Alpine Faction

[brave crown]

no, 3 different modes

[shut vector]

King of the hill is KOTH

[brave crown]

so

for KOTH:
koth-mymap.rfl
kothmymap.rfl
koth_mymap.rfl
(all good)

for DC:
dc-mymap.rfl
dcmymap.rfl
dc_mymap.rfl

for REV:
rev-mymap.rfl
revmymap.rfl
rev_mymap.rfl

[brave crown]

yes

[desert crown]

btw

who started pdm

[brave crown]

now, any of these maps could be played in any mode of course, but the prefix should be what they were designed for

[shut vector]

Whats the full names of DC and REV?

[desert crown]

Damage Control

[brave crown]

no different than playing a CTF map in DM

[desert crown]

Revolt

(DC is pulling from the RF:G mode is my understanding)

[brave crown]

TrotSkie, in Pure Faction. pdm = Pure DM, pctf = Pure CTF

[shut vector]

makes sense, keep it within RF

[desert crown]

ive never come across pctf 😮

and if thats the case why are so many run maps titled pdm 🤣

[brave crown]

Yes, KOTH is King of the Hill (most similar to OW/TF2 I think, though obviously some differences)

DC is Damage Control (most similar to RF:G Damage Control)

REV is Revolt (most similar to Breakthrough from BF, Assault from UT, Attack from OW, etc.)

[brave crown]

originally the pdm/pctf distinction was TrotSkie's way of preventing Pure maps (which relied on PF trigger features that the stock game didnt support, like teleporters) from being played without PF

[desert crown]

ah

[brave crown]

pdm01/02/03 (by me) and pctf01/02/03 (by TrotSkie) were included in the PF 3.0 install

[brave crown]

@shut vector meant to quote you here - game type descriptions

[shut vector]

https://tenor.com/view/facepalm-really-stressed-mad-angry-gif-16109475

I wish I had some time to get to work on my maps but lately work has been busy AF

[brave crown]

DC is also somewhat similar to Onslaught from UT, but you don't need to control the previous point to capture a new point
(just because I know you've played UT and I don't know if you played much RF:G)

You get points per second, per capture point you own

(your team owns)

[shut vector]

There been any updates lately to Alpine?

(Shows how long ago I opened it - Thanks work)

[desert crown]

not yet

1.2 is when all this will come out

[brave crown]

What we're talking about is for Alpine 1.2, which isn't released yet of course. Alpine 1.1 is currently the latest release

[shut vector]

I best get back to work, got issues flying in now

[desert crown]

[brave crown]

talking about king of the hill is clearly a sev 1 😛

have a good day man 😛

[thorny pumice]

Grey Matter has ALWAYS held a fascination for Me, I'm not sure why.

I even made a GM2 😄

Spikey made a map that has the same name as mine? 😄

@brave crown so the Revolt game mode, is it purely a "hold" objective timer? Or can we implement other methods to "Complete" the objective?

As an example, destroying a clutter object

My assault map that I was working on for RFU7 I've moved forward with, but the points are not purely "Hold for X seconds" type of checkpoints.

I guess I could game it, by having you fulfil the other objects for the objective become reachable.

(EG: Destroy the shield generators to expose the check point)

I'm happy to knock a couple of maps together for the new game modes if you're after some maps @brave crown

[brave crown]

same 😛 I always loved that map. I have fond memories of 32-player DM pubs back in the day lol

[brave crown]

Currently it's just using the control points. In theory alternative win conditions could be implemented, but I'm somewhat reluctant because I feel the strength of having it as a specific gamemode (vs. the ad-hoc created Assault-style maps RF has always had) is the standardization and consistency, which helps players know what to do and reduce confusion.

That said, a mapper could always do other things in the map around the control points. Doors that open only when clutter objects are destroyed (and the control point is behind the door), for example (as you said)

[brave crown]

❤️ that would be awesome! 🙂 I'm looking forward to making some myself obviously, but I'm most excited to see what other mappers do and all the interesting and unique concepts and layouts that come out of it

[brave crown]

Just to expand on this point - here's how I look at it:

For traditional assault-style gameplay in RF (and other games for that matter), there are 2 challenges for the mapper:

1. Make a cool map with interesting areas and objectives
2. Teach players how to play it

Players have to learn how to play it, then play it well - which is a higher barrier to entry when compared to other modes (DM/CTF) where they just need to learn to play the map, because they already know how to play the gametype

KOTH/DC/REV all use control points, and the control points all work basically the same way across the modes (some very small differences, but as a general matter they're the same), which means players will very quickly learn the mechanics.

REV takes advantage of that by using mechanics that players will likely already know. The barrier to entry for players is reduced from learning how the mode works + learning how the map works + learning the map's layout + playing it well, to just learning the map's layout + playing it well, and REV maps are more approachable as a result

The challenge for a REV mapper is just to make a cool map with interesting areas. The mechanics, players already know

that's the way I look at it anyway. Traditionally Assault-style maps in RF have been a pain to teach players what's going on, and the biggest cause of that is that Assault-style maps in RF have never really had established standards for mechanics. You learn how the "mode" works in one map, then have to learn an entirely different set of gameplay mechanics for the next map. Players usually just end up DMing because they don't know what else to do 😛

[thorny pumice]

That's fair... I was just thinking, could you configure the control point to receive a signal from the RF event system, so it can be "completed" by some external factor?

My thinking is thus, using my assault map as an example.

First "checkpoint" is to breakthrough the door of the fort. This can be done by standing in the control point at the door for X seconds.
Alternatively, there is a secondary geo-mod route to bypass the door, thus achieving the same effect and it could "trigger" the control point to be captured?

(I appreciate this could cause confusion/deviation from the original game mode, but most maps wouldn't probably utilise it)

On a second note, is the time to capture adjustable, or is it fixed?

[thorny pumice]

Happy to work on some. When do you plan to release? I can try to get a couple of maps knocked up.
(I assume although I can create a basic map, I'd need a test build of Alpine to add the newer elements in and test)

[brave crown]

Ahh I see what you mean. I don't generally think it'd be a positive idea, at least at this early stage, to actually do that in a map, but putting the framework in place to let a mapper do it if desired probably wouldn't be much lift. I see two components:

1. The gametype should treat two Capture Points with the same stage ID (ie. placement in the progression) as an AND - so you'd need to capture all of stage 2's points for example before moving to stage 3. If there's only 1 point at each stage (which would likely be most common), it would behave as it already does
2. an event like Modify_Capture_Point or something which would let you use an event system/trigger to set the lock status and owner of a specific linked point

[brave crown]

It's fixed per gametype. 3 rates:

• Capture rate
• Drain rate idle
• Drain rate enemy in zone

Having the capture rate configurable per point might be interesting. Most other games with capture points do have some variation on capture time between maps/points - like "safer" points taking longer to capture or such

[thorny pumice]

An AND along with an OR would be amazing.

"Take the upper route and capture the helipad, OR capture the submarine bay"

[brave crown]

Timeframe is officially When It's Ready(tm), but in a practical sense we're not looking at an enormous amount of time

That said, before v1.2 is actually "properly" released, I am going to release a beta for testing here - I want to get some players on the new modes to fine tune the rules (if needed) before the proper release

[brave crown]

My thinking was that AND should be the behaviour, and that OR could be in effect accomplished by a mapper through combining a Modify_Capture_Point with a When_Captured catalyst (names TBD obviously)

[thorny pumice]

Ah, I see what you mean, sure that could work. Downside is using the OR method mentioned, means you wouldn't have a CP marker for the alternate route?

[thorny pumice]

So in this example, the helipad would have the marker, but not the sub bay?

[brave crown]

Both would, because they'd both be capture points. Just they both effectively get "captured" when either one gets captured

[thorny pumice]

I'll start looking into something then.

I'd LOVE to make some inspired by Titanfall for DC as Hardpoint was a favourite game mode of mine. They'd need a massive rework though to be playable.

[brave crown]

Tbh the trickiest part of AND/OR (multi CP at the same stage in general) would be how ti display that on the HUD

[thorny pumice]

Oh I see, so they're set up as an AND, but the event you mentioned would trigger them both to be captured.

[brave crown]

the HUD currently just has a top-down list, which is totally appropriate for Damage Control and REV with sequential points

ideally there would be something like TF2 (google screenshot, ignore circled area, I'm showing the HUD at the bottom)

clearly indicating that E requires ABCD be unlocked before you can unlock E

actually wait, im just realizing that cp_steel (which is the map that came to mind here) doesn't actually do that lol

[thorny pumice]

That HUD setup is confusing to Me 😄

[brave crown]

Yeah :p I'm just saying that talking about multiple CPs at a single stage, the HUD becomes a challenge

Also, tbh the difficulty curve to play the map also becomes far more steep

because suddenly the blue team has to split resources to battling on multiple fronts at once

[thorny pumice]

My thought would be:

Similar with sequential:
A - B - C - D.

If B is an AND objective, still show it as:
A - B - C - D

Could maybe "half fill" the B when one side is taken?

I suspect very few maps would do this, so it is more niche, but it's always nice to have options and allow for choice.

[brave crown]

It is, I agree - but it's also a tricky balance with keeping the mechanics streamlined and consistent to lessen the difficulty curve for players :p

[thorny pumice]

Anyhoo, I'll start by looking at DC and KOTH I think.

What limitations are in place for each?

KOTH - 1 Objective? Team Based spawning?
DC - X Objectives? All spawns active, or do they enable/disable as points are captured?

Got to step away. Will catch up later 👍

[brave crown]

Both are team gamemodes, so team flags on spawn points are recognized

KOTH has a centrally-located control point

DC has many (technically up to 32, though I wouldn't recommend more than probably 5 tbh) control points, typically each one being smaller than the one central point in KOTH

On DC, spawn points work the same as KOTH/TDM/CTF, BUT if you link a control point to a specific spawn point, that spawn point becomes dependant on that control point. ie. Only the team that owns the point can spawn there, and the spawn is disabled if the control point is neutral

Unlinked spawn points work the same as in every other team mode

[gaunt lotus]

i like the path beat is going down here, as it would let you make ET style maps. but there's a notable increase in complexity for building/planning maps like that, and there's also a waaaaaaay steeper learning curve for playing them

i think it would warrant some kind of 4th or additional game mode, effectively, where there's more flexibility for the mapper to determine the win condition(s)

[brave crown]

You like the path beat is beating down?

[thorny pumice]

I'd not recommend going down this road I'm on...

https://tenor.com/view/wipper-arc-en-ciel-super-mario-cart-rainbow-road-race-star-gif-16228463

[brave crown]

Just a note - I will be busy basically every hour until friday lol so progress will be slow

Last night I did implement a capture rate multiplier param that mappers can control, and dynamic adjustment of capture/drain rate based on # of players in the zone. Current math is:
1 player = 1.0x rate
2 players = 1.5x rate
3+ players = 2.0x rate

similar to the math overwatch uses, at least from memory

[zinc quiver]

@brave crown
not sure what's going on but certain people getting kicked regularly from your DM server
toto50 / slicer / mati
thought i'd let you know

[zinc quiver]

now also both of your bots got kicked

[brave crown]

Kicked regularly? 😮

just had a look at the server console - looks like there may have been a connection issue at some point, some players (including the bots) got kicked due to broken connection

mati got kicked because they're running Dash Faction, which can't load the level the server switched to. The others were due to a connection issue

[brave crown]

I have time to think again 🥳

[brave crown]

ok so @thorny pumice building on our conversation before - technically the tools exist now to do a lot of it. Each stage still has to be a control point though, in Revolt.

