#gtfo-lore
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hey can someone send a pic of the B1 log
someone said they found it earlier
warden can u send me the audio for D1 and C1, i havent recorded those
its in the slide
cant view it lol]
same
thanks
thanks ๐
can I join you warden
yo ill join to
thanks if you need me to help with a1 I do that
wait are u looking
the research lore
@lilac island
oh i have a definition
that explains the plants
hold on
In contrast with the saprotrophic fungi, parasitic fungi attack living organisms, penetrate their outer defenses, invade them, and obtain nourishment from living cytoplasm, thereby causing disease and sometimes death of the host. Most pathogenic (disease-causing) fungi are parasites of plants
they most likely started with plants and then moved on to human subjects
oh ok, I have pic of 90% of the tablets
oh i only got a couple D1 pics, can u send me a few warden?
here Ill try to send all the a1 pics
sweet
ok I have 63 screan shot to show
put them in a folder
there may be duplicates
so you're saying you're gonna send D pics?
lmaoo
2/63
BRUH
karma
1/63
k
alright cool
how would u like them
give to u
because discord is say it doesn't support the folder
can u dm your guys email
just ship me a copy of the files in a usb ||joking||
print out each photo individually and send them to me via pigeon
I'm surprised there's resistance stuff in the logs
like join the resistance in the audio logs
i think these people are like catching on to whats happening in the facility
people are probably going missing and their deaths are being covered up
there are so many HSUs, itd have to be some people from the outside world
they are probably resisting being lied to, and like the radio name, are uncovering the truth
yay
yay
here are links to google files of the screen shots of all the A1 research screens https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1vq3dV4ppMYyDVyIUyz4Z7z9AENhcv8AK
shit dude i was watching a video about pizza and totally forgot to join
lmao
oh yeah no way that was an earthquake
something else caused it
something huge o-o
an earthquake just seems to, straightforward for a game like this
the highest recorded earthquake was a 9.4-9.6 in chile
so it is still technically an earth quake unless it goes over ten
what i mean is that it wasnt actually a natural earthquake
and the fact that there was no seismic activity beforehand
seems very unlikely it was just an earthquake
the Yucatan peninsula mentioned in the log is right in line with two tectonic plates, so a large impact or explosion could have lead to a shift.
how do u guys exactly find tha tablets and is the audio logs the terminals that are talking?
what are your thoughts on the momma's
the moms are hot
are there logs in d1
Quick thought here. Maybe not exactly lore related but maybe it pertains to the game. In the original trailer, the one dude talks about how he wakes up from a dream, says its the same people every time, he recognizes them etc. But this game has a heavy emphasis on the parts of the brain like after you inject to get to the rundown. And how it says cortex interface esablished (paraphrasing) What if this is all a simulation? And that could explain multiple runs with dying while still keeping a coherent storyline.
that we know of
Just an idea I had
scredit, i think warden transmits other people memories into our ones
that way we know what to do each time and dont go in blind and die
That makes sense too because of the little bits of script we get to start off the mission. Where it reads as other prisoners.
guys I think I know why the shaft has the melt look like something broke out from benth
A gaint sleeper beast mentioned in r2b1
splash text
read it
yay I think a larger verison np
no
we were causeing it to come to use
us
from b2
which I think a even larger on burst out of the ground causing the shaft
earthquake at facility
no it was something bigger gaints
because the warden know we can kill them
because of the begain of b2
he know we can deal with gaints
yay I am saying we aren't distracting giants
I am say were distracting something worse
and big and bad
like maybe a f ton of charger
s
also rember the large bio mass from round 1
c1
yay
nvm
yay
wait the rundown 2 logs together say they have a mining mission
wait but if were here
at chicxulub
then how are we get all the research things if this was just a mining expedition
but they using the mining as a cover up for there Garganta so shouldn't there not be any lab stuff
right [r] warden
yay but these are government agencies so there allowed every were
so you know the email from R2 right
there check for anything
the compiled logs
yay
and how in the A1 audio log it says the truth has an inside source
what if thats McCallister
because the email stated McCallister was getting a little nosy
and that email was made approx a month after the audio file
maybe
also @lilac island your right
but what I think is that
they were diging a new facility
Hello all, could someone give me a quick rundown of the basic lore without any spoilers?
that is imposable
My friend and I bought the game today and played for a few hours but didnt get much lore
Ah gotcha okay
warden sends prisoners into complex to complete objections in order to gain info
basic as can be
objectives**
But are we on Earth? Or elsewhere?
earth
Interesting thank you
year is 2050 or later
well continuing [r] warden are conversion
an even better one for this rundown would be
baby is annoying as hell and we use it as a ||telephone||
And is this sort of a way out of prison for the prisoners? Completing the objectives?
nope
Oh interesting
they are just forced to do it ๐
The game is just so amazing
So like violent criminals and what not?
they probably live in good conditions seeing as they are all fit and well taken care of
HSU means high security unit?
Ah I see
so like their bodies are preserved
So it's a mineshaft?
Where did all of the underground facilities come from?
I get the impression that the gas that infected us while we were playing has caused the mutants or aliens or whatever.
they started running tests on the humans in order to create a sleeper i think
cuz uhhh
For war?
How hard is 2 player? To complete the maps?
We failed about a half a dozen times, got really close I think on the last go
Well the first few attempts
We decided not to look anything up
And just went in blastin
Gotcha okay
Help for the baddies or for puzzles?
especially the end was not expected
They seem like good devs
i was shaking for the rest of the match after what they did
all of us were scared shitless lmao
Thanks
ooooh cool
thanks btw
also i have a theory on the titans
so you know in the syringe log for the yellow one it says it increases strength for abt 8 seconds but has some symptoms afterwards
what if they used them on the sleepers
creating a much more powerful one
it would explain why the head stays the same size but all the muscles are expanded
I think that would be too many titans for them to create, seems more to me like the sleepers are highly specialized colony organisms which benefit from castes and division of labor.
Similar to how some ants have majors and supermajors.
@lilac island you're missing a log >.<
Thanks for the logs <3
Anyone here read the book Annihilation?
The enemies reminded me of that. The fungal overtones, the glowing, the hatred of the light, living deep underground.
Can we assume that the Complex (or Garganta ?) construction began sometimes after september 2049 since they attached blueprints that I assume are related to the facility (D1 log). And regarding the dates on logs, can we assume that the flood they mention in R2's mail is related to the earthquake we found in B1 ?
