I tend to see axe, pudge, and furion as most often toxic
#DOTA 2
manic nimbus
gritty sparrow
I'm the support that forgets to buy dust but as soon as someone goes invis I slam a sentry down as though that was my plan all along
karmic grove
I'm the support that forgets to buy dust but as soon as someone goes invis I sla...
lol same
gritty sparrow
God, my entire report history on dota is like, full of furion and axe
gritty sparrow
I forgot about LC but I also haven't seen much of her recently
cursive wing
Congratulations you are now a mid player
gritty sparrow
https://media.tenor.com/EvHHbIjFLzkAAAAM/shadow-fiend-shadowraze.gif
Leveled ult instead of stats smh
viscid tapir
i'm a believer in levelling SF ult
paper shell
Slark players are on the same tier as shadow fiend players
Oh I hadn’t even read the rest when I replied lol it’s literally the next thing said
cursive wing
Sf has a history going back to dota1 of being that way
willow topaz
God I wanna play puck
yes, join us 😈
delicate jungle
Would anyone wanna doater a bit later on today?
vapid ledge
i'm down
karmic grove
I'd be down
reef parcel
potentially
till isn't working today but that's cause he's super sick
will have to see
lucid sluice
Are there any heroes y'all just can't make work cause your brain just doesn't click with how they are supposed to play? Mine is Dark Seer. I can look at all of his abilities and recognize them as ridiculously good, but whenever I play him he just feels so weak
This little purple conehead will be the death of me i stg
delicate jungle
<@&877973728997294120> dota?
karmic grove
Doter
delicate jungle
any more?
reef parcel
till's still sleeping I think, gonna pass on dota 😖
lucid sluice
I can doter
delicate jungle
1 more then
vapid ledge
yeah i've confirmed that i'm donw
lucid sluice
4 is pretty good
delicate jungle
@light urchin ?
light urchin
fraid not 😔 but thanks
delicate jungle
ok thats fine
delicate jungle
4 is pretty good
i dont wanna have a random person
karmic grove
They could be a friendly random person
lucid sluice
eh, alright then
delicate jungle
They could be a friendly random person
doubt it
karmic grove
they do exist, albeit rarely :v
vapid ledge
wait are we no-game if no 5?
karmic grove
I'd be fine with 4 
delicate jungle
ok
cursive wing
why did you react with that emoji
As if my piss is a fine Italian wine
I will return in 4 minutes
manic nimbus
have covid so I think I'll pass
vapid ledge
get well soon
cursive wing
ggs
oh man for a real throwback look at this match
i was support riki
back when riki was one of the strongest supports in the game
gritty sparrow
If you go p4 and do a kill lane maybe
Support Riki was really popular when he had an ability called Sleep Dart
karmic grove
r5 is actually pretty enjoyable, I like the challenge of keeping ward coverage up/dewarding and staying on top of bounty/wisdom timers and then stacking camps. Its a bit overwhelming and I've definitely let stuff slip but its quite engaging
Helps that venge is a fun character, gonna play a lot more of her along with venom. Does anyone have any recommendations for other solid r5 heroes to try? Ideally nothing too fancy mechanically
vapid ledge
do ppl play bane on 5?
gritty sparrow
Yeah
Good on 5 if you can nightmare save your carry and enfeeble enemies trying to attack them
vapid ledge
ok so i am not immediately bad at judging
cursive wing
Support Riki seems cool, Is it doable nowadays?
it was good mostly because of his old aghanim's shard ability
it was a long range targetted spell that launched a dart projectile. when it contacted the enemy they would be put to sleep for a long duration, and then they take damage on wakeup and i think were also slowed
for 1400 gold you have this ability
it was an amazing pickoff tool
delicate jungle
I see
karmic grove
Oh nice, I like bane, they look cool
gritty sparrow
Bane is good if you like punishing the type of carry that goes in and does everything they want to do during their BKB timing
Phantom Assassin, Sven, Troll Warlord
Forces them to play around you or lose
Note: playing Bane will lead to them trying to kill you first every fight
karmic grove
Just more opportunities for me to practice not panicking in fights :v
gritty sparrow
Also a good lesson for item optimization!
Dying constantly leads to questions like what can you do to stop this
The answer can be Ghost Scepter, Force Staff, Linkens, Glimmer Cape, ect
Sometimes you just don't have the gold for that cause you are a lousey support and your team is losing but ya know
karmic grove
Even then there's positioning better or keeping on top of warding flanks
manic nimbus
riki support is not really viable anymore
manic nimbus
and in general I'd advise against the "unconventional" supports early
delicate jungle
isnt that still technically 4
manic nimbus
yeah but its not good
delicate jungle
ok
manic nimbus
like you just don't bring much to the team
delicate jungle
and like, nyx assassin is right there i guess
manic nimbus
yeah I mean plenty of them
like the numbers are farm priority more than role exactly
though some roles tend towards specific numbers
delicate jungle
I see
manic nimbus
nyx and sky have really big magic burst with only a few items
clockwerk or earth sprit or spirt breaker or tusk are initiators and controllers
invoker as a 4, or rubick or etc are backline mages that scale with some items
furion or bounty as a 4 are free to roam the map and be annoying and eventually can become farmed and a 4th core
karmic grove
Is snapfire more of a 4 or a 5? I figure she can probably do both, since at a glance she doesn't look super item dependent
manic nimbus
I'd say more a 4
but can do either
there is a rightclick build for her lategame, but in general she likes having a few items and does need to get a bit in peoples face and so wants to be not totally made of paper
karmic grove
Yeah, that's fair
delicate jungle
Are hoodwink and disruptor similar in niche as a 4?
manic nimbus
similar ish, hoodwink is just a grab bag of stuff, disruptor has a big teamfight spell and good catch
delicate jungle
I’m just looking to figure out some other 4s to be more diverse
manic nimbus
hoodwink can become a rightclicker as the game goes on but disruptor will always be a mage
tbh I see disrumptor more as a 5 than a 4 (and I believe thats the orthodox view)
but sometimes you really do want the aghs I guess
personal playstyles can differ with heroes too
gritty sparrow
While roles are never the most strict generally you want to be able to do some of the few core things that 4s tend to do
Are you able to roam and get kills, are you able to bully the enemy out of lane really hard, and are you able to be useful without farm
Riki fills out wanting to roam but past your smoke cloud you are pretty useless without farm, for example
As much as Invoker or Rubick or Furion want farm and items they still have very good utility without and can exist being poor
delicate jungle
Ok
gritty sparrow
Also Grandar is likely accurate on Disrupter, I think I mentioned him being 4 from my image of how some people play him of just maxxing Glimpse and roaming everywhere
delicate jungle
Ah ok
Disruptor is cool but ima focus on 4 for now
Just tryna figure out what one or two other heroes would be good to look into in terms of like repertoire as a 4, or in case hoodwink gets banned, etc
gritty sparrow
Could try bounty hunter
Pretty straight forward and funny. Hate having one on my team but a lot of people like him
light urchin
I love Bounty Hunter
You just go around mugging people
They did remove some of his more support-oriented kit like sharing Track bonuses I think but being able to run up and stun people is a valuable support move anyway
I also liked Klinkz as a 4
But his CC is less hard and he needs to think more about ambushes
reef parcel
and in general I'd advise against the "unconventional" supports early
@delicate jungle I agree with gran here ^ especially when we're new to stuff it helps to learn the layer 1 conventional play before the weird stuff
we gotta know the rules before we can break them
delicate jungle
Yeah
delicate jungle
Pretty straight forward and funny. Hate having one on my team but a lot of peopl...
