Night Lord

[plucky sundial]

He's stronger

So we give it to him

[lament mirage]

So that you are not wasting your Barrage lines standing from distance

[plucky sundial]

Because he's stronger

Wasting his lines makes us worse off

[lament mirage]

Lines > mdc

Barrage burst is alot stronger than whatever NW currently has

[plucky sundial]

I'm not standing at a distance
It's the seconds wasted from walking to dodge the sickle

But my barrage lines are all hitting

I have enough hp to tank the sickles

I just cant completely be still

And I get 2 uses of dark sight for p1

[lament mirage]

Cannot be

You compare the 2 videos

Of your guildie

The 1st video the NL did far worse

[plucky sundial]

I don't stand at a distance
I dash in to dodge the sickle

I know it helps

But Rubedo and Tazo are diff story

Evan can stay a distance

Rubedo can tank through himself

My team has an NW that benefits from echo

Same as me

But he is stronger

So he takes echo

Diff comp = diff optimization

[lament mirage]

But from the video, the NL was literally standing here

Completely overlapping Lucid. His damage was onpar for a good 45 to 50 secs inside phase 1

Vs you compare Rubedo’s 1st lucid video where the NL damage is no where near

You and your team probably might benefit more with you getting Sancro

[plucky sundial]

Maybe...
But from our testing our NW had a bigger increase in dmg

My dps without sancro also isn't particularly bad in p1
I actually do better in p1 than p2 because of full Barrage uptime and no minigame

And skill rotation-wise, I'm my team's top dps on Damien p1
So I don't think that's an issue
I keep the same distance I do in Damien as in Lucid, which is why I'm pretty sure most of my barrage lines are hitting

I also did a comparison of lines/hit in arkmag + lotus vs damien + lucid
It's less than 1 line per cast difference

So yeah
It would help me, but for us, giving it to our NW ended up being better for the team

So we give it to him instead

[plucky sundial]

Actually, we went on a bit of a tangent

But this was my point:
As you can see, when Escanor is given time to dps, and there are no breaks, the gap between him and the rest is quite big

But these factors come into play:

1. NL's barrage uptime is only 50%
2. NL has weak quick-burst right now

This means we can output a lot less against Damien and Lucid which has a lot of dps downtime
While other classes can output a lot of lines during dps windows, we are forced to waste our Barrage

Hence, the dps gap closes a lot in the video you linked during p2, and p2 is a lot longer than p1
So we do quite well against bosses like Arkmag (though far from the best, still)
And we do decently against Lotus, still

But there's a sharp dropoff in Damien and Lucid for us

[tidal halo]

Just ask for all them luminous, Evans skills to be capped at 280% and 4 hit count.
Then we will acknowledge their downvotes (:

[tidal halo]

May the odds be ever in our favour

[plucky sundial]

#buffNL

[potent heath]

Ive ran a few boss with other units having less MDC but due to their class nature (burst units) even having 10m+ MDC extra dont mean shiets when it comes to real world runs. On paper we may look strong but in actual fact...we are quite..............meeeeeehhhhh....at best bottom feeders

[eternal panther]

Quad back to 400%

[normal vector]

need more lines

[normal vector]

No NL buffs

[wintry sigil]

[graceful salmon]

you gotta add constructive details on what skills, changes etc

[wintry sigil]

[plucky sundial]

That's disappointing.
A DA who's approximately 5m mdc less than me outdps me in Lucid.
Happy for them to get a buff, but NL is truly steadily on its way to the bottom.

[eternal panther]

[tidal halo]

At this point we should hope for class exchange coupon 🥲

[azure gyro]

[tidal halo]

HAH! This one of you guys? Speaking so much truth, yet Nexon keeps refusing to acknowledge 🥲

[narrow scroll]

Buff NL

Funny enough we spammed buff nl on pc version enough and they did indeed buff it lmao

[normal vector]

If we already capping on quad star with full buff, doesn’t increasing the damage % only help our clone lines…?

[fringe glacier]

Yup.

[narrow scroll]

just increase the damage cap so nl can pump harder

just wait till we get throw blasting and it triples our burst

4th v is what makes nl a night lord on pc version

[normal vector]

heard its not gonna be that great in terms of lines or dont have high expectations lol

[narrow scroll]

Yeah depends how they balance it idk maple m just started last night lol

But I have killed black mage on reboot on mspc

[tidal halo]

If tripling is all it makes, then shadower with their current skill set is already at triple our current burst. By the time they get 4th V, we're still playing catch up

[whole nova]

is it worth swapping my boost nodes to have four seasons at lvl 60

or is that very minimal dmg increase

cause i see some ppl running the trio with quad star assassins mark and four seasons

[graceful salmon]

don't spam feedback

use the reactions

[thick yarrow]

HI , NL is better that NW ??

[plucky sundial]

You're probably only capping the main lines

Our main attack skill has
5 Quad Star
5 Quad Star Clone (35% FD)
8 Night Lord Mark

These might be close to capping, but aside from the first 5 lines, the rest require decent investment to cap

and Barrage Quad Star (25%FD) are not cappable outside of using temporary buffs (Shadow Walker, Last Resort) that do not have 100% uptime

buffing skill% will increase damage by about 5% for me
weighted more toward the start of Barrage and when all temp buffs go inactive

[plucky sundial]

no

[plucky sundial]

Four Seasons lv50 is fine
Even less is fine probably
It has really high skill% and is very easy to cap

Four Seasons clone lines with lv50 boost does 33% more damage than lv60 boosted NLM

[plucky sundial]

Worse. We're not untouched. We were nerfed in Explorer Remaster.

[tidal halo]

Was there a bug o.O

[normal vector]

No NL buffs

[solemn temple]

shadow buff? 😂

[tidal halo]

For record purposes to reference post patch:
Assessin's mark - 30% activation chance, 50% skill dmg
NL mark - 20% activation, 100% additional damage increase

[tidal halo]

Yeah hopefully we patch tmr, login and see assassin's mark: 200% skill damage (:

[fringe glacier]

👀

So are we getting a small buff or just a visual fix?

[graceful salmon]

Afaik visual/text fixes tend to be stated clearly. This could potentially be a background fix that shadow buffs us? Altho it didn’t say what level it was stuck on so it also might not matter

[fringe glacier]

Hopefully small buff!

[tidal halo]

Don't give us hope 🥲

but then again... what can smth with 50% skill damage do for us 🤔

[eternal panther]

hopefully it's buffs

[tidal halo]

sadkek.. skill description wise it’s completely the same

[plucky sundial]

I think there's no difference to us?
The skill dmg% listed and applied seemed to match
Perhaps those with unmaxed NLM used to deal as much damage as if it were maxed
Meaning this fix only affects NLs that are <Lv140

[plucky sundial]

It's 50% + 100%
and 8 lines per cast of Quad Star with Shadow Partner
It's pretty much half of Quad Star

Also the lines are doubled during TSB
So extra skill dmg on it would be pretty helpful, especially because skill dmg% applies quadratically in boss dmg formula
They're pretty hard to cap because of low multiplier. Pretty sure a good amount of NLs aren't capping it 100% of the time, although it's sort of cappable (~17% higher than ADI)

[thick yarrow]

A question .. for boss is better Night walker or Night lord ?

[still fossil]

We both suck bro, go make a phantom and be happy.

Or paladin

[twin furnace]

does anyone know if the nl v4 skill has cooldown

[eternal panther]

yea

[plucky sundial]

NL V4 in KMSM

@twin furnace

There's an active and passive component
So there's a cd for the active component, but the passive component seems to be always on

[tidal halo]

Oh wow didn't know that there's a passive component. Hopefully it'll make the off burst rotation slightly more tolerable.
(Although tbh burst these days are pretty weak sauce too)

[potent heath]

Cant even call it a burst anymore. Feels very underwhelmed compared to other class.

When people ask me for my mdc after a boss run im quite ashamed to tell them the actual value.

Whilst having the highest mdc but placed somewhere around 5th in terms of dps.

Wasnt very apparent for other bosses but damien and lucid. NL is almost useless. Tend to lean more to useless than almost useless

[plucky sundial]

Yep, really feel the burn of DPM classes.

We do ok in Damien P1... and for some odd reason, they decided Damien P2 should be a lot longer than P1. PC Damien had a much shorter P2, iirc, the majority of the fight stayed in P1.

[normal vector]

r u guys saving the nodes you farm for V4? or just opening all now?

[plucky sundial]

Probably save 'em if you don't need the boost atm

[graceful salmon]

Prob gonna save like 800

[eternal panther]

Better to buy nodes for v4 now or after v4?

[potent heath]

If v4 is indeed coming this year i should be around june. I think every year sometime ard june they launched (v1,v2,v3)?

Been saving up since post v3. Definitely enough when the time comes

Id usually buy before the panic buying starts. If not for the price would be the availability. Though non of that happened during v3 (in my server at least)

[eternal panther]

July

How many nodes is safe to maxed v4 about 1000?

[graceful salmon]

Less than that with the job specific node update. With 1000 I was able to max 2 vskills from high single digit levels and end 2 other vskills off around lv17-19 from high single digits levels as well

This was while extracting boost nodes at lv25

[wintry sigil]

And Here I was extracting everything at lv 5 on db

[graceful salmon]

The grind must’ve been real LOL you were still a beast tho

[potent heath]

Ah yes july!

[azure gyro]

Hoping someone in Nexon will watch this and decide to buff NL

[tidal halo]

I think nexon has jumped ship to Shadower. So this is their forgotten child now

[wintry sigil]

Post in feedback

Watch it work too

[burnt flume]

This is bias tbh based on what they put towards the team mainly

[plucky sundial]

The tier list is kinda all over the place... especially the seldom-played classes
Blaster near the last place is just wild. They were "fixed" recently and are doing quite well after that.

[plucky sundial]

Approximately 1576 nodes to max both if you have 8 maxed vskills.

[normal vector]

how many nodes to max V4 assuming v1-v2-v3 is maxed?

[granite whale]

should be around 400-500 nodes per vskill assuming you're dismantling trios at lvl 25

[normal vector]

[plucky sundial]

I had a brainfart moment, I dunno why I did the calculations with 8 maxed vskills
But yeah, should be around 500 each

Closer to 600 realistically, though
You'll end up with spare boost nodes that aren't maxed

[normal vector]

got it, i have a few trio nodes between level10-20 sitting around, and currently storing up nodes for V4

[daring lava]

Quick question may I know the current value for necro TPBA?

thank you

[potent heath]

#msm-feedback-qol message

This deserves more upvotes.

[tidal halo]

^ so well compiled...
but think it's a dying class lol not much NLs left these days. Don't see many of us in Lucid conquerors etc

[normal vector]

25622 lvl50 sf31

[whole nova]

hey guys, i swap out my 3rd, 4th and rope lift slots for bossing

are there specific decent skills that are best to use

or maybe even subbing in venom burst or something

my venom burst is lvl 22 if that helps

also i currently have my 4 additional skill points on v2 for the cooldown reduction but when i lvl ill prolly put the 5 in v3 cause i heard v3 does more dmg

any feedback will help, thanks in advance

[graceful salmon]

In lotus, your primary vskill is omen (v3).