That said, the system is modular, so if in the future there were the desire to have other types of objectives (like destroying clutter objects, etc.) that would be pretty straightforward to implement. to @gaunt lotus 's comment though, that may fit better in another gametype. At the very least if it weren't a separate gametype, I'd like to avoid it for the first handful of Revolt maps because standardization and consistency is really the biggest benefit Revolt has over traditional RF Assault maps

But, with the events above, plus the change I implemented last night to treat control points with the same stage ID with an AND, more advanced control point layouts are certainly possible

(Like for example, needing to capture 3 separate points at stage 2 before stage 3 unlocks)

And you could script an OR by using When_Captured and Set_Control_Point_Owner

As an aside, I also implemented a change this morning which in REV makes respawn points active whenever any control point which links to them is active

The effect is that for example you can have Point A and Point B which both link to the same respawn point (because they're in similar locations) and players will be able to respawn at that point up until both Point A and Point B are completed/locked

(Of course with the new Modify_Respawn_Point event, used in conjunction with the capture point events above, if you wanted to script some more advanced logic for respawn points, you certainly can 🙂 )

[brave crown]

Oh yeah I should also mention - anything that modifies spawn points or control points needs to be run on the server. Will do nothing on a client.

The Owner_Gate and When_Captured can be used for clientside scripting too, though

[brave crown]

figured the supply depot attack sequence from Kava would be a decent scenario to showcase Revolt

obviously the geometry can't be identical - you need multiple paths, etc. - but it can be a base

[desert crown]

well

getting to the gate is one Capture Point

getting along the bottom and inside the building is another

change the ladder so it actually works and add some ramps to climb up to the top and you have 3

you could also put one in the circle area

[brave crown]

Cave, gate, depot, roof, landing pad, and possibly the shack just below the airlock were the ones I was considering. Might cut the shack, have landing pad and depot, then roof for the finale. Idk will see

[desert crown]

could make the shack a spawn location once you take the ground floor

[brave crown]

True

[brave crown]

I was also considering whether there should be an announcer at all in these gamemodes. Understanding of course that I can't make new voice lines for the announcer unfortunately... there is a pretty good "Code Red Alert!" line I could clip out of one of the SP announcer voice lines, which could work. Perhaps when the final point in Revolt first starts being captured? Might be too goofy though idk

[gaunt lotus]

feels like a down the road kinda thing

if needed

[brave crown]

The announcer? Yeah good call. The only reason I mention it is because I'm wondering if, particularly in revolt, the fact that the game is about to end when the final point is captured, won't be as obvious as it should

Though I guess stock DM/tdm/Ctf have that same dynamic lol

Where unless you're paying close attention, the game might end without you expecting it

[thorny pumice]

All looks great, the only thing I'd be hesitant about in your notes is"potentially adding another game mode". I'd be tempted to say you're best not overdoing the amount of game modes, just so not to dilute the player base any further than it is.
Minor thing though TBF

[brave crown]

Agreed on the point of not overdoing the new gamemodes. That's something I'm trying to be very conscious of (it's also why bagman is not in alpine 1.2 despite how much I badly want to play it personally lol)

Though just to mention, now that players can swap game modes with a vote, and servers can run maps on different game modes in the same rotation, it's much less clunky than it historically has been to play multiple modes

[crude oyster]

How come you can't make new announcer voices? No reason it has to be default announcer voice. Could pull voices from RFG or other games since these game modes exist in those, no?

[brave crown]

It would feel a little wonky, I think anyway, to have a different announcer. Also tbh the announcements in RF:G are really annoying lol

Tbh though nick had a really good point - and thinking about it further, the stock gamemodes don't have announcer lines other than the time limit countdown and "Winner"/"Game Over", so it's probably not even necessary

[crude oyster]

I think different announcer for different game modes would be fine, as long as you're not mixing together different voices for different things in the same game.

Could also probably try using all the stock announcer lines to train an ai voice cloner to make new announcer lines? 😛

I've never played any of these game modes in other games, so guess I'd just have to play and see if it's good with no announcer or if an announcer would be helpful to know when important things happen. Guess mappers could also add their own announcements when things happen, via play sounds if they feel it needs it.

[brave crown]

Yeah they definitely could 🙂 the When_Captured event would make that very straightforward

Also things like opening doors or playing VFX when points are captured

Enabling elevator triggers, etc. loads of possibilities

[crude oyster]

That event work for ctf too? Maybe not when captured but when the flag stolen. Have wanted to do things when the flag has been stolen in the past but didnt have a way to do it. Actually when captured in ctf could be fun too to trigger some sort of celebration effect. 😛

[brave crown]

It works only for capture points, because it has to be linked to a specific capture point event (similar to When_Dead being linked to a clutter/entity)

Events for When_Flag_Stolen and When_Flag_Captured could be done too, for sure. I'd probably have a Red/Blue selection in the properties for those though

[thorny pumice]

Just a thought...

Could you revamp the server browser so that in addition to DM/TDM/CTF, etc... it defaults to ALL which lists EVERY server, regardless of mode?

Instead of an announcer, a SFX to indicate capture and final objective, like a horn? To notify people?

[brave crown]

Doesn't it already?

[thorny pumice]

TBF, I've not updated my client in a while, so maybe? 😅
In game?

Actually, it may already do it by default, it's been a long day, ignore me.

[gaunt lotus]

it has been so long since ive used those filters, given that there are so few servers these days

i actually forgot you can even do that

woulda been nice to have "hide empty" back in the day

[brave crown]

"hide passworded" too

Would have been nice

[brave crown]

implementing support for preset rule configs in ADS dedis

for example, here's the level config for a map

[[levels]]
filename = "kothwap.rfl"
rules_presets = "rp1.toml"```

this brings in the rule preset from rp1.toml, which reads

[rules]
geo_limit = 128
weapons_stay = true
weapon_pickups_give_full_ammo = true
koth_score_limit = 100
game_type = "REV"```

This lets server operators configure rules and reuse them across server configs. Also lets server operators have preset rules and apply them to multiple maps - like if you wanted to make a "rail-server.toml" rule preset and apply it to rail maps in your rotation

You can also load rule presets, then override rules individually if you want a single change from the preset

[brave crown]

[rules_preset_aliases]
preset1 = "rp1.toml"
preset2   = "rp2.toml"

Server operators will also be able to assign presets aliases. These aliases can be used by players when voting

for example

/vote map ctf02 preset1

If it succeeds, will load WL with preset1's rules

same with

/vote match 3v3 ctfwlpro preset1

[split sleet]

community narrated vc dubs

xddddddd

or ai generated stuff

no issues w legality

[gaunt lotus]

@brave crown so i see what happened here now - i self-killed at the same time i got a powerup reward, and then it applied when i respawned?? but maybe not for real, or maybe only on my client

extremely specific scenario here lol

wait no, i died to his AR first but then my rocket got the kill

THEN I got a reward, which should not have happened presumably

this is extremely wonky timing

[brave crown]

Hm. Yeah I think I didn't account for whether you were still alive when the kill happened for the rampage rewards check

If you're already dead yeah you shouldn't get it

[gaunt lotus]

well its weird that i spawned with it at all if i was dead

but then again the server clearly didnt give it to me

but my client thought it did

[brave crown]

Hmmmm

[gaunt lotus]

i dunno what the frame timing is here but the reward sound plays basically when i die here

then i spawn and it gives me invuln

but my player on the server must have already lost it

or never had it

[brave crown]

btw @silk tinsel thanks for mentioning that particle emitter. It was broken by an optimization rafalh had implemented in Dash many years ago (which remains in Alpine) - similar to the particle emitter in the middle of dm-birthday.rfl. I've implemented a fix for this map so now the emitter renders properly again 🙂

[silk tinsel]

i knew that was missing.

[slow yarrow]

<@&660495392512802868> we never remembered this

[desert crown]

i don't remember

was i supposed to

[slow yarrow]

I mean we never remembered that there would of been a big face emitter there back in PF days

[desert crown]

I never played this map in PF

when we had PF i tended to only play run maps or Angels server - which tended to favour other maps

tbh i barely played it on DF until your server

[brave crown]

is there a specific reason you want ambient occlusion?

Tbh if I were to start listing the graphics improvements I'd personally like to see, I'm not sure ambient occlusion would make my top 10. But I'm curious what your use case is?

[brave crown]

@zinc quiver implemented the dbg_numgeos command per your request https://github.com/GooberRF/alpinefaction/issues/169

[brave crown]

🥳 well, there are a handful of very minor things I want to squeeze into v1.2 but for the most part Alpine v1.2 is now feature complete. Giving it a few days because I have some cleanup I still want to do, but I'm hoping to have a public beta posted here by this weekend to get some testing in with a larger group 🙂

v1.2 proper release isn't far out now 👀

[wraith comet]

I'll be ready to test it. 😎👉👉

[brave crown]

🥳

I really want to get some basically "stress testing" of KOTH with more than 2 players lol

I'll also have a map ready when I post the beta

[zinc quiver]

Great 🙂 thank you!! That will be fun to use and test soon! I appreciate it

[zinc quiver]

epic!!

[desert crown]

Feature complete, ill be the judge

[thorny pumice]

@brave crown how does the point scoring work for KotH?

I'm debating how difficult I need to make the hill to hold vs points.

[desert crown]

It goes up 1 per second iirc

I think

[thorny pumice]

And average winning score is...?

Cap limit if you will

[desert crown]

When we were testing it on his overwatch type map i think he set it at 300

[thorny pumice]

Ok, so a winner needs to hold for 300 seconds atm in theory... which is 5 minutes?

[desert crown]

but 500 could easily be a high cap

[thorny pumice]

I can't recall if it's Team based, it is right?

[desert crown]

again i think it depends on map

KOTH is team based yeah

its TDM with an obj

For Damage Control (the one with multi capture points) i believe he set it to 500

so like if uhave 3 points its going up 3 per second

[thorny pumice]

So what I'm trying to gauge is:

If it's easy to score points and "win" then defenders need to be at a detriment to the attackers to enable turnover more often.

If it's tough to score points and win, then the defenders need extra help to fend off the attackers, do you see what I mean?

So do you make the hill really defendable or more open to attack

[desert crown]

sec let me get a SS of goobers map

[thorny pumice]

Cheers man

It's probably open to either approach but I wouldn't want to make a hill so open that no-one can basically win as it's just a bloodbath, or make it so defendable the attackers never get a chance to turn over the hill.

[desert crown]

so this is the map he's using as an example

thats the control point

its mirrored obviously

[thorny pumice]

Ok, interesting, so 2 teams both assaulting from opposite ends, control point relatively open, but some cover... ok.

So comparable to a default RF flag room in essence (think Nemesis)

[desert crown]

This is what i believ he's pulled from an overwatch map

[thorny pumice]

Cheers bud, I'll be able to work with this I hope.

[desert crown]

You could look at examples

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0VTY8HgTrM&pp=ygUab3ZlcndhdGNoIGtpbmcgb2YgdGhlIGhpbGw%3D this is an OW map (not this one) I believe ^

[thorny pumice]

Aye, I've played KotH in other games, so know the basics, just capturing the hill in Perfect Dark for example is easier/tougher than in other games like Halo or OW.

