Undertale and Deltarune

[strange cloud]

It just makes us look crazy

Not that we aren’t

But people don’t need to know that

[ripe harbor]

I do think its interesting that all the little Dark Gribblies start to signal-distort when they get hurt though

that actually does seem a little important

[strange cloud]

Yah it is neat how the damaged sprite is a sonogram

[ripe harbor]

'Lost' girl like a 'Lost' signal

at least thats what it makes me start thinking of

[crimson badger]

I wonder whether the loss is because of the Noise of Possibility (too much dark), or being Stuck Inbetween (neither dark nor light), brain's been going back to the liminal point in the dark world explanation, when you're darker than dark, but still not in the Dark

[ripe harbor]

both seem like they're involved

[crimson badger]

hmmm

being in a state inbetween until you're almost fully subsumed into the background, then forcibly pulled out of that state and forced through an impression of you, what's left from there being filled out by another's experience?

[ripe harbor]

The chapter 4 egg room & the weird philosophy guy probably are connected

(So they started again, drawing over the lines they had already made.)
(Many times, they would suddenly halt, or the pencil drifted into a new drawing...)
(So, they started over, over, over again.)

(Through many repetitions, their movements became faster and smoother...)
(... until without looking, they had completed a sketch in a single, wild line.)

(...)

(In the end, as a result of layering the sketches on top of each other...)
(... The surface of the canvas was nothing more than a monochrome smear.)```

... though, it would be a lie if I said I understood it!```

if this isn't just poetic language or Kris specific, it could fit the Knight I think

https://tenor.com/view/roaring-knight-the-roaring-knight-deltarune-gif-2379314481460912501

"A trace, repeated"

I didnt realize this gif had the text above it 💀

[crimson badger]

lmao

yeah, the knight lens + current brain just paints a peachy picture of just

being brought back again and again and again and again

but not quite not quite not quite not quite

[ripe harbor]

like if the Knight is an 'almost right' sketch of Dess, but it wasn't exactly right

so they just got layered and layered and layered over each other

only the most consistent design things would pop out

only the bits of the signal that are in every version would be clear

antlers, a bat, general body shape...

🤷‍♂️

[crimson badger]

I see it I see it

under this idea and making assumptions on the conspiracy and the promise, could also point towards Kris having a direct involvement in the Knight's Genesis. The knight is damn cool and full of style, but damn if the bat knife hurts when it lands

[rain lotus]

sega genesis

[crimson badger]

the ideas that we don't think of but that stay with us painting the picture, making themselves more and more aparent with each layer

colored in with care

[ripe harbor]

idk if I have any particular speculation about the knights origin or any of that

but its interesting that all this is going down this week in the story

Dess has been missing for ages- why now?

Was the knight around and just. like. aurafarming in the Nothing?

Did they find their way back this week- did they become the Knight this week?

cause it doesn't seem fun for them lol

https://tenor.com/view/knight-roaring-knight-deltarune-boss-gif-4552315353866418347

[serene loom]

part of my theory is that the Knight is an instrument of the Prophecy moreso than others

[crimson badger]

yeah, I feel like speculations on the knights origin's feel like sorta long shots as is, I feel that this could be an origin under this liminality idea, but the timing is quite a pickle it feels

[ripe harbor]

that kinda kicks the can down the road- why is the prophecy 'starting'? Is it all just based around the Player / Soul finally getting 'connected'?

[serene loom]

ah see thats another part

[ripe harbor]

because that implies that pretty much everyone whos involved has a better understanding of the Soul than we do

[serene loom]

i think that the specific actors (The Heroes, The Roaring Knight) are not actually specific people (Kris, Susie, Ralsei, Dess) except when all relevant parties are available to be used by the Prophecy

and that a previous set of people were available around the time of Dess's disappearance and her disappearance interrupted the prophecy (probably very early on) so it reset

^

also this

[sharp lodge]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1288775499480563845/1420438247208779826/Download.mp4?ex=68d565b4&is=68d41434&hm=0dd35da348ce080095e4006e01c453c911dc9ce388ed7a62b6e596929f73e8d2&

[lusty cypress]

Maybe he was a book left in the closet

[low surge]

They’re shipping Glyde and Mr Sunshine

I’m here for it

[lusty cypress]

Thinking about Yan from ruina led to me think of people explaining irrational numbers to Susie

[inland hare]

What are the r odds of dark world enveloping the town festival

[sour mesa]

High imo

[ripe harbor]

near confirmed imo

'Halloween' is a pretty great time to have some sort of apocalyptic blurring of the boundaries of worlds

Samhain marked the end of the harvest season and beginning of winter or the 'darker half' of the year. It was seen as a liminal time, when the boundary between this world and the Otherworld thinned, allowing the Aos Sí, 'spirits' or 'fairies', to more easily come into this world and stay particularly active.

plus it fits pretty well into the fiction or escapism theme

Town festivals or holidays already blur the lines between fantasy and normal life

Its already sort of a big performance

so there'd be some strong resonance for 'dreams / fiction / nightmares swallowing up the real world' happening at the same time

[ripe harbor]

but I think its not gonna be a normal dark world so much as the roaring starting while the festival is happening

[inland hare]

in chapter 5 toby fox will come personally to your house to stab u

[ripe harbor]

lore implications??!?!?

why would chara make them do that

[inland hare]

because we learned nothing in the past ten years

i love chara/narrator chiding us that way lmfao

[ripe harbor]

its so funny they GOT your ass if you did it

"I just wanted to know what would happen" you got GOT

[low surge]

Chara fans no longer the most starving portion of the fandom

Jevil fans found shot dead in Atlanta

[ripe harbor]

He got a plush lmao he's doing alright

He's mentioned nearly every chapter too, I think

Ramb fans are actually entirely cooked though

I think the tough thing about Jevil is that his narrative position is, literally, freedom-through-irrelevance

[inland hare]

Yeah

While spamton wants to become so big that he becomes free

[ripe harbor]

even then, it turns out he was important to the main plot by being the person to explain the Knight to King

[ripe harbor]

yeah, and from a writing standpoint its a lot harder to miss Spamton's quest

You start it by sparing him in a mandatory encounter, and like
Toby Fox knows what most players are doing in their playthroughs lol

its set up to be optional, but placed right there where the majority of the playerbase is going to start it

I don't think its a coincidence that the two easiest Secret Bosses (Spamton and Gerson) have the most obvious triggers for their fights, and the absolute hardest one (The Knight) is the most hidden

like imagine if the Chapter 5 secret boss needs to you to win a specific fight through violence instead of sparing

way more people would miss it accidentally

[crystal shale]

They turned Toby into a marketable plushie

[low surge]

I think Jevil fans are just wanting the same level of visibility and plot relevance Spamton gets

Which like fair we all want our blorbo to be on display

[analog burrow]

perhaps the next dark world will have some games of chance to rouse him from his 100 year slumber

[low surge]

Susie takes Jevil to the casino dark world

[analog burrow]

https://tenor.com/view/deltarune-jevil-dice-gif-7710331722023080621

[ripe harbor]

they might get a half-win when Seam locks tf in?

I could see Seam as a Big Deal boss in the Weird Route. Maybe in normal routes too, though the motives seem more ???

pulling out some Fate-Wizard bullshit as you try to break it

"Essential for ripping out a misaligned stitch"

not sure if theres any other new big characters you can really introduce with a strong tie to Jevil

Besides whoever spoke to him, but that seems hard to make about Jevil without whoever that is overshadowing him

its not like Asgore 'The Flower Man' can have a prior relationship with him lol
you could probably fit in something with Seam though

[ripe harbor]

lmao first thing I see

[rain lotus]

seams deltarune

mfw they pull out megalobania again

me when the weird route boss has the freedom + megaalbania + lost girl motifs and society crumbles

[ripe harbor]

The other blog songs she listens to are "Raise Up Your Bat" and "GLACEIR" so- possible chance we get "No Cats" lol

[rain lotus]

cats
oh god. oh god oh man. oh god oh MAN

[ripe harbor]

The Ominous Noelle Holiday Freedom Motif Quote:

[rain lotus]

suspiciously battle sprite shaped sketch

[ripe harbor]

Toby did say he liked the purple soul mode (the most?) during the 10th

Seams got that whole stitching thing going on

& theres gotta be at least one hype Cat Boss Fight

[low surge]

Soul Order fans in SHAMBLES

[strange cloud]

I can’t believe Toby is wrong about his own game

Insane

[crimson badger]

Its time to take the reins then. It'll be our Deltarune now.

