Alpine Faction

[dire geode]

this is a re-enactment of a bug i encounter while getting analog movement working

[viral light]

lol

[split sleet]

holyyyy

new speedrun meta confirmed

[desert crown]

can we have that for speedrun

thanks

[split sleet]

buying controller online asap

this is looking great ❤️

holyyy

[brave crown]

hang on, where's the problem with this?

[desert crown]

i like how we all want the fun move tech

[split sleet]

im so hyped to see first playtest /demo / map

[desert crown]

I trained u all well

[split sleet]

mario level should be done first

i want to see parker getting to that last pole

xdddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddd

https://tenor.com/view/super-mario-bros-strip-pole-so-retro-retro-mario-dance-gif-6304951393406433418

[brave crown]

in all seriousness, honestly this seems like you're on the right track lol. Just need to apply the accel/velocity constraints that are applied to digital movement of course 😛 It does increase gradually in a way that seems to be right... it just doesn't stop doing that 😛

[desert crown]

Technically you could build it - only problem is we don't have goomba stomp physics 😛

[gaunt lotus]

the real issue with analog movement will probably be the animations in multiplayer

[split sleet]

we do

[desert crown]

?

[split sleet]

have stomp physics in rf

i was stomped in rf plenty of times

[desert crown]

omg

😂

[split sleet]

xddddddddddddd

[brave crown]

these are built into @gaunt lotus though, they're not a stock feature

[gaunt lotus]

we can make a real speedrun version of the game

[desert crown]

😂

[gaunt lotus]

locked impossible with 4x NPCs

[split sleet]

https://tenor.com/view/super-mario-odyssey-mario-roar-yell-yelling-gif-14736475

are u insinuating nick is kidnapping princesses ?

waaaa

[brave crown]

I did start work on a mod years ago called Kaizo Mars World

[split sleet]

big words

[desert crown]

...

CAN'T YOU LET ME HAVE MY JUST MADE VICTORY

[split sleet]

ye impossible bullet hell kind of game

https://tenor.com/view/touhou-flandre-bullet-hell-danmaku-beautiful-gif-20350364

[desert crown]

its already bullet hell

you havn't seen the video

[split sleet]

those balls are rail driver npcs

[desert crown]

😭

[split sleet]

xddddddddddddddddddddddd

[split sleet]

i dont want to see the video in which ure doing any% impossible faster that ive did any% easy

that would be too saddening experience

https://tenor.com/view/crying-emotional-tears-sad-lonely-gif-17442797

[desert crown]

time to run the game brother

[split sleet]

pfff , wait till we will have RF 2D with SHAVING TIMEFRAMES BRO

GOING THROUGH WALLS WITH PERFECT INPUTS

xddddddddddd

[desert crown]

you gonna make me a 2D RF map with a ... bus.. so so speak? 😄

[split sleet]

yes lets make timeframe = busstop analogy

xddddddddddddddddd

[desert crown]

🤣

[split sleet]

omg such good things are happening rn in rf

Goober is making all the hardwork but i will always be telling around ive did the great visualistion/concept contra video that FUELED this creative process

ohh

imma milk this hard

xdddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddd

[desert crown]

Tell you what

once its ready

make me a single level 2d SP map

we'll have fun

no memes

just an actual fun map

[split sleet]

bro i couldnt make proper box map in RED

bateman wont survive seeing more maps made by me

ik for a fact he did some counceling/seen a psychologist after seeing tilefrenzy

dont blame him

fuck even ladder is reversed there

not to mention the spawns

[boreal ether]

yeh why the hell is 2 servers hosting your map. 1 is enough

[split sleet]

it was supposed to be fast butchered project

just to proof of concept

[split sleet]

people like bad stuff what can i say

xdddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddd

[gaunt lotus]

pretty soon you can just play against bots for noob farming practice

[split sleet]

u guys are making the crafty /fancy meals

while all the folks are want is

JUNKFOOD content

[boreal ether]

you know, thats a really good analogy

[split sleet]

RED is hard , u need to start from the beginning , learn basics and move on

skipping steps and rushing into making stuff

[desert crown]

Ill take Fancy food with a side of Junk (Liq map with goober bots)

[split sleet]

yields ...well

xddddd

[desert crown]

So

thres a pretty handy couple of workshop videos...

by a couple of handsome people

not to name names

ofc

[split sleet]

oh ik there are plenty of tutorials and help available

well .... what if

im VERY good at RED

and this map was ....

manifesto

naive art

done purposefully bad

https://tenor.com/view/put-your-thinking-cap-on-neil-degrasse-tyson-startalk-think-about-this-think-about-it-gif-22196950

....

.....

.....

...

it isnt the case here

;p

[brave crown]

🥳 alright meshes and notes are finalized and in the Alpine master now

man that took a lot of messing around lol

😱

[desert crown]

😂

[split sleet]

what is that ?

RED editor ELO ?

[brave crown]

lines added vs removed for that change

[split sleet]

ohh

xdddddd

[brave crown]

the mesh/notes change added over 5k lines of code to alpine's codebase lmao

[split sleet]

hmm as u see

the necessity of going 2D

is ....

well

think how much more meshes u could do there

[brave crown]

fwiw the sidescroller code is currently about 600 lines lol

[split sleet]

https://tenor.com/view/tkt-smart-gif-20642718

bro imagine red faction gamenight 2D with people DONT KNOWING WHATS COMING

will it be MOD

or function in rf/AF ?

[brave crown]

you literally just set this dropdown to side-scroller in the level properties lol

game takes care of the rest

[split sleet]

hoolyyy

please keep this low-profile

the live reaction on gn will be something else

:DDDDDDD

imagine people typing in chat

'WTF'

'WHAT'

xddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddd

RF LIERO 1v1 server

damn i remember playing this w/ my brother a lot

[desert crown]

now to see how vehicles work in 2d

[brave crown]

lol

i was moreso thinking of runmaps

[desert crown]

hey i wanna take an aesir in 2D

IS MY GODOT GAME A JOKE TO YOU

it would be neat to make a SP level out of it, run map eh

if someone wants to make it

i personally wouldn't

[gaunt lotus]

ur a godoke

[desert crown]

😠

[dire geode]

okay, Analog Movement is now in.

https://github.com/AL2009man/alpinefaction/commit/6c81e22f84f42d6fe5565e5cf49ac449170794d6

this took me a while. i'll go on a break.

[brave crown]

Nice work!!

Have you had a look at the animations yet, or just the player movement so far?

[dire geode]

exclusively player movement

I have not looked into it yet

Analog Movement right now is a hacky solution, it's still using Digital Movements as a baseline

[split sleet]

he is right tho

ive finished whole battlepass already

when there will be new DLCs ?

[gaunt lotus]

rf battlepass soon

hats and stattrack weapon market

[split sleet]

rf cases lolk

and weapon rebalancing every 2 weeks

oh wait actually it is the case on modded servers

xdddddd

[viral light]

we really should slop up hats

and custom player models in general

want to import my 300k triangle disaster

[brave crown]

I have experimented with hats, but it's difficult because most character meshes dont have a hat dummy, each has a different eye dummy position, and each does different things with its eye position during different anims lol

[viral light]

so let us use custom models and we can have a special bone to position the hat

[brave crown]

that is doable, so is programmatically adding the helmet dummy at a specific offset on each mesh at runtime

im not saying it's not doable, I'm saying it's complex :p

[dire geode]

it'll be fine

if there's a multiplayer-specific flag that only detects that you're in Multiplayer (like how Camera2 and Camera3 being blocked), i could take a note from Counter-Strike 2 initially did it's analog joystick (it's not real analog joystick)

or just skip the move ramp-up and jump to range 100%

[brave crown]

there is a multi bool (it's rf::is_multi), but I wouldn't want proper gamepad/gyro support to exclude the most popular way to play the game either 😛 Animation play rate is certainly accessible in-game, and I would imagine that's what you'd want to use here

[dire geode]

in this case: only analog movement needs it

[gaunt lotus]

no the issues would be that the animations may not loop properly in mp if u are able to move at a fixed low speed

and it would be a cheat on run maps fwiw

[brave crown]

for sure, but I would consider analog movement in the "proper gamepad support" camp tbh

[gaunt lotus]

1st one just needs tested

[dire geode]

multiplayer folks won't be able to abuse the slow-walk when using joystick input, sorry.

now i'll need to investigate the animation speed rate

[gaunt lotus]

u may not need to

just need to test and see if its broken or does weird stuff

[dire geode]

while third-person player animation is the same, first person player animation now scales to analog movement!

anyway, i rolled it out already. https://github.com/AL2009man/alpinefaction/commit/e071f93941d03924fd94e27a2a9936226776cb26

if you know how to build and compile: you can try it that way.

[wraith comet]

Parker go zoom

Go Parker go

[gaunt lotus]

i compiled this and tested it, one huge issue for mp right now is that however this is implemented, you can run full speed up ramps (9 m/s) which you cannot do with keyboard input

it's not handling ground friction properly so technically this would be a speedhack rn

air friction is also not working

kinda fun tho

[dire geode]

while i'll 'investigate' both problems, can you provide video clips if you can

[gaunt lotus]

i couldnt replicate the gigantic 10 meter jump i got on the bump but ye

[desert crown]

i don't think i ve ever watched nick type instead of talk

in a video

[gaunt lotus]

ye with my keyboard at insane cancer angle too

[dire geode]

it's now fixed, i hope

i'm not too sure if i nailed the air friction fix too

btw: did you notice that the Controller's control scheme mimics the PS2 version?

[gaunt lotus]

didn't notice but it was nice that it worked without setup

haven't played the ps2 version in awhile

[dire geode]

i could swap the shoulder buttons

[gaunt lotus]

i didnt check but it's a fixed layout right now, right?

[dire geode]

yea, for now.

[desert crown]

i wouldn't know how to fuck with the ingame options, perhaps an alpine option UI for Controller rebinding?

