Alpine Faction

[dire geode]

red faction players can how harnest the powers of john carmack

[dire geode]

okay, last gamepad update...

while it's already possible to change or override the button glpyhs via config/cmd, you can now do it within Alpine Settings UI

[fast crescent]

@brave crown is there a known bug where the flag glow doesn't shine through ceiling with dx11 like it does with dx9?

[brave crown]

not that I'm aware of - also in general, dynamic lights (like the flag glow) don't get culled by geometry, so I don't think there's any way it could 😮

[fast crescent]

i thought i was getting old and slow...and they jumped off ceiling before i saw them

turns out it was dx11 lol

[desert crown]

both things can be true

[brave crown]

the light does look different though (on dx11 it's an actual light, vs. on dx9 it's just a coloured bitmap plastered on the wall), so it's possible it's just less explicit at that specific angle than you're used to

[fast crescent]

i tested it and i couldnt see it at all

[gaunt lotus]

which map/spot?

[fast crescent]

wlpronofog when enemy is on roof with flag

[desert crown]

iknew it'd be wl

🤣

[fast crescent]

and im right below them near flag spot

dx11

dx9

[desert crown]

yeah

i think its just that its less pronounced

[brave crown]

it's also effectively the same colour as the roof :p

[desert crown]

well yeah that doesn't help 😝

[fast crescent]

well i did try it with people moving around lol

[gaunt lotus]

yea its not 1:1 at all

checked myself

dx11 it doesn't shine through the ceiling there anywhere

[brave crown]

maybe it would make sense to make those glows more intense and/or bump up the range on dx11

[fast crescent]

took screens with blue flag on red roof jsut now for shits and giggles

[gaunt lotus]

yea the color doesnt matter here

it doesn't make it through the lightmap even

[fast crescent]

k

[brave crown]

i wonder if dx11 is mixing up diameter and radius 🤔

[gaunt lotus]

to be fair it's comically bright on dx8/9

[desert crown]

is it worse on dx8/7 ?

like even brighter

[gaunt lotus]

no, sorry, i just say dx8 because dx9 isnt real

or rather it's not like a native dx9 implementation

it's "just" dx8 being translated to dx9 calls

[desert crown]

oh right

i forget how that all works lmao

[gaunt lotus]

in most cases it seems to end up being better than using dx8 directly anyway

[desert crown]

[gaunt lotus]

i'm not fully clued in on why, aside from modern windows putting dx8 games into laggy compositing chains by default

[desert crown]

what about blue

[brave crown]

not sure if this is now too pronounced lol

[gaunt lotus]

it's still way brighter in dx8

so probably not too much

[brave crown]

yeah, it is always going to look different because it's an actual light instead of just a glowing bitmap like d3d8 (and frankly, the way it looks in d3d8 is extremely cheesy), but agreed that the visibility currently is an issue for gameplay

[desert crown]

mmmmmmmmmm

[gaunt lotus]

i never liked that it showed through walls so, i dunno

[desert crown]

I have to say me neither

in some maps its blatantly obvious where someone is beyond a wall and i feel like that should never be the correct way to play

[gaunt lotus]

i'm not sure if ti should be that wide in comparison to dx8

[brave crown]

well I should have said an issue for gameplay being consistent between d3d8 and d3d11, not necessarily an issue on the whole. I do agree that it is very wonky lol

[crude oyster]

I dunno, I would prefer it not shine through, lights aren't supposed to go through walls. I thought that was a fix in DX11 where it doesn't show up on the back face of a brush if its on the front face, not a bug. 😛 Noticed it in graveyard where the torch flicker dynamic lights outside the mausoleum no longer show up on the inside walls and the lightning doesn't light the inside of the roof.

[desert crown]

like remember that SEVEN map i was looking at? theres that wall that runs round the edge of the map where you can just run from one end to the other, you can very clearly see the flags light through that wall and it makes it really dumb 😂

[gaunt lotus]

this is kind of a tricky thing because the legacy behavior for these was to shine through. if you remove that from dx11 entirely, dx8 has a definite gameplay advantage in this case (and probably with muzzle flashes too).

for general map lighting i agree it's better if they don't shine through

[brave crown]

Oh wait hang on

[desert crown]

i stuck the flag through on purpose just to show but yeah, its disgustingly obvious XD

[brave crown]

IAC is actually right lol - this is something rafalh designed long ago, I didn't realize it was done this way. DX11 does intentionally implement a calculation intended to stop dynamic lights from illuminating surfaces facing away from the light (like backfaces)

[gaunt lotus]

i would say exclude muzzle flashes and flags from that only if possible

then u get near 1:1 maybe

[brave crown]

In the stock D3D8 engine, dynamic lights on BSP faces use distance-only attenuation. The only thing that determines brightness is how far the surface point is from the light — closer means brighter, further means dimmer. This produces a uniform pool of light radiating outward from the source.

The D3D11 renderer adds N·L (normal-dot-light) on top of the distance attenuation. This means the brightness also depends on the angle between the surface and the direction to the light. A surface directly facing the light gets full contribution, while a surface at a glancing angle gets much less.

here's claude's explanation of how each works

[crude oyster]

If people are really desperate for that slight advantage because winning RF is so important, then they can just play on dx9. I say keep the full fix on dx11 because even flags and muzzle flashes look dumb shining through walls. 😛

[gaunt lotus]

i also think it looks dumb, and i think that having dyn lights shine through walls lowers the skill ceiling of the game quite a bit. it isn't a slight advantage, really, it's basically a beacon in CTF as to what the carrier is doing a lot of the time. if people are playing the game in a competitive environment, they should be desperate for every advantage, because there's no reason to play without that drive. but also, this is one of those areas where game logic and aesthetics intersect - the legacy dyn lights are effectively not just a graphical effect, they're a defacto game mechanic and they've been around a long time.

it's not a good solution to just say play on dx9 if this is important to you, because game mechanics should generally apply regardless of whatever renderer someone is using. the right way to delete dyn lights from comp play would be to add a server gate to it, but this couldn't be done at this point without forcing people to use dx11 entirely at a server level (and is a huge can of worms for alpine <1.3)

[dire geode]

think it's possible to replicate the same effects from DX8/9 to DX11?

but only as a option ala Half-Life 2 anniversary patch's effect options?

but obviously enforced in multiplayer for the sake of fairness.

[crude oyster]

Well then perhaps make it an option in settings, like full bright models. People that want it can enable it people that don't can disable it. 😛

[gaunt lotus]

true, that's a fair compromise

[desert crown]

can you console command that one maybe

instead of options

[gaunt lotus]

i think goober would need to get legacy-like behavior working first lol

before we get to that point

[brave crown]

Well, I really have no desire to actually replicate the legacy behaviour because it looks like total shit... but replicate a similar level of visibility yeah, for sure

r_dynamiclightndotl [0.0 - 1.0]

https://github.com/GooberRF/alpinefaction/pull/312
here's the code - I need to sleep but if you want to see it there it is. Will revisit tomorrow

[thorny pumice]

It looks like it needs to be stronger and more concentrated (smaller) in my eyes. I assume it's wider due to it being a sphere type of light calculation rather than just a "glow" bitmap.

Ultimately I'm with Nick on this. We shouldn't be changing the default RF experience/behaviour. By default I expect a stock RF gameplay experience when running alpine/dash or RF1.2. Any differences should be toggleable, so in this instance, allow it to be toggled off, but default is on.

Rule No.1 for any of this stuff is it should not compromise the original experience.

[crude oyster]

Ya, bring back weapon glitching, I want my unlimited fusion rockets experience back! haha 😛

[crude oyster]

On an unrelated note, how does LOD scale work in Alpine settings? I thought it was just a multiplier for the LOD setting in meshes, but that doesn't seem to be the case. If I set the mesh LOD1 to have a distance of 6m and my alpine settings set LOD scale to 10. I would expect the LOD to kick in around 60m but its actually kicking in around 35m. If I set the mesh LOD1 to 5m and set my LOD scale to 20 I would expect the LOD to kick in at 100m but its actually kicking in around 50m. 🤔

Also LOD's seem to have 0 benefit to performance on DX11. 🤔 On DX11 if I stand way back to take in whole map and set LOD scale to 1, which puts everything in its lowest quality LOD, I get 830fps, then when I set it to 100 to put everything at its max quality I still get 830fps. Whereas in DX9 with the same test I go from 255fps to 165fps.

[prisma dirge]

It turned out, that bots are still dead after a while.
Especially the bots on CTF-Server.
But I can add bots again to the server.
So I have configured a taskschedule on the server, which is starting two headless-bots each 30 minutes

[dire geode]

so I checked the PS2 version myself annnnd I found out that Fine Tune Aim happened to be GoldenEye/Perfect Dark's FreeAim function. 😔

...does the PC version has it under the hood/leftovers, or do I have to find a way to decouple the Crosshair to replicate a "missing feature"?

[desert crown]

Id rather we didn't have that on PC tbh :p

[dire geode]

i...actually want it for the sake of feature parity...and also i like wiimote-style cursor aiming

[desert crown]

Idk about feature parity, but it always felt somewhat useless/tacked on

atleast in my experience

that said i never played golden eye - i just know that its the same thing, but when i played, RF combat is a little quirky (specially on harder difficulties with cross hair dodging)

[dire geode]

pairs well with Gyro Aiming

[brave crown]

This is a dicey thing to do because it will almost certainly end up with tons of bots joining your server.

Can you send me a crash dump file? AlpineFaction-crash.zip from RedFaction\logs

[dire geode]

that being said, Center View is "added" back to Alpine Faction in the gamepad pr.

just under a different name (will be renamed to mirror the original), and has a smoother animation as opposed to a instant snap

now I wonder if PC leftover code would make it easier to bring back Rumble function? 🤔

[desert crown]

centring the aim is fine 😄 i just found the "precise" aiming to be rather unprecise when it needed to be 😛

[prisma dirge]

There is no Crash Dump with current date.
Latest Crash Dump is from 22,03,2026

I am doing sometimes a taskkill for all RedFaction Processes.
Maybe this is also any exisiting Crash-Handler-Process, if existing.
No task scheduled up to now.
I guess I will have to

"taskkill -f -im RF_120na.exe"

[brave crown]

why are you doing that?

That would certainly stop a process from crashing, because it's being forcefully killed not crashing

[prisma dirge]

Clean up all Server processes and restart everything new

[brave crown]

what is the value in doing that though? Killing and restarting all RF processes every so often should never be necessary, but would absolutely disrupt the experience for all players

[prisma dirge]

Currently I do it only manually, when noone is on my servers

[brave crown]

but why?

[prisma dirge]

When adding bots each 30 minutes... then I have at the end many processes which are not connected anymore to servers.

Server seems to be stable

[brave crown]

You should not be adding bots on a 30 minute interval

[prisma dirge]

Yes I would prefer I could use some value like sv_countclients

[brave crown]

I'm not sure what exactly for?

If your bots are crashing there would be a crash dump

If they're disconnecting from the server, that would be very strange but would have a different cause

If this is an issue it should be fixed, using task scheduler is almost definitely going to cause other issues

[prisma dirge]

Yes but tonight the bots disconnected without crashdump or processkill

[brave crown]

also @dire geode I'm getting a report from someone about ms_scale

1. You can aim when dying on modern and raw (this is probably easy to fix - rf::entity_is_dying()
2. Apparently mouse aim is just stopping for a half second or so at a time, in multiplayer (as a client, not listen server) is the only place it's been noticed

Have you seen either of these issues? Do you know a cause?

[brave crown]

Are the bots running on the same computer as the servers

[prisma dirge]

Yes

[brave crown]

what does the server console say when it happens

[prisma dirge]

Not much. Don't have the exact output, but something like "Client Franklin was kicked because of broken or not reliable connection"

[dire geode]

I'll admit, I didn't test multiplayer as much compared to Single-Player.

Won't be home at the moment.

first part seems fixable tho.

[brave crown]

@prisma dirge is it happening on a specific map? on map switch?

