Pathfinder

[turbid dagger]

If an attack would proc multiple weaknesses, it takes the highest right
Like, say, a spirit barbarians slashing attack, dealing positive and slashing to a zombie, with weakness slashing 5 and positive 5

[clever cobalt]

Can't you proc both?

[solar tendon]

uh

it depends

so in the case of barbarian its slashing damage from the weapon and positive from rage damage

both of those are increased because they seperately proc the weaknesses

but if you have a monster that for example was weak to adamantine and bludgeoning, an adamantine bludgeoning weapon would only proc the highest

and likewise positive energy resistance can't reduce the barbarian's damage by more than they gain from their rage

[turbid dagger]

So spirit barbarians turn zombies into mulch basically

[solar tendon]

yup!

[thorny berry]

and on that note, a thaumaturge that's already using a silver weapon or w/e can still benefit from personal weakness

[turbid dagger]

Oh that's clever

[solar thorn]

Im seething so hard, my thamaturge had a silver hatchet in their inventory at one point against a lycanthrope and didn't think about it for a second

[warped orbit]

the way I would sum it up, is that each type of damage in your Strike can only trigger one weakness

[surreal basin]

Alright so I have a boss coming up who is a master paaridar

He has traits and moves from a bunch of different animals and monsters, and his masterpiece is an astradaemon he’s gonna have his daughter eat the chakra of

But if she doesn’t, then he does it - and he has a really powerful attack that deals drained and doomed on hit, as well as the ability to instakill someone if they stay grabbed by him a whole round, just like an astradaemon

I want to have some kind of balancing factor, representing how fucked up his ki and chakra’s are, and how he’s gone too far

[turbid dagger]

He has a weakness and is susceptible too positive, negative, AND spirit, because any kind of disruption to his soul causes the metaphysical house of cards to wobble, and each one has a weird little extra effect?
Not sure how accessible that is to your party tho

[surreal basin]

Positive and Spirit are both very accessible

That’s a good idea yeah

[turbid dagger]

Like maybe positive Quickens him for a round but gives a really hefty Clumsy value for the same duration

As his body goes out of control

[surreal basin]

Mmmm maybe yeah

I really like that yeah

[turbid dagger]

You may need an RKer to have them think to do that tho, not sure how good your party is at that either

[frank crystal]

Hmm, do thaumaturges benefit from vulnerabilities granted by runes like ghost touch?

[solar tendon]

ghost touch actually usually (perhaps even always) bypasses a resistance rather than doing extra damage

thaumaturge can still exploit that but it requires the level 4 feat breached defences

[frank crystal]

Ahhh ok

[solar tendon]

which allows you to instead of using mortal weakness or personal antithesis, bypass the target's highest resistance

if a monster did have a vulnerability to a rune like ghost touch though you could cause mortal weakness to proc it yes

[frank crystal]

Do you still get the extra base ranger from personal antithesis using that?

[solar tendon]

nope

you have to choose one of the three options

personal antithesis is meant to be like the fallback option for something that either doesn't have a weakness or it's a smaller weakness than personal antithesis

[frank crystal]

Ah, so either exploit weakness if they have one, bypass resistance if they have one, or personal antithesis if they have neither

[solar tendon]

like at level 8 your personal antithesis damage is 6 while a lot of early monsters will only have a weakness of 5

[frank crystal]

Assuming you take the feat anyway

[solar tendon]

yup

[frank crystal]

Ok sick

[rapid wagon]

is the ranger in 2e considered something of a hybrid class?

[frank crystal]

Nope

They have access to some focus spells with feats but they’re almost entirely martial

The hybrid classes are summoner and magus

[solar tendon]

ranger is the fuck this guy in particular class

[frank crystal]

Known for just

[rapid wagon]

oh hmm

[frank crystal]

Ignoring the multiple attack penalty system

[rapid wagon]

ranger seems cool

[solar tendon]

which thaumaturge is another spin on

[frank crystal]

At least if you choose Flurry

[unborn rain]

I'd say presicion also applies for ignoring the multiple attack penalty system

[frank crystal]

I mean it ignores it by just not attacking a lot

[unborn rain]

more than one attack who needs it

[frank crystal]

Flurry ignores it by just, not caring about the penalties

[warped orbit]

Precision can still attack twice pretty easily with Hunted Shot
Though you can also just Hunter's Aim

[solar tendon]

oh yeah twin takedown and hunter's aim make it share attack a lot identity with monk

[rapid wagon]

ah it all comes back to monk lol

me and my monk love

[solar tendon]

which also kinda gives it similar third action options to monk

[warped orbit]

Hunted Shot and Twin Takedown kinda refund you the cost for Hunt Prey

Unless your target survives longer

[rapid wagon]

so ranger is kinda like a ranged or melee martial all about picking a guy and fuckin them up

[warped orbit]

Pretty much

[rapid wagon]

similar to pf1e's smite and challenge?

[warped orbit]

In away yeah

Your main feature only works against your Prey, so you usually wanna mark what you're attacking

Though there are some feats to make that easier later too, letting you mark multiple at once

[solar tendon]

you can mark precombat too

which I think a lot of people don't realise

[warped orbit]

Oh yeah if you Track something

[rapid wagon]

can you re-mark at any time or only after your marked target is dead and gone

[warped orbit]

Any time

It's just an action

Well "just"
It does still eat into their action econ for larger fights

[rapid wagon]

i need to go back and dig into action econ for 2e

and also look at all the actions you just get all the time or associated with skills

[turbid dagger]

Yeah I very specifically left tracks around the first dungeon I did, and pointed them out to my ranger in a wink nudge kind of way
And he was like 'oh neat, anyway'

[solar tendon]

lmao

[turbid dagger]

The Thylacines........

[clever cobalt]

Any good dual classes with Kineticist?

Aside from Barbarian

[light gyro]

champ for survivability maybe

[turbid dagger]

Ranger is one of the few martials that interact with kineticist stuff
As their Hunter's Edges specify attacks and hits, not Strikes
So you can proc it with Blasts

And they also get tons of support stuff that can coexist with Kineticist, like their Monster Hunter chain and Share Prey

[rapid wagon]

man, I suffer for flavor

my carrion crown paladin is using the variant bond for archon bond right

which as far as i can tell is really not very good

but it fits with his association with iomedae

and also has sick aesthetic flavor

finally using it for the first time

in a big showdown with a boss

and i expect it to mostly not do anything

except make me look cool

[thorny berry]

swash has various 'make this skill better' feats that could synergize with skill junctions, though that'd be a pretty funky build that might take some finagling

[clever cobalt]

Huh, could be fun.

What element though (if mono-element)

[turbid dagger]

Any, really
Earth is the most likely to have high damage blasts they want to use over impulses

As they do full str thanks to armor in earth

[clever cobalt]

Fair fair

Fire is also a bit tempting admittedly, cause Fire has some good junctions and impulses

[turbid dagger]

You could also do an element with impulse attacks, like Metal

[clever cobalt]

Damn I'm now thinking of other cool dual classes

We're just entering the kingdom building phase in our Kingmaker Dual Class campaign

Just killed the ||Stag Lord||

Do you think a Champion-Thaum is good?

