Puma reworks, backfills and GO

[finite roost]

I will use this post to share suggestions and feedback on the mountain lion. I used to have a general post to talk about the other feline species, but decided to focus on one to gather more feedback. Feel free to share your thoughts and opinions here. I will keep updating and bumping it daily, so hopefully we can achieve something with this.

Balance suggestions #1

Population rework
The major complaint about pumas is how they are everywhere. Since tigers and snow leopards have been well received by the community, I want to propose the other cats getting a similar treatment, reducing their population and giving them large home ranges. I will make posts about the other cats soon;

Reduce puma/mountain lion population to around 16 per map. Maybe 20 in Parque since their range there is the entire map;
Remove mountain lion/puma drink zones (if you disagree with this but agree with my other points, please consider just reacting with a ☑️ instead of downvoting); Otherwise, I will be providing suggestions for low impact drink times for the backfills;

If you dont agree with the population numbers, please vote with ✔️ and share your thoughts.

Balance suggestions #2

Backfills

The reason I think these maps should have pumas/cougars/mountain lions backfilled to them is because in real life they are a very popular game species in the regions said maps represent. Another cool fact is that each of these maps could have them as a different name. Cougar for Askiy (most used name for them in Canada), puma or cougar for Rancho (same reason as before) and mountain lion for Layton.

Plus, a good Great One should be present in a wide variety of maps.

**Rancho: **
-Forested or mountainous areas;
Drink zones 00:00 - 03:00 (only overlaps with peccary but they wont share the same zones);

Layton:
-Forested or mountainous areas;
Drink zones 00:00 - 03:00 (overlaps a bit with coyote but they don't overlap in most of their ranges);

Askiy Ridge:
-Forested or mountainous areas. Having the gray wolf as a competitor, cougars wouldn't occupy their entire optimal habitat. See an example in the maps I propose.
Drink zones 00:00 - 03:00 (overlaps with gray wolf, but since both are predators they shouldn't spook each other. I also think wolves should have a smaller distribution in the map, which even helps with grinding)

If you don't agree with backfilling them to all 3 maps, please vote for the ones you want following the order they were presented;

[ionic stump]

It has been stated before that Parque is supposed to have a large puma population, could they use a bit of a reduction, idk and the only reason someone would grind their drink zones is if they want a diamond or are trying to complete that one side mission where you have to get a diamond of most species (except the peccary since they are a backfill)

I also don't see much of a point in calling the cougars on Askiy Ridge "Cougars" when Mountain Lion would work fine, it would be nice if they differentiated the Pumas of Parque from the Mountain Lions of Silver Ridge as their seperate subspecies because their codex entries only have their scientific name listed as "Puma concolor". The South American Pumas have the trinomial name of Puma concolor concolor while the North American Cougar is Puma concolor cougar

[finite roost]

Visual suggestions #2

Puma dimorphism
Something i think would be really cool to have in game are different models for males and females. I'm pretty sure the new roe deer have that, so I thought it would be cool to expand that to other species. In real life people always target large, bulky males cause they make for cool trophies.

As you can see, the male is much bulkier and muscular than the female, having a larger head and jowls.

Both these specimens live in Arizona (Rancho). In places like Patagonia and the Rockies the difference can be even more noticeable. I will post more of that later;

[finite roost]

how many do you think would be good for Parque? Also the name change would be simply for fun, like they did with SRP where its still the same in the codex

[ionic stump]

I'm not sure how many but 20 seems a bit light considering that the story of Parque implies there are a lot of pumas so maybe 30 or so. As for the codex naming its why I pointed out there are two subspecies (North American and South American)

[finite roost]

30 seems fine considering we currently have like 100 per map i guess

Visual suggestions #3

New mating call suggestion

This is called a caterwaul. Females in heat do this to attract males, but males will also do it (although rarely), probably to mark territory.

Not even is it more realistic than the current one (which means aggression), but probably less annoying as its shorter.

[void arch]

Id rather them be called pumas than cougars if they ever make it to rancho, "Puma" is what they are called in Spanish and what is mainly used to refer to them in Latin America it would make more sense locally since in silver ridge they are called mountain lions

[finite roost]

Ik some english speaking parts of Sonora and Arizona prefer to call them cougars, but could go both ways

Visual suggestions #4

Improved feed zone track

This is called a cache. When cats kill something too big to eat in one go, they cover their prey with debris, saving it for later. In this image, we can see a mule deer cached by a cougar, in Wyoming. Not only does this look more realistic than a bunch of meat chunks scattered everywhere (cats don't do that, dogs might), it looks way cooler.