[brave crown]

yeah the first part should be easy to fix I think, but the second needs investigation for sure

[prisma dirge]

Not sure, I already got kicked when playing on the server with bots in the middle of the map time

[dire geode]

second one? Might also be important to get it fixed on Gamepad PR too, since it has the same centralized camera code.

[brave crown]

kicked or connection dropped

[prisma dirge]

Cant say... I have to wait for the error and then I can post it here again

[brave crown]

you were on the client at the time right?did you get a redcomp with your connection dropped? or just kicked instantly?

[brave crown]

I just replicated it as well. Happens a lot in multiplayer after the first life, it seems

[dire geode]

...If you can try to get both fixed via camera.cpp (my guess it's a side effect during the migration), I can easily backport it over to Gamepad pr

[prisma dirge]

I have DM, TDM and CTF Server. CTF Server has least number of bots

[dire geode]

til then, gonna wait til I get back home and try to investigate

[gaunt lotus]

there is honestly an argument that this should be a server variable, but these glitches were always super compromising and have been patched for nearly 20 years at this point... i'm not sure if anyone would actually run servers with glitching enabled (well, aside from the one everlasting 1.2 server that already exists)

[brave crown]

🥳 waypoint autogeneration now supports conveyer belts

[dire geode]

back home and immediate start dealing with the bugs. i believe i got the first bug fixed up, but i won't make a separate PR right away til one of us can test it and know for sure.

please review on the Gamepad PR (which the fix is already applied there) while i try to look into the second bug you reported.

https://github.com/AL2009man/alpinefaction/commit/77adb3fa72f22f27afce2dfdcdf4a76bb13cfe00

rolled out another fix, i think it's related to player dying state? will have to investigate a bit further to isolate

[dire geode]

i...believe i isolated the problem. it's most likely related to keep_mouse_centered that conflicts, and it bled thru the gamepad input as well.

fix is rolled out on again: gamepad pr.

[dire geode]

i should be able to isolate the fix enough that i'll do a draft pr (soon) for anyone to review to test. it'll be there momentary

[brave crown]

@dire geode did you replicate the issue earlier? I'm not able to test the fix yet, but it being in keep_mouse_centered would make some sense

[dire geode]

not yet, but I'm redoing both fixes

doing a draft pr (fix is already applied in Gamepad PR)
https://github.com/GooberRF/alpinefaction/pull/314

this PR also seem to not have a issue with the camera unable to move by 0.2-0.3 seconds after a respawn?

i did noticed that performance kinda degrades a bit...but i'm not completely sure if this is a DX11 thing or a ms_scale thing. regardless: this pr also attempts to address it a bit.

[brave crown]

hm?

[dire geode]

...this seems to be the case?

i'll rolled it over to the same draft pr.

with that, the pr is ready for a review. @brave crown, please test and verify if multiplayer client still lets you move around while in a dead state

[brave crown]

I will test when I am home for sure, but you can also test it - just join the FF pub and see, it's very obvious the first time you die :p

[dire geode]

i typed kill while i was testing. that's how i know the problem

also pretty funny to move around with the analog joystick in the gameapd pr

but that fix is also applied to the gamepad pr

[gaunt lotus]

there's also a "Respawn" key you can bind, which is just an alias for kill

[dire geode]

just found one more bug with the respawning portion. should be a easy solution...

[brave crown]

Were you able to replicate the issue with mouse aim cutting out sometimes in mp?

I didn't see that in SP at all, or as a listen server host, but did as a client in a dedi

[dire geode]

can't test on a devbuild, dedicated server desn't work in my end.

would have to do it via git actions...gimme a moment while i add the same fix over to gamepad pr

nnvm i accidentally turn on LAN mode lol

ok, i'll test it while in the gamepad pr!

ok, on the gamepad pr with the same fixes: everything seems to work as intended

i'll test with the non-backported fixed shortly after i fix a bug with the game over screen with gamepad

then, i can FINALLY go and replicate the joystick behavior from the PS2 version

[brave crown]

It should 😮 but also it could be any server, doesn't need to be a server on this branch

You could just join a pub

[dire geode]

uhhhhh i already solve it

i forgot to turn off LAN mode

[brave crown]

Ohhhh whoops, misread

[dire geode]

juuuust found one more extra bug related to spectator camera....will also get that fixed up too

[dire geode]

i believe all camera-related regressions has been sorted out

[dire geode]

the gamepad movement and camera system has been tweaked a bit to mirror PS2 version

obviously, we're missing the gun swiveling effect from the PS2. best i can do for now, i got a example code during my initial attempt. might need someone who's more familiar with this stuff than I am.

but it is possible to make a custom gunsway if you wanna replicate PS2 sway! I did tried that prior to the FunHook experiment for a bit.

[brave crown]

I did have a PoC of that last year at some point - worked totally fine technically, but the pivot points are missing on some of the meshes

those could be injected now of course (similar to nick's footstep fix code), I just didn't know how to do that back then :p

this is what I had before

[dire geode]

perfect dark-ass sway

I didn't captured the vid, but it has a bit of a circular setup.

but anyway, if you folks can figure that out...we might get it closer to graphical feel of parity

[brave crown]

weapon sway is something I was planning to revisit at some point yeah

there's not much the ps2 version has that the PC doesn't, but that's certainly a noticable one :p

[desert crown]

I feel like i have to be alone in the fact that that doesn't bother me, seems to wind everyone else up 😂

[brave crown]

huh? 😮

[dire geode]

Fine Aiming / Crosshair mode is absent from PC, of course...and I still haven't gotten around to it yet

[brave crown]

what does?

[dire geode]

got busy trying to fix the camera stuffs whole day. 😔

[desert crown]

(the weapon sway, idc that its not on PC doesn't bother me, incase that wasn't clear 😛 )

[brave crown]

It is, but of course that would be laughably awful with mouse aim anyway, and the PC version never supported any other type of aim... so I'm not surprised at all that fine aiming is missing as well

[brave crown]

I mean, it doesn't bother me either, it's just a nice graphical feature :p I doubt many people are missing it

[dire geode]

well, I do have a working gyro aiming system with me. 😛

[desert crown]

fair enough

[dire geode]

if Fine Aiming is in PC version but hidden/disable, I'll go look for it at some point

right now: bigger priority is Gamepad PR and SDL Keyboard+Mouse

[desert crown]

I feel like it probably isn't? I have to wonder if they would have kept it but they changed so many subtle things it wouldn't surprise me if they stripped those lines of code out completely

[brave crown]

I would be surprised if that stuff is still in the codebase, but hey I could be wrong

[desert crown]

makes no sense to leave it in, now they did leave some other things in, but since (atleast at the time) controllers on PC was just not a thing it probably would have been on the "Remove to make XYZ better" kinda checklist

[dire geode]

DirectInputs a thing, tho.

but I understand why it's not there.

[desert crown]

@brave crown wasn't direct input Dash Faction?

[dire geode]

only for Mouse

[brave crown]

hm? DirectInput is in the stock game

[desert crown]

oh

[brave crown]

just not accessible

[desert crown]

idk thats why i asked

😄

[brave crown]

to the best of my knowledge it was first enabled in PF

[desert crown]

gotcha

why was it there if there was no way to use it?

[dire geode]

thought DirectInput usage in Alpine Faction was for Mouse only?

[brave crown]

it is yes

thats what inth meant

[desert crown]

^

[brave crown]

(afaik no one in RF has ever complained about keyboard input 😛 only mouse)

[dire geode]

I did found out that the ALT key can cause le game to freeze for a second

I unintentionally fixed that during the SDL KB/M PR stuff

[dire geode]

I'm definitely looking forward to hear player's opinion on SDL KB/M Input very soon.

I gotta go plan on cleaning up the PR l tomorrow or this week.

[crude oyster]

For me its only been patched out for 3 years. 😛 Stopped playing in 2007. Me and my friends never used PF because we didn't like that it changed things, so just used Crystal Faction for the gpu bug fix. Then I came back in 2023 and it was gone with DF. 😛 Was always good fun trolling each other with a volley of fusions haha. There was also the wall peak glitch that is gone now, where you could zoom into a wall with a scope and see through the wall. That was useful some times, could argue it was another gameplay feature that was a part of the original experience that is gone now, haha. 😛 But yeah I can't see a server allowing glitching, but it is fun when just messing around with friends.

[desert crown]

I was Last year days old when I was informed about that when nick told me to camera2 into a wall and find a texture that accused people of cheating for trying to scope through the wall 😄

[crude oyster]

You missed out on Red Faction's lawless wild west days haha

[gaunt lotus]

no it just told them to stop wall peeking

it was never cheating, just incredibly broken glitch lol

[desert crown]

i know that but its effectively 😛

wait isn't that Ra

😂

[brave crown]

i think that was anubis

[desert crown]

ah

[brave crown]

the earliest incarnation of ra

[desert crown]

[gaunt lotus]

but it's true that those were/are things that were patched out entirely in PF and later DF, without any way to revert them. I'm not sure how practical it is at this point to restore them with a server on/off flag, but maybe it's worth doing if people want to run a server that supports glitching

there were probably 1/2 dozen weapon glitches in total i think

[crude oyster]

@brave crown So how does LOD scale work, cuz its not what I thought and I want to make more informed decisions when setting up my mesh LOD's. 😛

[brave crown]

I have fond (and very stupid) memories of baton glitching tons of fusions across Microfaction3

[brave crown]

i will have claude write you a detailed report on how that feature works

[crude oyster]

What other ones were there? Those are the only ones I remember.

[brave crown]

reload skipping is another bad one back in the day

[crude oyster]

Sounds like a good one to me haha.

who wants to wait for reloads 😛

[gaunt lotus]

nobody in europe, i can tell you that for sure

just ask @split sleet

[brave crown]

@crude oyster

[gaunt lotus]

nobody in EU reloaded from 2001-2008

even a single time

[desert crown]

Enter me; the dude who spams reload after firing a bullet

Speedrun brain rot

[brave crown]

#1376930844597551146 message
(for the record, claude sometimes dreams up its own justifications for why things are the way they are - take that stuff with a grain of salt 😛 Like DisableMultiCharacterLOD existing because it "can affect target identification in competitive play" - no, that's not why lol)

This exists because low-LOD character meshes in RF are noticeably degraded
this part is certainly true

[gaunt lotus]

reload skipping (switch away from current weapon, switch back while spamming reload key for instant reload)

swing baton -> free bullet

shoot the sky with pistol 20+ times in WL -> disables guns for all players until map reload

spam/drum pistol -> switch to shotgun, RL, anything in some cases -> fires like 1-6 instant duplicate primary fires of what you switched to

there are some i'm forgetting for sure

[brave crown]

dude i forgot all about the pistol gun disable one lol

[gaunt lotus]

oh, menu select would let you rapid fire shotgun and RL

[brave crown]

@gaunt lotus : favourite rf glitch? (excluding headjumping/mine footing - the objective winners)

[gaunt lotus]

uncrouching into grating to get stuck

[brave crown]

that's a great pick

[gaunt lotus]

the rest i actually really hate, so yeah

[brave crown]

mine is spidering across the ceiling after entering a climbing region while crouched

[gaunt lotus]

aside from like, just fucking around with them for fun, all of those glitches were pretty game destroying imo

[desert crown]

shoot the sky with pistol 20+ times in WL -> disables guns for all players until map reload

i need more info

😂

[gaunt lotus]

ther was a cap on the number of projectiles that the server could handle at any given time, or per frame or something

when u fired the pistol into the air, the projectile never hit anything and the server kept tracking it forever

[desert crown]

oh my god thats game dev 101

[gaunt lotus]

after like 30 shots or something nobody could shoot anymore bc u couldnt create more projectiles lmao

[desert crown]

thats wild

[gaunt lotus]

it was probably more maps than wl, just anything with a sky basically

[desert crown]

one of the first things all the game dev courses i look at teach you is how to kill things once they go off screen 😂

[crude oyster]

All I really wanted was an equation I can use to determine what distance my LODs will actually kick in at the default 10 value. Like If I want the first LOD to appear at 60m what value should I put in the mesh. Didn't see that in there unless I missed it. 🤔 it says "10.0 (default) | Meshes stay at high detail ~10x farther than stock" I'd assume stock would be the actual value put into the mesh and 10 setting would be 10x that number, but that doesn't seem to be the case. From my test it isn't actually a simple multiplier, cuz 6m set in the mesh is actually coming up at 35m at 10 setting, not 60m and 5m in mesh at 20 setting is appearing at 50m not 100m.