[desert crown]

I played it in a Quake 2 mod called Digital Paintball 2 but like it played extremely differently just called KOTH 😛 so thats why i say

[thorny pumice]

Yeah, I get the concept of the way Goober's doing it, but it's trying to balance TTK.

[desert crown]

absolutely

[gaunt lotus]

there's a lot less sustain in something like RF so yeah, not all of the variables are worked out here yet

there's a lot of room to experiment mapping wise

[thorny pumice]

Yeah, understandable and a large portion can be tweaked with things like adding in walls, or LoS blocking debris. Health pack/armour add/removed etc...

One KotH map may decide no armour/health packs nearby so defenders have to choose to leave to gain health for example.

[gaunt lotus]

yeah, unclear right now exactly how many armor/item pickups should be normal in the map etc

[thorny pumice]

I'll see what I can knock together I've got a couple of ideas.

[gaunt lotus]

in most games you dont want to actually be on the point unless you need to capture it, and the action happens adjacent to/in front of it

and it probably won't be any different here

[thorny pumice]

I feel it needs to be relatively easy to assault rather than it being like a pillbox.

[thorny pumice]

True, just to check, if you leave the Hill, does it stay on your team, or reset to Neutral?

[gaunt lotus]

yeah I think in general it should be flankable and not necessarily a great place to defend from

it stays captured

the capture mechs are very similar to OW

once your team holds it, the enemy team needs to get on point and contest/capture it from your team

there's no incentive to stand on point unless it's being contested

[thorny pumice]

Ok, will keep that in mind for designing as that's fundamental shift compared to PD for example.

But PD does KotH differently to most others.

[gaunt lotus]

yeah, not sure how it worked in PD but if it required the team to stand on it then the design would need to be veeeeeery different

and it might be kinda frustrating at low player counts (having to stand on the point even when nothing is happening)

[thorny pumice]

(Have to stand on and hold the hill for 20 seconds to score 1 point, leaving the zone resets the timer, once it's captured the hill moves elsewhere.)

I'm aware this mode wasn't doing the hill moving etc... but good to know exact details.

[desert crown]

in b4 someone actually just does make an actual hill

[thorny pumice]

I suspected it was the way you've mentioned.

[thorny pumice]

Already exists.

[desert crown]

IN RF

[gaunt lotus]

hahaha feel free to make a map where the capture point is on a mover that floats around the map randomly and you have to catch it

[desert crown]

AND FUCK THAT "KOTH" MAP

[gaunt lotus]

that would be hilarious, i'd play it exactly once

[desert crown]

omg 😭

[gaunt lotus]

we can have a whole slew of new meme maps

[desert crown]

Micro Faction KOTH

[thorny pumice]

Can the cap move? 😄

I'm down for that.

[desert crown]

I mean it can be in a group i imagine

[gaunt lotus]

that's more of a goober question I think, but uh, i'd guess it probably can

[thorny pumice]

https://tenor.com/view/excellent-happy-mr-burns-simpsons-satisfied-gif-16091269

A map where you can "move" the hill to your base using a switch 😄

[desert crown]

beatonator coming out to ruin everyones day with a moving capture point

[thorny pumice]

or making your day?

[desert crown]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[thorny pumice]

Who knows until we try 😛

[desert crown]

I know a few 😄

[gaunt lotus]

I think this Revolt mode we've cooked up will be super fun as well, especially for GN, but it may be some ways out from having a good demo map

[desert crown]

1.2 should be the release of the tools and then a map pack for a 1.3 with 3-4 maps per mode if its possible

[gaunt lotus]

the easiest mode to map for will probably be damage control - you can just take any normal, reasonably sized TDM map and slap capture points into it

[thorny pumice]

You can, but that's a lazy approach. I'm tempted to cookiecutter some default RF DM/CTF maps and tweak them to make maps that feel default.

[brave crown]

I never designed it specifically for that but thinking about how it works... I think it would probably work fine :p

To answer the earlier question specifically, scoring is 1 pt per sec for the team that holds the point

You hold the point after capturing it until either the map ends or the enemy captures it away from you

Point collection is paused if:

• an enemy is currently on the point; or
• the enemy has capture progress on the point

For example if red holds the point and blue captures up to 50% before the blue team players all die (or walk off the point), scoring is paused until blue's progress drains back to 0. It drains automatically slowly but drains much quicker if red stands on the point

[thorny pumice]

Cheers @brave crown for the updates. I'll take that into consideration for designing

[brave crown]

Perfect 🙂

And to note - control points in DC work similarly, the only critical difference being that in DC, capturing a point from an enemy turns that point neutral again and then you capture it for your team. In KOTH, points never go back to neutral they just get passed from team to team

[thorny pumice]

Ah ok, worth knowing.

[brave crown]

also for your reference these are the settings available when configuring capture points

ignore "Position", that may be removed (it's intended for 3CP/5CP modes but I'm not sure that will be in AF 1.2, and if not I'll hide that setting)

Stage is relevant only for Revolt mode, ignored in KOTH/DC

[thorny pumice]

Is it a square box if cylindrical is unticked?

Delay being used for event system, so it can be used in a sequence to activate music for example?

Outline I assume is how far out the boundary is (visually or as an active effect?)

[brave crown]

you can ignore delay on this event, it has no inherent effect when activated so the delay has no function

You can use either a box or a sphere trigger to specify the capture zone. You link the Capture_Point_Handler to the trigger. If Cylindrical Trigger is ticked, it changes the area of your trigger into a cylinder (there are no cylindrical shape triggers in RF)

If it's a sphere, the cylinder will have the same radius as the sphere. If it's a box, the cylinder will have the same diameter as the longest edge of the box

[brave crown]

correct - just the visual

that setting exists for example if your capture point is in a valley or on uneven terrain - you can offset the outline to more closely match the terrain of the area

also just to mention - I will eventually have an info sheet on the wiki explaining how to map for these modes, it's just not done yet 😛

oh and the cap rate multiplier - if it's 0, it's ignored (same as 1.0)

If it's not 0, it's applied as a multiplier to the capture rate. Specifying 2 for example makes the point capture twice as quick. Specifying 0.5 makes it capture in double the standard amount of time

[thorny pumice]

Ok, so if using cylindrical with a box trigger, it chops the corners off as in the cylinder is as big as possible INSIDE the box, but does not protrude?

[brave crown]

correct

[thorny pumice]

Ok, so you can customise the cap rate for harder "hills" vs a map with an "easy" hill. Nice one.

[brave crown]

example of cylindrical trigger

[thorny pumice]

Yep, perfect. Does the trigger mechanically become a circle, or if I stood in a corner outside of the circle but inside the square, does it still trigger?

[brave crown]

so, the capture point area doesn't technically use the bounds of the trigger object, it just uses the dimensions of the trigger object as a guide. The capture point area follows the outline - it is truly cylindrical

[thorny pumice]

Ok, perfect, good to know.

[brave crown]

https://github.com/GooberRF/alpinefaction/commit/c74b5130f6c291dcacb4f0314b1284335215e0d9
Fixed that issue that has annoyed me for many years where "One minute remaining" and the 10s countdown at the end of a map won't play a second time if the map is extended after they already played (also very noticeable when overtime is called in matches)

Now the sounds play every time

[thorny pumice]

Just thought last night, an animated VBM on the menu flickers on first playthrough anyway to resolve that?

So I noticed it in my RF2 mod, the animation flickers but once complete and loops, it plays seamlessly.

Oh, also just noticed that once in game and coming back to the menu the animation has stopped 😐

[brave crown]

I noticed the same on the animated menu background for AQSRE 🙁 I don't know what causes it or how tricky it would be to solve though - I would have thought vbm handling for the entire game would be handled the same honestly lol

I will take a look for sure, but I can't make any promises on that one, though I would like to fix it certainly

[thorny pumice]

No worries, I thought it may be worth a peek, but ultimately as much as it is annoying, it's not game breaking.

[brave crown]

btw @elfin moth I thought it made sense to add you to this thread since it has a lot of discussion that will probably interest you (the new gametypes, new events, etc.)

[elfin moth]

King of the hill?

[brave crown]

yes

Alpine 1.2 introduces 3 new gametypes:

• King of the Hill (1 central control point, +1pt per sec for the team that controls it, winner is the team that reaches the score limit first)
• Damage Control (basically the same as KOTH but multiple points around the map)
• Revolt (scenario-based mode where red attacks and blue defends multiple zones, red wins when they capture the last zone, blue wins if the time runs out)

@elfin moth sry forgot to tag and idk if you have notifications on

[brave crown]

Here's Alpine Faction v1.2.0-beta1, ready for testing - everyone welcome! 🥳 (PLEASE GIVE ME FEEDBACK)

IMPORTANT NOTES - READ BEFORE DOWNLOADING

• This is a BETA. It may (likely will) have bugs, and everything you see may be subject to change. The purpose of this beta release is to identify any such bugs or foundational issues with gametype rules before the final release. There MAY be another beta release before the stable release of v1.2.0, depending on what issues are discovered during this first beta period
• If you notice bugs, please let me know in this thread so they can be handled before the full release.
• DO NOT overwrite your stable Alpine 1.1.0 install with this. Put it in a different folder.
• DO NOT use the in-game server list favourites function to favourite the FF KOTH test server.
• For those of you who play matches in the match server, please continue using Alpine v1.1.0 stable for matches, not this beta.
• For level designers, please do not use the editor in this beta for any maps you care about, though do feel free to test the editor and its features. There is a chance (albeit a very small one) that maps made using this beta could become corrupt if the level format changes before the full Alpine 1.2.0 release.

Now for the fun stuff:

• The FactionFiles.com [KOTH] server is online, rotation includes the 3 KOTH test maps I have prepared for this test. Server is running KOTH mode, and the maps are all on the autodownloader so you can download them when you join the server.
• A new vote type has been introduced to change the server's gametype. You can use it with vote gametype TYPE MAP (or vote gt TYPE MAP for short). TYPE is a gametype abbreviation (DM, TDM, CTF, KOTH, DC, or REV) and MAP is a level filename. Feel free to test out this functionality in the KOTH server 🙂
• There are a bunch of new console commands and a few new options in the Advanced options menu in-game. Feel free to explore 🙂

The full changelog for Alpine is here if you'd like to read about the new features and bug fixes: https://github.com/GooberRF/alpinefaction/blob/master/docs/CHANGELOG.md

I'll try to get a few folks on at the same time to play some KOTH at some point in the next few days, but feel free to check it out yourself in the server before that 🙂

[gaunt lotus]

goober, you know that weapon idle animation? u should make a keybind that forces it to play, and restarts it instantly from the beginning if you tap it repeatedly

:x

[brave crown]

lmao

fucking cs

@silent perch

[crude oyster]

Lot of DX11 things in the changelog, is DX11 fully functional now or does it still need work before it becomes the recommended renderer? 🤔

[brave crown]

"fully functional" is difficult to fully qualify :p I use it myself exclusively apart from testing, fwiw.