For each map, there could be one cached model for one of the herbivores they'd take as prey in that reserve. I believe there are some models like that used for missions in some maps;

[atomic bronze]

I was gonna say something about this. Parques story says it has some of the densest numbers of Pumas in the world (which I’d believe seeing as it’s remote Patagonian steppe) so 30-40 on the map wouldn’t be bad if you ask me.

[atomic bronze]

Certainly agree with adding a limited population to Rancho, Layton not so much since it’s supposed to be a pretty beginner friendly map and a predator spooking a lot of animals wouldn’t be optimal, Askiy in the high mountains would be cool with a limited population.

[finite roost]

#1449974902307160064 message

Here i suggested a spook system rework, plus the drink times i suggested would minimize zone overlaping

[atomic bronze]

Then I wouldn’t see too big of an issue with it, assuming they get a rework. I really wish that cougars were rare to begin with, especially seeing as I’ve spent an immense amount of my life in the wood and the mountains and I’ve never seen a mountain lion.

[finite roost]

Yeah they are pretty elusive, even changing their routine and behaviors to avoid human presence. Should they have a defensive mechanic in case you get too close? Irl a healthy adult will always flee, but it could be fun to have some action in game

[atomic bronze]

I don’t think it’s a bad idea. They’re not too dissimilar to black bears where they will on occasion defend themselves if you scare them, at least from what I’ve heard and seen on video. They should at least growl and snarl at you before fleeing.

[finite roost]

Sometimes (might even be a bug) they do attack you if you spook them from say under 30m. they will run around trampling you (there isnt even an attack animation afaik). Perhaps that could be turned into a proper system, since I don't think they should one shot you like tigers do, but them being as fast as they are might make it hard to survive an attack, even if they sorta work like buffalos.

[atomic bronze]

I’d like if them (alongside bears) would bluff charge you, sorta standing their ground and growling/roaring at you (even though cougars scream more than roar). Just something to try and scare you away rather than attacking instantly, much like they’d do irl.

[finite roost]

That would be cool. My only issue with it is that it would make them a free kill basically, maybe even a meta strategy.

[finite roost]

One of Torres del Paine dominant males next to two females. You can also see how much their colors can vary.

[finite roost]

Balance suggestions #3

Suggestion: remove the chasing mechanic:

For those who don't know, chasing is a mechanic that large cats and wolves have where, during their feed time, they chase other animals for hundreds of meters. Even though it looks cool, this mechanic is very buggy in itself, but also creates other bugs (i.e wolf flee bug, pumas constantly calling). Not only that, but it also maximizes spooking prey, as they will run around multiple zones before they stop.

Until a proper rework is done, this mechanic should be removed from the game. Instead, keep feed zones the same as they are for other species, while trying to make sure the animals actually eat meat and not grass.

Thoughts?

[finite roost]

Unrelated but cool interaction i just had. Cougars should keep something like this. Notice how the bobcat didn't spook the rabbits before it pounced them, which is pretty cool.

https://medal.tv/games/thehunter/clips/lIjFvVSgP6ce0pExt?invite=cr-MSxKclksNDg0NDE1NTgy&v=30
https://medal.tv/games/thehunter/clips/lIjG6gwJD-8tEZqq1?invite=cr-MSwzTmUsNDg0NDE1NTgy

[finite roost]

Great One references #1
Onza

This is the Onza, a cryptid recorded since 1500. The cat had the appearance of a cougar with a very long, thin body and long, thin dog-like legs, it was also more aggressive, with countless reports of them attacking people. There were like 5 hunting reports of it in the last century, including some pictures. Its smaller than a cougar, resembling a cheetah.

Some reports mention it having striped legs, some others say it has spots. While in real life it is just a young, maybe deformed cougar, in game it would be a cool reference for a GO, having longer limbs, darker fur and maybe different patterns.

Another theory about its existence is that its an American cheetah (Miracinonyx sp.) that somehow survived extinction. I will suggest the Miracinonyx as a GO reference in the next post.