[crude oyster]

So many things I missed out on trying back in the day lol. That WL one is pretty crazy.

[fast crescent]

https://tenor.com/view/wwe-the-road-warriors-legion-of-doom-wrestling-road-warriors-gif-18559886

regarding LOD, if heat was here he would think we talking about lift off distance with mice.....and if mike was here he would be thinking of this LOD 👆

[crude oyster]

wait what, you could just crawl across a ceiling without climb region if you went into climb region near it crouched? 😲 I guess I missed out on that one too.

[split sleet]

yes ... amazing vanilla stock feel. playing same 4 maps over and over with rail wallstaring and unog macro enjoyers. picking 0/200 was almost worthless

hard to say if this was EU only thing tho,
polish scene was pretty strict when it comes to weapon glitches (ONLY RL spam to destroy WL walls was kinda agreed upon) and fusion/hmg amps 200/200 in DM/TDM was banned and consider bad manner

but macro epidemic usage that started around razer diamondback kinda years was insane.

i love instagib in most games, would say its 'my thing' but hell no i would want to ever go back to that . viva modern smart maps

i miss that WL geo tho it was canon for years

of course realisations came only years after. Back then we just didnt knew . we all were enjoying that

word 'meta' wasnt even a thing

[split sleet]

@brave crown quick question > would waterboost work on PF - runmaps MP with quicksave/quickload system ?

[desert crown]

i dont think so

the server save/load thing doesn't do the same as the SP s/l

or atleast

it doesn't work the same with trying to glitch 😛

[gaunt lotus]

haha no it was definitely not EU only, i'm just being a turd. entire scene was glitch happy :p

but a lot of ppl didnt even realize they were doing some of them either

buggy game

[split sleet]

'im not using macro' - its in the mouse software wdym

xdddd

[gaunt lotus]

ahahha

[gaunt lotus]

the wl one was really bad because noobs would randomly do it and trolls as well, and if u remember there were like these 24/7 WL and BC public servers filled with players

often they had like 30 minute or 60 minute map rotations and if someone did this and nobody was around with RCON to switch the map, the server was just fucked for hours

[brave crown]

My understanding is no. The MP "save/load" system respawns a player as opposed to reloading the game like SP. I have never looked at the code to see why waterboosting happens, but my understanding is that it wouldn't work for that

[brave crown]

You still can, yes :p It's basically never useful but you can

[prisma dirge]

Regarding the bots, is there a place where I can post Screenies with Levels where the autogenerated Waypoints File is deliviering not optimal results?
I don't want to spam or break any discussion, but maybe collecting infos regarding bots could give some overview

Bots have problems with CTF-EK-MegaWoot-Rail.

[brave crown]

So, just to start, if you consistently notice a particular issue with autogen's core logic - like if it's putting waypoints or links in areas that clearly should never have them for example - definitely let me know those things (with a map I can replicate the issue on) 🙂

but as for individual issues with autogen for specific maps, honestly, right now there's no point. Bots are not actually intended for use yet, and I'm still working on the waypoint autogen logic (as in, I made changes to that logic less than 5 minutes ago)

Once bots/waypoints release, and waypoints are served via the autodownloader, I'd want to know about any severe issues with the waypoints the autodownloader is serving for sure

To be totally clear on what autogen is, it is not intended that autogen always produces waypoint files that are 100% free of issues right out of the gate - that's not possible given the variety of maps that exist that all do things different ways. Some AWP files will require manual tweaking, and if you're generating your own, you should expect to have to do that via the waypoint editor in-game (this is part of why these will be served to users via the autodownloader once bots/waypoints are ready for widespread use). Autogen is meant to provide a starting point, but many autogen'd waypoint files will need a small amount of tweaking before they're optimal

[brave crown]

Like, on this map in particular - I've fundamentally overhauled how autogen handles jump pads within the past few days 😛 I don't know how it will handle that map now, but unless you've updated your dev build very recently, autogen probably isn't creating any links for those jump pads at all

[desert crown]

Also im unsure if wilson is aware how it works but the bots automatically get better pathing after players roam in the map they are in

[brave crown]

"better" isn't necessarily true,but yeah they do learn

[desert crown]

better/learning

[brave crown]

Though even then, they do more heavily weight the built-in waypoints in the map over player dropped ones during gameplay, because the built-in ones are viewed as more reliable (players can do dumb shit during gameplay lol)

[brave crown]

@crude oyster

also @crude oyster - formula is in here. It depends on FOV, which probably explains why your results differed from what you expected

[dire geode]

Have you already verify the camera hotfix by now? I already tested and isolated most problems yesterday, but I can give it another test around again to ensure there isn't any additional regression I might've missed

[brave crown]

that would be good. I did test it and noted no issues - i did see there was a force push since then though and havent done another review yet since

[dire geode]

was done to be up-to-date with the master branch...and allowing me to do another multiplayer test.

I did accidentally find a bug unrelated to Camera but Spectator freecam crash, but I notice you got it fixed.

[brave crown]

oh was that one of the 4 camera crash fixes I pushed last night?

[dire geode]

I saw upon first glance

[brave crown]

ah ok

[dire geode]

I already believe the camera freeze during multiplayer should no longer occur...but just in case: I'll perform another round of multiplayer once I'll get back home

[brave crown]

thats perfect thank you 🙂 I think you are correct as well, but I will also test today as a sanity check

[dire geode]

it did help me with the Gamepad PR, after all! Was one of the few things missing before I make it official

I'll have to add the missing bindings for multiplayer just so they can at least navigate around

[obsidian warren]

Speaking of glitches, we can still climb above the top of a ladder... Especially in Ankh, this puts us in weird spots

[brave crown]

Are you referring to the well known ladder glitch with escape or something else?

[obsidian warren]

No. That one

[crude oyster]

Nice! Could it pull in the rest of the values from the clutter like the material, life, explosion, debris, etc. So it's an identical copy without having to look up and punch in all those properties manually? Then we can just quickly change the property we want to change while leaving everything else as default.

[crude oyster]

Ah kk!

Just thought of 1 more thing that would be useful. You have the ability now to go from brush to mesh, could you also do the reverse, mesh to brush? Then we could use a brush that's all invisa texture for the collision and set the mesh to no collide, since collide on meshes can be derpy sometimes and other times we just don't have the hitboxes available to do the collision on the mesh if there's a lot of collide meshes in the map.

[brave crown]

Yeah, that operation is a bit more involved than the brush->mesh direction, but it is something I plan to do, just not immediately

I plan to have import options where you can select the LOD you want to import as well when I do that - the lowest LOD level would probably be the best option for a collision brush per your example

[brave crown]

This was my original plan, but doing that does increase load for each one when the game is loaded - at a technical level, a mesh without the "Destructable" box checked is super light on performance

Perhaps I should have a second button, a checkbox, or an options window popup when you hit the button, so that capability is there but it doesn't always happen

[crude oyster]

That would be helpful since I'd still be putting in the destructible and all the other properties manually most of the time, if there wasn't an option to auto fill all those properties. 😛 How I see me using this a lot is, filling a map will all the clutter details the normal way, then going through the select objects menu and switching all the pieces of clutter over to meshes that don't need player collision and changing them all the weapon only collision. There is a shitton of clutter that has no reason to be full collide that volition should of set to collide_weapon instead of collide_object in the first place, a lot of them are so small the player doesn't even actually collide with them, but they still use up a precious hitbox slot. 😛

[brave crown]

@dire geode did you do your test? I checked it out and it looks good to me

[dire geode]

got occupied with the gamepad pr unfortunately...but i technically tested via gamepad pr (remember, centralized camera system!)

but, if you think it looks good, go ahead and merge it.

[brave crown]

sounds good

[dire geode]

just keep a eye out if there's further reports, but i don't expect issues to solo leveling arise up

[dire geode]

but there's a reason why i didn't do a multiplayer test round today (during that time)

inorder to allow usage of Paddle buttons, a hybrid Secondary Bind approach has been added in...but it's pretty janky due to current Controls Rebind UI limitations at the moment (this system could be gone by the time Menu overhaul rolls out).

as for how jank? if you wanna have two buttons cover the same action: you'll need to press the standard gamepad button first, then bind the same action on the extended buttons inorder to have two button inputs for that work.

annnd Controls Bind UI got a bit of a reorganization to...hopefully...have keyboard and gamepad layer be unique to each other instead of being semi-shared.

should i bring it over to the SDL Keyboard/Mouse PR? ummmmmmmmmm no for now.

anyway i'm currently looking into trying to make RF's Confirm and Cancel actions into a proper actions instead of trying to emlate as keypress, should be one last thing before i request a full review.

[brave crown]

new autodownloader UX that we're cooking (not finished)

less dark lol

[dire geode]

it's...kinda a bit more decoupled from the key press but it should be a bit manageable. The new stuffs has been rolled out now

but now that I got the camera issue sorted (for the most part), I can now put my attention on the Gamepad and SDL KB+M PRs!

[brave crown]

some people used collages for their map screenshots on ff 😛

[crude oyster]

Is that a problem? 🤔 lol. It's hard to give a good overview of a map with only 1 screenshot. 😛

[brave crown]

Haha no not a problem at all just was curious how it would look with the new autodl ux

[crude oyster]

Ah I see. Then I shall keep doing it haha.

Question, @brave crown Do you still plan on adding fixes to DX11 vertex lighting or is that dead to you now? 🤔 For my next update to catan forest I think I'll finally make the debris meshes for the destroyable trees that you've been saying I should do since Catan 1.0. Problem is debris are full bright with vertex lighting and it looks kinda ugly and doesn't match the map lighting. DX9 isn't full bright on debris and DX11 pixel lighting on debris looks really good but I can't use it with this map. 😛

[crude oyster]

Also, that reminds me, this bug where when looking through a lot of semi transparent faces on meshes, they continuously flicker like the game can't decide how it wants to render them. It's been around forever and affects both DX9 and DX11 and has always annoyed me. Any chance of fixing that? 🤔

[desert crown]

i note u fixed this, can you try alt tabbing whilst moving the mouse in a circle to see if when you alt tab the camera continue spins

[boreal ether]

What about cropped images . In the night version I cropped it for faction files so it would fit without the black bars top and bottom

[dire geode]

will check during SDL KB/M branch backport, but will have to be done later today

[desert crown]

👍

[dire geode]

but I can rollover the previous ALT tab fix I have on a separate branch over to the SDL branch...but it has not been tested yet (since I need to backport master branch changes to avoid any regressions)

... technically the SDL KB+M PR is at a more finished state than Gamepad PR, but retroactively isn't due to the multiplayer bot changes. That will have to be heavily vetted

[brave crown]

it would look exactly like you think - a tad stretched because it'd be a 4:3 image stretched to whatever resolution the player is running

[brave crown]

Vertex lighting isnt "dead", though it's certainly not "recommended" in most cases 😛

I can have a look at this - I think it may be an easy fix. Will have to see.

That said, if you're editing the map anyway it may be worth considering if there is an approach that could be taken for this map that could leverage the realtime pixel lighting 👀 since it does look much nicer with realtime lighting

[brave crown]

That annoys me as well. Looks like z fighting. I don't know how difficult it would be to fix, but it is something I plan to look at eventually and see

[crude oyster]

Well it's pretty much good to go now. Got all the LOD's done and custom debris made and all the other tweaks I wanted to do to it. Can't attend this Saturdays GN so won't upload it til probably next week or the following week. The only way I might be able to make the pixel lighting work for it is with the upcoming Direct X filter events, so it can work on both DX9 and DX11. So unless you plan on releasing the new version of AF in the next 2 weeks then I'm going to have to stick with vertex lighting. 😛

[brave crown]

Ah gotcha, I wasn't sure your release timeline 😛

AF 1.3 won't be too long now, but it won't be in the next 2 weeks (despite how excited I am to add RF2 style geo to some of my maps :p )

[dire geode]

looks like I'll have to plan out my PR strategy!

