#Red Faction Top Trumps
velvet pelican
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtPNZwVot_w
Almost as good as RFO
I think these are all good shots
paper galleon
kek
this one could work but i don't like that she's facing sideways yaknow
trying my best to get face on where possible
velvet pelican
A bit more face on
paper galleon
mmm
velvet pelican
velvet pelican
Nice nice
paper galleon
hes stronger and hales smarter
Also i realise putting Hale in RF:A means he doesn't feature in the RF:O set but like
eh
deal with it? he's not really a main character in the movie he's what the series would build towards as the main antagonist
paper galleon
Nice nice
ok so
you said do one proper so
ima carry on making them
can update the colour of the card at any point
velvet pelican
Also i realise putting Hale in RF:A means he doesn't feature in the RF:O set but...
Hale in RFO is shit anyway
velvet pelican
Looks good I think
"Darius fought through and destroyed most of mars" is slander though
paper galleon
man its so bad that that one img cuts her head off 😭
woulda worked to
😩
i guess i take this
velvet pelican
I like that one
paper galleon
@velvet pelican best i think i can get it
velvet pelican
Looks good me thinks
paper galleon
yeah saturating it helped alot
velvet pelican
Are we going to build a toptrumps discord bot so we can play in the server 🤔
paper galleon
lmfao
velvet pelican
That would be dope
velvet pelican
Other people would play if it was there
paper galleon
TBF for it to work in the discord you'd just challenge another user to pick
[game] [character] [stat]
Player that inititates the bot would say "User picked Intellect; chose a character to respond with!"
velvet pelican
EZ
paper galleon
though we'd all cheat and pick Capek
velvet pelican
Not if we want to have fun 🤷♂️
paper galleon
:p
paper galleon
Actually
i was meaning to ask
@pure oracle
how does TT steam games handle card games
TTS or TTRPG
velvet pelican
Tabletop simulator?
paper galleon
yah
velvet pelican
Love that game
paper galleon
another adjustment
pulled kara's smarts up - i might drop her strength, she's fairly strong but idk if she's strong strong
might drop it to 59 for parity sake
velvet pelican
Yeah seems good to me
paper galleon
@velvet pelican
velvet pelican
Tbf she was killed by the queen if that makes it any different
paper galleon
Wellllllllllllllllll
Technicallyyyyy
it was a tentacle
we can't know for sure if it was her or one of the rock worms
velvet pelican
Nah it was the queen
paper galleon
defo?
velvet pelican
It was one of the tentalces with the head
paper galleon
i did write the queen initially
velvet pelican
That you have to shoot to break through the areas
It was the queen
The cutscene was supposed to give us motivation against the queen
But the terrible writing ruined that lol
paper galleon
alright ill reword
ive been careful around getting info
i sometimes look at fandom but it gets so much wrong
velvet pelican
Easy I love that movie
pure oracle
I think that blue is pretty good, maybe slightly more washed out would be good though? Idk maybe not
Also tt simulator should take custom games I think, but I've not prepped games for it personally
pure oracle
Darker is better when washed out I think but the one you already had is probably good as is
paper galleon
fair, thank you ❤️
velvet pelican
I think that blue is pretty good, maybe slightly more washed out would be good t...
TT probably has a toptrumps already setup. I'm reinstalling it now lol
paper galleon
if it did - id be happy to invest time to make this a workshop addon in there
eventually
😛
paper galleon
XD
Making the decision to use "Frank Winters" for the card
often Darius refers to him as Frank and Sergeant Winters isn't as frequently used as just his Surname so ill go with full name
velvet pelican
Fair
velvet pelican
ALIEN QUEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEN
paper galleon
hows her stats 😂
velvet pelican
Intel can probably be dropped a bit
paper galleon
ya think? thats the one i started lower and put up
fuck i love that background shot (pre-blur)
paper galleon
LOL
velvet pelican
I'm currently trying to test it
paper galleon
Intel can probably be dropped a bit
throw a number at me
velvet pelican
63
paper galleon
Sopot has 63 
im doing my ABSOLUTE best to avoid a situation where (base game) there could be a draw on a stat
velvet pelican
Yo @paper galleon join my server I need to test this bot
@pure oracle Do you know how to host a discord bot so it doesn't need to run locally?
TBF I have a raspberry pi laying around
It's just a python script
velvet pelican
Adam Hale, originally a member of the White Faction, became a cult leader seeking to wipe out the citizens of mars. He tricked Darius Mason into unleashing the plague.
paper galleon
ehh
its not enough i think
maybe i can get rid of the converting part
its implied if hes a cult leader
velvet pelican
Yeah it is a lot of text though
paper galleon
there we go
paper galleon
Yeah it is a lot of text though
some have more than others
I do need to rewrite Parkers eventually
velvet pelican
Fair fair
pure oracle
<@185856114506727434> Do you know how to host a discord bot so it doesn't need t...
it just needs to be hosted on some accessible host
pure oracle
I'm pretty sure our friend Fudster is hosted on the same web host as the FF website
velvet pelican
Interesting
Well I've got a prototype Red Faction Top Trumps Bot, still needs a lot of work so I can figure out hosting it later
paper galleon
rewrote it (since in the game he says "You're Father and Grandfather couldn't kill me!")
velvet pelican
Tbf I've been debating running my own website so I could just host it there
velvet pelican
rewrote it (since in the game he says "You're Father and Grandfather couldn't ki...