Or would a Fighter-Thaum be better

[sinful gyro]

Make sure you read the kingdom stuff carefully

We got details wrong the first few turns

[barren cipher]

fighter-thaum is just silly

[clever cobalt]

I can imagine

[barren cipher]

i don't think you'd benefit as much from champ as fighter, thaum has a lot going on

[clever cobalt]

Fighter-Monk is also silly

Also new Kobold lore

[limber comet]

That's infinitely more fun

Imho anyways

[solar tendon]

I like it yeah

lean into the pf2e/golarion stuff

magic types are neat

[limber comet]

The magic traditions are super cool and I like seeing stuff incorporate them

[thorny berry]

Reminds me that I kinda wish they'd given spells essence tags when they nuked spell schools

I liked the 'one spell school only' caster archetypes, it seemed like a fun way to use the system to give alternate but still future-proof weird caster variants

[warped orbit]

yeah I wonder how Captivator is gonna work now in the Remaster

[thorny berry]

I was excited to see them complete the cycle with other schools

and I'd actually been working on a homebrew evocation-only class lol

alas

like there are still some tags you can use but they're so much narrower and so much more inconsistently applied

[barren cipher]

i assume you'd just have an individual spell list for stuff like that

[solar tendon]

it's kinda annoying cause spell schools were like one of the few actually future proofed mechanics in the game

[warped orbit]

yeah having to resort to specific lists is really bad for futureproofing

[barren cipher]

i can see how it's an attractive option for the designers

purge legacy content and avoid future arguments about school assignment at the stroke of a pen

[thorny berry]

yeah, exactly

[echo briar]

Pharasma is confirmed not dying, at least for now https://paizo.com/community/blog/v5748dyo6sii0?The-Godsrain-Prophecies-Part-One#discuss

[frank crystal]

She’s the god of death right?

[unborn rain]

The only reason Pharasma isnt dying is because she isnt in the same room as me

[unborn rain]

Yeah she's in charge of the boneyard which is where you go when you die to be judged for your proper afterlife

[frank crystal]

Ah ok

[echo briar]

The universe also collapses without her

Its a slow collapse, but as shown in this false prophecy, it is a collapse

[unborn rain]

I mean, the prophecy is wrong

both about her dying and the consiquences as is said in that article

[warped orbit]

Pharasma is important to maintain the River of Souls

[warped orbit]

if souls don't get sorted, it's pretty bad for everyone

[unborn rain]

Good thing she's been training an entire collection of beings to take over her job for most if not all of time

[echo briar]

well, if a prophecy says "when you unplug this lamp, it turns off" and the prophecy is wrong, that does not mean the lamp doesn't need electricity.

It might not happen exactly as shown, but its still not good

[solar tendon]

yeah but you also can't then use the prophecy as proof

[turbid dagger]

I'm going to assume one of these turns out to be right though
Given the context

[unborn rain]

It's more like "When you unplug this lamp, all light in existence will cease to be", which is cearly false

Obiously Pharasmas death is bad but it's not gonna end the universe

[turbid dagger]

Anyway this is.... a lot less than I was hoping for 😅
I admit I was hoping for like
Details about war of the immortals, rather than a short story
But I will continue waiting patiently

[echo briar]

I'm more assuming "they in universe know that if pharasma dies her followers will lose power, and that is just shown to us, the audience, that this is how it works"

[solar tendon]

just like how you know the lamp needs electricity because of other observations

[echo briar]

exactly

[limber comet]

Pharasma is safe and nobody is surprised

[unborn rain]

You gotta start out obvious, get the boring ones out of the way

[warped orbit]

it was a possibility, but fairly unlikely

[solar tendon]

I could be less surprised

pharasma would at least be interesting to kill

[limber comet]

It would literally end the game world

That's it, Golarion is no more

[unborn rain]

No it wouldnt, the psychopomps would take over

[solar tendon]

like I said, interesting

[unborn rain]

She literally has a Psychopomp she's training as her successor

[silver geyser]

Wellll, here's the big problem

[sinful gyro]

Told you it was a verse bingo card. Whoever is left is safe

[solar tendon]

I think godsrain is gonna be The Event name

[sinful gyro]

I wonder if they planned to mark her safe first in advance or not

Cos she was a big speculation

[solar tendon]

cause god juice is gonna rain down on creation

this we know

[unborn rain]

We know that there will be a Gods Rain

[solar tendon]

gods? Heh, yeah, they're gonna rain

[silver geyser]

Beyond domains going wild when their deity dies (see Aroden and the former god of animals), Pharasma is what keeps daemons, devils, and demons in check. In fact, she actively reduces how many souls go to Daemontown.

[sinful gyro]

She also made this whole place

[solar tendon]

I think today's prophecy is a pretty accurate picture of what would happen without like, anyone in that space. it's as much a prophecy of the psychopomps giving up as it is pharasma herself's death

but it's not a single event thing. people can do shit abt it

and most likely would

[silver geyser]

Yep. The "prophecy" is flawed from go.

[solar tendon]

rovagug's prophecy will be interesting

[sinful gyro]

"Everyone dies"

[limber comet]

Rovagug's prophecy is "wakey wakey time fo skool"

[solar tendon]

if rovagug dies everyone dies?

[echo briar]

Turns out to be a birthday present

[sinful gyro]

If they die, to me it implies they escaped and were killed

But in doing so, that'd kill everyone

[solar tendon]

fair

[unborn rain]

Rovagug leading to World War God is one of the more intersting things which could happen imo

[turbid dagger]

If Rovagug dies everyone would drink themselves to death in one big party

[silver geyser]

Good reason tbh

[barren cipher]

i'm still on the rovagug train

[rustic cape]

Exactly! With Rovagug around the gods have a reason to collaborate. In his absence ... XD

[unborn rain]

That's a bad train, would probably try to eat you.

[barren cipher]

you can do him in without breaking the universe, which is always helpful from a narrative standpoint

[echo briar]

Honestly, Abadar seems like the perfect combination of "changes the world completely" and "surprising"

[turbid dagger]

I'm still hoping for Asmodeus
Hell War Hell War

[echo briar]

and has the added benefit of changeing the world in a way that every AP can deal with

[turbid dagger]

Imagine the raw Treachery that would occur

[sinful gyro]

Sanerae, death by Orc

[echo briar]

every adventure goes into a city at some point

[warped orbit]

capitalism gone forever

[rustic cape]

My top 3 were Pharasma, Rovagug, and Nethys (in no particular order)

I still think Nethys would be fun

[turbid dagger]

I'm not sure if Abadar dying would make cities melt

[echo briar]

No, but they would definitely change

[solar storm]

My gut feeling is Torag

[barren cipher]

yeah i am not really sure that killing gods obliterates their portfolio

[rustic cape]

stops time just before the killing blow "Hee hee hoo death? Oh I've never died before! Hee hee hoo I wonder what it's like!" starts time again

[solar storm]

Abadar's death does mean that magically enabled commerce isn't taxed though

[solar tendon]

abadar dying could be a like

[turbid dagger]

All coins in the world suddenly shift in value
The coppers in your couch cushions are now platinum
The stuff in that vault? It is made of wood now,

[rustic cape]

That sounds more like War of Mortals material tho

[solar tendon]

economic upheaval cause there's no weird fantasy economy stasis anymore

[echo briar]

On the other hand, Gorum would be ironic

The god of war dying in a war?

[solar tendon]

what is war but death

[warped orbit]

not entirely destroy, but it does damage them in a way

[silver geyser]

Prophecy can still happen, for example

It's just completely unreliable

[warped orbit]

there is some effect on the world at least

[silver geyser]

Yup

[ember bay]

Can it? Thought Aroden's death more or less removed the power of prochecy.

[solar tendon]

you can still predict the future it just won't necessarily come true

[silver geyser]

There's a lot of spells for just this

[solar tendon]

as opposed to you can no longer predict the future all the previous methods now just return static

[surreal basin]

Yeah, divination magic still works

Before aroden, you could deadass like

Tell the future

Full stop

[silver geyser]

You can't do long term stuff

[surreal basin]

You could cast a spell and know what was gonna happen next year without a shadow of a doubt, unchangeably

[turbid dagger]

Yea there are a lot of prophetic spells but they all come with like 'dc 5 secret flat check or it tells lies'

[surreal basin]

Now you get back what might happen, maybe

And all prophecy can be changed by mortal action

[clever cobalt]

Did they announce who died

[warped orbit]

not yet

it seems they will regularly announce who doesn't die

[surreal basin]

No they won’t be for a while

[turbid dagger]

They announced that Pharasma was safe

And it seems like they'll be doing drops like that for a while

[clever cobalt]

Wasn't someone betting on Pharasma

[solar tendon]

maybe even 20 weeks

[surreal basin]

Tbh I get some people being disappointed

But also

Like

[turbid dagger]

Narrowing the dead god out by process of elimination rather than pointing them out from the lineup

[clever cobalt]

Makes sense

[surreal basin]

They wouldn’t give us the bingo card to just

Instantly go “and that’s that”

[turbid dagger]

Admittedly I missed it was a bingo card on first glance (that is, yesterday night lmao)
I thought it was just like
A lineup

[surreal basin]

Yeah that’s cause it isn’t really a functional one

But they called it that

[clever cobalt]

Oh they also detailed what would happen if it were Pharasma who died

Neat

[limber comet]

Groteus is like :3

[fossil temple]

What is the TL;DR?