Art by Hodari

https://www.academia.edu/5050927/Onsa_Real
https://www.scielo.org.ar/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S0327-93832008000100015

[finite roost]

Great One references #2
American cheetah

Despite its name, the american cheetah (Miracinonyx spp.) is actually more closely related to pumas, sharing their last common ancestor around 3.5Mya, by the time they got to North America. For this suggestion, i'm gonna focus on Miracinonyx trumani, as its more unique appeareance wise (being more recent than M. inexpectatus, it evolved convergently to being more cursorial like the Acinonyx genus). The main difference between them and pumas is that their limbs were more elongated, contributing to its more specialized hunting style. Its coat is up to speculation, which can make up for many interesting Great One concepts.

First image: Skull morphology comparison between A. jubatus, M. trumani and P. concolor
Second image: Skeletal reconstruction
Third image: Art by @WandErful_art
Fourth and fifth: Art by Hodari
Sixth: Art by Isaac-owj

https://doi.org/10.1098/rsbl.2022.0483
https://doi.org/10.1016/j.isci.2022.105671
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/360719486_MIRACINONYX_TRUMANI_CARNIVORA_FELIDAE_FROM_THE_RANCHOLABREAN_OF_THE_GRAND_CANYON_ARIZONA_AND_ITS_IMPLICATIONS_FOR_THE_ECOLOGY_OF_THE_AMERICAN_CHEETAH

[finite roost]

Current consensus on Felidae taxa if anyone wants to check:

https://repository.si.edu/bitstream/handle/10088/32616/A_revised_Felidae_Taxonomy_CatNews.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y

[somber void]

These would all be amazing additions

[finite roost]

Great One references #4
Domestic cat mutations

As the largest member of Felinae, it would be cool if the puma GO took inspiration from the many different mutations our pets can have. Here are some, and, as always, feel free to contribute with more.

1-Salmiak coat;
3 to 6- Chimerism
7- 'Moscow Mutation'
8- "Roan" Karpati trait

https://doi.org/10.1111/age.13438
http://messybeast.com/mosaicism6.htm
http://messybeast.com/roan-tweed.htm

(The mosaicism picture is probably AI, i just wanted a good side view to exemplify the coat. Its a common calico cat you might be familiar with)

Edit: removed the mosaicism picture. Im going to make a new post about other common yet unique coats later;

[faint copper]

Here is my opinion: chasing is necessary and challenging. Chasing and hunting occur when the predator and the prey cross paths or share the same zone.

If you don’t want a predator to hunt your prey, hunt the problematic predator to push it into another zone. The problem needs to be fixed that happens with grizzly bears and caribou, brown bears and reindeer, and other similar cases, not only during drinking times.

I absolutely love watching the chase. It’s happened to me many times, and it’s really cool. Tiger chasing nilgai, snow leopard chasing Himalayan Thar.

I would like scavenging during feeding times to be part of in-game animals.

[finite roost]

I actually wish they would rework the chasing mechanic to make it function properly and MAYBE actually result in a kill sometimes (more on that later); However, in its current state it proves to be very buggy (wolves have a bug where the chasing and fleeing behavior overlap, so they wont respond to callers or go to their zones and they keep giving warning calls);

I think with the reworked spook system (#1449974902307160064 message) it could be more fun to have and not ruin your hunts 200m away;

[chilly bay]

I’m gonna be honest I do think cougars should have drink zones. All Animals need to drink after all, but I do think a smart idea to help with this elusive nature is to give them multiple drink zones that way adds that elusiveness so just because you find one drink zone doesn’t always mean they’re gonna spawn there at the drink time they might be at another drink zone

[chilly bay]

Speaking of these, I also have a cool idea for in addition to them getting a rework they could also make them slightly more aggressive, and have a small chance of attacking the hunter and even pouncing Hunter, like the Lions and Tigers…. Well, obviously, the chances of being attacked by a cougar are much smaller than a lion or tiger it’s never zero and on those rare cases they can probably have an aggressive call when they attack you…

AGGRESSIVE ATTACK CALL

https://youtu.be/MEb3oBG3gp8?si=pedr9Cc1eeIotyNa

https://youtu.be/y_pg5oCV7Mk?si=nCHTtx_ZMBtn3IJk

https://youtu.be/ZCra7kFYUgs?si=aO5AxErDuigWMlYh

[finite roost]

Tbf snow leopards also dont have drink zones, plus hyper carnivores get most of their hydration from their prey, so it wouldnt make sense for them to spend 3 hours drinking every simgle day.