Yeah that's good
Tbf Jake never tried to kill him technically
But he does say it in the game
paper galleon
Tbf Jake never tried to kill him technically
the idea for the series i imagine would be Jake and Hale so
velvet pelican
And Iirc he says "couldn't stop me"
paper galleon
Ill allow it
basically
also
He does survive three generations of Masons (nearly)
should i up his Const?
velvet pelican
Nah he's a weak little bitch
paper galleon
61 currently (had it at 23)
velvet pelican
He survived by manipulating them
And staying out of their way
He hid behind his microphone and thrust cultists at the masons
As soon as he confronts darius in person, he gets one tapped by a rock
paper galleon
so im hearing 31 ...
velvet pelican
maybe -4
velvet pelican
You can slow down his walker with electricity... but in the missions the walker uses electricity as its primary weapon
paper galleon
i can't count
paper galleon
put Mallus at 61?
velvet pelican
Yeah
paper galleon
in a fighter jet
velvet pelican
~~in a fighter jet~~
Still though
velvet pelican
Yah
By standard toptrumps rules this game would last a very long time
Might have to add a forfeit command lol
velvet pelican
Yeah that's what I mean lol
Games run until one player has all the cards
We have like 32 cards now?
31?
And Idek if youve done rfo yet
paper galleon
god im still in love with that background shot
im at 30 cards with the Alien Queen - RFO Could take it up to 38
velvet pelican
The terraformer smoking is a glorius touch
velvet pelican
im at 30 cards with the Alien Queen - RFO Could take it up to 38
Oof
Wait
There's not 8 characters from RFO surely
paper galleon
paper galleon
velvet pelican
I guess that's 8
paper galleon
Stoller needs to be included
velvet pelican
I'll need that doc lol
velvet pelican
Yeah that's chill, once it's a bit more confirmed I'll add the cards to the code
And once you've made all the graphics I can embed them
paper galleon
I think the bot should have a duel or play mode - if you wanted to avoid lengtht games
velvet pelican
We can add more features
I need to refine the actual game as well
I'll adapt it as well, currently it's only two player
paper galleon
also who tf is ezra
velvet pelican
YO HE AINT ON THE WIKI
paper galleon
i made the wiki
if i missed a named character that has relevance
feel free to pitch in
velvet pelican
he's the black guy
paper galleon
(well by made the wiki i mean i made the RFO character list lol)
velvet pelican
Not Sharpe
Google tv isn't working
Hol up
Literally gotta do it on my phone
OMFG IT WONT LET YOU SCREENSHOT IT
In the movie at 09:00
He's Jake's RF buddy
paper galleon
THEY GO AS A UNIT
velvet pelican
HES THE ONLY NAMED CHARACTER IN THAT UNIT
AND HE HAS DIALOGUE
IMPORTANT DIALGOGUE
It sets up Tess' character as the EDF tech expert and establishes why she's involved in the missions fullstop
But I can't show you his face because google is evil
paper galleon
listen he was clearly an afterthought when i made the wiki pages ok 
paper galleon
do i only have 37 with my proposal ^ ?
i could knock one off if need be to be 36
@velvet pelican what do we think
velvet pelican
<@195587317631549441> what do we think
Love it
paper galleon
eh
velvet pelican
do i only have 37 with my proposal ^ ?
I think so. You have 30 and I suggested the RFO characters
paper galleon
you think it fills up the space?
paper galleon
hm m7 suggestion also has 7.
velvet pelican
Then you have 37
velvet pelican
Act I prefer the old one
velvet pelican
cut or add
Depends. Are you screencapping them from the movie or going for stills online
paper galleon
oh i don't mean that
i mean 36 or 38 😂
idk i just think its bad for the white background 🙁
best im doing i think
velvet pelican
i mean 36 or 38 😂
Yeah but what I mean is if you're taking screenshots from the movie then add as you can get Ezra lol
If you're going for stills then cut because goodluck finding him on the internet
paper galleon
Why Ezra over Grogan
or hm, i didn't put Ben down
Jake, Lyra, Tess, Ben, Corvallis, Leo, Matriach, Stoller <- 8
hm
velvet pelican
Ben has a larger relevance to the plot
paper galleon
I kinda want Grogan in it now that ive mentioned him though
but i don't want to take it to 40 on principle of having all the RF:O characters (im not adding Vayla)
velvet pelican
Dude if that's Tess' image 😂
paper galleon
😂
I could drop Matriach for Grogan but idk it feel weird to do RF:O and not include her
I could drop Leo cuz we have Corvallis
idk
velvet pelican
Lol found this one
velvet pelican
I could drop Leo cuz we have Corvallis
NO LEO STAYS
paper galleon
tbf i also sent that image in that D&D search for an image
velvet pelican
The RF named a damn mech after him
paper galleon
(we ended up using alec on the ground on the RF logo 😂 )
paper galleon
The RF named a damn mech after him
ok thats not
velvet pelican
😂
paper galleon
thats a theory
paper galleon
nah
velvet pelican
THE L.E.O SUIT IS NEVER EXPLAINED
velvet pelican
BECAUSE IN THE SERIES HE WOULD HAVE HAD A CHARACTER ARK AND THEN DIED A HERO
paper galleon
no it isn't
velvet pelican
Also I broke the bot
paper galleon
theres a Leo in the comics
velvet pelican
And I can't fix it
velvet pelican
theres a Leo in the comics
Theres comics !?!?!?