Because I actually like her and love the lore around the Boneyard

[clever cobalt]

Nothing good

(For Golarion)

[turbid dagger]

As presented in the prophecy, the Psychopomps are overwhelmed by their loss of leadership, souls start winding up in the wrong places en masse, undead raves everywhere because ding dong the witch is dead, heavens trying to export the sudden influx of torturers and genocidal maniacs back to hell in exchange for the innocent orphans and saints they've wound up with, daemons are eating good because the river of souls is total chaos
People's perception of life and death fundamentally change and people are a lot more afraid of death because who the hell knows whats gonna happen to them in there

The psychopomp author doubts that the psychopomps would actually lose control of the situation that badly though

[clever cobalt]

Also Urgothoa is happy

[turbid dagger]

At one point Urgathoa is described as being so happy that empty cups the world over spontaneously fill with wine mixed with blood, yes

[fossil temple]

The people are #maleghast-general would love that

thank you for the summary!

[clever cobalt]

I'm wondering what would happen if Rovogug died

Seems like a "and there was much celebration" thing though

Like almost universally

[surreal basin]

yeah but then the divine cold war would end

[clever cobalt]

Yeah

And thus the War of Immortals begins

I feel like Saranrae is gonna be one of the last to be marked as "safe"

[surreal basin]

I'm glad we're gonna see the "consequences" of all the deaths

[clever cobalt]

If only to keep that suspense going

[warped orbit]

I'm still banking on Zon Kuthon being the one that dies personally

[surreal basin]

tbh I think the devs are like

genuinely kinda bullshitting about starfinder's canon not mattering

[turbid dagger]

Yeah I feel this myself

[surreal basin]

like, there's no way starfinder 2e is gonna be incompatible with pathfinder 2e as a setting

[turbid dagger]

Like they're not gonna kill iomedae or some shit and have her be alive in SF

[surreal basin]

that's just not gonna happen

[turbid dagger]

Gorum dying: The world is at peace 😌
(Realistically I feel it'll be like)
(There's no war but also the mortal races have no way to defend themselves from The Horrors)

[surreal basin]

I refuse to believe that Zon-Shelyn was meaningless

[ember bay]

Killing Iomedae would be weird. Like Aranzi is supposed to be replacing whoever kicks the bucket right?

[surreal basin]

not replacing

she isn't taking up their domains or responsibilkites

[ember bay]

I mean in like the main 20 yeah, not their job.

[clever cobalt]

What horrors?

[turbid dagger]

Well, I do think that the Zon-Shelyn thing may not necessarily be the result of either dying
Maybe they do a fusion ha

[warped orbit]

I am so ready for the Shelyn goth/emo arc

[surreal basin]

they've also said the prismatic ray is changing and

I just don't see paizo killing any of them tbh

[thorny berry]

the cycle of souls thing is my least favorite part of the setting and if that's staying I've kinda lost all interest in who dies lol

[turbid dagger]

Oh I just meant generally like
Dragons, trolls, aboleths, wraiths, a particularly hungry tiger
All the fucked up shit that aren't necessarily tied up in the concept of 'war' and don't use 'weapons'

[thorny berry]

especially if they're seriously going to like

drip feed it one denial at a time

[surreal basin]

well

both of those things are still here

[solar tendon]

the spells prismatic ray are a pun on are gone in the remaster which I think is relevant to it 'changing' haha

[surreal basin]

so

¯_(ツ)_/¯

oh yeah trye

i could also see the cule growing lmao

[turbid dagger]

See ya when War Of The Immortals drops I suppose
I admit this slow feed wouldn't be my first choice either but I don't mind it

[thorny berry]

I mean I'll be pretty excited if they tease anything about how they're gonna do the mythic system

[surreal basin]

I'm fine with it

they defintiely will

llike

preview the book

[solar tendon]

if they all have like some exploration of what their death could mean I think that's interesting content in and of itself

[thorny berry]

though if it didn't warrant a full class-style playtest then it's probably just Archetypes, But Spicier

[surreal basin]

maybe not as part of this book

[clever cobalt]

I'm sure we'll learn more about it as we approach release

[surreal basin]

but like

[fossil temple]

Now to try to moraly justify necromancy and raising the undead! 😄

[surreal basin]

they're gonna preview it like a normal book in addition to this stuff

like they're gonna show off stuff

[turbid dagger]

Yeah I feel like mythic stuff is realistically gonna be 'free archetype with this spread of Rare archetypes we are releasing in war of the immortals that have really strong effects'

[clever cobalt]

Lharasma died and people are getting flung all over the place. Not to mention 'normal' resurrection is fucked

[thorny berry]

which is fine, really, though I suppose if there was ever a spot to bring back 1e-style jank mythic would be it.

[surreal basin]

I agree

My personal thing is gonna be letting people free-free archetype

[fossil temple]

True, is a free for all
Now, to try to justify in the universe Pharasma is still alive

[surreal basin]

normal free archetype + earning myhtic archetype feats over the course of the story as bonus feats

[turbid dagger]

28 class feats on one char

[thorny berry]

now make them a kineticist

[limber comet]

WHEW

[clever cobalt]

Oh hey

They're also writing a new book about the Death of the God

Like

A story

Not a source book

[thorny berry]

huh

[limber comet]

Yeah

[sinful gyro]

They did a few of those for pf1e

[limber comet]

It's getting a rulebook, an AP, and a novel

[turbid dagger]

I wonder if that means it'll be more concrete than Aroden's
Like instead of 'one day the MF disappeared' its like
'And so Sarenrae got domed by Asmodeus' spear, and everyone lost their shit'

[clever cobalt]

I mean

Gods dying is no small thing

The last time a core God died the world got fucked up in several ways

[limber comet]

And I guess the new Lost Omens book as well

[clever cobalt]

And set off a new era of history

So another God dying is like

[solar tendon]

tbf it was set to be a new era anyway

[limber comet]

Mysteries of the Divine

[clever cobalt]

A huge deal

[clever cobalt]

True, but it all went to shit

[solar tendon]

they were just wrong about what the new era would be like

[clever cobalt]

Because prophecy literally died

[limber comet]

Imagine being on an adventure and just seeing the sun just. Wink out

[clever cobalt]

I wonder if the Dark Tapestry is gonna be relevant at all

Or the Ashen Man

[limber comet]

Like this

[clever cobalt]

Given the Ashen Man has been built up for a while

And the Ashen Man directly works for Nyarlathotep

[ember bay]

New Golden Era of Humanity
Aroden: "Would be a dick move if I were to just suddenly cease to be"

[clever cobalt]

Part of me thinks a golden era of humanity would suck for all non-humans

[warped orbit]

Aroden fucks up everything, even when he dies

[ember bay]

Probably would

[clever cobalt]

Especially with Aroden at the helm

[solar tendon]

a lot of humans aren't too upset the empires didn't resurge too

[ember bay]

Aroden wasn't exactly the greatest guy if I remember right.

[clever cobalt]

Yeah

[solar tendon]

more like golden age of imperial assholes who fetishise humanity

[clever cobalt]

Aroden didn't have the best track record

Anthrochauvinists

[limber comet]

Not again,,

[rapid wagon]

aroden was uh, well liked in specific places yeah?

[clever cobalt]

Taldor, Cheliax, Absalom

All places with Imperialistic attitiudes

[rapid wagon]

Actually, where did aroden sit as far as like... hierarchy. He wasn't a chief god in the pantheon was he? I figured saerenrae has always been on of the paramount good aligned gods. Was Aroden heavy on the law side?