A 9.8 on Richter scale? Good grief, what the hell happened down there?
I feel like that's where the holes came from...
My guess it is related to the dig site, they used explosives to open a cavity before creating the complex.
So apparently the mystery of what made the rundown shafts is a pretty big deal if it's serious enough to cause a massive earthquake.
I seriously doubt mining explosives are going to cause an earthquake.
I agree with that, the expeditions are hundred of meters down there. An industrial explosion big enough to cause an earthquake this big would be enourmous.
Yeah, that log entry, which was a news report, said the quake was felt all the way over in Dallas.
Reading the logs in that Google Docs file was quite interesting.
@solar nova The earthquake is listed to have occurred in 2049 - where as the planned dig was expected to start at 2050. What if the Earthquake was what allowed the company access to Yucatan.
Yucatan is home to many wonders and the great yucatan bank many energy companies dream of today, is not accessible due to the fear of what the drilling might do to the natural environment. If a natural disaster were to occur, splitting open a great rift in the Peninsuela and ruining the landscape, perhaps many of those ethical bounderies were removed in the aftermath of the devastation.
The logs refer to a 'great chasm' - and as it is the gulf of mexico, this could help explain why another site was established at 'Garganta' (at Punta Sur). Might, I say might, be hints to the width of the chasm.
If so, the disaster would more likely to have been natural in origin (nature is scary) - and perhaps revealed something of which the company took interest in.
The Iridium may be strong indicators as to how deep the chasm went. Researchers today use Iridium as a tracer to track pre-historic earth, the santonian age especially since the impact at Chuxilub caused an influx of Iridium traces on a global scale - traces of which are found in earth samples at depths of which the Santonian age samples would have sunk to - which the chasm became a gateway to.
Ah, so the dates are pre-complex?
That would actually make a lot of sense to explain Santonian's motivations.
Hey fish. What did you think about the C1 description cypher
G?6IA64E65 86@8C2A9:42= 52E2 >:D>2E49[2C62 566>65 F?DE23=6] turns into unexpected geographical data mismatch,area deemed unstable.
I can take a shot at it!
First the mission description:
"DNA sample retrieved during ALPHA protocol corrupted. Needed for Neural Imprint. Prisoners sent on retrieval."
Alpha protocol - first operation has been corrupted and is needed for Neural imprint of he Neonate.
There is something they are hoping to 'imprint neurally' onto the Neonate and the DNA the prisoners are sent to retrieve have a connection to this task.
upon unexpected geographical data, it means it does not match the prior expected 'geographical measurements'
something has been moved or shifted with no data pattern to calculate its current state or its pattern of potential movement
- It could be believed to be on the verge of collapse.
- It could be on the verge of collapse.
- It could be believed unstable for other reasons.
What is the alpha protocol?
It reads like its a different mission but clearly in C1 you are getting genetic material, not before
Unless the grammer is just fucked
I do not know. By going by name - Alpha means primary - initial - first
Protocol - terms of conduct and terms of operation
proceedure in short
so what It may tell us, without deriving details of its conduct or operation, is that Alpha Protocol may have been the 'first operation'
The first warden mission?
Good question ๐ค
People been saying C1 is heavily influenced by the alpha map
Not sure if the alpha is Canon or not though.
Damn.. That would be a good callback then!
Oof...Alpha versions are often deemed 'unstable'
do you think the developers might have snuck a joke in there? x'D
Wait it says prisoners sent for retrieval of a DNA sample during an operation called the alpha protocol that was already retrieved? Wtf?
So confusing
Unless the alpha protocol part is just lore and the corrupted DNA makes it useless
So we need a replacement
Alpha protocol can be pMother samples in R2
That iS genetic material, if it is plasmids we are talking about
Potentially to both. Well, I have an idea that might be, might not be worth looking into. When starting R3C1 - is it the same HSU at the start of every mission or does the number differ?
If so, can the identity of the HSU contents be learned?
and, the crazy notion, would that match with the name of the GTFO alpha?
Ah, figures. Damn.. does not prove and does not disprove anything then
yep. I know this would probably be a mismatch. But imagine if the name inside the HSU in R3C1 matches that of the GTFO alpha mission
and was the same object of retrieval
I kinda doubt it
I think its more likely C1 is literally "yeah you guys got a fucked up sample before now get another one pronto" -warden
The map itself is definitely a call back though
potentally. Could have been the mother samples though as NISI suggested. if they were primed for extraction and remained in the dig, outside an HSU or without sufficient shielding - corruption could have occurred
The exact origin of the alpha protocol samples isn't really important regardless
I'm going to hold back on that, I need to do a bit of reading first. I've been off for 2 weeks, and still taking a break for 3 more, before I jump back into the game.
The question is why the warden needs the baby to be connected to some sort of neural network
because the data sample may be a potential weapon to use against the sleepers
What if the warden is trying to complete an experiment?
The prisoners are also part of a neural network. To imprint however is to attempt to write 'data' onto it.
Could be for conditioning. Potentially an attempt to control it.
id say control
The warden is like 99% likely to be Santonian industries anyway, so it makes sense they are trying to finish their research
What if the warden is the AI and it is simply trying to finish the experiment as it was programmed. (I think it's a bit too simplistic but it may be an option )
The baby is basically a genetically modified baby sleeper
So neurally imprinting it may allow someone to control them remotely
After I started to think of the infected as capable of asexual reproduction (spawning more of themselves independent of hosts) - I began to reconsider the company's choice of tactics.
If the complex was home to a giant organism that could explode with endless numbers at the sight of a giant threat such as an invading force, then a small stealth based operation would be a better alternative. Wait for the creatures to enter 'hibernation' and move around with... potentially minimal presence.
What interests me however is that we extract data from an HSU normally intended for humanoids. I have not yet played R3C1 - so I cannot confirm. Is there a human being in there or a genetic sample of some other kind?
If a human being, then it is quite a peculiar dna for 'inprint'
The only reason to do such a thing would be if there was something to gain, question is what and why.
The why isn't that important, but the only goal I can think of is control.
Well, we also have yet to find the full answer to how we relate to the prisoners.
some suspect the neural cortex implant allow the players to direct the characters externally from an HSU unit
What if the idea was the creation of such a vessel?
wait, that is just silly now that I think about it. If the HSU controlling it was stuck in that basement - that would be stupid...