[dire geode]

also Controller-centric tab, i don't have enough space left.

ok, finally decided to proceed further.... @brave crown

looks like i got a new bug, but for vehicles or submarines. looks like i forgot to account for them

gotta see if i can add the missing vehicle/submarine camera function into joystick camera

[slow yarrow]

concept, a button to save the current map to a list, you can press a key to open list of these maps and when you press a button it auto votes for the map

[brave crown]

I considered something like this when I was making chat menus but decided it was way too hacky. Voting will be improved in time though - probably through a menu of some type

[desert crown]

will you bring back the PF menu?

just curious

[brave crown]

hm?

there's no "back" either 😛 Pf's menus were only ever in PF

but PF's vote menu just had buttons to send the chat commands - the Alpine command menu (which already exists) provides effectively the same thing (plus more commands)

[desert crown]

ah ok

[gaunt lotus]

I reviewed with my claude setup because now you have a different issue - diag movements are being slowed down too much. Didn't check anything else. I'd guess the underlying approach here is not correct

with the current approach you'd also have issues with mods i think, even if you nailed the calcs for the base game

[slow yarrow]

but how can you kick someone using an invisible character in name

[brave crown]

oh that menu

[gaunt lotus]

just spawn kill them until they leave

[brave crown]

thought you were talking about voting 😛

[desert crown]

yeah that menu

i meant the whole thing

[brave crown]

the whole thing absolutely will not be re-implemented - PF didn't do it in a "good" way really, it was great for the time but we can do the entire approach far better now

There probably should be a better way to kick/ban players and perform other rcon commands, perhaps some type of command menu would be appropriate for it

as a stopgap, it would be very simple to basically re-implement what lazyban did and let you kick/ban players based on player index rather than name. So, you'd run info, note the number of the player in question, then kick them by that number instead of their name

[gaunt lotus]

i tested claude's suggested change and it feels right to me

goober could speak better as to whether or not it's the right implementation

but the outcome feels right

[dire geode]

just tested it holy cow thank you!

will roll out that commit, with your credit of course

[gaunt lotus]

ya its just one small part of this but definitely needs to be right

i am working on wasting goober's time with my own nonsense so i cant commit many cycles to this

but good controller support is a noble goal

[dire geode]

it was suppose to be a proof of concept, but it went beyond the concept

now i can move onto fixing the vehicle camera on gamepad.

[gaunt lotus]

do you know if SDL has any kind of built-in flickstick implementation?

[brave crown]

I read this as "fishstick implementation"

Imagine my disappointment when I realized I was wrong

[gaunt lotus]

it's pretty good on stuff like the steam deck where u dont want to flail the entire thing around too much

or have to play on super high gyro sens

i had this grand vision when i was messing with gyro that i would use it to play fps while traveling (planes, bus, etc.) but then i realized i would be elbowing everyone in the face with my setup

maybe still viable

[desert crown]

I mean

thats their problem

get your frags

[dire geode]

SDL does not. you'll have to implement it yourself

http://gyrowiki.jibbsmart.com/blog:good-gyro-controls-part-2:the-flick-stick

thankfully, gamepad_get_camera is angle-based, you should have a easier time doing flickstick this way.

(and this is why I needed to overhaul the current camera system to be angle-based, and able to use quake's 0.022 mouse multiplier for the sake of skipping steam input mouse pixel calibration)

[brave crown]

editor now packs custom meshes used in the map (Mesh objects, Switch_Model events, and anims from Mesh_Animate and Play_Animation events) automatically

[dire geode]

that being said, there is a C# library that has "built-in flick stick implementation"...

https://github.com/NaokoAF/GyroHelpers/

but i think the ship has sailed + C#, so we're doing it manually (aside of leveraging GamepadMotionHelper header)

[dire geode]

looks like I'm stuck on vehicle camera, will have to go back to it later with assistance. it's like...two more steps before making a draft pr official

[dire geode]

in the meantime: we might have to figure out how to do in-game controller rebinds.

[desert crown]

[dire geode]

I'm thinking of integrating the existing game's binding system, and adding another column next to keyboard while the underlying system functions the same as before

[brave crown]

Adding another column there would be a bit dicey on space at non-widescreen resolutions

I would suggest a better approach would be to effectively have two lists (KB+M / Gamepad) and a toggle to switch between

[dire geode]

think it's possible to move the keyboard/mouse column a bit to left to make room for gamepad?

[desert crown]

you think? the longest command in the list in for the Fusion, you could move them over a little bit

[brave crown]

perhaps a checkbox down next to Change Binding or something

[dire geode]

just a curiosity: possible to add new game actions?

[gaunt lotus]

i agree with that, two separate pages of actions - one for kb/m and second for gamepads

[brave crown]

yes

if you scroll down, there are a load of new Alpine ones

[desert crown]

we have been doing so

[dire geode]

nice. makes it easier for me to add Gyro Modifier (lets us do gyro ratcheting)

[desert crown]

Controller will likely be limited by just what the base game needs - i don't think you can push the customisation that far without doubles

[desert crown]

ah

well excuse me and my 1080 😝

[brave crown]

I will say, that the number of new controls that do get added does need to be strategic. There's a limited number of control indicies available and adding any past that would be a HUGE pain

so I've tried to be very selective over what is important "enough" to warrant a dedicated control

[gaunt lotus]

ratcheting is important enough on controller to warrant it

[dire geode]

i mean...

[desert crown]

aslong as i can get a spray and i can put my mouse button on it idgaf what else you add

[dire geode]

i'm running out of space on another side

[brave crown]

I don't disagree at all, just saying we can't add like 50 of them

[gaunt lotus]

ye

i know u havent messed with gyro much

so just adding my 2c

the input method is borderline not viable without ratcheting for a tracking heavy hitscan game

[brave crown]

for the record, not all of these need to be in the menu - more specialized things can be limited to console commands at least currently

The advanced options menu is on the agenda to overhaul in the near future too, to implement scroll support for a long list

[gaunt lotus]

i think all of those do need to be in the menu for this

[dire geode]

btw, i already figured out how to add a dedicated tab, but i haven't figured out how to make it more visible on the advanced menu

[brave crown]

this all uses bitmaps, so it would require graphical work to add a new tab

[dire geode]

otherwise: it'll be hidden in the same veins as selecting a secret chararcter in a fighting game

[brave crown]

this is part of the reason this menu needs to be overhauled to fit more settings :p

[gaunt lotus]

it may be a huge pain in the ass but gyro has a lot of vars that you need to set but doing it all through the console would be a nightmare

i dont really see any fluff in that setting list

[dire geode]

you already saw the current gyro settings? the essentials is already there, but there is a few console commands related to gyro that isn't in the Input settings

[gaunt lotus]

i only looked at what's in the menu

and changed from player space to yaw or w/e

[dire geode]

i tried to do a < [text] > button setup, but it didn't worked out. for now: it'll be a cycle button

[brave crown]

ah ok - yeah, not all of the gadgets are mapped out in alpine's code yet, just the ones I needed for that menu

[gaunt lotus]

overhauling the menu at this point feels like - rip it all out and replace

[dire geode]

looks like you got a excuse to add a new one. 😛

but let's focus on getting the essentials first.

[brave crown]

there's an argument to be made that the right way is to just nuke all the controls pages, keep the 6 button layout on the left side, and redo a new set of 5 panels divided in a way that makes sense

it does cause issues for custom HUDs and some TCs which isn't ideal... but the return is enormous

[dire geode]

to summarize: the list of priorities that should be dealt with

1. get Vehicle Camera to work on Gamepad Joystick (we can't put gyro on it, naturally)
2. get Gamepad Bindings function
3. add Gyro Modifier action
4. add Gyro Tightening slider

if i can get Vehicle Camera to work, i might plan on doing a Draft PR so that anyone can check it out.

[brave crown]

sounds good

[dire geode]

btw i got stuck on Vehicle Camera, i'll take a break from now and try again later.

[brave crown]

multi brush support for RED-exported meshes now

I see this feature being useful for a significant number of purposes, but the two big ones are:

• Custom debris for meshes
• Complex brushes, especially in the background of scenes, that don't need to be brushes, and don't need collision, can be very quickly converted to static meshes in RED (literally with 2 clicks) to save on resources, more easily re-instance the same scene props, and reduce the per-room polygon/vertex load

[viral light]

why does it look so dark in editor but brighter in game

[brave crown]

Editor only has amb light shading for meshes

[viral light]

ic

[boreal ether]

is it not possible to put a life on it and destroy effect vclip is it called ?

[crude oyster]

Found a weird bug with the new mover code. In the Catan maps with collision meshes, (Forest, Pasture, Field). If I disable legacy movers, all the collision meshes that are moved into the scene at night (trees), at a speed of 192m in 0.01 seconds, now instantly kill the player every time they are touched. If I re enable legacy movers it no longer happens. 🤔

[brave crown]

yes it is, the settings are all in the properties of the mesh object 🙂

[brave crown]

is that so? Hm. Sounds like the physics state isn't being reset. Will need to look into this, you dont by chance have a test map that replicates the issue do you?

[crude oyster]

You should be able to just take Catan full version, Forest, Pasture or Field and just uncheck the legacy movers checkbox, save, drop back in the vpp, play. Then just walk into any of the trees. 😛

[crude oyster]

Just noticed some strange behaviour with dynamic lights on a keyframe brush, they stop applying to the brush depending on the angle you are looking at the brush. Look at the rock ring around the fire, On the first side the lights always work, on the second they only work when I look way down, the third same, the 4th they always work. 🤔

[brave crown]

looks like it's being culled if the light object itself is off camera? (is that where the light object is?)

[crude oyster]

The lights are 2m above the fire. The sides with weird behaviour, the lights are only applying to the brush when the light objects themselves are off camera. so being culled when they are on camera and unculled when off camera. 🤔

[boreal ether]

@brave crown Do you think it could be possible for RED to detect if you have 2 or more brushes within each other (copy and paste mistake) same with objects. i suppose you could run a program to list any duplicate coordinates of brushes/objects. it happens more than you might think.