[clever cobalt]

He was one of the Core Gods

I think Iomadae replaced him

[ember bay]

She was his Herald and all his duties kind of got thrown on her.

[clever cobalt]

Also Aroden was Lawful Neutral

[sinful gyro]

pain

[turbid dagger]

I feel your pain

[limber comet]

What if Cayden dies and all booze spoils

Everyone is just :[

[rapid wagon]

is this still accurate?

[sinful gyro]

Seems good to me

[turbid dagger]

I think my Lizardfolk might have just crit failed an RK on whether Ochre Jellies are edible
He was told that if you boil the slime it'll stop being acidic and become a minty fluid you can use for teas
While our goblin insists drinking Ochre Slime fluid will kill you regardless of whether you boil it
(My lizardfolk is still taking a gourd full)

[rapid wagon]

My paladin being devoted to iomedae and being raised in a temple in absolom would give him a rosey view of Aroden I imagine

[ember bay]

Mostly likely yeah.

If I remember right he's the one who founded Absolom.

[limber comet]

I wonder what Arazni will be the god of

Hm

[sinful gyro]

They already have a domain iirc

[turbid dagger]

She already has domains and a deity list, she's just being moved to core

https://2e.aonprd.com/Deities.aspx?ID=31

Areas of Concern: the abused, dignity, unwilling undeath

[warped orbit]

yes
he created the Isle of Kortos as basically a pet project

just raised the whole thing out of the sea and terraformed it

Extinction Curse also goes into that

it was also to raise up the Starstone admittedly, but still

[turbid dagger]

The raising out of the sea was to get at the Starstone iirc but the terraforming was just something he did yeah

[sinful gyro]

And did a bit of imperalism

[turbid dagger]

Going too in depth on that is Spoilers, tho

[limber comet]

Aroden did good and did bad

Very interesting fellow

[ember bay]

Chases Deskari out of Sarkoris and the Sarkorans are just " Whatever dude, was just some big bug."

[turbid dagger]

Deskari: "Bet?"

[limber comet]

He also helped Arcadia...and then botched it

[light gyro]

funny combo; alchemist fire splash from the alchemist, ally in splash zone uses eat fire

[clever cobalt]

What did he do there?

[limber comet]

I don't remember exactly

[eager mountain]

Nice

[limber comet]

Make Sundowner your next Starfinder villain

[eager mountain]

me to my gm

about my level 18 exemplar

[trim grotto]

god it is so confusing to know what i should be building in starfinder

[eager mountain]

1e im assumming

[trim grotto]

yeah

trying to make a fun power armor build

[eager mountain]

what are you playing in there?

ah yeah that can be confusing

[trim grotto]

trying to decide between soldier and mechanic

[eager mountain]

mechanic can get armor

speciall mechanic armor

like iron man lol

https://www.aonsrd.com/AltClassFeatures.aspx?ID=6

[trim grotto]

yeah i saw that which is why im considering the class. But i'm trying to figure out whether to go ranged or melee

and whether the feat investment needed to give mechanic heavy weapons is worth it

[echo briar]

So, next week, when the next safe god is reviled, is valentines day. So if Calistria is safe, that seems like a good time to reveal it

also the march 20th is the equinox, but that seems less relevant to any of the core 20

Also, there will only be 9 more blog posts before they reveal the dying god in a livestream

[thorny berry]

that's a relief, at least

[eager mountain]

my cave elf has seen cows for the first time at a farmers market

having met horses before that, we has decided that all cows are just Horse Cambions.

cambions are tieflings if anyones wondering )

[craggy thunder]

You know who I think it would be hilarious for them to be the god to die?

Irori

[clever cobalt]

May I ask why?

[surreal basin]

My fuckload of paaridar session went well

[craggy thunder]

idk ‘god of self-mastery fucking bites it’ just seems funny to me

[trim grotto]

Y'all wanna take bets

[unborn rain]

Irori dies and suddenly everyone is like "idk I can probably have cake for dinner"

[limber comet]

I'd be confident on placing bets

I'd place 10 on Asmodeus and 20 on Sarenrae

[unborn rain]

you'd definetly lose 20 I think

[trim grotto]

40 bucks on Iomedae

[rustic cape]

I'm not betting on anyone I just have picks I'd like to see

[surreal basin]

I obv won’t actually but I’d put 25 on Iomadae

[craggy thunder]

I’m putting a 5 on Irori

[craggy thunder]

Conversely competitive eaters the world over just aren’t into it anymore

[unborn rain]

All across Golarion, people have a lie in

[trim grotto]

Going to be joining a campaign of against the Aeon Throne!!

[light gyro]

my money's on asmodeus. maybe that voids a bunch of important contracts resulting in the god war getting even worse

[trim grotto]

BORN TO DIE
PACT WORLD IS A FUCK
KILL EM ALL 318 (AG)
410,757,864,530 DEAD AZLANTIS

[light gyro]

ough its a starfinder path, that explains why i didnt recognise the name

[light gyro]

minor spoilers for strength of thousands
||there's a fight where your goal is to look like you're bad at fighting, which you achieve with a once-per-round single action. my party took this quite seriously so they almost all did it every round. turns out having only two turns a round to actually fight with can turn medium encounters into surprisingly dangerous eight-round gauntlets!!! oof||

[frank crystal]

Hey so like, why does it feel like pathfinder 2e needs to update constantly on foundry?

The game does not get new content this quickly

[solar tendon]

bug fixes n that

or just new features

[frank crystal]

Huh

[rapid wagon]

technically azlanti is a pathfinder term that ended up in pf

just that as far as golarion was concerned there are no more azlanti

but in starfinder they have their own star empire

[sinful gyro]

Lots of the updates are tweaks and fixes and new content on the foundry automation side

Not the game content side

[solar tendon]

yeah

like all the text for each spell from a content update can get done in a big drop

but then making macros etc for each of those spells happens in a trickle between content updates

as well as general system improvements like automating new things

[frank crystal]

Honestly I guess I just haven’t run into much not automated yet

Only really kineticist impulses

[solar tendon]

that's cause there's constant updates adding new stuff hehe

[frank crystal]

Yah that makes sense lol

Probably shouldn’t be as annoyed as I was

[solar tendon]

you definitely don't really need to update every time

you can check release notes on their github

[frank crystal]

Yah but I’m always just a little bit annoyed when I see that orange icon

It just seems like it’s taunting me

Even if the only update is for a magic item I’ve never read before

[clever cobalt]

IIRC they managed to travel to another planet before Earthfall via portals, and those on that planet got stranded following Earthfall

[sinful gyro]

Kinda like the elves did

[clever cobalt]

yeah, albiet they went to a whole other star system as opposed to the next planet over

[worthy stump]

iirc, the Azlanti did colonize other planets in the Golarion system too, like Akiton, but Earthfall cut them all off from the empire and those colonies collapsed

[echo briar]

Losely speeking of earthfall, where does the name Golarion come from? because in most languages, the word for the planet is their word for earth, dirt, or land, but not Golarion

is it just a made up word with no greater connection to the setting

[sinful gyro]

I think it means The Cage

But I could be wrong

[clever cobalt]

Yeah IIRC golarion was made (as in, the planet) as a prison fkr Rovugug

And life just so happened to develop there

[ember bay]

Thought Golarion already existed and the gods just picked it to be the place they would seal the Dead Vault in?

[unborn rain]

Golarion is older than Rovagug

because it was one of the planets he wanted to chomp on after he left Axis and then got trapped

The other two planets he wanted to Chomp were Earth and Androffa (the planet the people who made androids were from)

[solar tendon]

damn he has range

[unborn rain]

Also Serenraes followers are kinda dumb

[solar tendon]

D:

[unborn rain]

she fixes a giant hole in the world and is like "DO NOT GO IN THERE" and then they build a giant city on top

[solar tendon]

yeah that didn't go super well

[sinful gyro]

Didn't she also cause the hole?