paper galleon
yes
velvet pelican
WHERE
paper galleon
paper galleon
well no
one was made for RFG
one was made for RFA
both are history gap filler iirc
paper galleon
Ok Goober
paper galleon
paper galleon
lol
velvet pelican
Because I didn't want to make a whole ass dictionary
I tried to import it as a .json file
But it now can't find the right data
paper galleon
lol
naive harbor
Kara is pretty. But I prefer Sam. (my wife's name is Sam and she is more helpful than Darius' pip boy)
velvet pelican
Kara is pretty. But I prefer Sam. *(my wife's name is Sam and she is more helpf...
Big oof
paper galleon
velvet pelican
Although S.A.M is the GOAT of rfa
velvet pelican
Intharth can you send one of the RF1 cards so I can test the embed
naive harbor
I'll ask my wife when she gets home if she feels comfortable sending a photo
for the SAM card
velvet pelican
😂
paper galleon
pick one @velvet pelican
paper galleon
for the SAM card
😂
velvet pelican
Photoshop her to look like cortana
velvet pelican
pick one <@195587317631549441>
ooooooOoooooOOOOOOOOooooo
WE COOKING
NO TIME FOR SLEEP
paper galleon
YOU HAVE WORK
but also
i only have 1 more RF:A card to do
hang fire for like 10-15m ill try rush it
velvet pelican
It's chill
I'll keep going till like 1am
Then I'll sleep
But I've been itching for a project for ages
So this scratches me good
I don't get to code at work anymore 💔
naive harbor
I'm pretty sure once I was watching Intharth stream RF: A speed runs and he kept yelling at SAM and my wife said something like "why does he keep saying Sam?"
velvet pelican
AYYYYY
velvet pelican
next weeks problem
NEXT WEEK!?!?
paper galleon
9 characters, only 8 can play
I need to retrofit the Stat Icons to RF1/RF2 but look 
naive harbor
I explained the situation to SAM and she agreed I could post this picture
my SAM would be a little too OP tho
paper galleon
@dark crescent ^ where its at
im gonna focus the weekend on my MV
when im not doing other things
but ill return to this next week
daring sluice
so many messages
so inth please share w the class
so Trump was designed in UK ?
Q.Elisabeth was the mother of Capek
graphics are very very nice and cards are looking slick !
also greyestfox proved that in fact wives correspond with the word armageddon well this is why man are respectfull
Or have i got it all wrong ?
also i cant wait till someone will print them out and play w them
why RF1 and RF2 cards are both red tho
paper galleon
why RF1 and RF2 cards are both red tho
they aren't
but it doesn't matter ive made RF2 further seperate
this is the new RF2 Card
I just havn't redone the rest of RF2 yet
paper galleon
reworded this a bit wasn't happy with it
paper galleon
an alt hale shot i REALLY wanted to use but i couldn't find a way to make it work
the guns just to low quality compared to the hale character
pure oracle
why not just cut the gun out and use hale
paper galleon
was a weird angle and didn't fill up the space well (I thought)
this one works well cuz its just the vibes
its the png for him blowing up the terraformer outside the terraformer during the battle to defend it
its quite a vibe shot
velvet pelican
I'm loving the recent RFA love coming through this server
velvet pelican
With the trumps and recent posts, decent lore discussion going on. Keep it going 
Even had some RF:O mentions
pure oracle
Even had some RF:O mentions
yeah I know, but the discussion has been pretty great other than that 🙂
paper galleon
HAHAHAAH
paper galleon
lol @pure oracle it didn't do the same genre for tess 
better i guess?