[brave crown]

it could be done yes - actually it probably would be pretty simple for anyone to just take the report (via Generate Report) and parse it to find that :p

[boreal ether]

ah

i wouldnt know of a program that can find duplicates

[brave crown]

Corona objects 🥳

Removes the need to do hacks like adding a clutter light, making it invulnerable, then hiding it (like we needed to do in the past), plus allows for full customization of all values rather than being limited to the preset ones on stock light objects

(I obviously still need to make an icon for it in RED though 😛 )

[gaunt lotus]

now do corona virus

[dire geode]

work in progress, chugging along.

already rolled out the commit as a test drive, but it won't work just yet.

technically, it's functionable, but it has a offset problem, and "Select Action to Bind" text is stuck

[split sleet]

omg omg valheim music hits so hard

no no no

i cant afford another binge

rf survival game lets builld a house

and chill theree

the ground is shaking

[brave crown]

Just play the stoned freeroam maps lol

[split sleet]

Goober ure addressing me like i would know stuff

im clueless

when it comes to rf

[gaunt lotus]

look for maps by like

[split sleet]

xdd

[gaunt lotus]

lo_pan

and uhh

[brave crown]

I'm addressing you like you know how to use the search bar on FF

[split sleet]

well ..that will be harsh

with current state of rf activity

[gaunt lotus]

https://www.factionfiles.com/ff.php?action=file&id=3539

[split sleet]

there is nothing much to do other than FREE ROAM

[gaunt lotus]

these guys ran a SA-MP server where they just got high and did nothing

[split sleet]

damn

i havent seen these

[gaunt lotus]

then they picked up RF for some reason and made a bunch of like, empty maps with liminal settings

weh ave played some at GN ages ago but theyre kinda rough with people

[split sleet]

@green cobalt im asking you out on a date

taking u to lo_pan stoned realm

[gaunt lotus]

castle of doom is a good date spot

small town, too

[split sleet]

https://tenor.com/view/meme-kid-yes-wink-gif-15886187

[dire geode]

BIG

[desert crown]

Yeah i hated that i couldn't configure my Yboard

[brave crown]

@dire geode you should probably just make a checkbox gadget and change the controls displayed based on the value of that bool 🙂

The checkbox can fit neatly next to the change binding button

[dire geode]

thanks, i was in a middle of finalizing the whole thing. but helpful tho

what you see is the funni size thing, i thought it was funny

[dire geode]

you can now rebind gamepad bindings

and yes: it'll show the corresponding button prompts (right now: it's generic prompts, actual prompts be added shortly)

[brave crown]

had to revamp this panel for the new objects anyway, so added some functionality I've always missed in it lol

[brave crown]

This looks really nice

[dire geode]

the controller rebind is now officially ready for testing...holy cow this took a whole day to even get it working wtih tons of hacky workarounds.

https://github.com/AL2009man/alpinefaction/commit/e758220e9222f5a6c113785cc31bc23837bff470

[dire geode]

I tried again, but it looks like I won't be able to get a Vehicle / Submarine Camera to work properly. 😔

but the good news is that, now Gamepad binds are there (and it should behave more akin to Input Layers), I can look into adding custom actions and then menu navigation later on.

[brave crown]

🥳 finally figured out how to properly sort the tree list on the left lol

was annoying me to have Corona, Mesh, and Note at the bottom of the otherwise alphabetized list 😛

[gaunt lotus]

feels right to me for all vehicles but didn't look at binds etc

[boreal ether]

@brave crown looping sounds that work, that would be a good addition. That train from the other night was meant to have sound but wont work because looping doesnt work.

[dire geode]

will be looking into adding it.

but since I don't have enough space to place a dedicated toggle that handles Toggles and Holds (I'll need the remaining two for Stick Swap and Joystick Camera Y-axis): there will have to be three "duplicated" game actions for the time being.

once the advanced menu gets an upgrade to allow scrolling: it'll be consolidating into one single game action and a menu toggle.

once I get back home from IRL duties, I'll start preparing for a Draft PR alongside the two

(oh and thank you for getting camera vehicle to work!)

[green cobalt]

https://giphy.com/gifs/cbc-funny-comedy-l1J9N8zrmYCfSrQFq

[silk roost]

Oh my God! It’s crazy, man… Is this the Matrix? 😁

https://tenor.com/view/wtf-what-the-fuck-wtf-matrix-the-matrix-blink182-gif-11308275628706487257

[crude oyster]

You can put a play_sound event on a keyframe and just use a cyclic_timer event to make it loop.

[dire geode]

the priorities stuffs has been dealt with. the PR is now created.

https://github.com/GooberRF/alpinefaction/pull/295

[dire geode]

oh yeah i accidentally fixed a Window Management and scaling problem (screenshot is using 1080p)
https://github.com/GooberRF/alpinefaction/pull/296

[dire geode]

there's...a chance that we're replacing Win32 keyboard with SDL...and fix that Wine problem?

for now, I'll open up a separate branch as a test.

https://github.com/AL2009man/alpinefaction/tree/SDL-Keyboard

[gaunt lotus]

wine problem?

[dire geode]

specifically, https://github.com/GooberRF/alpinefaction/blob/master/game_patch/input/key.cpp#L114

    // Note: it seems broken on Wine with non-US layout (most likely broken MAPVK_VSC_TO_VK_EX mapping is responsible)
    int ret = GetKeyNameTextA(lparam, buf, buf_len);
    if (ret <= 0) {
        WARN_ONCE("GetKeyNameTextA failed for 0x{:X}", key);
        buf[0] = '\0';

right now, i only swap Win32 KeyNameText with SDL for the time being.

added SDL Keyboard in (cuz why not?), but will be separate branch for the time being

[dire geode]

ok, while i was prepping for the PR, i noticed issues that only affects DirectX 8/9 renderer.

the first screenshot is the internal bitmap scaling (using SDL directly), the second screenshot is the D3D bitmap scaling.

best i can do is only keep the fix for DX8/9. DX11 will properly scale the text and overlay no problem.

[brave crown]

which overlay are you referring to?

[dire geode]

Steam Overlay, in this case. gimme a moment let me take a new screenshot

i'm in 1080p.

without the fix, using Steam overlay on the first screenshot. with the "fix", using Steam overlay on the right screenshot.

keep in mind, the left screenshot is the same as the release build. only difference is that the overlay scales by display resolution instead of game's resolution (if using DX11)

all of it on borderless fullscreen, btw.

i think i can get the scaling oddity fixed up somewhat.

...technically, i already fixed the behavior. it should behave the same as before.

[dire geode]

okay, I probably leave it alone for now.

@brave crown I brought back the Stock Mouse Input toggle after realizing that I accidentally got rid of button. 😔

[dire geode]

question, do we have menu-based game actions right now? I'm looking into adding Menu Navigation to the list, should at least reach "full controller support" as per Valve's own words.

[gaunt lotus]

there are in-game radio messages and taunts that use a menuing system (keybind opens a menu, then numbered list for menu nav)

these are alpine additions specifically

[dire geode]

I'm guessing overall menu navs are baked into the key binds?

think it's possible to replace it as pure menu actions? I also noticed that not all interactions can be done using key binds such as the settings stuffs

I forgot to mention the scrollbar, radio messages uses it?

for now: I'll use the key binds as a temporary solution. Right Joystick is gonna be treated as a Mouse Cursor for the sake of full navigation.

I'm sorry, Destiny Cursor UI haters, but things are gonna be that way. 😔

[brave crown]

@simple valley @crude oyster am i mistaken or do these screenshots all look completely proper? 😮

(with the new d3d11 lights)

[simple valley]

https://tenor.com/view/wouldnt-you-like-to-know-weather-boy-gif-15559185

[brave crown]

https://tenor.com/view/yup-yep-yes-excited-gif-24387991

on closer inspection it does look different with d3d11lights vs. d3d11 on AF 1.2.2

... but at least in my eyes it looks better? 😛

@simple valley what do you think?

left new, right old

there's light coming from the light sources as opposed to it being entirely muted at night 😛

[simple valley]

its supposed to be dark tho

[brave crown]

@simple valley how many static meshes are lighter now but were darker

[simple valley]

idk iac is the wizard with that stuff, I just made the map, he did all the wizard stuff like changing things to meshes lol

[brave crown]

[simple valley]

im literally no use

[brave crown]

@crude oyster 👀

the new lighting system is super nice on meshes though :p

I love the green

[gaunt lotus]

i have no thoughts

all i do is kill

all i do is drill

[wraith comet]

That's very sexy. Reminiscent of PSX Doom/Doom 64.

[dire geode]

been cleaning off the checklist during this time.

haven't figured out how to add Menu Nav buttons to Gamepad without breaking the Controls Rebind ui, but I believe we're getting closer to completion!

[desert crown]

hahaha nick

Goober: yo that light is neat!

nick: yo goober your dead you crossed my crosshair unlucky nerd get rekt

[crude oyster]

Day looks good, green pool looks good, but in general night looks weird. 😛 not supposed to be any light on the meshes other then around the furnaces and green pool but looks like the day light is giving most of the night meshes an orange glow. The furnaces are also missing the exta lighting I added in front of them at night because those lights are only present where I pre lit the night mesh before it gets moved into the scene.

[brave crown]

I'm trying to conceptualize a good way to accomodate that, and the best way I've come up with so far is to use Light_State events to turn off the lights at night time :/

It's tough because in virtually all cases, having real time mesh lighting is just objectively better. But the trick used by these maps relies on the mesh lighting not updating in real time 😛

[crude oyster]

I think it's going to require more then just turning off the light. There's no day meshes in this map but on the ones with day meshes, when I was testing the new mesh lighting, it looked way darker then the old lighting, so probably going to need to set up 2 different sets of lights and have the proper light set enable/disable depending if the game is in dx9 or dx11.

Although better option would just be an option in map_info.tbl to force old lighting in dx11, then I don't have to update all the maps. 😛

[brave crown]

#Start
$Use Vertex Lighting: true
#End

DM-Catan-Hill_info.tbl

Am I correct in thinking that the original Catan map and all the individual section conversions will need this flag?

[brave crown]

@crude oyster ok that function exists now. FWIW though, Catan Field and Catan Pasture look nicer with pixel lighting, I think anyway 😛 Will send you a build so you can check. Happy to include compatibility tbls for your maps, to maintain your desired design, if you wish

[crude oyster]

Awesome! Yeah they would all need it. I don't like the look of the day lights spilling into night. 😛

[brave crown]

funnily enough, pixel lighting makes pasture and field darker than vertex lighting :p

[crude oyster]

Problem is that darkness factors in too during the day, when things are supposed to be bright. 😛

[brave crown]

isn't the day all geometry though?

pixel lighting only affects meshes

[crude oyster]

only in hill and mountain. The others have a lot of meshes during the day for the trees and sheep and stuff.

[brave crown]

ah ok, well either way I'll send a build and you can check it out

In addition to the mapname_info.tbl compatibility switch, I also added r_vertexlighting which applies in real time so you can switch it on and off as much as you want to see the difference

[crude oyster]

Sounds good!

[brave crown]

Sent! 🙂 Give it a try and let me know if you want compatibility tbls for pasture and field

and normal catan

[crude oyster]

Actually forgot mountain has all the default rf tree meshes and hill has that ship mesh, so guess those would look different in day too. 😛 Anyway I can do up all the compatibility tables and send em to you, so you can work on other stuff.

[brave crown]

well, just a list of rfls is fine - it's just copy pasting the file from hill/mountain anyway :p

[crude oyster]

(Top pic is old lighting and bottom is new) After some testing, I'm not sold on the new lighting being the better lighting. 😛 It is just way too dark and makes mesh lighting look dull. It is jarringly dark in forest. In graveyard it kills all the subtle moon lighting on the trees. Also with full bright not working on it, it makes all the fire on the torches and candles look wrong, as well as the lava mesh in hell (that covers all the lava to hide a seam caused by the portal splitting the room). It is supposed to be full bright so that looks weird that it is so dark. In tech clutter heavy maps, like Galileo 2 Starliner, everything looks off with the full bright not working on all the lights and screens on the tech. The place where the new lighting most of the time looks better compared to the old lighting though, is on items and the first person arm and weapon models.