Or was it like, they made the city when she smited which caused an even bigger hole

[unborn rain]

She smited the hole back again

there was a hole, then she fixed it and was like "Don't go here" then they went there and she smote em

[light gyro]

should've put a bunch of scary spikes on top like that one document on nuclear waste storage

[solar tendon]

maybe what she did was that and it backfired like it's worried it might

[fossil temple]

Bad ending of Buckshot roullet ?

[surreal basin]

Should I put my Paaridar fellas in a Google doc or something somewhere? They turned out really well, even if they’re just the manticore paaridar level boosted and given other abilities

[turbid dagger]

I'd be interested!

[surreal basin]

I do need to make some small edits now that I’ve actually played it

Might also vary their level some given that for gameplay purposes in my campaign

They’re all level 14

[frank crystal]

I wanna see them

[surreal basin]

The mantis fella was particularly fun

Leaping grab and fling on a monk chassis is hilarious

Jumping around grabbing players and throwing them into each other

And alright I’ll throw it together this afternoon

[frank crystal]

Would it make sense to sheath a sansetsukon on your back in a like, wooden tube?

[rapid wagon]

thats the 3 part staff?

[frank crystal]

Like it’s folded in on itself and put on a tube

[frank crystal]

Yes

[rapid wagon]

i think as weapon it was probably just carried in hand or bundled in a pouch, but I could see it being placed in a tube. Though across the back in a tube large enough to store it stacked feels like it might be unnescessarily cumbersome

traditionally it'd be a cloth bag i think

[frank crystal]

Oh I didn’t know that’s how it’s normally carried

[frank crystal]

Oh

That’s admittedly kinda similar to how I was imagining it

Just made of wood instead of cloth

[rapid wagon]

because its not sharp, there's less need for a rigid sheath to protect the blade, rather you're mostly protecting it from ambient conditions

[frank crystal]

That makes sense

[rapid wagon]

are sansetsukons things i can get in pf2e as a monk using monastic weapons instead of a style?

[turbid dagger]

Yes, it has the monk tag

[surreal basin]

Ye

[turbid dagger]

Slightly Related: I only a little bit ago realized how rare versatile S/B weapons are
The Three Section Naginata is about the only one I could find
D8 deadly d8 sweep is a pretty nice statblock to have that on though, maybe I'll do some wacky human martial with one

[rapid wagon]

man i just resolved to play a kineticist

but i forgot about all the cool monk weapons

[frank crystal]

Also the sansetsukon actually has a niche now

With disarm significantly better it’s now a two handed monk weapon with disarm, a d8 damage die and the flail crit

Also parry

[warped orbit]

leiomano

though I think it's pretty much the only one

[turbid dagger]

Theres also the uh
Clockwork macuahuitl
Which near as I can tell is a greatclub with versatile s thats 550 GP for some reason, as its clockwork stuff does not seem to actually amount to any gameplay benefit?

[frank crystal]

Bo staff is the only monk weapon with reach right?

[rapid wagon]

does seem like the idea is you take a style/styles OR you take monastic weapons

instead of both

[barren cipher]

yeah it's not particularly special

[warped orbit]

pantograph gauntlet as well I think?

[frank crystal]

Yah

[warped orbit]

not that it's that good

[frank crystal]

Most stances lock you into their attacks

And the ones that don’t, you still don’t have much of a reason to use a weapon

[warped orbit]

Bo Staff is pretty good though

[frank crystal]

So monastic weapons is kinda a dead feat

[barren cipher]

yeah bladed scarf isn't a monk weapon and the ACME Extendo-Fist is

[warped orbit]

there aren't a lot of great monk weapons yeah

[frank crystal]

It’s like, bo staff, Temple sword, and that’s kinda it tbh

[rapid wagon]

i dunno if it's a dead feat, since you get expert in your weapons at the same time as you get expert in unarmed, and it frees up feat slots for other stuff rather than style feats later on, presumably

[frank crystal]

I mean there aren’t really style feats latter on

The vast majority are level 1

They’re kinda your expected level 1 choice

Unless you’re making a weapons monk

[rapid wagon]

arent there feats that link into some styles?

[frank crystal]

Yah

[rapid wagon]

thats what im referrin to

[frank crystal]

But they aren’t necessary

They’re just extra feats you can take if you choose a specific stance

They aren’t like you get a new stance

[rapid wagon]

right

[frank crystal]

You get a new action for that stance

[rapid wagon]

i wasn't implyin new stances necessarily

unless you took that weave between stances thing

[warped orbit]

there's usually one advanced feat for each stance

some get two

[rapid wagon]

rather the monastic weapons feat gives you access to some stuff you would otherwise not be easily able to access, ties into progression, and then off you go

rather than any incentive to link in further feat choices

sides, some monk weapons seem pretty cool imo

[frank crystal]

Ah, I was confused

I thought you were talking about a build where you take both a stance and monastic weaponry

[rapid wagon]

negativo, though i did try to do that when i was playing around with the character builder

and found like 1 or maybe 2 stances i could use it with

the mikazuki seems like a fun thing to us

is a bow and a sansetsukon

[frank crystal]

There’s also the Bow Staff

Which is a bo and a bow

[rapid wagon]

i appreciate the pun

in the name

[warped orbit]

The thing is mostly that most Monk weapons range from kinda meh to pretty good, while stances are really good

[rapid wagon]

i feel that, though to me, the coolness is also a bit of an aesthetic consideration as well

rather than purely mechanical

like being able to be a tonfa user? kinda sick

[turbid dagger]

I'm a peafowl enjoyer but other than that I'd say Bo Staff is the primary Monastic Weapon that competes with monk stances
The others tend to be downgrades
Monastic Archer is rock solid but also isn't technically monastic weapons lol

[rapid wagon]

apparently peafowl and whirling blade stances seem neat

and yeah, i don't necessarily mind the downgrades, because i suspect the distance or size of the downgrade is not... a gulf or massive

[warped orbit]

depends on which weapon exactly, but yes it's not necessarily a huge issue

tonfa ironically are kinda not great, because they're basically worse than your regular Fist

[rapid wagon]

nunchuks, sansetsukons, tonfas, hook swords, butterfly swords, tekko kagi, and kusarigama? All of those sound great

or sound cool anyway

what makes hte tonfa worse than the fist

[warped orbit]

so as a Monk, your Fist is a d6 agile, finesse
tonfa is 1d4 agile, finesse, twin, parry

[rapid wagon]

twin and parry seem like they're not nothing at least

[warped orbit]

twin still only makes them catch up to a d6 effectively at best, and you need to dual wield and actually hit with both in the same turn
parry is technically useful, but if you are unarmed you can just use a shield instead

[frank crystal]

God that still feels weird

[rapid wagon]

butterfly swords also seem fun

[frank crystal]

I know why they can but man it doesn’t feel like monks should use shields

[turbid dagger]

Yeah the shield monk is Cursed and unfortunately Optimal

[solar tendon]

feels like unarmoured should include not having a shield haha

[frank crystal]

I can accept casters being optimal with shields

I don’t like it all the time

But I can accept it

But monks?

The punch kick move fast dudes?

Why are they optimal with shields?

[solar tendon]

especially since wearing armour is pretty much detrimental

[turbid dagger]

I DO like Peafowl sword and board monk tho
Its an entirely different narrative feel than conventional monks
More like
'swift amazonian (as in the greek ones) warrior' than 'kung fu'

[warped orbit]

but anyway, I do wish monk weapons got a boost, because I do agree a lot of them are cool conceptually
they just could stand to be a little better so they actually compete more with stances

[turbid dagger]

But shield + punching is just
yuck

[rapid wagon]

kungfu utilizes shields!