i think his heads way to big? 😂
itrs trying i guess
i think the first ones ultimately better
naive harbor
he looks familiar
velvet pelican
Oh god please don't use those AI portraits they look nothing like them
paper galleon
tis same enough that cutting it off where i had it would be fine
velvet pelican
The AI one is like 20 years older
paper galleon
i just don't think the real life character is gonna look right with the game characters on the other cards
paper galleon
yeah well you'd be old looking ass too if hale kept surviving
velvet pelican
The AI one honestly looks nothing like him, and it's the best of the batch
The Tess one is just an insult
velvet pelican
Fairly close... The real persons face that we have an hour and half of footage of
If it was a character model it'd be different
velvet pelican
Just use the stills from the movie
paper galleon
im just concerned it looks out of place 😩
velvet pelican
The AI slop is far far far worse imo
Like people would expect the cards from the movie to look different
paper galleon
🙁
velvet pelican
But people would look at them and go "why the fuck was ai used for this"
velvet pelican
Goober is doing a cartoon style
You're aiming for realism
Which will never be as effective as the real persons face, that we have access to
paper galleon
:/
velvet pelican
Maybe if you tried prompting it to generate the images in Xbox 360 graphics styles
But people's faces have detail and texture, your AI portraits have wrinkles, laugh lines, etc... Xbox 360 models are flat and textureless
Imho using stills would be 100 % better and literally everyone would understand why they look different because it's a movie
Same reason why you didn't use AI to make Darius look like an RF1 model. Because why would you?
paper galleon
well the game characteres are still yaknow
they have evolution but they are still cartoon
velvet pelican
Other than doing what Goober is doing, and changing everything to one style
velvet pelican
they have evolution but they are still cartoon
Yeah but the AI portraits don't look like game graphics
They look like someone got AI to generate a person
paper galleon
😩
velvet pelican
Hate to be the dick about it, but I don't think it's the right way to go
Jake was the closest but even that's got huge flaws imho
And it's not emulating the style you wanted imho
paper galleon
😭
velvet pelican
Soz
velvet pelican
I think it would look fine
Try making a Jake card with that still
It'll look good
velvet pelican
Fair
paper galleon
which btw is progressing at a steady rate
velvet pelican
I don't actually know what this is
pure oracle
Same reason why you didn't use AI to make Darius look like an RF1 model. Because...
this is a very good point - you're not going for a standard art style across the board - your "art style" is "whatever these characters looked like in their source media, they're going to look like here"
you should just use the RFO screenshots as is 🙂
paper galleon
Understandable
pure oracle
(also yeah the AI versions do look WAY older:p )
paper galleon
velvet pelican
Understandable
OH SO YOU LISTEN TO GOOBER 😂😂😂
velvet pelican
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRKfFgkI_QM&list=PLt9Xi4RuS_Q_n6M0NmN5v7tkZ5AQJL...
Actually yes I have seen these
paper galleon
OH SO YOU LISTEN TO GOOBER 😂😂😂
😂
paper galleon
Actually yes I have seen these
oh well "what that is" is this 😛
velvet pelican
Nice. I want to do a rfg game night at some point
paper galleon
@velvet pelican alright
you win
but im struggling
these 2 came out ok
this not so much
its a little low res (i can fix that)
trying to get a shot for lyra but thats pure white around her so the backgrounds gonna get scuffed
pure oracle
thats not a great shot tbh
paper galleon
i have this but the res is shot
pure oracle
you're likely going to end up manually tracing her outline anyway
paper galleon
its hard cuz all the shots with her in a ponytail are quite bright lit
AI upscaled this
might work
definietely better
i just need above the shoulder so that arm from stoller won't matter
So i have Alec, Lyra, Tess, Ben + Stoller
to get 6 i can only have 1, to get 8 i can only have 3
@velvet pelican
naive harbor
here's a good image of Tess
naive harbor
i like the silver/grey color
paper galleon
i wasn't sure what colour to throw at it, id set on grey early on cuz its a very different piece of media
pure oracle
thatd probably make sense
that said, for the wiki i think we used a kind of green colour for origins
not that you need to match that but yeah
paper galleon
@pure oracle
technically i guess jake should go between alec and darius but u get the point 😂
there XD
velvet pelican
The RFO ones look good
For Lyra you could use the shot from the end of the movie but the one you upscaled looks good imo
paper galleon
For Lyra you could use the shot from the end of the movie but the one you upscal...
theres one from the end?
in the house u mean? depends on how close it gets to her
velvet pelican
Yeah in the house
paper galleon
ill have a look when i get back from dads later
paper galleon
@velvet pelican nah i dont think itd work
@velvet pelican i still need a selection
im thinking i just take the left 3 and omit grogan
as far as "recognisable" characters go, he's probably not one of them
paper galleon
@pure oracle im a little torn on the matriarch
this is the best area to get a shot of her and her shoulders
every other fucking shot is pure face
like its that or this but ima have to take up the entire cards space to make this shot work
oh fuck me
hm
yeah thats just not gonna work the blonde hair is to much for it 😩 fuck
i got GPT to turn her around to face the camera omg 😭
velvet pelican
What do you need help with
velvet pelican
this is the best area to get a shot of her and her shoulders
That's a decent shot imo
paper galleon
That's a decent shot imo
its the hologram effect
velvet pelican
im thinking i just take the left 3 and omit grogan
Yeah ditch him
paper galleon
itl fuck with the background removal + the white border
velvet pelican
Give it a try I don't think it'll look that bad
paper galleon
velvet pelican
Looks good I think
paper galleon
idk man
velvet pelican
Try it on the card
Also is there not a wider shot of her in the end when they set up the new RF?