Why is that? On the hate having one on your team bit
vapid ledge
while bounty is more active than LoL's cat, who literally attaches itself to a friendly hero and becomes intangible and turns off their own autoattacks, BH still FEELS low impact in lane?
-izen, saying this after just having had a game where his lane partner BH bullied the hell out of his lane opponent
manic nimbus
clinkz 4 lost a bit with medallion being removed
I think he really needs money to work now
I'd consider him a weird 4
the best thing BH can do as a support in lane is repeatedly snipe couriers
you want a ward behind their tower
light urchin
I think he really needs money to work now
Fair fair
gritty sparrow
Why is that? On the hate having one on your team bit
His strongest spell is Track, which. critically, does nothing if you are losing. Bounty sucks at teamfights, can't engage himself once they have vision like if they are in their own base, and loses effectiveness once they can just cleanse off Track
His purpose in life is that he can skyrocket your teams gold advantage
He just really feels like a dead weight on your team if he loses lane
delicate jungle
Ok
delicate jungle
yeah just didnt want to yet
violet talon
fair fair
lucid sluice
would anyone be down to play soon
reef parcel
<@&877973728997294120> wanna dota?
steel forge
I could dote
lucid sluice
yuh
paper shell
I could dote
Though it looks like more than enough players already, clearly 1 min response time is too slow
steel forge
@reef parcel if you or one of the other current dota folks wouldn't mind just pinging me when your game is done, I'm gonna go read a book until then :)
viscid tapir
@steel forge game's done
delicate jungle
game 2
viscid tapir
yeah
we recovered pretty well, I genuinely forgot for a moment that this was the game you and Punchbunny were having trouble with bot lane
delicate jungle
we fed him too much tho
steel forge
it had been a very long time since then yeah lol
delicate jungle
i need to get better at using items
steel forge
just didn't quite pan out
glossy stratus
That was a game where neutral items RNG was actually huge
viscid tapir
I'm not the best at closing out games
glossy stratus
Namely that I didn't get a Ninja Gear
Let Void chrono me first a lot of the time, and that usually meant we lost the fight
delicate jungle
aeon disk can keep you alive in chrono
glossy stratus
I'm not the best at closing out games
I think we just needed to be a bit more coordinated in terms of objectives, smoke up and go for picks or fall back and farm
delicate jungle
i guess
glossy stratus
Yeah, was going for Aeon, but Oracle is a hard 5
i.e. does not get money
Considered taking Pirate Hat specifically for that, think I probably should've
delicate jungle
i coulda gone for it
glossy stratus
They had too many people that were good at clearing waves, Book of the Dead wasn't the best
delicate jungle
just didnt put that together mid game
delicate jungle
is treant protector more of a 4 or a 5?
viscid tapir
more 5 I'd say
delicate jungle
ok
paper shell
Treant is a weird hero
Treant is treant
His playstyle is that of a classic 4
However he needs very little money so he’s a 5
delicate jungle
how hard is nature's prophet?
lucid sluice
Requires good map knowledge much like IO
delicate jungle
ok
honest meteor
Aww, I missed DOTA!
delicate jungle
What positions pick in what order generally and what goes into hero choice consideration in pick phase?
reef parcel
What positions pick in what order generally and what goes into hero choice consi...
geeenerally it's 4+5 then 3+2 then 1. it's about counterpicking really
you often want to hide your spooky 1 and 2 until late in the picks so the enemy team can't counterpick them and vice versa
reef parcel
not much, you gotta start somewhere so any heroes that fit that role will do
and generally later picks will fill gaps in the team
like you can pick a 4/5 without much stun but then the cores should probably bring stuns
but if you pick a 4/5 with stuns then the cores don't have to as much
delicate jungle
but i guess you could at least pick a 4 and 5 that work well together
reef parcel
they kinda all do? they're not gonna be in the same lane
delicate jungle
fair
reef parcel
so big picture any 4 and 5 will fit into a grander teamfight
delicate jungle
but counterpicking isnt really a concern
for 4+5 on the first turn
well, you do know whos banned at least
reef parcel
yeah
delicate jungle
hrm. just trying to figure out what one or two other 4 heroes to look into in terms of like, expanding my repertoire a bit
viscid tapir
I do think there's some merit to holding support picks
There's some supports that matchup really well against certain cores that might be picked later
Oracle can ruin a lot of Dark Seer's laning
reef parcel
yeah leaving till as a late support pick is often quite strong
viscid tapir
Abbadon can dispel scary stuns like bane or shaman
reef parcel
he has a pocket AA against lifestealers
viscid tapir
yeah
lucid sluice
undying my beloved
gritty sparrow
Bane into Phantom Assassin, AA into Lifestealer, Shadow Demon into Phantom Lancer, there is merit to support later picks which have the benefit of you always playing in a stack being a thing that can happen
if you go into random pub matches good luck with that though
Your average mid lane p2 would rather lose 300 gold than not last pick
lucid sluice
Abbadon is just so good against an uncoordinated team
you just make really early pushes so much faster than you should be able to
manic nimbus
the best support against illusions iirc is still pugna, then dazzle
I'd say one consideration is that I usually like at least one of the 2 supports having a hard stun
delicate jungle
what is classified as a hard stun?
viscid tapir
it fully stuns
not slows, roots, silence
also ideally it does it for a decent duration
delicate jungle
Ok
manic nimbus
its that support heroes often have the best stuns, and if your team doesn't have any there are some really high mobility heroes that can a bit clown on you
venge has probably the premier one and is a 4 actually
glossy stratus
Magic Missile is one of those abilities that isn't unreasonable to first pick in AD, which is telling for how ridiculously good it is
"If you randomly choose 12 heroes, there's a decent chance that Magic Missile is the strongest ability any of them have"
reef parcel
karmic grove
magic missile is very good, yeah
hopefully I'll be able to join next time we're dotaing, I was too sick today :v
delicate jungle
I’ll at least try to figure out a melee 4
Since I know they play a bit different than the ranged 4s
viscid tapir
ogre
manic nimbus
ogre, abaddon or spirit breaker are my recs for easier ones
tusk or tiny are good too but a bit more technical
but not impossibly so
delicate jungle
ogre, abaddon or spirit breaker are my recs for easier ones
What would you recommend for easier ranged 4s just so I know
manic nimbus
uhh
karmic grove
snapfire?
manic nimbus
dark willow, vengeful spirit, snapfire, phoenix
would be the ones that jump out at me
veno actually as well
karmic grove
oh lol I've played veno and venge as 5s
delicate jungle
Ok
manic nimbus
they can do either but they scale enough with money they are fine as 4
the playstyle of the hero changes a little
delicate jungle
I heard with Veno you just wanna die a bunch?
manic nimbus
not especially but it can happen
karmic grove
I don't think you want to do that with any hero
veno's aghs gives them a poison explosion on death as part of its effect but ideally you want to stay alive so you can keep poisoning people/be annoying with venom wards/use support items
manic nimbus
I think some aggressive especially melee 4s tend to die a ton just because you get up in their teams face and are not exactly rich enough to buy defensive items to live, but you cause havoc and set up kills and generally make space in fights
clockwerk, tusk, etc tend to die a lot I find and thats often fine
as long as they do a lot with their deaths
karmic grove
Yeah, dying a lot is expected with heroes like that its just not something you should aim for
karmic grove
Its a cool aghs, I haven't had a chance to use it yet because I've been running off 5 money. Maybe next time we play I'll try 4ing her
manic nimbus
yeah its the reason to 4 her tbh
I think both are fine, the 4 tends to do more defensive swaps, and the 5 more suicide initiate swaps
gritty sparrow
I heard with Veno you just wanna die a bunch?
