Alrighty thanks for the help
#gtfo-spoiler-chat
violet oasis
mighty pond
You're welcome, and good luck with your clear ✌️
mortal granite
idk why DMR + combat shotgun works so well in A3
forest horizon
Not hel gun?
mortal granite
ye
i got to wave 4 - 5
i died because i was underestimate the wave and the timer
and i can manipulate the spawn
nocturne flax
that picture on media fant art looks like an actual enemy we would fight
glass sundial
Well any weapon set can get you to 4-5. HEL Gun basically only leaves the alarm door as a challenge. And that's if the scans are stupid and take 30 seconds to draw
frail oxide
what is the boss?
nocturne flax
play b2
hexed vapor
@placid oyster R3A2 is a lot like R1B1 where both are easier to solo than the A1s of those rundowns. This isn't very surprising, as a lot of the difficulty in solo comes from the disproportionately high difficulty of alarms low-man compared to other mechanics low-man. Both R1B1 and R3A2 are notably sparse of alarms, which makes them prime solo targets.
glass sundial
If red scan speed was based on percentage of players in the scans instead of individual players, solo play would be much less disproportionate. Same for non-4-man teams in general
hexed vapor
Probably the reason E1 was even realistic solo
The surge alarms weren't taking any longer
knotty sphinx
If they were a lot slower in solo
It would just suck out all the fun in attempting it
glass sundial
Opening the error door sucked
Big red scan.... lol
By the time it opened, you had a varying amount of time between -2 and 10 seconds before the back wave arrived
knotty sphinx
Yeah
mortal granite
i should create a mythbusting videos for these thing
Jinko already did this but he went and play other game
obtuse surge
I've been told that those team scans actually take a little longer when you're on them solo
But never really tested that out
mortal granite
it's longer
knotty sphinx
They do go a little slower in solo
But if it was like the extraction circle slow
That would just kill any enjoyment
lol
obtuse surge
A2's design is questionable at the end
A full squad might not or will barely notice that fog raises during that extraction
Kind of makes you ask if they just wanted to screw with smaller teams
Or somewhat punish teams that don't get to the extraction fast enough
knotty sphinx
I'm sure they are doing a lot of that stuff to mess with solo players xD
obtuse surge
I wasn't sure what path they took and just kind of put mines everywhere in the first room
mortal granite
let's me rewatch my video to clarify
obtuse surge
I don't think they went through half of my mines
mortal granite
they skip the ladder
knotty sphinx
It was about 45% when a lot were coming up on me
mortal granite
and go to the uphill path
obtuse surge
I think I had about 15 mines on each side
xD
and think it lasted till 60% extraction
knotty sphinx
Haha
atomic escarp
You're nice ||got em||
glass sundial
The characters should make grunting noises of varying intensity based on the amount of C-foam they are using with the launcher.
Usage: '?suggestion your idea' in #bot-spam or #gtfo-chat•Today at 6:29 PM```
12 upvotes, no downvotesThe community has spoken
mortal granite
what grunting noises?
gilded dirge
Does anyone know the rough spawn size each wave has once you open the final door in C1 and the alarm starts going off?
gilded dirge
And are they always that spiky enemy?
mortal granite
ye
gilded dirge
And does the HSU spawn in either 17 or 20?
mortal granite
yes
gilded dirge
Ah ok, that makes sense then. So the other 3 zones (either 15, 16 and 17 or 18, 19, and 20) are pointless to go too? I have opened that final door twice now and haven't beaten it, but wanted to make sure I had the right idea.
light totem
The only game you are good at was PD2
gilded dirge
Then find the HSU in either 17 or 20, and run back to extraction to scan?
mortal granite
ye
light totem
Do you english?
glass sundial
Roughly, yes. It uses much more % ammo per shot
Shotgun has 42 rounds, burst has 210 but uses 3 per burst, so only 70 bursts
mortal granite
4 per burst
glass sundial
It has ~~66% more ammo but fires very rapidly
Even less than, my bad
Only 25% more ammo than
But shoots way faster, meaning is uses all of its ammo significantly faster
light totem
@mortal granite Its very much 3
mortal granite
i don't use SS that much anymore
but
i notice when testing BS
it hit 3 shots
and the 4th one fly off
missed
that's why i said it 4 burst
atomic escarp
BS has recoil?
glass sundial
140>137>131
light totem
@mortal granite Big Dumb
glass sundial
Took 3 bursts to kill 1 striker
In other words, 4% ammo to kill 1
Shotgun uses 2% to kill one enemy
Can also hit several other enemies extra
Burst also consumes ammo significantly faster
In other words: shotgun sentry, when placed well, is up to twice as efficient in tool refill usage.