Decent skills: (don’t need if your team already provides it)

• sharp eyes
• speed infusion
• combat orders

[whole nova]

would you say sharp eyes and speed infusion are more important than combat orders if i could only choose 2

[mint marten]

So in the conclusion venom burst is ok to bring to boss or not since some said it will replace Venom which makes overall dmg lesser

[fringe glacier]

If you have an extra spot aside from all other essential skill nodes for bossing setup up, you can.

[eternal panther]

yup

[graceful salmon]

Yea probably. I’d say SE as the most important since it’s kinda umcommon and is applicable in bossing and training, then SI for bossing and CO for training+bossing. All that, but still remembering to remove whatever decent skill your team already provides for you. More often than not, your team will have CO since pally is a common slot in a team.

[whole nova]

thanks for the answer, appreciate it!

[fringe glacier]

Dhb if you’re finding survivability an issue.

[still fossil]

How much cd/ba do NL needs

What targets should I be aiming for

[graceful salmon]

We tend to like leaning heavier on CD, like 5:3. But 4:4 works just fine, I have friends that have been 4:4 since forever and haven’t changed it up and they do just fine.

[wintry sigil]

Full cd or bust

[high igloo]

Full cd

[still fossil]

What percentage of cd

400%?

100% ba or higher?

[fringe glacier]

I’m 421% CD and like 158% BA

And I’m consistently around 45m dpm for lotus with 18.3m mdc. My bursts hit near 80m dpm. But when our burst isn’t up we are by far a bottom tier dps.

[graceful salmon]

You want to hover around 400-450% CD. Nowadays you can be closer to 400% and be perfectly fine

Pumping higher than that will start to result in noticeable diminishing returns

[fringe glacier]

Let’s keep going on Ronald’s message in #msm-feedback-qol channel. Let’s keep refreshing that message every couple days.

[graceful salmon]

Agreed! Just remember that no matter who posts it, it needs to be 24h+ before it’s posted again or it’ll get taken down. But I’ll always be on the lookout to give it the

[eternal panther]

need buffs

[fringe glacier]

Do we another buff skill with our v4 like we got last resort with v3?

[eternal panther]

Should yeah

[graceful salmon]

If I’m not mistaken (pcms), our throw blasting is accompanied by maple world goddess blessing which is a burst buff for stats/dmg. It’s supposed to work in tandem with maple warrior but we don’t have that in msm.

[fringe glacier]

Hmm gotcha.

[fringe glacier]

Buff NL

Pre-remaster to Current comparison
[Night Lord's Mark] used to be 200%, now 150%
[Quad Star] used to be 360%, now 280%

The most direct comparison we have is NW as their Quintuple Star and Shadow Illusion's clones are straight upgrades to our Quad Star and Barrage.

Throwing Star Barrage adds 3 extra instances of Quad Star
NW's clones adds 3 extra instances of Quint Star

Quad Star has 280% skill DMG
Quint Star has 375%/395% skill DMG

Throwing Star Barrage has 25% FD
NW's clones (Shadow Illusion) have 35, 30, 25% FD (I previous thought it was 35, 25, 15)
Their weakest clones have the same FD as TSB, but they have 90% more skill DMG, which is a lot.

TSB has 90s duration, 180s cooldown
Shadow Illusion has 120s duration, 180s cooldown

Not asking to make us OP
But just give us pre-nerf skills, given we were not OP even pre-nerf, and it's been a while.

Other things:
Darkness Ascending has 100% uptime
Bleed Dart has 66.67% uptime

Shadow Illusion is a Hyper skill, so it's maxed from the start
Barrage is a Vskill, meaning we have to invest a significant amount of nodes to achieve max uptime, but it's weaker

We have Night Lord Mark that don't bounce and 150% skill dmg
They have Shadow Bats that bounce and 165% skill damage

We have Toxic Venom which is overwritten by Venom Burst
They have Dark Elemental which is not overwritten by Venom Burst

The fact that we have another class whose skills are a straight upgrade to ours by such a large margin is just really awful, in my opinion.
Of course, the 2 don't work completely the same, but we're as similar as it gets.

As of now, NL is just NW, but worse.
The 2 material advantages we have over NW:

1. Our iframe cooldown is a bit shorter via cd reduction from Sudden Raid
2. They're closer to a pure DPM class, while NL has a burst, albeit still on the weak side

NW isn't even close to being OP like DB used to be
So the fact that NL is a straight downgrade to NW, a non-OP class, is just... adding insult to injury.

[eternal panther]

Quad star used to be 400%

[fringe glacier]

I meant to post this is qol channel.

😅

[dusky dove]

have a noob question as im new to the game but is it wise to build a clean necro instead of buying ready made due to budget

[graceful salmon]

Building your own will cost more in the long run. It’s personal preference, and should be decided based on how much effort you are willing to invest into the game (alts, dailies, meso making method testing, etc.)

[dusky dove]

oh ok thank you

[weary cedar]

why is NL as dogshit as ever

[lament mirage]

How so?

[weary cedar]

We’re like D tier dps and offer no utility

[lament mirage]

That picture doesn’t seem like NL is lacking in dps

Granted it’s gd but it shows the damage capability

[weary cedar]

Gd doesn’t mean much

[lament mirage]

What about your V4?

Isn’t that supposed to be your strongest burst skill alongside V1

[weary cedar]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/776688568718458880/1225922453134377102/image.png?ex=664c6b81&is=664b1a01&hm=edb1705d3fc9d2fc35bb73463e12eb83232d69e1ea64de291f92af661232d0bb&

[lament mirage]

Furthermore they rebalanced your V4 to factor in clone lines

[weary cedar]

I don’t put much factor into echo

But it’s still not nothing

[lament mirage]

I think that’s just his opinion

[weary cedar]

That’s true, but we also have multiple NL in the guild and it’s just not that great

While also bringing no utility like Rez or anything

[lament mirage]

Perhaps NL needs some special arrangement inside a boss run to fully maximise its capability?

[weary cedar]

We just need more than 4 lines from our main skill

But since its called quad stars nexon will never give us more than 4

[dense cradle]

Need more % Dmg

[dense cradle]

Nailed it

[normal vector]

Where? In kmsm?

[graceful salmon]

5 lines*

[eternal panther]

400% quad

[modest steeple]

Any presets for NL?

[graceful salmon]

Depending on your playstyle and what content you’re thinking about, there could be a few variants you can make yea

[tidal halo]

plight of NL
#whereisourbuff 🥲

[plucky sundial]

What boss these days needs two bishops?

[tidal halo]

hahaa, ikr... i guess its to legnthen fight time and increase chance of clear. NL, the sitoutfirst class 🥲

[potent heath]

Abit early to ask but Is there a thief common skill for v4? Or just throw blasting?

[normal vector]

I think it’s maple warrior

Common

https://youtu.be/GrwVegPIbQs?si=AfiWL83QBmWqGMLk

[potent heath]

Ahhhh thanks man! So it's not a thief specific skill.

[eternal panther]

Need buff

[broken pelican]

need huge buff

[eternal panther]

betting on anniversary update

[potent heath]

Our shadow partner needs another shadow partner

[eternal panther]

yea

[still fossil]

What do y’all think of the v4 skill. At first to me, is seemed that it’s going to help with our dps in our burst downtime, but 75 explosive charms doesn’t seem like a whole lot.

[plucky sundial]

Barrage is 90s.
This is full Barrage NL against a boss that just stands there and takes it...

Our full cycle is 180s (90s Barrage, 90s Normal)
Barrage has ~52% more lines than Normal.
Using Normal Mode as a standard, in 3mins we get 1.25Normal as average lines per second.
In the first 60s, we get 1.5x fully. meaning that's about 20% beyond our true average DPS.

Frontloading DPS is obviously a big advantage as well; as boss doesn't always allow you to hit them. Especially so for Damien and Lucid, that has horrible DPS uptime. Watching Barrage timer tick down while boss is unhittable is absolute pain.
And for that, NL has very weak burst at the moment. Shurrikane is only 264 lines; Omen is 600, but Omen also takes a whopping 15s to fully resolve. Even Kinesis's full burst is shorter than that. Most decent classes hover around 7 - 10s for Burst duration; any longer and they probably underperform, same as us.

Our true avg line per second now stands 89.07, with roughly 90% effective cap rate.
DB has 91.70 lps, 90% cap
Evan has 98 lps, 95% cap
Kin has 93.6 lps, 98% cap
Lumi has 99 lps, 90% cap
DA has 87.7 lps, 99% cap
Ark has 102.6 lps, 98% cap
Mercedes has 107.2 lps, 80% cap
Shadower has 98.7 lps, 90% cap

So frontloading aside, in a vast majority of runs and without extreme investment (cap rate can be made irrelevant with stuff like mythic flames), NL will lose out to any class with a decent burst.

But NL has a quite godly 108.4 LPS while Barrage is active, and GD is one of the easiest content to cap in, which makes us good at GD.

I've written a lot on this, particularly in reference to the SS'd person's performance.
He's strong, yes. He's good, yes.
But he can only achieve such results in easy and irrelevant content. Nothing to say about him personally, because as I said, he's good and personally, is who I refer to on how to play the class.
Lucid isn't irrelevant for most people, but it is for his team. If he joined a weaker team, his results would falter because NL's skillset, while the other two who goes toe to toe with him on his team would perform similarly nonetheless.
A very obvious undesirable attribute to have in a class.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1C4S2E0-hjvn9umyTRhjj3U3nXWx4xif4g6MTyXLJR4I/edit#gid=255850342&fvid=37314836

Supporting data

If we get KMSM's V4, we also get one of the middling V4's with line count ranked 30 out of 40 or so classes
So it will buff us, yes, but probably most other classes are getting a bigger buff, making us relatively worse.

Sorry if that came off a bit strong to a necro'd topic
But damn I feel gaslighted whenever someone mentions NL having potential to be top tier in the current meta

Maybe Will will have more DPS windows and we can be decent again

[tidal halo]

What a legend. Sick breakdown.
Tbh, when blaze wizard players say they feel sorry for us (personal experience) - we know we're pretty much in the trash tier 🥲

[tidal halo]

"19. Fixed an issue where, upon casting Quad Star, the Final DMG from additional throwing stars would display as lower than intended while Night Lord's Throwing Star Barrage buff is active."

Not sure if we got ninja nerfed previous patch or if it was display issue only as described

[normal vector]

Buff?

[graceful salmon]

The word “display” has me worried it was only visual 👀

[raw frigate]

they changed barrage? 60 seconds duration and 120 seconds cd?

or was it always like that

[solemn temple]

they just changed it

it was 90s duration 3 min cd

not sure why it wasnt noted in patch notes lol

[normal vector]

yup changed

didnt even notice unitl guildie pointed it out

[raw frigate]

i only notice when i was doing gd and it ran out before gd ended lol

[normal vector]

yeah i noticed taht too, and i thought i started too late or something...

and also had V1 during hmag after ark... which i usually dont

[graceful salmon]

Now I need to actually sit down and rethink how I prefer to have my presets cuz it used to all line up

[plucky sundial]

Right... It no longer syncs with Bleed Dart

Annoyingly, Bleed Dart would expire right as the 2nd round of Barrage starts

although I think the shorter cycle should be a good thing in general

Good news is that with 30% FD, even without Bleed Dart, it should do more damage than 25%FD+Bleed Dart

30% from 25% = 20% boost
Bleed Dart is 15% PA and 25% PD
Which should end up being ~8% boost
Maybe a bit more depending on stats, but definitely not up to 20% boost unless unbuffed maybe

[graceful salmon]

It’s crazy that just the other day I recall you mentioning the length of our burst being somewhat problematic. Then suddenly barrage duration/cd is adjusted

[plucky sundial]

They listened!
Frankly very happy about the changes

This should sync up barrage with V4 as well, I think KMSM's V4 is 2min cd

The FD change might also be because of our feedback?
We now have the same FD as NW's mid-point clone FD (35/30/25 for them)

[eternal panther]

now need them to bring back 400% quad

[normal vector]

Yea it use to be 25% of FD and now it’s 30%

Wish it applied to shadow partner… anyone know if PC barrage applies to shadow partner?