There are a few small areas where dx11 isn't perfect but they're relatively minor. I don't know if they need to be handled before it's "recommended" or not

[gaunt lotus]

i would recommend it unless you can't tolerate the items looking a bit dark atm

i dunno what else is messed up

oh - if you play without fullbright enemies, the lighting trick doesn't work in maps that use it

[crude oyster]

Hmm mesh lighting in general doesn't seem to work fully yet. Look at this scene from Catan-Pasture. First 8 sec is dx 9 and last 8 sec is dx 11 on beta. The static light above the fire isn't lighting up the mesh that covers the ground or the benches or the tree at night and the dynamic light creating a flicker on the player model isn't working in dx 11. So guess it's not quite ready for mainstream yet. 😛

[boreal ether]

when coming to an end on multi KOTH the announcer doesnt count down from 10 anymore. Havent tested nornaml server yet. oh wait thats because the capture counter ran up to 100 and won the game nm

when the counter gets to 90, should play a note every second it counts up increasing in pitch

[desert crown]

thought we were doing 300? 😮

personal opinion you might wanna invis wall the side here

[brave crown]

Mesh lighting isn't exactly the same as DX9 currently - I want to do static vertex lighting for meshes but that's not done yet. I'm surprised that the ground here is lit differently, though. I don't think that should be the case. You said that's a dynamic light?

[brave crown]

This isn't a bad idea. I was originally thinking to do some type of audio notification when the points were getting close to the end, decided against it mostly because no other RF mode has that. I'm not against it though, would like to get some other views as well

Also, that's a clientside UX thing rather than a core rules thing, so it could always be implemented later if need be

[brave crown]

idk where you got the 300 from specifically lol, the base for the mode has been 100 since creation 😛 Though in playing last night I think it was very clear that 100 is a bit low as a default. Of course the server can configure it, but 300 or maybe even 500 would be a solid default, I think

[desert crown]

it was 300 when i tested with you and nick

[brave crown]

Ohhhh, ok. I think that was when I was testing per-level rules and I had set it different as a test :p

[desert crown]

i see 😅

[brave crown]

But yeah, 100 definitely seemed low on the 2v2s we played last night

[desert crown]

gotcha

[brave crown]

balance teams when going to team mode from dm
allow rfsb in new gamemodes
sync gameend score to clients
default koth score to 300
consider sounds for last 5-10 pts to win in koth/dc```

my todo from the beta so far :p

[crude oyster]

It's dynamic lights and a normal light. So daytime is the real terrain, night time is a mesh version of the terrain that is no player collide that caps the day time terrain. the night time terrain mesh is pre lit in a room way below the map and moves into place shortly after level load. There is also 2 dynamic lights of different colour and intensity that sit above the fire that switch random between on and off states, to create a fire light flicker effect on the 1st and 3rd person player models if they are near the fire and don't have full bright turned on. When it's time for day, the night time mesh cap is removed to reveal the day lit terrain below and the fire flicker dynamic lights are turned off. 🪄🎩

[brave crown]

this map is... interesting. In DX11 I also noticed no bullet hole decals appear, which is very strange, have never seen that on any other maps. Also dynamic lights do work in other maps (like spooky desk), but they don't seem to be working in that one O.o

[thorny pumice]

I've actually not installed Alpine yet, how do I go about doing it, is it just dumped in the RF directory?

[brave crown]

for a "proper" alpine release (v1.1.0 on https://alpinefaction.com), you run the installer and follow the prompts

for the beta I sent above, just download the zip, extract the files to a new folder (does not have to be in the RF directory - in fact, it's cleaner if it's not), then launch the AlpineFactionLauncher

After you launch the launcher, go to settings and set the Game Executable to rf.exe in your RF directory

[thorny pumice]

First thing to note, is after first run it needs a reboot for config, click reboot, it loads again and then crashes

Manually relaunching works

[brave crown]

Crashes? O.o

[thorny pumice]

Yep. and when I close it crashes too, want Me to submit the log?

[brave crown]

can you send me the AlpineFaction-crash.zip from RF\logs? I've never heard of the game crashing during that reboot

[desert crown]

i havn't had that since dash 1.8 tbh

dash 1.8 would always do that to me

alpine fixed it

[desert crown]

lol

[brave crown]

You can submit the log but it's way easier for me to grab the dump if you just send me the AlpineFaction-crash.zip file from RedFaction\logs :p

[thorny pumice]

funny you say that:

It does that to me as well a lot @desert crown

[brave crown]

typically a crash on game exit is because of something not being properly cleared on shutdown... it's happened in the past with certain custom mods/maps, but I thought all of those issues had been fixed tbh

[desert crown]

thats not a crash report tho 😛

[brave crown]

@thorny pumice your crash is in the function player_fpgun_delete_meshes, when the game is zeroing the handles for first person weapon meshes - it's associated with some first person weapon mod you have, but I can't tell which one from this dump

[thorny pumice]

I'm not running any mods, or does it load/unload the mod folder that isn't in use?

[brave crown]

Hmm, it shouldn't, no. Let me see if I can tell anything from the vpps its loading, sec

[thorny pumice]

If you can help narrow it down, that'd be appreciated. Thanks

[brave crown]

thx for troubleshooting with me @thorny pumice , I wish it made more sense but at least you're no longer crashing :p

let me know what you think when you give it a try. The KOTH server is up if you want to join, also be sure to check out the advanced options menu

[thorny pumice]

Can't filter server list to KotH

Just an FYI

[brave crown]

You know - I never actually thought to check that lol. I don't think I've used that gametype filter option since 2002 😛

But good point, thx for noting it

I am surprised it uses a different set of options than the very similar-looking switcher in the listen server create panel though

[gaunt lotus]

lol we just talked about this the other day

but yeah the damn filters

nice catch

[brave crown]

yeah i know, and I still forgot to check it

lol

[thorny pumice]

The audio that plays when capturing if you walk in and out of the region clips a bit. Anyway to fade it?

[brave crown]

Not that I am aware of, but it would be good if there was. Granted, it's way more noticable in a server by yourself than it would be when you're being shot at 😛 but still

actually you know, the AR/SMG use looping sounds and don't clip like that

so the game must have a way to do that 🤔

[gaunt lotus]

is this because we had to boost the volume?

[brave crown]

that definitely makes it more audible but I doubt it would have caused it

[gaunt lotus]

when I was testing, I may have fucked up as I usually have low-ish in-game volume

but it was basically silent before

so I dunno

[thorny pumice]

Also managed to capture a point from 97% to complete despite stepping out, assuming lag. But the counter stopped at 97%

[brave crown]

it would be latency, yeah

[thorny pumice]

I turned my volume up a fair chunk to hear the SFX 😄

[brave crown]

it's difficult to ensure those counters are 100% synced all the time, I went with a compromise between bandwidth and accuracy. It syncs the state from the server to the client whenever the point owner changes or a player steps on/steps off

otherwise it relies on prediction clientside between known percentile

[gaunt lotus]

if you have high-ish ping you probably can step off the point on your client before the server knows that you've stepped off, and it will continue to count

[thorny pumice]

It's close enough that it won't matter just hunting for anything you may want to catch 🙂

[gaunt lotus]

there's no way around that with RF's netcode, i think

[brave crown]

yeah thats it

Beat's ping is probably 120ish?

[thorny pumice]

100 - 140ish

[gaunt lotus]

yeah

it's the same concept as peeker's advantage :>

[brave crown]

the "should I tick up" calculation is done on the server, based on the server's location for the player

Also the same reason why when you run over an item or a flag with a higher ping you dont get it immediately :p

[thorny pumice]

Yep, just thought worth mentioning just in case.

[brave crown]

oh yeah absolutely, please do 😄

[thorny pumice]

Seems good so far, but hard to ascertain from running round 😄

[brave crown]

:p yeah

[thorny pumice]

More annoyed about my crashing tbh

[brave crown]

We had a few 2v2 koth games last night, went well IMO. Few minor things noted but nothing major

I was thinking of perhaps Saturday before or after GN trying to get some folks on for a larger test

[thorny pumice]

Sounds like a good plan. The more data the more robust.

[gaunt lotus]

i got a sense of some issues, but def need more playtesting

also it will be bonkers fun with like 5v5+

[desert crown]

@brave crown how about now

[brave crown]

?

[desert crown]

come at me bro

[brave crown]

i cant play rn

[desert crown]

bleughhh

[brave crown]

maybe beat can? 😛 @thorny pumice

[desert crown]

so @green cobalt made a good point

the spawn delay with any less than 3v3 feels extremely punishing

[thorny pumice]

I do agree, it feels excessive when on lower player counts, TBH considering RF's TTK, it feels punishing no matter what

I die, alot, so it'd penalise some players and it gets frustrating

[gaunt lotus]

spawn delay seemed like a good idea, but from playing last night it did feel like it gave the team with the point a lot of room to push forward and position for easy kills before the attacking team respawns

not clear if respawning instantly solves that or if it's a mapping thing

[desert crown]

no ping

[brave crown]

IMO using spawn delay as a base mechanic is a necessity - all modes in the game should - because there is a spawn delay in the stock game, it is just variable based on the death animation you get (which is somewhat RNG dependent)

so, disabling spawn delay is not something I'd want to entertain. Lessening it to closer match the standard experience from the base game, I could see. I do agree that in playing last night, it didn't feel as good as I expected it to

@green cobalt just DMed me with a concept to base the delay time on the playercount and/or map size, which I could see being interesting as a concept

[brave crown]

im confused what this is showing 😛

[desert crown]

no ping

[brave crown]

location pings are disabled in the server, thats why you can't ping (and why the chat message tells you that?)

[desert crown]

thats why im telling u

enable uit

it has CTF ping set up

so why not the middle button ping

[brave crown]

huh?

location pinging as a feature is not enabled in the server

it's not a gamemode thing, not a bug, it's just the switch is turned off :p

I can turn it on for sure

sec

@desert crown should be on now

[brave crown]

oh maybe I didn't replicate that on hot load

rejoin the server

[desert crown]

[brave crown]

ok i need to replicate that to clients

added to the list

ty

[thorny pumice]

I'll try to make some progress on my map this weekend to enlarge the testing pool of you want.