That used to be more common but nowadays it can be difficult just dying to make space cause kill gold is so much higher
I used to drop like 170 gold on death and I'd not care as the support cause I've wasted all my resources already
Now I drop post 300 already at minute 10
Also my favorite melee 4 is clockwerk
So I approve of any clockwerk gaming you do
cursive wing
my isp is ruining this dota2 game
i just gotta not get an abandon
my connection has been super spotty past 1am for a few days now
i was also dcing from poe nonstop
but the antimage who was advertising his boosting servies at the start of the game has 10 deaths
karmic grove
classic
manic nimbus
Also my favorite melee 4 is clockwerk
I really like clock and tusk tbh
though tiny seems like the current flavour of the month
gritty sparrow
Tusk I haven't liked as much because I felt a bit useless once I stopped one-shotting people. The octarine/aghs/lotus way to play him of just being a really annoying disrupter is funny though
Clock I like for how hard it is to stop me from just locking down the person I want and being such a nuisance
manic nimbus
I think tusk 4 focuses less on the oneshot and more on the save and like initiating and generally causing havoc
snowball can be a crazy good save tbh
but I always forget to use it like that in fights I have a bad habit of rolling on people asap
gritty sparrow
I will be honest I pay little attention to saving my teammates when I 4
I desire murder
Usually because they banned rubick and I've been forced to do something else
manic nimbus
yeah I have seen it a lot in pro games
snowball saving people from all sorts of stuff
I checked and you can't bring people out of chrono it seems
manic nimbus
its kinda weird what you can and can't bring
you can't do black hole, chrono or lasso according to the wiki, but otherwise can
which I guess happened for this reason
gritty sparrow
The two biggest criminals of "You can use your abilites here" ends up being Duel and Chrono in my experience
Something funny is I remember Marci used to be able to just suplex teammates out of Chrono
This child just reaching into the time sphere to grab you by the collar
steel forge
I've been looking for some more like, conceptually interesting pos 3s to learn. Tidehunter is fun enough and I certainly don't mind playing them but they're like, sorta bland
as such I've been looking at underlord? I think they're called?
are they any good? are they even actually a pos 3?
manic nimbus
underlord is a pos3 and fairly decent
mars, centaur, axe are on the simpler end
though mars sorta has a combo
steel forge
does axe also get played as a pos1/2? or does axe just kinda go off late game in pos 3 anyways
manic nimbus
axe is pretty much always a 3
there was briefly a time where he could 1 but that afik doesn't happen anymore
and 3 is a farming role so pretty much all 3s can get big lategame and go off if they do well
but it kinda depends how the game goes
manic nimbus
if you want a more big scaling one, slardar comes to mind
steel forge
slardar does seem pretty cool
manic nimbus
he is very good
but does need money to really get going
and will struggle more than someone like tide if you don't get many last hits
which is generally gonna be the case with most characters that scale harder
gritty sparrow
My personal favorite p3 is Timbersaw
Or Death Prophet
Both funny tanky spellcasters
manic nimbus
yeah death prophet is not too hard to learn but kinda plays like a weird midlaner and can be a 2
timber is great fun but probably a bit technical to start with
cursive wing
there was briefly a time where he could 1 but that afik doesn't happen anymore
axe 1 was when he had a chance to spin with shard and they would buy manta because the illus got it too. centuar also used to go 1 with return on manta illus....
a big problem you will have as offlane with randoms is you usually can't kill the enemy highground buildings
reef parcel
as such I've been looking at underlord? I think they're called?
If you've ever spectated me playing 3 I'm always playing underlord and yeah I'm just a big aura vortex with a portal
Cool 3s I like include:
- primal beast cause you run at people and suplex them
- Dawnbreaker with the global orbital drop save
- spirit breaker for global rush down ganking
There's also slardar and centaur if you want run at people and then stomp them
cursive wing
i think dawnbreaker is really good
steel forge
dawnbreaker does seem neat as well
gritty sparrow
Fun fact, rubicks highest win rate is against underlord
gritty sparrow
yeah death prophet is not too hard to learn but kinda plays like a weird midlane...
I actually prefer her 2 because i can build greedier
I love aghs/octarine on her
cursive wing
Moon shard is very funny with dp aghs
delicate jungle
probs gonna be looking into spirit breaker and veno as secondaries
delicate jungle
does spirit breaker's charge damage increase with distance or?
glossy stratus
Movement speed
delicate jungle
ok
viscid tapir
to be technical, it's the bash damage that increases with speed. The charge automatically bashes anything it goes through and gives you increased speed, but it itself doesn't deal damage, which is relevant at level 1
Notably, the charge itself does have a stun though. SB's ult, however, doesn't stun but just automatically bashes.
(and forced movement will cancel the stun from the bash)
light urchin
Spirit Breaker is great
cursive wing
when I was in high school I played him a lot
I would say here is our strategy
Spirit breaker
And I would put moo in all chat
He's so fun but I don't get him anymore
reef parcel
<@&877973728997294120> just finished work, thinking of doing a game or two with till
anyone around?
stark linden
Yeah!
viscid tapir
!
steel forge
in fact I would even like to
reef parcel
I'll be in act2
steel forge
I need about 30 seconds to finish watching this thing and then Ill be there
viscid tapir
be on in a moment, gonna refill water
paper shell
Need a coach? 🤔
reef parcel
yes
glossy stratus
Oop, guess I'll try to hop on for game 2 lol
delicate jungle
yeah hopefully i can get game 2
steel forge
y'all have fun with the dota! very fun game
paper shell
karmic grove
beautiful butterfly 🫶
gritty sparrow
lol
I've been playing league recently because a partner of mine does and talking about the differences is incredible
Everyone playing league I meet has the mechanical knowledge of a p1 player, which is: I know all the things my champions do down to their specific timing of items and powerspikes! Dunno what that guy over there does I just murder him
vapid ledge
lmao i go the other direction
i know all the things all champions do, up to one's 3rd hour of gameplay
tech? well i know they exist but probably know of very few of them
light urchin
My autism powers me through knowing more or less what everybody does
need more dota 2 experience to figure out some weirdoes though
reef parcel
Everyone playing league I meet has the mechanical knowledge of a p1 player, whic...