[tidal halo]

Omg you're right.. no wonder when I was reading the skills it looked a bit funny.

[tidal halo]

Also yeah wth? The 30% final dmg ???
I was about to go back to your analysis to see if I remembered anything wrongly lol

[tidal halo]

Isn't bleed dart supposed to be adjusted to 100% uptime as well?
It feels like they've copied/pasted some stuff but not the entire thing. Feels a bit weird

[solemn temple]

Turns out it was a bug and they're reverting it

[potent heath]

A very short lived happiness

[normal vector]

Stil 30% though…

[fringe glacier]

So buffed and nerfed within a few hours. Did we still receive a buff at all?

[tidal halo]

If it's like what Ronald said.. 30% from 25% = 20% boost.
Although unsure how significant this will be in actual gameplay

But I guess we now know who is part of the next gang of peeps getting rebalanced thanks to nexon's oopsie

[potent heath]

I kinda look at it that way too. Perhaps it's already in the pipeline but "oopsie" got ya'll panties wet n nerf ya'll within hrs

But even post patch is still 30% FD. They just revert the CD and buff duration

[plush locust]

were these the changes you guys were talking about a few months ago #1059991474357424148 message

hopefully they change their mind on the mark nerf

[eternal panther]

They forgot about the 30%

[fringe glacier]

So a little boost is good. We are making progress.

[amber pumice]

Can anyone share their skill wheel and v matrix and maybe some tips regarding both? (Lvl 206 nl currently)

[graceful salmon]

There will be some light variations of skill wheels for bossing and other content like dojo, based on preference of playstyle.

AUTOBATTLE

If you’re struggling to survive, remove aoe that you can’t 1-2 hko with. Things like flare, curse, sudden raid, four seasons(this one is typically strong enough but check anyway), etc. Shurrikane is set to travel/unlocked. My upjump is only on there for dream defender, it’s not needed for this purpose.

BOSSING

How you organize your wheel and presets is entirely up to you and what feels comfortable. But you’ll generally have all the same equipped stuff as other NL’s.

VMATRIX

The amount of slots you have available will dictate your options and you will need to decide what you need for your situation. A slot unlocks for purchase in increments of 5 levels. For example, the last 3 slots for me are subject to change based on content and team composition. This is my ab setup. Ropelift and hyperbody (most NL’s need hyperbody for end game bosses lately) are typically removed for content where I need to fight, replaced by things like speed infusion (BA) or defense smash 4 (DS4/IED). Even swapping out decent buffs for something else if the team has a job that provides the real version of that buff. Before you ask, venom burst is trash. Its relevance only truly creeps in slightly when the damn thing is maxed out.

[amber pumice]

Really informative ty very much🙏🏻

[still fossil]

Did anyone else dmg decrease since patch? Or did I F something up

[plucky sundial]

It should've went up

[hasty cloud]

Sry if im asking for a question that has been asked before (scroll for quite a bit but dont see any)

Which V skills is best to max first? V1/2/3?

[graceful salmon]

Probably something like:

1. Barrage
2. Shurrikane if not doing lotus, omen if doing lotus
3. Whichever you didn’t max above
   Then the buffs

[plucky sundial]

Probably Omen better to level first than Shurrikane

Shurrikane is a better skill overall
But it gets marginal boost from levelling

Omen's cd reduction is bigger than the 0.5s duration on Shurrikane
And Shurrikane has high skill dmg naturally, while Omen starts off much lower (ie. Shurrikane can cap at lv1, Omen probably can't)

[potent heath]

Id be picking barrage first then omen. Since omen helps alot in AB too.

[normal vector]

^

i dont even use shurkien for AB lol

[raw frigate]

Isnt it more efficient to craft node stones instead of a specific v skill node?

[graceful salmon]

Nah, there’s very rarely a reason to craft a nodestone in msm. Just craft the vskill you’re trying to max. Chance of getting a vskill when opening a node is 20%

[kindred lake]

It is more efficient tho especially if your vskills aren't maxed

[plucky sundial]

It is sort of more efficient when you have 0-2 maxed vskills

Crafting takes 35 shards

The "shard value" of a nodestone when you have 0 maxed vskills is 39.50 shards per node
1 maxed is ~37.44
2 maxed is ~35.38
and so on
Goes down because if you have maxed, the value of opening that skill drops (extract value less than feed value)

But you're adding an element of RNG, as well as adding an element of waiting
Because you can't extract boost nodes until lv25 to achieve this efficiency

Probably not worth the trouble

For NL, I think, especially it's not that worth it, because Barrage is so strong, you want to funnel your vskill levels into it as much as possible to start off

Long-term it's slightly more expensive, but you'll be a lot stronger a lot faster in exchange

[normal vector]

[normal vector]

only 960 lines

[shy quest]

This was before it was revamped

They later added clone to work on V4

So something for yall to take note next week whether MapleM Global NL's V4 have gotten the revamped V4

[normal vector]

with clone.. i assume itll be 960x2?

[shy quest]

Yup

[normal vector]

got it

[eternal panther]

hopefully it's strong

[tidal halo]

This was what I've heard as well.. pretty sad when there are classes hitting 2-3k lines haha

[fringe glacier]

Is this gonna make NL soar from the ashes once again and be decent?

Or gonna be a let down..

[normal vector]

Guess we’ll find out in 2 weeks

[fringe glacier]

Next Wednesday.

[stray parrot]

What hyper stats should I go for after MDC, FD, Phy dmg, 1 point additional lines?

[austere spire]

ADI should've been maxed before Phy Dmg alr

So ADI

[stray parrot]

Thanks - ADI == deals additional skill dmg upon attacking?

[austere spire]

Yeah sorry

[stray parrot]

Best kind thank you

[granite whale]

Does it work with barrage stars after revamp?

[shy quest]

Let me ss the patch notes

[granite whale]

tyty

[normal vector]

Barrage should work wit clones

[shy quest]

TLDR, there will be a clone/adi revamp coming in either this patch or next month. Should this revamp came, NL's V4 is changed to work with clone lines

https://forum.nexon.com/maplestorym/board_view?board=1215&thread=2518423

@granite whale

[granite whale]

ahh doesn't look like it'll work on barrage stars though

[shy quest]

By right Barrage should work with clones? Since its technically quadruple throw with multi lines and clone lines ontop of it?

[granite whale]

it doesn't work with clones

currently at least

clone still only throws 1 set of stars

[shy quest]

ah ok

I think just to prepare yall

Just kiv on the revamp

[granite whale]

it's probably gonna be the crap version this month

and we gotta wait for revamp

[shy quest]

I wonder how much mdc we are going to get haha

in order for them to implement this clone/adi revamp

[granite whale]

max damage limit to clone is dumb though

[shy quest]

Its back to pre V1 days

Although i saw Moonbeam saying that Kmsm players mentioned its not a nerf

So it remains to be seen

[fringe glacier]

https://tenor.com/view/spongebob-squarepants-begging-pretty-please-beg-on-your-knees-pray-for-mercy-gif-26344462

[normal vector]

Buff clone damage and decrease skill damage… lol

[plucky sundial]

Well we can continue using QS with it active

Full cast time should take about 10s
Which is 20QS+16Marks

During barrage, combined with v2 and v3, we'll have one of the burstiest bursts
Approx 2.2k lines
edit^this was rough count and wrong

[normal vector]

how does that compare to other classes?

dont forget if we get echo, even more

[plucky sundial]

Well... lemme actually do the math
In full total for 15s, we would do:
30QS = 5+5+12 * 30 = 660 (actual use count needs testing, but should be around 30 casts)
25Mark = 8+8 * 25 = 400
V2 = 264
V3 = 600
V4 = 900
2824

As comparison (up to V3):
DA does 1600 or so lines in 8s as their full burst
DB does 2432 or so lines in 14s as their full burst
Evan does 2200 or so lines in 10s as their full burst
Kinesis does 2200 or so lines in 12.5s as their full burst
Mercedes does 2500 or so lines in 8s as their full burst (loads of uncapped lines)
Pathfinder does 1368 in 6s (90s rotation)
Shadower does 1680 in 6s (90s rotation)

Good news and bad news:
Basically with the addition of V4, our total line count roughly matches Evan now (up to their V3)
But we have stronger burst than them up to V3, but V4 probably pushes them above us still

but for short runs, we will outpace pretty much everyone, because Barrage is disgustingly good while it's active

[normal vector]

nightwalker has astrong v4 too

[plucky sundial]

We would be similar to DB if they get V4, and no other buffs

but we would be more frontloaded than them

[normal vector]

https://www.reddit.com/r/MapleStoryM/comments/1dimw2q/v4/

[broken pelican]

gg if they reduce our Quad again too

[weary cedar]

Our quad is already 280%

Way below that 355%

But their shadow partner is 70%

They nerfed qs and buffed sp

They nerfed our qs and kept sp dogshit still

[plucky sundial]

Don't look into it too much
They have ridiculously high MDC, that's why they have different skill dmg%.

Their skills also don't all work the same way as ours.

In this instance, they moved the weighting of damage away from other skills and instead significantly buffed Throw Blasting (v4). That would actually be a welcome change for us, to be honest.

No more wasting damage as we see barrage ticking away as Damien/Lucid are invulnerable.
Throw Blasting takes a mere 10s to pull off, and does not go to waste even if we mistime its activation as it's based on charges and not pure duration like Barrage.

[normal vector]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TuEdMbKfu7w

[broken pelican]

yeah but kmsm quad was always higher % then us. So when they reduced we reduced too

[normal vector]

https://youtu.be/Va1NrxwVzV0?si=jqI8jcG7tMvdxmfP

[sturdy grotto]

^
^
^

After seeing this video i think Nexon have a secret feeling with us .

It’s a “ Hatred “

Rip guys

[lament mirage]

I dont understand thou, why is there so much doom and gloom over your V4?

Isn't your V1 arguebly the strongest single target burst in the game? Doesn't your V4 add-on to your V1?

[normal vector]

Nope

V4 compliments quad star

Just like how clone doesn’t work on barrage (V1)

V1 compliments quad star

[normal vector]

Strongest single target? Probably not, Mercedes v3 is up there

[lament mirage]

But doesn't Mercedes drop off really badly after that?

Yall too narrow minded to just see the burst during those moments

[normal vector]

Pally v3 is strong too

Their hold down skill

[lament mirage]

So what? Pally has a strong burst. Yeah i know that, but how do you explain Demon Slayer beating Paladin so easily WITHOUT a burst skill?