[frank crystal]

Yah weapon monks feel much more shieldy

[rapid wagon]

but usually paired with a sword

[frank crystal]

That’s fair

[surreal basin]

Part of the thing about monk weapons are like

They can’t be better than stances because like

Yknow

[frank crystal]

Worst part is that it’s optimal to also hold a potion

[surreal basin]

Other people can still grab them lmao

[frank crystal]

So really it’s shield+potion+kicking

[rapid wagon]

yeah but tbh optimal can eat my butt

[surreal basin]

There is a new magic bo staff that fucks severely

It can turn into a shield

[thorny berry]

I feel like maybe the monastic weaponry feat should just be baselined but even then some of the weapons are just bad

[rapid wagon]

i won't be holding a shield and a potion and kicking everyone

[turbid dagger]

Yes
I have always said this
The best monk is kneeing dudes in the chest with a steel shield in one hand and a handle of alcohol in the other

[surreal basin]

See this is

Part of why I make drawing consumables free

Is cause it taking hand and action economy leads to some

Weird things

[rapid wagon]

ill take the hit of being not optimal to avoid the dissonance of playing a character theme or style around being the most optimal

[solar storm]

It's absolutely foul thematically yeah

[surreal basin]

Again

Umbrella Staff

From the new Season of Ghosts book

Is like

[rustic cape]

Captain America monks are good, actually

[surreal basin]

The ultimate thematic horseshit

[turbid dagger]

But yeah, uh
There are some true F-- stinkers like the Sai or Fighting Fan but you can make most of the monk weapons WORK
But most of them do not offer many tangible benefits over base Powerful Fist, and only one or two offer any benefits compared to stances
Unfortunately

[rapid wagon]

like ill play a butterfly swords monk if i wanna play a butterfly swords monk, the idea that its a bit worse on a mathetmatical analysis wouldn't really like... slow me down at all

because i like butterfly swords

[solar storm]

Yeah most of them are viable just not strongly compelling

[carmine egret]

That's the one time it works lol

[turbid dagger]

Then feel free!
Only god can stop you

[rapid wagon]

its a bit silly also, that a knuckle duster just makes you worse at punching xD

actually on a tangent from the current topic; would yall use a monk class to make a street brawler/pugilist/boxer?

[carmine egret]

The impression I get is that PF2 is balanced to the point that it can seem very powergamey just because optimization becomes about squeezing out the last drops of potential power difference

[rustic cape]

Monk or fighter

[solar storm]

You can but I think if you're gonna wear armor fighter is better

[rapid wagon]

i was thinkin no armor if that helped

[rustic cape]

Monk probably then

[rapid wagon]

or light armor, possibly

[turbid dagger]

Yeah! You could also do Fighter with Martial Artist or something
Or Animal Barbarian with flavor changes (take ape, say you are just Going Sicko Mode instead of transforming)

[solar storm]

Yeah there's a lot of "fighting for that last 5% optimal" in PF2 which is... satisfying but also not really necessary in anything but the most brutal death marchy campaign

[carmine egret]

Martial Artist Ruffian Rogue

[rapid wagon]

martial artist is a dedication?

[solar storm]

Yeah its kind of a diet monk dedication thing

[turbid dagger]

Yeah, its an archetype what gives you powerful fist and monk stances

[rapid wagon]

ooo neat

[turbid dagger]

Aside: This does remind me that 5e has a shield monk for Odyssey Of The Dragonlords thats real cool https://odysseyofthedragonlords.obsidianportal.com/wikis/monk-monastic-tradition-way-of-the-shield

[rustic cape]

Fun fact: ruffian’s wording makes this non-viable

[surreal basin]

Ngl I would like a couple monastic weaponry feats that like

[carmine egret]

Aww

[surreal basin]

Just upgrade the damage die

Of the weapons

[rapid wagon]

yeah that would be cool

[surreal basin]

And maybe give them some oomf

Fuck it maybe I’ll make a little feat line for that

[carmine egret]

I thought that got changed in remaster but I could be misremembering

[rustic cape]

It should work, but it doesn’t because ruffian is still seriously undertuned

[turbid dagger]

d10 temple sword 😌

(Its still a sidegrade to Dragon Stance at best its fine)

[rapid wagon]

it is a bit interesting that there is a whole host of monk weaponry, with most of them with an overall reduction in damage to the class that uses them. Many of them do seem to have a defensive benefit

so like you could go monastic weapons and dual butterfly swords; you end up with good kicks and then you defend yourself with the blades thematically could be neat

[rustic cape]

Okay lukewarm take: monk weapons should work with monk stances by modifying them slightly

[rapid wagon]

monastic weapons + dragon stance or something

the weapons are a shittier shield with concealable, and the kicks hit hard

[surreal basin]

Alright so

The only way I could see that working is like

[turbid dagger]

There should be more peafowl stances I agree

[rapid wagon]

weapons being butterfly swords

[surreal basin]

If you can still use monastic weapons in stance but they don’t get buffed by it

[rustic cape]

Yes, that’s my proposal

[rapid wagon]

oh right, so with parrying, i dont have to attack with it right

[rustic cape]

Pull out the blades to modify but not enhance the stance, that kind of thing

[rapid wagon]

i can just be carrying em

[surreal basin]

Mhm

[rapid wagon]

and benefit from parry?

[rustic cape]

Sidegrades

[surreal basin]

Yeah

[rapid wagon]

theres nothing more efficient about runing up and enchanting weapons over like... hand wraps right?

i guess a side benefit might be since a lot of monk weapons come as twins, you could enchant two different things

[turbid dagger]

TBH id accept like
If you have a weapon in hand, add versatile for that weapons damage to your stance
Because then I could do my sword and board monk with a stance

[rapid wagon]

tbh there should be a sword and board monk stance xD

[rustic cape]

Yeah, that’d be the simplest way to do it

[turbid dagger]

There is it's peafowl
Generally considered Kind Of Eh
But I like it

[rapid wagon]

free stepping seems cool

oh what makes the fighting fan so bad?

being able to hide it as a personal device seems fun

[turbid dagger]

See the monk already has a weapon that's totally invisible

It can't ever be disarmed

[rapid wagon]

sure, but you can't use your hand as a utility tool to solve environmental problems in a fix, or jam it into a spot to keep something shut while you run (unless you have detachable hands)

(this not being specific support for the fan)

[solar storm]

I think the fighting fan is much more relevant as a sneaky weapon for non-monks

[solar tendon]

fighting fan is not the worst d4 die trait spam weapon tbh

[rapid wagon]

kinda unfortunate there's no jian style weapon

[solar tendon]

but its like when you can swap deadly d6 for a d8 damage die by taking wolf stance its

fudnamentally its kinda a thing where most monk weapons are agile and finesse on the chassis that one of its big deals is getting The Best Agile Finesse Weapons

[turbid dagger]

Yeah that's the sai
Finesse agile disarm versatile p/b

[rapid wagon]

how do you access monk weapons as a non monk? Can a fighter automatically use them?

[solar tendon]

yeah

they're just weapons

[rapid wagon]

:/

maybe if monastic weapons at a feet just bumped up the damage dice by a factor of 1 for monk weapons; or got some sort of flat bonus

[solar tendon]

monastic weaponry should just not have a feat tax

[turbid dagger]

The monk tag marks stuff monks CAN use, not things ONLY THEY can usr

[solar tendon]

its unnecessary

[solar storm]

I think fighting fans have a pretty nice niche as an easy to conceal weapon for a Rogue more than as a Monk weapon even with the Monk tag

[rapid wagon]

honestly i figured the idea was to give monk weapons useful tags

but apparently stances also just give you all those

and loads of damage

and everything

[solar storm]

Has there been any indication of Monk weapon changes in PC2?