What we do in R3 has to have already been performed many times before, given all the equipment.
So researching the genetic manipulation and neural imprinting process is definitely the labs primary goal
It really seems like the warden is really just using us to redo an experiment that originally went wrong
It really seems like the warden is really just using us to redo an experiment that originally went wrong
@wraith matrix What logs or clue makes you think of this ?
I always wondered what the Inject is when you start the game.
You always Inject (I suspect inject your mind into the prisoners cortex) And then it says Cortex interface established or something like that . Then you start hearing underwater noises so you are now in the HSU.
Having another mind in your cortex might also explain why they all look crazy in the loadout interface menu, they bash their heads, shake, etc.
Does the warden want to imprint another mind inside the baby's cortex ? To retrieve some information perhaps, or to even control it as it has been suggested here before.
Having control of a sleeper...would it allow you to travel through the complex with no issues ?
Sorry to divert a bit.
@royal gull The surface transmissions are different this time. All of them do appear to follow a group of prisoners who are suggested to carry their own Neonates.
The Cold Storrage are also suspicious, to be filled with a multitude of empty stands suited to hold Neonate sized HSU's. Might lend some support that another group of prisoners have been in our shoes before.
@real cedar Another thought struck me - a neural link might work both ways. It might wish to both imprint and to replicate an 'imprint' of its neural system, perhaps for research purposes.
Somebody stated that the reason you use the HSU is to replace staff in a moments notice. For example, if a miner gets killed. You will need to replace him immediately.
So what happens when the shit goes fucked and boom boom? You have a emergency service that's dedicated for clearing and swooping up. Guess who's that? That's the Prisoners. Nobody cares about them, some even consider them low in human society. So imagine using them as a to cleanup? Not like anyone cares if they are gone or not. We know the company is behind Everything in log files. So it's not impossible to think they secretly take prisoners. Why do you think there is a high number of deaths?
@royal gull Its mostly just speculation, but there is something important to keep in mind. The warden knows the layout of the complex and the equipment needed to accomplish its goal. Heavily implies that the warden is literally Santonian industries.
So given that, and also how they are having us use equipment and other objects already in the facility suggests we are completing what the original occupants of the complex were trying to do.
What does not support it however is the way the fascility resets. Unless - a horrifying though - there could be conflicting protocols inside the warden unit itself
What do you mean reset?
It is a machine, it thinks as a machine. If there is a protocol to retrieve the samples or as you suggested, perform the experiment at all costs - while also maintaining orders and protocols for keeping the fascility shut and on lockdown
I don't think its a machine at all.
I think its more of an automated system with minimal human feedback.
There is no reason why the warden needs to be this overly complicated AI and nothing supports that conclusion either
Automated system then - what if that automated system had conflicting orders? It would not experience conflicts the same way a human being would as it would percieve logic according to commands.
It would all be according to order and progress to the system. If it was ordered to open the door at one specific time, then to shut it at the end of the day on an automatic response, it would do so
I'm not sure thats really lore based
I would think canon wise the doors that are opened stay open
sleepers that were dead stay dead
it doesn't make any sense for the warden to be able to close a bunch of doors when we already achieved its objectives in that expedition
it could be protocol. The doors require a bioscan - which we have questioned. With the level of infection being present - what if the bioscan played into that mechanic?
Such doors could have been put into place to maintain to at least some level, a degree of separation, containment and quarantine not to mention level of access. If the security doors remained open after the initial bioscan, it would defeat the purpose of the potential containment
With the red bloody doors (where the infected attempt to break through), it notifies that a 'hostile biomass' is present at the other end of the door.
That would make sense if the elevator shaft wasn't jam packed with infection fog already
and it doesn't seem like the shaft is sealed either
Fog repellers could have given out
I agree though, that it might not hold water and is unlikley - even if possible. Just a humorous thought that the warden itself might be its own worst enemy due to uncorrected protocols.
Say there is a security door. The warden is responsible for the security of the fascility. So if that door was opened without very specific clearances, protocol demands it plays and alarm. The warden have also been instructed to get the prisoners behind that door. The warden itself is an automated system, thus unable to dictate its own 'logic' the same way a human would.
- it instructs the prisoners to open the door, regardless if they have the proper clearance.
- Protocol demands it plays an alert - it MUST obey its protocols
- Protocol for guiding prisoners then demand it instructs the prisoners to disable the alert in a way that 'compromises' between both protocols
Seems unlikely the warden would have that level of access to a clearly damaged facility.
Seems like the warden is basically just a prisoner deployment system that is controlled through various protocols put in place by Santonian.
Yeah. I agree. I had fun writing it regardless.
Hackett being a Santonian employee, now a prisoner is probably not a coincidence
More an observation than any theory - but there are an awful ammount of white rags in the labs at R3A1. Anyone else thinking labcoats?
maybe labcoats or some kind of cover
Hey Fish, I was thinking about the imprint and what you mentioned.
Would you think it's possible to imprint something into the neonate cortex ?
Like telling it: here, everyone who has This Specific gene (AKA IS human) is fine and dont need to kill it. Or the other way around: kill sleepers.
What is scarier is that if these things replicate on their own, if you have that kind of engineering power, Starting with one baby, you could breed sleepers weaponised against a specific genetic profile. (I think it's a bit far fetched) .
The logs also indicate that they distributed the syringes among the miners, especially the green steroid syringe that increases hammer power.
They also conducted tests of the "injury infection liquid pharmacon" (I2-LP) with a "severity of side effects that are seemingly random"
To me, this souds like careless distribution of drugs that build infection. The steroid drug were distributed to miners as a way to keep working in environments where cables for their mining equipment could not reach.
Were they stressed and pressed for time? It appears, on the first read, as if they used both the miners and their medical staff in a form of 'assembly line science experiment'.
@real cedar If the drugs I just wrote about are any indication to their genetic properties, then there may be other reasons for it as well.
I am of the belief that with the correct science and knowledge of patterns, anything can be conditioned. It is just a matter of knowing how to do it, to write genetic programming for a subject. With knowledge of the code, it should be theoretically possible to 'write instincts' within that genetic capacity. Humans are only unique due to cognitive abilities. We too are animals and can be imprinted through designed stimuli.
The traits the drugs exhibit are possibly traits found desireable in the unidentified biomass. Great strength and survivability. If the behavior patterns are any indication however, they are aggressive and troublesome. Little to no cognition to be found in the specimens we have encountered so far.