[brave crown]

Well and also just for the record, there of course will be an AF 1.4 after AF 1.3 😛 My point being, if your PR isn't ready - fully implemented and tested - before AF 1.3, there's always time before the next release 🙂

To be honest, there's already so many major features in 1.3 already, there's something to be said about looking forward to major features for 1.4 😛 (and fully supported gamepad+gyro implementation would definitely be one)

[dire geode]

my original plan was to get the Gamepad PR out first, then reserve the SDL KB+M PR for the next major release.

thankfully, the release schedule gave me a better idea on what to do!

The Gamepad PR is...very close to completion, I just need to fix one semi-rare bug with Multiplayer gamepad input freeze and then I can perform a full campaign playthrough as a test drive.

I could squeeze it into 1.3 no prob.

just send that copilot thing to the Gamepad PR and I can start reviewing and do suggested fixes

The SDL KB+M? even tho the PR itself is small compared to Gamepad's, it has to be in 1.4, I think it's too big of a change to potentially disrupt KB+M users despite having the ability to bind Alt key and Mouse 4/5 clicks.

[brave crown]

Copilot review incoming 🙂 I can also get Claude to do a full review later tonight and send you a report

[wraith comet]

Honestly, 1.3 is an insane update.

Like, seriously. When has there ever been so many features in a single update?

[brave crown]

Yeah it really is - I've looked at the major changes in the changelog a few times and I'm kind of blown away at the size of this update. I almost wish it had been spaced out across more than 1 update 😛 but so much good stuff lol

[wraith comet]

You're not gonna hear me complain about a double-stuffed update.

It might go down in history as one of Alpine's best updates ever. One of the best updates we've had in this community period.

[dire geode]

if everything goes well with the Gamepad PR. It'll become even bigger!

[wraith comet]

To add, I have wanted gamepad forever. Thank you.

I don't really use it myself, but it's always better to have it than to not have it. I have a lot of friends who use gamepad.

[gaunt lotus]

its one of those things that gets requested somewhat frequently

[wraith comet]

I come from the PS2 version, so there's a lot of times I've wanted to fire it up with a PS gamepad for old time's sake.

[dire geode]

the control scheme already mimics the default PS2 controls scheme, you'd be right at home.

[gaunt lotus]

i also support trying to get RF's console autoaim and fine aim mode into the PC version for SP, since the combat in the sp was really designed around those mechanics in the first place and they did a bad job tuning the weapons for pc

[dire geode]

it's not exactly 1:1 when it comes to Gamepad support.
no rumble support and Fine Tune action yet but the foundation will be there for Version 1.4 and future releases

[wraith comet]

I want this too, I just know there was some resistance towards it due to MP concerns. But... I don't really think it's that big of a deal, personally. That's just me, though.

[gaunt lotus]

it would need to be SP only for sure

[dire geode]

we can easily auto-off AutoAim for Multiplayer and Gyro Aiming.

[gaunt lotus]

but the way that it worked was not like rot aa or something

[dire geode]

that's won't be a problem

Fine Tune (aka Crosshair Aiming) on another hand...

[wraith comet]

I'm cool with it being SP only. Or like, you can only use it in MP in a listen server with it turned on for bot match. That'd be fine.

[gaunt lotus]

bot match is a whole can of worms

[wraith comet]

Either or. Yeah.

[brave crown]

my argument against this would just be that having an inconsistent MP experience depending on how you launch the game is generally a bad thing (though, listen servers already are a very different experience in many other ways, but that relates to the can of worms nick mentioned)

but I'm fine with fine aim mode for SP

[wraith comet]

Very valid points. I think my perspective on it is that gamepad players are already at a disadvantage, so I don't think them having a little extra help is truly cheating for the most part. Unless they're combining gyro and aim-assist. I do think that is kind of bullshit.

[dire geode]

FineAim mode is not really Aim Assists (we GoldenEye/Perfect Dark now bois) based on testing the PS2 Version, but we can't do AutoAim for Multiplayer no matter what.

I already ensure that Analog Movement is fixed for multiplayer to prevent people from moving slowly

[brave crown]

"cheating" isn't necessarily the term I'd use here, but either way, changing the online MP in that way isn't something I want to be doing (not to mention that it probably would be next to useless in fast-paced MP combat anyway)

[dire geode]

buuuut if you wanna go on-par with Mouse users......

Gyro Aiming is right there 👍

[gaunt lotus]

fine aim probably serves no purpose in MP

[wraith comet]

I agree that gyro is really required if you want to play with KBM users properly.

[gaunt lotus]

in SP it was useful because it removes spread from the weapons

[brave crown]

right

[gaunt lotus]

that's a non-starter in MP so

[brave crown]

Tbh, gamepad ont he whole, while it will be great to have it functional in SP and MP, probably has a much wider audience in SP

[wraith comet]

Actually, I'm kind of curious on something. Would there be value in allowing KBM players to use shift to walk instead of moving at full speed?

You don't move particularly fast in RF unless it's in MP, so I'm not really sure.

[gaunt lotus]

it would completely change how run maps are played

[wraith comet]

I was more so thinking for SP, because MP it does sound like it would very much change the meta of many things.

[gaunt lotus]

because you could manage your speed more efficiently than you can now and maybe do some jumps easier

[brave crown]

also, it's obviously not the same thing, but crouch running serves a similar role to what walking would do

[gaunt lotus]

analog movement also gives you, theoretically, like, the ability to move at 4 m/s... or 4.3 m/s, etc with some control

which u cant do on kb/m without an analog keyboard lol

[wraith comet]

I do agree. It's not like Half-Life where you are basically sprinting at full speed unless you are walking, with more slippery and loose physics.

So that's why I was curious.

[brave crown]

im curious how many games would support that even with an analog keyboard tbh

[gaunt lotus]

some do

FN I think

[wraith comet]

I... kind of really want an analogue keyboard, actually.

[dire geode]

there isn't a Walk binding key, but I don't think it's needed.

besides, you'll always go full-speed at Analog Movement for Multiplayer. You still get 360 degrees movement of freedom anyway

[gaunt lotus]

source games do as well

[wraith comet]

I want to support it in my own game just because I can.

[gaunt lotus]

generally

[wraith comet]

I was thinking the same, just wanted to get some other opinions on it since I know that it was going to be asked by someone else at some point if I didn't.

[dire geode]

the alternative would be to take the Counter-Strike 2 approach of handling Analog Movement (before it got removed), but what we have is good enough.

[gaunt lotus]

i think a walk key that reduced your speed to the same as crouch but didn't crouch you would be useful for efficiently holding angles sometimes

but that's a huge gameplay change

[dire geode]

for now; I would ask everyone here to test Gamepad PR, it'll help me gain feedback and bug reports

I believe you can download it via Git Action, or build it urself.

[wraith comet]

I would but I have an Xbox 360 controller, so it's probably not going to be pleasant to play the game on lol.

[dire geode]

Xbox 360 gamepad should be supported, you lose out on Gyro tho

[brave crown]

I also have a 360 controller lol

[wraith comet]

That's the main thing. I try to avoid FPS games without a gyro controller unless it feels good on it (like Halo) or has some decent aim... whatever.

Halo just feels good on any controller I can throw at it. I still kick ass on Wizard with a 15 year old third-party 360 controller.

[dire geode]

I own all the first party controllers, soooo anything that Steam Input (uses SDL under the hood) already supports in terms of wider controller support, will apply to Gamepad PR

The controller you might have problems dealing with is Switch Pro Controller on Bluetooth.

the hid driver is extremely cursed, no matter what you do.

[wraith comet]

Let me give you a tip then: The old corded Voyee controllers that GameStop sold (not sure if they still do now) are the best third-party ones I have ever used. Period. They are still kicking today and still feel pretty good. All of my first-party ones gave out on me before those two have. They are still working.

I am kind of baffled they are still working.

They were just meant to be throwaway controllers to fill in for me and my cousin's gaming session over the summer.

I literally have the one I always use on my desk right now, and it still works. I play games with it every day.

[dire geode]

thankfully, it does have support for selected 8BitDo controllers, but you might have to put -nojoy on Steam Client launch parameter to avoid Steam Input trying to hijack it (known bug on Steam's side)

GOG and Retail won't be affected by it, it's a Steam version problem.

[wraith comet]

This actually makes me curious about something: Have you bought any of their Genesis controllers?

I can't figure out if I should get an 8BitDo or a Retrobit.

I primarily want to get one for Streets of Rage Remake.

[dire geode]

nope.

[dire geode]

but anyway, 8bitdo controllers that Steam can natively supports, will be natively supported on Gamepad PR

https://www.8bitdo.com/steam/

every other 8BitDo Gamepad will have to rely on emulated Gamepad Types (typically Switch or PS mode)

[crude oyster]

Hmm, rather then stretching could it add letterboxing to match the monitors aspect ratio? 4x3 images on an ultrawide monitor are gonna look pretty bad if they are just stretched to fit. 😛 adding black or coloured bars on the sides would look a lot better. Or if you want to be fancy, have it apply a super heavy blur to that stretched image, then overlay the original aspect ratio one on top, so the letterboxing blends with the image, instead of being a static colour.

[brave crown]

I considered doing that, but letterboxing would end up looking very bad with the other UI/HUD elements. A blur would look much nicer and might be worth looking into

[brave crown]

yeah this probably is a better way to handle images that dont match the game's aspect ratio

[boreal ether]

just had a quick test

lol goober beat me to it by 3 seconds!

i like how it looks without blur, streached is fine

[brave crown]

i your specific case I'd agree stretched looks better - that would ot be the case for a lot of 4:3 shots though 😛 and also definitely won't be the case in IAC's example (ultrawide)

[boreal ether]

honestly i dont even notice that is stretched

[brave crown]

side note the n key on my keyboard is dyig

[boreal ether]

been saying the n word too much

but yeh goober, keep it stretched

i think quake 3 arena uses stretched

https://youtu.be/zrmJgXT8WSY?si=veZghKVRpCc4Rfov&t=168 time stamped

[brave crown]

Personally I might rather it stretched, but I don't think it's a very good UX for the general user. I added a cvar to control it so both can be available - use whatever method you like 🙂

experimenting with RF2-style geo in Abrupt Decay

[boreal ether]

dude wtf, that danger sign. is that new ?

[brave crown]

what do you mean?

the fact that it blows up?

[boreal ether]

yeh, blows up

never seen that before

[brave crown]

yeah that's new in AF 1.3

destructable brushes are no longer limited to just glass faces

[boreal ether]

very cool

btw whats with the aspect ratio? you on a potato pc ?

[brave crown]

i made the window smaller because there's nothing important elsewhere lol

this is my normal window lol

oh also @boreal ether I did fix that crash issue when maximizing the bottom right viewport

and also aliased the tab key to maximize/restore, should be a workflow improvement

[boreal ether]

yeh i got the email. thanks ! what the hell was it?

[brave crown]

literally a 1 that should have been a 2 lol

[boreal ether]

haazaar! aint a clue what im looking at but GJ i asked Raf several times to fix it

[dire geode]

got everything sorted out.

I admit: the list of bugs to fix was a lot smaller than I thought. Now I shall plan on doing a full playthrough soon

[wraith comet]

I can make some Big Hud fine aim crosshairs if you guys want. I was going to do it a few years back with the RL lock-on crosshair, but didn't.