I was talking to @manic nimbus about this yesterday, I feel like league character design is a bit more like fighting game character design. Everyone has a set of tools that can broadly handle most circumstances and you usually have some internal resources and combos you have to learn and you can just focus on that
Which works with their unlock champions for money structure
But dota characters are more like bags of tools that fit into a team and you're more encouraged to think of yourself as a walking stun + team fight ult or whatever
Dota characters aren't sold as play fantasies or sexy gacha people, you don't buy them
Disruptor is just some dude with the pull back stick
Everyone has to understand that: teammates, enemies, etc
You're a piece on a chess board
light urchin
yeah dota 2 really bares it's roots of being an RTS in a lot of ways
you're more in charge of an important unit than you are a character
this also happens to mean that hero design gets fuckin nuts
manic nimbus
I mean there is sorta a play fantasy to it in a way
once the game has its own feeling
like
poor pos5 player. tired of midlanders mantaing off your silence and killing you anyway or escaping
pick grimstroke!
want to solo kill an enemy carry in the midgame? pick witchdoctor
etc
olive moon
ur not wrong but you can manta grimstroke silence
reef parcel
can you bkb grimstroke?
gritty sparrow
You can manta during it but I believe you'll still be silenced
olive moon
it doesnt kill the bug but you're not silenced while magic immune
viscid tapir
You can manta during it but I believe you'll still be silenced
no, the brief moment of invulnerablility/hidden from manta kills the thing
reef parcel
manta makes you invulnerable
and that kills the spirit
even going invis kills the spirit
and yeah bkb works too
like honestly grimstroke spirit is not the winning move people keep treating it as, it basically just solves dispels
you're better off using static field or something
a disruptor with static field solves manta etc, and with aghs solves bkb too
and there's always like... bane
gritty sparrow
Huh, wouldn't have thought it disappeared from that
olive moon
like honestly grimstroke spirit is not the winning move people keep treating it ...
solving dispels is really good tho
reef parcel
what dispels do carries carry that aren't manta? lotus orb?
like it's such a specific use case I dunno
olive moon
sure it gets kinda hard to bug carries once they get 2 items
but you can just bug the shadow shaman and it's basically doom
reef parcel
I mean, you can just silence the shadow shaman
play skywrath or something
any silence works
its way worse than doom because they can right click it away
or make it go away with glimmer cape
olive moon
or make it go away with glimmer cape
dust good
reef parcel
iirc invis still kills the spirit even if you can see them
reef parcel
but I'm not sure about that
euls also kills the spirit
like, the main dispels people use are euls on supports and manta on carries and both cancel grimstroke's silence anyway
and glimmer cape ruins it
the big dispel you're solving is lotus, or occassional dispel spells on characters like legion
olive moon
it's really easy to dust the person you're silencing
delicate jungle
doter in 15 or so?
glossy stratus
I'll be eating, but I might be up for a game 2
stark linden
if you wanna play the dota of rts' play zerok
delicate jungle
as in like. with the dota heroes
although valve would probs catch a lawsuit then lol
stark linden
you do have a commander which is like a hero
delicate jungle
yeah i know, i play it
<@&877973728997294120> put your hand inside the box.
hewwo?
stark linden
dont think we have the people today
stark linden
thats 3 so far
delicate jungle
lark was eating
stark linden
oh thats 5 if we get till too
stark linden
5 if we dont have lark o.o
paper shell
I could probably be around
stark linden
once again, ashley turns up, and the crowd comes lol
paper shell
I was in a dungeon 😅
viscid tapir
sorry dota group, my curse appears to be taking effect :(
(at the very least, the "I come to spectate and my friend[s] are on the back foot" part)
delicate jungle
@lucid sluice would you like to play
steel forge
are you looking for a 5th?
delicate jungle
yeah
steel forge
I could dota
gritty sparrow
sorry dota group, my curse appears to be taking effect :(
lucid sluice
<@257928924330328064> would you like to play
Doctor Who rewatch party unfortunately takes priority.
delicate jungle
its ok
manic nimbus
https://tenor.com/view/pharoah%27s-curse-pharoah-curse-gif-9768609729181577113
fantastic gif
glossy stratus
There's so much sand?!
light urchin
classic
steel forge
paper shell
paper shell
A lot of that comes with experience
Playing 5stack dota with people who also aren't new is a very hard way to learn
viscid tapir
i need to learn how to use items better
yeah, that's a huge part of getting better
paper shell
Its jumping into the deep end
viscid tapir
you eventually learn that you're not a hero with 4 spells, you're a hero with 4 spells and then 6 more mini-spells
steel forge
Playing 5stack dota with people who also aren't new is a very hard way to learn
Honestly, as a new player, I've actually found it super helpful
paper shell
When I started i always avoided using items
steel forge
it's like, semi-coordinated, people know what they're doing, people think out loud
paper shell
But I decided I needed to get better at using them
delicate jungle
i mean yeah i dont want to solo queue and get toxic assholes
steel forge
also people are helpful which is great :)
paper shell
i mean yeah i dont want to solo queue and get toxic assholes
Not everyone is toxic
There are lots of friendly people out there
I don't know how to explain the difference of playing in a game when everybody is at the sameish skill level
gritty sparrow
tbh
I played with a lot of really experienced people for most of my playtime
I only really got better experiences learning the game when I played by myself
Will of course depend on the group, but mine weren't great at explaining things to me
Also honestly when I spectated and Punch was the only one up to fight them it was a bunch of people yelling directions all at once and one person laughing at them when they threw their stun the wrong way
Which that seemed miserable.
reef parcel
I think I'm unusual in that I basically never solo queued ever in my entire dota career
I played with neighborhood friends and family back in wc3 dota and when dota 2 came out I got into it with friends and we'd stack together
I think I've solo queued like <100 times in my 3000+ games
if you don't want to solo queue that's fine tbh. Like even outside toxicity I generally find that team games involving serious coordination are good with teams of friends.
lots of people here solo queue though
it's a fantastic way to just practice any little thing you want
pick up personal skills that don't involve team stuff
which is a lot of dota
there's also co-op against bots
gritty sparrow
Back when you used to cut down trees a lot to get better wards I only learned about it when I thought to solo queue and someone threw the game and deleted their items because I didn't do it
Same with me learning about giving a bottle to someone that just tp'd to me
Not the ideal way to learn but
reef parcel
I'll also mention just... watching people play. like maybe that's boring to a lot of people but I love it
a lot of how I got good at guilty gear was just watching hours of pro strive footage and taking notes
karmic grove
I enjoy watching people play a lot
reef parcel
you can watch pro play on youtube or watch them in the dota client even, there's always a spectate tab that lets you publically log in to like the top 100 games on the ladder
and you can filter by hero
so it's weirdly easy to just be like "gimme the bestest hoodwink in the world" and it'll find you that game right now and you can jump in and watch them annihilate people
karmic grove
Purge is one of my go to background noise/semi-watch things when I'm drawing :v
steel forge
Back when you used to cut down trees a lot to get better wards I only learned ab...
maybe it's just a me thing but like, this sounds like a miserable way to learn something
reef parcel
maybe it's just a me thing but like, this sounds like a miserable way to learn s...
it's not just you haha
I think like, the sad reality is that each successive generation of gamers has had better standards for not being punched in the face by gaming experiences and that's good
us millenials just suffered through loads of bullshit in the early 2000s
it certainly taught us stuff but that doesn't mean we learned any faster or better
you can see it in the old street fighter community vs modern fighters etc
steel forge
yeah, like
that idea that that is the baseline treatment of new players in dota is almost entirely what kept me away from it
karmic grove
Definitely doesn't help that dota's quite an obtuse game
glossy stratus
I'm just thinking about how on like early xbox, AFAIK there wasn't chat in a lot of games, so people would go to the effort of going to people's profiles and direct messaging them to trash talk, and that was just considered normal?
So glad it's becoming less acceptable now
karmic grove
It's definitely got better about that, though
reef parcel
I play a lot of games with really cursed communities but the games are very good so I try to build better spaces
that is like my Whole Thing
tabletop rpg spaces, fighting game spaces, now dota spaces
like we just need to hold ourselves to actually having fun with each other and not falling into weird god gamer macho racist bullshit
I've heard enough russian / brazillian jokes for a lifetime
paper shell
I cannot stress the value solo queue has sumply because everyone is at the same level
Ashly when you learnt the game you learnt the game with friends at the same level
reef parcel
solo queue is definitely very rewarding to a lot of people here and worth trying out
reef parcel
Ashly when you learnt the game you learnt the game with friends at the same leve...