A possibillity for the neonate might be a bridge between the genomes. Perhaps a way to solve the side-effects encountered in the drugs by aligning it more to a 'human' genetic blueprint. Basically basing it on genomes that are more familiar with human genetics. (just a theory - hell, I do not even know the full science behind it)
The true use for the imprint is a mystery as of yet and could carry many implications for both research purposes and yes, possible weaponization of the biomass.
Cognition is a human trait - which is what made us the most dangerous animal on earth (until now)
I'd advise against that ๐ we don't know anything about the state of the world...that baby may be quite important.
I am...conflicted on the idea of putting the baby down.
It could very well, be the key to the next step in human evolution if it unlocked traits exhibited by the syringe drugs
i dont care the baby should be killed
I felt that, through E1. But I'll need more evidence before pulling the trigger on the lil' guy.
does this mean that there is a new explosion elsewhere that leads to the lab
? o.o
its looks like its raining outside the hole
Why are the explosions so well...directed ?
It almost feels like the mines we use: directed charge. Very strong in terms of kinetic energy, but focused in a (pretty tight ) cone.
and there are alot of other droppods outside
The idea of neural imprint however is disturbing. No human is truly free of imprinting. It happens to us from the moment we are born into a social environment - and we are by our natural design, intended to be so. By accident or otherwise.
We cling and long to our parents as infants and are thus - imprinted by their social interactions towards us. It takes a long time for our minds to develop and our minds are developed in synergy to the social environemnt around us.
As social creatures in a social environment, imprinting is by our traits, our form of evolution.
The warden using neural imprinting however... that may be a very dark and twisted way of going about it. Potentially it implies the complete lack of agency and choice on the side of the Neonate, meaning it could be utterly designed and raised in accorance with the company's design
I think that is a good point....it also seems to happen very ...fast in the case of prisoners (if it is the same process).
Or at least...at a much faster rate than intended.
we as humans often underestimate the vulnerability of our cognition. Our brains function to a high degree upon chemistry. Throw one new drug in there and it could change much about how you feel and how you percieve reality.
It is also why it would be a complex matter to splice our genetics. How would that affect cognition? Would cognition be present at all? Would that cognition align and understand our form of cognition? or view reality differently al together..
If what you say is true, Fish, then it seems to me The Warden can direct the evolution of this neonate. Direct it where is an entirely different subject.
Its potential cognitive evolution, within the boundaries of its genetic code, yes. Though, if the warden does not know what it is doing, things could also go awfully wrong
If it is spliced with human genomes, it could still be affected by an alternate genetic code.
If the imprint primarily relies upon human imprinting
it could make a grivious error if the similarities are vast and different
Just a hunch, but I have a feeling he does not.
In a way, he is still experimenting. Sending people in, getting neonates, trying it again and again.
DNA messes up on it's own in human body as it is now, let alone when you mix things like that. I think it's very prone to errors. Unless they have developed new technologies to bypass that.
Would have to be a very complex simulation system.
Might be that the Neonate will be the basis for the full game if the process goes awry.
I am still preplexed that my christ / anti-christ comparison is still somewhat holding up. If the creatures can reproduce asexually - well - add a possible 'virgin birth' to the check list.
I wrote that as a joke!
I'm curious to see what the Eggs on the ceilings had in them.
It would make sense if a female gets infected, turns into female shooters, if males get infected ( on drugs = the titans, as we call them / not on drugs = normal sleepers).
That is a good point..! The drugs as a factor!
If that turns out to be correct, then that would make some rooms literal crack houses..
Given a large presance of brutes (titans)
Another option would be if you had taken the drug before.
So let's say deeper in R2, where all the miners were. They were given the drug, did their jobs, main effects wear off, but residual chemicals still linger in the body.
Infection hits, then if you had those chemicals, would turn you in a Titan.
Almost like reactivating the drug + random mutations (so like increase in size, muscle mass, etc )
The I2-LP (not sure if I wrote that correctly) syringe is listed to have side-effects of 'random severity' within the logs.
I would deem it a possibility!
It would explain why some of them are invisible. As opposed to evolving due to a need to overcome a certain obstacle.
Does anyone know about the second log in R3A1 already?
Because it drops some pretty hard information.
Including a general timeframe for the game's setting, an idea at how far Santonian reaches, and a possible implication that they themselves might be the Warden.
Although, the last one is speculation.
I read bout that one, yes. To me it sounds like someone was leaking intel from the inside and the radio station was broadcasting against Santonian, so they were considering to put it out of comission
I think that implies that Santonian has a nigh governmental amount of power, the way in which the audio log talks about "them" wanting to shut it down, it's really reminiscent of some weird conspiracy theorist type stuff you might hear today about area 51 or something.
If they have that kind of power, they might be the Warden themselves.
Or at least, some kind of MAJOR direct connection, likely some sort of business connection from prior to the events of GTFO
Which I'm sure it's quite a no brainer that the Warden have some connection to Santonian, since we're being sent into Santonian facilities, but I think that they might have a deeper connection.
There's also I think some minor connection to be inferred between the way the radio host talks about mushrooms, and some of the plant life in the labs, since a lot of it seems to kind of be fungal-like in the way they've seemed to grow, but I think that's most likely looking way too far into it
When I heard the mushroom part..kept in the dark...feeding. Nice reference.
it depends how much tinfoil you are willing to use on this one I think:
That last line..."if you want this broadcast to stop, we will need to shake hands".
What would they want, this KDS group ?
They have on-site presence, so obviously they must be the security staff there. What else is this about apart from money ? Also seems to me that all this Security has simply...vanished ? no weapons nowhere, no armory/armor anywhere, no security staff bodies.
Perhaps they didn't agree to the handshake?
I think KDS planted the informant inside. Then they did the broadcast and masked it as a 3rd party. Then boom, "we can take care of your problem if we shake hands" .
I think so too, I think they never did shake hands.
Possible that KDS pulled out of the complex before things went crazy ?
Maybe, though looking at the log... KDS might be some sort of initiative, order, or action, performable by that group, rather than a group in itself.
I think until we get more context, KDS can be read in multiple different ways.
Reading that again, I can see your point.
I read it more into: Our company can offer both on site security as well as media coverage of your brand, as a complete solution.