[brave crown]

hey look the UI even works when you run the weirdest aspect ratio known to man lol

text gets a little squished but it works lol

[crude oyster]

I like the blur more then the stretch. User selectable is good. 👍

[dire geode]

been bug-testing a bit during my full playthrough, found at least 2 bugs that got sorted over.

if everything goes well: i'll start preparing to update CHANGELOG.md soon

[dire geode]

still going along with the playtest, and i found the slowest reload in the game

[brave crown]

Huh O.o

How did that even happen 😮

[dire geode]

(analog movement bug)

[brave crown]

OH

[dire geode]

tilt very very slow while you reload and you get that effect.

[brave crown]

is it scaling the frame time rather than the player velocity or something?

[dire geode]

most likely the case here, let me see if i can solve that myself.

ok, that's been solved. you won't be able to pretend Parker is going slomo.

[brave crown]

what was it?

[dire geode]

g_scaling_fpgun_vmesh.

[brave crown]

ahhh

[dire geode]

but i'll need to compare to broken and fixed versions to see the animation differences

just a sec before i roll that fix in

[dire geode]

okey it's been "fixed". this is second funniest bug that came outta the Gamepad PR thus far.

https://github.com/GooberRF/alpinefaction/pull/295/changes/044b752154848d15db6c69ad8b6473e585e8a150

[brave crown]

ohh I see, it was trying to scale the playback of the idle/run anim weapon bob, but it was scaling the playback of everything?

[dire geode]

everything

had to trace down the issue (and asking claude directly this time) and omit non-walking animation. the Alternative Fire animation doesn't exist, so it'll be tied to it as a wrokaround

[brave crown]

If that's the case, you should go through the other action anim types and ensure you got everything that isn't walk or run

off the top of my head I think you're missing IDLE

Actually, maybe just flip the condition - only do it for run/idle anims but not for anything else. That'd probably be more reliable

[gaunt lotus]

weird max payne mod there

nice one

[dire geode]

tried that, didn't work.

but got stuck and won't be able to get that one fixed for the time being. will have to revisit it at a later time.

it's "partially" fixed tho

[glacial storm]

You accidentally created slowmo lol

RF2 looking at this

[crude oyster]

Just seeing this on a computer screen now vs my phone earlier. Are you just creating the blur by stretching up the 250x150 thumbnail the site makes, as the background, then putting the full res photo on top? I guess you're probably pretty limited with what kind of photo manipulation you can do in RF. I think It would look a bit better if you could use the full res photo in the background and apply like a gaussian blur to it. Then maybe add a bit of a drop shadow to the main pic to make it pop a bit more. But I guess for something you'll only see for a couple seconds, it doesn't really matter. 😛

[obsidian warren]

Why am I capped at 200ish FPS even in the menu, and how do I fix it? Running dx11

[prisma dirge]

Advanced Options ?

[obsidian warren]

I did

It didn't help

I have swapped to dx9 and same issue, maybe my 5070 just can't run it

[prisma dirge]

Have only the RTX5060 8GB and never had below 235 FPS

[obsidian warren]

This is all brand new, so I assume something setting'd somewhere. I just don't know where

I'm also downloading as much as I can atm

I paused the download, no effect

I copied the entire folder from the old laptop, which DOES run at 240

[prisma dirge]

console command maxfps shows actual settings and allows changing settings... mabe graphics card is not configured with AlpineLauncher

[obsidian warren]

"Not configured"?

Like this? Or something more?

maxfps console I input 240

[prisma dirge]

No idea, here my settings, RF_120a.exe ?

[obsidian warren]

Mine's always been rf.exe

[brave crown]

there should be nothing in AF that would cap your FPS like that (and if it's "200ish", it's probably not a cap anyway). I would expect that your system is not able to push more frames than that perhaps. If you're running the game in window/borderless, you may want to try exclusive fullscreen - that will virtually always perform better.

The game executable used won't affect this at all

[obsidian warren]

I bought a brand new computer, and copied the game filed into my C:... it should be identical settings from before, which i was running on a 6 year old laptop... I was getting 240 on that

[brave crown]

hmm

curious:

• Does the low FPS persist if you load glass house?
• Do you have VSync on?
• If it's a laptop, is it plugged in?

[obsidian warren]

New one not a laptop

Persists in glasshouse

VSync, Vertical Sync? it's turned off

[brave crown]

Hmm... if you try a lower resolution (like 640x480) does the FPS improve? You are still in exclusive fullscreen right?

[obsidian warren]

I am still in exclusive fullscreen, yes.

I can't even enter the window on such low resolution for some reason, but through the preview window it's sitting on 214, or 210 for 1024x768

I restarted the computer - Sitting on 240 now. I take it 240 is the cap for alpine?

[brave crown]

no, Alpine has no cap generally. MP caps you to 240 fps while in game (unless the server permits uncapped)

but outside of MP - like in the menus and SP, you can set whatever cap you want

[obsidian warren]

All good, maxfps works. The ingame menu didn't

All fixed then I suppose, thanks

[brave crown]

the menu didn't? O.o

[obsidian warren]

No

But who knows, the whole thing seems buggy at the moment, it's probably just my side

My game has never seemed the most stable version of alpine out there in the world

[brave crown]

Oh, the menu item seems to work, but you need to set it and then back out to the main menu before it applies

I should fix that

[obsidian warren]

That would explain it

Not my entire issue, I restarted the game too often for that, just the last one

[brave crown]

Fixed the menu setting now applying immediately in any case 🙂

[crude oyster]

Another annoying mesh transparency bug that has been around forever and affects all renderers is, water, particle emitters, and other meshes, not rendering when you are looking at them through transparency on a mesh. Think this could ever be fixed one day? 🤔

[brave crown]

I won't say no, because I'd like to, but the reality is that blending layering issues like that are really, really tricky to get right while also keeping the number of draw calls within reason (which affect performance)

I don't know the specific cause of that issue in your video, but it is absolutely an issue with blending in layering

[brave crown]

Technically it's not using the thumb from the site, it's using the fullsize image and downscaling it in game 😛 but yes, essentially

Doing gaussian blur in-engine is a performance impacting task and has no real benefit (other than a background looking slightly nicer). Balancing performance with visuals is a necessity here.

Drop shadow may be doable and would probably look nice (well, a fake drop shadow, but ya)

[crude oyster]

Ah I see. Figured it had to be some sort of low res upscale instead of high res blur, because sharp edges and high contrast areas are looking especially rough lol. 😛 No worries, do whatever works best.

[brave crown]

yeah it looks a lot nicer with a drop shadow

[gaunt lotus]

oh yeah

[brave crown]

improved the blurring approach

alright yeah I think this approach is the winner

with or without drop shadow? 🤔 kinda leaning towards without, now that the edge blur is working better, and it has a fade on the outer edges

[crude oyster]

Lol my map is gonna get 100 downloads just from Goober tests, people are gonna think it's popular haha. Yeah new blur approach looks better! I'm undecided on the shadow now, both ways look good haha. I think I need a few more different examples to decide. 🤔

[brave crown]

added "Hold Open" to movers

this is yet another of those issues I've had with the editor for years lol

the behaviour of "Is Door" which makes the mover stay extended as long as the player stands in the zone is super useful for doors and lifts, but "Is Door" does more than that - it makes the portaling engine track the closed status and affects room rendering, which commonly causes issues with being bale to see through the map

"Hold Open" applies only the hold open properties from "Is Door" without any of the other things that switch does

[dire geode]

now it's fully fixed! will be rolling the fix soonish!

sorry Parker, you ain't Neo.

[split sleet]

EAX SOUND ? EWW

was it fixed r smth ?

does it work ?

[brave crown]

EAX sound does work

it's awful

but it does work

[desert crown]

i remember when the option to alternate was added to DF

insta click

[dire geode]

okey fix out now (it's a bit of a hybrid setup to keep the move scaling but don't scale weapon firing/alt switch, etc), alongside dedeicated scoped/scanner sens added for both Joystick Camera and Gyro (but obviously both aren't accessible in the UI due to menu limitations, soooo do it on cmd or .ini)

also the SDL3 CMake is upgraded based on c's suggestions.
which means: the process of updating a version of SDL3 now has one extra step. now you'll need a hash alongside a version change (still easy tho)

i might reconsider changing static with dynamic (will build SDL3.dll), or leverage SDL's Dynamic API to have a hybrid setup (https://wiki.libsdl.org/SDL3/README-dynapi)

i know sdl maintainer recommends Dynamic for future-proofing reasons

[boreal ether]

https://youtu.be/wZcN3sBWCRY?si=sLAcKL-ZbkjvWshH

[split sleet]

ye it sounds like every sound is produced in one shower-room

quite nauseating and unnatural UNDERWATER-heavy

sounds like the world when ure heavily medicated/intoxicated

cant imagine playing mp without it feeling like some ayahuasca ritual

https://tenor.com/view/ew-gross-disgusting-oh-no-yuck-gif-20454736

[dire geode]

....does Alpine Faction supports DSOAL?

https://github.com/kcat/dsoal

[crude oyster]

Does it work with rotate in place keyframes yet? 😛 Old is door wouldn't stay open with rotate in place.

[brave crown]

no, but that's a good idea, if you can enter an enhancement so i dont forget

[crude oyster]

On computers that don't support EAX but have a 5.1 or more channel audio setup, checking off EAX actually just enables surround sound without changing the sounds. Was a game changer for me when I found that out a year or 2 ago lol.

[crude oyster]

Well I did already mention it on your own feature request when you were talking to yourself about creating this feature haha. https://github.com/GooberRF/alpinefaction/issues/87 Do you need another one? 😛

[brave crown]

oh.

no, that's ok lol

@dire geode have still been having some issues with raw/modern input, but I believe I've fixed it now (well, with Claude)

sec

https://github.com/GooberRF/alpinefaction/pull/318

[split sleet]

https://tenor.com/view/split-jean-claude-van-damme-gif-6071669998019538412

is there a thing claude cannot do @brave crown ?

[brave crown]

https://tenor.com/view/no-sonny-i-robot-gif-23790834

[split sleet]

dont EVER let him operate your air fryer

[dire geode]

nice!

I can test it over to the Gamepad PR, ensuring said fix also applies over

[split sleet]

also although im allergic to controllers, this is some EXTRAORDINARY work so far @dire geode , good to have u in community

i hope you will pivot to some other things at some point !

what a time to live in

2026 and new features are coming one after another

thanks to y'all magicians

[dire geode]

once the SDL KB+M PR goes thru, I'll easily move onto other things.

This whole thing is more of my experiments to see what's it's like to implement Gamepad support

soon, you will get ur Mouse 4/5 buttons...

[split sleet]

not that big of an issue tbh ;p

remapping them in mouse software

isnt that hard

[dire geode]

oh and Alt key

[split sleet]

or XXX 3rd party software

but yeah having it bindable in-game

is way more elegant ngl

[viral light]

run a vending machine

[obsidian warren]

I appreciate your disgust, I was wondering why it sounded shit

[dire geode]

thank you for the bug fix. i backported your stuffs over to the gamepad pr, so it'll have the same benefits.

however, i found one more bug related to Modern Camera/Raw Camera/Gamepad, and it's related to security camera. you can move around and move the camera while in security cameras, becomes evident while you're in tutorials.

i haven't figured out how to get that fixed. 😔

[wraith comet]

I wish we could make EAX sound good in this game. It sounds amazing when it's implemented well.

[fast crescent]

@brave crown Could u give us a refresher on how switch server to TDM mode? After CTF matches a few people wanted to TDM and of course since no flags were captured, it went into overtime lol

[brave crown]

lol

[fast crescent]

check out the score btw when i took screen

tie game lol 176-176

[brave crown]

lmao

so, there's no preset for tdm on the server currently

but I can add one

[fast crescent]

oh ok

cool

[brave crown]

vote match 2v2 dm05 tdm

will start a match on dm05 in tdm mode, via the tdm preset

[fast crescent]

sweet

and after will it default back to CTF? or do we need to type vote match 2v2 ctfwlpronofog ctf ?