I've learned plenty of games where people were just much better than me
vapid ledge
and then there's me
reef parcel
I consider myself really good at strive now but it started with me going 2-98 against @noble tusk in 100 sets
vapid ledge
who has hundreds of hours' experience in bot games no higher difficulty than hard
paper shell
That game isn’t this game isn’t a fighting. Game
reef parcel
I was the worst player in my overwatch stack too
paper shell
Friendlies against others in a fighter is a fine way to learn
vapid ledge
and a majority of that bot game experience has been solo bots too
just so i don't let others down lmao
glossy stratus
I think watching Dota is a good way to get better, but you have to actively watch - like, be pausing and asking yourself "why did they do that" constantly
vapid ledge
i did have prior league experience with friends to help me over the basics
glossy stratus
Bot games are also good for laning mechanics
steel forge
I mean I think my thing with learning with people at my own level or whatever, is that in my experience that leads to me building bad or just straight up wrong habits
steel forge
like. teaching myself invariably leads to me teaching myshelf shortcuts which make me worse
reef parcel
I think you're likely to win more when you play with people your skill level but you're gonna learn more if you play with people who are very good and it's up to you (and up to your teammates) whether losing is an acceptable tradeoff for learning
vapid ledge
i mean realistically bot game is roughly the only way i get to play the way i default to/want to and not have too bad of a time
in that i want to sample each hero across the board and not drill into any specific role
reef parcel
so you wanna slice the apple based on your morale kinda
glossy stratus
I think there's a sweet spot of playing against people a bit better than you
reef parcel
and how much your team is willing to handle
yeah
like if you feel your friends are simply so much higher than you that you're getting frustrated and not learning anything, maybe it's worth changing things up
glossy stratus
i mean realistically bot game is roughly the only way i get to play the way i de...
(All Random is calling you...)
vapid ledge
which means queueing up pvp games will generally hurt my morale due to how my lack of knowledge of the hero i'm currently playing might cause me be the weak link in the team
reef parcel
but if you feel like you're coming away from stuff learning a lot and you enjoy that dark souls learning loop and your friends are fine with you showing up and fucking up games, that's great. go for it.
vapid ledge
i aram exclusively in league, yeah
paper shell
In a game where you lose 42 to 0 there isn’t anything you can learn from
reef parcel
I disagree
like, it's not like me and all the people I played with as kids were all in the same skill level either, I was introduced to dota by my cousins who were like 10 years older than me
and they actually played wc3 and stuff I was just a child
like you learn if you learn
steel forge
I mean, as someone who was just in a 42 and 0 game (or close to it), I was convinced to more agressively adapt my early item picks to the pressure I was getting in the lane
serene arrow
Jenny pretty much learned in stacks, right? Though I don't know how much she plays
karmic grove
Yeah, you can do thinking as to how you got into that position and how not to in the future, you can practice warding in more hostile territory, keeping track of enemy teammembers, and securing pickoffs
reef parcel
if you come away from a game with a new insight that's the actual measure
steel forge
and then like, I implemented it, and it worked!
reef parcel
yeah jenny strictly learned by stacking with us
steel forge
I dunno it felt cool
reef parcel
she went from total 0 experience newbie to veteran stacking with friends until she's really good now, a solid credit to team at my skill level, in less than a year
vapid ledge
damn
stark linden
I don't play in anything below a 3 stack
And even then I prefer 4+
vapid ledge
jen learned so much faster than me
reef parcel
honestly, as a rule probably don't listen to us veterans on cultural stuff much and just do what comes naturally and you'll probably be fine
in basically every ancient competitive scene I've been a part of there's like two crowds
serene arrow
Dota does have that sixth slot on the team for basically this sort of reason, right?
reef parcel
- millenials like me who've been playing the games for like 20+ years and learned through sheer evolutionary trial by fire and all kinds of nonsense and we're the standard for good play
- totally new zoomers who showed up like a year ago and are now just as good as us because they learned crazy fast by our standards cause they have actual learning tools and structured approaches to picking up the skills and good mentors and good mental
I've seen this in card games, FPSs, RTSs, MOBAs, fighters... etc etc
you kids are pretty good at showing us up
we've all got weird story arcs as to how we got here but just like do what makes sense to you and your sense of learning and you'll probably kick my ass in a year
serene arrow
(and of course there's still bad kids who refuse to learn, haha)
reef parcel
that's true there are
I'm biased, I only hang out with cool kids
kids who end up on pilot net are generally the cool ones
paper shell
I guess I’m trying to impart my I learnt this game not at the start knowledge
stark linden
I'm very much not as good as you at dota
Itemization is still 99% opaque to me
glossy stratus
Dagon: never the right choice, always a fun one
serene arrow
The way I figure I'd be learning items if I had compatible enough timezones to consistently play with the people I want to play is, based on prior experience, Tommy watching me play, telling me what makes sense for me to start working on that isn't just part of the guide, and eventually picking up a sense for it
vapid ledge
lol yeah i half gave up on itemization and relied on external sources like guides
reef parcel
I mean, earlier today one veteran said grimstroke is a solution to manta style and had to be told that's not how it works
serene arrow
That's just kinda an ecosystem thing you either need to study outside of the game itself or have people actively helping you with, I think
vapid ledge
or if i do play pvp, which means in a stack, i'd just ask vc
glossy stratus
They've also added so many items
vapid ledge
at some point i start to wonder if i want to experiment force staff instead of blink on slardar
karmic grove
I didn't realise manta does a dispel, useful to know in the future since I play venom a fair bit
serene arrow
like yeah I don't think it's bad for the newbies at all to learn as part of stacks, the thing I'd be more worried about is actually frustrating the veterans?
vapid ledge
just so i don't start yelling "ok i'm going i.... nvm i got autoattacked my blink turned off"
serene arrow
Which is a purely social thing and not about the learning curve of the game at all, it's a bit more complicated
Messing up the matchmaking for them and such
stark linden
like yeah I don't think it's bad for the newbies at all to learn as part of stac...
I trust Ashley to communicate that 
serene arrow
Oh for sure, but in the abstract, as "what is the actual problem with a player learning through stacking with more experienced players"
'cause I don't think it's bad for learning, at all
reef parcel
I didn't realise manta does a dispel, useful to know in the future since I play ...
worth noting this only matters for your shard
venomous gale, poison sting and poison nova are all undispellable afaik?
glossy stratus
Manta, Satanic, Eul's, and Lotus are the big dispel items
reef parcel
latent toxicity absolutely fucks dispels
glossy stratus
Gale is dispellable I thought
paper shell
Manta, Satanic, Eul's, and Lotus are the big dispel items
Greaves
reef parcel
which is where you have to pay attention
karmic grove
worth noting this only matters for your shard
Yeah, but its a good indicator for when to aim for shard
glossy stratus
Heck
steel forge
yeah like, as one of the newbies ™️ if my gameplay is dragging people down, I have faith in the folks here to like. tell me and play games without me going forward
reef parcel
Yeah, but its a good indicator for when to aim for shard
aha yes you got it
vapid ledge
guardian greaves has a dispelling component to its active?
reef parcel
if you put latent toxicity on a carry and they manta, they're fucked
excellent thinking
paper shell
guardian greaves has a dispelling component to its active?