Having a burst skill during those moments yes it looks really good

But its the long haul

that matters

[stuck mango]

Merc n NL are similar in a sense that we buff n burst n strong for 1 min then dead

Evan v3 is way stronger than merc

[lament mirage]

Evan has V2 to give them an edge

During their V3 cooldown

[stuck mango]

Yea

Slightly better dmg w v1 and 2 fusion every 30s

But dang we don’t have DS to deal with DR

[plucky sundial]

Have you actually tried NL?
You've been here before, and we tried explaining why our V1's lines have very high waste-rate. The fact that it is the bulk of our DPS is EXACTLY the problem.
Our damage is stacked in a skill that wastes a lot of its potential during a real boss run.

We are also currently one of the lower Total Line Count classes.
We're not the lowest, but we're down there.

Low line count + High waste = in most content, we underperform

Comparatively, Pala's Echo works similarly to Barrage, in that it boosts DPS.
DB's Blade Clone also boosts their DPS a lot, similar to Barrage.
However, a bulk of their lines happen in the first 5s for Pala, and 14s for DB.
While we don't have that luxury, Barrage's lines is completely spread.

So every second of DPS downtime hurts us more than other classes.
Yet we are not compensated with higher potential Total Line Count to make up for it.

That's the issue with NL.

Imagine 2 classes that only has 1 skill each:
Class1's skill does 100 lines with 1s cooldown
Class2's skill does 1000 lines with a 10s cooldown
Both have 100lines per second
But Class2 will outperform Class1 in everything but GD and Fog Training Ground. Because every second you can't hit the boss, Class1 loses lines while Class2 doesn't.

Luminous is another class that doesn't burst very well

but they have a whopping 12% more lines than NL, and is much much easier to cap

They "waste" their lines, as it's practically impossible to do their perfect rotation, but it doesn't matter because their total lines surpasses such classes as Evan and Shadower

NL has one of the worst cap rates of all classes, matched by DB and beaten by Mercedes

That's why DB fell off from their OP days
They lost their line count advantage, and have similar disadvantages to NL, although they do slightly better because they do ~3% more lines and can burst out their lines faster

[plucky sundial]

Demon Slayer does have a burst skill, their V2, which is more bursty than ours <<<< edit: this is wrong
Though it's true, it's not really as good as Pala EchoV3

The flaw in this statement is that Pala does not easily lose to any class at the same level of investment
and little known fact, Pala does well despite a good portion of their lines being hard to cap

Plus, DS has decent line count and easily caps

[plucky sundial]

Mercedes line count is ~10% more than Evan/Lumi/etc, some of the top classes
but they can't outperform those classes because they can't cap their lines

Little wasted lines (achieved through frontloading of damage)
High Total Lines
Skills that can cap more easily (no clones, basically)

These are the 3 aspects that makes a class good

NL has none of the 3

There are other classes in a similar situation

So we're not alone

but we're with them

[plucky sundial]

He probably simply meant our V4 looks pretty lacklustre animation-wise
Our V4 fixes one of our glaring flaws (weak burst)
But does have a low total line count

So nothing meta-defining, but it's pretty good overall

[plucky sundial]

You say we're close-minded, but I'm willing to bet my entire account you didn't even glance at the data I shared when you came last month.

and now you're back

and this time with additional name-calling

[austere spire]

https://tenor.com/view/sickburn-burn-gif-14522658

[stuck mango]

What do you mean cap rate? As in ability to cap the small line?

[still fossil]

Anyone have the og line count spreadsheet? I want to see where every chars line counts are now with the v4 data

@plucky sundial

[high igloo]

Yeah and our lines aren’t even full lines considering clone lines are only 0.35x dmg of a real line and barrage is only 0.30x so even if they counted as full lines, which most tests do consider them as full lines, we face the issue of them being ridiculously hard to cap unless your mdc is very low.

[graceful salmon]

what v4 data, the patch hasn't even come out yet

[broken pelican]

@plucky sundial thx for this summary Bro Lets hope for a nice Rebalancing make NL great again. Our only part in this game is DPS and even that we cant do good anymore

[plucky sundial]

yes, that's what I meant
some classes cap easily due to high skill dmg and self-buffs

[plucky sundial]

You mean this?
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1yUwSaHJmXBOvc-eI0UD7EMVyu4WUc2OwjkXPbMa4AWI/htmlview#

[plucky sundial]

Actually, not just ability to cap small lines, but also the amount of our lines that are "small"
Every class I looked at so far has small lines of some sort, some just has less
and not all small lines are made equal
Mercedes's weakest clones hit for half of ADI damage... that's crazy low
Barrage with 30% FD hits just a tad more than ADI; with 25% as it was before, it was a bit below ADI

[plucky sundial]

Actually I don't wanna be all doom and gloom
I definitely overreacted to what Arrun said, and he has a point

NL isn't bottom tier, we're just middling, I guess?
Phantom's lines are abyssmal right now, for example, they're only saved by utility for bossing (I think this is so since V3, because their V3 is not very good)
DB has more lines than us, but they have a lot of trouble capping as well; so even with higher line count, they likely do similar or only slightly better
Marksman, BoM, BaM, AB, Mechanic, ... I've also heard they're not doing too well, but I'm not too familiar with these

[normal vector]

Pally OP

Excel is every category

[still fossil]

Yes thank you this is very helpful

@plucky sundial how is it tho, this says NL top 4 dpm in lotus at equal funding and we’re still only at 16211 single target (middle of the pack) lines post v3. That make sense to you?

[raw frigate]

“Nightlord did extra 3k…….”

[still fossil]

That’s multi target

[raw frigate]

omen scales with the number of mobs in the map and lotus p1 constantly summons flying minions

because of that, nl happen to do better in lotus p1

not sure if this was what u were asking about

17.2k lines is factoring in the addition mobs

16.2k does not (i would say this is the more accurate number for comparision against other classes)

[still fossil]

I really didn’t expect NL to be that high on the list for lotus dpm, considering there is a lot of rotation, and we only maximize the potential of barrage on more stationary targets while uninterrupted.

[finite mesa]

Phantoms utility about to decrease even further if the rumors I’m hearing about how time leap will no longer reset bsps and pallys resurrection skill CD after this Thursdays patch are true.

[plucky sundial]

We get a lot of extra lines in Lotus
Our V4 goes from 600lines to well over 1k in P1
So we're actually probably the best in P1, and among the best overall
Aside from the fact that we contribute next to nothing for clearing the mobs

We drop off a lot in Damien/Lucid due to our lines being stacked in Barrage
These bosses have a lot of staggered DPS downtime, which makes Barrage lines get wasted a lot

It wasn't much of an issue in bosses prior to Damien
So even in Lotus before we had V3, we did relatively ok
V3 made us good in Lotus, and still ok everywhere else

Actually, we're probably one of the best in Arkarium, since most teams should clear well before Barrage ends, or only slightly after

but that comes to what I mentioned before
NL excels in easy content... which I think most would agree is not a particularly good thing

On the bright side, the retracted patch quickened our DPS cycle
Barrage duration/cd changed from 90/180 to 60/120
Still 50% uptime, but quicker cycles means we can control the wastage better

[plucky sundial]

That seems unlikely...?

But Phantoms utility goes beyond that either way.
One of the ways they surpass other classes is DPS uptime. The same reason Pala tends to be good.
Sacro allows them to "skip" boss mechanics.
For example, pinning in Lotus, you'll be knocked back a lot. No matter how quickly you can ACP > Dash back in, that's some DPS loss. But with Sacro on, that's not an issue. Same for dodging falling debris. You get 30s of not having to care about mechanics.
And Phantom has a lot of iframes... they steal Dark Sight + Sacro and have some iframes of their own.

Another thing is that they can bring some Bsp utility while having a lot more DPS than Bsp.
Shell is used for most teams in Lucid, and if PC mechanics carry over, it will also be used in Will.
Lucid Phase 1 is a lot safer with Shell, and you need around 3-4 shells for the entire Phase. Bringing 4 Bsp is a lot worse than 1 Bsp + 1 Phantom.

Likewise, in Damien, they can bring Sacro + Fountain + Heal

So they block meteor and act as a backup healer, which helps the pinner survive when Bsp is luring Blue Orb

It's a very versatile class with, imho, better utility than Bsp

[plucky sundial]

Pala fell off a bit because they can't cap. Similar to Mercedes.
It's not as much as Mercedes, but they have a good amount of small lines. Rare among warrior classes.

In terms of pure individual DPS
They excel more the messier the run is, though, because they have the best iframe in the game in Sacro.
They're only beaten by Phantom because Phantom can steal Sacro + has other iframes.

The stronger your team (and the stronger you are), the less impact Sacro has.

In terms of team DPS
They do bring something to the table that doesn't appear in DPS charts
Giving Sacro to your top DPS through Echo is invaluable
Also, they have Noble Guardian (formerly known as Threaten), which isn't always useful, but is useful for Hdamien teams that are new or barely clearing
If you're struggling in Hdam, most of your team won't be turning on Fair Trade unless they have lifesteal. The CR debuff increases team DPS a lot.

[plucky sundial]

To add to this
Against ST, Omen does 7stars per instance
For every additional target, add 5stars, up to a max of 42

With 4 bots on screen
V3's line count goes up nearly 300%

Of course, we clear the bots, so it's not always 4 bots
But our V3 does a lot of lines, easily 1.4k capped lines during P1 on a 60s cooldown (at lv30 Omen), and barely interrupts our QS casting

That data averages lines across the run, for which we'll continue to cast V3 in p2/p3 at its regular line count
Its actual line count during P1 is actually insanely high

For reference, 1.4k lines is same as Shadower's V3, which is on 90s cd and is one of the best bursting skills
Plus Shadower's V3 has a hard time capping half its lines and they can't cast Assassinate while casting it... for about 6s

[tidal halo]

6s 1.4k lines is insane though. Would trade some V skills for that

[subtle hedge]

Hi guy

Night lord must spam money to play or else can't really see the high damage ?

[plucky sundial]

5+5+12 QuadStar Barrage cast ~18 times
8+8 Night Lord Mark cast ~15 times
+900 from V4
+264 from V2
+400 from partial V3

Total takes maybe 11s to do all this
396+240+900+264+400
2200 lines

V4 is gonna be exciting for us, actually, I think
No need to trade Vskills, we're getting our biggest burst soon hahaha

[plucky sundial]

Always a tough question to answer

No class does good damage without some amount of investment, either in time or money

Meta chasing is also generally not recommended, because patches come every month

Meta classes come and go

Classes with clone lines generally need more PA, though, to cap more of their lines
But some classes that cap very easily have little lines, so you'll see a sharp drop-off in damage increase at moderate investment

[plucky sundial]

If you want to be impactful with minimal investment, support-classes are the way to go
That's Bishop, Phantom, Shade, Paladin

[subtle hedge]

Now I thinking kaiser ilm wind archer and night lord haha

[broken pelican]

but you was right. Yes we not the weakest class and we not Bottom tier but still we a Classcanon DPS class but currently we only a Classcanon.