Just took 6 bursts to kill one sleeper
...
mortal granite
the BS stop fire beyond 10meters
light totem
so should SS tbh
mortal granite
i must have block the field of view
light totem
do u even f-ing english
light totem
no
mortal granite
BS hit more than SS
atomic escarp
Chill, not a lot of people playing has english as their first language
glass sundial
I've been sniped by the shotgun sentry
light totem
from 50+ meters
mortal granite
english is my third languege
light totem
rip
glass sundial
R2D1 second alarm door. They placed it at an angle behind the previous security door. I was across the bridge on the far end of the generator room
Still got hit for a bunch of damage
Considering his English is better than native English speakers...
light totem
yeah
mortal granite
they stop shooting when enemy are beyond 25 meters
light totem
^
light totem
thats true... but its projectile range is far more
mortal granite
it's like having a brain but it turn off in the middle of a conversation
hidden flax
i speak 6 diffrent languages:)
light totem
stupidity isnt a languege
hidden flax
Privet moi russkoyazychnyye
atomic escarp
Me too :(
glass sundial
Did I fix my tag?
glass sundial
mortal granite
english
light totem
Hello im retarded (@ the trap)
mortal granite
@glass sundial how many pellets each shot for the SS ?
glass sundial
Haven't really checked. I always run bio/mines
light totem
prob 6-8
mortal granite
to me it's seem like 5
light totem
it might
mortal granite
i've recorded a video and slow it down
could be more than 5
if the pellets like... fuse together
light totem
idk actually... if you want to find out
gilded dirge
You get better usage with bio/mines than with a sentry @glass sundial ?
Mines are useful in many situations, but not over a sentry most of the time in my opinion.
glass sundial
Bio makes it easier to tell where all the enemies are so I can melee them more effectively
Earlier in R3C1 we did the first alarm door and mines soloed the entire wave
1 enemy survived
Only used 4 miens
Depends how you use them
atomic escarp
Mine deployer guide when?
glass sundial
Fair point lol
atomic escarp
Thanks for coming to Drunk's Ted Talk
glass sundial
It's really hard to make a guide for optimal mine placements
vale pecan
👏
glass sundial
They're really weird
light totem
you just have to find what works for yourself
vale pecan
weird to type out
glass sundial
Basically, you want the direction they will run to mostly be a straight line, that way many enemies will build up in a line parallel to the mine laser
atomic escarp
I see
glass sundial
Then, when the front of the pack hits the laser, all of the ones behind it get hit in the edge of the blast radius
That's the summarized version
Player positioning, enemy pathfinding, walls, etc. A lot comes into play in doing it right
It can still be effective around corners since they tend to clump up, so huge multikills can be done. The reason it was only 4 there is because only a few enemies spawn at once. For alarms, much more than that spawn
atomic escarp
anyone come upon a mother in game yet
light totem
ye??
light totem
^
dense inlet
What is the best thing to do after the perma alarm in R3C1? We tried running in but we got swarmed and alerted the scout
we tried holding the first wave, but also swarmed
sage shore
it used to be that you could enter the zone with the brood mother / chargers and lay down your sentry guns with 1 person to cover your rear while you and 2 others search the zone for the HSU before extracting.
Current method is the same except now you need 2 people and 4 Sentry Guns, definetly not the Shotgun sentries. C1 is very resource intensive and the standard sentries give more bang for your buck.
Recommend 4 SMGs, 3 AutoShotguns, 1 Sniper/Hel Rifle
long crest
What is a brood mother
Apparently it's on A1
What is the zone with the brood mother also
So there is a hidden enemy?
sage shore
I am unsure how you got that to spawn on A1. I don't know the name of the zone
long crest
It was posted on reddit
and they said they found it in R3A1
with absolutely no context
I mean in the top left of the image it says R3A1
You're telling me this enemy spawns on C1?
I'm more confused by what you just posted
That doesn't look at all like the Birther
sage shore
Couldn't tell ya, it doesn't look like the standard brood mother however if I had to guess somebody was probably searching through the games files and decided to try and place items and things in the game that aren't available yet. Also I call Birthers, Brood Mothers because it sounds more professional
long crest
It also sounds like it's straight out of Starcraft 2
Guessing this enemy is from E1 if we ever get it
Cat's out of the bag devs
Time to release the level
I'm not logged into reddit if anyone wants to ask them how they found it
Seems they made a new account purely to post that
It almost looks like they spammed a whole bunch of enemies on top of each other
So it's probably nothing I guess
mortal granite
if the mother spawn in A1
that's mean 1 guy have an advance cheat
and cheat those in for laugh and giggle
mortal granite
that's too much giants
hexed vapor
@dense inlet You can rely on mines to delay them. 2 defenders behind and 2 stealthing inside is good, but if you're getting overwhelmed then it's more a problem with you and your group. It's only three chargers at a time, you should be able to gun them fairly easily.
timid gale
just looked like a whole bunch of strikers merged but enlarged and thats it.
mellow creek
yeah they actually spawned all the sleepers that are in the game files but not shown in game
some of the parts can already be found in r2 and r1 files
nocturne flax
maybe they should delete the links since it may contain spoilers for future rundowns
if it is unrelease enemies
orchid egret
In r3b2 rooms 507 and 508, are they both really filled with sleeping titans?
barren badge
yeah
you can just stealth through 507 and grab the turbine, cell and tool refill if its close. you don't need 508
orchid egret
Won't the titans in the room get alerted if you don't kill them and start the room 509 security alarm?
barren badge
that's just a regular scan, not alarmed. even if you start shooting in 509, you should be far enough away from 507 that the titans wont be aggro'd
orchid egret
Thanks will try that out then
safe wren
has anyone done b2 solo and if how did they deal with the first wave?