Wait what do you mean this was expected and desired

[timber widget]

This honestly made me briefly believe he would never actually finish DR

[strange cloud]

That may be to much lol

[crimson badger]

I believe tricky tony could pull off the "now its your turn" gambit but something like that would require something next level, or the game to have been released all in one chunk and not have years of expectations building up

[strange cloud]

Yah like, especially when his inspiration for Deltarune is him dreaming up an ending

Like, he talked about this when the game first launched

[crimson badger]

its so beyond delicate as a maneuver that I think it'll go more towards an exploration/refutation of one single canon in favor of everyone's interpretation

oh right the fever dream

I forget the fever dream

[strange cloud]

It would kinda betray all the stuff he’s said about why he made Deltarune to begin with if we never get to see that ending

[crimson badger]

yeah no actually, can't not keep it in mind because even if projects evolve, for an idea to sink its hooks into you so hard it sets your priorities towards its fulfillment and hounds you for years it has to be something that wants to show itself

[strange cloud]

Yah

[sage needle]

I think whatever the DeltaRune ending is going to be it's not going to be the heroes lose the world is destroyed. There has been way too much focus on writing your own story for whatever the ending to be to kill off must of the characters

It'll have to be satisfying but not so satisfying that people don't want to see things continue

[inland hare]

i think it'll be bittersweet

at least for some people

i don't see a happy ending for sans

[sage needle]

Yeah

[inland hare]

or the Heart

we will move on to the next world

allowing Kris and Susie and Noelle to go on without us in the world we saved together or smth

this is the only way it could have ended

after all

we can't let out knife hands grow too dull by staying in this world

[strange cloud]

I think really it’s just like, I do think there will be bittersweet elements

But I really cannot imagine Toby “Games as therapy” Fox writing a truly sad ending

[inland hare]

yeah

it'll be heartwarming with some threads left unresolved

[strange cloud]

Like, maybe this is parasocial but he’s expressed his views about art enough that I don’t think that’s his style

[sage needle]

Does this look like a sad writer?

[strange cloud]

I think whatever happens, the characters will live on, in one form or another

And there will be a tomorrow for them

and it won’t just create undertale

[strange cloud]

Exactly

That’s a smile you can trust to give your blorbos a good ending

[sage needle]

I love this image so much

I cracked up everytime it showed up on the stream

[rain lotus]

my partner and i think it'll be a mother 3 thing

just b.c. there were similar themes there and carlos wolf LOOOOOVES mother

[clear frost]

people keep theorizing that the end will require the dark worlds to be permanently destroyed, but like...THE PROPHECY SAYS WORLDS

[ripe harbor]

I think at least part of the normal ending will be tragic enough to underline a temptation for doing Weird Route

and that sort of implies major character death to me, nothing else really seems as tragic?

or something as bad as death, or worse

Though I'm not sure it will be presented that tragically, it might be a happier ending that still includes a major character death

Mother 3 is an overall optimistic ending, imo, but Claus still doesn't make it out

at least I think whatever the words Susie punched at the end of Chapter 4 said, they'll come to pass in the normal route. Though who knows how the specifics will play out.

[analog burrow]

Mr. Evrart is helping me draw dog food

[low surge]

I do wonder if the parallel indicates Dess dying. I could at the very least see whatever comes back isn’t exactly Dess anymore. Then again why would Susie react so strongly if she’s never met Dess? Even accounting for her feelings for Noelle it definitely indicates something regarding the main cast of Lightners and darkeners

[low surge]

My money is still personally on something happening to Ralsei but I’m open to other interpretations

[ripe harbor]

the way his title-description is 'records The Fate' makes me feel like he's a bystander to tragedy

compared to 'carries out The Fate' for Susie and Kris

he'll be there, and he'll see it happen

but the others are more 'involved'

also, strangely, Ralsei seems fated to be violent in some way

He's been trying to avoid the final prophecy through non-violence this entire time (so the prophecy is something he would expect that to subvert) & he has this sort of defeatist 'If I have to fight....' to equipping the PuppetScarf

literal strings-of-fate

& Noelle is clearly going into the meatgrinder in some way

at least emotionally

especially since, however the weird route diverges from the prophecy, its centered entirely around her. Her being different at a specific point is how the prophecy breaks in that route, it looks like.

[sharp lodge]

i've said this before but i think a big part of the weird route is gonna be replacing susie with noelle

which is why only the chapters with her in it have weird route stuff (except chapter 1 i guess)

https://old.rxddit.com/r/Undertale/comments/1nqvxo9/thank_you_toby_fox_for_inspiring_me/?ref=share&ref_source=link

[rain lotus]

susie's title changes to her own unique one when she gets the axe

"faces the fate"

this is part of my frisk-susie comparison too because frisk also faced the consequences of "the fate" in undertale

[lusty cypress]

Face the fate, build the future

Face the fate, save freedom

[restive comet]

The bit with Spamton during part 1 of the anniversary stream makes me wonder if some Darkners can persist in the light world

[restive comet]

I suppose another thought is how the Blackshard you get from The Roaring Knight persists in the light world too, making me wonder if any Darkner holding a Shadow Crystal could retain their form if they leave The Dark World somehow, probably with their fountain still intact

Considering that the crystals are also from The Roaring Knight

[glacial ibex]

https://youtu.be/wsvHvAz7SA0

[rain lotus]

what makes you say that. the shadow crystals turn into glass in the light world

the blackshard which demonstrably is from the knight specifically is different

[restive comet]

Didn't Gerson say that The Knight put his crystal in his desk?

[strange cloud]

He said someone

Never specified who

Could be a few people

[ripe harbor]

Ralsei actually also shares 'faces the fate' as his title the whole way through, which is sort of darkly funny once susie swaps over

Everybody ready and dedicated to try and prevent the tragic ending. And also Kris.

[ripe harbor]

yeah he's coy about it to the point you could reasonably assume they're different

He saw the knight fly through, and recognizes them on description later- but he just has feeling someone wanted him to use the crystal

which he just found on his desk

[ripe harbor]

TLDR:

you'd expect Gerson OldMan to specify if the Knight specifically left it in his desk, I think? He speaks about them pretty openly once you give them a name.

Its not even clear if someone left the shadowcrystal for him, or if it just was already in the desk & someone would want him to use it

Did someone leave a crystal in the NEO body?

Did Jevil have his shadow crystal before he was locked away- explicitly before the Knight appeared to create the Card Castle Dark Fountain?

What motive would either the knight or anyone else even have for someone to 'use' them, whatever that means?

[sharp lodge]

idk if the knight gives out shadow crystals
wasn't spamton's in the NEO body? and iirc the knight just left after making the cyber city dark world

[ripe harbor]

Yeah

[sharp lodge]

idk if we can answer that right now
fun to speculate though

[ripe harbor]

The Shadow Crystal was inside the machine

Seam goes on to speculate that the machine might've been really important to someone- a Lightner

with the implied (because of that)

which seems to imply a connection between, idk, dreams? and shadow crystals?

[sharp lodge]

it being so important to a lightner might be how it exists in the dark world
cause not every item becomes a darkner

[ripe harbor]

well especially it'd explain its crazy power

Its called an 'artifact', its seemingly one of the strongest things in Cyber World, it just has a shadow crystal inside it

If someone poured their heart and soul into it, giving an mspaint drawing some sort of transcendent import, I'd buy that as an explanation for all of those

Its not just a doodle, its Mettaton's trashed hopes for having his ideal body, left to rot

but yeah, shadow crystals, very mysterious

Jevil and Spamton don't even mention them at all

Gerson only as a 'weird piece of glass'

and the only two characters who call them "Shadow Crystals" are

• Seam
• Mysterious Shadow Mantle Speaker

who both seem like they know quite a bit more about whats going on

and being dark-associated-glass means its got some some relationship to the Prophecy Glass, and to the dark glass that seems to make up the Knight's armor + sword

[rain barn]

speculating wildly here with zero textual basis: phrased that way, it sounds like it could be like, made real through the prophecy in some way, like an incarnation of it
the knight exists to fulfill the prophetic role of the Knight, and is largely subsumed entirely into that identity

I mean, the knight is directly cutting people and things with glass

[low surge]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UrlAE0SFjFw

Actually cool and good gaster fan theme?!?!?!?

[ripe harbor]

I kinda of expect both to be sort of related to perception

like the dark worlds themselves are shaped by the will of the person bringing them forth, and are described in liquid terms, maybe glass is like a frozen snapshot of someones vision

and looking through them / using them lets you see things another way- or maybe shift what is real according to what you want to see?

The Knight, Jevil, and Spamton Neo all seem to bring their own battlefields with them

[ripe harbor]

big fan of how forlorn this one is

[low surge]

Gaster waltzing alone in the Void

[low surge]

Absolutely

He has to be incredibly lonely

[rain barn]

as does Tenna 🤔

[ripe harbor]

he does have a big-ass glass face lmao

the sound he makes when he's 'cleaved' is the same sound the broken mirror makes in the Z-rank room

shattering glass

Mirrors and reflections and copies and a lot of glass

even the Spawn sputter 'in a voice like crushed glass'

[low surge]

I also really like how elegant and simple it is. I’ve always liked the idea of Gaster as being overly formal and proper. Not even for laughs, played straight. Gaster really be the type of guy to enjoy a fine glass of wine and play classical music. I think it’s a good contrast, even the most serious characters have their silly moments though.