It could well be that, I think it's equally capable of being what's being said, I think we'll just have to wait until we get more context.
what does nframe means
nFrame would be Neural Frame
No clue, but I would guess that having a neurally imprinted Neonate is what's required to be compatible with the nFrame. I'm assuming it's using the brains of the Neonates essentially for computing power.
Neural imprint is likely to curate the brain to work in a way that's compatible with the nFrame, or something along those lines.
Just putting some more info out here: the IIx drugs that boost muscle strength refer specifically to the IIx muscle group: more information here: https://www.issaonline.com/blog/index.cfm/2018/type-iia-muscle-fibers-training-for-explosiveness
The other bit I found was on the second syringe, the Pharmacon:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pharmacon
It is a broader term for Drug. However, pharmacons usually have more than just an active and inactive component. (usually an endogenous substance, be it enzyme, DNA or hormone)
So...basically, I think the miners were given IIx drugs for the muscle strenght and The I2-LP injection had some sort of DNA or hormones in it. Now...putting DNA in an organism is generally a bad idea, particularly more so if that DNA is part of a very aggressive pathogen.
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A pharmacon or pharmakon (from Greek: (ฯฮฌฯฮผฮฑฮบฮฟฮฝ), adapted from pharmacos) is a biologically active substance. It is used more broadly than the term drug because it includes endogenous substances, and biologically active substances which are not used as drugs. Typically the w...
Can someone update me on lore from R1-R2?
^ then R2 was all about unlocking other parts of the facility to get this "baby" that is very important and the entire base of R3
The ID's that we got in R1B1 were most likely to unlock other parts of the facility, or the lab.
The Partial Decoders in R1C2 were probably for R2D2 and R2E1, since the information for the expeditions was encrypted (it says the warden had a lockdown on them, but I feel that was just a placeholder for a reason to not have players be able to go there yet). We then go to R2E1 to get this "Baby" or "Vessel" and then here we are, in the lab in R3.
The baby probably has something to do with a vaccine or anti-sleeper "cure"
I'm doubtful of that in particular due to the things in R3
we resuscitate the neonate, then depressurize its HSU, then acquire DNA samples to have it "neurally imprinted", and then secure it to a neural frame
if it were for a vaccine, we would pretty simply retrieve the neonate to be brought to the surface for testing
hmmm so the neonate was frozne from r2?
What if they use the neurally imprinted neonate to find a way to control sleepers?
It would seem so, R2B1 objective was to open the door to 192 and extract ( the 9 scan mission ), R2D2 was set in 192, right after a similiar red ringed door
although the entry layout was different
Just a thought, what if the warden is trying to inplant himself into the Neonate? Hence the neural imprinting? Just a thought.
the warden aren't a him
they're a group
If it is the same injection that we are subjected to as prisoners, and then the cortex interface gets established...it may be that The Warden are trying to control the baby
the prisoners don't know what it is but it has been stated by ten chambers as being a group outside of the game. yes i guess that means that technically within the game the prisoners don't know, but we as players know that they're a group as the devs have stated it as such
You know what my theory is? That they clone the prisoners bodies. It's a complete waste to dispose of prisoners who are actually good/useful and have expirencece surviving down there. Hence the "Neuro interface lost" screen when a prisoner dies
@lilac island Can you please provide a source for that ?
I know the devs refer to the warden as They...but that doesn't make them a group. They might as well be using the term to make it as confusing as they can for us.
I think Cloning is not a bad take. My take is that...the body itself is expendable. But the mind that gets injected (let's say, ours) still retains the experience. so that next time you go in, you have that previous knowledge...much like...EvE online.
itโs not been stated that the warden is a group
theyโve literally always referred to the warden as a they, which could mean anything from one person, to a group, to an ai
What tinted said.
so the||mother|| has 4 arms, give ||birth to babies|| its like the experiements were made from|| pregnants humans|| w dna slicing ??
Warden, the googledocs you have, does that have all the logs from R2 and R3 ?
@lilac island
Thanks, I'll go through them again and see what else I can find.
I think the drug information was quite cool.
theyโre also on the wiki afaik
or will be very soon
From what weโve talked about; it was more of โletโs not update the wiki with d1 stuff day one, especially considering the majority of the wiki staff are bug huntersโ
however, they will be updated soonish, itโs more on โwell, itโs been a few days so letโs add b level content
However, if you want to update the wiki, go ahead
It seems like zones repeat?
R3C1's zones: 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
R1B2's zones: 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23
Overlapping zones: 16 17 18 19 20
the important thing is the depth
just cause they have the same zone number doesnt mean they are connected
Can soneone give me an explanation of why we have a baby. What happened in e 1 and what have i missed as someone who didnt get to beat r2
pretty much nothing
you didnt miss anything than a rigged lvl and some very good others
Story wise
Where are we at
Its killing me that i couldnt finish either rundowm
probably new mexico
Baby was attached to a neural frame, which stopped an alarm in D1, which I guess the Warden wanted.
||also killing a large biomass in a boss fight||
Ah so is that biomass
The hidden enemy type
I didnt get to see
What in fuck did it do
I wish i could have played it
Next rundown it'll give birth to scouts
HMMM
||shadow babies||
GTFO Lore in 5 lines:
You are a death row prisoner tasked with entering a monster infected facility in exchange for your freedom
The Warden wants you to go on a fetch quest, then Get The Fuck Out, hence the name of the game
(Let me think of what the other three lines are)
I doubt we would get freedom it is also not like that we try to escape either^^ Also Bishop seems to have something to do with Santonian
If we're not fighting for freedom, why are we fighting at all
It would seem that were dropping down on HSU pods
There's literally no incentive to go into the pit
We dont even know the objective of the Warden either
Were fighting cause the Warden held us captive
and he's sending us down to do shit for him
I still don't understand exactly what the monsters are
I assume they are a collective
A single mind, where each monster is like a hand or a foot
Yet we don't know why were doing what he wants all we know is that we need to do them
Mostly because the trailers seem to imply it
I dont think they are a collective like the Zerg. Cause just killing one would trigger them all.
I dont think they are man-made. There is also a huge emphasis on Iridium. If you look at those research consoles. It seems like organisms down there evolved in using it. Plants were found with traces of Iridium in them. I think the devs want to evolve their story around this element. Artefacts were also found containing Iridium. Sure could be just a weird stone formation labeled as artefact.