So in its current state I think maps would definitely have to be designed with the new lighting in mind and all lights would have to be set to like double or triple their normal brightness, after calculating lights and before saving the map, in order to look good on meshes and blend with the geometry light level.

Perhaps you could double or triple the light level being applied to meshes in the code for the new lights and see how that looks? 🤔

So will definitely need compatibility tables for:
DM-Catan-Field.rfl
DM-Catan-Field1-1.rfl
DM-Catan-Forest.rfl
DM-Catan-Hill.rfl
DM-Catan-Mountain.rfl
DM-Catan-Pasture.rfl
DM-RFU8-Catan.rfl

And perhaps all my other clutter/mesh heavy maps if the mesh brightness and lack of full bright stays as it is now. 😛

[brave crown]

I'm surprised to see this feedback given I've had the exact opposite experience in every map I've played with the new lighting 😛 granted most of those were stock maps and such. I could certainly see a multiplier per level being practical. A hard multiplier across the board would make many stock maps look awful, though

[dire geode]

finally.

you can fully navigate with the game controller (tons of hacky workarounds!), internal under-the-hood file structure (prepares for SDL Mouse and Keyboard addition in a separate pr), Steam Deck prompts and destroying my sleep schedule. ❤️

I should start asking everyone here to playtest Gamepad support for multiplayer. I haven't tested new game actions yet

[crude oyster]

I think I might know what the issue is. The new lighting doesn't seem to be taking into account the difference between an omnidirectional light and a circular spotlight. For all these maps with a general sunlight/moon light, I am using circular spotlights as the main light source, yet the mesh light is applying as if that spotlight is instead an omnidirectional light with the same properties. Spotlights are way brighter compared to a omnidirectional light with the same intensity and range.

To demonstrate what I mean look at this RED lighting comparison. The first one is the circular spotlight with a 160 range, 0.75 intensity, and 0.75 intensity at max range. The second one is just switched to omnidirectional with all the same properties. The third one is set to omnidirectional but the intensity turned up to 1.0 and range increased to 300, in order to make it better match the first spotlight.

Then look at these in game screen shots. The first one is the spotlight with a 160 range, 0.75 intensity, and 0.75 intensity at max range with old lighting. The next is the spotlight with the new lighting. The next is the spotlight just changed to omnidirectional with all the other properties the same. The last is the omnidirectional with the intensity turned up to 1 and range set to 300. So as you can see the 2nd and 3rd look very similar on the meshes. and the first and last look about the same brightness but with the last having better colour.

So I'm guessing the maps you had the opposite experience with were only lit with omnidirectional lights instead of spotlights, therefore they would have been getting the correct brightness on the meshes. 🤔

[brave crown]

The new lighting doesn't seem to be taking into account the difference between an omnidirectional light and a circular spotlight.
You are exactly right, thanks for that. I was treating spotlights as omni lights - made sense why in hallways and such there was no issue noticed - a small circular spotlight coming down from the ceiling and an omni light with the same range would look similar on fp weapons when walking through the hallway. I'll look into this

[brave crown]

yeah this makes a lot more sense now

the one with the cyan line is pixel lighting - it is certainly darker than vertex lighting (which is not necessarily a "problem" with pixel lighting, just a reflection of the lights in the map), but the spotlights are being applied now

you can see in the shading on the fence for example in pasture

(I still may need to tweak the values though, not 100% sure on that yet, just wanted to get the actual functionality working first :p )

[dire geode]

i'll bring a video that showcase it in action.

[brave crown]

That does seem to be working really well now! 🥳
I don't have gyro but will have to test it out with a gamepad shortly

@crude oyster ok yeah, got the spotlights working for real-time pixel lighting. it does on average look a little darker at night for sure, but the lighting certainly has a lot more depth

I may still look into having a per-map multiplier on pixel light brightness though for tweaking

[dire geode]

i should be near completion, and start changing it into a pr review state. still found more bugs left to fix up

[brave crown]

for sure - this is a pretty big change, so it certainly need to reviewed and regression tested thoroughly

[crude oyster]

Night time in catan maps isnt going to be a good test because thats not supposed to be lit anyway. 😛 the test would be during the day if the meshes brightness matches the geometry brightness. Forest has the most day meshes so is the most obvious. For my test i got rid of the .37 intensity spotlight and just enabled the .75 one, then set the override static mesh light value to 2.

[dire geode]

ok, just finalized and dealt with the rest of the bugs across both the Gamepad and the SDL Mouse (and now Keyboard) PRs.

you can now review them with pleasure. the Gamepad portion requires a lot of verification and refactor due to it's POC nature.

especially with the Gamepad Rebinds

[dire geode]

btw @brave crown i'll need a quick question regarding Stock Mouse, if you can. does stock input uses a Mouse API from the Windows XP era, Win32 Mouse stuffs that doesn't do RawInput or Legacy Input (as Durante puts it)?

started doing minor research for a bit

[brave crown]

I don't know exactly how stock mouse input works unfortunately

[dire geode]

darn.

for future reference: https://ph3at.github.io/posts/Windows-Input/

but i can tell you at least one thing: ever since i applied SDL Mouse Cursor in (only for Menus, you can still use Stock Mouse for camera movement): i can tell a bit of a difference in feel and movement.

it's soooo weird.

i can try to guess the stock mouse. given the age of Red Faction 1, probably WM_MOUSE?

i'll see what I can do, but i can't guarantee that

[brave crown]

Oh that reminds me actually, I forgot to mention it the other day when I commented on your PR, but we're going to need to come up with a way to have input mode selection between 3 options rather than replacing dinput as well

[gaunt lotus]

stock is wm_mouse

theoretically dinput is threaded wm_mouse i think

for dx8

im looking at doing getrawinputbuffer raw input

if sdl is already doing that, would be good

i agree ur sdl patch feels good

[dire geode]

I believe so...?

https://deepwiki.com/libsdl-org/SDL/6.2.2-windows-raw-input-system

[brave crown]

I will have a lookand see 🙂 Did you want to test out a build that works with spotlights as well

[boreal ether]

I noticed if you have a lot of panning textures in a level and then geo is made; the game lags to single digit fps for about 1-2 seconds. donno why geo should effect textures in that way. might be something you would want to look in to finding out why and optimising/fix it. may open other doors into further understanding of optimising the engine

[crude oyster]

Sure, I can take a look in a bit.

[dire geode]

do note: SDL in general is meant to abstract to all common OS APIs, SDL Mouse...i believe will be using WM_MOUSE / Raw Input under the hood...but Linux will use either X11 or Waydroid's instead.

technically, SDL Mouse is really just stock mouse but more abstracted to better handle various operating systems

...but it already handles Raw Input Buffer via THREAD_PRIORITY_TIME_CRITICAL

i'm bit more familiar with SDL Gamepad's method of abstraction than Mouse tho.

[brave crown]

the ones with darker trees obviously are the pixel lighting ones 😛 (the trees are moved in from outside the map from an area where they were lit, right?)

With the way these maps are built, I think vertex lighting is going to end up being necessary, simply because they rely on baked in vertex lighting "calculated" in an area outside the map and then moved in

In theory they could be redesigned to turn on the lights in the main area and light the existing trees, rather than swap them out with new copies 😛 but I wouldn't suggest you fundamentally remake the logic in the maps when a compatibility switch can just be used here

[crude oyster]

There is no moving during the day. All the night meshes are removed via event and day meshes are simply un hidden via event, so real time lighting should work fine for them if the intensities are set right.

[brave crown]

Interesting 🤔 I'm wondering if I'm unintentionally ignoring the static mesh amb light scale

[gaunt lotus]

ya but in linux rf can only be played under wine/proton, so you are only getting windows input translated through compat layers

[dire geode]

so, what's the best approach then? from the looks of it: it'll have to be two, and I have to restructure the entire thing to support the switch between Stock and SDL.

DirectInput primary handles Mouse Input, which means it'll be Stock Keyboard + DirectInput Mouse at the same time. the overall Input switching will be weird.

[brave crown]

I haven't reviewed all of your code yet, but since you have a bool to go back to stock input vs. SDL already, could that not just be an inputmode int? 0 = stock, 1 = dinput, 2 = sdl

[dire geode]

does DirectInput only covers Mouse? 🤔

[crude oyster]

Thats what I first thought but i couldnt really duplicate the look by just changing the static mesh amb light scale. Might have something to do with it but Seems more like its still adding a falloff even though the light is configured for no fall off and/or not getting the intensity right for spotlights. 🤔

[gaunt lotus]

not easily bc sdl would need to be on for gamepads always i think

[crude oyster]

Just out at the moment but when I get back i can send u a test version of forest with just the day. These maps will just use the compatability flag in the end but it would be a good test to try and get spotlights matching between geometry and meshes.

[dire geode]

oh, that won't be a problem, as seen in the SDL Gamepad PR.

it still has stock keyboard and stock mouse/dinput mouse.

[brave crown]

ok, yeah I figured it out now

daytime: they look very similar

nighttime: they look different because pixel lighting is illuminating the meshes rather than using the baked dark vertex lights

[dire geode]

ok, you can now switch between three Keyboard/Mouse Input modes.

the default will need to be SDL tho.

tried my best to restore the original setup as best i could.

[brave crown]

Why will the default need to be SDL?

[dire geode]

actually, nevermind. was thinking of consistency.

[brave crown]

Curious - does this also allow for binding of MOUSE4/MOUSE5/etc in RF? 👀

[dire geode]

you know what, let me go try that out, i did not consider it

[brave crown]

that would certainly be exciting 😛

@crude oyster I sent you a test build if you want to do some testing and let me know the results 🙂

[dire geode]

hmm.. it doesn't detect my Mouse4/5 clicks, but i think i know why.

[crude oyster]

Yeah that looks right now. 🥳

[dire geode]

due to the funni side effects of maintain parity, it didn't do MOUSE 4/5/6 buttons. but SDL can handle it.

https://wiki.libsdl.org/SDL3/SDL_MouseButtonFlags

let me see if I can add it in.

[desert crown]

@brave crown is there a way we can make the geo texture for the geo airbrush better/higher resolution?

[brave crown]

Yes, that can be done with alpine tbls

[desert crown]

[gaunt lotus]

if SDL3 captures mouse input via GetRawInputBuffer correctly, it should be the default, and dinput would not serve much or any purpose at that point

legacy input would be something to keep around for weird use cases (RDP, VMs maybe?)