[ripe harbor]

fun Tenna fact: at the end of his fight, when he's cycling like crazy through all the boards and channels,

he always crashes when he hits channel "66"

[ripe harbor]

I really dont know what to expect for Gaster's characterization

all his apperances in DR he's pretty lowkey chill

but the river person in UT warns you of him

Ominously!

[low surge]

His manner of speech strikes me as being kind of stilted, it reminds me of G Man in a way

Like he doesn’t really talk like a normal person would imo

[low surge]

“The man who came from another world” hey river person what the fuck does that mean

[ripe harbor]

I think consensus is Sans

because in UT he says things like

"I gave up trying to go back a long time ago"
"And getting to the surface doesn't really appeal anymore, either"

wherever he's from, its not the underground

and its not the surface

and he's got associations with spacetime nonsense, and Gaster

and ofc now you got

And the 'don't forget' Easter Egg in San's secret science-room, featuring a photograph of "Three smiling people" who Frisk doesn't recognize at all

awesome color scheme

[analog burrow]

regarding the shadow Crystal Talk from earlier, I’ve been of the mind that John Mantle/Nightmare is the one who wants people to use them

The Knight and Kris are scheming something, and the shadow crystals can’t really be part of that scheme if they’re optional

[serene loom]

i was going to say that's homer's muumuu from the episode where he gets extra fat but that one's actually light blue with red flowers

[analog burrow]

I’m still on the “Shadow Crystals come from abandoned dreams” train personally

Mettaton’s body being described as “the embodiment of a lightner’s dream” which was left behind, and Alvin’s abandoned writing career being the two big supporting points

[ripe harbor]

(same, but I didn't want to derail into speculation of who that is)

[analog burrow]

It’s understandably unclear what the Knight/Dess’s dream is, but it could be related to the Promise Kris made

[ripe harbor]

Whatever is speaking during that fight already can move between dark worlds

considering it stole the Shadow Mantle from Seam, and then used it in TV World

so the idea that it, idk, popped a crystal in Gerson's desk fits

[analog burrow]

or that the crystal was already there, it just wanted Gerson to use it

[ripe harbor]

though its hard to guess much at a character whos defining trait is "Not easily seen or given many identifying details"

yeah or that

I like the read its Alvin's discarded dreams

fits into his relationship with his dads works

[analog burrow]

Yeah, unfinished drafts are the kinda stuff you’d keep crumpled in your desk

[ripe harbor]

"It would be better if my Dad was still around, in some form, to write these instead"

someone wanted him to use it

[sharp lodge]

if you mean ERAM, how does it know so much about kris?
like, the only dialogue we have from eram is laser focused on kris's insecurites specifically

[ripe harbor]

that was about the Shadow Crystal in gersons desk

more like

the NEO crystal was the discarded dream of Mettaton, Gerson's desk-crystal was Alvin giving up on writing

[sharp lodge]

oh yeah maybe

[ripe harbor]

something that a Lightner cared a lot about, and then buried

[analog burrow]

Nightmare is probably gonna remain fundamentally unknowable on some level until we get more information

[sharp lodge]

but jevil doesn't fit

[ripe harbor]

Jevil is the odd one out in a lot of ways lmao

he didn't even have a crystal on launch, it was added in chapter 2

[analog burrow]

Yeah, Jevil is what had me stumped for a while, but a thought occurred to me

[ripe harbor]

(maybe its Seam's?)

[analog burrow]

bingo

[ripe harbor]

I do think theres a solid argument for it as the 'someone' who met Jevil and Spamton, given the similarities in what they talk about

[analog burrow]

Cause I have been thinking about the Doodle of Seam on Asriel’s pc

[ripe harbor]

Its perspective on 'play' as violence matches Jevil pretty well

and it is 'unintelligeble laughter' that talks about 'burning eyes'

(while being a mysterious entity with implied future importance and past history with Kris)

[analog burrow]

Also another characteristic is that it didn’t just want Kris to get the Shadow Crystal

it wanted us to see the game

otherwise, it would just have Seam give us the Mantle

[ripe harbor]

it seems to wants you to want it, yeah

its also very interesting that Seam wasn't expecting it to happen at all

considering Seam correctly calls Gerson and the fucking Knight as future shadow crystal bosses

stands out that they have no info on this ???

apparently in the JPN translation, it doesn't speak like but does quote Gaster

[analog burrow]

which is where we learn some very particular things

I do wonder if there’s gonna be some more exploration into Seam’s character come next chapter, considering Asriel is supposed to be back for the festival

[ripe harbor]

Asriel paralleling Seam because he takes Toriel's side / moved on from Dess, or considers obssessing over the case to be hopeless....

🤔

[analog burrow]

a cherished stuffed toy donated to the local school

and the fact they were also drawn would imply to me that they were also character of sorts

plenty of potential with themes of an ambition left behind for being too “childish”

actually wait I’m remembering how Asriel was embarrassed about liking Yoshi

hmm 🧐

[velvet olive]

it's time for themes of religious shame people

religious trauma perhaps

which, we mean
both that mystery man and the Knight have stigmata

[sharp lodge]

wasn't he ashamed of having to sacrifice him to jump pits?

also it's a bit hard to think of it as religous trauma when sin and confession aren't parts of the religion we see in game
asriel may have made an assumption based off something he saw or heard

[analog burrow]

Yeah, he went to the confessional specifically for that, but we also learn from Tenna he was embarrassed about playing the green dinosaur in Smashing Fighters and switched to Sword Magician instead

[ripe harbor]

Meanwhile Kris liked to kill Yoshi for fun

very funny character detail given MANTLE and the Weird Route

[ripe harbor]

theres a fun error handler message about this too

or at least I interpret 'An emptiness filled your hands' & the guitar pit gatcha machine & the hole-hands to all be related

most people talking about the error handlers mention the "Is that a cut on your face or part of your eye?" thing but theres real interesting stuff in the rest

half of them parallel flavor text for fighting the Knight

knightfight:

"Can you see me...?" is written in the same way as most of UNUSUED lines, ending in elipses

and "(It won't open.)" is ominous when half the others seem related to The Knight or Gaster and theres a big spooky Locked Door Shelter with a Dark Fountain in it.

despite being unused error handler messages all of these got translated into Japanese too

https://www.tumblr.com/duxarcana/788263572144865280/yeah-i-think-they-definitely-evoke-that-poem?source=share

theres a neat post by this person where they put forward a specific speaker for the poem based on japanese speaking styles

(They think its the forgotten man)

[rain lotus]

crackpot theory i had in the throes of consciousness

what if ramb = ram + lamb because caprine = BOss monsters Goat from Underale

asriel is NOT at college. he was turned british

[crimson badger]

well yeah of course, it's Unused after all
I really enjoy how there being a Canon Localization for DR means that we can extract different amounts of information from what is explicit and implicit in either lang, and that whatever's not being localized is likely not relevant to be used directly in the metaplot

[rain lotus]

Yankee Theory

[sharp lodge]

that's right, thanks

[ripe harbor]

yeah I enjoy it for double checking implications. Like I'm not really gonna base any WILD theories off it, but it can point in interesting directions.

Like in Japanese, Snowgrave Spamton's THE [Voice] RUNS OUT EVENTUALLY. YOUR [Voice]. THEIR [Voice]. UNTIL YOU REALIZE YOU ARE ALL ALONE

translates 'they' as a single-person unspecified gender pronoun- it doesn't mean 'them' generally,

it means a specific things voice

theres also apperantly some fun subtext where the words used for making Dark Fountains have a bit of a birthing association, like with "The Knight which makes with blackened blade" the 'making' is a word closer to 'bringing forth (including offspring)`

[ripe harbor]

This is just 'Ralsei = Asriel' 2.0

[rain lotus]

maybe boss monsters are just british. why else do they have a UK outlet in their house

[sharp lodge]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2CC2QCAtxpo

[restive comet]

I heard people say that Asgore is British, I don't see any evidence of that tho

[ripe harbor]

drinks tea
generally sad

I mean the evidence is stacking up

[restive comet]

Fair point

[ripe harbor]

this is the thing that really gets me

I don't know if it was a cat, and I don't know if it was pink & yellow, but-

It overlaps a lot with the 'this is some Gaster bullshit' stuff, and I'm not actually sure how much of that stuff was Gaster's in the first place

and how much it was setting up this thing

That'd be a decade of implication for a character thats not even officially introduced yet

thats crazy!

Its really difficult at this point to tell how important is to the main story. It's definitely related to the Shadow Crystals, but how connected are those to the overall plot? Was it made for that quest- or was the quest made to underline that something is working behind the scenes?

[inland hare]

If not friend why friend

[ripe harbor]

truke

[rain lotus]

imagine he pulls up in his truck and gets out of the right hand side

[manic parrot]

plot twist, friend is me

i've been here the whole time

[ripe harbor]

why did you make Chara do that ¿?