Yes
glossy stratus
Self only
vapid ledge
i should read more often
stark linden
We played a game with Cecile
And she went puck mid
On her first ever PvP game
serene arrow
lmao
glossy stratus
How does manta interact with latent toxicity? Are you invulnerable when the stun would pop?
serene arrow
I'm not sure if going mid as a newbie is genius or extremely foolish
stark linden
It's very much a thing where you go in with some expectations about the newbies performance
And you try and play around that
stark linden
I'm not sure if going mid as a newbie is genius or extremely foolish
Yes
serene arrow
Like, no other player to worry about sharing or not sharing gold with, just try and play good in a vacuum and don't die (but probably die a lot)
reef parcel
How *does* manta interact with latent toxicity? Are you invulnerable when the st...
I think the stun is applied before they go invulnerable, but I'll have to test this to make sure - I'm not confident in this
glossy stratus
Going mid as a newbie means you learn laning mechanics very quickly
reef parcel
I'm pretty sure I've used it before on mantas successfully
vapid ledge
welp, i am now craving dota again
serene arrow
I got sorta encouraged into playing 1:s and 2:s back when I tried playing, which I'm not sure if that was really the best, but people thought it'd fit me
glossy stratus
That would make sense since I think they would be immune to the dispel if it happened during the invuln
karmic grove
welp, i am now craving dota again
dota moment
glossy stratus
But then again dota's a game of exceptions
reef parcel
I think manta's sequence is: basic dispel, disjoint projectiles, exit the map, 0.1 seconds, re-enter the map with illusions
viscid tapir
How *does* manta interact with latent toxicity? Are you invulnerable when the st...
you still get stunned and take damage
karmic grove
thanks tom
reef parcel
and you're exiled from the map and flickered back still stunned and having taken the damage
stark linden
It very much depends on what you wanna do Alex
I love playing support and enabling fights or saving people
glossy stratus
Did they increase the exit duration at some point?
serene arrow
(conversations like this I do start understanding the comparisons people make between Dota and Dominions, which otherwise seems like the weirdest comparison possible)
stark linden
So 4-5 is natural for me
vapid ledge
dominions the card game?
serene arrow
no, a 4x wargame, the card game has no S in it
steel forge
(conversations like this I do start understanding the comparisons people make be...
oh yeah no I get that
vapid ledge
ah
reef parcel
I'm not sure if going mid as a newbie is genius or extremely foolish
till generally likes sending newbies into core roles, I think it kinda fits into that learning <---> fun axis
serene arrow
yeah, I think that's fair
reef parcel
the more responsibility you have and the more you have to do, the more you're going to lose and learn
serene arrow
Don't let the newbies wallflower
steel forge
where exactly is the line between core and support?
vapid ledge
that and generally it does seem like supports might benefit more from overall play experience?
like being able to remember timings
reef parcel
I think till's perspective is that like... it's very easy to know when you've played a bad carry
it's hard to know when you've played a bad support
not warding well isn't very obvious
glossy stratus
I think it's also good for newbies to play cores since IMO it's easier to learn support after playing core than vice versa
reef parcel
getting murdered in a teamfight and realizing you needed to have twice as much money is very obvious
there are clear metrics for getting good and doing your job
glossy stratus
It's easier to see what you want your supports to do when you're playing a core, since what they're doing pretty directly impacts what you can do
reef parcel
like, @near plank is a new player who is learning and sticking with 2. and she knows when she's got a hill to climb because she loses her lane hard and that's something she can crunch on
stark linden
Idk
I've built up a feel for how well I'm doing as 4/5 pretty quick
reef parcel
yeah I learned on 4/5 myself
I just enjoy the style a lot
you have a big gun
it's less stat focused play
karmic grove
Its a cool style
reef parcel
I don't like stat focused play as much as Big Gun play
stark linden
It let's me slow down and focus one thing at a time
glossy stratus
I just like the offlane, let me do my rotations and big ultis and I'm a happy camper
Whether 3 or 4
stark linden
You can't really slow down as a core
That's how you lose the game
reef parcel
even OD is someone I secretly like because behind the big stat attacks he has a cool Big Gun
which is astral prison
stasis locking friends and enemies is eternally interesting to me
steel forge
yeah, learning 3 has like
karmic grove
I like the split focus of keeping track of bounty runes/wisdom runes, when to pull, when to ward, remembering to stack all while keeping up a decent fight presence
steel forge
let me know when I'm doing badly
glossy stratus
You should try Midwrath Mage, he feels very fancy when you're doing well
steel forge
it's also honestly like. not that complex
glossy stratus
And has the biggest of guns
steel forge
you just kinda farm, pick items well, do teamfights okay
serene arrow
yeah idk if I try learning again I might honestly try and go for 3 a lot
karmic grove
Always feel s like there's something I could be doing better at which is a good motivator for me
steel forge
it's certainly not simple but it's not a million things to think about
glossy stratus
Yeah, trickiest bit of 3 is knowing how to move after the laning phase ends, and that's nice because it's something that applies to every hero
Just to 3/4 the most, kind of?
serene arrow
Having a second person in your lane does sound nice in theory but in the tiny moment-to-moment gameplay decisions, I think, it's more distracting than anything (for me, personally), so I think my ideal learning experience would be as pos3 while a coach occasionally looks my way?
yeah
karmic grove
I do think I want to practice pos1 a bit, too. Get a better idea of things from the other end of the spectrum.
reef parcel
As a mid point between veteran play and solo queue - you guys can totally stack together too and have a great time
Lots of newbies here now
I encourage you guys to network and hang out
Tron, punch, osh, izen, etc
There's more than enough of you to form big coordinated stacks while still playing in your skill level
Which is great
vapid ledge
we have a LOT of newbies who favor pos 3 i just realized
reef parcel
That's honestly very very educational
And you have players interested in playing 1, 4, 3, etc
You've got a good spread
vapid ledge
i do need to return osh an evening where i pick support instead of 3
gritty sparrow
My hot take is you should always go for the sick manta dodge on projectiles
I had a game where a Huskar got aghs and kept trying to ult me and I manta dodged it twice in a row
glossy stratus
This is the real reason Blink Dagger is the best item
Fancy disjoints are the most satisfying thing in Dota
karmic grove
The most satisfying thing for me is always disabling a carry when they're trying to do some cool stuff
tfw you heaven's halberd/ethereal blade an ursa and they just sit around looking dumb for a few seconds
viscid tapir
Fancy disjoints are the most satisfying thing in Dota
and this is why Sproink is the best ability in dota
glossy stratus
tfw you heaven's halberd/ethereal blade an ursa and they just sit around looking...