[finite mesa]

Not sure where the rumor originated from but I heard that apparently it’s an alleged change coming to either asia 1 or kmsm? China players have been noisy about it on our server the past couple of days. I’m still looking for confirmation on it since it really affects my noob lotus team. Haha

Yea phans are really just too good as a dps and blocker. But if the nerf to time leap really does happen, I think their utility will be mostly reduced to as you mentioned sub bsp with dps and blocking capabilities for majority of teams. Unless the team is really good/in the top 5% then maybe they can support with time leap to reset split, iframes, ds4 etc during burst windows.

[subtle hedge]

Hi guy

After V4 patch NW will be stronger than NL ?

Now which one stronger

[broken pelican]

Nw

and nw after

NL weak

very weak

[subtle hedge]

Lol

U playing now bro ?

NW*

[graceful salmon]

https://tenor.com/view/crystal-ball-gif-25122500

[plucky sundial]

If Leap no longer resets Revive, I don't think Phantoms will end up taking it.
Split has a reactivation cd, similar to stuns, so Leap's utility there is limited.
And 3min cd for DS4 refresh is pretty bad...

They'd probably take the FPM skill for extra lines. I forgot what it's called.
Or straight up take revive/guardian, which has longer cd than Bishop/Pala's but would still give us an extra revive.

[plucky sundial]

NW probably stronger now.
But they're harder to play.

After V4, NL gets 1k or so lines per 2 minutes.
NW gets around 2.75k lines per 3 minutes. (3 uses of V4, since V4 is 60s cd)
Their V4 does 250 or so lines, but their clones duplicate it. Their clones have 120s uptime with 180s cd.
So they get 2 uses of 1.25k lines + 1 use of 250 lines every 3 mins.
The 1.25k lines will depend on their skill dmg on whether they can cap though.
V4 for NW is probably slightly better or similar to NL, not as ridiculously good as the rumors suggest.

NL 1k per 2 mins = 1.5k per 3 minutes.
NW 2.75k lines, but 2k lines are clones lines. Highly dependent on how much sdmg% they give for how good this will be.

[subtle hedge]

Lol ur line d
Figure I don't know what's that haha

[plucky sundial]

Oh, well the general conclusion is

NW will do better for most people
NL will be easier to play

[subtle hedge]

Haha

Both are god in single target job

[normal vector]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/776688568718458880/1255516471707308082/IMG_2698.png?ex=667d6a55&is=667c18d5&hm=a827b49860371446c547e9cc0fa87eeeaa35cf493ec2c712301f76e4da9ee380&

https://tenor.com/view/snoop-dogg-dre-riding-driving-rolling-gif-13800248

[potent heath]

Massive!!!!!!!!

[tidal halo]

omg buffed. Rejoice my fellow bros.
Yet... still not changes to QS and Mark of NL 🥲

But can someone explain the clone part? I don't understand the examples they're giving

[finite mesa]

Bruh

70% dmg shadow partner

Wild

[tender wadi]

Where can i see the patch notes?

[rancid topaz]

https://forum.nexon.com/MapleStoryMGlobal/board_view?board=2690&thread=2590265&fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR2ouPsf3EjtklPzv-97UjVfWqOOvJ5JsuHqVEXqcoMeb_mKxOp4nBCQ_Fg_aem_ONYJt2Pf4_NQvJthGhOcrg&sfnsn=mo

[normal vector]

From guild mate explaining clone dmg

Current pre patch -
Apply damage formula to your patk + batk + CD + FD + etc = you are supposed to do 50m "true damage" line to boss
30m MDC caps that 50m line to 30m line
SP gets 35% of 50m "true line" and does 17.5m line

Post patch -
Apply damage formula to your patk + batk + CD + FD + etc = you are supposed to do 50m "true damage" line to boss
30m MDC caps that 50m line to 30m line
SP gets 70% of 30m capped line for 21m line

so basically if you were doing way over cap before patch, you'll see a small buff, if you're doing around cap, you'll see a huge buff from 35% to 70%

[muted matrix]

• Example of Max DMG Applied to Clone DMG, Additional DMG

ex) When Max DMG is 50,000,000/Clone DMG, Additional DMG stats are 70%
Before: Base DMG: 70,000,000 / Actual DMG: 50,000,000 / Additional DMG: 49,000,000 (70% of Base DMG)
After: Base DMG: 70,000,000 / Actual DMG: 50,000,000 / Additional DMG: 35,000,000 (70% of Actual DMG)

[tidal halo]

Ok yeap so basically just say it as a hard cap to 70%. Makes the math easier.
They gave the example at the bottom which made no sense at all

[normal vector]

Yea the example was a little confusing until
My guildmate explained it lol

[finite mesa]

Low key the best thing this patch. No more tapping til sore thumb

[normal vector]

I rarely use this on NL

😂

Rope lift for AB and no tele

[plucky sundial]

Overall seems to be a buff

Shurrikane adds 170 lines per 30s
Omen adds 600 lines per 60s
Bleed Dart adds 60 lines per 180s

We lose 30% of CloneQS/Barrage lines
Which is... 1920 lines per minute (120x(5+12x50%))
So a loss of 576 lines per 60s

So 384 lines per 60s boost

[normal vector]

Isn’t changing barrage to 2min cd a buff?

And 60s duration

[finite mesa]

Those are “unavailable skills” this applies to QS

[finite mesa]

Quick with the maths as usual bruv. Looks like a tiny buff. Mdc went up like crazy though

[solemn temple]

question if you were doing high enough 'true damage' line to hit MDC cap with clone, then isn't this a nerf

[kindred lake]

Did you read the top? You can hold down Quad like it's hurricane

[solemn temple]

since now that line will be restricted to 70% of MDC

[kindred lake]

No more carpal tunnel

[normal vector]

Oh right haha

[kindred lake]

[graceful salmon]

Clone is currently 35%

[solemn temple]

but that's 35% of the actual or true damage, whereas after patch is 70% of MDC

so there's a situation where if you're doing absurd actual true damage (phrasing above), the current pre-patch clone lines are stronger than post patch

is that understanding correct?

[plucky sundial]

Should be
Shorter cycles is generally a good thing

[plucky sundial]

Clones nerfed, but you get extra lines from ohter sources

[plucky sundial]

breakdown of line gains from other sources vs damage loss from clone hard cap

net gain of 384 lines per minute

without V4

[solemn temple]

gotcha

[normal vector]

@weary cedar

[plucky sundial]

Currently with 35% clone and 30% barrage
capping both should be possible even with decent PA (no need mythic flames at all)

it was super tough when barrage was 25%

[solemn temple]

im at 44k att and believe capping when full buffed

so it is why i raised that concern

but if our net line increase is positive then still a win

but moreso for weaker NL which is good for them 🙂

[plucky sundial]

Yeah, the net gain should be more than 384 for us in a real run though
Because QS in fog training is used a lot more than in a real run
But V2+V3 is mostly usable with close to 100% efficiency

so more lines in V2+V3 is better than more lines in QS

easier to cap as well

they increased V3 skill dmg a lot

[weary cedar]

@solemn temple yes

if you were capping SP before at MDC

then this is a nerf to you

but if you were capping SP before at MDC levels, you were doing insane whaling

say you got full everything maxed out and were doing 200m true lines that were capped to 30m, then the SP would be capped to 30m too before
now its capped to 21m on SP

but overall the other buffs to other skills should still put you ahead dps wise as a whole

this is just aligning everything so its simpler and also scales better

[normal vector]

So long term is better?

[weary cedar]

long term is better unless ur spending way too much money on a stupid phone game

also cap helps us way more now

each 1 point of cap = 1 more main damage + 0.7 SP damage

[graceful salmon]

Oh I see what you mean now. Yeah it looks like I would lose around 5m per clone line in that case

Rough

[weary cedar]

where it used to be 1 point of cap = 1 more main damage + 0.35 sp damage (or more likely, 0 sp damage since your SP wasnt capping anyways)

[weary cedar]

losing 5m in clone lines mean you were doing something along the lines of like 80-100m true line?

and 70% of it was being wasted by MDC?

[graceful salmon]

Oh idk what my true dmg is. I just ran 70% mdc vs my current clone line cap

[weary cedar]

whats ur current clone line?

i feel like theres maybe a handful of people on scania this would be a nerf for

[solemn temple]

but also they're jacking up everyones MDC like crazy

so it'd be even harder to cap clone lines with the old formula

[weary cedar]

this is a net positive for everyone imo and makes MDC even stronger because SP will benefit too for all NL, not just the top 0.001%

[graceful salmon]

Oh wait I read the wrong battle analysis. Looks like it’s a 2m gap between my current clone lines and 70% mdc. I have 13m clone lines in a non-DEF boss

[weary cedar]

13m clone lines = 37m main lines

[graceful salmon]

Oh nice thanks haha

[weary cedar]

so if ur cap is 25m for example, ur new clone will do 25*.7 = 17.5m lines

so you'll benefit by 4.5m per line on clones

[graceful salmon]

Omg

+omen buff, eager to see my next lotus then

👀

[weary cedar]

if ur cap is 20m, then yea, its 15 vs 13 so then 2m benefit

but the beauty of this is that, with the new cap increases, ur new cap is now 20m + 3m base + armor bonuses

but ur SP wouldnt have changed at all

since u werent capping

but now, ur SP will benefit from the MDC since its 70% of main lines

[graceful salmon]

That’s more of a change than I understood at face value. Ty that’s actually pretty cool

[weary cedar]

Assume stats = 37m damage / cap = 20m baseline

prepatch =
20m main line + 37 * .35 = 13m SP line = 33m total

(hypothetical) new MDC buff to 25m (but assume SP same) =
25m main line + same 13m SP line = 38m total

(hypothetical) new SP w/o w/ same 20m MDC =
20m main line + 20 * .7 = 14m SP line = 34m total

post patch w/ MDC buff + new SP =
25m main line + 25 * .7 = 17.5 SP line = 42.5m total

@graceful salmon @normal vector anyone else who wants to see the breakdown of how the patch buffs each part

[plucky sundial]

The line boost on Shurrikane and Omen should make up for the clone hard cap even if you had infinite PA, though

and 37m base damage is very modest
Your main QS should hit for ~3x assassin's mark damage

and 35% clone does more damage than assassin's mark
while 30% barrage does ~10% less than assassin's mark

[weary cedar]

You mean clone? Mark SD isn’t that bad

Isn’t mark like 150% skill dmg?

[plucky sundial]

I mean if you hit 20m on Mark
Your main QS should be ~60m
Clone QS is ~22m
Barrage QS is ~18m

[plucky sundial]

Yep 150% on Mark
280% on QS
2.8*2.8/1.5/1.5 = 3.4
Minus a bit for diminishing returns

and both getting Boost node bonuses that are equal

QS main line ends up hitting around 3x Mark

and 35% clone, being around 1/3, will do around same as Mark

so if you are close to capping Mark

your QS takes a hit from the clone hard cap

unless Mark is 70% or less than cap

[weary cedar]

Omen is gonna be stupid good

[plucky sundial]

Especially in Lotus

let the lines fly

hahaha

[normal vector]

And lucid P1

Both yall love to dive deep into the #s

God bless

[plucky sundial]

Good news and bad news, coz a rough estimate is that some classes are getting +1k lines per minute

while we get ~380

which our V4 might make up for the difference

but need to wait for V4 details to make it conclusive

[graceful salmon]

Cant wait for all the players who don’t understand the numbers fully and don’t have a resident Ron in their class forum to start fog testing and misconstruing it all and flooding the bug report and feedback channels with their result differences

[weary cedar]

better get the brooms out and start cleaning 😂

[graceful salmon]

I wish I could just sweep it up, bruh those situations force us to go thru an entire process to confirm what we can and organize their complaints and sometimes it’s for nothing cuz they were wrong to begin with

[weary cedar]

Ctrl + A > Delete

😂

[graceful salmon]

Fr huh, delete it all I love fog training grounds. It opened up Pandora’s box with people testing to fact check the devs all the time

[eternal panther]

Wish they buff quad

[warped raptor]

Does showdown help with lasers in lotus?