[manic parrot]

i didn't

[sharp lodge]

having watched most of this video i like it mostly but i think it makes what i see as a common mistake
which is that pastra says that the mantle game is dragon blazers

chapter 2 implies that dragon blazers is a turn based rpg, with noelle directly comparing how fights work in the dark world to dragon blazers
i think there's some dialog with her and her dad in the hospital that also implies this
not a huge deal but it bothers me a bit

[serene loom]

yeah its clearly a different game

dragon blazers is obviously an early FF style game

[inland hare]

Involving a lot of murders

[sharp lodge]

it does reference dragon blazers, it has an area that resembles the ice palace from the spamton sweepstakes
but i think it's more influenced by dragon blazers

[inland hare]

I wonder about the social commentary of Nier and its application in Undertale and Deltarune sometimes

[serene loom]

and/or Breath of Fire

[inland hare]

Nier games generally have very very bad endings

[sharp lodge]

there's also the fact that DB has an evil route, but the mantle game forces you to be violent regardless of what you want

[inland hare]

Because yoko taro doesn’t feel that characters like video game protagonists deserve good endings

[inland hare]

Aka people who kill a lot of people for what they want

[glacial ibex]

Part of me wants to see him do a farming sim and how he engages in that

[sour mesa]

farming sims with optional killing monsters for resources are a pretty straightforward opportunity for that kind of analysis

[ripe harbor]

Its also probably changed because of the OddController

like you never start up the Mantle game properly, you plug in your Evil Haunted Joycon and then the soul gets loaded in

[sharp lodge]

https://www.tumblr.com/heartludwig/795633470506483712/old-prom-dress?source=share

Ludwig

Old prom dress

-# #deltarune #ralsei #when you thinks your parents are chopped but they actually mog you #ralsei fanart #lightner ralsei #kris deltarune #kris dreemurr #asriel deltarune #asriel dreemurr #toriel deltarune #toriel dreemurr #utdr

Tumblr · Sep 25, 2025, 4:40 AM

https://www.tumblr.com/gum088/795859362125053952/togore-and-his-new-baby-sibling?source=share

gumi

togore and his new baby sibling

-# #togore dreemurr #togore deltarune #kris dreemurr #kris deltarune #toriel dreemurr #asriel dreemurr #deltarune #deltarune fanart #togore au #gumart #baby kris is meant to look like a pipis here

Tumblr · Sep 27, 2025, 4:30 PM

[ripe harbor]

peak asriel design

[rain barn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bHoE5jiNJM

[low surge]

Asriel should be a little fat and chopped

[ripe harbor]

🤞 Toby specifically mentioning "I don't usually tell people how to interpret my games but this is what Asriel thinks is cool" for the Hyperdeath form is set up for adult him looking different #BELIEVEIT!

[manic parrot]

what does "chopped" mean in terms of appearance

[sinful crag]

its similar to 'busted'; usually bad outfit

[rain lotus]

asriel slash theory

chopsriel swoonurr

[ripe harbor]

if Asriel was the Knight it would say CHOPPED instead of SWOON

[low surge]

Dess and her chopped boyfriend

[manic parrot]

y'all dunking on the man's fit and he's never even appeared on screen 😭

[ripe harbor]

he's spiritually chopped it shines through in Toby's character writing 🙏

[low surge]

I wish I had his swag

Really I want Kris nonbinary swag

[ripe harbor]

they got the hair on lock

and they somehow pull off the gogurt colored Varik fit

[strange cloud]

Asriel went to college and experienced twink death

[rain lotus]

asriel fade

https://tenor.com/view/asriel-tape-is-so-massive-gif-13509829596986755649

[analog burrow]

Adult Asriel and it’s just Asgore with glasses

[crimson badger]

ok I am trying to use words but they're failing me while I'm trying to do a bit so I'll just put out the raw symbols
that makes perfect sense yet was already known but also not

[sour mesa]

very true

[ripe harbor]

t. Gaster

[sage needle]

"and never glooby" - Tenna announcement. "Like a glooby, cute pet" - Toby Fox.
which one of them is lying

[ripe harbor]

Tenna actually admits to lying by his own admission (real) (not clickbait) in game

MORAL: Don't Believe ANYTHING you see on TV.

[sage needle]

Me personally. I've never been glooby

[ripe harbor]

something important but underdiscussed about the "whos giving the shadow crystals" thing, imo-

these games are very character driven, and most of the characters are pretty strongly motivated by what drives them, so the theory about whos 'handing them out' - if they don't just appear - that works the best is gonna be the one that has the best motivation

which is a bit of a roadbump for the Knight being the person doing it

Easy enough to see them influencing Jevil (Who would go on to set up Chapter 1), but they're directly opposed to to you getting the Shadow Mantle (because they try and kick your ass about it)

[delicate cave]

assuming the mantle boss is the one giving out crystals, at least

[ripe harbor]

and the Knight giving buisness advice to spamton over the phone... They don't got a motivation

[ripe harbor]

even if the Mantle wasn't taken it'd still be used, though

the actual speaker isn't as important right here as Seam still wanting to give you it, imo

though I did see someone once claim the Mantle Speaker was the Knight, directly and literally

if I was Kris I'd be pissed at that being true. Can you lock tf in and stop ragebaiting.

[ripe harbor]

and also tbf

Gaster and also have very obscure textual motivations lmao

its pretty much all guesswork

but I think the theory thats going to get closest is going to be the one that has the strongest motive

[inland hare]

the knight giving business ideas to spamton really is funny

[ripe harbor]

Gaster at least has a possible sort-of motivation considering he seems to be interested in edge-cases and strange twists of fate

he is there to help you get Chapter 3's shadow crystal - directly at odds with the knight in that fight

but he seems pretty reactive the two times he says anything, and acts not-surprised but as if you trying to get the knights is unexpected

still kinda funny to imagine him on the phone with a random Ad Darkner. Using my prescience over time and space to tell a guy when to invest in crypto

[crimson badger]

back to the future almanac but its to turn this random addison into a puppet

[ripe harbor]

Gaster when he has to find a short old dude to make insane because he's bored:

he might have had a motivation to split up Spamton and Tenna, depending on how actively he's trying to get the prophecy to happen

but I think it'd be the first time Gaster does anything to actually tilt the outcomes like that? You have to make the assumption he's forcing the prophecy to occur, instead of 'merely' recording it

(& using Gaster as shorthand for 'the mystery voice who speaks in the intro and after chapter 4' with the reasoning: cmon bruh)

[ripe harbor]

this was always kind of a snag for Gaster as the phone person, imo

speaking earth-shattering revelations about fate and the nature of the world, sure. That makes sense. Helping Spamton in the first place? Just a bit odd.

tldr: any strong take about whats going on with the shadow bosses / the phone person / the 'strange someone' needs to at least give a motivation for why they would do All That instead of getting lost in the weeds about #DeepLore implications

[velvet olive]

okay so this is something we've been meaning to ask for a while, but what is the evidence for The Voice being Gaster again?

[ripe harbor]

imo the strongest is the specific ALL CAPS PHRASING which match the typing style of Entry 17 ('room_gaster'), and even mirrors parts of it with repeated phrases ("Very, Very Interesting" -> "Excellect. Truly Excellent.")

and that both type in shorter, clipped statements

"VERY, VERY WONDERFUL"

[inland hare]

Agreed

[ripe harbor]

so it definitely seems like the speak in a pretty similar, distinct from any other way, and people already generally think the later is Gaster (for context and given the room name)

[inland hare]

Motive is tragically underexplored part of theories

Which is why like I kinda initially bristled at the Dess knight theory because like, it made a lot of physical sense and there was a lot of evidence for it but very few people suggested possible motives on why she’s doing anything

[ripe harbor]

beyond that, theres a value used to determine 'speaker' for text generally, usually tied to what soundfont plays - both Entry 17 & The Voice are both given "666" as a value. Gaster is further tied to the number 6 through his hidden dummied out stats in UT: They're all repetitions of the number 6.

not super strong on its own, but it supports the more prominent connections

oh yeah the music is also definitely it too

Gaster's Theme in UT has the soundfile 'him.ogg'. The music that plays during DR's opening is 'anotherhim.ogg'.

[strange cloud]

I think it’s just because motive is something that’s really hard to speculate on without the characters alluding to it, which like, most characters haven’t yet

[ripe harbor]

the second is clearly based on the first: If you think the Entry 17 speaker is Gaster, you have a LOT of reasons to think the voice is as well.

Theres probably other stuff with the ARG materials or twitter or w/e but even in the game its pretty supported imo.