[brave crown]

default mode for that server is ctf so yes

[fast crescent]

ok nice

[dire geode]

i am still going along with the playtest

[brave crown]

O.o it doesn't restore FP camera?

that's concerning - I'm not sure why the camera transition handling would even need to be touched here? O.o

[dire geode]

btw, this also happens on Mouse Scale's Raw and Modern (but only mouse movement), and i've been trying to get that fixed

but it does restore the FP camera, just press the Use action while using any security cams

[brave crown]

what happens? 😮 it seems fine I think?

Oh I see, it applies rotation to the player entity even when the camera is active

[dire geode]

Yep!

You can easily reproduce it on the tutorial map. Use the security monitor and when it switches to where the player camera is: you can move around and tilt the camera around...when you aren't supposed to do that.

[brave crown]

Yeah

[dire geode]

this bug is a bit worse when using the game controller, as you can move around and pretend you're in a Five Nights at Freddy's

been trying to isolate the bug for a day or two, I can't have gamepad folks accidentally bumping to a wall. 😛

[brave crown]

The camera deltas need sto be suppressed when not in first person

movement inputs should already be suppressed though, that's the concerning part for me - is the controller directly applying velocity to the player entity rather than using the physics-based movement system?

[dire geode]

no idea about the second part. That question goes to Nick.

But, I haven't tested digital movement (uses existing movement action) yet. I should do that later this evening (heading out today to do errands)

[brave crown]

im not quite sure how that question goes to nick? But ok, will be curious the results of your testing for sure 🙂

[dire geode]

anyway, Nick is the one that got analog movement working. I'll give them credit for it!

[gaunt lotus]

i thought i only found the fix for vehicle cameras actually

[dire geode]

Vehicle cams too, the analog movement came later while I was trying to get that working til you came in clutch. I give you credit for that! ❤️

[gaunt lotus]

oh right

the funhook on 0x0049F3C0

that was this @brave crown #1376930844597551146 message

but i'm not sure if its related to current issue

[brave crown]

ah ok I see

yeah this approach probably is the right way to do it, @dire geode you would just need to confirm very confidently that the logic is functionally identical to the stock logic (gates, physics values, etc.) aside from the scalar based on the analog value

[dire geode]

Based on said fix, I believe it's physics-based while I was cross-comparing KB/M movement and analog moves.

it used to be the other way around.

but I should try to suppress camera input on security cams first

[brave crown]

Looking through this function at 0x0049F3C0, I'm wondering if it would be easier for you to just do codeinjections at specific points to inject the analog scalar value rather than attempting to rewrite the function - rewriting the function can also work of course but you'd need to very carefully audit and ensure every single gate and every single calculation is replicated properly

and this is not a simple function

this is certainly the function most if not all of those injections need to be made in, but doing targeted injections I am thinking would make your life easier

otherwise you're effectively playing whack a mole and then you still need to do a full review at the end to make sure you got everything

[dire geode]

i did gave a quick look regarding Analog Movement...and ask Claude AI.

if I understand: it's not needed. it is indeed physics-based movement.

i can confirm that Digital movement blocks movement when using security cams.

but i couldn't get the camera/movement while using security camera fixed. 😔

i'll probably move onto other things for the time being. currently exploring rumble at the moment

[wraith comet]

inb4 Goober uses this as inspiration to add Resident Evil mode to the game.

[dire geode]

but anyway, I got Rumble support in. although: it won't match 1:1 with PS2 for the time being...which can be updated in future versions

Xbox's Trigger Rumble is also supported

but due to current Windows Update regression: GamepadRawInput (under alpine_system.ini) is disabled to avoid trigger input issues (https://github.com/libsdl-org/SDL/issues/13047).

but if you happen to have a Xbox One or Xbox Series X Controller: you can enable it and Trigger Rumbles will be automatically enabled!

thanks, microsoft

additionally: there's a Vibration filter system that reduces overall vibration strength whenever Gyro is in use. it won't try to shake the camera like crazy especially when using DualShock 4 gamepad

[brave crown]

🥳 autodownloader support for waypoint files (AWP) is done

[brave crown]

also, the file upload page will eventually (not currently) have mappers provide waypoint files for their new uploads, so you can optimize your waypoint grid files as much as you want

I will be doing an overview video showing the full function of the waypoint editor as well

[dire geode]

https://tenor.com/view/higuruma-hiromi-hiromi-higuruma-jujutsu-kaisen-jjk-gif-3977056725828219167

i finally got it fixed

so, you'll need to use rf::local_player->view_from_handle (can be found on player.h) to prevent any camera and/or movement while using a security camera

once i test the fix on a master branch, i'll roll out a standalone pr with said fix

[dire geode]

ok said pr has been rolled out. i can't believe the rumble work was a foundation to fix a bug. 😔

[brave crown]

@dire geode btw, needed to support scope/scanner sensitivity modifier for raw/modern ms_scale: https://github.com/GooberRF/alpinefaction/commit/48e98ad333043cd057f5d8ebe4c8dcaa693ab1b0

[dire geode]

huh, thought it already did applied.

[brave crown]

it did not :p

[dire geode]

guess i missed that. 😔

alright, let me go ahead and backport it towards the gameapd scope/scans

[brave crown]

also just to mention - the way you suppressed the security monitor mouse input is not the way the stock game does it for classic input, but I actually like the way you did it more than the stock method 😛

[dire geode]

i simply asked claude ai to trace down the source of the problem (thank you, rumble), then it applied itself. i was about to simply make it exclusive to raw and modern scale, but ultimately let it applied to all of them.

i'm still going along with the playtest, but things are getting pretty stable to the point that i haven't spotted bugs thus far.

The rumble portion is most likely going to still be considered an "initial rumble support." I still need to play the PS2 version in between the PC in order to add more things to add

But right now, what we have is "good enough."

[fast crescent]

@brave crown heads up, wlpronoamp ar setting replaced fusion with ar again

[brave crown]

O.o

wait what @fast crescent ? didnt the previous conversation produce the result that replacing the fusion was expected in one weapon modes?

that is my understanding of how it has been desired (and also how it's always been in such maps)

[fast crescent]

in rail only

[brave crown]

uhhh

I mean the approach really shouldnt be different in some one weapon modes from others, I would think 😛 But I'm good with whatever the consensus is among active players in the matchmaking channel - 1s

[fast crescent]

wl ar always had fusion, and when i asked about you making a wlpronoampar u said to just type ar after ctfwlpronoamp -then i noticed fusion wasnt there but c4 was etc, then u replaced ar on bridge with fusion

that was a litle while back, we jsut recently had the discussion about ankh rail that still had fusion

ringing any bells?

[brave crown]

I asked the question in #rf1-matchmaking - I'm good with whatever the consensus is among people who provide feedback 🙂

When we spoke the other day, I changed the setting because I thought it was a mistake 😛 I understand why the current state is the way it is, it's because of the change the other day

[fast crescent]

😉

[brave crown]

When we spoke, you made me aware that the rail preset had the fusion and shouldn't (I agree), and I changed rail, ar, and pr presets at that point

[fast crescent]

do u remember changing it from ar to fusion for ar setting?

before that?

[brave crown]

I don't, but I'd believe it happened - I make a lot of config changes, no way I can remember each one 😛

[fast crescent]

ah ok lol

i pinged ya in DM

[brave crown]

be sure to give your thoughts in #rf1-matchmaking when you get a chance btw 🙂 and if anyone else had thoughts, they should as well

[fast crescent]

yes

[brave crown]

I think water was the last big thing to do for waypoint auto generation (I almost forgot about it lol)

[green cobalt]

@gaunt lotus would do donuts on blasted canyon

[silk tinsel]

Please tell me i'm dreaming.. vehicles in multi?

[zinc quiver]

lol wat inda
that would actually be so good on micro maps ><

[glacial storm]

Ohhhh..

Oh my...

[dire geode]

gave it another shot...

there's no scrollbar ui yet (i don't think af menu gadgets supports it...?), but the user don't need to rely on console commands or .ini

i did try to ensure it supports the other panels (as a option for now, since i have not test that out)

(just ignore text overlap)

[dire geode]

all Gamepad settings are officially locked in! there won't be anymore new additions after this! (unless there's bug) 🥳

[crude oyster]

Time to make a UT04 Onslaught map!

[dire geode]

Flick Stick has been finalized, and is now promoted to a official input feature. 🥳

you might notice the processed of movement has been sped up and is less smoothed out. it should be closer to GyroWiki's instructions.

[prisma dirge]

Bots are still down?

[fast crescent]

yeah, they were about to come back but i went apeshit and beat them into submission....

https://tenor.com/view/ko-bloodsport-ray-jackson-gif-6995092887858229897

[prisma dirge]

AFaction Bots still working

[fast crescent]

guess i have another date....

jk lol

😉

[brave crown]

bots in FF servers are currently down because of this: #redfaction message

[fast crescent]

way to spoil the fun of my BS fake news narrative bro....😇

[wraith comet]

I believe you. I can't believe the FactionFiles staff are trying to cover this up to save the shattered pride of the bots. That's shameful.

[brave crown]

@crude oyster

[crude oyster]

Awesome! 😃

[brave crown]

So, the stock editor does just load the mesh filename and textures, it doesn't bother loading the other properties, but I decided against making it a second button or a setting (like I had originally planned) - the tbl parsing isn't a heavy load here, it's just a few KB extra memory usage, and on a modern system I'm really not concerned lol

Was also a nice excuse for me to write a full tbl file parser for the editor, so now if I ever need to parse other tbl files in Alpine I have a super easy way to do it 😛

[brave crown]

@boreal ether I can't find the place where you mentioned it, but that annoying issue where sprites/coronas flicker when you approach when in d3d11 is fixed now

Also just... roadmap update for everyone. Here's the current plan for AF 1.3:

• Beta will be posted in this thread in the next few days, would love for anyone who is interested to test it as much as possible and report any problems (especially any regressions). I'm not expecting anything major, but if there is anything major obviously I want to get it fixed up before the full 1.3 release
• Currently eyeing mid April for the "proper" AF 1.3 release, depending of course on the complexity of any potential issues identified during the beta

[desert crown]

is white names on spectated POV on killfeed?

[brave crown]

i cant remember if that is already done or not to be honest lol

[desert crown]

it wasn't in last saturday

[gaunt lotus]

i think i had a branch with that change

but cant remember

i'll try to find it

dont think it was complicated

[desert crown]

the first version had it

but the second one it was gone

iirc

[gaunt lotus]

by white names you mean that you see the "you killed xyz" messages in white as their pov right

[desert crown]

yeah

[gaunt lotus]

ah ok

[desert crown]

easier to notice instead of it being green

@gaunt lotus but like

i don't see "you killed"

i'd see "Goober killed" etc in white

aslong as im spectating them

[dire geode]

speakig of that....

does pre-rendered cutscene videos works?

[brave crown]

What do you mean by "works"? Bik videos do play correctly, yes, if thats what you mean?

[dire geode]

oh, ok. i'll double-check in my end, just-in-case

[brave crown]

what behaviour are you seeing?

[dire geode]

ok, i think i know why...

it's a DirectX 11 issue

it doesn't play the bik videos.

[brave crown]

O.o

which video are you having trouble with

d3d11 plays summoner trailer fine for me

[dire geode]

the opening intro

[brave crown]

plays fine for me

can you try on the current master and see

[dire geode]

that summoner trailer doesn't work for me...

oh, i'm actually in current master build as we speak

oh my god nvidia i'm going to kill

[brave crown]

Did you delete the bik videos from /data/movies

a lot of people do that to stop them from playing

[dire geode]

nope, didn't bother to remove it...

but i know why.

it's a NVIDIA GPU problem. I tested with my integrated AMD graphics and video playback works fine.

i'm RTX 3070 (laptop edition), by the way

[gaunt lotus]

oh interesting

i wonder if the bik playback is trying to happen on ur integrated or vice versa

ah i need more coffee

[dire geode]

playback works on integrated amd graphics, and i'll quickly assume this problem doesn't happen on AMD or Intel dedicated GPU

[gaunt lotus]

i dont think this is happening on dedicated nvidia gpus either

it must be something with integrated nvidia gpus

i could test with my laptop that has a 3060 but it's 2000 miles away from me at the moment...

lmao

[brave crown]

hell of a commute

[brave crown]

now yes

[gaunt lotus]

o u did it

cool

[brave crown]

yeah was just 2s

[desert crown]

[dire geode]

yea i think a bink.cpp path will need to be fixed.

might be the best way to get it play nicely with DX11 NV laptops, potentially

[brave crown]

hm?