mossy yoke
@white sandal has
turbid cliff
heard some other people hold the first set of scans and use parkour jutsu on second
so what do we do in this channel anyway
safe wren
i managed to do the scan but had like still 15 after me and low ammo
no refills for me
forest horizon
if you get overrun which you will usually after the first set of scans you have to kite a lot and focus on the scans, not killing
kind of harder to do in this rundown since enemies seem to attack slightly quicker and react quicker too
frigid oyster
Is there ever gonna be an R3E addition? I heard some rumors
Or will it just go straight to R4
craggy flame
All levels were released. There is no R3E level. R4 is next
glass sierra
probably straight to r4
mossy yoke
what Cao sadi
glass sierra
in r2, there was also the warden restriction mechanic
craggy flame
The thing is though, we were shown those levels locked in that Rundown. So we as payers could work toward unlocking it. Now there is no locked map so I think there is no map left
Sure I could be wrong, but there is no real infomration regarding this. I dont think the devs would leave us in the dark like this.
mossy yoke
It's been stated multiple times there are only 7 expeditions in R3. There's nothing more.
devout river
Yay we beat B2
craggy flame
Good job
lost linden
@devout river Good job, I hope it was fun! Now onto C1!
atomic escarp
Congratulations man.
devout river
Hey you are those guys who were really good that helped us
lost linden
Thanks man, that's very kind of you to say Haha
atomic escarp
^^^^ What he said.
lost linden
So humble, brings a tear to my eye :')
atomic escarp
^^^Also what he said.
devout river
Well I am excited for C1 because I heard that it is good
supple rock
d1 is so fucking hard
atomic escarp
Yes
devout river
Is D1 another lab themed level
nocturne flax
yep
devout river
That is nice
I really like the lab environment but they did not use it very much this rundown
The data center environment that is gonna be in R4 according to the roadmap sounds cool too
hexed vapor
That's just a quirk of the environment, though.
Environments like the refinery are very vertical, while the lab is not.
mossy yoke
keep in mind, it takes time to make enough tiles in the environment
we've gone through 3 rundowns already, plus a beta and alpha, and the dig site has the most environment tiles, so it's the most fleshed out
as they spend more time, more lab tiles will be created, fleshing it out more, creating different views, making more unique
atomic escarp
Basically, give this game a few years and we have very unique maps each run. :P
atomic escarp
sooo how many scouts are supposed to be in c1 again?
hexed vapor
Ooh
obtuse surge
some scout spawns seem to be shared between multiple zones
atomic escarp
then we died lol
hexed vapor
This has never been the case for any expedition.
obtuse surge
Ray
Every single time I've had 1 scout in 13
there's 2 in 14
Every time there's 2 in 13
there's 1 in 14
Very consistent
mighty pond
I've seen this to be the case as well now that you mention it
atomic escarp
no reason to be rude
obtuse surge
Did you full clear
hexed vapor
I've had 2 in 13 w/ 2 in 14
severe spade
^
obtuse surge
13 has an out of fog room next to terminal that can have the scout spawn there
atomic escarp
ye i know
atomic escarp
i usually fc everything
obtuse surge
To not have them add up to 3 total
atomic escarp
and 10/11 arent supposed to house more than 1 i think
obtuse surge
10/11 have 2 every once in a while
mighty pond
It's not entirely uncommon to have two in 10/11
hexed vapor
10/11 have 1-2 usually, 1-3 according to you
atomic escarp
around 40 runs now
mighty pond
I've gotten 2 scouts in 10/11 like 5 times in a row
obtuse surge
If it truly doesn't give a fuck about zones
It really shouldn't be this common
to add up to 3
in fact
ye no
it be very difficult to get 3
atomic escarp
ye
but i dunno
something feels off these last 2 days, esp in c1 for me
had a lot of weird shit happening in there
obtuse surge
Same concept of scout spawns being shared seemed to very much be a thing in R2E1
lone fern
^ can confirm @atomic escarp and me did a few runs together
atomic escarp
peace that scout bug from earlier was c1 aswell
obtuse surge
It wasn't rare at all to get a zone with a double scout on E1
With many tries, which I and many others had
mighty pond
Which particular one, I haven't seen the thing you are mentioning
obtuse surge
We surely would've ran into double scouts in multiple zones on the same run
but that was never the case
mighty pond
I may have missed the message/video
atomic escarp
i think it was yesterday? in the media channel
mighty pond
In media, aight lemme go look
atomic escarp
we had a little talk about it aswell lol
severe spade
mighty pond
Ty claw
obtuse surge
Perhaps there's not a certain amount of scouts for those zones
But it surely seems to affect chances
atomic escarp
its kinda weird
atomic escarp
yea, i finally understood you cant kill anything while its on a ladder aswell
except players
mighty pond
Which humors me
mighty pond
It is yes, but it's not impossible to avoid having happen once you experience it once
atomic escarp
++
mighty pond
I do think that it shouldn't exist though
lone fern
yeah it really shouldn't
atomic escarp
will get fixed eventually im sure
mighty pond
I'd assume so yes
hexed vapor
Every zone has a set number of scouts which are either guaranteed to spawn or have a chance to spawn.
These are distributed among slots for scouts in the rooms of the zone.