[strange cloud]

Like, Carol is obviously doing conspiracy shit

[ripe harbor]

ya

[strange cloud]

And keeping the bunker locked down

But like, she has not said why at all yet

Because we’re just not yet at a point in the game where it makes sense for her to explain why

[ripe harbor]

Gaster, , and the Knight all have really hidden motives

though

I do think the game is generally emotionally upfront

I don't know exactly what motivates Kris, but "something something Guilt something something Dess something"

seems about right

[strange cloud]

Yah I think we know like, the big emotional parts

Kris’s guilt, Carol’s want to preserve

But we don’t know what their actual goals are

And without those their motive for their actions is super unclear

Like, if Carol’s goal is to save Dess which seems reasonable to me

Then that lines up with a lot of her actions

But lining up and directly going from A to B is different

[ripe harbor]

what I'm interested in is why now

Because Dess Knight would have the obvious motivation of 'leave the spooky darkness', or at least thats what you'd assume

But its been years since her dissapperance, and shes only making Fountains this week?

Was she unable to, unwilling to, or just biding her time?

[strange cloud]

It’s also weird because like, why hasn’t she just started the roaring already?

Legitimately I know others have brought up this point a lot of times

But nothing is stopping her

This is the easiest to cause apocalypse of all time

It’s stabbing the earth two times

[ripe harbor]

that ones gotta be an intentional story mystery

[strange cloud]

Seriously

Especially when Ralsei was so genuinely shocked the knight did it

[ripe harbor]

I think the answer the game wants you to think of my chapter 4 is "Because they DONT want to end the world (yet???). They're after something else?"

throw in how they act towards the party / how they don't kill them

gives me the impression they're setting up the Fun Gang for a specific purpose

[inland hare]

Yeah that’s precisely my issue

[ripe harbor]

They don't want to (or can't?) stop the Fun Gang, they want them to ?????

[inland hare]

So yeah I get that she might be lashing out for some reason

But her behavior doesn’t strike me as someone who’s lashing out

If she was just lashing out she’d have done it years ago

She seems more like a planner

[strange cloud]

There’s also the sacrifice thing

[ripe harbor]

it changes the flavor of the whole thing, yeah

[inland hare]

But that doesn’t quite make sense either though, right?

[ripe harbor]

which part?

the intricate planning or the patience?

[restive comet]

I think she's trying to bring The Prophecy into fruition

[ripe harbor]

probably

wonder if they mean to go all the way, or want to break off early

It definitely seems like Kris knows the final prophecy already, so the Knight / Conspiracy probably does too?

not really a clear motive for bringing the prophecy about though tbh, unless theres something they get out of an aborted Roaring

(or if the danger is coming regardless, even if they do nothing, and the prophecy is the only path to save the world)

[strange cloud]

https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZP8SKTxCo/

[restive comet]

I guess something that stands out to me is the abundance of MREs and other survival stuff in Dess's room, suggesting that she's preparing for something

And she might've gotten the idea to start The Roaring herself since she anticipates some kind of apocalypse

Or at least enact The Prophecy enough to start a world-changing event

[strange cloud]

https://www.vxtiktok.com/t/ZP8SErYQT/

[ripe harbor]

^ this will be Deltarune Graphics in 202X

[ripe harbor]

still very funny that the Knight Laugh sound effect is used

• for the tense climax of Chapter 4's confrontation with the scary aura-farming antag
• in Green Pippin Mike's minigame

I feel like the end of chapter 3 is super overlooked by the community,
tbh I'm not really that different, I don't know what it means lmao.

but it definitely means something

some weird stuff was going down

like its even commented on

what is the Cold Place. Why is it all so snowy. Whats up with the stars. Whats up with the greyscale camera that shows you the 'light world' / original version of things suddenly glitching out the game with an endless array of Null-Value & static.

why is it (seem to be) the thing referred to as a 'lost land', with the background suddenly swapping back to those same stars

just a weird place

[clear frost]

tv static is also called tv snow

[timber widget]

Source?

[rain lotus]

it means "OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO"

[crimson badger]

feels like its memories of the day of The Incident bleeding in, didn't Dess become a Loss during a freak snowstorm?
could a specific constellation be referenced? looks big dipper-ish but it doesn't look right, and I don't know enough about stars to see if that leads anywhere

the star that fell and cried and cried and cried, during the coldest day in the memory of Hometown

[crimson badger]

(assuming of course the star is not a previous incident that could explain Hometown's connection to the Dark)

[manic parrot]

Me reading a box of donuts

[sharp lodge]

https://www.tumblr.com/boxedsprouts/791203977580740608/where-did-you-go

hello world

where did you go?

-# #my art #deltarune

Tumblr · Aug 7, 2025, 7:15 AM

[rain lotus]

sadly it's a family guy bit

[ripe harbor]

yeah I've been sort of side-eying the cold motifs / noelles whole deal given that

You've got all this signal / waveform aesthetic stuff hooked onto the dark, and this repeating idea of finding sounds & noises & things buried in it

and then you've got 'snow' and 'static'

[ripe harbor]

this is also an interesting take though

I remember quite a bit of people used to theorize about that re: Noelle's words on Weird Route

"Watch what happens when I cast a spell I don't know" as if shes done that sort of thing before, to bad results(?)

"There was so much snow, I couldn't see anything..."

It'd also make sense for that to be a 'lost land', if its traumatic memories Kris tries to bury

and also would fit into what happens to TV World at the end of the chapter

Kris brought it forward, but they weren't really thinking about TV World and Tenna while doing so

They were thinking of the cold, and the snow. Zappers don't belong because they aren't really doing this because of the TV.

[crimson badger]

this association does remind me of (dark) ||how people that end up lost hiking in winter are oft found after the snow melts, often not far from the trail||

yah my interpretation of TV world's weirdness has been kinda fed with how susie's dark world is both so tinted by her intent and wishes, but even moreso through her own fears and insecurities, even if she wasn't trying to bring that forth, she was sure/had internalized that she'd have been lashed out on because of opening a new fountain

to focus so much of your will on a wish, but also dragging through all the whys and hows and doubts that arise

maybe Kris wasn't trying to, so to say, but the TV is so old and when was last time it was REALLY used? oh right...

(also the first picture could point to noelle's own anxiety at the situation, but could also point to her knowing what a Snowgrave is but not wanting to bring it back)

probably is survivorship bias + a bit of the association being there but feels like a lot of the paths within the missing pieces point to the Buried Past Resurfacing and bleeding out into everyone's life after trying to make it gone

[ripe harbor]

yeah it reminds me of the discussion in Chapter 2 about how psycho-active Dark Worlds were, and how much they were shaped by their makers (when it was still unclear)

is it a Kris thing that theres some huge expanse of Snow and Stars and Cold that overtakes TV World,
or is it more of a general setting thing, this is what happens to anything lost and without purpose in the Dark?

[ripe harbor]

she does have a character trait in weird route of blocking out memories, does it to the shopkeeper

its possible she was there for whatever happened and just... locked away the memory

[crimson badger]

her own Tree

[crimson badger]

I think I see it, because the natural dark's (or whatever's at the edge of dark worlds) is different from the static that was in the other end of TV world

[ripe harbor]

yeah its almost more of a question than the stuff in Chapter 4

you've got the dark cliffs at the start of Castle Town and TV World, ok, easy enough to believe thats 'unshaped' Dark or whatever....

but then whats up with the Snow?

and the Snow (with its howling wind) is on the edge of TV World where the open door to the outside is in the Light World, is that part of it?

Is this endless snowy expanse what places without emotional connection turn into in Dark Worlds? Is that what most of the town would look like, if it all flipped?

idk

its just inexplicable!

[crimson badger]

what if its related to a dark world losing purpose, not just its darkners? TV world was on the verge of collapse at the tail end of it too, with the show getting canned and everyone quitting on Tenna

[ripe harbor]

Narratively fitting though. I can get the vibes behind it even if I think theres a bigger 'why' that hasn't been revealed yet

[ripe harbor]

and Tenna, who 'brightened up the place' and forged TV World into TV World literally going off the air- the TV went dark, nothing is lighting up the room anymore.

I've also wondered if part of the Knight's immediate reaction to Tenna is because TVs produce light. Maybe they can't really stand it, or it hurts.

Jackenstein is also a candle

First thing you do entering a room that would be pitch black if the TV wasn't on is smashing the TV violently in half.

[crimson badger]

hmm, linking it in my brainium to the Knight's titan-like/deep dark body

probably whatever (possibly) inbetween state they're in means they need a certain level of darkness, or whatever else is filling out the shell has the same certainty of a titan reaching out

of course that's entering deep within assumption territory over a possible aversion (if its a reaction beyond tenna going back on the deal)

[ripe harbor]

true lol

I wonder because its already taken for granted by quite a few people the Knight 'can't exist' when its daytime(?) or too light outside

They do only show up in the Dark World chapters set during the night, or when its raining

so theres a question of- choose to, or have to?

[crimson badger]

yeah, their nature and substance is weird enough within the world that it feels like its currently a have to (although the "choose to" would be really funny just to think you're being a bystander monster looking out the window at the right time to see either a deer zombie, or a literal videogame character zooming past)

there is a "choose to" argument if the librarby dark world was a Knight world (deffo in the camp of at the very least being a Holliday world)

[ripe harbor]

smoking that shit that made the Girl Lost

in their goop era

[crimson badger]

goop knight

[strange cloud]

I gotta say Chatroom, one thing that is always especially annoying is when people bring up “there’s not enough time” in regards to a relationship or character forming

Like… we’re only halfway!