velvet pelican
1:31:17 ain't bad
paper galleon
and i keep getting shit from her hair
paper galleon
you sure its 1:31 😇
velvet pelican
Lol 1:26.30ish?
paper galleon
paper galleon
im already on the best candiate tbh
velvet pelican
Yeah
paper galleon
and the hair is whats fucking it
pure oracle
and the hair is whats fucking it
this doesnt look bad imo
velvet pelican
Could cut out the bit around her chin
paper galleon
would be nice if the shot was further out
😩
@pure oracle @velvet pelican i guess i just let it go, it is RF:O after all
pure oracle
cutting out the hair around the chin like @velvet pelican wouldn't hurt, but I don't think that looks bad
paper galleon
like this?
pure oracle
if I were you I'd chop off the hair entirely
paper galleon
wut
velvet pelican
Yeah
pure oracle
under the chair
velvet pelican
Just delete that bit
paper galleon
this whole part?
velvet pelican
Yeah and up to the nose where it connects
paper galleon
ok im not skilled enough to go closer lol
pure oracle
thatd probably be fine if you update the white
velvet pelican
Use the lasso tool to select the hair and use the clone tool for the bit over her face
In gimp that is
paper galleon
Use the lasso tool to select the hair and use the clone tool for the bit over he...
😠 tf u think i do
velvet pelican
Edit things in gimp 😂
paper galleon
idk i think this is fine if i edit the white
paper galleon
pure oracle
yeah much better
paper galleon
paper galleon
i fucked up and i have Hale and Roth on the same Int level - note to change that later
paper galleon
She can not interpret sarcasm very well :p
Ill have to do the rest when I get home later but since she already had the white background done;
paper galleon
paper galleon
Minor issue ive encountered with 38 card with 4 players that would drop 2 cards from the deck, so id like to go up to 40. RF:A is the likely candidate since its 2 less characters than everyone else
im thinking one of the RF guys and potentially McMahon.
paper galleon
38 also doesn't work with 3 players as you'd still drop 2 cards, 40 works with 4 but not 3 - though with 3 you'd only drop 1 deck from the card
36 is technically the fairest but i want to include the right RF:O characters and sadly that does add up to 38 (unless i had Grogan - 39)
paper galleon
velvet pelican
Surely it doesn't matter how many cards
paper galleon
you want it to be a good number for a set amount of players
most card games of this type are for 2-4 players
paper galleon
5 and 6 also don't work with 38 😛
velvet pelican
Shouldn't matter
velvet pelican
5 with 35
velvet pelican
No keep 38
Two players get one less card in starting hand
The code to dish out cards is just a for loop so it'd be fine with the bot
velvet pelican
Irl you just do the same thing....
paper galleon
id like to finish what i have for now
and thats RF:O
@velvet pelican ok we legitimately do have an int spam problem 🤣
velvet pelican
Thought so lol
paper galleon
barely any agility winners (5 out of 38)
velvet pelican
Rip
paper galleon
even less const..
the question is how to rebalance it and keep it fairly close to how they are represented
I think i move Orion and Masako's constition to be higher - that helps balance RF1
I would like to have atleast 1 agility winner in RF1
can make Eos agility higher without messing with her intellect i suppose
paper galleon
I've diluted roths colour a bit to match the background a wee bit better
but it also makes him a little less. bright cutscene glow
paper galleon
Havn't moved any stats yet - really focused on getting RF1 up to date design wise
Also resaved RF2 using the new orange card
(this includes rewriting RF1 descriptions to be a bit better akin to the later designs)
paper galleon
as an example of the rewrites;
Any other suggestions? im trying to keep it fair but im also looking at the rest of the franchise to try and balance accordingly (Tanger's intellect is 64 but Hendrix is 85 - he'd still win on intellect i think but i think i should lower it? i don't necasarrily think hes smarter than Masako)
(davis i think will need parity stat lining eventually he's pretty much a lose-lose in 80% of cases)
he only beats Capek and Repta once - and loses every other scenario 😩
Both him and Echo probably need parity adjusting
by moving his constituion i can set him to win a few scenarios
pulled RF1's 7/8 intellect spam to 3/8
with this new constitution Davis can win 10 Constituion scenarios
(currently - might go lower as i rebalance around the int spam but i can bump him again)
brought hendrix down as well - which has opened up more possibilities to win
the problem with RF1 is Eos is the only character i can reasonably set as a high agility character - the only other option i feel is Masako (Capek has to win on int IMO) but idk
i can probably squeeze an agility out of RF2 and move an int to Constitution there aswell
Gave Echo an Agi win stat - which currently beats 10+ scenarios
Im thinking of moving Molovs constitution to his win stat whilst keeping a relatively high int, probably drop it to 67 and move const to flat 70 and drop quill to 68
slightly more balanced RF1/RF2 set - i think i should move Orion to strength instead of cont, unsure
paper galleon
Might move Dan from strength win to agi win
but already this looks healthier
out of 24 (not got to RF:A/RF:O yet)
Str: 6/24
Agi: 4/24 (definitely need to give this a bump i feel)
Int: 7/24 (much better)
Con: 7/24
This isn't necassarily the stat these characters would win with - this is just their highest stat - which before was like 14/24 for Int and 2 for con
velvet pelican
Looks alright to me, but i don't know much about games
Also, what's the most red factiony default emoji?
