and each ally can Step directly
toward a hostile creature they are observing as a free action.
Any hostile creatures within 10 feet of you or a squadmate
after this movement must attempt a Will save against your
class DC; on a failure they become fleeing for 1 round and on a
critical failure they become fleeing for 1 round and frightened
2. This is an emotion, fear, and mental effect.```

This is sweet

Imagine running this in a squad with a grappler fighter or barb or something

[barren cipher]

urgh they've fallen into the trap of making class animal companions worse than beastmaster/cavalier

why are you doing this paizo

[clever cobalt]

Oh my god the Defender is basically the knave from ICON

[sinful gyro]

COMMANDER TACTIC
Your drill instruction kicks in and your allies rapidly reload
their weapons to prepare for the next volley. Signal all
squadmates affected by your commander’s banner; each can
immediately Interact to reload as a reaction.
Special When leading a siege weapon crew (Guns & Gears 72),
you can use this tactic to command your squadmates to
Load a siege weapon instead.```

[frank crystal]

Also wait THE OTHER NEW CLASS IS HERE?

[sinful gyro]

GOOD. I loved playing the Knave

[barren cipher]

they have even gone for the much worse version where you don't get independent until 10th

[frank crystal]

I DIDNT EVEN NOTICE GUARDIAN

[sinful gyro]

Yeah, there's Guardian to

Everyone was commander hyped but guardian should be cool to

[light gyro]

sure its incap but thats rad

[barren cipher]

i'm sort of wondering how useful intelligence actually is on this

[frank crystal]

You get more squad mates

[sinful gyro]

It's mainly to buff your warfare and class DC I imagine

[frank crystal]

So more actions for everyone

[sinful gyro]

And to make sure you can make a full squad yeah

[light gyro]

a couple of the tictacs let you sub warfare in for climbing/swimming as nice bonus

[frank crystal]

Assuming a party of 4, a +2 seems reasonable

[sinful gyro]

A lot of them seem to care about class DC

[light gyro]

you cap out at legendary class dc too

[clever cobalt]

Guardian gets Legendary Armor at level 15

[sinful gyro]

Your knowledge of war and strategy grows and guides
your decisions in battle. You gain expert proficiency
in Warfare Lore. You can use Warfare Lore to Recall
Knowledge about most creatures regardless of type,
but typically only to determine whether they can be
reasoned with, their most notable offensive abilities, and
whether one of their saving throws is particularly weak.
The GM can decide to allow additional questions to be
answered when Recalling Knowledge with Warfare Lore
as appropriate to the situation. In addition, as long as
you are observing at least one opponent when initiative is
rolled, you can use Warfare Lore for your initiative roll.```

[frank crystal]

Also admittedly, I haven’t really read it yet, but is guardian the armor focused martial to fighter’s weapon focused martial?

[clever cobalt]

And Mighty Bulwark is a Level 8 feat

[sinful gyro]

Warefare lore for Iniative, fuckin nice

[echo briar]

also int based medicine

[barren cipher]

i feel like you need a lot of stats so being able to go down to 16 or maybe even 14 seems like it would be helpful

[frank crystal]

Oh shit

Guardian just

[clever cobalt]

Guardian also has Boundless Reprisals at level 20

[frank crystal]

Has a taunt

[clever cobalt]

Yep

It's the Knave

[sinful gyro]

I think you could 16 int

But I'd try for 18 and dump something

Knave was so much fun you have no idea

[crystal walrus]

If i had any time i'd be windmill slam running a 2e game now

[light gyro]

you can dump charisma babey!!!!

[warped orbit]

that's pretty strong
and means they can very easily dump Dex

[frank crystal]

It is neat to having another more defensive based martial besides champion

[solar tendon]

ooh guardian is the armour spec class

[clever cobalt]

Yep

[limber comet]

I feel like commander is the star of the show here but guardian is neat too