[brave crown]

Sure man! 😄

I doubt from a mapping perspective if anything is going to actually change from now to full 1.2 release - possible but unlikely

few mechanical things to tidy up, handful of bugs to fix, but shouldn't be anything editor-focused

[desert crown]

Loadouts don't work IMO - spawning with AR decentivices looking for literally anything else - why have HMG or PR when i already have the best weapon in the game

please start with smg instead 👍

and plz force skin

for the same bs reasons as ctf

[brave crown]

spawning with AR decentivices looking for literally anything else
I fundamentally disagree with this - you still need to search for armour (which is typically more important when taking the point), and both HMG and PR have different purposes - they're sidegrades, you shouldn't be looking for them unless you're dealing with a situation where they're better

That said, I'm not necessarily against changing it to spawn with SMG for the record - tbh it might turn out better to have to go and find weapon upgrades in the long run. The thinking here on my part at least was that players focusing on the objective rather than "sidequests" to go find weapons would lead to more solid gameplay. Could be wrong though of course - testing it all out and seeing how it works in practice instead of in theory is the point of this beta :p

(Also not to be pedantic but the loadouts include the C4 too, it's not just AR 😛 )

[desert crown]

im stuck

[brave crown]

LOL

[brave crown]

thats for match servers, I don't want to go turning it on in testing servers

[desert crown]

i am literally being headglitched by elite but ok

[brave crown]

leaving variables open like that in a test server is valuable

[brave crown]

yeah this is a map problem lol probably was there in the CTF version too just no one ever had a reason to go in that spot in CTF lol

you only ever run past it

i will fix that

[gaunt lotus]

no, the issue with spawning with an SMG wasn't sidequesting but that it would give the holder of the point more room to push forward than they'd have otherwise

[desert crown]

spawning with ar gives no reason to weapon hunt

[gaunt lotus]

if you spawn with an AR, you can reasonably handle most situations, but that isn't true of the SMG

[desert crown]

theres no incentive

[gaunt lotus]

that is not true

[desert crown]

just run to mid and die

tgg

thats all anyone is doing

xd

[gaunt lotus]

this is a skill issue

[brave crown]

it is fundamentally untrue that there is no incentive, but there is less incentive, in that it is not required to do it before you can actually take a fight :p

[gaunt lotus]

people were trying to take the point without winning gunfights first last night as well

you can't expect to take the point without having wiped the enemy team or pushed them into bad positions

[brave crown]

sry, i had to dip, but great getting so much quality testing in

thx everyone for that

and I have to say, at least speaking for myself, that gameplay was really fun

the battles around the point were really nice (even playing without sound lol)

I also appreciated the reduced respawn delay

[gaunt lotus]

lijang feels decent, the others not so much

[desert crown]

opposite

[gaunt lotus]

there's not enough runtime on the other maps between the spawns and the points imo

they don't have as good of a flow

[desert crown]

there to much run time on that map between the spawns and the points you run die back to the bac kof the fbuilkding

[gaunt lotus]

there's probably some middle ground

lijang is probably as big as one should ever be

the others are very small right now in comparison

you take the point and the other team already has time to rush in because they have no spawn delay

it will create a very weird back/forth similar to arenamod because there's no sustain and no time to get off the point and position better

but that's just the vibe from a few games

[brave crown]

I also thought the opposite. I think LJ's layout works really well, but I would have liked twice as many players for the map size. I really enjoyed both savagelands and exile and I thought the runtime between spawns and the point felt very good - maybe 20-25% more runtime would have felt a little better, but I thought it felt good as-is for the player count

I do think that both of those maps would break down quickly with like 16 players, though

Also just to offer some feedback on the spawn delay - I think SG's point is a good one in that what feels good really depends on the size of the map. IMO the 2.5s spawn delay felt a little better in savagelands and exile than 1.5s did, but reducing the delay to 1.5s made a huge difference in how much I enjoyed LJ. I don't know the solution on that, just mentioning my experience

[gaunt lotus]

yeah the delay change def contributes a lot

i don't have a settled opinion on map size here yet

[brave crown]

oh for the record, when I said i thought the opposite, this is what I was referring to

lijang feels decent, the others not so much

I thought the others felt somewhere between decent and good (leaning towards good) and lijang felt far too large for the player count

[gaunt lotus]

LJ basically has 3 lanes

it felt fine at 3v3 for me

but unlike OW the TTK is giga low, so you can take some really aggressive positions and the heuristics are very weird compared to what i'm used to

[brave crown]

Tbh though what I noticed with LJ may actually be more that the specific areas and engagement ranges feel too long, rather than the actual runtime/floorspace being too much. Idk for sure, need to play more

[brave crown]

right ya, and you also can't cover ground near as quickly

[gaunt lotus]

i think part of the issue with exile for me, also, is that while the textures look nice i honestly hate them

could just picmip them to shit though in fairness

[brave crown]

imagine having such poor taste for visuals smh

lol but yeah picmip deals with that quite nicely

[brave crown]

https://github.com/GooberRF/alpinefaction/commit/fff122e0939346debdd7187ecdc766f663e9aa3c
Pushed the fix to the crash Beat was experiencing earlier

[crude oyster]

Was it day or night you were testing bullet decals? I wouldn't expect decals on anything at night because everything is a mesh at night. Day should have decals on the terrain at least. A lot of the other details though are either meshes or detail brushes so wouldn't have decals.

As for the dynamic light, dynamic lights dont work on keyframes or meshes in dx9 and this is both, spooky desk was neither, so wouldn't expect it to work on the terrain in dx11 unless dx 11 was changed to allow dynamic lights on meshes and keyframes? Should be working on the player model though. The weirder one is that the normal non dynamic light also isn't affecting the mesh. That is the main source of light for the area in dx9. 🤔

[brave crown]

It was night - I didn't realize the terrain was a mesh 😮 (though bullet decals also weren't showing on the hexagonal tubes that in the original version had teleporters and I think those are brushes?)

If the terrain is a mesh though yeah that's definitely why. DX11 doesn't currently support vertex lighting for meshes, just flat ambient lighting

[brave crown]

making progress on static lighting illuminating meshes

[brave crown]

FYI for anyone interested in testing, I just added 2 Damage Control maps to the test rotation on the test server

[green cobalt]

Is there a command to shrink this? I could not sustain control because this was in the way of opponent on the other side

[desert crown]

wait are you saying you couldn't shoot through the image?

THATS WHAT U MEANT?

[green cobalt]

no im saying you did a great job of hiding behind it and I was already low health

[brave crown]

There is no command to shrink it, though there is a command to make it not show through walls

Perhaps there should be a command to either scale or toggle it. Originally I didn't have a HUD widget for it so it was crucial for knowing capture progress but less so now

Also my bad but that map should have positioned the icon higher so it wasn't an issue regardless

[desert crown]

im confused

[brave crown]

He couldn't see you well enough to aim at you

[desert crown]

Oh

[brave crown]

Because the icon was blocking vision

[green cobalt]

correct

[brave crown]

Well obscuring

[desert crown]

i gotta be honest idk where u even were

from where your SS is taken from?

if i was in the circle im below that no?

[green cobalt]

if you want to go to server I can show you

[desert crown]

2m

[brave crown]

Top of the staircase to the platform

[green cobalt]

but goober sounds like he has a fix and its map based with positioning it higher

[brave crown]

But yeah this is mostly a mapping issue

The mapper does position it, that's already the case. I just did it poorly in that map

[green cobalt]

the screen doesnt really do it justice because its transparent, but it becomes a color when a team is controlling it

[desert crown]

ok

now i understand

@brave crown

we think here is a better spot 🙂

ye i get it now

[boreal ether]

@brave crown just got a crash on beta alpine gun game, map just loaded (pib warzone) pressed escape and crashed at menu.

[brave crown]

did you try to quit the map?

[boreal ether]

im not sure 🙁

i was going to quit yes, but dont if i clicked the quit button

[brave crown]

from the crash log it looks like you did, i just wanted to make sure i wasnt misreading something :p

[boreal ether]

yeh its still doing it, i press quit in menu and it crashes

[brave crown]

Oh? 😮 it's consistent?

only on that map?

[boreal ether]

yesh

just tried it on coffee break

[brave crown]

hm, it's not doing it for me 😮

[boreal ether]

not doing it now

[brave crown]

hmm

[boreal ether]

wonder if a real person has to be in ?

there a video

[brave crown]

thanks

[boreal ether]

oh seems to do it with normal alpine too

hmm whats going on 🙁

[brave crown]

I'm strongly suspecting its associated with some asset you have loaded based on where its crashing (and that no one else has had this issue), but I have no idea yet what to look for. Am digging

can you try using this dll on the 1.2 beta

this is the one that has the fix for the issue Beatonator was having

It's not the exact same issue as here but there's a chance the solution will also fix it

pre-GN koth testing anyone?

also @desert crown @green cobalt I just raised the icon in that map

[desert crown]

mind if i grab the dll first just incase

GN needs its recorder

[brave crown]

sure grab the one above

[desert crown]

[brave crown]

it just fixes the crash beat found

thats it

[desert crown]

yeah i know

but if its beat and bateman

safe than sorry

tell me when people are there

[brave crown]

i am lol

[desert crown]

bathroom break first then ill come

@high moss

[desert crown]

@high moss ^

heres the file if u want to test

@zinc quiver KOTH?

[crude oyster]

Those are also capped by a mesh at night. 😛 Don't think there's any exposed brushes anywhere at night.

Ah I see. Guess it's not ready for mainstream til that part is done. Looking forward to it! 😁

[brave crown]

#1376930844597551146 message

@nimble sierra @burnt parcel @shut vector

#1376930844597551146 message

@earnest iron

download this and read the message - extract it to its own new folder, launch it, then join the KOTH server

@silk roost

[desert crown]

@eager ember ^

[nimble sierra]

Loved KOTH, much fun

[brave crown]

Glad to hear it! I'm also super impressed with how great it feels tbh

[eager ember]

Seconded, it is very fun in spite of my crippling skill issues

[fast crescent]

I think KOTH and the variations played well 3v3 4v4. I think they definitely have the potential to be more fun than CTF or DM gamenights - looking forward to trying it with more people!

I like how u spawned with pistol in one version, and spawned with AR in another

kept it interesting

[desert crown]

I still think Exile > SL > IJ in terms of fun factor and pacing for me with KOTH

@fast crescent the ones that didn't have AR as default were not KOTH, that was DC, the ones with multiple points

[fast crescent]

yeah, thats what i meant by variation

[desert crown]

[fast crescent]

is DC technically a variation of KOTH, or was i incorrect? 😁

[desert crown]

you are correct 😛

[fast crescent]

ah ok

[gaunt lotus]

incorrect, technically it's a different mode

[fast crescent]

i only really ever played KOTH seriously in TF2

[desert crown]

technically its the same logic, more points

its a different mode

same shit going into it 😛

[gaunt lotus]

it's not the same logic because there's more than 1 point

[desert crown]

THATS NOT HOW I MEANT IT

same logic - capture/defend

[gaunt lotus]

KOTH = 1 point
DC = multiple point

so they are technically not a variation of each other

[fast crescent]

so tonight we just played 2 modes? is there a 3rd one i briefly read about as well?

[gaunt lotus]

yea the third will be revolt

[desert crown]

yes

[gaunt lotus]

that's not fully cooked yet

[fast crescent]

oh cool

[desert crown]

Its what RF mappers have tried to make in the past hopefully with better flow and logic

Assault

[fast crescent]

yeah i enjoyed both KOTH and DC

ah ok

got it

[desert crown]

It will be called Revolt ye

[gaunt lotus]

for DC with multiple points, goober is going to look into making the capture sounds and stuff directional

the only issue i had with that mode was that when a point was being captured, u couldnt really tell which point without referencing the hud

[fast crescent]

yeah

[gaunt lotus]

and if 2 or more were being capped at the same time, good luck

[fast crescent]

yeah i noticed i kept looking down at HUD more than i would have liked

minor issue for me since the mode was new to me

but thats a good idea

[desert crown]

how do u feel about the hud Ed

compared to CTF

[gaunt lotus]

KOTH UX works really well, DC needs the directional audio badly tho IMO

[desert crown]

with all the stuff in bottom left

I think it does a pretty good job

[fast crescent]

i thought it was pretty good

really no complaints except the spawn wait is slightly annoying to me - but its not a big deal if it is essential to the gamemode based on size of maps or whatever else

[gaunt lotus]

i think the spawn wait we played with today was basically the "normal" spawn delay

[fast crescent]

id rather have a slight spawn delay than a further walk to combat if that makes sense

[gaunt lotus]

in the base game your spawn delay is determined by the length of the random death animation your character gets

[desert crown]

@fast crescent are you (or do u think folks like medeo sid etc) are more likely to play variety from CTF now and again with these types of modes

I know you said typically the match folks don't care much for normal TDM

[fast crescent]

i think they definitely would for gamenight - not sure about playing it instead of CTF matches etc

[desert crown]

Really?