Some slots are also guaranteed to be filled.
obtuse surge
Can you agree that 14, most the time will just have 1 scout?
atomic escarp
very rare for 14 to have 2
obtuse surge
So with that logic, even if I have 1 scout in 13 that would mean, most those runs would still have 1 scout in 14
atomic escarp
only saw that once
hexed vapor
Yes, with a large sample size
obtuse surge
Are you saying my runs that turned out like that were complete random
mighty pond
I've had 14 have two scouts 4 times, I must be unlucky as fuck lol
obtuse surge
But I and many other people have noticed this same thing
Which makes it an ever bigger coincidence
Becomes a bit hard to believe
atomic escarp
also the thing you said ray, id like some confirmation on that
hexed vapor
If 14 has two scouts, it is much more likely that 13 will have 1 scout than have 2 or 3, because 2 or 3 is unlikely prior.
light totem
or 5
atomic escarp
^
light totem
it sucks
mighty pond
Just add scouts to every zone in C1 
obtuse surge
If those zones aren't connected
light totem
^
obtuse surge
that wouldn't be true
atomic escarp
give us prenerf r2c1 back
obtuse surge
Your chances stay the exact same is the point you were making
hexed vapor
@atomic escarp Which thing I said?
obtuse surge
?
hexed vapor
1 scout is more likely than 2 or 3 scouts
atomic escarp
Every zone has a set number of scouts which are either guaranteed to spawn or have a chance to spawn.
this
obtuse surge
13 has 2 scouts in most my runs
hexed vapor
Therefore, if there are 2 scouts in 14, then it is more likely here is 1 scout in 13
obtuse surge
I am so confused
light totem
rip
obtuse surge
You're pointing out that zones and scout spawns aren't connected
light totem
same
obtuse surge
but then say 2 in 14 would make more sense for 1 in 13
which completely contradicts your point
If they aren't shared
Nothing is supposed to change
see it as a coinflip
getting heads 10 times in a row doesn't mean your chance to get tails increases
hexed vapor
Nothing does change
light totem
there isnt set spawn
hexed vapor
which is why you should take a statistics course.
obtuse surge
Most runs have 2 in 13
light totem
its rng between the zone, plus the rng for number of scouts
obtuse surge
so if it's not connected
light totem
^ true
obtuse surge
most runs where 14 has 2, should still have 2 in 13
I don't think you understand how chances worek
light totem
then you have the terrible rng of the two spawning with the other set of two in 14
it isnt always in 13... 13 can have none
atomic escarp
most runs i did of c1 had 1 in 10/11 each, 2 in 13 and 1 in 14
- 1 in 20/17
obtuse surge
In fact, if it's not connected... If you were to take all runs where 14 had 1 and then split them showing you the amount of runs where 13 had 1 and the amount of runs where it had 2
hidden flax
ive had 4 in 13
obtuse surge
When doing the exact same thing for runs where 14 had 2
You should, in the grand scheme of things, have the same numbers
atomic escarp
its wild to think it can have such a wide range
light totem
oh... i mean 14 usually wont have any... 13 can spawn at most 5 from what ive seen
obtuse surge
14 has one on most of my runs
light totem
same
obtuse surge
13 has never had 5
light totem
ive seen it have 3 tho
obtuse surge
what are you talking about
light totem
and @obtuse surge you are wrong
atomic escarp
ive seen 5 in 13 aswell
light totem
ive had 13 with 1-5
atomic escarp
though that was a vid someone sent me
obtuse surge
did you have any scouts at all in 10/11 on that run
obtuse surge
light totem
1 is guaranteed in 10/11 and 17/20
light totem
13 is really weird with rng... but i think its because 13/14 are not real separate zones according to the engine
obtuse surge
it would make sense that 5 is possible in there
would just mean all those non static spawns were in 13
light totem
yeah
obtuse surge
I don't know
light totem
but enemies were non-existent when I had 5
obtuse surge
I used to think scouts were indeed just random per zone with some being guaranteed
light totem
it one of those 1/1000000 chance runs
obtuse surge
But playing more and more seems to contradict that
while it should in theory be the opposite way
light totem
ive had a no scout 13/14 run tho... its weird
hexed vapor
Yet C1 is the only exception you defend.
light totem
what?
hexed vapor
Talking to Wesley
obtuse surge
Because in this rundown
light totem
oh
hexed vapor
There should still be other examples in R1, R2, A2, or B1.
obtuse surge
Which is when I didn't pay attention to that at all
light totem
all have guaranteed spawns.... but it is cross zone
hexed vapor
If you did you'd see there have been no cross-zone scouts.
in the history of the game
obtuse surge
I think many people that played E1 can confirm commonly getting one zone with a double scout
tiny quail
R2E1 was the first time we saw cross-zone scout spawns
obtuse surge
It would be very fucking insane that literally no one reported a run where they had a double scout twice
hexed vapor
Which zones specifically?
light totem
@hexed vapor meaning there is one always in the map but it can be in any of X amounts of zones
obtuse surge
A very simple explanation would be that there never seemed to be more than 3 scouts
in the zones behind the error door
hexed vapor
Because more than 3 is rare?
obtuse surge
No ray
hexed vapor
Also, if you got 3 early on, you were pretty doomed
obtuse surge
If the chance isn't affected by previous chances
Getting a double twice wouldn't be that rare
hexed vapor
TAKE A STATISTICS COURSE
light totem
u need to @hexed vapor
tiny quail
bruh
obtuse surge
It would be about double as rare
hexed vapor
The chance of 3 scouts in 595 and 3 scouts in 593 in areas you happen to visit is very very unlikely
obtuse surge
Even people who full cleared
hexed vapor
Because you need 5-6 independent roles to line up
hexed vapor
Woow, real big coincidence there.