[crude oyster]

looks good, new lights now officially look better then old lights for day time catan and the moon lighting has returned to the meshes in graveyard! Now the next task, getting the full bright face flag working for meshes with pixel lighting. 😛

Also are tube lights working properly in pixel lighting mode or are they just applying as omnidirectional as well? Because I have a tube light in graveyard above Krispy, that he stands up into to so he's not so dark, but it doesn't seem to be doing much anymore in pixel light mode. (top pic vertex light, bottom pixel light)

[brave crown]

I forgot tube lights existed!

so no, they're not being handled currently lol

thanks for that 😛

well fullbright is working... but it's... too full bright lol

fullbright apparently now means blind the player

[crude oyster]

lol its a start at least!

[brave crown]

gives a template if emissive mapping is ever on the docket :p

ok fullbright works - it's actually better than fullbright because unlike vertex lighting "fullbright" which both increases and reduces the light level to a flat 1.0 (so it can actually be darker than the rest of the mesh in a super bright room) this is fullbright as a base line, but lighting can still illuminate it

left vertex, right pixel

[crude oyster]

That would be next level if we could make like lava emissive and have it light the surrounding area without extra lights.

[brave crown]

the screens can now be illuminated too

[brave crown]

yeah that's definitely doable

later on (not right now) I plan to explore pixel lighting for geometry too as an alternative to baked lightmaps

that would be the time to tackle that

[crude oyster]

Hmm that could be good or bad. Could lead to full bright faces just being completely blown out if they are on a mesh in a bright room, no?

[brave crown]

in theory yes

if you put a super bright omni light up against the fullbright screen, for example (though I have no idea why you'd do this 😛 )

it's inevitable though that with this new lighting system there's going to be some super old map where the mapper did something strange with lights around meshes and it's going to look strange

that's unavoidable

(which is why the compatibility switch exists tbh, same as for full depth lightmaps)

alright, dissecting the editor to figure out the math for tube lights, those are next. Once those are working, I think this feature is effectively done

@crude oyster it's unavoidable that the catan maps will need compatibility tbls, but that's strictly due to your day/night cycle method. I think those are the only ones of your maps that have that though, right?

[crude oyster]

Yeah those should be the only ones that need it once everything is working properly.

[brave crown]

@crude oyster just sent you a new build, tube lights and fullbright faces should be working now

can you test your scenario with Mr. Arsons

[crude oyster]

Could you put some sort of cap on max brightness so things can never reach the point where they are looking over exposed? Like even in the stock game there are some super bright lights that make the models look unnaturally bright. (top is vertex bottom is pixel) I'd say there needs to be a cap somewhere between the 2 brightness levels, like they can be a bit brighter but not so bright that we're loosing detail and things are just turning pure white. 🤔

[crude oyster]

Will do!

[brave crown]

yeah I tuned this down. Just sent you a new build, no change except that tuning

[dire geode]

ok, Mouse Buttons 4/5 and beyond should now work..

but i'm having trouble on getting the game action behavior to work. it doesn't do anything right now. am trying to get that fixed up

[brave crown]

The stock game doesn't support those scan codes, so that will probably need some logic

that's awesome though! 🥳

[dire geode]

ok, now it works!

https://github.com/GooberRF/alpinefaction/pull/296/changes/f3d03b029c8ff0f1f8c152c7373de878ebb59b44

btw, you'll need SDL selected inorder to get access to additional mouse inputs. it won't work on DInput nor Stock (probably renamed to "legacy" soon)

[brave crown]

right yeah, that is totally expected

[dire geode]

to answer the part about RawInputBuffer, i think SDL Mouse should be capable of it...by default

[dire geode]

but i could let that go thru DInput and Stock/Legacy......?

nah, it's better to maintain backwards compatibility.

[glacial storm]

Btw, does this SDL stuff also mean it could be possible to remap actions in the game to certain keys which were not possible before.

Like how we can't bind ALT key in Red Faction right now.

[dire geode]

as of right now, it's supposed to be at parity with the stock input, but with CTRL_REBIND_SENTINEL = 0x58, that issue is more or less overcome, allowing additional mouse buttons and the entirety of Gamepad buttons in. but I won't apply the proper refactor till later tonight (due to both IRL and going to theater)

but I don't know if ALT key is rebindable tho, I haven't checked yet.

[glacial storm]

We cannot bind ALT key to anything right now in RF.

[split sleet]

alt+f4 works as intended in rf .

https://tenor.com/view/hide-the-pain-harold-harold-pain-hide-meme-gif-7962146957933466373

[brave crown]

now it does yes, as of November last year 😛

[dire geode]

I still need to check the SDL branch to see if ALT is rebindable...won't be able to check in several hours from now

and well, double-check the license stuffs.

Ignoring SDL and GamepadMotionHelper's code (both are zlib and MIT License, respectively), I'll say between 95-97% of the setup is done from scratch.

the 5-3% is reuses from my prior work on getting glyphs working on Perfect Dark PC (it's a draft pr tho)...which I might consider redoing everything from scratch

[brave crown]

anything that is 100% your own, without deriving from existing code or structure or anything, that you're asking to contribute that's fine, but anything that is copied or derived from licensed code, we need to be sure we account for the license of that code

any code that would be under GPL for example we can't merge

🥳 mesh shadows are officially in Alpine master

[dire geode]

ever since the GZDoom incident, I officially made that as a rule to avoid anything related to GPL as best as I can.

in the case of YQuake2 (which I believe is multiple, including GPL), I cannot use it directly but only reference the gyro processing order. While the actual code is from the scratch, the order itself is indeed derive from YQuake2...or more accurate, swapping the order where the gyro gets processed, otherwise: gyro axis oddities gets broken. Something I later learned during my Perfect Dark PC work. It's technically a bug fix.

the processing order fix came much later after gyro aim is close to finalized

gonna be honest, everything I've done with alpine's native gyro felt like a cultivation of everything I've learned across different projects.

[brave crown]

🥳 Ok, mesh shadows and per-pixel realtime lighting are both merged into Alpine now

And D3D11 is officially now the recommended renderer

[simple valley]

Okay but DirectX 12 when

🙂

[gaunt lotus]

2035

[dire geode]

or Vulkan

[gaunt lotus]

not much benefit there unless it was an actual standalone client

which, i dunno, maybe some day

funny, i think the realtime lighting boosts visibility more than the player outlines lol

[dire geode]

now you can, across Legacy and SDL modes!

additional keyscans exclusive to SDL is also added in, in case you happen to have F13-24 keys on your keyboard (i have not tested that part)

i don't own a keyboard that has that many F keys sooooooooo

[brave crown]

It has been a lot of years since I saw one lol

[desert crown]

wait they go beyond f12?

😂

[brave crown]

And I don't think I've ever seen them used for anything except AS400 lol

[dire geode]

the binding issue is a hardcoded limited, but i determined that CTRL_REBIND_SENTINEL = 0x58 (it's suppose to be a faked KEY_F12) seem to bypass that.

[desert crown]

holy shit

[brave crown]

Saw tons of these back in the day for people who worked in AS400 all day

[dire geode]

the beauty of SDL is abstraction. 😛

you could let SDL handle the GPU/video renderer portion if you like, but i kinda prefer something like bgfx for more specialized usage (plus more matured)

[gaunt lotus]

u can rebind keys via registry to f13 etc

i used to do this for push to talk lol

[dire geode]

after dealing with the rest (the glyph.cpp got a bit of a revision/overhaul to be more modular), I can proceed based on my analysis: everything should be compliant enough that there should be no issues.

although, there are indeed two things that is indeed use that could be a potentially problematic:

• GyroWiki (the place where you wanna learn to implement good gyro controls and flick stick)
• SDL_GameControllerDB

I only use GyroWiki's documents for both tightening and smoothing only. that one is CC BY 4.0 license, but if i understand from gyrowiki license page: all you need is link the article and a credit, it'll be linked on gyro.cpp.

i'm not too sure if I should also add it on licensing-info.txt, tho.

now, the second one is a weird oddity, SDL_GameControllerDB is a community-driven database that swaps SDL (or Steam's, if you happen to ship a game using SDL Gamepad and set ) built-in gamepad database with a more updated one. that one's zlib license too, but.....

it isn't in the PR itself, i only added SDL_AddGamepadMappingsFromFile("gamecontrollerdb.txt"); into it . If you happen to have a custom DIY controller or a new 8BitDo controller that hasn't been officially added to Steam Input/SDL yet...or you wanna extend the level of support that gamepad mapping guid can do without the need for manual SDL Updates (the community database is far more up-to-date), this will be useful...but it won't be directly part of a PR. I just give you the option to slap it inside Alpine Faction install path.

i don't know if can still put it on the licensing info page regardless, but i notice other sourceports don't do that sooo i think we should be good

beyond that, i think everything is ready to go!

i hope

now i'll need help on getting live players to use gamepad for multiplayer

[nimble sierra]

I want one

[gaunt lotus]

experimental antilag improvement for projectile and particle weapons... @split sleet i know you're a rocket fan

removes the need to lead targets ahead of your ping with these weapons

flamethrower needs a huge fucking nerf though lmfao

[dire geode]

soon...

(it'll be a separate PR after Gameapd and SDL Mouse branches gets merged, what you see is WIP)

[thorny pumice]

@brave crown reading through this thread, one thing I've not spotted that would be a potential nice to have... meshes and movers in skyboxes, is it possible?

I remember my RFU Assault map that I didn't finish was going to have those in the skybox but realised it wouldn't work.

[brave crown]

ironically if this is just an argorithmic change - presumably just on initial value config - it'd be way more simple than the other changes and probably much quicker to review 😛

would be nice to have different ways to provide mouse sens though for sure

sensitivity_scale_type or ms_type or something would probably be a better command though - scale doesn't really make sense for what is effectively an enum selection

[brave crown]

movers 100% (I just did this, took 5 minutes)

meshes is more complicated but likely doable

[gaunt lotus]

ms_type is weird but i think ms_scale would make sense - it's "sens scale" in kvk for example

what you're picking here is which scaling algorithm to use for sens, not which type of sens

[brave crown]

this is true at a technical level, but I would expect that most people when they see a param labeled scale, they're expecting to set a multiplier value, not an index from a list of different approaches

[gaunt lotus]

but i think it should maybe be something like ms_scale <default, quake, fortnite, cm360>

[brave crown]

yeah, having those aliases for the indicies would be good for sure

[gaunt lotus]

i dunno about most people but ive generally encountered this as "scale", although not many games include this anyway (kovaaks, diabotical... ???)

i guess sourceports would have it more often, dunno the conventions there

[split sleet]

is it making explos client side hitdetect

or lag comp alghos like in most modern games ?