There’s so much time!

[rain lotus]

Tbh I felt like the game just started by chapter 4

[ripe harbor]

I've seen like at least three different people gripe about Noelle not earning 'main character' status or being gone for two chapters and I'm like

1: slow your roll she'll do stuff lmao
2: it is not going to be fun for her to be Relevant, be careful what you wish for!

[rain lotus]

she's already relevant she gets like half the screentime of the game as it exists in weird route as of chapter 4

[ripe harbor]

even in normal route shes a huge chunk of chapter 4

and Carol / Rudy having their first unskippable introductions there, which give her further context

[ripe harbor]

also its wild to say this last part after UT, which forms a huge bulk of Asriel's character in literally-the-final fight

though Flowey serves as great set up for that

[rain lotus]

ut did a lot of recontextualization in its plot where elements develop a character/plot thread and you don't even realize that until you've seen the full context and dr is/definitely seems to be doing quite a bit of it

[ripe harbor]

Gerson also pops up fairly briefly, but his relationship to Susie and what it means for her is pretty well explored

[rain lotus]

like as a super obvious example telegraphing what does "she was/you were used up" mean in swordgame? i dunno but we'll see

[ripe harbor]

you can do a lot in just one chapter- you can definitely do a lot in 4!

[strange cloud]

Toby “can characterize someone in a single conversation” Fox didn’t give asgore 5 minutes of screen time before his fight for people to be saying these things

[strange cloud]

Yah for Noelle it’s especially weird people saying she wasn’t relevant in chapter 4

Like the longest and most impactful light world segment doesn’t revolve around her

[ripe harbor]

Noelle fans forced to experience even 1% of the pain Jevil Truthers feel every chapter release:

[strange cloud]

I’m sorry Jevil truthers

[ripe harbor]

I think its just a disconnect from expectations about the story versus what its trying to do tbh

[strange cloud]

But he’s actually a case of we don’t have enough time

Every secret boss related encounter is just Spamton

[ripe harbor]

he's a bit of a victim of Chapter 1 being a little rough

[strange cloud]

He’s taking up the entire schedule

He demanded more screen time after his defeat

He broke into our offices

Nothing we can do

[sour mesa]

gerson isn't spamton smh

[ripe harbor]

He STOLE tennas contracts the DR team can't legally do anything else

[strange cloud]

Yah that’s being changed in the next update

[sour mesa]

oh no

[ripe harbor]

Spamton whispering to Toby like the green goblin mask for more content

I actually don't know if he can whisper. Babbling for more content.

I do hope Queen and King get some more stuff later, doesn't even need to be important

They're just fun characters

[strange cloud]

True

Queen is always goddamn hilarious

[ripe harbor]

King's interesting because he's introduced before a lot of more serious story elements come to the forefront, so his whole deal is treated much more black and white

Wonder how post chapter 4 Susie would've treated him

Like he sucks when you find him, but he's pretty much just Tenna given time and bitterness

I could see him deciding to actually side with Castle Town as a story beat

though maybe an optional one, since he calls you out for not recruiting every Darkner

[rain lotus]

i think lancer's the only one that got out of chapter 1 with much of anything

i m probably too mean to chapter 1

[ripe harbor]

its music still bangs

and most of the enviromental spritework is still very pretty (and clever for how simple it is)

[rain lotus]

https://tenor.com/view/kris-kris-dreemurr-deltarune-flashbang-bright-gif-3788467770469497707

[sharp lodge]

https://youtu.be/HOX7oS_psfQ?si=-kQI6JxbJJ-IyrZQ

[crystal shale]

https://bsky.app/profile/tobyfox.undertale.com/post/3l7stsnpdnn2u

tobyfox (@tobyfox.undertale.com)

Reposts

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Replies

427

Bluesky · Oct 31, 2024, 2:14 PM

Its that time of year

[serene loom]

chapter 5 Halloween release confirmed??????

[rain lotus]

i'm in the house like haun ted

[ripe harbor]

idk, seems like it would ||take too long||

[rose swallow]

I think the concept of the secret bosses are cool.
How there's the real mundane world, and the alternate world where toys and things gain personality based on people's thoughts. But some people in the alternate world with eccentric personalities and low social status get mysterious artifacts that grant them the ability to see into the real world, so they suddenly become important.

image unrelated

[low surge]

Rouxls Slander

[sharp lodge]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZOvoDiZ6XQ

[amber jolt]

doomed yaoi...

[low surge]

Burgerpants exists solely for the purpose of being tortured

Kris feeling 0.001% of the pain BP experiences every waking moment of his life

[ripe harbor]

thats just what being 19-2X is like

[low surge]

[strange cloud]

https://www.vxtiktok.com/t/ZP8Adm6Bd/

[sour mesa]

lol

[ripe harbor]

this ones also good

[timber widget]

lmao

[amber jolt]

https://www.rxddit.com/r/gravityfalls/comments/1gc94vf/my_exwife_still_misses_me/

once again I'm reminded of this

still VERY spamtoncore

https://packaged-media.redd.it/ht7322qukuwd1/pb/m2-res_484p.mp4?m=DASHPlaylist.mpd&v=1&e=1759402800&s=72cb03eacc80d40065466d789ba4ff496e87fe4d

[velvet olive]

MY [eggs] STILL [miss these EXCLUSIVE deals!] [Goes great with salted margarine!]

smthn like that

[rain lotus]

My student misses me.... but her aim is getting better

https://tenor.com/view/gerson-boom-old-man-gerson-dance-gif-11201294572801898083

[ripe harbor]

EVEN MY EX-         ,  STILL [Missing:] ME, BUT

BUT ITS AIM IS

BUT [It's] AIM IS GET[ting closer] AND [oser to the people that matter most this holiday season,]```

hows this

feels like it would need one more bit near the middle-top

its not quite disconcertingly aggressive enough imo

[low surge]

Cryptobros have discovered Spamton

[ripe harbor]

joining the war between Deltarune Fandom and Cryptobros on the side of NEITHER because they BOTH don't post Good enough about The Guy

[timber widget]

Just fighting in general

[ripe harbor]

I'm more inclined to fight the multiple people online who I've seen still unironically call spamton a pedophile 😭

[timber widget]

Goodness what

[ripe harbor]

I cope by reminding myself that theres like. Actual 16 year olds who could be posting + everyone saying that must be one of them.

[timber widget]

What's that quote again, about undertale fans and reading /s

[ripe harbor]

but thats honestly a disservice to some 16 year olds lmao

[timber widget]

The Public contains multitudes

[ripe harbor]

Free my man he did some of that stuff (not the wildest misreads though good lord) but idc

I think the funniest I've ever seen was someone trying to argue that Spamton would be responsible for whatever happens in the Weird Route going forward, IE: Chapter 5+

specifically they were using the example of if Asgore dies or something on the Weird Route

but thats very funny. Unironic 'why did Chara make me do this'

[timber widget]

"Why would Spamton make me do this"

Lmao yeah

[ripe harbor]

YOU press the buttons! You have to go very out of your way to press the specific buttons! He's opportunistically doubling down on his worst traits in the route where you spurn all connection with any Cyber Darkners in pursuit of power, and serves as a major reflection of the ways your choices do actually matter in the way other people change in response!

[ripe harbor]

He does sell poison to teenagers & try to kill a couple in a basement once but see attached

you know, it happens. Sometimes you just find yourself in that sorta place, I get it.

[timber widget]

Wait when'd he do the second one

Oh, the fun gang, right

A couple of teenagers

[ripe harbor]

ya

I thought I typed Teenagers mb

oh I did just not again

[low surge]

People say Spamton would sell nfts and crypto and you know what I agree. I think people said he wouldn’t do that a few years ago because yeah fuck nfts and crypto and all, but Spamton absolutely would be pumping and dumping TennaCoin

[ripe harbor]

but Spamton absolutely would be pumping and dumping TennaCoin

[low surge]

REAL

[ripe harbor]

he's got a bit of a strange relationship to running scams in general tbh

He'll absorb your money in the fight, and sell you poison and junk when you find his shop- but neither is what he wants

[low surge]

Yeah, I don’t think he’d be a true believer in crypto

[ripe harbor]

He wants you to make a deal, he wants you to buy the Keygen and grab the disk. He doesn't want(?) to be the scam guy (at least not fully, his story is at least partially about self re-invention), he wants to be [[Big]]

I mean he literally does already have a rapidly fluctuating digital currency only he talks about lmao

[low surge]

I only invest in kromer

[ripe harbor]

cursed to be a spamton fan when chapter 2 came out and suffering through Spamton woobification, cursed to be a Spamton fan when chapters 3+4 came out and suffer through Spamton over-demonization

still somehow making it out better than the Jevil fans

I still think Kris discourse is going to be nuclear if they don't hard-side with Susie in the next chapters lol

[low surge]

Jevil fans are dead in a ditch outside Miami Florida

[low surge]

Welcome Back Vriscourse

The second coming

[ripe harbor]

Floridian Jevil be like "Collect my Keys"

I'm already ride or die for Kris even though they are almost certainly going to help get their friends hurt and the world nearly destroyed. Even still, they deserve better.