hexed vapor
So what do you think the chance of any scout spawning in those zones are?
vale pecan
once
neko can confirm
we double sniped two and another at the back of room alerted
cause we thought there were only two
we are sure we got different scouts btw
hexed vapor
Because this isn't hard to calculate
obtuse surge
Simple explanation, if there was a 50% chance for zone 1 to have 2 scouts and a 50% chance for it to have 1 scout
obtuse surge
zone 2 having the exact same chances
subtle vault
da fuck is going on
vale pecan
but i usually get 0-1
obtuse surge
25% of runs will have 4 scouts
vale pecan
that was a 1 out of 25 play there for scout numbers
hexed vapor
It's probably closer to 20% per scout
vale pecan
so there is still a chance of 2+ scouts
light totem
it more complex than a 50% spawn per zone tho, it also has other enemies that are added into the equation, then persuaded by other areas/zones that correlate with that zone, etc.
obtuse surge
I literally used big numbers
light totem
ik
hexed vapor
@light totem If you are calculating the chance that you get 3 scouts in 595 and 3 scouts in 593, this will be the conjunction of those two probabilities
hexed vapor
Which is clearly very low
vale pecan
im just saying if you think its impossible that there can be three scouts in zone 13
hexed vapor
compared to just getting a lot of scouts in some places
vale pecan
you are false
light totem
im talking about the fixed % rate compared to a fluctuating rate, @obtuse surge, the 50 was an exaple... ik
subtle vault
damn
tiny quail
Which zones specifically?
@hexed vapor 6 total roaming scouts: 3 shared between 596/598/599/586 and 3 shared between 595/594/593. 2 static spawns in both 597 and 600
hexed vapor
Well that's really easy to falsify, because you can have less than 3 scouts in the error zones and less than 3 scouts in the spawn+loot rooms
tiny quail
potentials ray
hexed vapor
Which is why I think this is utter horseshit, you can make up any arbitrary rules to try to fit some dumb ass probability between any collection of zones, which is unfalsifiable.
The fact of the matter is that all zones with high scout potentials all having high scouts in a single game is very low
obtuse surge
yes but if they aren't connected
the chance of those extra zones having them high doesn't decrease either
Yes it be more rare
But it's incredibly weird that no one ever saw that happen and said something about it
hexed vapor
Which is indistinguishable from post-hoc nonsense like "these scouts are map-wide, but don't always spawn"
obtuse surge
Well because of how statistics work
We can't ever prove we're right
Just like you can't really prove us wrong
It's just speculation
hidden flax
@hexed vapor im not sure what imaginary world you live in but in this world starts dont lie and yes ive had a statistics course
obtuse surge
Your theory of them not being connected in any way at all seems very hard to believe
light totem
take A2 from example then @hexed vapor , there will be one guaranteed spawn. it will be between zones 126,128, and 129. maybe not one in each zone... but there will always be at least one
hexed vapor
If there were multi-zone scouts, we should expect to see that low rolls (where all zones in a set are at minimal scouts) should not be observed
However, they are observed
so there's no real evidence for your hot garbage
hidden flax
bruh
atomic escarp
@hexed vapor maybe you should be the one taking a statistics course 🤔
hexed vapor
If you played E1 a million times you would eventually get massive spawns
tiny quail
if you ran R2E1 enough it becomes very clear
wind glade
bruh, what are you saying?
hidden flax
yes got 9 clears 🙂
hexed vapor
@light totem That's not true either, which is why I consider this line of reasoning to be hot garbage
vale pecan
there can be guaranteed spawns (see R2A1, R2B2) and random spawns (see R2C1)
hexed vapor
You can have 0 scouts.
vale pecan
not sure about the others
hexed vapor
in the entire of A2
vale pecan
but yeah
hexed vapor
Or you can have 4
obtuse surge
i mean
mighty pond
I can verify Ray's statement of 0 scouts
hexed vapor
There is not always 1, I full clear A2 every time
mighty pond
He and I had a run where we full cleared A2 with no scouts
hexed vapor
If you want to prove what you beleive
light totem
then you missed a room...
obtuse surge
doesn't mean each level would have to be that way
hexed vapor
You need to show statistical significance
mortal granite
A2 i have 0 scout
obtuse surge
Well
mortal granite
i clear every single room in A2
obtuse surge
I can't show that
atomic escarp
neko i can vouch for that aswell though
obtuse surge
Because, you keep telling me about following a statistic course
atomic escarp
also had a 0 scout fully cleared a2
hidden flax
to stop this shit show lets look at the game codes
obtuse surge
and I think I'm at least smart enough to know that my stats are nothing compared to the totals
So
I can't really do that chief
hexed vapor
Show that you could not reasonably clear {A, B, ..., C} zones and expect not to have seen a high number of scouts at least once
Because if they're all 20% rolls you're asking for very unlikely odds.
vale pecan
can we just
hidden flax
stop fixing the procent rate
vale pecan
not argue
it seems like a few people here arent really listening to each side
and its just pointless right now
this is just kinda pointless
mighty pond
It has sort of devolved into a battle of stating each other's opinions at this point
vale pecan
^
obtuse surge
Not rly
hidden flax
indeed lets be civil
hexed vapor
The simplest explanation is better.