[gaunt lotus]

closer to modern

i'ts not clientside

the way rockets work now is that they have no lag compensation at all, but RF's lag comp is still a fairly standard/modern lag comp algo. they did not enable it for rockets though, but this seems like a subjective choice more than anything else for this game.

but in this case we aren't just enabling it and calling it a day. what i've implemented here is a "fast forward" system similar to newer games netcode. the way that it works is that when the server receives the packet from your client that you've fired a rocket, it uses your current 1/2 ping as reference to spawn the projectile 1/2 of your ping ahead of time. then, when it explodes, RF's lag comp algorithm is applied to determine whether it hit or not (and how close).

in theory this is better than just adding lag comp to the hit detection for the rockets, because it should "sync" the position of the rocket better for all players

the big downside to lag comp on rockets is that in close/mid range, as a low pinger against a high pinger they might become/feel completely undodgeable

RF's rockets are really slow and the splash is not very generous though, and there's no knockback etc..

they've never really worked properly in this game so it's unclear to me if there would be any balance issues

even at low pings they are only kind of okay in this game

but with fast forwarding the projectile, considering how slow they are compared to quake etc, i'd think you'd need to have a really high ping (500+) before it starts to feel wonky for the low pinger

the only other thing is that the phenomenon of like, you getting hit by a rocket on your client or hitting someone with a rocket and it dealing no damage - that is completely gone with this system, or at least 90% more rare

also there's a big ping gap you will "get hit around corners" with rockets as well, which is currently how everything else works as well

the flamethrower, grenades, c4, etc. all have this fast forward + lag comp on this branch as well, only difference being that the flamethrower is particle based

[brave crown]

and the best

[gaunt lotus]

i think we should actually just change it to be some kinda raycast thing

[brave crown]

this is exciting though - I wish we had this type of lagcomp/fast forward for the past 25 years lol, but to have it now is fantastic

[brave crown]

yeah some kind of collision trace with a cone would probably work better

[gaunt lotus]

like flamethrower could just have a hitbox and deal damage based on fire rate

bc the particle shit is dumb

and fps dep

[brave crown]

particles make sense for visuals, not for actual damage lol

[gaunt lotus]

the number and position of particles etc will never sync perfectly so

its funny they left it so broken in mp tho

the way god intended

[gaunt lotus]

similar approach to what reflex did https://www.reddit.com/r/truegaming/comments/2ruqba/comment/cnl8c8l/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

[split sleet]

the situation in which rocket does 0 dmg but in your screen uve perfect hit is what makes it so infuriatibg

how much/little dmg it does its irrelevant

cant wait to playtest it

[gaunt lotus]

yeah rocekts are barely usable above like 70ms

adn they are so slow that generally they are kinda synced for most players anyway

[split sleet]

rockets are underitilised as a support for

a) engagament starter/ finisher

b) shooting RL blindly in tunnel when ure traversing corridor/ tunnel is free

c) as a denial weapon ( ctf def ) other weapons are often used( c4) regarded as more reliable

[gaunt lotus]

i think grenades are the biggest change here actually

bc they do fucking huge dmg and have lag comp on this

[split sleet]

please dont ever turn 'buffed lag comp rockrts ' on modded servers

[gaunt lotus]

lmao

[split sleet]

i wonder if nade / RL full dmg gibs will be more common

same as in LEGO

[gaunt lotus]

if u hit with them on ur screen then yeah, it does more dmg

the numbers in my video above are corrected (only dmg done is displayed, not overkill dmg)

but they do like 275 max i think

so in theory they just gib anyone 100/50 or below

might be kinda fucked lmao

but it's 1/2 that for leg hitbox

so teh actual damage is weird anyway

[split sleet]

hs multiplier works for RL right ?

:p

i swear it does

[gaunt lotus]

it does afaik

but with no lag comp you'd probably never/only randomly hit someone in teh head if they were strafing lol

grenade/c4/rocket hs will be funny

[thorny pumice]

I like the idea of the Flamethrower becoming usable. Hell most mappers don't include them because they're so poor. So maybe keep them super strong, but not ridiculously overpowered as that way they can be a new "super weapon" for players/mappers to use

[thorny pumice]

Awesome.

I was planning to have a "live" skybox that had ships firing at each other and such.

[gaunt lotus]

the "issue" is that they're in a lot of stock maps in good positions already

like checkmate, for example, it totally denies base entry

[split sleet]

please make flame canister

like flashbang in CS

xddddd

or smoke

[gaunt lotus]

but that being said i think it should be "strong" in close range anyway

[split sleet]

and regular nade secondary would be fb

xdddd

[gaunt lotus]

like, not as strong as the shotgun (bc u have to fucking aim the shotgun at least a bit) but it should be something you need to respect

like 100 dps or something

with particles it's... i dont even know, it's sometimes completely fucking absurd or totally useless

[split sleet]

rn flamethrower is less potent than pepper spray

xddd

lets keep it that way

xddddddd

[gaunt lotus]

the only fun thing about it is that for multikills

like in my hallway example there

hilarious

but yeah i don't think it should have the same dmg output that it does now, especially with lag comp

even if we keep it particle based the fps dependency needs to be fixed, and it should probably ignore location dmg and deal 1x always

[gaunt lotus]

i think i hate this

lmao

[dire geode]

it's slightly more involved than you did...

basically, I figured out how to centralized the camera system, makes it a lot easier to achieve mouse camera scaling

[brave crown]

could you explain what you mean by "centralize the camera system"? (I have not had the chance to test your latest code yet for the record)

[dire geode]

basically, the gamepad camera was tied to Mouse.cpp, and I needed to move it over to camera.cpp.

Afterwards, I reuse the existing gamepad camera angles and repurpose it into a more general solution that will let me plug it to the Mouse and soon: Flick Stick.

You can already review it over on the Gamepad PR if you like, https://github.com/AL2009man/alpinefaction/commit/9067c4d01eaf6281863a4ccf56cb4ac0ac52aba4

I'm still making preparation for the Mouse scale PR as we speak

anyway...

I plugged the camera angle over to the Mouse Input, adds 0.022 multiplier and now it behaves the same as id tech / source mouse.

Of course, you can switch back to Legacy if you want the original game's method back.

I still haven't figured out how to decide which ones the default, I wanna keep Legacy as the default for now

oh and I added "Raw" mouse scale that simply skips the 0.022 entirely

[gaunt lotus]

we default linear pitch to on in alpine, but that isn't the stock input to be clear, and stock sens scaling (with its weird up/down accel curve) shouldn't be removed

and quake sens scaling can't be a default behavior either

[dire geode]

Linear Pitch is still there, just moved to camera.cpp internally

The stock sens scaling I think is still kept in, intentionally.

[gaunt lotus]

what happens if you disable linear pitch on the client right now, with the changes you've made?

[dire geode]

last I tested, it behaves the same, the weird up/down curve still works.

I can test again shortly, but I'm in coffee break

[brave crown]

The only point that I'd raise just as a general matter (not referring to your specific code) is that we need to keep the changes as minimal as possible here to avoid regressions (or unnecessary code bloat). Gamepad support is a very good "nice to have", but we need to be very, very careful to ensure that these changes are as minimal as necessary and don't result in regressions or additional (noticable) overhead

[dire geode]

the gamepad one is more involved step and will need additional testing especially with the multiplayer side (I really wanna know if the Reset Camera action I added doesn't accidentally force every player's camera to reset itself)

the mouse one is gonna be far more focus on ensuring backwards compatibility with the original setup

[gaunt lotus]

if ur reset camera action doesn't have netcode then it can't reset everyone's camera lol

if it does have netcode that would be a big ??? why

[brave crown]

^

The player's camera "doesn't exist" on the server, and it wouldn't be synced regardless. Clients are, for better or worse (usually worse), in control of their own player entity's position and camera here

[thorny pumice]

Amazing. Great work

[dire geode]

i'll go check the gamepad pr later on to verify, just finished with the Mouse Scale PR.

[dire geode]

it's done, you can now review.
https://github.com/GooberRF/alpinefaction/pull/305

Standard is really those who like Quake/Apex Legends/Valve's mouse scale while being more friendly towards Steam Input's Gyro systems, just set the in-game mouse to 2.5 and you can leave the rest of Steam Input's defaults alone.

I know a Valve developer who REALLY wanna standardized Mouse Camera scale

[brave crown]

Will certainly review this - just sent Copilot a req to do a preliminary review too

I will say though just at a glance, the tiers probably do make sense as-is, but the labels can't stay that way. "Standard" can't be the name that we assign, in RF, to something that is net-new to RF 😛

I don't know the right answer here off the top of my head, but it's probably something like

Scale:

• Classic
• Raw
• Modern

[gaunt lotus]

i dont understand the point of raw

shouldn't this just be "Default/Quake"?

[brave crown]

Actually, yeah that's a good point

"raw" doesn't mean anything when the user has no point of reference on the base value the scale is applying to

[gaunt lotus]

i understand the utility of adding quake sens scaling (I was probably going to do this myself at some point) but i don't know what benefit "raw" would have or purpose

[dire geode]

i'll describe what Raw does:

camera_turn = mouse_change * sensitivity * secret_internal_number

but without the secret_internal_number.

i took that snippet from FlickStick creator Jibb Smart.

but yea, Raw is the same as "Standard" (probably be renamed), but without the 0.022 (id tech/source mouse multiplier).

it's essentially the same as Joystick Camera and Gyro (this is very crucial to obtain Real World Sensitivity / Natural Sensitivity Scale)'s very own scaling (which doesn't have the special number), and it will enable us to add Flick Stick down in the line.

i did tested Raw and Legacy, and they both function very similar to each other. Raw just get rid of Red Faction's internal mouse handling.

my internal thought is this: those who wants a Raw Camera but with the same sensitivity feel as Legacy/Classic. I actually considered matching with Legacy mouse scaling, but i opted to leave it unscaled.

[gaunt lotus]

ohh for native RWS, okay, I think i follow

i've never played anything with native RWS or gamepad support, so I had always just ran the calibration thing in steam input to match it up with my sens

[dire geode]

i use https://www.mouse-sensitivity.com/ to get the RWS calibration thing too, the default RF mouse would be 0.200, which will be 3141px which will allow us to achieve near perfect scale for steam input gyro.

but the Valve developer I have interacted in the past suggest developers who plans to make it more friendly towards Steam Input's Gyro mouse is this: 360/ 0.022 / 2.5 = ~6545

you can see it in action on both Shady Knights and I Am Your Beast.

fun fact: 2.5 / 6545px is Counter-Strike: Global Offensive's default mouse scale, used as the default for Steam Input Gyro value.

[gaunt lotus]

right, i follow now

hmm, i guess what might be annoying is if you swap between gamepad and mouse you'd probably need to swap between two sens values?

[dire geode]

which is why Standard uses 0.022, Raw does not use it.

my current debate is changing the Raw's unfiltered scaling to closely mirror Legacy's scaling but without the weakness of RF's scaling...