Yeah that is I think the reason they started this massiv mining operation in the first place. But no mining operation would lead to laboratories to investigate organisms of Ir in such a scope. Also Iridium comes in combination with the other platinum group elements like Rhodium. That is why those are so expensive in the first place, cause it is hard to divide them. I think there is something else. There are known organic molecules with Ir in their structures (pretty sure they are toxic though like most metal-organic molecules), so it is not far fetched that the devs maybe took that and evolved the organisms (plants, sleepers) around Iridium.
I mean the test logs keep saying about how organic matter reacts to something... and I think one said about sulfur and a lot of iridium.
Personally I start to think the company is if actual is one attempted to grow metal or have something organic able to produce a resource cheaply and it somehow got to this.
But than again it can be anything
I think it was human testing I have a picture of something really weird in a test tube hold on a second
doesnt that look like the stomach of a sleeper
(striker)
This picture makes me think they saw some kind of capability in the symptoms of the fungi and started human testing in order to create something
And once they did, all they had to do was use syringes as ways of creating new types of sleepers
there appears to be a lot of trial and error going on, so i dont think they just "found the sleepers"
Would like to hear all the audio logs, found two so far
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0eu_GU6QOQ @scarlet juniper (credits to warden + chxse)
Sender: Anders Jackson
Receiver: Janson Davies
Date: September 3, 2050
Subject: Conspiracy Radio
Mr. Davies,
Thought I'd send thi...
also https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1LfxwBTnVAUDqdVSEwP6qx-22q6vVmwGQARmYn8SGItc/edit#slide=id.g80cc0ad5be_30_5 here are all the logs (also credit to warden)
Orpez mosin
You guys are wonderful ๐ !
wait thats not lore related
oh hey, someone beat me to it
i gotchu
also thereโs still a log missing ๐ญ i can reveal it tmrw
Transcript: || Youโre listening to State of Truth AM. If you are new, listener, let me say: Welcome to the Enlightenment. But let me take a moment here to set things up for you. Now, we know, you know, that they areโฆ hiding things from us, right? The press, the mainstream media. Theyโre all apart of- apart of something big- you know? A bigger picture. The lies run deep, and if youโre not listening to State of Truth youโre only hearing their side of the story, got it? Youโre being spoon-fed lies and deceit and they will tell you whatever is needed to pacify you, to keep you in the dark. Mushrooms, right? Keep them in the dark and feed them bullshit. Well, not today. Today, you woke up, friend. We broadcast the truth at State of Truth. And if they shut us down, weโll move and start again. And they are trying to stop us, rest assured of that. There is a concerted effort to keep the truth from you, a global conspiracy designed to keep you oppressed and hold back the truth. Well we donโt play that game at State of Truth. Weโre going to be taking calls here in a minute and the lines are open to anyone. Today I want to hear from you, if you have information about Dreyfus industries. Now these guys, they have their hand in everything, right? That microwave youโre using to make popcorn? Was made by Dreyfus. How โbout that bowl you put in the microwave, where was it made? China? You know who works with the Chinese Government? Dreyfus industries. How โbout the popcorn itself? Take a look at the packaging, what does it say? Does it say Agra-global food supplies? If so, you know who that is, right? Dreyfus industries, thatโs right. Theyโre in everything. And right now, theyโre in you. Whether you like it, or not. Okay, so the lines are open, and I am waiting for your calls. The resistance starts today, people.||
i am forbidden
pls dont, they're endangered 
charger best enemy
^^^^
Also, Iโd love to actually have to tune into a fake state of truth am episode
like, whip out a radio, ect
nice
I dont think they are man-made. There is also a huge emphasis on Iridium. If you look at those research consoles. It seems like organisms down there evolved in using it. Plants were found with traces of Iridium in them. I think the devs want to evolve their story around this element. Artefacts were also found containing Iridium. Sure could be just a weird stone formation labeled as artefact.
@dry owl Do you mean the stone formations that were mentioned? They are also described as a biomass so maybe this refers to the throbbing and glowing mass in the ceiling in one of the r1c levels (i think) were we first encountered the black chargers. I don't think they are entirely man made because of this. They probably encountered these biomasses after digging too deep and the infection started to spread. Then they probably started building the labs to test the infection and fucked up big time
ok so Dreyfus is our main company
it seems Nyxos creates a ton of stuff a long side them and is a big supplier for them
lmao\
It's possible all the other companies are just shell companies or also owned by dreyfus
they probs are
Some companies have been labeled as untrustworthy tho
ooh yay
RESISTANT
Interesting tidbit idk if anyone else has noticed, in D1, in the room with the two alarm doors that can be keycards spawns, there's a plant in one of the glass containment things
If you look at the plant, there's small, fleshy, growths coming out of the soil
where in C1?
oooh yeah me too
what is that stuff it was dripping from the ceiling
looked like infectious fog but like liquid
oh that stuff is in A1 aswell
me and a bud saw it dripping out of some weird thing on the wall
or some weird plant maybe
also yeah the thing in C1
it's weird that this plant also grows on solid ground. It's like some really hairy green mold
So just tested out the DMR
Awesome for nailing the bastards with headshots
Not a lot of ammo though.
Also I keep examining the bodies of the sleepers, and I'm almost 100% certain there are eggs inside of the bodies.
Because if you look closely, you'll see what looks like cysts lined inside the tissue.
Also some, but not all sleepers can survive without a head like a cockroach.
I wonder why?
It kinda leads me to speculate whether or not the host body is actually "alive"
Because if you look at it, the head is completely destroyed/malformed to the point where a brain probably wouldn't survive.
And the body itself is repurposed.
O:
So what, the body is just repurposed to be a mobile womb for the parasites?
YUCK
And hey man. ๐
๐
Hey does anyone know what the roar you hear in C1 into z17 is
yeah im pretty sure all body parts are repurposed
no way man, chargers dont scream o-o
no like it lasted 30 secs and was spin chilling
Yo, remember the sounds we heard? @stone vine
nothing else makes that noise
in A1?