[desert crown]

to be clear the Biks are working for me too

1660 Super

[dire geode]

I actually tried looking into it.

I got it working but video doesn't wanna fill-on da whole screen.

I'll relook into it later

[boreal ether]

@brave crown you know the new mesh object added to RED objects. is it possible to use custom .v3d meshes that show up in the editor? if so, how?

[brave crown]

yes

[boreal ether]

how !?!?!

[brave crown]

put the meshes in user_maps\meshes

[boreal ether]

oooooooooooooooooooooo

[brave crown]

and then use tools->reload meshes to load them

they won't display until you do that

also if they use custom textures those textures will need to be in user_maps\textures in order for you to see them in the editor

[boreal ether]

i dont have that option ?

[brave crown]

it only exists in AF 1.3, along with the mesh objects themselves

[boreal ether]

ah ok

omg, it works !

[brave crown]

🥳

[boreal ether]

dude ive just been making a map that 2/3 of the map is custom meshes and ive just stumbled on this. damn !

[brave crown]

:p

now, please do keep in mind that you should not be making maps on the dev builds. The format can change and that can lead to levels becoming corrupt

test the features yes but don't rely on it as the "good" copy of your rfls

(and yes I know I am working on a new version of Abrupt Decay with the dev build of AF 1.3... but if I break my own map that's my own fault 😛 I don't want to accidentally break anyone else's)

[boreal ether]

i cant use that editor on my map anyway, wont load it even if render everything is toggled

[brave crown]

oh you havent updated your dev build in a while have you?

That issue should be fixed now

[boreal ether]

thats the one i got

[brave crown]

Either way, I will have a beta out for everyone to test in a day or so, so you can tell me at that point if anything isn't working right 🙂

Ahh ok yeah that was almost a month ago. A lot has happened since then :p

[boreal ether]

yeh, ill wait till then. no sweat

[brave crown]

Woohoo, finally fixed the UV unwrap window breaking after launching a fullscreen application lol

Goober from 2008 is very happy right now

That bug has been a pain in my ass for a long time lol

[silk tinsel]

the one that shows green screen instead of the texture itself?

[brave crown]

Yeah

[desert crown]

wait is that different to the one that shows a white screen when you open another RED

[brave crown]

I've not noticed that particular trigger for it, but I would expect so

[desert crown]

ah ok

uv unwrap window being white is big sadge XD

but fair enough

[desert crown]

bug sir idk if its base game or DX11 or something, but legs invisible

[brave crown]

Iirc that's because there's a mover on top of that water but if you could test some other scenarios and let me know the behaviour that would be great 🙂

Alpha movers having that issue is expected though

[desert crown]

its just this map afaik

havn't seen it elsewhere in water

[brave crown]

Check the map in red

[desert crown]

been on dx11 for what, couple months now?

[brave crown]

I think it's a mover but not sure

Also check if it happens in dx9

[desert crown]

okie dokie

happens on DX9 aswell so yeah must be what u said

[brave crown]

Probably yeah but can you verify it's a mover

[desert crown]

is there a reason he did that or?

[brave crown]

🤷 my guess is that he wanted the water to look deep but without moving the player to the swim movemode

So the real water level is way lower

[desert crown]

ahhh

[desert crown]

oh yeah, i forgot to post this here as a reminder

[brave crown]

@desert crown was this reproducible? Or did it only happen once

[desert crown]

uhhh

is it on a server i could check

k its on wilsons

hm seems to be working now

[brave crown]

It was probably a connection problem the first time - part of the image got received but not the full thing

[desert crown]

fair fair

[boreal ether]

Does alpha work in decal settings. not having any luck, seems to work in editor but not game.

[brave crown]

It does in v304 levels made with af 1.3, not before that

[boreal ether]

ok

[boreal ether]

You know the new alpine 1.3 will compile all textures etc. does this include music too?

[brave crown]

Not currently, no

There are several sound workflow improvements I want to make in a future Alpine release (probably 1.4), and that's one of them

[crude oyster]

Would it be possible to add the windows quick access shortcuts to RED's open and save dialogues? 🤔 (Most programs open/save dialogue vs RED open/save dialogue) Would be handy if I could just click my shortcuts when I need to instead of manually having to navigate to the locations all the time. 😛 The address bar at the top would be useful too for quickly pasting the directory I want to go to.

[brave crown]

I'm not sure what would be involved in doing this, but I would agree that it would be an improvement. In the interest of preventing scope creep, not going to consider it for 1.3 but definitely do enter an enhancement req on the repo so I can look into it later on

[crude oyster]

Just came across some strange behaviour with mesh objects. Changed the boat in Catan - Hill to a mesh object, to see if it still had collsion when hidden. Currently the boat is a square plastic crate on a keyframe, I changed it to mesh object using tools--->select object--->to mesh object. It appears to change successfully, although disconnects everything that was linked to it and has a new UID. However looking into the keyframe group, the old square plastic crate is still in it although not visible and not selectable and all its event links gone. The mesh object was not added to the keyframe group. Saving and restarting RED, now both the mesh object and square plastic crate are visible and selectable.

[brave crown]

how old is the dev build you're using?

there was an issue with deleting things via to mesh object a little while ago, should be fixed now

[crude oyster]

the 34 one u sent me 5 days ago

[brave crown]

ah yeah I think that was just before I patched it

sec ill send you a new one

disconnecting links and getting a new UID, that part is expected and intended though

not properly removing the clutter is not

[brave crown]

It won't be for this release, but making gas regions work is on my todo list for 1.4

which is basically volumetric fog

If you mean replace distance fog with volumetric fog... that's not going to be happening 😛

Primarily because it would make every map that uses fog (which is probably 80+%) look very different, but also because it would nuke performance

If a mapper wants to use large gas regions once they work though, they can certainly do that

‼️ I've finally worked out how to fix the uncrouching issues in multiplayer (how you shove your head through geometry overhead and can shoot/see through it)

Turns out a stock game bug in the physics interpolation code was mangling the orientation value of entities in MP

[desert crown]

yooo

thats big for run maps aswell

cuz it totally fucks with crouch zones

[brave crown]

(the uncrouch issue was actually 2 different issues, but that orientation mangling one is one of them)

[desert crown]

notably acers seelka 2

cuz if u get uncrouched u can't hold W 😭

[crude oyster]

Just having fog that renders as fully opaque at the end of the far clip instead of just derendering the geometry and showing the skybox, would be a nice fog upgrade. Can't really have thick fog now on a map with a skybox, without it looking awful. 😛

[brave crown]

The issue with that is the clipping distance - in theory decoupling the clipping distance from the fog far clip could do that, but it would mean a performance hit because you'd be rendering stuff very far away - fog is both a performance boost and a visual effect 😛

But yeah, letting the mapper configure both values independently is a good idea

It's possible a D3D11 shader approach might be able to do something similar for a reasonable performance cost, I'd need to look further into it

or if you'd like to look into it and develop a design document and/or a PR, that would be far better 😛

[desert crown]

Still waiting for Shaders so we can do the Retro PS1 Horror Grafix

[gaunt lotus]

i mean u got shaders

[desert crown]

nah nah

[crude oyster]

That would be neat if you could decouple them. I don't think I've ever used fog to try to increase performance, I usually set the far clip further then the length of the map anyway, to avoid the skybox issue, so everything is always rendering anyway. But I can see some people wanting to limit render distance to increase performance.

[desert crown]

i want Geothermal to look like this

[brave crown]

13 shaders currently fwiw :p

[desert crown]

wut

[brave crown]

Yeah it becomes a much more viable strategy with cleverly made skyboxes that feature the fog colour :p

the Aesir section in Kava did that

[brave crown]

these are the shaders in alpine currently

[desert crown]

well tf do i do with these

are they console command

[gaunt lotus]

actually yeha

like half are

lmao

[brave crown]

well ok yes lol

[gaunt lotus]

but its not like reshade

[brave crown]

they're not fullscreen effects filters, which I assume is what you're referring to

[desert crown]

probably

idk what shaders are at a deep level

[brave crown]

shaders are a fundamental graphics pipeline element, they're not only used for that

[desert crown]

i just know they change shit

[boreal ether]

i want shiny surfaces

[viral light]

this is a crime on the same severity as disabling the ladder glitch

but it is nice for getting through vents at least

[brave crown]

oh yeah I forgot to mention - did some upgrades to the server list display

[brave crown]

Was planning to post the beta tonight but got caught up making new features lol

(as an aside, @crude oyster the issue you reported with meshes still having collision when hidden is now fixed 😛 )

Beta of AF 1.3 will be posted here tomorrow morning for everyone to test out if they want to 🙂

[split sleet]

YES GOOBER IS GOING TOO FAR

SACRILEGE !

https://tenor.com/view/shrek-pitchfork-kill-burn-stake-gif-11227021

[brave crown]

Alpine 1.3.0-beta3 - Apr 7, 2026

IMPORTANT: Please use this beta version to test the latest in-development Alpine Faction features. DO NOT replace your stable Alpine Faction installation with this beta.

As always, this is a beta build and may have bugs. PLEASE let me know if you find any bugs or other issues so I can deal with them.

Mappers:

• Please DO NOT release any maps made with this beta. Feel free to test out the features in this version of the editor of course, but do not work on your primary level file in this editor. Use the stable AF v1.2.2 editor for that.
• Please be warned that the possibility does exist that maps saved with the editor in this beta may become corrupt. It's not likely at all, but it's possible. Keep regular backups.

Notable changes in this build since the last beta:

• Added bots and waypoint editor
• Added Mesh, Corona, and Note objects
• Added RF2-style (brush-based) geomod and non-glass breakable brushes
• Revamped autodownloader UX
• Promote D3D11 renderer to recommended
• Full mesh shadows
• Realtime per-pixel lighting
• Gamma support in D3D11
• Player outlines
• Lots of new RED functionality
• Spectate mode improvements
• Many graphical fixes and resolved crashes

Changelog: https://github.com/GooberRF/alpinefaction/blob/4fab338632b0d3d2198712d918c14ceda6093cf9/docs/CHANGELOG.md

IMPORTANT: If you run into issues, if something doesn't work quite right, or if you crash when using this beta - PLEASE let me know (and provide a crash zip if possible) in this thread so I can get it resolved before the "proper" AF 1.3 release.

[obsidian warren]

Works for me

[prisma dirge]

Tested with the server of the new beta version.
As sooon as I enable railgun on a server, sometimes all bots are disconnectiong and own RF Session get also RedCross Comp Sign and I need to rejoin.
Only when the rail-gun is used in maps. What maybe the reason?

[brave crown]

As sooon as I enable railgun on a server
Can you expand on what this means? What specific config are you using?

From the screenshots it looks like you're trying some rail only mode?

[prisma dirge]

I have sent you my configuration. Beside this, the new version is great, I am enjoiyng the shadows below each item now.

[brave crown]

oh @prisma dirge I see what's going on here. I will work on a fix for it

As a workaround for now, you can just disable gibbing for "all_damage_types" and you won't have the problem

EDIT: Pushed a fix

[boreal ether]

i noticed you cant delete the new mesh object while in group mode. is this happening to you goober ?