[gaunt lotus]

i think i was using 6 or 7 (lolol) RWS the last time i messed around with gyro, and i think what i had to do was convert my RF sens to quake and then use the quake sens in steam input -> RWS

[dire geode]

that's why Standard will overcome that issue!

will make things alot easier for Steam Input / Steam Deck gyro users going forward, they just need to change two things and that's it.

[gaunt lotus]

oh duh, got it. long day

Standard = Quake is throwing me lol

[dire geode]

so, about the naming scheme...

I'm going with Goober's suggestions now. Standard gets renamed to "Moderen". 😛

[gaunt lotus]

it's really idtech/source I guess, going by engine

[brave crown]

I was going to say "Quake", but then some CS player is going to find it wrong. Name it Source and some Quake player is going to find it wrong lol

id Tech/Source would be correct but is probably too long for the button

[gaunt lotus]

i hate words

[brave crown]

agreed

[dire geode]

Titanfall/Apex Legends also uses Quake/Source scaling, too!

[brave crown]

we should do away with them

communicate only with gifs

[gaunt lotus]

yep, but TF/apex are also source engine based

[dire geode]

i love john carmack

so, cast your votes. which naming scheme for our id/source mouse will be?

[brave crown]

I think "I love John Carmack" is also too long for the label on the button, which is unfortunate

[gaunt lotus]

i vote for the button being called "Every other game"

every other game sens

this game sens

etc..

[brave crown]

I'd say "Modern" makes the most sense - it's not quite as specific but it says effectively the same thing in far fewer characters

[gaunt lotus]

not confusing at all

[brave crown]

RF as "Classic"
Quake as "Modern"
Raw as... "Raw"

[gaunt lotus]

that works for me

[dire geode]

the the description will precisely tell you the details, we can explain that info to them.

[gaunt lotus]

yeah, no way around it

sometimes there just isn't a perfect word

thanks semiotics!

[brave crown]

nick this is your fault somehow

[dire geode]

we can just add it to the wiki thingin' page like the rest of the feature.

at least until Alpine Options/Settings gets a overhaul.

[gaunt lotus]

i will accept this contingent on your acceptance of all other fault

[brave crown]

https://tenor.com/view/homer-simpson-homer-disappears-bush-hiding-gif-3377649

[dire geode]

in the meantime: i'll swap the button order:

• "Classic" (default)
• "Raw"
• "Modern".

again, Classic and Raw are similar to each other, Raw's sens is bit higher tho.

ok, everything has been rolled out, alongside the remaining fixes @brave crown, go check it out

the only problem is thet hooked UI. that one isn't dynamic when opening/closing the Controls tab. i don't know how to do it yet. (same with with Gamepad PR's Controls Rebind switch button)

[brave crown]

I believe that is from parenting it to the panel gadget

Look at how I handled the buttons on the advanced panel

Pretty sure I had to assign a parent

[dire geode]

got it fixed!

[dire geode]

I'm done with all I have to do with all three PRs. Let me know if there are any more remaining things to solve or fix to ensure Merge Conflicts won't happen

[gaunt lotus]

2026 tier brainrot

we need to teach them to drum @brave crown and shotgun glitch

[brave crown]

Lmao how many is that

[gaunt lotus]

31

[brave crown]

hahahahahahaha

[boreal ether]

https://www.myinstants.com/en/instant/pink-floyd-money-32531/?utm_source=copy&utm_medium=share

[brave crown]

doing waypoint grids, it's still so cool to see maps like this :p

[brave crown]

well these bots are having an exhilarating game of TAOW lol

I mean, they managed to find eachother and steal some flags... that's further than most players get before quitting the server when this map comes on, I guess lol

[gaunt lotus]

yea not bad

[green cobalt]

nick's new nick 31 savage

[brave crown]

🥳 bots are now officially merged into Alpine for v1.3

Please do note that this is the first incarnation of them, and bots are a HUGE feature with a TON of moving parts (over 36,000 lines of code), it would be impossible to test out every possible interaction with them. There may well be odd interactions and bugs with their behaviour. Please let me know if you notice anything especially troubling, but also understand that these are bots that think and make decisions on their own... so them making bad/stupid decisions sometimes based on the info they have is fully expected 😛

changelog:

- Advanced multiplayer bots system
  - Headless bot clients with server control
  - Bot profile customization
  - Integrated waypoint grid editor with autogeneration support for custom maps
  - Waypoint grid files for all default maps included

[grand ocean]

Would the bots function with a full conversion mod?
(For example My star wars mod)

[brave crown]

there's no reason that they wouldn't work, but they are tested and tuned for stock movement, weapons, and item tiering... so they probably will make some weird decisions

but yes they should work

[grand ocean]

This will make for a good way to stress test my mod. Especaly the weapon projectile limit.

Also will help me know if the multiplayer addon skins are working correcly.

First thing i'm gonna do is play with bots on my 3d chess map. Should make for some funny moments

[slow yarrow]

how do waypoints work in custom maps

oh

do you have some post or guide with all the settings and stuff

there will be a lot there

[brave crown]

they will need waypoint grid files

there will be an autodownload mechanism for them, there just isn't yet

[brave crown]

not yet, but for making waypoint files, this interface makes it so you dont need to use the console and learn commands: #1376930844597551146 message

[dire geode]

how would I go around to testing multiplayer bots?

Gonna make sure my PRs still works with the awesome bot feature

[brave crown]

I definitely do need to write a guide soon, but here's the high level:

1. You need to specify a bot_shared_secret on your server (PSK, can be whatever you want)
2. Launch the bots via AlpineFactionLauncher.exe -game -url rf://IP:PORT -bot PSK

where IP:PORT is your server, and PSK is your bot_shared_secret

You can customize the bots further with bot profiles (specified in the server config), but if you don't specify a profile it just uses an average one so thats fine

@dire geode

[dire geode]

thanks!

[prisma dirge]

Works great, easy to use with standard maps.
Is there a way to generate the waypoint files for no-standard maps?

[brave crown]

That is the piece that as I said above will have an autodownload function for

If you want to generate your own you can via the waypoints editor

launch a listen server on the map, use waypoints_edit to open edit mode, then hit the save button. It will make an AWP file in user_maps\waypoints

[brave crown]

working on the autogen algorithm - a big issue I've had for a long time is jump pad routing for the bots. Going much better now

[dire geode]

sitll haven't gotten around with it yet, but i'm gonna blindly believe two of the PR i got should be safe with the new stuffs

[wraith comet]

I'm curious, have you profiled waypoint gen and usage performance on heavier maps?

[brave crown]

i haven't profiled it no

usage performance should be mostly the same regardless though

generation definitely takes way longer though

ctf06 for example, takes several minutes to autogen

it's "walking" around the map from several probes, so it's definitely doing a lot

[gaunt lotus]

https://www.factionfiles.com/ff.php?action=file&id=5878

[brave crown]

oh dear

woo the jump pad autogen seems to work well in most cases

it doesn't get the jump pads in nemesis... but those are a bit unique in flinging the player through a very narrow window

im trying it... this is going to be like a 50mb awp lol

[gaunt lotus]

lolo

that map

[brave crown]

it did take forever, but my protections stopped it from being too crazy lol

there's a max number of hops from a single probe

if there were items between the spawns you could chain these sections together

[brave crown]

bots will soon know how to walk off ledges to access lower levels without having to be manually taught

[boreal ether]

The ultimate test is Dm-Play Mat 😆

[glacial storm]

One map I would definitely recommend for Bot navigation testing is RFU6-Live Mines

Stuff like the conveyor belts, Fusion platforming, those turrets, wind tunnels. And also, apart from fusion grab, most of those should actually be actively avoided for optimal play.

[brave crown]

I'm avoiding trying to teach the bots how to use map-specific mechanics (like the turrets) because honestly it'd be more work than it's worth, and they're never going to use them quite like a human player would. But of course you don't need those things to play the maps

and of course there will always be some mechanics that maps rely on that make bots impractical for those maps. Like, a lot of Kiliad's old maps had very convoluted trigger sequences required to run flags... that stuff is well outside the scope of the bots 😛

They will know how to do basic things of course though - like pressing a button to open a door or extend a bridge, breaking glass to create a path, or making craters to access secrets

[boreal ether]

wow that surprised me. just 2 things a noticed that could do with adding manually

[dire geode]

been a while, been doing clean ups and making improvements for (probably) the next release.

Gyro Autocalibration system got a bit of a upgrade, now you can have it calibrate whenever you're in a Menu or be Always On... or just turn it off. Should work more akin to fortnite's own system.

[thorny pumice]

Does this take in to account servers when fall damage is enabled? some sort of logic check to disable those routes if fall damage enabled?

[thorny pumice]

Curious, you mention accessing secrets and breaking glass for routes, what about geo-shortcuts? I'm thinking specifically of Overlord with the jump pad in the tunnel and the holes you can geo in the floor to drop down etc...?

[brave crown]

it does not, but that wouldn't be difficult to work into the logic

[brave crown]

Yeah those are considered. Technically the way it works is that bots see explosion/shatter targets are a method to bridge two waypoints

so the bot knows "this is a valid route if I do X here"

[thorny pumice]

Just figured might be worth doing, otherwise they'd be choosing to hurt themselves potentially repeatedly 😄

[thorny pumice]

So would you manually have a way point set on the outside of the canyon wall, then one internally on the otherside, followed by the route up the jump pad etc... then when it geos it creates the route through the wall, or is it set as a "route here IF geo first"?

[brave crown]

True, though I honestly can't recall the last time I've seen fall damage turned on in this game :p

[thorny pumice]

I can't either TBF, but I always try to think of every option, better to cover all the options if they exist

[brave crown]

this is from auto generation

If you wanted to manually tweak the position of the explosion target you could, but this should work perfectly fine

the explosion system has 2 elements:

• Explosion targets which tell the bots where they should try to make craters, and what waypoints should be bridged if they do
• Crater waypoints which are created on a geo, and automatically form links to nearby waypoints with LOS, these are the waypoints that the bots would actually use to route through the newly opened pathway

[thorny pumice]

That's cool. I assume the green thing sticking up is the height element of the geo region? As the box appears to be on the floor?

Also for a minute I thought it was saying bots could go UP to the fusion, but it's the opposite 😄

[brave crown]

the box is the explosion target and it's floating in the solid space inside the geometry

the green thing is the Y movement element of the gizmo

for moving the explosion target because i have it selected in the screenshot

the blue and red handles are for X/Z movement

[thorny pumice]

Ah I missed the "handles" 😄

So does it default to the floor?