paper galleon
😂
velvet pelican
I reckon the bot might be done tonight
paper galleon
@pure oracle i should preface - he's made an entire bot to run top trumps lol
pure oracle
i heard 😛
velvet pelican
Well, I've got a few todos in the code, but it should be functioning
paper galleon
pure oracle
😄
velvet pelican
Yeah it's pretty sick
When @paper galleon has done all the cards we can launch it
velvet pelican
Yeah I won't release it lol
paper galleon
@pure oracle you know more about balancing games than i would
velvet pelican
Still got loads of coding to do
paper galleon
could you give the sheet a once over when im done with it
and check any absolutely nutty lose scenarios
(ive given davis a win con in constitution to make him not utterly fucked)
pure oracle
could you give the sheet a once over when im done with it
i mean sure would be happy to, but my verdict won't be the most informed since I've never played this game or anything like it
paper galleon
all it is is highest stat wins - I am avoiding draws entirely - so its just checking for someone that nearly always loses every scenario (idk how best to check im doing my best atm)
velvet pelican
The stats are always compared against each other
paper galleon
(there are still some accidental whoopsies that are draws but im ironing that out)
velvet pelican
str v str
pure oracle
I'd just make a set of formulas that provide the mean and median of each card and base my analysis on that
pure oracle
the mean of each card should probably be relatively close
paper galleon
velvet pelican
@paper galleon Draws are okay, if you want them to be possible
paper galleon
i do not
velvet pelican
Okay, I'll remove it from my code then
paper galleon
in a game where its highest stat wins draws will likely feel annoying
velvet pelican
The way draws work in Top Trumps is the draw cards go into a communual pot, the next winning player gets all the cards in the pot
I think it's a cool feature personally
velvet pelican
@pure oracle do you think keep draws or get rid of draws?
As a professional opinion lol
pure oracle
The way draws work in Top Trumps is the draw cards go into a communual pot, the ...
what is the alternative?
if draws are not handled that way, how are they handled?
pure oracle
oh it being impossible to have a draw
paper galleon
The best way to include "draws" is to check off how people are in each game and see if anyone should feel relatively close
38 cards just feels like such a low amount to throw a draw in
pure oracle
Ehh, I think personally draws would be a neat swingy mechanic that could help add some variety to the otherwise very similar gameplay. But I also think that if you were going to do draws, mapping the current 0-100 numbers to like 0-20 or something would be a better idea
draws are a bit awkward with such high numbers
pure oracle
well yes, but you may wish to consider both approaches
velvet pelican
I like draws, and they're part of the actual game
pure oracle
if you agree that draws are awkward with high numbers, are high numbers more important than draws, for what they bring to the gameplay experience
velvet pelican
But that's my opinion on it
pure oracle
personally if I were you, I'd assign basically 0 value to having high numbers, and just decide either to forego draws because you don't want that gameplay mechanic, or foster draws and lower the number range because the gameplay mechanic is good
just "having high numbers" provides no inherent value :p
velvet pelican
I'm not sure if lowering the range is neccessary, the numbers in Top Trumps are just high anyway
pure oracle
🤷 I have no context on the actual game 😛 the high numbers with absolutely no context seem like they would make draws awkward
I think if I were you, I'd probably lower the numbers and leverage the cool draw mechanic
velvet pelican
It depends really, the cards are based on characters or real world things and their stats vary
Like
pure oracle
because otherwise the gameplay loop is very, very simple - draws would add an additional layer
velvet pelican
pure oracle
but that's just me 😛 obviously its your game, your call
paper galleon
to lower the range to say "20" would mean most characters would draw on stats in a pool of 38 cards (Imo) which to me would just mean most scenarios would be like playing snap honestly
velvet pelican
Or age goals and height
pure oracle
to lower the range to say "20" would mean most characters would draw on stats in...
but wait hang on, how is a head to head decided?