I do agree more varied zones like multiple drinkzones would be cool, i might make a post about that at some point. I imagine drinkzones should stay the same though, since changing that makes grinding unviable, which would upset the majority of the playerbase.

[finite roost]

Great One references #5
Battle scars

A huge male, with access to the best territory, prey and females, had to fight vigorously for that. Here are some references for scars that could all be present in the same model to show how harsh nature can be, even for the strongest cats:

1- A big Utah male;
2- A very graphic eye injury on a specimen in Arizona;
3- A recent leg injury on a Wyoming female;
4- A recent face injury, forgot where this is from;
5- A Patagonian female, blind on one eye;
6- Patagonian male named Dark with fresh injuries;

Note that the injuries in game should be healed, i just picked mostly fresh ones to better show what i meant;

[finite roost]

Taxidermy suggestions #1

Larger wall mounts

Now that more varied mounts are a thing, it would be cool if we could put larger species in there. Cougars could be the ones to introduce that change.

https://thetaxidermystore.com
https://all-taxidermy.com
https://taxidermyplanet.com
http://www.deercreekwildlifestudio.com
https://www.allenpalermotaxidermy.com
https://www.coueswhitetail.com

[finite roost]

Taxidermy suggestions #2

Skull mounts

Another cool type of mount would be the skull mount, which could be expanded upon for other predators and some ungulates; There are many ways to display skulls, and they can even be painted or customized in some unique ways.

https://all-taxidermy.com/
https://andreablasichsculpture.square.site
https://creeltaxidermy.com
https://seniena.lt
https://www.artisticwildlifecreations.com

[chilly bay]

I’m just gonna leave this here https://discord.com/channels/393040947006406657/1420913799111774382

[finite roost]

nice

[finite roost]

New Way of The Hunter cougar model

It just released and is already in 3 maps. Plus, it looks better than ours. We really should step up our game.

[faint copper]

This puma has a different vibe. The Cougar from the Planet Zoo.

[finite roost]

Balance suggestions #4

Spook rework
I want to suggest a change to the spook mechanic, since its one of the major complaints the community has against predators. Currently, predators spook other animals from about 100m. My proposed change is:

Prey will trot away from predators if they get under 40m of them; From 40m to 100m, they will just go in Alert;
Lynxes and bobcats can only spook class 6 and below (they have been recorded taking down reindeer and mule deer, for example);
Pumas cant spook bears and class 9 animals, just make them go alert;

[faint copper]

I like how animals sound an alarm when they sense predators nearby. It lets me know they’re close even when I can’t see them.

[finite roost]

Yeah thats really cool, i just don't like how they will run away even if the predator is just passing by and really far from them. They should definitely keep the warning calls tho

[finite roost]

**Taxidermy suggestions #3

Pedestals**

Another alternative for small platforms are pedestals, which can be just a torso mount or a full body mount in a vertical pose; Again, goes for all species but this is a puma post;

http://www.bigcattaxidermy.com
https://www.AmysTaxidermy.com
@royalpeaktaxidermy
https://www.coueswhitetail.com
https://kanati.com
https://www.staglianotaxidermy.com

[finite roost]

**Visual suggestions #5

Sheathed claws**

Another very important model update pumas and all other cats should get is their claws being sheathed while they aren't attacking. The reason their claws are so sharp is because they don't touch the ground all the time like dogs do. The only living cat that has unsheathed claws is the cheetah, because it needs them to create more traction while running.

By making claws a different part of the rig, there could be animations and mount poses where they are retracted or not, just like the Dusky grouse.

On another note, their paw anatomy is also very wrong, a topic I can go more in depth later;

Puma
Tiger
Maltese bobcat
Eurasian lynx

[finite roost]

**Visual suggestions #6

Fixing the derpy face**

Not only pumas, but every older cat species in the game have this same problem: Their mouths never fully close. Here i show a puma and an eurasian lynx, but I'm pretty sure lions and bobcats have the same problem too. The latter also has its upper canine teeth sticking out for some reason.

[finite roost]

**Visual suggestions #7

Fur types**

So my first message here was forwarded from another server I use to write my texts on, therefore I cannot edit them. In this post however I will go more in depth, showing new variations that may or may not be map exclusive, if the devs decide to differentiate both subspecies.