Yeah
yeah idk what that was either

dude when i heard the noise in C1 that was scary as fuck
something really weird made that noise, and i wonder why
did it get scared when we opened the door
I gotta know what the parasite is in origin, and if it's actually fungal or some weird byproduct of whatever they've been working on in the complex
o-o there are so many of those holes
its fungal
but its a very smart somehow...
it repurposes human hosts to its own needs
Oh btw, I've been working on dodging tongues and projectiles. ๐
๐ thats good man we should run A1 again soon
I've been going in solo to purposely aggro rooms just to figure out how to best fight/avoid stuff
learn scouts too, that way we can go through rooms together no problem
also i think we can agree this fungal parasite is a hive mind
I think so too
its like a bee hive
they have specific roles and seem to want to protect one key specimen
ooh something interesting
I'm also gonna assume the infection that sleepers have spreads pretty quick.
yeah by the looks of it
i think it takes control of the host within hours
and once you have it, you cant stop it
Yeeeeeah you're pretty screwed. xD
i find it really weird how we find so many dead bodies though
wouldnt they just become sleepers, or like o-o
were they murdered
I actually saw some corpses that looked like they were in mid-transformation.
yeah me too
even getting into a fetal position
it seems that the way they "sleep" is for a reason
there is a set way they need to sleep
I guess it's for the eggs?
Also why do some of the sleepers look like they have their hands up in prayer?
see how they just involuntarily get into that position
yeah wtf
they do, thats really weird...
also all the ones that are like in the beggining of transforming all have smashed body parts
Yeah, maybe they were eaten?
maybe, but if thats not the case then i dont know what takes thier limbs o-o
their**
also like all the dead ones dont actually transform, so maybe the host actually still is alive
and their organs have shifted places
I'd hope not lol, that would suck.
the humans would probs be unconscious( i hope)
Maybe they just rot away because it's unnecessary and takes potential "brain" usage away? I also think that the brain and intestines get somehow transported because like you said they survive without a head and the big ones can be literal walking legs
yeah they all get repurposed, but where would the brain go then, or maybe its just not vital anymore
Whatever the infection really is, it can just use the body as a puppet.
yes exactly
I think the brain is just replaced and their entire body acts like it
they seem really "simple"
Mothers are def an extreme stage of infection.
Maybe they evolve over time
or a different branch of infection
infections have different branches of that same infection
well whats certain is that
covid for example
True
covid 19 is different than other types of covid
lmao hackett
I think it's just responsive to the gender. If you look closely the shooters are female and the tongues are male
yeah it is gender
so that "big belly" could also be an over mutated ball sack
lmao ball sack ahahahah
well also female and male have different chromosones
could effect chromosones
or the way each body is built
I think the genitals get shifted or repurposed somehow, and the whole body just becomes a big womb for the parasites.
its a fungal parasite
more like ophiocordyceps
But really now, what exactly are they shooting? And how the fuck do they become shadows?
it is a pathogenic fungi
meaning it attacks from the outside and eats the inside tissue
Someone in here said the devs confirmed there are eggs in the bodies
it literally kills the host then transforms each cell
wouldnt say "kill"
mmhmm
I'm pretty sure the conscious human is gone
but it does that in the later stages of infection
yeah it starts on the outside before slowly shifting and eating through internal organs and tissue
lovely
something on those lines
probs feels great
spicy air
like a nice internal massgae
no
massage
no
yes
no
Everyone gets to become a mommy
The screaming blobs could have been human too (once)
well hmmm
depends
the question is
do babys hatch out of them ๐ฆ
๐ญ
I DO NOT wanna picture sleepers reproducing
LMAO SAME
you already see them do it tho
so
since they down here small doses of radiation transforms some strains of mutation and grossly mutates them
I think the big shooters are hot tbh
Ok agree on that
and eventually it mutates them into something not humanoid
What are the feelers that come out of a scout? Are those the parasites too?
Yeah but it's still controlled mutation
the tentacles o-o, what could a human body have that can be made into fucking tentacles???
Intestines?
or the ophiocordyceps infected a different host and thus resulted in an inhuman mutation
i.e a plant
yes it could be inhuman mutation u right u right
If you think about it, the big ones probably were the normal ones before. So they probably absorb something to produce mass
the tumours growths in the plant showcases in there
ayy
explain spitters
probably some overgrowing mold got infected on a cellular level
then proceeded to grow into a multicellular organism like a spitter
also expains the green shit thats around spitters
ik ik its rlly good
beautiful
i think thats a mushroom
yeah that makes more sense than humans becoming spitters.
?? suspense
WAIT
WAIT
dude
hold on a second
remember the plants, maybe the spitter is a plant
like an infected plant
thats literally what i just said lmao
In the future we will se plant-flesh hybrids on legs
oh my bad i read what u said the wrong way round
The infection, at least I think, knows what it's doing. Think about everything set in place from the way the sleepers function in a hivemind manner - the sacks that line walls and ceilings that explode upon contact with a non-infected entity, etc.
yeah its intellegent
we gone see a human be a tentacle with tumours legs running around and when you hit it the tumours blowup to reveal smaller tongues
nope
o-o pls no
This really reminds me of dead space
Kinda yeah
But I like the fungi much more
that's spoopy
yeah ophiocordyceps knows how to transform an organism and make it intelligent
in its own way
plus this one is much more advanced
In our case, it repurposes our flesh.
and can change it drastically
it even amalgamates with others of its kind
Despite this being completely horrific and disgusting to some degree, it's fascinating that things like that exist @fervent iris and I am glad that this shit doesn't attack humans (for now)
lmao
its okay thpugh
So bottom line, are sleepers "alive" in a conventional sense?
cant wait for GTFO irl
whos coming with me
come on guys its 2020 like we can expect it ๐
Wait can you show instances of ophiocordyceps amalgamation? Why would it do that?
cause if this exists in real life its probably just a kilometre under the ground in the Yucatan peninsula though so we good ๐
I think they are alive, but very primitive and simply do what they are set to do for the swarm
As long as no crazy companies are like "yeah let's dig here"
well
ohhh btw there was a mining expedition there in 2016 and there isnt much coverage but they found some weird shit
like irl ๐
look at enemy design art
greeeeeeeeeeeeat
mmmhmm mhhm cant wait
This reminds me of that gigantic underground fungus underneath the ground somewhere in america
you can see two different spines
and several arms
it is entirely possible that it grew them on its own
So like, is the biomass just a big nest? Or a fusion of many bodies to incubate a large number of eggs?
and just copied body parts
which it can do
like yeah that thing looks like a nice plate of ribs
The biomass was black and didn't react to shots, so I think it's really for a huge number of eggs and therefore goes 100% defense
wonder what it tastes like
no
ohh yeah the biomass is hot
rotten meat probs
I mean the chargers had black skin too and were tanky
oh yeah and the biomass moves yay
That's probably some sort of crust extension
Is the black color just extremely necrotized flesh?