I remember the devs saying something about them

[rapid wagon]

bit disappointing tbh

[solar storm]

In a more general sense

[turbid dagger]

Thing is fighting fans don't even have the concealable trait

[rapid wagon]

i did notice that rpgbot evaluated a weapn monk as mostly being fine

[solar tendon]

i mean I dont think fans are any easier to conceal

the point is you dont even need to

arguably

[rapid wagon]

that would be my thought

[turbid dagger]

Well the sword cane is in the same boat and it's concealable

They're both mundane objects with sharp stuff inside

[solar tendon]

difference being that with a sword cane you have to figure out it can open hence the -2

fighting fan if inspected not so difficult

but both have the advantage of hopefully avoiding inspection entirely

[barren cipher]

i don't put much stock in rpgbot's evaluations but it's mostly fine yeah

[solar tendon]

its just the annoying pf2e thing where its not bad by any means its just worse for no reason and its frustrating

[rapid wagon]

yeah, i gotta fight the negativity cause its a bit disappointing that a bunch of cool stuff is just "All around worse and thre's no point in it" vibes

[barren cipher]

i think you can and should eliminate the monk tag and it won't make a blind bit of difference

[rapid wagon]

just do X, or Y could do it all better

[barren cipher]

it just increases the laundry list of weapons

frankly we have more than enough weapons

[surreal basin]

I mean I like the big list personally

And the monk trait kinda needs to exist for monks to be able to use weapons without getting into like, either finessing them or GREATSWORD MONK

[rapid wagon]

are you saying remove the monk tag or just remove every monk tagged weapon? cause removing the monk tag doesn't remove the monk oriented weapons, just takes away the tag

[turbid dagger]

Yeah honestly like
If you can flurry with dragon stance why not flurry with greataxe

[barren cipher]

i think you can do a lot worse than just removing the monk weapons as well but if you want that variety then you can keep 'em i guess

[surreal basin]

I just like having all the weird variety yeah

I’m a big gear porn fan tho

I like all the little fiddly bits

[rapid wagon]

i mean, if you wanna get reductionist, you can really remove every weapon and just have "Weapon" as a profile, and attach traits and damage dice as a sort of points system

[turbid dagger]

Yeah I like a big list
And tbh I'd take bo staff and temple sword even on non monks

[surreal basin]

Even if they kinda suck most of the time but I think that’s more on the design of them ala like

Fucking backswing

[solar tendon]

afaik the monk tag is just a vibe check

[surreal basin]

Or forceful

[turbid dagger]

Bo staff lunging fighter 😌

[surreal basin]

I think it still takes points

Like I’ve never seen a d12 monk weapon lmao

[solar tendon]

maybe

[surreal basin]

Although a kenku might be able to make a naginata a monk weapon iirc

Wait

No

Nodachi

That’s the one

Big sword

[turbid dagger]

TBH back swing is neat
It's agile in the one circumstance you want agile most
'fuck I rolled a 2 on my no map strike's
And you get a bigger damage dice than agile usually

[surreal basin]

Fair enough

Forceful is the one that I’m probably more down on tbh

[thorny berry]

also: advanced monk weapons are a solid lol

[surreal basin]

Oh boy a whole 2 damage

Advanced weapons in general suck and it’s a bad system

[thorny berry]

https://2e.aonprd.com/Weapons.aspx?ID=283

[barren cipher]

i mean it's a die increase isn't it?

[thorny berry]

and they made it a d4!!!

[barren cipher]

nobody says the die bump on fatal is bad

[solar tendon]

but I think thats because the monk vibed weapons are usually ones that get abilities that dont actually like. mechanically provide a new niche to monk because the reason they feel monk-y is they do the same thing they already made monks do better

[surreal basin]

Nah forceful is just a flat damage modifier equal to the number of dice

[turbid dagger]

Yeah
Especially since it's almost always in the context of like
Jump through hoops for damage parity with this other eeapon

[surreal basin]

Which is….. uh

Okay

But

Like

[solar tendon]

word salad oops

[surreal basin]

It’s only on your MAP attacks

[frank crystal]

Yah backswing to me is like, budget Agile for higher damage weapons

[surreal basin]

Idk I’m not like

Crazy down on it

[barren cipher]

this is just fists but worse, isn't it

[surreal basin]

It’s certainly not disarm

[silver geyser]

What you want is Agile Backswing

[surreal basin]

Which like

gestures at the disarm action

[silver geyser]

As ever, I am here to rep the Fire Poi as an advanced weapon

[solar tendon]

in this brave new disarm world?

[turbid dagger]

TBH
Disarm kind of whips now that success sticks around
Sword and board fighter that can still do the -2?

[surreal basin]

Even in this brave new world I’d kinda

Rather trip someone

[turbid dagger]

Yeah nuDisarm is legit

[frank crystal]

I mean disarm is pretty solid now

[solar tendon]

same

[surreal basin]

But that’s fair

[solar tendon]

trip is so good

[surreal basin]

If you can’t trip someone

[frank crystal]

It’s still probably worse then trip

But like, it’s more common then trip

[surreal basin]

Than disarm is fine

It’s not unuseable anymore so I’ll take it lol

[silver geyser]

Weapons are way more common than not as difficult trip opportunities

[frank crystal]

Also like, if you do get the crit it’s legitimately better then trip

Because that’s just no more weapon now

[surreal basin]

It trades off the trip’s standard value being better for having a way better crit yeah

[rapid wagon]

honestly like, to me, the main thing is that monk weapons (outside of game logic, using like martial arts monk logic) are integrated into a style or art they learn or practice. So they should enhance something they do. In a mechanical sense, they should be widening options and applicability OR improving existing capabilities; but stances do that much better i guess, at the cost of needing to get into the stance at the start of combat

[barren cipher]

the crit fail is also a lot less bad

[turbid dagger]

There's a funny edge case cuz
Standing from prone is move
And fix disarm is manip
So it can get disrupted
(I have done this on my freehand fighter)

[surreal basin]

If a teammate goes before the enemy you just disarmed

You can be

Mean

[silver geyser]

If you're in a humanoid heavy campaign, disarm does some amazing work

[surreal basin]

I almost always have someone surrender if they get their weapon taken and they don’t have good unarmed attacks

Cause like

[rapid wagon]

i feel like disarm is also conditionally great if they have a sick magic weapon

[surreal basin]

They aren’t winning this fight anymore lmao

[turbid dagger]

Yeah

[rapid wagon]

that they rely on

[frank crystal]

All of my guards are trained 3rd level monks at minimum

[surreal basin]

It happened in Strength of Thousands to an abendego brute

[solar tendon]

oh disarm fix being disruptable is pretty good

[surreal basin]

Who has like

A 1d8+5 punch

Vs level 11 characters

He just gave up

That’s not happening

[rapid wagon]

like you know how it sucks when, as a fighter, you get your fancy, expensive, magical and enchanted weapon you'lve put everything into? It sucks when that happens to someone else who did the same thing

[solar tendon]

I do hate it when I get my cool weapon yes

[turbid dagger]

I felt like such a motherfucker
It was on ||voldmyra|| from kingmaker too
Just
Egar Kalt, certified Hard MF

[surreal basin]

Disarm is one of those things I don’t have enemies do unless like

[silver geyser]

Disarm is in a healthy spot is the big takeaway

[surreal basin]

They have features about it

Because good god it’s just awful feeling if they crit a player lmao

[silver geyser]

Yuuuup

[rapid wagon]

i havent gm'd pf, but like... i feel like i would

cause i feel like a player egg's basketing should be targeted a minority of the time

[turbid dagger]

It convinced me to snag disarming twist on him down the line

[silver geyser]

It's such an encounter defining choice

[surreal basin]

Oh yeah that’s what I meant is like

Enemies tripping people? That’s fine that just happens

An enemy who disarms you? The encounter is now about that

[silver geyser]

Sometimes players deserve to eat shit, tbh. :p

[surreal basin]

Oh yeah just not an always food is my point

[silver geyser]

Ye

[surreal basin]

It’s like tumble through where I generally don’t have NPCs do it a LOT

[rapid wagon]

i do feel like if you're a enemy npc and you see a PC with a magic energy sword of godly power and you see that he's just holding it, you might feel like if you can get that sword out of his hands, you will stand a MUCH better chance at surviving today's battle

[silver geyser]

Yes, absolutely

[rapid wagon]

(you probably won't, you're an NPC, but like the thought is there)

[silver geyser]

But Yurgen McRando should not be that guy

[surreal basin]

I guess I just mean for me it’s like

[solar tendon]

hm

[surreal basin]

A thematic choice

As well as a mechanical one

[rapid wagon]

are there tools to make it harder to be disarmed in the game?

like tying the sword to you

[surreal basin]

Oh yeah

[rapid wagon]

or chaining it to you?