Tan (common, rework), a Mexican male in the picture
Brown (common), a female from Alberta
Gray (common), a male from Argentina
Red brown (common, rework) a young male from Costa Rica
Light (common), young individuals from Chile
Dark gray (uncommon), a large male from Chile
Silver (uncommon, rework of the current gray), a female from Chile
Retained spots (rare), a female from Florida

[finite roost]

**Taxidermy suggestions #4

Multi mounts**

As an apex predator, cougars have many cool interactions with other species, but currently they lack multi mounts to showcase that. Here, I will show some that could be added to the game, feel free to share ones you like.

-# https://rwtaxidermy.com
-# https://Animalswildllc.com
-# https://kanati.com
-# https://www.proxibid.com
-# https://www.dreamkeepertaxidermy.com
-# https://www.monstermuleys
-# https://www.mbauction.com
-# https://www.mitchcaintaxidermy.net
-# https://www.gameandfishmag.com

[finite roost]

**Balance suggestions #5

Predator interactions**

Pumas interact and compete with many other predators across their range, and some of them are present in the game. As we can see with Eurasian lynxes and gray wolves in Medved, they dont really interact with each other, which breaks immersion. Here, I suggest a system following the same principles of my prey spook rework suggestion, but with different ranges;

-Bobcats, coyotes and <3 should trot away from a puma if under 30m. From 30-70m, they will just be in alert and make warning calls;
-Bears should trot away from under 20m of a puma. From 20-60m, they should just be in alert;
-4 or more wolves should make a puma trot away from under 40m. From 40-100m the puma would just go in alert.

Here are some IRL interactions i will post to illustrate my point:

-Mountain lion chasing away a black bear in British Columbia
-Reports of solo or small pack of wolves being killed by pumas
-# https://www.researchgate.net/publication/279438536_Gray_Wolves_Canis_lupus_Killed_by_Cougars_Puma_concolor_and_a_Grizzly_Bear_Ursus_arctos_in_Montana_Alberta_and_Wyoming
-Report of a female puma being killed by 8 wolves
-# https://www.biodiversitylibrary.org/partpdf/357045

[regal dawn]

someone's probably already said it but they should act like snow leopards or tigers. they arent elusive like they are irl

[finite roost]

Cool example of dimorphism in places with higher weight disparity such as Patagonia:

[finite roost]

Alberta cougar record, 218lbs (99kg)

[finite roost]

209lb (95kg) male shot in Arizona

[chilly bay]

I think the largest one on record was 276lb (125.191 kg) I just can’t remember where

[finite roost]

that one is pretty unreliable considering it weighed that much without its internal organs. there are also some other fairly exaggerated weights for other species in the same table

[finite roost]

A (most likely) transient male sighting in Arkansas. Thought id share it to ask yall, would it be cool if feeders had the chance to attract predators looking for an easy meal?

[finite roost]

Another example of cougars hunting around feeders. A female chasing a feral hog in Texas.

[low marlin]

rn a good idea

[finite roost]

Merry Christmas, via Orange County Outdoors (California)

[somber void]

All of these suggestions are perfect.

You should also send them to the WotH Devs for their next game, and the devs of Ultimate Hunting as that'd be applicable there

Also, for feeding zones, I'd have them appear wherever there's prey and they last for a few days before being eaten. Perhaps you can have a bait mechanic where you leave a deer carcass hanging somewhere like they do for leopards in Africa

[finite roost]

Thank you!

Maybe. Id have to see how their games work before suggesting anything too complex. Plus, from what ive seen they use bought assets so remodel suggestions wouldnt apply.

I was going to suggest baits for carnivores in this post but didnt want to stray too far from the original topic. Ultimately i think feed and rest zones should get reworked to be as "viable" as drink zones, but thats a topic for another post.

[finite roost]

Puma reworks, backfills and GO

[finite roost]

200+ pound cougar shot in British Columbia

https://www.echopress.com/news/mitchell-resident-shoots-one-of-worlds-largest-mountain-lions

[chilly bay]

If I’m not mistaken, the largest cougar ever recorded was 276lbs right?!

[somber void]

Got a source?

Here's what I googled
https://www.boone-crockett.org/bc-worlds-record-cougar