unlikely
Its like bone plated armor o-o
also this thing is legit another form of charger
Maybe it chemically induces something to seep out of the skin and hardens
i love that picture
OMG
they both act the same way
Yeah it's naruto running towards the viewer
probably before going unconscious and coming back as a full striker
Ok makes sense that way
but also i wonder if the chargers are strong because they are "guards"
as those horns could just be teeth growing in from the neck moving up to the head to be in a vertical placement
they protect the biomass
then shorten in size and become a mouth
as you can see the person is expelling their old teeth and intestines
Yeah that's why we first saw them when we encountered the biomass
What is this thing? D:
and i think the intestines stay attached to the body only to fall down to the stomach and reattach
is that concept art
wait
yeah
holdon
Oof
WAIT GUYS
The thing at the end of the R3 gameplay trailer
that isnt the mother
thats the thing on the card
i believe its the monster that picks you up and chokes you from the ROG mastertalk
no its the mother
it has to be the appearance is strikingly similar
I also think it's the mother because you can somewhat see it's features
supposed to have a large mouth for the tongue
no way thats the mother
circular shaped at that
It's somewhat sideways
bumps around its body as thats present in the rog clip
there isnt those horns coming out of it either
and a similar stomach
wait
theres three parts to this rundown o-o
woahhhh
thats so cool nope silly me haha
Any speculation as to why some sleepers, when in an upright position, have their hands together as if praying?
they are praying cuz permarital birth
its the same thing with the dead corpses
covering their face to keep out the light so they can sleep
eventually undergoing transformation when they go to sleep
then wake up doing the same as sleepers are light-sensitive
have a "face"
and baby sleepers that grow eventually do the same
probably as instinct
Heh, if you look at what's left of the face on a sleeper, it does look like a resting expression.
Eyes closed.
That also makes sense.
I'm super curious as to what else the infection can do to the body.
Or if we'll ever end up fighting just a massive conglomeration of bodies.
yeah i havent beaten D1 yet so i was confused
ive been asleep for like the past 3 days ahaha
except for early in the morning
I'd assume actual military personnel were in the complex? Makes you wonder how if they failed, how would anyone else stop a mass outbreak?
Just nuke it?
nah
no nuking
we arent trying to stop the infection i dont think
I think Warden is trying to uncover it
not uncover but more like work to completing the goal of santonian
What happens to the prisoners/complex once the main task is complete?
the overarching goal
well santonian was gonna take 50 years to finish all construction and mining then turn it into a permanent facility related to the sleepers
cause they seemed like it was gonna take super long before they get their job done
and for the warden to try to work towards that goal with small teams of 4 untrained personnel
just to do as much uncovering and research as possible
along side the sleeper threat
i'd say it wont be for a century and a half till were done
I don't think we (the prisoners) would be allowed to live in the long run.
We're infected, no?
ye
at least the warden is smart enough to keep surviving personnel
as with each time they live the more experienced they get
so it can eventually deploy the most skilled and capable for the most important and difficult jobs
I'd imagine we're not allowed to come in contact with non-infected people.
Like we're confined.
Or if we'll ever end up fighting just a massive conglomeration of bodies.
@stiff island I think this won't happen because so far the infection is intelligent and gives a clear purpose to everything. Why would a mass of bodies be useful? It's just like the hands, they get mutated away because they are useless. As much as I would love gunning down a mass of sleepers, I don't look forward to it.
True.
i like how the warden is like
"you committed a crime"
"you've been naughty now get in the w a t e r b o x"
stupid stinky prisoner
i dont think he even lets us out of the HSU
At least there wouldn't just be a blob. The space is confined and sunlight is a problem. A possible thing that could happen would be giants that are made to siege cities etc at night when the infection goes wild.
hes just like, haha silly prisoner get in your cage
i think giants are sleepers who took the IIX injection
I just hope the infection didn't get out of the complex
even if it did there would be no way out of the crater itself
they would have to pull some world war Z zombie shit
I don't think it's outside because we could just fly over the infected areas and desinfection pack them away during the day
Well, the infected are fast and like to swarm.
But yeah, they don't like direct light.
The end goal would probably be to completely take over the underground of the earths crust
Are we just glorified pest control? xD
we are more like glorified slaves
that too
There could be a possibility for the infection to survive above. By using the dense fog to absorb the sunlight
Maybe it's just a game mechanic regarding the number of infected we fight off, but somehow I'd imagine we slowly reclaim parts of the complex.
HSU's
Stasis probably slows it down, yeah.
Maybe we don't reach the critical level and therefore survive with a dose of desinfection
Kinda like being a carrier, similar to other viruses.
yeah the HSU are the only thing keeping us alive im pretty sure
I have a hunch that we may eventually get to see areas that are more contaminated.
Not just the fog, but biomass.
Jabu jabuโs belly mission when
Squishy funtime land
I would love that. The more biomass the better
It'd be cool and kinda spooky to see "other" prisoners that failed.
Like, discovering their bodies.
Or maybe even audio logs.
anyone got any ideas as to what the player evaluations are?
is there any link or website where i can read up on whats going on i the rundown in terms of story/lore and pervious rundowns.
the wiki has a good amount
also theres this google doc https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1LfxwBTnVAUDqdVSEwP6qx-22q6vVmwGQARmYn8SGItc/edit#slide=id.g82bf5a0867_160_0
Logs on Wiki have just been updated for Rundown #003
https://gtfo.gamepedia.com/Logs
And talking about the logs, I noticed that the numbers appearing next to the Name and Surnam in mails may be related to the importance of the personnal: Janson Davies is A001 and is always the receiver in important mails, like the flood in R2 logs, or the illegal radio in R3. And Andrew Clinton is B035 and seems to be in charge of the Complex creation and reports to Davies on a regular basis.
And talking about the numbers, if we assume that the creation of the compex was made between august 2050 - considering the dates of R3D1 logs, and the complete log of R2 that states august 1st 20(50?). The construction of the complex ran 20 monts (R3D1) aproximatively and ended in March 2052. During the construction, an illegal radio started to emit from somewhere near the Complex on september 3rd 2050 (see log R3A1 and R3C1). And on the permanent auto_gen_status.log there is a date in international standard: 53/10/11: October 11th 2053. Does anyone else agree with that ?