[low surge]

Kriscourse will be a brand new district in the City of Dis

The freshest of hells

[timber widget]

Ready for the Spamton-centric promotional event after ch 5 where it's revealed he's scandinavian

[low surge]

https://tenor.com/view/my-goat-washed-my-goat-is-washed-washed-goat-your-goat-is-washed-mfw-my-goat-is-washed-gif-11435157539877774481

[ripe harbor]

attempted murder I can forgive, but being euro?

[timber widget]

Where'd you think he got the kromer from

[ripe harbor]

he picked it up from TV World, which is Scandinavian-coded (Cold) (Filled with tall people)

^ & thats because Dremurr is actually an old North-Slavic Monster surname, explaining some of their ancestral bonds with the Holiday family. Kris themselves is Finnish.

[low surge]

SUOMI PERKELE SATANA

[ripe harbor]

The Mikes ultimately serve as an expression of how the countries neoliberal structures exist beyond and apart from the individual, mantaining the status quo even as the faces & politicians seemingly change. There is lip service to humanitarian ideals ('Mike'), but true solidarity remains ever elusive, and ill-defined by those in power.

The Knight, of course, is the looming spectre of fascism

[timber widget]

clue emoji

[rain lotus]

he lives for the grift

grifting used to be an artform

charlie ponzi makes all the pyramid schemes around today look pathetic

[strange cloud]

https://www.vxtiktok.com/t/ZP8Ads7FH/

[low surge]

People have been putting the Mike polycule in Absolute Nutcase comics and honestly it’s perfect

@axolaxolotlx

[strange cloud]

Gaster is trying to silence me

I was talking to a friend about him and this happened when I clicked on an image

Also I forgot I still had chatGPT downloaded

Imma go delete that

[rain lotus]

skeleton house jumpscare

[strange cloud]

I love edits of these comics to the mikes

[low surge]

There’s one that’s this but it’s Alphys reading a “gay ass yuri book”

[strange cloud]

That’s awesome

[ripe harbor]

this is the type of shit always happening to Kris

thats including the "I'm gonna kms" at the end 🙂‍↕️

[strange cloud]

TRUE

[serene loom]

"heyyyyyy kris, its meeeeee, the kniiiiight"

[ripe harbor]

copies are monochrome.....

[sour mesa]

lol

[ripe harbor]

Its funny theres a horseshoe with Spamton

Cryptobros: "He's so inspiring!" -> Average Deltaruner: "You aren't supposed to find him aspirational 🙄"

and then it loops back around with the people that like him enough

he's so inspiring! 😍

probably for different reasons though, lmao

[crimson badger]

that's my grift king

[ripe harbor]

my unpleasant, sketchy, and morally-fraught walking disability metaphor 😍

keep selling murder weapons to kids #grindsetmindset

[low surge]

Scout defends Spamton for calling a teenager a hochi mama: “he don’t have internet”

[ripe harbor]

||this image does get me almost every time though||

(don't ask Susie fans about her comments made during the Hometown Milk Alleyway Incident June 5-June 23 though )

[ripe harbor]

actually given how popular he was, I'm a little surprised people don't talk more about how Kris treated / used Tenna as Discourse™

I think its awesome that they set him up through manipulation and (implied) threats because the writing is fire. But I would've expected some people to call Kris evil for that.

Instead it was all 'they slash them' lmao

[low surge]

Too caught up in the divorce memes

Also yeah, I think that gets a bit overshadowed by the Knight showing up and the reveal that Kris is working with them

[ripe harbor]

yeah, thats fair

[low surge]

And the “but who was SWOON” thing

[ripe harbor]

I just like how personal it is

Kris doesn't like being used, doesn't like being put in this high-pressure situation, feels trapped

really doesn't seem to like the idea of being 'used up' or discarded,

in the process, doing what they 'have to', completely fucks over someone else in a similar spot using similar methods

https://tenor.com/view/writing-too-fire-fire-writing-writing-fire-friendcord-gif-7801118907023267493

it puts a name and a face to it

Susie and Ralsei suffer for Kris working with the Knight, everyone seems like they suffer from playing loose with the Roaring, but Kris sets something up with Tenna, and he's the one who pays the price for that.

If it weren't for Susie, he'd have straight up died

thats good stuff

[low surge]

I can only imagine the fandom discourse hell that will be unleashed when Susie and Ralsei learn the truth

Kris Is Problematic

[ripe harbor]

most of my friends who just played for the first time all four chapters

really don't like or trust ralsei lmao

I trust his motivations.

He means well, ofc, even if he's still hiding important stuff probably

[low surge]

Ralsei Evil in the big 2025

[ripe harbor]

Every so often they'll pop up to me like Columbo going "& another thing about that goat... "

[ripe harbor]

its really funny to me that its the people who never engaged with the fandom at all who are saying this to me too

homegrown organic Ralsei Bad

At least half of it is them asking actually reasonable and important questions about Castle Town & why he knows the prophecy though

[low surge]

I guess for me the end of chapter 4 cleared any possibility of nefarious intent.

He’s got some secrets still but I’ve given up on the Ralsei Crashout personally

[ripe harbor]

I think there could be a Ralsei Crashout in another way, now that he's shown how seriously he takes the threat of the Roaring

I wonder how he'd react to a Lightner geniunely about to start the Roaring & Intending to do so

and if it'd intersect with him growing more confident in his own perspective, and the implication he might actually be pretty good at fighting but just not want to (possibly for prophecy related reasons)

like if Asgore or Noelle or someone is willing to risk the Roaring in pursuit of something, would he straight up try and stop them by force?

He might. Which is not something I would've said about Ch. 1 Ralsei, for sure.

[low surge]

I could see that version of things happening

[ripe harbor]

yeah, its less an outright prediction and more "wait I actually really want to know what he'd do"

[rain lotus]

what if the ralsei fight uses megalovania again

what if they put the freedom motif and trouble dingle in it and society collapses

[rain lotus]

tbh I wouldnt have guessed anything about anything after ch1 I think thats why I forgot abt the game until ch4

[low surge]

On everyone’s soul trouble dingle is happening

[rain lotus]

megasterlofreenia

the gaster revania

[sharp lodge]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1379897543420547242/1423636112613707776/0fno63shltsf1.png?ex=68e107f3&is=68dfb673&hm=122dcf3281688f568fafa11c8430f9c83a1c620c5cabdfe728a09c8fe5abc444&

[strange cloud]

https://www.vxtiktok.com/t/ZP8ALfhMN/

[ripe harbor]

( I only joined chapter 2 🤫 )

I actually tried to download Survey Program on launch but it clashed with the security of the place I was at and then I forgor about it after a few days

when I look at the chapter 1 fandom stuff its always like

people were really just saying shit

[gilded canopy]

Chapter 1 was incredible levels of bait

Expertly devised Undertale 2

Followed by literally anything but Undertale 2

[sour mesa]

it's not not Undertale 2

it's just also more than that

[ripe harbor]

Even when I arrive chapter 2 quite a few people treated it as Undertale 2 tbh

I'm glad thats faded with time

[gilded canopy]

It is its own game, yes, but the idea is that a lot of people were expecting it to be undertale 2

And some of that expectation was probably intentional

Deltarune is nothing if not a game that likes messing with your expectations

[ripe harbor]

ya

the UI in the Light World definitely shows that

but I mean more I'm glad they're considered stories in relation to each other now, instead of Deltarune existing within Undertales shadow

lots of people used to discuss Deltarune's themes and characters only in relation to Undertale, which I didn't care for. Partially because DR got me into Undertale, rather than the other way around.

[sour mesa]

oh that's gonna give you a different perspective

[ripe harbor]

"Wheres Asriel 😭 Wheres papyrus 😭 wheres Chara and Frisk college buddies 😭"
me:

I do like UT characters and stuff though lol. I did go back and actually play Undertale and engage with it and all that

but I did it because I liked DR and what it was doing

[ripe harbor]

the gameplay was really noticably rougher in terms of how the soul controlled

like trying to play Ds1 after you get used to omnidirectional rolling

vibes were pretty different, Undertale is much more surreal(?). Not sure if thats the right word.

Less grounded, more whimsical

Feels almost mythic, or like a fairy tale

[rain lotus]

ppl thought it was gonna be 10 years of kris stabbing ppl

they slash them theory v0.5

[crimson badger]

why did chara make kris do that

[strange cloud]

Wait this didn’t happen?