Can I showdown and dash?

[graceful salmon]

Nope that would be sick af tho LOL

[weary cedar]

Lmfao

That would be broken

[solemn temple]

worth investing into / using now? 🤔

[normal vector]

Yes I think so

Definitely better than regular toxic Venom

[solemn temple]

although

is it the case that regular venom applies clone but venom burst did before but now won't?

that would sort of offset the line count. but I've never used it

the DEF ignore is nice though still, yeah I'll probably level and equip it

[normal vector]

Hmm didn’t catch that

[solemn temple]

general guidance for this is to only use passive and not active?

[normal vector]

Guess we’ll have to wait and see and test it in training ground

[plucky sundial]

Since only active component is buffed... you'll want to use the active.

Passive component still weaker than Toxic Venom.

Not sure if worth if clone lines no longer apply to it.

[normal vector]

Hmm I see, prolly not worth putting on to the Matrix, now that we have 2 new skills…

[plush locust]

they really shouldve made the skill presets 5 slots when adding maple world goddess's blessing

[sturdy grotto]

Thanks sir 🙏

[normal vector]

np

[finite mesa]

VL mag soul - 1.4m
RA/hilla mag soul - 1.6m
Vel mag soul - 2m
mag mag soul - 2.4m
arka mag soul - 2.8m
lotus mag soul - 3.2m
damien mag soul - 3.7m
lucid mag soul - 4.2m

Have to graduate RA souls eventually…

[weary cedar]

2 new skills? What

What else

Oh what does the goddess skill do

[plush locust]

burst skill. probably: epic adv -> throw blasting -> barrage -> goddess -> shadow walker

it's crit dmg and final dmg for some duration. 120s cooldown

[normal vector]

From lucid clear

Nutssss

[normal vector]

maple goddess, the common skill

[jade crag]

Can someone share their boss wheel skill and presets with the new skills?

[subtle hedge]

Guy

Night lord buff skill unlimited

Is it higher dps than before a lot

[finite mesa]

That’s wild that quad star isn’t on the top LOL

[normal vector]

yea lol, still sorta new to lucid. this was like our 2nd attempt after patch, (total about 5 attempts or so)

[finite mesa]

1250 lines per min for throw blasting seems pretty neat

God damn I can’t wait to boss tonight

[solemn temple]

it seems like we got buffed pretty nicely

i went from 1.2b igd to 2.3b unbuffed

[eternal panther]

strongest class in msm?

[solemn temple]

also my GHB multi went from 250b to 550b full buff. wow

[subtle hedge]

Lol night lord strong now is it

Ven bro what's ur weapon

Necro ?

[plucky sundial]

1 cast demo at lv30

NL's V4 has clone lines!

1050 main line
1050 clone line at 70%

[plucky sundial]

You can probably set everything to auto buff now
Everything will sync up

Especially Epic Adv, it should just be auto.
It takes 2 explorers in the party to make it 100% uptime, so a bsp ensures 100% uptime for explorers.

[plush locust]

auto buff the burst skills? I may be missing something

but I understand for EA

[plucky sundial]

In most bosses, dps downtime is either unpredictable or unavoidable, so the benefit of waiting to use Barrage isn't big

Maybe in Lucid, if your trumpeter can tell you in advance that they messed up the Trumpet

but aside from that, dps uptime being unpredictable, no reason not to always use Barrage ASAP

for V4

you get 75 charges

and 60s to use it up

it takes ~5s to use up

so no reason not to "reload" on auto

[plush locust]

gotcha i guess if it hits dmg cap without the other buffs

[plucky sundial]

Setting all on auto also means u will reload and buff at the same time

coz everything is on same cd

else you will be standing there for 2-3s activating everything in sequence

auto buff has no animation, but manual buff has delay

so I ended up setting stuff on autobuff since Lotus

and have noticed next to no drop in efficiency

so far...

although manual casting V4 to match it with DS4 is very tempting

[normal vector]

@high igloo

[normal vector]

That’s OP man…

[normal vector]

Awesome test man lol

NL kings

[eternal panther]

so maxing barrage first and then v4 right

[normal vector]

I think so ^

Anyone test if the hold down quad star has more use count than tapping it??

Or it should be the same

[solemn temple]

lvl 48 necro

[plucky sundial]

I think level the two somewhat evenly

They both add similar lines at max level
But the marginal benefit is good on V4 because the skill dmg% increase; hard to cap it at lv1

so level somewhat evenly because higher level nodes take more exp

1 level of Barrage
Gives you 0.5s of barrage now
Which is around 1 QS
12 lines of QS with 70% FD
8 lines of Mark

5 levels of Throw Blasting
Gives 5 charges of explosives
+20% skill dmg
That's 14 full lines
+14 clone lines
per level, but given at 5 level intervals

So... V4 > V1
but at 5 level intervals

[finite mesa]

Siiiiccccckkkk

[subtle hedge]

So now NL NW which one stronger

[umbral kettle]

end game still favors nw on my side

cant beat free heals + iframe

[plucky sundial]

Need to wait for NW test data

But seems like NW

They had too big of a lead to start with

and our V4 is strong, but theirs is too

similar 2k+ lines in 2mins

[umbral kettle]

same v4 lines

as yours

around 20XX

[sturdy grotto]

woahhhh so our v4 has so many lines

good 👍

[rapid portal]

Hi can anyone help out with the latest skill wheel for NL?

[plucky sundial]

put Bleed Dart on auto pet if u manual it before

V4 on auto pet, or manual on its own slot for DS4 sync

no diff other than this

[subtle hedge]

Ronald bro

Do u recommend a f2p player choose NL job ?

[plucky sundial]

Play what you enjoy
Try a few different classes before you pick
You eventually have to build Legion anyways, which is making a lot of somewhat levelled characters in your account, so you have time to look at different class skills before deciding on a main

Just know that online games take time to build your char, so don't expect to do endgame very quickly

If you do want to boss more with less investment, you probably want support class, in which case I don't recommend NL

[broken pelican]

@plucky sundial did u tested the Hold down function? is it better then clicking or clicking still better?

[potent heath]

Did a 3min test at 40% boss def

V2 aside...I don't recall our v3 having so many lines. Anyone has the pre patch battle analysis with same settings in fog training?

[subtle hedge]

Legion lv now is 4400+ beo

Need hw much

To max

[potent heath]

Preferably you would want to have a min of 6700 legion lvl to open supreme legion 1 (which will have larger synergy grid for you to place those legion blocks to get more dmg)

I think as for max. The more the better but now seems 8200 is just fine

[plucky sundial]

Seems to be no difference

[plucky sundial]

V3 lines were doubled

[subtle hedge]

Wa that's a lot

[plucky sundial]

Although that seems more than double

[subtle hedge]

Synergy grid I also don't know how to put lol, looks complicated

[plucky sundial]

can't find the ss, but old V3 did just shy of 600 lines on Fog

590ish

[potent heath]

This is my AB synergy grid. The idea is to "lego" it till you get to maximise the stats

[plucky sundial]

found it

[subtle hedge]

I thinking to play NL cause of strong single.target, even no pump a lot still win ilm wind archer those job in boss

I think will pump 3-5k but not one shot

[plucky sundial]

ok nvm, ya, it's about doubled

matches with patch notes

Omen hit count per star 3 -> 6

[subtle hedge]

Bro are u talking to me or not lol

[plucky sundial]

@broken pelican

left is press and hold

right is click

[broken pelican]

thx bro

[plucky sundial]

actually slightly different

huh...

i dunno if I just pressed it wrong because I'm not used to it

[plucky sundial]

Nope, I was addressing liew earlier

[plucky sundial]

I don't recommend chasing meta, this patch shifted a lot of classes around
We don't really know what's best right now

[potent heath]

For press hold skill it seems like there's a delay when we click other skills. Need more time trying but I did notice clicking "feels" faster as I can feel my rage clicks is contributing abit of dps ehehheheheh

[plucky sundial]

Ya I noticed the skill wheel shifting to V3

[subtle hedge]

Both of u at which server

[plucky sundial]

on the preset where I had QS/V3

it didn't cancel v3

but that may have caused delay

[potent heath]

I'm in a1k

[plucky sundial]

I am A2Z

[subtle hedge]

Ic

[plucky sundial]

I'll do a bit more testing later
I have old data where I got 119 casts of QS quite consistently
But here I got 118 even with clicking

using only QS and nothing else

left is hold

right is click

started holding QS since before statue spawns

so... seems conclusive... we still need to click for max atk spd

[sturdy grotto]

[subtle hedge]

Guy 5pm patch

For this press hold delay issue

[plucky sundial]

nice

might still end up doing the clicking tho

holding it feels wrong

hahahaha

[broken pelican]

thx for ur effort

[azure gyro]

From my tests (fog forest):
16k~ lines for 3min pre patch.
23.5k~ lines for 3min with v4 post patch

24.9MdC pre-patch -> 32MdC post patch

[plucky sundial]

nice

[plucky sundial]

but some lines are hard capped clones, so the actual line count for us is probably quite a bit less

3 min means you had 2 mins of barrage here
so around 2/3 of QS uses had barrage
around 115 QS
231 QSBarrage

That's 346 clone QS
231 barrage QS
346x5 = 1730
231x12 = 2772
4502 lines are affected by the new hard cap

For a loss of 30% * 4502 = 1350

Throw Blasting is also half clone
So 4479/2*30% loss = 672

So our 3min should be equivalent to 23.5k - 1722 = 21.75k lines in 3 mins

if anyone has data from non-clone classes to compare

how do we fare now?

[normal vector]

Phantom 23100 - 23400 (depends on luck)
Nightwalker 22400 (27169) (actual hit count is 27.1k but the clone is garbage so the actual effect is similar to 22400)
Dark Knight 22187
Dual Blade 21688 (248xx) (actual hit count is 24.8k the clone is not as garbage as Night walker the actual effect is 21688)
Xenon 21500 ( 231xx) (actual hit count is 23.1k but the clone is garbage so the actual effect is around 21500)
Nigh Lord 22900 (23348) (got affected the least , the actual effect is 22900)
Shade 21xxx
Hero 21xxx (bugs mayb?)
Evan 22500 (may be more, there are some mistakes)
Luminous 224xx (tbc)
pally single player content - 22.6k , multi havent test , shud be around 30k . ( discounted line of course . shall calculate the actual effect later )

[10:34 PM]
Conclusion : the game is more balanced than ever .. we finally get to witness this

This was shared to me ^

[plucky sundial]

The clone penalty on us seems too low
Barrage was also affected by the hard cap, not just Shadow Partner

So we're close to Xenon/DB

less than DK/NW/Ph

Ph looks like it's way too much lol

Nexon made a mistake and overtuned them?