[boreal ether]

have you got an example on how this works: Add -smoothlights level editor command line argument to use experimental lightmap baking method

[brave crown]

the 2 most noticable effects currently are:

• No (or less) sharp edges on portal lines when calculating lights
• No sharp edges on portal lines separating rooms with amb light room effects

[dire geode]

been slacking of lately (got busy with another project), but i should resume with my playtest. i believe it'll be the last of the tests that I needed to do for Gamepad PR before official merge

i got to the vehicles and yea it's indeed janky. it can get even more janky when you combine with the Angle-based Camera system, and i'm afraid to untangle a bit of the jank. 😔

[crude oyster]

Couple things:

• I'm still able to walk on the hidden boat on Catan Hill. Does that fix for hidden meshes only apply to new maps? 🤔
• Is there any way to turn gibbing back on for listen servers or is that just gone now?
• Any interest in fixing the RF bug that clutter and mesh objects can't have both debris and an explosion vclip? (if an explosion vclip is in its properties, the debris setting is just ignored)

[brave crown]

1. Yes - pretty much anything gameplay affecting will be done that way to not change existing levels
2. I could make it base it on your local cl_gorelevel setting at listen server launch
3. Yeah I meant to look into this one just lost track of it with everything else. It's probably straightforward though. Will have a look

[crude oyster]

1. Ah, that sucks. 😛 Is there actually a map out there that uses derpy invisible partial collision as part of the map design...? 🤔
2. That would be the best way to do it.
3. KK. 👍

[desert crown]

you'd be surprised

run maps do alot of invisible platforming

[brave crown]

Is there actually a map out there that uses derpy invisible partial collision as part of the map design...?
No idea, but conceivably there could be - just as a matter of principle I always prefer to make gameplay-affecting changes gated so they only affect new levels. It's a lot safer, and avoids running into an unexpected instance of something being randomly broken

[desert crown]

granted its mostly brush work

but still

its possible

that said im fairly sure theres a few micro maps out there that probably do some weird shit too

with invisible floors etc

[crude oyster]

I'd assume maps would use brushes with invisa texture. Hiding meshes is very inconsistent with where and when a player will collide with them and would be very messy.

[desert crown]

oh im not attempting to say they are meshes, but people have gotten creative with it in the past so never say never kinda deal

[brave crown]

I have seen run maps use mesh collision for obstacles. I can't think of a case where they've been hidden/unhidden, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's been done

[crude oyster]

Can we mass search rfl's yet for specific things? Search all multiplayer rfl's for unhide event, then we can dig through them to see if any use hidden mesh collision as a part of the map design. 😛

[brave crown]

that would be a pretty large list I think

lots of people have used unhide for coronas

(there's an actual Corona object now though 😛 )

[desert crown]

it would be about 99.999% easier to do a new upload with the replaced mesh 😛

[crude oyster]

Perhaps, but I probably wont. I've got a few maps with this bug, but it's not really an issue worth making a bunch of new versions for. 😛

[desert crown]

fair enough ^^

[fast crescent]

https://tenor.com/view/chip-nxk-neuroxik-psh-kicking-gif-1514012758219765433

[crude oyster]

@brave crown Did you give up trying to fix the new greater then ~45k faces lightmap calculation issue, where it's just setting random faces to full bright instead of crashing when there's too many faces, or will that fix be in the full release?

If its not going to be fixed in the full release, I really think you should just bring back the crash. At least with the crash you know right away you need to start lowering face count on some geometry or convert some geometry to keyframe brushes or meshes and stop adding on to the map.

With the new bug you wont know when you've passed the limit, and the lighting on areas of your map you're not currently working on could be getting corrupted without you noticing. When you do finally notice you will have have no idea when it started and will have to do some major back tracking. It could also only be a couple faces over the limit so you would only have a couple random full bright faces, and in that case you might not even notice until after releasing the map, which would be even more annoying.

With this new bug we're basically going to have to check every inch of the map after every lighting calculation when a map reaches ~40k faces and beyond, which is going to be super annoying. At least with the old crash, you could be assured that if the lighting calculated without crashing, your lighting wasn't secretly being corrupted beyond RED's typical lighting derpyness, and you could continue adding stuff. The bug is much worse then the crash it fixed. 🫤

[thorny pumice]

That's what she said.

[brave crown]

@crude oyster didn't give up on it, but did forget about it with the million other things I've been working on :p I do want to resolve that before the full release

[brave crown]

Oh also I'm 99% sure I fixed the explosion + debris issue, just haven't had time to test it yet

[dire geode]

i went back and decides to finalize everything. updated the scrollbar functionality, just to address one last major issue

there's now a scrolling ui in place. right now: it's unfinished as i'll need to get the button drawing fixed up first...and figure out how to dress up a bit so it'll fit the rest of the menu design

[dire geode]

ok, the ui scrolling function is now ready to go, alongside uniforming the button text ui (sorry i won't do the same for the rest of the misaligned button text)

but don't expect the scrollbar ui to fit in the rest of the menu.

[dire geode]

@brave crown oke, i believe the Gamepad PR is ready to be merged at anytime. but i do need a quick question in advanced.

given the current pace of AF 1.3 release schedule, I'm not confident enough that it'll be "ready" in time (despite being "ready"), and I really do like it if more people get to test in advance.

depends on AF 1.3 Beta's direction: there's a likely chance that Gamepad support might be moved to Alpine Faction 1.4 instead. ultimately, it's up to you.

[dire geode]

gave a bit of thought.

AF 1.3 is too big to be included. I wanna target Gamepad support for AF 1.4.0 instead (or next release candidate after 1.3.0).

I think it works much better as a major headline feature alongside SDL KB/M...although, it'll come after Gamepad gets merged first (maintaining both simultaneously is a pain)

[brave crown]

@dire geode apologies for the radio silence - haven't been ignoring you, I'm actually travelling until Saturday. But yes I agree entirely - the time for the review and everything of this feature will definitely make it not practical for 1.3, and it's better to split up major features between releases - 1.3 is already quite heavy on major features as is :p

[fallow valley]

seeing the bot names just have "bot" at end of the username is slightly infuriating to see

could it just be at start of the name upper case

source engine games would also signify bots by having the ping field on the bots be just BOT but pretty sure u can't do dat without breaking legacy clients methinks

[viral light]

I complained about that too. It's not very visually distinct and it makes it look like the name is literally "Masako bot"

My suggestion was smaller font and all caps BOT

Could totally display bot instead of ping, although ping is still relevant info for AF bots since they are remote clients

[gaunt lotus]

this part u def cant do because the bots in this actually have a real ping on account of being essentially a headless client

even if they run on the same system as the server itself they'd still have a "ping" in terms of the sim delay/tickrates so... yeah

[boreal ether]

is it not possible to put cutscene camera on keyframe using anchor marker? just tried with no luck, unless im doing something wrong

[brave crown]

That won't work today no, it's not something I've looked into to date

[dire geode]

time to share another funny moment during gamepad pr work today.

i'm good at naming things.

[boreal ether]

yo goober, where has the dynamic purple glow gone from the rocket launcher. there should be a purple dynamic light on the rocket as it flies. its none existent

[brave crown]

There is one from the projectile in flight

[brave crown]

I am not sure how practical a smaller font is off the top of my head. But all caps BOT probably would be better

[boreal ether]

Yes

[brave crown]

Yeah. I mean there is one :p

If it's not showing up that would be a bug but i'm 99.9% sure I saw it working fine a few days ago

[boreal ether]

had a slight glitch that isn't concerning in RED created the solid brush and after it build the brush had that darkened scorch mark all over it like when you geo with no lightmaps. i placed a mesh object, select the mesh i wanted. didnt load so i went to tools to reload meshes, still didnt work. copied and deleted the mesh and then pasted and the mesh showed. created the brush and that when it showed darkened brush. here is a picture but not of the glitch

[brave crown]

@crude oyster listen server gibbing now relies on local config, and also both debris and explosion vclips play for clutter

[brave crown]

I'm not quite sure what issue you're describing? 😮

@crude oyster any chance you have an rfl on hand you can send me that had the ~45k face lightmap issue

[crude oyster]

Just this test terrain with 48k faces. #workshop message

Could also just take original catan and delete the 4 statue keyframes to put it over the limit.

[brave crown]

progress 👀

[crude oyster]

Awesome!

[boreal ether]

@brave crown did you make a fade event? #workshop message

[brave crown]

@crude oyster I need to understand the group format better before I could reliably add the new mesh objects with this operation to the group, but I am now skipping the deletion of the clutter if the clutter being deleted would have emptied a moving group. So in an instance like this, the mesh object is still made just the clutter never gets deleted, you'd need to go add the mesh to the moving group and delete the clutter manually after that. Not ideal, but at least it doesn't mean people will accidentally be nuking their moving groups

[brave crown]

That hasn't been implemented yet, no

[brave crown]

So... update on this.

It's unfortunately probably not viable at this point to make the lightmap calculation in this case display properly in the editor (which uses D3D8/9). I do have the lightmaps saving properly to the rfl now and displaying properly in game (D3D11), but the preview in RED still shows the seemingly random fullbright faces

This isn't an ideal situation, but it's far better than a crash, and also far better than the broken lightmaps being reflected in the game that way. I'm not totally comfortable with the current state, but I'm comfortable enough with it for now

It's also something that is going to happen extremely rarely anyway - most maps will never have this many faces for calculation.

And actually one last thing - this isn't actually an issue with faces, it's an issue with surface groups. Coplanar faces are merged together when surface groups are created. The only reason this terrain is so drastically affected is because basically 0 faces are coplanar with organic-looking terrain 😛

Also, the limit isn't 45k, it's ~32766

[brave crown]

Actually you know... realistically this is never going to be used given everything I've above. I might revert it just because it's a lot of code complexity for basically 0 payoff. Hm

Yeah actually I think for now I'll just revert this to the known behaviour from 1.2.2 and then revisit it when it can perhaps eventually be done fully (probably will require d3d11 support for RED lol)

[crude oyster]

Yeah better to just let it crash RED then have lighting that is going to be borked in both RED and DX9 in game. As for most maps not having that many faces, a good chunk of my maps hit the limit and will definitely continue hitting it on future maps haha. 😛 So limit is 32k after coplanar faces are merged? I guess in most cases maps are gonna have a good chunk of coplanar faces, probably why I don't end up hitting it until the early 40k's.

[brave crown]

@boreal ether

[boreal ether]

very cool, great work goober !

this would be so cool for the credits at the beginning of kava fade in..hold for 5 seconds..fade out

what is the scale on alpha? 255 ?

[brave crown]

yes, 1-255

[boreal ether]

weird to me that, noticed it in decal settings. would have thought percent would have been better.

[brave crown]

Well alpha channel values are always 0-255, specifying as a percentage wouldn't make much sense - it'd have to be converted to 0-255 anyway

[boreal ether]

oh that makes sense now

[boreal ether]

Is there no way to hide and unhide corona's even for new alpine corona ?

if not, ill just put it on a keyframe and snap it out of the level

[green cobalt]

howdy. when throwing a c4 mine on a bot, is it possible to have the bots in multiplayer react with the same behavior as the npcs/bots in single player?

[brave crown]

LOL

[green cobalt]

that could be fun

[brave crown]

Well, no it's not practical because bots are MP players, just AI-controlled players. It would be hilarious though lol

[green cobalt]

darn

[gaunt lotus]

we could lock players into that animation lol

[brave crown]

cl_berserkminers

[green cobalt]

imagine watching mine flying while locked into that animation

[brave crown]

not currently, but there may be tomorrow

[brave crown]

Has anyone noticed any levels with broken skyboxes in d3d11? (ie. looks like youre looking into the void or if it has fog, the fog just takes up the whole skybox and the actual skybox doesnt render)

I know of 2 levels that have the issue so far:

• dm-rfu-friday.rfl
• DM-Blunderscannon~~.rfl

but there may be others I havent seen yet

[boreal ether]

noticed the round track in play mat at night is dark in 1.3 beta where as in previous version its lighter (as it should be) FYI that track has a 32bit texture on it. only way i could get the map to run on dx9 for some reason it makes it more stable. here is a picture of the dark track in 1.3beta

[brave crown]

that's interesting... I just tested that in 1.2.2 and depending on how you turn your camera, it shows the same way, or shows proper vertex lighting

I wonder what is different about that mesh that causes that to happen for it but seemingly no other meshes? O.o

[brave crown]

a bit more clear