Is it whichever card beats more of the numbers vs. the other?
naive harbor
I remember seeing a card or toy package listing Luke Skywalker's height in meters and I was really confused as a young American how small the number was and thought maybe he was really short
velvet pelican
So with bukayo up there, caps is 32 which is a big number
So I'd play caps
against Intharth's cap score
pure oracle
ahhh I got you
velvet pelican
Then if he won, he decides which stat to use next
pure oracle
so the only way to avoid draws is to ensure no two cards have the same value for any stat
velvet pelican
Exactly
paper galleon
which is what ive been doing
velvet pelican
But personally, I enjoy the draw mechanic
paper galleon
I only have a couple of draws in the current deck (Roth and Darius)
its been done mostly to avoid draws
pure oracle
But personally, I enjoy the draw mechanic
I do too, but I think mapping the 0-100 to 0-20 or 0-30 would make draws feel less awkward to play
Either way it seems Inth has designed the values to avoid draws anyway, so as long as draws are 100% impossible (which should be verified with a formula on the spreadsheet to be totally sure 😛 ) thats fine too
paper galleon
I suppose it can be rebalanced downward to add draws but
velvet pelican
@paper galleon Let me know the decision, I'll remove or improve either way
paper galleon
its tough because
Its easier for me to go for pure win/loss stats rather than a draw
paper galleon
- if i do want to go with an advanced mechanic afterwards
a different game
that can create draws
velvet pelican
Yeah but don't think about anything further just yet
paper galleon
i amn't
velvet pelican
Okay
pure oracle
I think what @velvet pelican means (which I agree with) is that you should absolutely not base your decision on whether to incorporate draws into the current game on whether you expand the scope later
velvet pelican
^ Tyty
paper galleon
i amn't
paper galleon
im simply saying thats a possible idea for future - not that its affecting what i do now 😛
pure oracle
base it on whether you want it, and base that on the gameplay experience you wish to foster 🙂
If you dont want draws, cool. If you do, cool. Neither route is a significant amount of additional work, it's just a judgement call
paper galleon
Im just trying to establish what it would take to make "draws" feel fun with 38 cards
pure oracle
i mean its impossible to know for certain without playtesting, but IMO very little
paper galleon
10 stats? 😛
paper galleon
you want me to fit 10 stats on this card
pure oracle
10 of the numbers
velvet pelican
2 str, 2 agl, 4 int, 2 con for example
paper galleon
I feel like
velvet pelican
Just make it a rare but possible occurance
paper galleon
Rare ? its impossible to make 1-10 rare with 38 cards unfor
pure oracle
Rare ? its impossible to make 1-10 rare with 38 cards unfor
seems pretty easy no?
paper galleon
lets take RF1
pure oracle
10/38 cards have overlap with exactly 1 other card on exactly 1 stat
For a draw to happen, you'd need to have the card that overlaps and have your opponent pick the stat that it overlaps on
pure oracle
there's a way to calculate the probability of that which is beyond my education in statistics, but it's rare lol
velvet pelican
In each column, make two numbers the same. Except in one column do 4
velvet pelican
there's a way to calculate the probability of that which is beyond my education ...
I could do it but I'm not going to
pure oracle
chatgpt could do it for me (but im also not going to bother asking 😛 )
paper galleon
Parker - 6/3/2/5
Eos - 4/7/6/3
Hendrix 3/2/7/1
Orion - 5/4/5/6
Gryphon - 2/1/2/3
Capek - 2/5/9/2
Masako - 4/5/7/7
pure oracle
the actual probability number isn't relevant, but it's definitely rare
pure oracle
Parker - 6/3/2/5
Eos - 4/7/6/3
Hendrix 3/2/7/1
Orion - 5/4/5/6
Gryphon - 2/1/2/3...
@velvet pelican never said to remap the numbers, that was me (and I said 0-20 or 0-30, not 0-10)
paper galleon
yes but this is just an example
velvet pelican
Parker - 6/3/2/5
Eos - 4/7/6/3
Hendrix 3/2/7/1
Orion - 5/4/5/6
Gryphon - 2/1/2/3...
yeah kinda
But across the 38 obvs
pure oracle
right but in your example, you have tons of matches 😛 and thats just among 7
pure oracle
I think it's a 1.42% chance of a draw btw
thats roughly where I expected it to be - 2% was what I was thinking
velvet pelican
1.42%
pure oracle
and yeah seems right
paper galleon
I think it's a 1.42% chance of a draw btw
with what
velvet pelican
With 10 matching stats
No wait that's wrong
It's even less
Because with 10 matching stats there's only 5 draw scenarios
So it's 5/703
paper galleon
if i have 38 characters with 1-10 accounting for the fact that alot of them i consider to be of similar strength and con
velvet pelican
0.007 % chance of draw
paper galleon
(and clearly intellect)
velvet pelican
Do 20 matching stats lol
paper galleon
no im just asking 😭
velvet pelican
if i have 38 characters with 1-10 accounting for the fact that alot of them i co...
wut
pure oracle
Because with 10 matching stats there's only 5 draw scenarios
there still should be 10, no?