[normal vector]

Also less than NW ?

[graceful salmon]

Throw Blasting (Lv25 + Lv30)

Maple World Goddess’s Blessing (Lv25 + Lv30)

Dark Lord’s Omen (Lv25 + Lv30)

Shurrikane (Lv25 + Lv30)

Throwing Star Barrage (Lv25 + Lv30)

[broken pelican]

nice

[finite mesa]

They seem to be big winners, almost all their skills except tempest got a hit count increase. The nerf to leap and sancro duration doesn’t even hurt because of it

[spice oyster]

Can anyone share bursting rotation for NL

[rancid topaz]

Should I use the V4 in auto pet?

[normal vector]

I have it on pet

Sync with v1

[plucky sundial]

V3 > V2 > QS spam

while you have both barrage and throw blasting on, that's NL's max bursting period

so if you manual them
V4 > V1 > V3 > V2 > QS spam

[tidal halo]

is there a point in using venom/showdown in the rotation for the debuffs (for extra damage ticks)?

[spice oyster]

When attacking do we use any other skills apart from QS

[plucky sundial]

Vb might be worth now? Unsure.

Showdown, no.
The debuff is used in mulung fl43 if you can't burst it down, but that's about it.

[plucky sundial]

Sudden Raid
Four Seasons

You can preset
Qs > FourSeason > SuddenRaid

Sudden Raid especially so because it reduces dark sight cd

[mighty parrot]

Does new throw blasting (activated) work along with throwing star barrage? Might be dumb queztion

[eternal panther]

Yea

[rancid topaz]

Thanks bro

[plucky sundial]

It works in parallel.
Using the two separately or together makes no difference to number of lines.

[mighty parrot]

Thank you!

[eternal panther]

What’s best to maxed after all four V skills?

[plucky sundial]

Among the common vskills?
Probably Last Resort for the passive.
Then Shadow Walker for the dark sight cd.
Then Goddess' Blessing.
Then Venom Burst.

Dark sight cd is good, but I rank Shadow Walker lowly for levelling because the marginal gain from SW levels is very low. Having it at lv1 is pretty good already.

LR's passsive linearly scales from lv1 -> 30.

[eternal panther]

Yea

[tidal halo]

Shall run some numbers when I'm free later and share around once I get to it. Pre-patch vague (self) tests on GD I rmb sudden raid was giving me a bit better output

[plucky sundial]

Showdown in GD?

[tidal halo]

In other news though... v4 is intense. Would say nexon definitely did good this time around. I've never seen mulung boss melt like smoother butter

[plucky sundial]

Hmmm now that you mention it
Barrage was better than Showdown agains the Octopus in GHB pre-patch. But not by much, and required minor buffing for me (baby chick, and taking pre-buffs).
But now that Barrage is hard-capped... maybe Showdown is better after we use up Throw Blasting uses.

[tidal halo]

Shucks got a brain fart. I meant SR.
Showdown doesn’t work with Throw blast, so I think it won’t be good for multi GHB

[finite mesa]

Oh damn I didn’t even think to use V1 + V4 in multi ghb, have always used showdown! I always thought that V1 would miss the back limbs so I’ve never really tried it. I need to test it out soon. Having bursts set on auto pet makes it hard to time for ghb though since the duration is exactly 60s now. From the moment we get off mount til ghb starts is about 10+s wastage already so we only have +/- 50s to spam V1+V4. Gotta manual it I guess. 🤔

Personally though I feel showdown is really lacking lines for the octopus in ghb. I often see myself losing to people who are similarly geared by quite a large margin. Not like I’m competitive beyond knight rank though.

[warped raptor]

should i be crafting the new skill?

help @graceful salmon

[mint marten]

i suggest u to craft node and open it instead to gain the benefit of another V skills u r not max

[warped raptor]

hmm ok

just opened 400 nodes so out for now

[graceful salmon]

Yeah for sure. Both throw blasting and maple goddess are both good burst buffs

[plucky sundial]

Since you're opening hundreds of nodes, you might want to take this chance to change your trios. QS/Mark/4Season together, so you can apply matrix pts.
Then Showdown/SuddenRaid/DarkFlare leave at lv50 (maxed but no matrix pts).

Sudden Raid does not need the FD to cap, in all likelihood. It's our highest skill dmg% skill.
Then you'll have 10 pts to distribute to vskill slots.

[warped raptor]

i already consolidated

[proud blaze]

Is 4 Season worth casting during bosses like Damien/Lotus/Lucid?

[subtle hedge]

Guy

Now night lord leveling skill won't lose to NW right

Cause of aoe v skill

[plucky sundial]

Autobattle?

We weren't particularly weak in AB since remaster

We are weak in multi-target GHB because QuadStar only hits 1 target

But v3 clears maps quite well

And showdown has decent range

New vskill isn't used for ABing

[plucky sundial]

Yes

[tidal halo]

Not sure if I'm dong smth wrong but tried QS vs QS w/ SR (both with VB equipped as well) for a 3min timer..
Seems like the one with SR is doing marginally higher DPS

[potent heath]

I tried throwblasting first then showdown on GHB multi. This is the result. I think it could be better as I was still fumbling over my new presets

[graceful salmon]

Adjusting to new presets and wheel setups is such a pain

[tidal halo]

What the heck... I think that gives us a shot at winning matches now!

[potent heath]

Yeaaaaaaaa!!! Fumbled a few times during bossing too!!

[eternal panther]

so showdown better?

[potent heath]

I did what Ronald suggested. Start with throwblasting, deplete it then use showdown

[plucky sundial]

Nice.
What's your MDC?

I did regular just spam QS with Barrage

and got 871.35B

51.3m mdc

[potent heath]

58.4m mdc

Now I'm wondering what's the best combo for multi

QS+Barrage+throwblasting
Or
(QS+barrage+T.blasting) + (showdown) mixture

[plucky sundial]

58.4/51.3 * 871 = 991.9
Hmmm... looks like not much difference
But if as you said, you fumbled a bit, looks like QS+V4 > Showdown mixture will end up with a slight lead

I also buff quite a bit for GHB, btw.
I eat Baby Chick cookie + I get prebuffs as a guildie has a prebuff party ABing everyday. Hero, Can, Pala, etc. Basically the full set of party buffs.

I don't think I can cap some lines without those after the patch's new MDC.

[potent heath]

These were the buffs I took. I haven't try full buff on though.

[plucky sundial]

I'll try the Showdown mixture as well if I get Octopus tonight

scaling MDC always has some inaccuracies

[potent heath]

Keep us posted too!

[graceful salmon]

The big D nl’s

[plucky sundial]

Got the shell today

[potent heath]

Somehow multi has better results right vs single target now

[plucky sundial]

I think in terms of relative rank
At same MDC, more classes beat us in MT than ST still
But our MT rank should have risen. I matched someone I lost to pre-patch (Aran) in MT, and beat them post-patch.

I was just sad I couldn't test the Showdown thing hahaha

[warped raptor]

you dont use venom burst?

[graceful salmon]

nope lol

[warped raptor]

[graceful salmon]

ill probably max it and use it later on when i have nothing better to max or if they buff it

for now i am still funneling meso for exalts

[dusk leaf]

Hi Im lvl 201
Is venom burst worth it (for farm or boss)?
Im thinking about what i can extract, i want to craft the skill nodes that i dont have yet (D HB, D CO, D SE…) and lvl up v1/4/3/2 and lvl up trios
Any advise would be welcome, Im a newbie who has just reached 200

[dusk leaf]

Or is better to only craft nodestones?

[daring lava]

no

[plucky sundial]

Update on this
I got 932 using showdown after V4 charges used up
Without baby chick cookie, so it's a significant increase

[potent heath]

Update on this. No potions and only self buff on same method as what you suggested. I got 1.023

[normal vector]

So what’s the consensus ?

[plucky sundial]

Use up V4 then use Showdown once V4 charges are used up

[rancid topaz]

Hello friends, a question, should I change the position of the v4 where I have the lvl 5 skill boxes? If so, what skills would you change?

[eternal panther]

I always thought barrage was better than showdown in any ghb

[normal vector]

What about the v4 passive?

[plucky sundial]

Hmmm... I guess that would be optimal? QS once every 10s I guess?

[plucky sundial]

It was pre-patch

But barrage was nerfed

So 17 of 22 QS lines are now hard capped at 70% MDC
While for Showdown, only half is hard capped

That's probably what changed things around

[dusk leaf]

Which nodes should i craft? Vskills for lvl up, others skills (for lvl 1), tríos or nodestones?

And which nodes should i extract? Apart of special nodes

[sturdy grotto]

Guys

What is the best skill order to do a great dps after v4 updated ?

v4 > v1 > shadow walker > goddes buff > v3 > v2 then spam atk button ?

[granite whale]

V1 should be the last thing you hit before attacking so you don’t waste its duration pressing everything else

[sturdy grotto]

ok bro thx 🙏

[granite whale]

i normally do something like v3 > v2 > shadow/goddes/v4 > v1 > spam

[mighty parrot]

Excellent tip here ronald, i never thought of this, thanks for sharing!

[normal vector]

Why is it that showdown yield more damage than spamming QS w/ barrage?

[plush locust]

theyre specifically talking about guild honor battle where multiple targets?

[eternal panther]

Yea

[plucky sundial]

Yup this is for Octopus GHB only.

[daring lance]

can anyone send me the thief discord link please

[potent heath]

Erm.....this channel? I mean....its quite complete as is.

[normal vector]

do u guys have fair trade in the front or back of skill wheel for bossing?

[umbral kettle]

that should be dependent on how u setup ur wheel

[plucky sundial]

Fair Trade on front for bosses up to Lotus
on the back for Lucid/Damien

My front page has
Dash
Jump
Frailty Curse
Dark Sight
QS Preset 1 (QS > 4S > SuddenRaid > VB)
QS Preset 2 (V3 > V2 > QS)
Buff Preset (V4 > V1 > ShadowWalker > Goddess)
Blink/FairTrade/ErdaNova (Erda is for Mulung/SC, Blink for Damien/Lucid, FairTrade on everything else)

Among these...
I'd probably get rid of FC if I wanted to put FT on the fron page

[potent heath]

Mine is pretty much identical to Ronald's aside from double QS preset. My QS Preset (QS>4S>Suddenraid>V3)

• I don't use VB anymore as I refuse to pay for additional slots (as of now) since post patch dmg has increased significantly. So I'm onto 1buttom spam mode.

*4S or no 4S on QS presets. Well, also because of post patch...but I do have double QS preset without 4S for more mobility. I do die at times due to the lag from casting 4S when I get greedy for dps on lotus lasers, lucid crescent attack (when my hp was lower)

[normal vector]

how are you guys liking the hold down QS instead of spam clicking? or are you guys still spam clicking QS?

[eternal panther]

Still spam clicking

[granite whale]

arthritis is part of the experience

[potent heath]

I alternate between clicking and hold down between contents and situation. Overall I think it's good that we had a choice

[graceful salmon]

Agreed. Small things like tapping during lotus lasers to allow us to creep forward by holding the d-pad at the same time is nice

[green echo]

For 141 - 181 passive points its better to pump to showdown reinforce and additional hit now for ghb?