I cried at this scene

[sour mesa]

it was the secret chapter 5 preview

on the Spamtreon

[analog burrow]

really looking forward to playing chapter 5 and still having no clue what’s up with Nightmare

you know there’s gonna be something that answers 1 question and raises 10 more

[low surge]

Looking forward to the fucking insane ass cliffhanger that 5 will leave off on until chapters 6 and 7 drop

[rain lotus]

kris wakes up at the end of chapter 7

it was all a dream...

[ripe harbor]

I guess that ||makes them a real Dreemurr, huh||

[ripe harbor]

I let my Eevee do daytrading and it evolved into this

[sour mesa]

yeag

[rain lotus]

I also remember people saying kris just wants to eat pie as a joke

I know someone that actually got mad about the way chapter 1 ended

But it is objectively funny to leave people with that for however long it took for chapter 2

[low surge]

Gas leak theory

[low surge]

I love this image

[white basalt]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcleDxcsIx4 any other bull of heaven fans in this thread

[ripe harbor]

Got told I was 'downplaying Spamton's agency' by drawing a narrative parallel to his "Makes the wrong choices with pressure from a Third Party involving a phone" situation to Kris's 😭 this fandom is a prison

[low surge]

We’re in hell

[amber jolt]

we NEED a shadow crystal to be free from this... this fandom.

[crimson badger]

we're the only free ones

[lethal ferry]

Jevil speech bubble

[manic parrot]

no one has any agency

that's the point of the game

don't you nerds read

it says right at the beginning choices don't matter

and the game would never lie

[ripe harbor]

I was basically saying "Its not a binary between 'getting manipulated' and 'making choices', all these characters have pressures that shape their actions. Their circumstances shape who they are." lol

so you can

• take actions to manipulate people
  while also
• lacking full agency yourself
  at the same time

but a lot of people just want to argue about which blorbo is a "good" person and which one is a "bad" person.

usually I don't get baited into those, but this one was people saying theres nothing changed about post-pacifist Spamton compared to before and its like are we serious.

[inland hare]

Spamton has no agency

That’s like

The entire point of his arc

[ripe harbor]

I didn't even say he was nice, or wouldn't screw over other people! I just said he wouldn't try to kill Kris in the future for their soul lmao

[inland hare]

Well yeah his role in the fate is spent

So he’s now free to do as he pleases

Hmm

[ripe harbor]

It is really funny how often you see people double down on the agency of the tourettes puppet-guy

[inland hare]

Wonder

If that’s how things are gonna go down

[ripe harbor]

I do think he makes some choices, but I think part of the tragedy is that like
who he is sets him up to make those choices

and thats where you get some of the poking at what agency means

[inland hare]

Like yeah he could’ve chosen otherwise but he wouldn’t have

[ripe harbor]

Did he chose to want to sell things: did he chose to be ass at it?

[inland hare]

The Norns from gow live rent free in my head

[ripe harbor]

(this is also how I see the Kris conspiracy stuff and its why its 🔥)

They had to go very out of their way to set up Chapter 3, but

would they really have done anything different?

They promised

[inland hare]

Nope

There was only ever one choice they would’ve made

Which is to fulfill the promise

[ripe harbor]

and something fun is that the thing that challenges this, in Deltarune, is the bonds you form with people

[inland hare]

Bonds

Are also chains

[ripe harbor]

Susie, Noelle, Spamton, Tenna, whatever

all of them have an opportunity to change when offered that support

[ripe harbor]

yeah and also promises can tie you down

and you can get 'stronger' by avoiding any connection with people

[inland hare]

To be free is to avoid connection

[ripe harbor]

To have no bonds is to be, well

[inland hare]

Which is why we became bound when we connected with faster

[ripe harbor]

https://tenor.com/view/spamton-deltarune-spamton-neo-death-dies-gif-27445953

disconnected

I am interested to see how the types of power are contrasted going forward

[inland hare]

Jevil lives completely disconnected from the rest of the world

And is “free”

[ripe harbor]

Chapter 4 really doubled down on Susie inspiring 'your power' and the soul-light

[inland hare]

Though his world is also extremely small now

[ripe harbor]

power from bonds, instead of power from cutting off connection (and being 'icy')

[ripe harbor]

Ramb lives disconnected from any meaningful connection in TV World

and nobody would shed a tear for him

but this is also why I think its important for the 'best' ending Spamton gets in his quest, the pacfist one

to involve him forming a geniune, non-transactional bond with Kris (and the Fun Gang as a whole too, sure)

That even when he isn't offering them anything, or even actively fighting them, they still want to help him. And when he accepts that he immediately stops fighting.

And it doesn't 'work', sure. But the bond is still there.

That even when he's faced with the strongest rejection of him breaking away from 'fate', with no idea of how it could even be challenged, with nothing to gain,
He still says "Maybe you can break your own strings"

Its not much! But it is some growth!

That you don't need to accept and operate under the world being this zero-sum game of power, of people using others or being used up. And its absolutely the reason he's a mandatory boss of the route where you adopt that view yourself.

You don't even prove his fucked up worldview wrong in the Weird Route. You just bring out a stronger puppet.

[low surge]

Literally the most coherent that Spamton ever is and he directly acknowledges that his efforts were futile and he instead elects to help the FUN gang

[ripe harbor]

he was pretending there. because he made up his backstory so people would feel bad for him.

I think acting like his character arcs in Weird Route and Normal Route are the same, and reach the same place, just does a disservice to both

Even his goals are different. One he's manically upset that he's still 'trapped' in some way, covered in strings, and wants to get out 'past the dark'. The other he's absolutely giddy to control Cyber World, angry that you are going to 'take that away', and doesn't mention (or notice?) his 'strings'.

Still the same character, still the same guy, but the context is different. Renforcement of the same stuff that got him into this mess vs. seeking something beyond.

[ripe harbor]

(and, of course, nobody who would say this about Spamton would apply it to eg: Noelle)

||(though you are much more directly responsible for her worst bits (because of the manipulation and abuse) in that case.)||

and sometimes I do think people focus too much on the supernatural metahorror of the weird route, instead of the character perspectives.

Its not mind control of Noelle, its 'convincing' her of a very specific way of looking at things, at least partially possible by how shes treated by the adults in her life.

either way,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvKs9Gkn7QE

^ high effort

[low surge]

thank you, Pipislover1997

[low surge]

I love when people draw lancer the size of a new born puppy

Round thing so fat just born yesterday

[serene loom]

its because hes puppy

[ripe harbor]

I just know he feels like a bag of sand

[low surge]

You throw him at a wall and he splats and slides down and recongeals into his normal form

[sharp lodge]

https://old.reddit.com/r/Deltarune/comments/1nyapad/tennis_imasiphy/?ref=share&ref_source=link

[crimson ocean]

https://youtu.be/ZX3Rioe-WB8

[rain lotus]

BLACK KNIFE JUMPSCARE

[ripe harbor]

wait I love this lmao

[velvet olive]

holy shit

[serene loom]

that's spamton

[ripe harbor]

moves the 'how much like Spamton is Mew Mew' meter up another notch

[sour mesa]

was this in the anniversary stream??

[ripe harbor]

nah thats just the usual dogshrine

I didn't play the console version so Idk much about this area

hey its that thing from Noelle's basement

explains why its outline stands out lmao

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IyCcG2UH0ps

music kind of bangs

Alphys........ you can't be using that word.........

especially not against a trans woman.........

[serene loom]

its an ICE-E costume

[ripe harbor]

I think its one of those inflatable tube people

https://tenor.com/view/inflatable-tube-man-air-dancer-wind-balloon-air-puppet-gif-24875468

but yeah for ICE-E

[low surge]

Toby please have Mew Mew show up in deltarune I need my unstable violent anime trans girl

[sharp lodge]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=indAqDZ3F-U

[sharp lodge]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWlO5e-TVkM

[dreamy gorge]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZX3Rioe-WB8

[clear frost]

Thinking about the Titan again

[restive comet]

https://tenor.com/view/asgore-dess-december-holiday-ford-f-150-gif-17979710941529048337

[ripe harbor]

oh? what about

[clear frost]

gender envy

i've had MOTI's guardian cover's titan lyrics on loop

[ripe harbor]

I love their freaky eyes

and how they're stars?

And how they show up as far back as chapter 1, and every time a fountain is made.

gives them some background presence aura. As if they've already been watching the whole time, just... unconciously. Half-asleep.

Make a fountain, they rouse a little. Pierce deeper, they wake up.

[strange cloud]

I think it’s very funny when someone accuses an artist of mischaracterizing the player

Like if they depict them as evil then that’s mischaracterization because most players do pacifist!

But that’s just, making art about yourself lol

Are you mischaracterizing yourself?

[sour mesa]

I think treating "the player" as having a consistent characterization, or even a... statistically average characterization that's worth paying attention to, in a heavily choice-based game is uh

misguided

[timber widget]

Why would the artist make me do this?

[low surge]

Lmao

[low surge]

Very Tenna coded yes