velvet pelican
No it's 5
paper galleon
@velvet pelican look at the spreadsheet
velvet pelican
5 scenarios where the two drawn cards result in a draw
paper galleon
look at how many characters for example have 50-60 in a given stat
id drop them down to 5
pure oracle
paper galleon
Ok lets say i move it to 1-10
I consider Darius Alias and Alec of = strength
thats 3 ties off the bat
velvet pelican
^True goober, I didn't account for the 4 different stats. Only the scenarios
pure oracle
Ok lets say i move it to 1-10
IMO 0-10 would be a way too small range for this
velvet pelican
I made the assumption that the player would pick the drawing stat every time
pure oracle
If you were going to drop them down, 0-30 or maybe even 0-50 would be better than 0-10 (you could also keep 0-100 tbh if you wanted to)
paper galleon
0-10 would be to small but 0-10 or 0-100 keeps it idk .. how do u say
velvet pelican
Oh you mean reduce the range
paper galleon
easier for me with numbers?
velvet pelican
Surely it doesn't make a difference though
About the range
Just make some numbers the same
pure oracle
30 overlaps = 1.07% chance
40 overlaps = 1.42%
velvet pelican
Repta str = 84, Darius str = 82
You basically have most the answers right there
Make them both 83
At least I'd start with that
Use a highlight to show stats that overlap
Bing bang boom
The problem with reducing the range is that the stats don't mean anything
They aren't quanitifable things, so out of 100 seems reasonable
Out of 50 feels abitrary
30 makes no sense
pure oracle
The problem with reducing the range is that the stats don't mean anything
this is very true, though the same could be said for out of 100 😛
velvet pelican
BUT the issue with having a range of 100, characters with 8 con (Echo) feels stupid
velvet pelican
this is very true, though the same could be said for out of 100 😛
Lol yeah you just type faster 😂
pure oracle
out of 100 is also arbitrary, unless we're working with percentile which we're not 😛
velvet pelican
Yeah exactly, the only reason it's "better" is because players can basically imagine it's a percentile sort of
It makes more sense to the lizard brain
pure oracle
it might make sense to arrange it so each character gets 100 "points" and those are spread across the 4 stats
pure oracle
but short of that, the min/max is arbitrary anyway, no matter what the values are
velvet pelican
Maybe that's the play, but with a lower range?
Like 25 points per character
Distributed over the 4
pure oracle
well, I'd go with like 40, for example. 10 per stat average. >10 = better than average, <10 = worse than average
velvet pelican
See this is why we @ you
paper galleon
well
i just had chat gpt convert them to a range of 30
this is what it did to RF1
@velvet pelican @pure oracle
perhaps the points out of 100 would make it feel better but then id still try and balance out of a draw with that
velvet pelican
Hm
pure oracle
if you were going to remap, I'd probably suggest just doing it with formulas rather than chatgpt, that way you know the proportions are maintained
paper galleon
idk how to do formulas
pure oracle
but personally lower numbers feels cleaner to me. That said, if other top trump games use 0-100 it might be a good idea to maintain the standard
paper galleon
maintaining the standard only works for me if i can avoid a draw
but you do raise a valid concern
win/loss only is a simplified boring game loop
i just don't know how to rebalance these into draw states
velvet pelican
but personally lower numbers feels cleaner to me. That said, if other top trump ...
They all use random shit tbh
What do we think of this message
pure oracle
i just don't know how to rebalance these into draw states
=ROUND((A1 / 100) * 20)
remaps 0-100 to 0-20 (if you wanted to) and rounds to nearest integer
if you did this, you'd naturally create a bunch of overlaps for draws. Use conditional formatting to identify them and adjust (+/- 1) as desired to get the right count of them
pure oracle
What do we think of this message
seems good
velvet pelican
I can change the emojis if we want
paper galleon
`=ROUND((A1 / 100) * 20)`
remaps 0-100 to 0-20 (if you wanted to) and rounds to...
idk what conditional formatting is
i tried to do it on this sheet and i could not work it out
velvet pelican
I'm working on capitilising the usernames btw
pure oracle
sure
link me
@paper galleon there, look at the table on Sheet1Goober
values mapped from 0-20 and overlaps within the same stat are highlighted in orange
paper galleon
thats alot of overlaps
paper galleon
apparantly 1-100 had more ties than i realised
pure oracle
im doing a counter of overlpas sec
velvet pelican
Okay I've removed a few bugs from the bot and actually commented my code so it's good for the new cards whenever they're done
pure oracle
there you go @paper galleon overlap counters done
change the number labeled "high end of map" and itll adjust your maximum
and your overlaps update accordingly
paper galleon
so according to this
Strength can be tied 10 times
not that it will
just that it can
pure oracle
there are 10 instances of STR values which match another card's STR value, yes
paper galleon
i see
but thats not all 10 matching
thats at minimume 2 matching
and another 2 matching each other
?
pure oracle
its instances of a value which matches another card's STR value :p
velvet pelican
Bot is alive @pure oracle want to see it in action?
paper galleon
@velvet pelican
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1vh-kfVXJ6Y_MHJ_VvzfkbA6hd0wIQqxEeQE7fDAp_q0/edit?usp=sharing go to goobers page
velvet pelican
Yo