Disarming a Void during Chrono 
(As the Void, the only correct response is to use the bonus move speed to run circles around your target until the disarm ends)
vapid ledge
errrr
man things got out of hand in this bot game lmao
picked enchantress intending to 5
5 minutes in, my luna just permanently fucked off from dire top
me: fukkit we roam
ganked and pushed hard on mid lane
then just did whatever the fuck i wanted evidently
i don't think i supported right (outside drumming when pushing)
also holy shit enchantress wisps heal hard
granted, by 'playing 5' all i ended up doing is right clicking on drow and WD hoping luna can farm
karmic grove
Yup, from vids I've watched some people stick two points in it while laning before maxing enchant just because the jump from level 1 wisp to 2 is so big
Its like double the heal iirc
vapid ledge
it's REALLY haha green bar go up
karmic grove
enchantress looks cool, unit control just looks a bit daunting
vapid ledge
that's the fun part, same spell as unit control is also used as a attack speed slow
manic nimbus
I think the most satisfying thing in dota is really slick initiates
for me
and tree jukes
though those are a lot harder in dota2
the times when both teams are kinda a bit dancing around and you just jump in and absolutely yoink their carry and everyone beats on them and their team decides to just pull back
steel forge
bot games may not be the most representative practice lmao
keen patrol
I think the problem with learning in a 5 stack with folks that are very good is that you lose a lot of games and that losing those games is often directly your fault
And that's a terrible way to learn to enjoy a game
steel forge
Unfair bots are the way to go
yeah I certainly need to play against more difficult bots
steel forge
And that's a terrible way to learn to enjoy a game
Also just to this, personally I disagree? like. I don't mind losing, I don't mind it being my fault
And of the dota games I've lost 80% have been fun on the back foot
paper shell
Part of why I like bot games a lot is they’re a good way to be comfortable with the hero and give you time to read the build guide you’re hopefully following
Torte de Lini’s guides have an explanation on every item in a general sense as to why you’d want to buy it as well as a good explanation on what your skills are used for
As well as oftentimes some combos too
reef parcel
I think if you enjoy the experience of learning while losing and your teammates enjoy playing with you then yeah go for it. If you don't enjoy it try other stuff
paper shell
Immortal faith usually has less good explanations in general but they’re more specific
reef parcel
I definitely think bot games are like the best place to just learn how to manage the courier
Simple control stuff
paper shell
Before I’ll ever pick a hero in a real game I make sure to have played it at least once in a bot game
What are my escape options of if I get caught out?
What are my cc choices if I catch someone out
How do I land my skill shot
What’s the timing for the eules combo
It goes a little further than simple control stuff
It’s also a great place to practice stuff like creep aggro
And pull timing and stack timing
Denying
The unfair bots while not perfect and, they do some wacky stuff are quite good at last hitting and punishing you when your out of position
I’ll admit bot games trying to play support role doesn’t work very well
However in a co-op bot game it can
They’re also super good for learning rune control when mid as one of the wacky things they do is all tp for rune times
keen patrol
Also just to this, personally I disagree? like. I don't mind losing, I don't min...
I find it's really hard to learn anything when you are dead all the time for reasons you don't understand. Like, I like dota, and obviously with random folks you are way way more likely to experience toxicity, but playing with folks with 2k+ hours means you are going to be hindering the team
And it's hard not to think "wow, everyone would be having a much nicer time if I wasn't playing" even though that's still not true
I do think this was probably also because of playing support, since "what should I be doing?" is a lot harder of a question to answer for a support, and being bad at support tends to make it so your team has no vision and therefore can't recover as well
steel forge
Torte de Lini’s guides have an explanation on every item in a general sense as t...
Those are the ones I follow and Im a big fan
steel forge
I find it's really hard to learn anything when you are dead all the time for rea...
Maybe Im just having a very different experience playing core rather than support, but Im not sure
paper shell
I really liked tort until I really understood itemization better then I swapped to immortal faith as his builds are less rigid and I can just sort of pick what items are appropriate to my specific situation
stark linden
ye valid, im starting to slowly learn to make changes in itemization myself
paper shell
I also typically like his skill builds more than torts too
paper shell
Oh yeah absolutely
I don’t like immortal faiths Mirana guide
I also don’t like tortes
weary flax
At some point, I should practice playing with you all
karmic grove
I'll be about today for dotes when we get around to it
Want to try a bit of pos1ing
reef parcel
At some point, I should practice playing with you all
if you've never played dota before, I recommend poking at the tutorials (they got fixed) and trying a bot game. like there's just so much to get used to even before you deal with other players at all
glossy stratus
that's the fun part, same spell as unit control is also used as a attack speed s...
Fyi Enchant is also a dispel, which can be really really strong against some heroes
You can remove half of Dark Seer's entire kit
(Also removes runes, which can be a game changer for catching Hasted people)
weary flax
if you've never played dota before, I recommend poking at the tutorials (they go...
I've done the initial tutorials and at least one bot match, so far. I could easily do more to try and get more used to things.
reef parcel
oh that's great. yeah maybe? your call at this point
there's a decent chunk of newbies you can play with too
tron, punch, oshlet, izen + you is a 5 stack
vapid ledge
i'll be on a 5-day trip starting tomorrow so today will be the only "fresh" day i can join the newby 5 stack
manic nimbus
I do bot games a bit to test mechanics and do things
like trying to practice with invoker doing tornado -> sunstrike -> meatball -> deafening blast
glossy stratus
I should play some 4 NP
manic nimbus
3.5 NP it always ends up being I find 😛
glossy stratus
Shhhh I like my plausible deniability
OTOH he's kind of a 4.5 since he's a natural warder
So really, it averages out to 4
glossy stratus
You're not wrong
gritty sparrow
Every time I am farming a camp and I see his ult perfectly last hit all the creeps I want to report him
manic nimbus
yes
glossy stratus
Ah but that ult was definitely crucial to, er... disable their blinks! Definitely!
cursive wing
Ah but that ult was definitely crucial to, er... disable their blinks! Definitel...
It fixes the lanes
gritty sparrow
Or better yet, a random ult that doesn't do anything but reveal where all our observer wards are
Love that one
glossy stratus
Okay but the counterpart to that is intentionally ulting when your ward is seconds away from expiring
gritty sparrow
Ok that is funny
glossy stratus
And coming in later to see 4 sentries down
manic nimbus
Okay but the counterpart to that is intentionally ulting when your ward is secon...
I wish that happened, but its just people firing it off cooldown to farm I find
glossy stratus
That's the main reason I don't random much any more lol
Happy to get any hero that doesn't require micro
gritty sparrow
I on one hand understand better why Chen is so strong when played correctly
On the other hand please never again
I do not want to play neopets
glossy stratus
I'm pretty sure even in pro play Chen and Ench are only used at like 60% of their potential
stark linden
lol
gritty sparrow
We beat their ass super hard and I would rather just lose while playing Rubick
vapid ledge
man despite playing pos3 recently
i'm still iffy on identifying opponent overextension
you'd think tha'ts something even playing bot games would be able to help me accumulate experience in
manic nimbus
its a pretty complicated and contextual thing tbf
reef parcel
I think killzone analysis is like, the hardest moment to moment skill in the game and maybe like the key gestalt skill that ties the entirety of dota together
it's dota's version of fighting game neutral
you're never gonna finally solve neutral
when I'm coaching new players sometimes I rapidly draw and redraw little lines on the ground showing how far I think they can go before they're gonna die, and that line is always moving, and it's 2D, and it kinda also depends on what you assume is out in the places you cannot see, and in a moment that line can invert because suddenly you're in a position of power not them and they need to get away from you
like putting down pieces on a go board until an asphyxiating group becomes the strangler
weary flax
Does this mostly involve understanding spacing?
manic nimbus
and just knowing what each hero can do at the current items, level, etc
reef parcel
yeah of course. like. everything. is your friend telling you they're coming through the lane gate? well shit maybe everything is different
are you puck? then maybe your threat zones are entirely different from everyone else's and you're safer the more embedded you are in the enemy team cause you can keep silencing that one support with the hex
glossy stratus
That's why Blink Dagger is so fantastic, it's an item that changes those zones drastically
weary flax
I'm do need to eventually figure what sort of role would fit me best
reef parcel
steel forge
what is that clip from?
cursive wing
There's a lot of situations where an opponent will be out of position for only half a second and if you try to engage a second too late you just die
vapid ledge
damn, didn't remember jumper having this good of a punch
cursive wing
And as you go up in rank your mistakes that you didn't know were mistakes will get you killed
vapid ledge
but my current problem is as a blink carrier i am not good at not getting blink locked prematurely
cursive wing
A lot of stuff that won me games in crusader got me liked in legend
cursive wing
but my current problem is as a blink carrier i am not good at not getting blink ...