Multi-zone scouts are convoluted and require arbitrary groupings of zones based on personal whims only to get the same probabilities if each zone were independent.
So, the multi-zone model should be discarded.
obtuse surge
We're having an argument and you guys are coming in acting as if you're a mod that has to controll the server or something
If you're not interested in this argument you could just not say anything here
mighty pond
Did I ever do something like that though?
I've been contributing to the conversation at hand
obtuse surge
Yes
hidden flax
now we have gone off topic
obtuse surge
Us not agreeing
hidden flax
🙂
obtuse surge
Doesn't mean the whole conversation become pointless and has to be halted
hexed vapor
I would only accept the multi-zone model if there were clear evidence of an upper-bound (which there is not, it would require a very large sample size) or a lower-bound (which has been falsified repeatedly).
mighty pond
And by me saying you disagree is me moderating?
atomic escarp
ray your theory doesnt have any evidence aswell though
obtuse surge
I wasn't really aiming at you
atomic escarp
so...
hexed vapor
It's simpler, Amaira
hidden flax
how can you declare it false
mighty pond
Fair enough, I took it as such. My apologies Wes
hexed vapor
Which means it ought to be prefered
atomic escarp
just dont try to force your opinion on all of us
lone fern
@hexed vapor so to prove your point we would basically need the game's source code welp
obtuse surge
To prove any point at all
atomic escarp
and you cant just say
hexed vapor
Especially when it clearly applies to more levels, since multi-zone only applies to levels that are very complicated in terms of scout spawns.
obtuse surge
Because chances are chances
hexed vapor
R2D1, for example, clearly has no upper-bound.
atomic escarp
"you're wrong, cuz you think differently than me"
cuz thats pretty much what you've been doing this entire time
hexed vapor
Your position is unreasonable
It's baseless speculation rather than a useful model for every other level.
hexed vapor
Mmmmmm, just speculation that R2D2 has 5-7 scouts in 195.
Real fuckin' speculative.
If multi-zone applies, it will apply to 611 and 613 in R2D1, so I'd like your model for that as well.
light totem
@willow coral Any insight to the spawn rate of scouts?
atomic escarp
please enlighten us
tiny quail
why would it just automatically apply to other expeditions?
hexed vapor
Because if we're sorting between the two models
mossy yoke
spawn rate of scouts where?
hexed vapor
We should presumably pick the one that has more evidence for it
mossy yoke
in what scenario?
light totem
in general
tiny quail
there is clearly both that exist.
lone fern
R3C1 and in general
tiny quail
in my experience
light totem
started with C1 sometimes spawning 5 in zone 13
hexed vapor
There's not clearly both, because multi-zone has no evidence for it while it explains the same material .
mossy yoke
scouts have a specific space they need in order for them to spawn somewhere
hexed vapor
Provide evidence for an upper or lower bound
mossy yoke
so generally there is a set amount
hexed vapor
Especially considering that no other enemies use multi-zone spawn mechanics.
tiny quail
I mean... I don't record the dozens and dozens of E1 runs I did just to evaluate scout spawn potentials....
light totem
thats because all other enemies, with the exception of the mother and chargers, can spawn anywhere @hexed vapor
mossy yoke
scouts need at least x space in order to spawn in an area
obtuse surge
that's incredibly vague
hexed vapor
Neither do I, and I never saw anything noteworthy. 36 is also not a very big sample size considering the chance of 4-7 scouts in the error zones is very close to 1%
lone fern
@mossy yoke can you narrow down x for us a bit pls?
obtuse surge
what we want to know is, if having a lower amount of scouts in a certain zone would cause the chance of scouts in another zone to be higher
mossy yoke
sorry i can't
mortal granite
big enough area
glass sierra
i mean you can generally guess
light totem
enemy cap spawn per room prob
glass sierra
look at the size of the rooms are in
hexed vapor
@tiny quail It's also not at all clear that whatever you consider your experience to be is indicative of a lower or upper bound
light totem
^ obv
wintry terrace
The limit does not exist
left axle
you are giving me calculus ptsd stop
light totem
hrmm
left axle
no more limits
atomic escarp
There have been shared scouts spawns before
light totem
same @left axle
hexed vapor
@atomic escarp Where?
atomic escarp
R2E1
hexed vapor
Omfg
light totem
rip
hexed vapor
We just talked about this
hexed vapor
There is no evidence of a lower or upper bound in E1
light totem
42
obtuse surge
no ally it's just a coincidence and you don't understand statistics owo
atomic escarp
what do you mean by lower or upper bound?
hexed vapor
That there is a map-wide or multi-zone guarantee or limit of scouts in variable zones.
light totem
and y is the other limit
mossy yoke
as said, in order for a scout to spawn, they need at least x area. that means that when a map is built, the devs will set a certain area to have that much space so that a scout spawns. it's a deliberate design choice.
obtuse surge
That's still so vague but in my mind it would seem to make sense that if that's the case, if a scout can't spawn in zone x because no space for some reason, the game would try to spawn it in a different zone
Where it does happen to have that space
atomic escarp
but if it spawns at all is still rng it seems
wintry terrace
Scouts are sentient change my mind
atomic escarp
seeing as we can have a different amount still
light totem
rip
obtuse surge
well
hexed vapor
But D0c has just specified that the scout spawns are based on space and not an overhead scout placement.