I think this offers some much needed variety against CTF

this is why im hoping for a variety of size appropriate maps

you can your IJ i guess for larger, 4v4+

but for something like 2v2/3v3 i think Exile works pretty well

[fast crescent]

i could play WL 24/7 in 2v2 3v3 4v4 5v5, so when we play other maps like ankh etc., thats already more variety than i need 😉

[desert crown]

Yeah but WL in any of these modes would be dog water

so

open mind 😄

[fast crescent]

i thought 2v2 3v3 exile wasnt as fun as CTF

but it was fun

[gaunt lotus]

we really need a map that's actually designed for the mode from the ground up rather than CTF ports, but all in due time

[fast crescent]

i cant stand exile for CTF matches, but thought the way goober set it up for KOTH was solid

[desert crown]

I think Exile provides a solid POC compared to the other 2

Its got a perfectly central location and the attack/defend options are pretty decent

except for the fucking stair head glitch

god get that out

but still

[gaunt lotus]

exile has a problem where becuase the point is so big and so central and all the routes flow directly to it, there are a lot of weird / stupid spots for the defending team to sit with shotguns and/or flank in stupid ways

neither of these maps are really flowing properly for the game mode

theyre still fun, but that is due to how good the game mode itself is, not how well the maps fit it

[desert crown]

Yes but of the 3

id like KOTH and Exile to remain when the mode goes out

Its my personal favourite 🙂

(as in a map release with Exile for KOTH)

[brave crown]

re: comp - I think KOTH has the right bones to be a much more fun and dynamic competitive mode in RF than CTF, but it's going to need to bake for a while first and have more than a few maps designed from the ground up for it rather than existing maps hamfisted into being KOTH maps. Pub/GN play is much more resilient to the fact that we (ie. the community) really don't have a lot of these foundational things figured out yet lol

(of course I do love CTF also, don't mean to denigrate it at all)

[nimble sierra]

How do you guys think payload would work? Think it's doable?

[gaunt lotus]

payload would work, payload works in everything

[brave crown]

I enjoy the gameplay loop in Exile KOTH a lot, though the maps certainly has some areas where its weak

also re: spawn delay - IMO every game (especially every competitive game) should have spawn delay configured, simply because it's consistent for all players and all deaths, rather than being somewhat RNG decided based on the length of the death anim you happen to get. Open question whether there should be a longer delay than 1.0 - 1.5s though. Initially I was strongly in the camp of thinking a longer spawn delay would be well suited to KOTH, but having played a bit of it im not as certain as I was. For CTF I'd not suggest a spawn delay longer than the typical delay, though still using Alpine's spawn delay feature so its consistent and you actually know when you can spawn rather than having to guess, deal with enforced timer delays, death anim lengths, etc.

Payload would totally work and is totally doable. The hardest part tbh would be figuring out a good way to allow mappers to configure the track lol

[desert crown]

I assume we can't have a dynamic spawn delay for amount of players

[brave crown]

That isn't coded currently but it could be. No client piece needed either, entirely server side

[desert crown]

i think that'd be cool

it was brought up yesterday

i cant remember if it was ghost or oner or whoever

[nimble sierra]

yeah that's gonna take a lot of thought lol

[desert crown]

but they said depending on players low > high spawn delay

[desert crown]

I think at this point with The think tank at the helm, its safe to say technically anything is possible, its just the resources and planning/logistics that come out with a mode

[brave crown]

Virtually anything is possible, it's just about putting in the proper planning and analysis to ensure that what's made works as well as it possibly can, and we don't totally overload the game proportional to player count

adding 30 new gamemodes at this point (like Sauerbraten has) is totally doable. It would be a really, really bad idea

[fast crescent]

1 more for 5v5 in match server btw

[glacial storm]

Btw, how much feature complete is the DX11 in the beta Alpine version

[brave crown]

It's close

[glacial storm]

I gave it a shot and for the first time, I managed full 60 fps on the Kava aesir section. DX9 would drop to 40 fps. Yes my PC is potato

On the flipside though, DX11 tended to drop my frames when I would use scope of my sniper rifle

[gaunt lotus]

hm, that's interesting

i wonder why it would do that, maybe the scopes have some weird rendering shit

actually it might be the rendering of the graphic on-screen

since it would need to do that every frame

[desert crown]

@gaunt lotus tbf if you are scoping and zooming in it probably isn't great on that either

instead of just clicking it once

[glacial storm]

Actually, zooming in slowed the frames. More zoom reduced fps more

[gaunt lotus]

for my curiousity, do you get lower frames in the same way if you just set your fov really low?

in most games lower fov typically = better frames

[glacial storm]

I will have to check. I am not at my PC rn

[gaunt lotus]

yeye

[glacial storm]

Will report later today

[gaunt lotus]

it would be interesting because if your frames aren't butchered by just low fov, then it's something specific to the extra "stuff" the scope does there

[desert crown]

@prisma monolith

#1376930844597551146 message

heres the DL

[brave crown]

@obsidian warren ^

joining koth server now for koth testing if anyone's interested

[desert crown]

Yeah i just don't enjoy that map

Spawn - run forward, get to action, die, back to the back of the map, run back, die, spawn at the back of the map

the downtime is just way to long for me

Im fine with Exile/SL even if im dying alot more, atleast im nearer to the action

the layout is a bit unintuitive for me personally aswell - i know its form a different game, i get it, i just amn't a fan of it

[brave crown]

I enjoy LJ in 4v4 (or 5v4 lol) with minimal spawn delay far more than I enjoy Exile or SL under the same conditions. But I enjoy Exile or SL with a spawn delay and less players far more than I enjoy LJ under the same conditions

[nimble sierra]

I feel like LJ could benifit with a railgun

[brave crown]

I think SG hit the nail on the head when he said that spawn delay should be based on map size (though it's not really practical to do so, its useful to know it)

[nimble sierra]

maybe there was one and i didn't see it..

[desert crown]

I cannot under any circumstances with the current item layout see myself enjoying IJ under any scenario tbh

[brave crown]

some people just dont like some maps too lol

you maybe never will

[desert crown]

Thats why i said it the way i did

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[gaunt lotus]

exile/sl both have the same problem right now - without a spawn delay, the strategy is to just flood the point as fast as you can off spawn because the time to cap the point is too low

[desert crown]

I agree the timer needs to be longer

[gaunt lotus]

there's no time to actually setup or defend the point, and even if you clear everyone off of it

you can't re-take the point before you get flooded again

[desert crown]

Ok but in the other scenario i just never get back to it

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[gaunt lotus]

but that's because the defending team has the time to setup and defend the point properly

you have to then actually win fights against those defenders

rather than running onto the point and then dying over and over

[desert crown]

I don't think thats it at all even when there was my side Sids running around and im at the back of the map perma for 30s 😂

[brave crown]

You should never get back to the point without having to work for it, for the record 😛 getting back to the point shouldn't be free if a team is defending :p

[desert crown]

I just think it flows better when im not as far back

Simple as that

Though i will say DC is growing on me

[glacial storm]

Got to try it now. The fov doesn't lower fps and actually zooming in and out doesn't change fps much either. It's mostly the scope that's butchering fps.

To give reference, I am getting 240 fps without the scope in a certain area and turning it on reduced fps to 80-90 fps in same area

@brave crown

This is Alpine 1.1 and my GPU is Intel UHD 620

[brave crown]

That's very surprising 😮 you're talking about the Sniper scope?

[glacial storm]

Yes

It has no performance impact in DX9, but kills tons of performance in DX11

[glacial storm]

@brave crown another thing. I didn't get the achievement for beating the game. I got the kill Masako, but didn't Moderate Success (beating campaign on medium)

[brave crown]

did you load a level manually throughout the run perhaps? that achievement tracks when you start and end the game, not just ending it

[glacial storm]

Nope.

Just used saves and quicksaves

Played the whole campaign

[brave crown]

Oh, it wasn't in the same session though was it?

[glacial storm]

I don't understand

[brave crown]

Like, you had exited the game during the playthrough and relaunched?

[glacial storm]

Oh yeah I did that. Played half of campaign yesterday and then resumed today.

[glacial storm]

Is this done to prevent players from cheesing harder difficulty playthrough achievements. Like playing on easy, then doing the bomb on hard/impossible etc.

[brave crown]

Ah ok - I believe the way the achievement works currently is that you need to do the playthrough in a single session. It's not ideal, but until I redo the savegame format (which will not be in the 1.2 version but will come later), there's no good way to track that between sessions :\

[brave crown]

It's moreso that the stock game's savegame format has no way to track whether you started the game from the first level or loaded in merc base and only played the last chapter

[glacial storm]

Fair enough. Still slightly disappointed I didn't get it. Oh well, I will get it in next playthrough I guess. Still have some hidden achievements and also some grindy ones like the all glass panes

[glacial storm]

Speaking of, If I die and reload a game, does it still count as one session.

[brave crown]

that should be fine

https://jumoyang.com/Level-Design-King-of-the-Hill

I need to give this a deeper read later but at a glance seems like a good resource for conceptualizing koth gameflow

overwatch is a different game of course but the core design concepts would be somewhat similar

[brave crown]

Added a new version of Exile, and another new map to the KOTH test server

[desert crown]

whats updated 😄

[brave crown]

in exile? lots

[desert crown]

liiiiiiiiiiiiiiiike

[brave crown]

join and see yourself lol

i dont have a changelog

[desert crown]

this spawn is super unintuitive cuz i keep running at a wall

[brave crown]

you need to go up the jump pad

[desert crown]

i know

but i don't spawn facing the pad i spawn facing a locked door

[brave crown]

the map uses orange walls to signify "you can't go this way"

[desert crown]

im holding w 😛

[green cobalt]

tf2 harvest map?

or viaduct

[brave crown]

I could see Harvest being interesting

viaduct I'm less confident in, simply because I think in general in RF having the point in a powerful position to fight from isn't going to work out well

[green cobalt]

i c

[brave crown]

but of course as I say constantly it will take time and experimentation to work out the metagame really :p

I'm really happy with where Exile is right now though, have to say

@green cobalt have you seen it?

[nimble sierra]

So how do I setup control points if I want to make my own koth/dc map?