[plucky sundial]

I think our Hyper only has additional target, not additional line on Showdown

And the base target count is already above 4

Iirc

[normal vector]

Anyone test out if venom burst is worth using or not…?

[plucky sundial]

It's all right sometimes, but definitely requires high node lvl

At lvl1, it will 100% reduce your dps

It's more worth it to use in content where you can't consistently hit the boss

like Damien and Lucid

because the poison duration is longer

Toxic Venom is better for content where you can consistently refresh the duration

it's short duration, but doesn't matter if you're constantly refreshing it

If you do have it equipped, though, the active is worth the cast time

[eternal panther]

weak

[azure gyro]

@plucky sundial Could you share your approach for clearing MuLong floor 45? Assuming post V4 I’m clearing it, but also aiming to optimise the result time. Wondering how to get the most out of our CDs and V4 to get the best total result when it comes to floors 40-45 and timing

[normal vector]

I’ve been trying to save v4 + v1 on 44 as Cygnus kills us pretty fast .. since is hard to dodge

[plucky sundial]

It's all about bursting and using these 2 skills:
Dark Sight
Erda Nova

Just throw your burst at him
Erda Nova at the start
Dark Sight when he reflects to skip 1 reflect
Is the basics of it

but depending on your stats, you might have to use your burst and iframe/stun on fl44

in which case, just run around and do these when they get off cd, if it goes that long

Cygnus is a race as well, as her curse is unavoidable

It can be avoided using 2 things:
Dark Sight
Hero's Will

Dark Sight is a no brainer
Hero's Will can resist it, but needs to be used before the debuff happens, so this is impractical

So it's largely just burst her down as fast as possible with Dark Sight as a safety for the curse or if the whole floor is covered in purple pustules

[normal vector]

What’s the priority for slot enhancement for the common skills? I assume maple goddess first?

[finite mesa]

What hyper stats you guys prioritize after FD, ADi, PDi and MDC? I was in the middle of upgrading BA when my guildies told me that DMG ignore rate is extremely good. I always thought it was ignoring 20% damage but apparently the way they explained it to me was 20% DMG ignore rate = 1/5 chance to completely ignore damage. They said it can even ignore Ark’s screen crack when it does proc and would be extremely useful in end game bossing for survivability. I’m thinking Damien, popcorn and tornado etc.

I personally think it’s a bit sus since I innately already have 10% DMG ignore rate but have never noticed/experienced surviving screen crack without Shell/heavens door. Any thoughts?

[normal vector]

I went BA

dmg ignore rate is a defense stat

[plucky sundial]

DMG Ignore Rate is the probability of ignoring normal attack damage
I'm not sure about other classes, but NL has an inherent 10% DMG Ignore Rate from [Shadow Shifter], a lv100 passive

Few things about this:
Most boss attacks are not considered normal attack
We don't really know for sure what counts as normal attack, but from what I can tell, it can only block the same things as Bishop's Holy Magic Shell.
So this won't save you from most things, including Damien's Dash, popcorn and firestorm.
Surviving a Dash where you should've died is probably due to Heaven's Door, and not DMG Ignore.

So it does have utility, but it may not be as good as you expect it to be.

I currently have 27% EVD and 10% DMG Ignore
I don't ignore damage nearly as often as 37%; as that'd be pretty noticeable

As an aside, although overcapping Barrage is no longer necessary
We still have Night Lord's Mark that is not easy to cap
So dmg stats are still important for us

So I would recommend BA over DMG Ignore because of these 2 reasons

The utility of DMG Ignore is not applicable to all boss attacks
We still have Mark which is not easy to cap (I'm not capping my Mark at the moment)

Some classes don't care about the dmg stat because they cap everything freely, or their uncapped skill does ~1% of their damage

Mark does a significant portion of our damage

[finite mesa]

Thanks a bunch for clarifying! I’ll keep working on my BA slowly then. It really is as sus as I suspected

[normal vector]

Shouldn’t ur min damage be 0.7 x max damage?

Min damage would just be the clone capping right?

[plucky sundial]

There's min dmg difference because of DS4 and Lucid's DEF increase when someone dies, I think.
Shurrikane and Omen has no clones and are fully capped.
I'm not fully sure why QS/V4 has a difference, I'm guessing it's the death thing that was mentioned by the patch note when Lucid was first released.

It's the only thing I can think of for why the min dmg is so low in Lucid

This is from Lotus

it's less than 0.7x for min dmg because the max DMG is DS4 damage

but NLM still doesn't cap always

I think the capped lines are from when I have goddess buff active

so by the by, even though there's no need to overcap Barrage anymore, it's still good to sync it with LR/SW/Goddess because Barrage doubles our Marks, and it stays our hardest skill to cap

[finite mesa]

Hmmm… those NLM lines will be even weaker in SC then. How well have NLs been performing in SC post V4?

[plucky sundial]

A lot better

We get 2 minutes of barrage instead of 90 now over 3 mins
and our v4 is massive if timed well with DS4

I beat out some people I used to lose to

so improvement, but not really sure about who the top contenders are now

[plucky sundial]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9de8DR-UFs

If you want to have a look at a demo

https://youtu.be/AKgLlKahHZ0

and this is from before V4 patch
It's a longer run, so you can see me jumping around more, and also this was when I used stun/iframe during fl44 instead of fl45

[finite mesa]

God damn… what a grind even with your damage pre V4. I take double the time to clear this grindfest with my current damage and with V4. Couldn’t even clear f44 pre rebalance.

[finite mesa]

Yea my SC score pretty much doubled. But NLs are scarce in my server so it’s hard to gauge their strength here. You think timing DS4 by dismounting mount to proc at the start of SC while having V1 equipped on auto pet be more efficient? Having DS4 proc 4 times instead of 3 when equipping it manually at stage 6

[bleak bay]

Can I ask when, and why, was the change ever made to only throw subis? From what I've seen in the past, we used to be able to throw much nicer and cooler looking stars 😭

[finite mesa]

Happened during explorer remaster about 2 years ago. Used to be a yellowish glowing subi. As for reasoning, nexon hates us probably since that was also when quad star dmg got nerfed from 360% > 280%

[plucky sundial]

In order to get 2mins
You have to use it at the start, and again immediately after cooldown

So there's no timing involved, like pre-V4, where you wanted to turn on Barrage right as DS4 is about to proc for the first time

DS4 I equip it at the start of stage 6 so it's not on cooldown
I want it up asap so I can use it together with V2/V3/V4
Otherwise it's desynced at the start of stage 6

Or so I've found... perhaps at full buff I could get to stage 6 without proc'ing DS4, and so can keep it equipped from the start

[finite mesa]

Probably works better for me as I need a solid 25 -30 secs to get to stage 6, by the time I get to the middle right platform corner I’m just about ready to start my V2,V3 and V4 before DS4 procs the 2nd time with 10+ secs of QS remaining to blast all of my V4. Would frailty curse phy dmg reduction > FD in this case I wonder…?

[fresh widget]

Saw some questions about Mulung etc, here's my recent video on my attempt!
Do hit the like and subscribe to show some love!

https://youtu.be/4jbstrCC0KI?si=XroV601cojRoXvUO

[normal vector]

curious.. did all of u guys reroll ur potentials to HP?

[normal vector]

318k hp!

[plucky sundial]

That's 300k in Mulung.
You can get HP buff in mulung by paying 500 mulung coins. There's a buff selection before you go in.

[plucky sundial]

But yes, a lot of us who did Hdamien last year or early this year rolled HP pots a lot, I think

and it comes with exalting and absolabs, too
Fade's full pink!

[eternal panther]

Highest NL gd I seen

[potent heath]

was your clear time as fast as now even before you got the abso weapon or the abso weapon really made that difference?

That old Panda literally melted upon contact

[slow umbra]

This is the highest dpm i've seen thus far for Lucid

My goodness 2 mins 20 secs clear

[fringe glacier]

Dam

[slow umbra]

NL has completed their redemption arc

[lament mirage]

Isn't that the Night Lord from Rubedo's team?

[normal vector]

Nuts.. what’s his cap

[thick yarrow]

NL is better that NW in V4 ?

[fresh widget]

Escanor, the NL god!

[fresh widget]

no, i believe the weapon did help, i was doing 2.1+ pre abso weapon. Hope this info helps!

[potent heath]

Yea it was maxed there to. I tried my best for all day yesterday trying to get it below 2:1x

[fresh widget]

good luck! hope u get the weapon soon!

[plucky sundial]

Against a stationary target, NW V4 wins

But they face these disadvantages:

1. Requires combo with other buffs to max lines
2. Cooldown is 60s
3. Cast time of 3s

Explanation:

1. Requiring specific timing means against some bosses, they might miss some lines
   This is particularly impactful due to their clones being 80s uptime with 120s cooldown
   If they use V4 right at the start of this
   When V4 goes off cooldown, they have a 20s window to use it before clones run out

2. Using it every 60s means you're more likely to "waste" uptime as you might not be able to use it right as it goes off cooldown
   Plus, in a <60s run, it means they only outputed half their 120s lines
   While we output all of it at the start, so that's another advantage
   They even out every even minute, while we pull ahead every odd minute, with them practically never overtaking us in terms of pure V4 output

3. NL has 0 cast time and is charges-based
   NL's V4 can be pre-activated, so our 2min cooldown is practically always exactly 2mins
   Unlike other classes that need to wait for burst windows
   It does take a couple seconds to offload the lines, but since it's charge-based, we can just use it and let the cooldown roll

NL's advantage with charges-based buff makes our V4 the most practical V4 out there, even though its line count is not the highest.

We can literally put it on pet and forget about it.

Disclaimer tho:
In an ideal situation, NLs line count is on the low side.

And we have a good 10% of our lines being hard to cap even after clone rework.
I have around 4k lines uncapped during my Lucid run (from Assassin's mark, which does ard the same dmg as Hyper ADI)

It can be capped tho
Just kinda hard

We are one of the classes that benefit the most from abso weapon after clone rework

[fresh widget]

https://youtu.be/YW7WcENpglU?si=ttiNuW3yQMjAEKCU

Hi all, those who plan to spend on the lite exaltation package, please reconsider.
watch and judge for yourself.. help spread for awareness

[spice oyster]

Does NL shadow partner have a MDC cap like NW and Mercedes

Or is the 70% just a direct buff which does 70% of ur damage

[potent heath]

I actually got it last night itself too!!! Ahahahha nexon prolly sensed my frustration trynna beat the timing below 2:1x

[normal vector]

Do u think our v4 needs more charges? Or is 75 enough …

[plucky sundial]

Same as other clone classes
Our main attack, Hyper, V1, V4 has clone lines attached from Shadow Partner, and it's hard-capped
But everything is 70%, we don't have lower % clones

[plucky sundial]

It's amazing as it is, imo

We ain't broken, but all things considered, we're good in a decent amount of content imho

[plucky sundial]

Note that V4 originally in KMSM did not have clone lines at all
So we got its buffed version right from the get-go

My only wishlist for NL right now is a tad more skill dmg% on Assassin's Mark