That's what he just said
obtuse surge
perhaps it's possible that the scout it attempts to spawn, never has enough space to be there
hexed vapor
Which would mean any multi-zone mechanics are impossible
mossy yoke
like the min space is so they can't just spawn in a tiny hallway for example
feral token
the only gun that is good is the hammer
light totem
^^^^
buoyant sentinel
hammer best gun
hidden flax
@atomic escarp you deserv the plate as well 🙂
tiny quail
Not sure how what D0c said has anything to zones - he was talking about space within an area.
hidden flax
not just the fork and knife but the plate as well
mortal granite
i think A2 suppose to have more scouts
light totem
certain room do not have enough 'room' to spawn a scout but have a enemy spawn cap that would allow it
hexed vapor
@mossy yoke We're talking about how many scouts spawn in particular zones, not where they spawn. Which are you talking about?
mossy yoke
everything...
They need at least x space to spawn, which prevents them from spawning in hallways
just because they have space, doesn't mean they will spawn, scouts are essentially placed in certain areas
light totem
this is known
hidden flax
yes we know this doc
hexed vapor
But which areas? Are they placed in zones, set of zones, or particular rooms/areas?
hidden flax
bruh
mossy yoke
scouts are essentially placed in certain areas
hexed vapor
Ah, you meant that literally
light totem
@mossy yoke For example can scouts have a spawn that can vary between 3 zones?
hexed vapor
That couldn't be right, though?
Some zones have seemingly specific bounds despite multiple rooms
434 in A3 has exactly one scout all the time?
feral token
some scout spawns might be the same in every run some might not
hexed vapor
Even if there's two placed in A and B, there is overarching code to control it it seems?
I know.
hidden flax
yes that is obvious
mossy yoke
2 can sometimes spawn in an area, but is rare
hexed vapor
on A3?
obtuse surge
and that area could totally be spread out between multiple zones 
hidden flax
ive had 2 on a3
hexed vapor
@hidden flax Oh?
hidden flax
yes
light totem
it is possible, after opening the door on 4th wave
hidden flax
had it happen twice
light totem
one thru the hole and one in the hallway
hexed vapor
Yes, I asked him if it was multiple zones, zones, or areas/rooms, and he replied by requoting his use of "area," suggesting he was being literal
mossy yoke
area = 1 room
hexed vapor
How are zones like 392 handled, then?
obtuse surge
how does that even help then
hexed vapor
Exactly 2 scouts every run so far, but looks to be a zone-wide control and not based on the rooms?
obtuse surge
It makes no sense that it's per room
And not connected at all
Because that would mean you'd be able to get doubles on like B2's fog zone too
hexed vapor
Same for R2B2. If it's not a zone control, then how come there are always the same number of scouts in 268 and 269 regardless of distribution between rooms?
tiny quail
ye, that doesn't add up 
obtuse surge
It definitely has a connection per zone
light totem
because there are fixed scout spawns, like R3A1's 252 and 253
mortal granite
isn't those always spawned?
i'm sorry if i being a dum dum again
just woke up to this
obtuse surge
yes
those A1 scouts make sense with what D0c said
but many others don't
there has to be more to it
light totem
fixed will always spawn in that exact room
mortal granite
with C1 stat
light totem
its much more variable then any of us can theorize
mortal granite
there will be 5 scouts share in these zone to my knowledge
10 - 11 - 13 - 14
always 5 scouts
hexed vapor
...
mortal granite
ok
light totem
its not true, we discussed this earlier
there can be a max of 5 in zone 13
with 1 still in 10/11
hexed vapor
You literally listed 4 zones that never have 0 scouts and boldly proclaimed the fact that you happen to have never gotten a low roll as evidence of multi-zone mechanics.
light totem
not in 10/11
obtuse surge
ok ray
light totem
10/11 will always have one
light totem
rarely having 2
hexed vapor
I only need upper/lower bounds for particular zones.
hexed vapor
I'm not the one claiming there's limits on the entire map
obtuse surge
if those zones aren't connected
hexed vapor
So let me propose titan multi-zone mechanics.
There's a limit to how many titans can be on the map, and a map-wide potential for titans to spawn
hexed vapor
Ahuh...
@obtuse surge So how would you refute that?
I doubt you've seen more than, say, ~10 titans across zones 10, 11, and 12.
obtuse surge
are you talking about the titan stuff or about what alpha said
light totem
@obtuse surge I dont think you even argued about that at all, did you?
obtuse surge
i have never payed attention to those titans
Therefor likely wouldn't rly comment on it
Sounds possible
How would you prove it?
Well just like the scout multi zones thing you pretty much can't prove it
It's pretty much a maybe until someone proves you wrong
hexed vapor
So then how should we a pick a model?