Shield damage doesn't prevent blink
gritty sparrow
Huh, apparently Jenkins put out one of his tier list videos and put the 4 he thinks is best as Nature's Prophet
willow topaz
I think killzone analysis is like, the hardest moment to moment skill in the gam...
yea, fully agree with this
gritty sparrow
Which is unfortunate I don't want to see more in my game
vapid ledge
as in if i take damage on shield health, it doesn't turn blink off?
willow topaz
identifying where you're safe to stand is so so so big esp as a support and it changes drastically with the heroes in the game and itemization
cursive wing
as in if i take damage on shield health, it doesn't turn blink off?
Yep. So if you have pipe you can walk under sniper shrapnel for a moment
vapid ledge
yeah i'm thinking towards me playing support wrt talking about my inability to see overextension, recalling my pos3 experience since that's most of my recent pvp games
and this is kind of a thing i intend to do as a support: to punish overextension
glossy stratus
but my current problem is as a blink carrier i am not good at not getting blink ...
The key here is if you're blinking in, they don't have a chance to disable it
(Blinking out is a lot harder)
vapid ledge
oh yeah i was talking about taking damage pre-blinking in
i'm still at the heavy telegraph period
glossy stratus
Ah, yeah, that's mostly just a matter of vision usually
They can't hit you if they can't see you (some exceptions may apply)
reef parcel
what is that clip from?
oh, the jumper movie, really ancient terrible teen prettyboy action movie stuff from when I was a kid and didn't realize I thought guys were hot I just thought the movie was Neat
vapid ledge
cause when i played tide, i get no good ult cause intention is to blink in and ult but got scratched on the way to blinking in
glossy stratus
So blinking from high ground/out of trees/over cliffs are all good plans
steel forge
oh, the jumper movie, really ancient terrible teen prettyboy action movie stuff ...
ohh jumper yeah okay
vapid ledge
and as slardar i VIVIDLY remember a missed blink W due to the same mistake
and it weighs on me...
glossy stratus
It happens to everyone, dw
vapid ledge
granted, that's partially why i also play underlord
glossy stratus
There have been more than a few "Echo... slam?"s in pro Dota
vapid ledge
overlord?
glossy stratus
midlord
vapid ledge
孽主, whatever his english name is
glossy stratus
(Underlord)
vapid ledge
it's honestly pretty interesting observation where in league when i support, i tend to favor party buffer rather than CC monsters
but when it comes to dota, all i can think about is big CCs
glossy stratus
If they didn't want offlaners to do big ultis they shouldn't have made big ultis so satisfying
Earthshaker is 10/10 sound design
paper shell
landing a 5 man black hole 😩
vapid ledge
lol in my company dota games i landed a 9 man chronosphere
steel forge
I adore sand king's just, very mean CC
vapid ledge
almost got too excited to do anything afterwareds
paper shell
Technically if you're in the sphere, its a 10 man
vapid ledge
oh one of the enemy team members died
i did count myself
man i kinda start to look forward to trying out pos 5 again
just need to make myself notes on spawn timings
probably a physical post-it note
partially cause for pos 5 i'm way more likely to be using force staff instead of blink
glossy stratus
I don't think I follow with how force staff relates to timings
It's reasonable to get force staff on 3 btw
vapid ledge
sry, didn't explain my train of thought
steel forge
what's like. the point of force staff
vapid ledge
3s i play tend to be melee strength heroes who benefit less from force staff
steel forge
is it just to huck away powerful enemies or?
glossy stratus
what's like. the point of force staff
Repositioning that doesn't get disabled by damage and can be applied to others
vapid ledge
and i enjoy the wider application of force staff of using on self/teammate for rescue/help with initiation, or using on enemy to fuck over overextention
glossy stratus
Using it to save allies is hugw
vapid ledge
at this point i might as well invest in learning earth spirit
glossy stratus
3s i play tend to be melee strength heroes who benefit less from force staff
Ahh, gotcha
vapid ledge
bounced back last time due to complexity
glossy stratus
Fwiw the int from Force tends to be quite nice on a lot of 3s, they often have mana issues
willow topaz
what's like. the point of force staff
super traditional force staff thing is kiting like an ursa or a sven and preventing their carry from doing their output until the fight is already decided
glossy stratus
About the same price I believe
vapid ledge
50 gold difference with blink being more expensive
willow topaz
Fwiw the int from Force tends to be quite nice on a lot of 3s, they often have m...
force staff active is super expensive nowadays, though, so you're probably giving up as much as you gain if you intend to actually cast it?
glossy stratus
Oh right, it's like what, 150 mana?
willow topaz
yea
vapid ledge
150 per cast for 120 mana gained via attributes
yeah i'll have to balance that for sure
glossy stratus
Wasn't it 25 mana before? Whoof
willow topaz
yea, and way longer cast range too
I think at some point they decided (justifiably) that this item was way too good
glossy stratus
Yeah lol
vapid ledge
wait who the hell was i maining before switching to slardar... investigating
glossy stratus
Same reason Atos is no lomger instant with a bonkers cast range, alas
vapid ledge
ah ok underlord and tide
viscid tapir
as in if i take damage on shield health, it doesn't turn blink off?
this is why I think Block of Cheese should unironically be a consideration for important blink initiators
willow topaz
this is why I think Block of Cheese should unironically be a consideration for i...
absolutely massive brain, very into it
how many of the smallest healing things do you need to pick up for it though, again?
viscid tapir
18
vapid ledge
18
willow topaz
hmmm
vapid ledge
which is a lot
viscid tapir
you can lock combining on them
willow topaz
yea... ;;
viscid tapir
and they stay in a single stack
vapid ledge
wait wdym?
if you lock combining on small lotus do you not create a new big lotus upon 4th stack?
glossy stratus
If you right click on items you can lock combining (which is useful if you don't want to build items but have its components), it works on lotuses
Yep
vapid ledge
tech noted
stark linden
I am done with work and around to dota
karmic grove
I'm also around
glossy stratus
Likewise
steel forge
I could dota
vapid ledge
in a few minutes, confirming if we hold our daily meeting today or not
reef parcel
till and I may be around for a later game o/
gritty sparrow
and it's like still pretty good even now so they were presumably right
Imo I still think force staff is the best overall support item
reef parcel
you guys seem to have a 5 stack already
stark linden
104289215
glossy stratus
We might be able to get two 5 stacks
gritty sparrow
There are games for euls, there are games for lotus, there are games for solar crest, there is every game where force staff is good
manic nimbus
I think one glimmer a team is very rarely bad
willow topaz
There are games for euls, there are games for lotus, there are games for solar c...
I mostly agree, force staff is just great, but I do think the range to allies nerfs hurt a lot after a world of range bonus and long starting range, you actually have to endanger yourself to use it a lot more now than you use to
gritty sparrow
True, I thankfully don't feel it as much cause my main support is rubick.
willow topaz
ah, fair
steel forge
why does this bane taunt give him cheese
stark linden
hes cheesed to meet you