[brave crown]

so, first off just to be totally clear, I'm strongly recommending that you make a copy of your map before opening it in the editor for the Alpine beta, rather than saving your only copy using the beta. There's always a chance the beta has an issue that results in corruption and I'd hate for you to lose any serious amount of work

(To be clear, I would be very surprised to learn any such issues exist in the beta, just saying for the maximum amount of caution)

Apart from that, here's the basic steps to make a control point:

• Make a trigger. Can be a box or a sphere. The only properties that matter are the dimensions and the shape
• Make a Control_Point_Handler event (under the AF_Gameplay category)
• Link the Control_Point_Handler event to the trigger

That's the minimum you need to do to make a control point. If you want a cylindrical control point, tick the box in the properties for the Control_Point_Handler

Then save your map with the correct prefix - koth for KOTH and dc for DC. So, for example - kothcoolmapb1.rfl or dccoolmapb1.rfl

The Play (Multi) button in Alpine RED will launch maps in the correct gamemode based on prefix, so testing in a listen server is easy

Oh, the location of the Capture_Point_Handler event is the location of the progress/label sprite for the control point. I'd suggest positioning it directly above the center of the trigger, at a height that is unlikely to result in the sprite blocking importing sightlines for combat

here are the other options you can set on the Capture_Point_Handler

Ignore "Position" - that's for a gamemode that doesn't exist yet (and tbh I'll probably hide that field when v1.2 releases)

[nimble sierra]

pretty straightforward lol

thanks

[brave crown]

very lol

I wanted Alpine to do the heavy lifting 😛 make the process for mappers as dead simple as possible

[nimble sierra]

i'm thinking of making both a dc and koth of my new map to see which one plays better

[brave crown]

sweet!

oh last thing I forgot - if you want the metal "pad" that I use in the center of all of my control points in the test maps, that's a brush - you can group it out from one of the test maps

or you could design your own if you feel so inclined 🙂

[desert crown]

[desert crown]

bear in mind they require TDM spawns

or atleasyt

will play better with that in mind

[brave crown]

they do not require TDM spawns, though especially for KOTH it's probably a good idea

[nimble sierra]

oh yeah good point

[brave crown]

If you want to get more advanced, you can link the Capture_Point_Handler to respawn points. If you do, the game will only allow the team that owns the control point to respawn at those respawn points

though I wouldn't really recommend doing that in KOTH. It's nice in DC sometimes, though (to reduce the chances of people spawning very close to points they do not own)

[desert crown]

yeah with KOTH i recommend treating it like CTF and just having team spawns on opposing sides

[nimble sierra]

that could be useful for my map since it has a lot of height

[brave crown]

if a respawn point is 10ft away from a control point in DC, you probably don't want the enemy spawning there 😛

and if you want to get really advanced, the Owner_Gate, When_Captured, and Set_Control_Point_Owner events can be used to do some really cool stuff 😛 I'd strongly recommend sticking with the basics at first though before getting wild with any of that stuff lol

[nimble sierra]

i'm totally interested once we get to that point 😛

[brave crown]

(those events are probably going to be far more useful in designing scenarios for Revolt mode as opposed to KOTH/DC if I'm honest)

[nimble sierra]

is revolt similar to assault?

[brave crown]

same sort of idea - red attacks, blue defends

but it uses area control zones instead of arbitrary "advance" conditions

So like red might need to breach a warehouse and stay in the warehouse for a minute to take control of that section of the map, then red's spawns move forward to the warehouse and blue's spawns move back to the next zone, then red has to attack that next zone

So, When_Captured could be used, for example, to open a gate, or extend a bridge for easier access, after red captures a zone

[nimble sierra]

yeah that sounds complicated lol

[brave crown]

yeah, that mode is its own "kettle of fish" as it were lol

nick and I have been thoughtcrafting a map that should be pretty cool when it happens, but I'm focusing on that for after the release of Alpine 1.2

[nimble sierra]

you could do some pretty cool things with a payload map

[brave crown]

yeah, and I'm also not opposed to properly implementing payload down the road either

[nimble sierra]

i'm just imagining a minewarfare style map

[brave crown]

Added a new map to the test server

[desert crown]

alright i give up

[brave crown]

on what

[desert crown]

i cannot get into it

im not familiar with this map

i can't capture it

[brave crown]

what??

[desert crown]

wait

[brave crown]

you're on the team that owns the point

[desert crown]

omg im fucking stupid

yeah

fucking

yeah

sorry

my bad

[brave crown]

:p

[desert crown]

😩

[brave crown]

@desert crown you can use the -afs FILENAME switch to load a specific settings file

so, you'd make a shortcut to the Alpine launcher, append -afs spec_settings.ini to the target field

then clone your alpine_settings.ini file in your root RF directory and name it spec_settings.ini

i can vc for a couple of mins if you like

[desert crown]

sure

[desert crown]

ty btw 😄 ive set up all 3

Spectate
Speedrun
Normal (MP Playing)

im gonna allow myself to experiment with a lower sens on spectate again for freecam now that its all seperated

[gaunt lotus]

what is the new new?

[brave crown]

got a sec to hop in?

[thorny pumice]

Assault/Revolt can be tweaked to replicate Payload if desired.

[strong sluice]

I have. It has major rizz

[desert crown]

Well you aren't ghost

[brave crown]

ghostly mario

[desert crown]

Wut

[brave crown]

https://github.com/GooberRF/alpinefaction/issues/174
@crude oyster so... the game is capping min velocity for movers at 0.4m/s. And I have no idea why Volition would have done this lol

I did fix it, but it's not a fix I can deploy across the board because it will break a lot of existing maps. I can link it to a setting in level properties (like "Legacy Cyclic_Timers"), but I want to see first if there was a reason Volition did it this way. From what I'm seeing it just looks... arbitrary... but I can't see a thought process that would lead to them doing this arbitrarily lol

[gaunt lotus]

feels like something where they were like... we know this needs a lower bound of some kind, and we probably won't need anything to move slower than this, so that's the lower bound type thing

[brave crown]

yeah I guess, that's really all I can think of

but you'd think their low range would be like... 0.01? idk lol

[gaunt lotus]

yeah, dunno

[brave crown]

0.4 m/s isn't really that slow even. I could see in the stock game wanting gates or something to mover slower than that

[gaunt lotus]

do gates run faster with their knives out?

[brave crown]

until they run into a stuck door, yes

[brave crown]

yeah, doing this "fix" without a legacy switch would mess with a lot of maps. This is from dm-deathrun, just sitting at spawn

all of these movers are "supposed" to move slower than they actually do, based on the config in the mover properties

[gaunt lotus]

do they move that slowly in the editor but faster in-game?

[brave crown]

movers don't move in the editor

[gaunt lotus]

ahh ok

amusing

[crude oyster]

Very strange. Especially because the same limit doesn't seem to apply to roate in place movers.

After I posted the bug report I found an alternate methood to get the subtle bobing in water motion I was going for in this instance, by using rotate in place keyframe but moving the pivot point away from the object with a very small rotation degree, so it looks more like up and down then rotating, and I could make that as slow as I wanted.

Acceleration and deceleration also don't work if the speed is set to something that would be lower then the minimum velocity.

Glad it seems like an easy fix though, so I can do it the proper way down the road. There has been a few times now I've wanted a mover to go slower then RF would let me and just had to accept it or abandon my plan. 😝

[brave crown]

Acceleration and deceleration also don't work if the speed is set to something that would be lower then the minimum velocity.
Yeah, what I'm seeing with the min vel cap applies to all mover translations, so it would affect accel/decel as well as normal movement

[desert crown]

Regarding new DC map @brave crown

I think 3 would be better

i like the spots but i think one in the middle room would work

i see the one in the room but i just think the middle room would be a contestable point - i guess akin to Relic, but atm the lower one feels to protected and the upper one feels way less protected so

also i can't cap from above

but i can in exile on the boxes

i think one in here, take out the fusion

[brave crown]

The reason there wasn't one in the center room is because it's a connector between the other rooms - you need to go there and fight to control it anyway, there's no point necessary for that. Thought about putting one there but it felt just unnecessary tbh 😛

[brave crown]

That's intentional, mostly for intuitiveness - there's no outline visible up there and it's a distinctly different level so it would feel more than a little odd to cap up there, I think

[desert crown]

well where i was coming from, It feels bare, like the 2 points on opposite side of the maps feel like theoretically you should never cap the other side unless one team is just absolutely tragic, A middle contestion point (to me) feels like it would give you the room to pressure and room to breathe on either side whereas in the middle with the point you can push closer spawns

Just my own thoughts

[brave crown]

A middle contestion point (to me) feels like it would give you the room to pressure
I see where you're going with this and is is a good point, I'm just not sure it's... necessary? The reason you should always be pressuring the other point is because you want the points 😛 and you need to control the mid section to do that - adding an extra point there seems like at least in theory it would make the gameplay more snowball-y :\

[gaunt lotus]

in theory you wouldn't need to cap both if you are outfragging the enemy team as well, right?

i forget if kills add to team score

[brave crown]

if you could capture 1 point and then outfrag the opponent and keep them from capping the other one yeah

kills don't add to team score, they add to player score though (so does capturing points)

[gaunt lotus]

hrm, well that could result in some tie or very unsatisfying games in 2 point maps

but it's true that it incentivizes pushing to get that 2nd point for at least some amount of time

i do also think that a 3rd point in center would likely just go to whichever team holds the hmg point... and you could just get good/lucky spawns at the start of the game on that side of the map

but i dunno, I think if you go for the 3rd point you probably also just go for the 4th point that we talked about @brave crown in the rocket/smg connector

[brave crown]

Yeah I think so

[gaunt lotus]

it's not a very big map though, so i dunno

[brave crown]

I wonder if it would be better to put the point where the AR is above the fusion ramp

in that corner

if there were to be a third

at that point it's less linked to the hmg point, and is more aligned with the mid point between the 2 other points, at least based on gameplay flows

[brave crown]

@crude oyster do you have a map where the rotation accel issue is obvious

I think I fixed it, just wanted to confirm with a map where its known to be broken

[brave crown]

have these advanced options now, but I'd still like to test a known broken map if you have one. Also would you be interested in experimenting with this in a beta version to confirm the behaviour works correctly?

[crude oyster]

No I don't think I've ever used it because it just made the movers look broken or had no effect any time I've tried. The rocking boats in catan were the only other map I can recall at the moment wanting it, but just abandoned the accel and decel and put em to 0 when I couldn't get it to work right.

It's just the swinging bodies now in the graveyard remaster I'm working on that i really want it because the swings look pretty unnatural without it.

[crude oyster]

Yeah I could beta test on graveyard remaster. Everything is already set up and working, just no accel or decel at the moment.

[thorny pumice]

I've not played the map in question to test, but as a rule of thumb you NEED 3 points/odd number of points in all of the maps for DC. In most games there is a "home" point for each team and a contested point. Perfectly normal behaviour. The team pushing gets rewarded for their effort with the extra points for the middle one.

Query on the spawn rules @brave crown

I know you have a toggle for the defenders to only spawn at linked spawn points...

1. During setup, would you tick both blue and red team to spawn there, or are they overridden completely by the control point.
2. If I have unlinked spawn points they have default behaviour?

I envisage a potential scenario where you have some default spawn points, but when a Control Point is captured it could enable new spawn points for the defenders in the area... can it also enable attacker spawn points?

[brave crown]

1. Doesn't matter, they're overridden when the point owner changes (in KOTH/DC, not REV. In REV they stay as configured)
2. Yes

I envisage a potential scenario where you have some default spawn points, but when a Control Point is captured it could enable new spawn points for the defenders in the area
Yeah, that's exactly the model I had in mind when designing DC 🙂

EDIT: Actually, the server shows a warning when trying to spawn a player if there are no spawn points available for them (ie. because their team doesn't own any control points, and the mapper had no spawn points other than those linked from the control points). The server will still spawn that player at a random point, but it's not the "proper" way for it to work. The mode is designed for the mapper to have some "normal" spawn points that don't rely on the owner of control points

can it also enable attacker spawn points?
not in KOTH/DC, but yes in REV.

If you really wanted to do that in KOTH/DC, you could in theory use an event system with When_Captured, Owner_Gate, and Respawn_Point_State to DIY it though

[brave crown]

Awesome! I'll send you a beta to test. A few quick things though:

• The changes only apply when the corresponding Legacy switch is turned off in Level Properties. When opening an older map, it will default to on (to maintain existing behaviour), so you'll need to turn the switch(es) off to test
• Take a copy of the map to test this, and do not rely on that copy. This is still WIP and the way the data is stored in the rfl file may change. Normally I say it's extremely unlikely the changes I do will end up corrupting a map, in this case, it's more likely than not that the rfl file you test this with will be unplayable in the future, so please just make a copy to test with, do not use your "good" RFL file

[thorny pumice]

Oh, another thing... what's the height of the cap point?