As I'd have expected it to be centered on the geo region

[brave crown]

no, it defaults to an offset above the height of the midpoint between the 2 bridged waypoints

i think its 1m

[thorny pumice]

Oh right, interesting. Maybe it's just the perspective but it looks feet level to Me 😄

[brave crown]

it doesnt care about the bbox of the geo region, the test for making explosion targets is (very simplified):
If two waypoints WOULD be connected if geometry were not there, check if the midpoint of that connection is in a geo region. If it is, make a explosion target

[thorny pumice]

Ah ok, cool. Clever idea.

So I assume you do an auto-pass and then review any tweaks you want to add/remove?

[brave crown]

for the ones I've done so far yeah - which have all been defaults. It's most important that defaults and maps that are most commonly played, play well of course

I won't be able to manually review and tweak every single one once AWPs (waypoint grid files) start being generated for the huge amount of maps out there, but for those it'll probably just be testing by observation. Play the maps with bots and if the bots do weird things, figure out why and tweak the waypoints then

this is why im putting so much dev time into autogeneration 😛

autogeneration should be to a point soon where it creates usable (even if not 100% ideal) waypoints for 99% of maps without needing tweaks

and also mappers will be encouraged to provide waypoint files for their new uploads, so they have the opportunity to tweak them themselves

[prisma dirge]

I am using the autogenerate tool for generating the awp files.
I can see the generated files are readable textfiles,

After some tests I saw the server is crashing sometimes the clients / or causing them to disconnect.

Error message on the client bot:
[1861.09] WARN: af_process_server_req_packet: invalid remote handle 50af00a5

The last map before the clients crashed: Dm-NukeTown2050.rfl (TDM) with autogenerated awp file.

[brave crown]

@prisma dirge these are headless bots, right?

[prisma dirge]

yes but also normal Cliet

[brave crown]

hm? what do you mean?

"normal client"?

like, non-bot?

[prisma dirge]

Yes, non bot client for watching the server, and 4 headless bot-clients that are crashing at same time

[brave crown]

the non-bot client is also crashing?

can you send me a crash dump?

AlpineFaction-crash.zip in RedFaction\logs

[prisma dirge]

Not crashing, it is only disconnecting

[brave crown]

is the server dead at that point?

or can the non-bot client reconnect?

[prisma dirge]

No server is alive

I could rejoin but I have a script taht starts server and clients at same time

testing rejoin

[brave crown]

the server is still on nuketown there right?

[prisma dirge]

yes it is on the serverlist i guess

[brave crown]

ok, thanks. If you can send me the crash dump that would be helpful

[prisma dirge]

Oh no Server is not responding also

I restart server and remove Nuketwon from maprotation and will check if server is crashing again in one hour

[thorny pumice]

I've not been following developments too well, is this being baked into RED or is it a seperate tool?

[brave crown]

the waypoint editor is in the game, and it produces a standalone waypoint file (.awp) for the map

[thorny pumice]

Oh, ok that's interesting!

[brave crown]

this screenshot was from the waypoint editor in game

this is what the waypoint files look like

if i were designing this at Volition in 2000, I probably would have embedded these in the rfl file

but given the thousands of existing rfls, it's not practical. So separate files make more sense

[thorny pumice]

That's fair and considering we don't need these files unless planning to run bots (so assume the server owners), most users don't need to know how these work

Do you plan to make this available on the auto-downloader for servers when changing maps?

Sorry, got lots of questions today 😄

[brave crown]

Right. Well, server operators don't really even need to know how they work, they just need to know they need them :p mappers moreso should know how they work

AWP files will be supported on the autodownloader yes, I'm not 100% sure what that experience looks like yet but it will, and it will be as seamless as possible

[prisma dirge]

Is there a command similar to sv_checkmaps to see if a map example.rfl has an according waypoint file with name example.awp ?
I did autogenerate the files, but now I don't know which maps have no awp up to now (I could write a script, but if there is an existing command I would this command instead)

[brave crown]

There is no command like that currently. Just check your user_maps/waypoints folder. They're all there

[gaunt lotus]

honestly, they're a pretty good "offline" experience as well, so while the UX isn't great for local botgames right now (you have to manually run a dedi and spawn all the bot processes), this could be something that improves for 1.4, 1.5, etc.

there are pros and cons to them being individual processes, but since the game is single threaded, it's mostly a pro right now as anyone with a multicore chip could easily run the game at full speed + some bots

[thorny pumice]

I don't think I'd ever run them locally, purely because I'd be even more depressed getting pwned by a bot than I am when I get pwned by you lot.

[gaunt lotus]

they are very tunable

[thorny pumice]

Accuracy 0.1%....

[gaunt lotus]

I think goober hasn't mentioned this much but the configuration profile for them is kind of enormous

they have a pretty deep finite state machine and goal routines

[brave crown]

this is correct, I definitely have not mentioned that much lol

[gaunt lotus]

and in spite of all that, it's still really difficult to get a bot to understand the more nuanced macro concepts of the game

like if you give them insane aim and play FFA, it would be a nightmare for sure

but they aren't that good at 1on1 or team modes yet

[brave crown]

the bot profiles involve configuring a preset, and then you can tweak the individual aspects separately beyond that

[gaunt lotus]

i dont think we've tested but in theory they can play mods, too

but if the mod's movement differs from the base game too much (lego) they would probably be really shit

[brave crown]

have not tested, but they will try to play them for sure. The movement and weapon/powerup tiering is based on the stock game though, so their value assessments would probably be very wrong

[gaunt lotus]

good for weird, hive, etc. maybe ISM on some maps, not accounting for objs

[brave crown]

like in Tactical for example, the mac 10 is the rail gun. The bots will see that as extremely valuable (because the rail gun is), even though the mac 10 probably shouldnt be

[brave crown]

actually yeah, the bots would probably be very very confused on ism right now

since they would see it as CTF, but one of the flags is inaccessible

I actually dont know what would happen there 🤔

I'm guessing the team that has the flag would probably just freeze because it has no route to its own base, and the other team would just basically play tdm mode

[gaunt lotus]

interesting

well ISM bases have the weapons in the base

so i wonder who wins

the aggressive bots or the ones piled up in their base

probably the aggro ones

[brave crown]

Probably yeah lol

I also have no clue how the value assessments for the weapons would work out

[fallow valley]

i'm shocked it's not imgui

when u getting on ida pro mcp so u can get claude to reimplement red faction 1

[brave crown]

I am already using mcp :p

[fallow valley]

crazy

i've seen someone try to reimplement cod2 with a MCP and claude which in turn should've been simpler than cod4 cuz no fastfiles (and there's the Mac build with symbols) but they gave up on it and called it a failure

[split sleet]

hey plz check dm's ive send u very interesting RED project interesting

technicalities problem

map

development thingy

a lot of ; and <>

[thorny pumice]

Much technical, very wow. 😅

[dire geode]

flick stick is added in, but is considered experimental feature

(reality: i still don't have enough space, use config or joy_flickstick on the console)

[brave crown]

This is really great work @dire geode

[dire geode]

i also gave a shot at adding some sort of a scrolling feature inorder to add more options...but i gave up and scrapped it

i'll just wait for the menu overhaul instead and just focus on finishing everything else.

[brave crown]

yeah that needs to be confined to some sort of container or something (and tbh, that should be separate to this PR anyway)

[dire geode]

which means: those who want to adjust the gyro smoothing/tightening/flick stick sens, etc...will have to be done via cmd or .ini for the time being

[gaunt lotus]

probably fair for now, the menus need work far beyond just this so yea

[dire geode]

ok, the gamepad pr is essentially complete...?

i think?

unless it needs additional testings: I'll plan to add it to changelog soon (ideally for the next release)

[dire geode]

ok, i'm currently reviewing your comments for mouse scale.

@brave crown, so i believe i accidentally found a bug with the ms clamp while i was comparing to master branch...which I fixed unknowingly

turns out: the ms clamp only applies in console commands, but it's outright ignored for the alpine settings ui portion. you can bypass the ms clamp via Alpine Settings! I haven't check the config portion yet. (also applies to alpine_settings.ini)

I can apply the clamp for the UI for the sake of continuity (but only for Classic), or just straight up remove the clamp altogether.

[brave crown]

Oh, good call - i had not realized that. In that case yeah don't worry about restoring the clamp to classic mode for the ms console command

[dire geode]

i love accidentally fixing a bug

[brave crown]

lol :p

[dire geode]

ok, now missing one more newline to fix.

hmm... it's actually removed...but github diff doesn't wanna

ok, i think everything's solve

the vehicle camera scaling portion? I'll admit: it's taken from nick's very own joystick camera vehicle fix...just repurposed somewhat.

since Raw is just...Raw, it's based upon it. but if switching to modern mode: the vehicle scaling gets messed up. this is why Modern has a multiplier function that to match it the actual mouse scale of id tech's (vehicle camera's scale is based upon Classic's default mouse)

that request might require rewriting it to cover all input styles and mouse scales, but i'll let nick to decide the fix.

[brave crown]

i need to test out both in game and see what it feels like I guess - looking at the code it seemed off to apply a vehicle scalar to modern but not raw

[dire geode]

yea, it'll be good feedback for nick in particular.

[gaunt lotus]

i can build it all and take a look but what do u mean by it gets messed up

like, too fast? does it mess up the physics for the vehicles somehow?

the vehicles are so jank anyway, ugh

[brave crown]

also the mouse aim in some vehicles is used to turn the vehicle, and can be stopped/slowed by the vehicle collising with stuff

and in others it's intentionally floaty (rot accel) lol

tbh I just tested it and I think it feels fine

[dire geode]

while I was testing the tutorial's submarine: it moves too fast under Modern scale mode. That's why there's a multiplier reduction to remedy it

Raw scale works the same as Gamepad Joystick, tho.

Classic doesn't apply the vehicle fix, it already worked to begin with.

[brave crown]

im good to merge this PR now

[brave crown]

were you still taking a look at it?

ill wait for that if you are, but im good to go on this one unless you see a problem in your test

[dire geode]

I believe the turrets should work fine with both Modern and Raw. It should use the same player camera as before...but we can double-check just-in-case

won't be home til then

[gaunt lotus]

if u think its fine it probably is tbh

i wont have time to test it for awhile (day or two at least)

[simple valley]

QUESTION, does remove player weapon work in multi, I have a dumb idea but it wont work if people spawn with pistols

[gaunt lotus]

IIRC it does

[simple valley]

[dire geode]

fun fact: mouse scale (with or without the clamp fix) has no cap in place.

you can go crazy lol.

unfortunately, the Gamepad's gyro mouse is capped to 30 (matches Steam Input's gyro sens cap), but not the joystick camera cuz I haven't figured out which cap I should put

[dire geode]

i double-checked, it works! 👍

[brave crown]

Thanks for that @dire geode ! I've merged your PR