[surreal basin]

There’s a bevy of mechanical things to make disarming harder

Which used to be something of a running joke

[barren cipher]

retrieval prism is a favourite

[surreal basin]

Cause disarm used to be

Really bad

[silver geyser]

I don't know if locked gauntlets or the like are still a thing

[barren cipher]

no, i think they're out unless they're buried in treasure vault somewhere

[silver geyser]

A pity

[surreal basin]

I am pretty sure weapon cords still exist as an armor mod tho

[barren cipher]

i think there might be a bit of string that lets you pick your stuff up again

[silver geyser]

I lived my Black Templar vibes

[surreal basin]

Although god forbid you use it reload…..

[rapid wagon]

are they things that the players can access reactively? like if they get disarmed once, they can go buy some gear to remedy the situation?

[frank crystal]

Yah disarm is one of those actions where like, even if it’s good advice to have NPCs fight smart, they still gotta fight a little dumb for encounters to be fun

[surreal basin]

Yeah generally

They’re like

Items

[rapid wagon]

ok cool

[frank crystal]

Like yah, maybe it’s now very optimal for NPCs to go for disarms

[rapid wagon]

itd suck to want to solve for disarming bad guys

[frank crystal]

But man that’s unfun if the dice go off

[rapid wagon]

and have to take a feat

[surreal basin]

I’d maybe have it happen more in like

[barren cipher]

soulforger is pretty good if you're upset about getting disarmed

[surreal basin]

A pirate campaign

[clever cobalt]

Pirate Campaign....

[barren cipher]

just sailor moon transform your sword back

[rapid wagon]

i like the idea of human enemies going for disarms as part of a larger goal of taking prisoners instead of murder

[surreal basin]

Disarming to me thematically feels very like…… idk the word but like

[silver geyser]

Actually, this would be perfect for Edgewatch

[rapid wagon]

like "hey i disarmed you, lets talk"

[surreal basin]

Emasculating as compared to anything else

[rapid wagon]

or "hey i disarmed you, surrender"

[surreal basin]

Getting disarmed really makes a character seem incompetent lol

[barren cipher]

i mean it is

it also bypasses, like, the whole rest of the combat mechanics

[surreal basin]

Again I’m speak from like

A pure GM perspective

As to why I don’t do it a bunch

[rapid wagon]

unles you're a monk lol, they disarm your monastic weapons, and suddenly you're more dangerous because monk weapons were weaker than your hands

[surreal basin]

Even with the rules

[barren cipher]

pf2 did a good job of limiting save or die/suck forever in the magic system, it's sort of galling to see it's still there and still only really affects martials

[silver geyser]

"I'm going to take it easy on you." pulls out nunchucks

[rapid wagon]

ive never been a huge fan of the idea of total investing on a single weapon and then enabling that choice to only benefit them conscientiously

[barren cipher]

unfortunately in base pf2 that's kinda the only game in town

you aren't expected to have the resources to keep up with several sets of gear

[rapid wagon]

i feel like if you're a real warrior in the world of golarion, you might have alternatives or back ups instead of becoming a complete wreck the moment you drop your sword

[silver geyser]

I will say that backup weapons are dirt cheap now at least

[surreal basin]

The only reason my fighter had a bunch of gear is like

Grabbing enemy weapons on occasion

[barren cipher]

i'm a big fan of tattooing fundamental runes onto people

[surreal basin]

And putting them in my thousand blade thesis

[rapid wagon]

cause like, ultimately, your sword can be stolen, broken, dropped, melted, etc.

even if magical ones are a LOT harder to break

[surreal basin]

They aren’t!

[silver geyser]

And having proficiency with unarmed no matter what helps

[rapid wagon]

oh no?

[surreal basin]

Magic in PF2E doesn’t improve a weapons hp in any way

[rapid wagon]

i thought magical-ing shields and weapons upped their hardness

[barren cipher]

yeah no even the magical materials aren't that tough

[surreal basin]

But also weapons are un-targetable

[rapid wagon]

no more sunderbarian shenanigans?

[silver geyser]

There's no more sunder, yeah

[surreal basin]

Yeah no more sunder

[rapid wagon]

cant they be targeted when not held or worn?

[silver geyser]

There's some bastard creatures

[barren cipher]

yes, unattended objects can break

[surreal basin]

Only very specific enemies can hurt equipment you’re using

And it’s always hell

[barren cipher]

but broken is pretty easy to get around

it's a little less likely for them to be destroyed

[surreal basin]

Tbh I kinda think materials need a bit of a rework personally

Like for armor

[silver geyser]

Fixing things can be trivial

[surreal basin]

Cause adamantine armor should be cooler than it is

That shit is expensive as hell, it should give like, low physical resistance probably

Shields materials do matter tho

A sturdy adamantine shield is hell

There’s also the indestructible shield magic item which I’m planning on giving my Cleric/Champion at some point

I say cleric/champion cause they basically built a discount champion who was a caster

Level 11, 40 AC with buffs up, access to healing font and healing hands

I Am In Hell

Sorry for the ramble lol

[rapid wagon]

out of curiosity how much of a compromise in your ability to keep up with the curve is it to invest in like 2 pieces of gear, with one measurably behind the other by like 1 tier?

i dunno like an enchanted weapon and a backup enchanted knife or something

[surreal basin]

If you’re keeping it behind one tier it’s not a big deal

Like it’s notably worse but the runes scale steeply in price so you’ll probably be able to easily keep it ‘up to date’

[turbid dagger]

Yeah by the point you can get a +2 rune a +1 rune will be hilariously easy to acquire

[rapid wagon]

Never hurts to have a good boot knife

Or some kind of alternative to being rendered completely incapable by not having your main thing around for whatever reason

(I'm generally a big proponent in general of not having the badass party of heroes only ever fight when they are at their very best with all their regalia and resources available to them)

[barren cipher]

i mean that's all very good practical dungeoning

and i think that if you're running that sort of game then it's fine

[rapid wagon]

Does a 10 foot pole still have a home in a dungeoneers kit?

[clever cobalt]

Reminds me that you can technically get a Striking Rune without a +X rune

One of my friends is using a striking bow without a +1

[rapid wagon]

You know, it's actually hugely impractical come to think of it, to carry anything around that's 10 feet tall

[clever cobalt]

This is the same game with the level 5 Fighter with basic, non-magic weapons

[rapid wagon]

Like most places don't get interiors built with 11 feet of clearance

Much less actual dungeons

I guess if the pole breaks down into smaller parts it makes more sense

[solar tendon]

it collapses yeah

[surreal basin]

….. I’m almost certain you can’t do that

[clever cobalt]

You can, at least on foundry

Though if there is a rule I'd like to see it

[surreal basin]

…. Huh

I guess there’s isn’t one

[heavy fulcrum]

yeah you can technically have any arrangement of +X and striking, its just very silly

[solar tendon]

https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=738

the last sentence describes a similar thing as unlikely and not impossible yeah

[heavy fulcrum]

the important thing is that skipping upgrades doesnt save you money, since you only pay the difference when upgrading

[surreal basin]

Was this intentional?

They they do that on purpose??????

[heavy fulcrum]

+3 major striking costs 40k GP no matter how you get there

[turbid dagger]

Also I am very late because I was walking my dog during this convo
But
What now 👁️

[surreal basin]

It’s not on AON cause

gestures to the state of the website

[solar tendon]

a striking weapon is 35 gp cheaper than a +1 striking weapon though

[surreal basin]

But it’s a sick ass umbrella that’s a bow staff that can function as a shield

[turbid dagger]

Bo or Bow
And can you use the shield while using the staff or is it some 'one action to interact to swap modes' nonsense

[heavy fulcrum]

if youre penny-pinching about 35 gp in pathfinder 2e, i cant help you

[solar tendon]

mm

[turbid dagger]

35 gp is a fair amount early on I admit
We're playing SOT and we're constantly starving for coin

[surreal basin]

Bo

[clever cobalt]

It's cheaper ig

[surreal basin]

I do not remember

[clever cobalt]

We're level 5