[brave crown]

of the zone? whatever the height of the trigger was

[thorny pumice]

Need to consider intentional/unintentional behaviour by different levels in the same area.

Ah ok cool I forgot the trigger.

😄

[brave crown]

😄

Yeah, the trigger isn't literally itself used for the capture zone (which is why the trigger properties apart from shape and dimensions are ignored), but it does build the capture zone based on all dimensions of the trigger object

[wraith comet]

I'd just really like to take a second to applaud how hard you're working to maintain backwards compatibility while also innovating with new features and fixes.

Most wouldn't even bother with the kind of work this takes lol.

I haven't done any project nearly as complex as Alpine, and even I know it's no trivial job to maintain backwards compatibility like this.

[desert crown]

I know we have a bunch of spawn protection stuff in AF like force RNG and "cannot spawn at last point etc" but is there anyway to enumerate a spawn cap? I feel like this is a long shot question but to be clear, let me show you 3 images.

all these people save the Guard in the corner spawned on top of each other within the same 1-2 second

is there anything we can do to prevent this ?

i.e. "no more than 2 people can spawn at X spawn within 3 seconds" or something silly like that

this is a 4th angle - indicating no one else in the above SS could have been there, 5 people spawned on top of each other

also idk whats going on but the amount of silenced pistols in my recording O_O

[brave crown]

Those are not silenced pistols :p

On the spawn question - in theory some super complex logic could be implemented.. but it's never going to help what you're seeing in that map to any real effect. That maps issue is the placement and count of the spawn points

[desert crown]

I got it but i thought we always have 8+ ?

here have a silenced pistol for your trouble 😭

[brave crown]

Oh - I don't know why it's showing that in fp spectate for that guy lol thats... Interesting o.o

[brave crown]

Pretty sure that map does, but it's also a small map and we had 30 players

[desert crown]

I had it on several members not just him

I had it on Kerpal, "megumi" him, i think i had it on Axel at one point

[brave crown]

Also that maps spawn points were in very wide open places

Short of more/better spawn points, or a spawn delay, there's not much to do to help that map with 30 players :p

[desert crown]

i know but i figured id ask because its not fun for anyone - like, halloween havok for instance, everyone spawning in the corner XD

[brave crown]

Yeah I hear you, we just need to either avoid those maps, edit them, or add spawn points

I'm not a fan of overengineering solutions to problems when the only solution that would truly help the situation is clear (even if annoying) :p

[desert crown]

I get it

Id love to see edits to maps to compenstate higher numbers

but then also

this is only been a year of me spectating

ive no idea how long this has been a thing overall 😛

[brave crown]

Agreed, but maps like Halloween havoc are gonna be super tiny anyway

[desert crown]

oh always

😛

im losing my mind

its literally everyone 😭

[brave crown]

Yeah I'm curious why that is

[desert crown]

ive had to give up and use it in atleast one shot but eugh

[gaunt lotus]

hmm

i wonder if we can reproduce it

maybe it depends on what you do when/around spawn time

like m1 vs m2 spawning

@desert crown when they shoot under spec, does the silencer go away for that shot?

[desert crown]

nope

[gaunt lotus]

or do they fire a silenced weapon from your pov? does the sound change?

[desert crown]

sec

[gaunt lotus]

i wonder if this is also maybe a weird quirk of the spectate being clientside... the client must be for some reason thinking that the enemy pistol is silenced

[gaunt lotus]

ok so normal pistol sound but silenced pov

I would guess this is a problem with whatever determines the spectate fpgun then

[desert crown]

its weird like i remember we had it many many months ago now

but it hadn't really happened since then

till last night

maybe its people running AF 1.1 (stupid i know) but it wasn't silenced on bateman, who is running 1.2

(i think he was at that point anyway could be wrong)

but even Ed had a silenced pistol so

w/e ig

[brave crown]

@desert crown there's no chance that you had the silencer turned on in sp before you joined the server, during the same game launch....right?

[desert crown]

never opened SP on that launch

opened the game purely to go MP

[brave crown]

Kk

[brave crown]

@crude oyster first off, thx for testing the new mover functionality 🥳

On the travel time thing with decel... thnaks for noting that - it is both an issue in and of itself, and made me aware of another issue with the accuracy of the travel time... it's accurate with the version you have, as long as you don't use accel/decel at all, and it's because the game for some reason calculates the speed of the mover based on the total travel time without considering accel/decel lol. So, if you use accel/decel, it drifts by 50% of the total time of the accel/decel. I'm working on a more robust fix for thhis which incorporates accel/decel in the overall velocity calculation, so that the functionality will be as it should be - namely, the accel/decel time is included in the total travel time and the velocity reflects that

[brave crown]

@crude oyster I have a new build for you to test out and confirm everything works as it should. Will DM it to you

It fixes:

1. Decel for translation movers meaning they slow to 0.0 m/s and stop entirely. I'm now imposing a hard minimum velocity of 0.001 m/s... which is effectively 0, but won't stop it from finishing its route.
2. Travel time for translating movers was wrong with accel/decel set (as I described above). I'm now calculating the velocity correctly, based on the rule that the specified travel time should include the accel/decel times, plus any "full speed" time in between accel/decel.
3. Ping Pong Infinite now works properly for rotating movers (this was strictly a Volition bug - it always should have worked properly, but they had a logic error in the stock code)
4. Loop Once and Loop Infinite now work properly for rotating movers. Previously, Loop Once/Infinite with a rotation degrees < 360 just continued looping for 360 degrees anyway. Now it works as expected, and like translation keyframes do - ie. rotation degrees 90 and Loop = rotate 90 degrees, then snap back to the start

(same as before, please do not use this on a "good" rfl file, just a test one to avoid any potential corruption/data loss... though I'm not expecting any, but just to be cautious)

All of these fixes only apply when the corresponding legacy switch is turned off, of course, same as before. I did simplify the labels in level properties now though, since it's not just velocity and accel behaviour being fixed now.

[zinc quiver]

@brave crown to what path does the join.alpinefaction look at? it doesnt seem to work for me anymore: https://join.alpinefaction.com/74.91.120.79/27017

[brave crown]

That uses the rf:// protocol handler, which is installed when Alpine is installed. Did you by any chance reinstall Windows?

In any event, if you re-install Alpine using the installer at https://alpinefaction.com it should fix it

[zinc quiver]

thank you, reinstalling fixed it

[limpid comet]

@brave crown are UI modifications/additions completely done using the built-in RF functions? you don't use a separate overlay for anything?

[brave crown]

correct

[limpid comet]

thanks, RF:G has some similar functions, though I'm not sure the UI system is as simple as RF1 considering most of it is parsed from vint_doc files. either way, it'll be fun to experiment with it.

[brave crown]

Was beneficial to sleep on this lol

I have a bit of an issue with my logic. It shouldn't be that the travel time is the single source of truth and the accel/decel fall within it, it should be that the travel time is the travel time, but if the accel/decel takes longer than the configured travel time, the travel time is extended to fit the the accel/decel. That makes the math far earlier and predictable for mappers

if the accel+decel fit within the travel time (which the mapper really should do lol), it's the same thing. Travel time = accel + decel, with full speed for the delta between travel time and sum of accel+decel

[brave crown]

here we go. It's impossible to properly handle having a mover with total travel time 10 seconds, but accel and decel both 8 seconds... the accel and decel need to fit in the travel time. So now, if this "fix" switch is turned on (default on for new maps, default off on existing maps for compatibility), when the map is loaded, the travel times will automatically be adjusted so they are at least as long as the accel+decel, so they function as the mapper would have expected

[brave crown]

Ok finally fixed the issue where if a mover decelerates to 0 m/s it freezes and can't move again lol. Mover functionality should be squared away now 🥳 (awaiting IAC's testing)

[crude oyster]

Thinking that last fix could probably just be under the same check box as legacy behaviour for translating movers. Actually all the new mover behaviour could probably go under 1 check box for legacy mover behaviour, To simplify it. Can't see any reason why a mapper making a new map would want to apply any of the old limits. 😛

[brave crown]

Hm. Maybe a good point lol

My usual bias is towards granularity because it puts more control in the hands of the mapper.... But it probably doesn't serve an actual purpose here. Could just consolidate it all into a switch labeled "new movers" lol

[brave crown]

done

[crude oyster]

Yeah especially when all the old behaviour could still be created with the new movers by just not putting in speeds below 0.4m/s, not using accel and decel on rotating movers, using loop to replicate what ping pong used to do on rotating movers and putting 360 degrees to replicate what loop used to do on rotating movers. 😛 No functionality was lost, just less derpy and more accurate to use now.

[desert crown]

@thorny pumice you don't see the timer? im chadding it out on run servers now

[desert crown]

@brave crown figured id check just incase u had fixed it yet xD

[brave crown]

the rfsb you're using is identifying itself as a 1.2 client - there's no way for me to fix that :p

what rfsb is it? the latest version (5.1.4 I think?) should work perfectly

[desert crown]

neither the non hacked version and the "don't show as player" one seem to be up to date 🙁

[brave crown]

https://www.factionfiles.com/ff.php?action=file&id=4002

afaik this should work

[desert crown]

well thats fun

same install location but only fixed one of them

XD

(i know why dw, jsut fun)

[brave crown]

#1376930844597551146 message

to expand on this - I can't allow joins from what appears to be a RF 1.2 client, because they lack the logic for the new gamemodes. They have to be denied

[brave crown]

I have 0 desire to "fix" the one that was intentionally designed to lie to servers :p

that program should not exist

[desert crown]

i disagree

I like that i can sit in a server and not take up a vote

i think its problematic that i can take up a vote as a browser

[brave crown]

huh?

i think its problematic that i can take up a vote as a browser
Of course it is - that's what I'm saying 😛

the one that intentionally lies to servers does take up a vote

[desert crown]

the hacked one is the one that doesn't.. do that..

[brave crown]

"normal" browsers do not

[desert crown]

no..

the reason i have the hacked one is so i do not take up the vote

thats the entire purpose

[brave crown]

you have that logic reversed

I guarantee, 100%

[desert crown]

wait..

what..

[brave crown]

Alpine detects browsers in the same way to reject joins in KOTH mode as it does to exclude them from voting

[desert crown]

WTF

SINCE WHEN

[brave crown]

you 100%, guaranteed, beyond a shadow of doubt, have this logic reversed

[desert crown]

HOW

i swear to fucking god when i got that one a year ago it was the other way around

idk what fucking dejavu time loop jump this is

[brave crown]

since the "hacked one" has existed - it serves literally no purpose other than to report false information to servers. It should not exist, it is literally malicious software lol

[desert crown]

but that was not the case a year ago

[brave crown]

There's a reason it is not on FactionFiles for download 😛

:p when you use RFSB 5.1.4 you can join fine, just with the RFSB that reports itself as an RF 1.2 client you are denied

[desert crown]

i can't remember who sent me that

but i swear to god im not making this up

my reasons for having both were true once..

[gaunt lotus]

if that hacked client reports itself as a 1.2 client, then what you are saying would literally never be true

[desert crown]

you can not believe me its fine

but i remember my purpose for having both a year ago