Which one should we speak in terms of, use to make predictions, etc.?
atomic escarp
i'd just drop this whole model thing?
obtuse surge
And for something that seems to matter in a run
Such as scouts
It becomes more interesting to do so
So it makes sense for one to pay attention to it
Use what they've noticed to make assumptions
atomic escarp
and doc basically told us how it works already?
hexed vapor
So if I need to make important decisions, which model should I use?
tiny quail
Why does there need to be a model?
atomic escarp
or are you including other things aswell now?
hexed vapor
No, he didn't, he only gave very partial information that's clearly false in some circumstances.
tiny quail
I think that’s exactly what the game is trying to move away from - Predictability
hexed vapor
Wesley literally agreed that D0c's explanation is obviously incomplete
atomic escarp
¯_(ツ)_/¯
lone fern
@hexed vapor so you basically sayin now that Doc gave us false information?
hexed vapor
D0c explained per-area mechanisms, but there are clearly some zone-wide mechanics
obtuse surge
Not necessarily wrong just incomplete
tiny quail
D0c gave us an honest answer, it is just too vague to make a generalization from.
hexed vapor
No, I said that he gave us a very small tidbit that doesn't tell us much
light totem
^
lone fern
Yeah he probably can't tell more due to an NDA or some sort like that
atomic escarp
or they simply dont want us to know
light totem
or both?
hexed vapor
@tiny quail If you're going to document all of the scouts you can encounter, you need a specific model your documentation will use.
light totem
we probably should, list zone number and exact room with # of scouts spawned
mortal granite
just be simple
hexed vapor
I currently just list zones, range for number of scouts observed, and rooms they've been observed in.
light totem
we can probably get a general number for the stats for spawn rates if we all did this
tiny quail
Fair enough, I just think part of what the devs want is for us to not be able to document or predict those spawns. At least not in every expedition.
Which is why there is disagreement on this at all.
hexed vapor
W/e, I'm the only person I know besides Kenny that actually writes them down per zone.
tiny quail
Yes, I do most all of my runs with Kenny during this data collection.
obtuse surge
kenny seems to believe in a shared scouts model too
tiny quail
ye
obtuse surge
👀
tiny quail
We found our evidence first through experience in R2E1. Not sure on where he stood prior to that.
hexed vapor
Full clears of the level found that there was no guarantee of scouts between 20/21 and 22/23.
And again, if there were multi-zone mechanics we should have found at least one case where you were guaranteed a variable scout among a set of zones with no variance for more ore less, but this has never been found.
hexed vapor
595 and 594 have both had 0 on some of my runs, and we failed to encounter more than 1 scout in 593 those same runs.
hexed vapor
You're also probably not full clearing, which you would need to do.
tiny quail
We did multiple runs for full clears searching for scouts.
Seemed quite consistent.
Obviously E1 isn’t the easiest to full clear though lol
light totem
no
hexed vapor
Your sample size is abysmal, I figure
light totem
not at all
tiny quail
The only way ray will be satisfied is if he datamines the info apparently smh
hexed vapor
I mean, your one example of your beliefs is in three zones that are notoriously hard to explore
Prove it in any other set of zones.
Or is it just magical that levels like A2 don't obey the same rules?
tiny quail
We’re talking about an E tier expedition vs. A tier..... Yes, they likely do not obey the same rules.
obtuse surge
I mean, you clearly believe that rooms within a zone have a connection
hexed vapor
A2 is an example
obtuse surge
B2 fog zone consistent 1 scout in any of the rooms of that zone
Would it be that crazy to do the same thing but spread across multiple zones
hexed vapor
But mechanics already obey zone-specific rules
The first zone of every A1 has always had exactly 1 room with enemies
tiny quail
Why wouldn't they implement new mechanics on tougher expeditions?
Best way to throw off good players
hexed vapor
@tiny quail You could include R1B2, R2C1, R3A2, R3B1, and R3C1.
Doesn't matter whether it's possible, it matters if it's plausible.
Making one exception to the rules based on a tiny sample size isn't justified.
tiny quail
Hundreds of hours and dozens and dozens of attempts? hmm
Not sure what else I can do to please you ray xD
hexed vapor
If you don't full clear, it's not a result.
And you didn't complain when I suggested you had a small sample size the first time, so fuck off.
You're making exceptions for the sake of your conclusion.
subtle vault
god damn
obtuse surge
It should be much easier to prove us wrong
Rather than us proving that we're right
R3C1 for example
Get a run that doesn't have a total of 5 scouts in the zones alpha talked about
And you proved him wrong
Sure, 5 can be the average and therefor what you'll have most time
hexed vapor
To prove you wrong would require 100 attempts minimum for most of the outrageous claims, and it wouldn't be hard to move the goalposts to "well, the range for this set of zones is a bit bigger."
obtuse surge
But spread across those 4 zones there's a ton of different combinations
That aren't rare at all if the multi zone theory isn't a thing at all
tiny quail
Is it outrageous to suggest cross-zone spawning?
What about the spawning locations of pdecs, ID's, keys? those have all proven to be cross-zone I don't see any reason it wouldn't pertain to enemies as well. And have obviously experienced it plenty through my runs
hexed vapor
I haven't seen much evidence in favor of PDECs or IDs using cross-zone mechanics, so I would like those
tiny quail
R2C2?
hexed vapor
None I'm aware of besides a cap of 3
obtuse surge
well that's funny
because you could get 4 in a zone
you could also have zones with 0
hexed vapor
Only if you mistype the list.
obtuse surge
118 for example would occasionally have 0 ids and just the key
hexed vapor
I never disagreed with 0
hexed vapor
And only require two zones be visited? No.
obtuse surge
my 0 run matched the 4 run
so no
113 had 4
118 had 0
the other 2 zones were 3 & 2
hexed vapor
And you collected every ID in 113?
hexed vapor
117 doesn't count, you should open it anyway