Chamois Remaster and Weight Change

[willow dew]

Welcome back to the third installment of Zach finds out an animal is over/undersized compared to what it should be and makes a feedback thread. This time it is Chamois, which are far too heavy in-game compared to their IRL mass characteristics in New Zealand.

Currently, Chamois bucks have a weight range of 40kg to 65kg and the does have a weight range of 35kg to 50kg. This is far too heavy for NZ Chamois as a whole and is indeed up two twice their anticipated average weights IRL. Indeed, this is even heavier than the weights seen in Alpine populations in much of Europe, with only Carpathian and Caucasian Chamois managing these masses.

Per sources such as the New Zealand Deerstalker's Association, buck Chamois most commonly fall between 25kg and 40kg with some occasionally reaching 40kg to 45kg (although there is no record of them ever exceeding 45kg with weights above 40kg being rare). Meanwhile, does are even smaller at 19kg to 35kg. This reduced weight trend is an extension of the fact that NZ Chamois are frequently 20% lighter or more than European Alpine Chamois of identical age, This means that their current minimum weights are the IRL maximum weights for NZ Chamois.

As such, I propose that Chamois have their weight ranges changes to reflect the above, are renamed to New Zealand Chamois, and receive a remaster to modernize their model and address certain issues like their low poly texture, neck length, and body proportions. However, I do believe they should stay Class 3 due to their small size and the cartridges commonly used on them.

Sources:

https://www.lochinvarsafaris.co.nz/chamois

https://www.kuranui.com/chamois/

https://www.deerstalkers.org.nz/resources/animals/new-zealands-big-game-animals/chamois/

https://www.doc.govt.nz/parks-and-recreation/things-to-do/hunting/what-to-hunt/chamois/

[sleek stone]

I do love these little fellas and the fact that they made me think that they were goats for multiple years I was not mentally prepared to learn that they were antelope😂🥀

[willow dew]

they're very neat animals! here's to hoping they get the justice they deserve

[sleek stone]

Definitely! They are beautiful little critters but I wish they were more fluffy like how they are in real life. And in general, I wish they would thicken the necks on most the animals.

[willow dew]

same here; recent models show they can do proportions extremely well, especially on game like bighorn sheep. So, I'm confident they can do these little guys justice now, its just a matter of the fact that the current model is harshly showing its age

[sleek stone]

This is very true, the animals and maps in the recent years have gotten so much better I think they should take a year or 2 from making new stuff and just do touchup on a couple of the older maps or something like that

[willow dew]

absolutely! remasters could breathe some much needed life back into the base game for sure and i feel some serious attention to them could be warranted

[sleek stone]

Yeeee!

[restive gate]

This alongside maybe a G1 Chamois...PLEASE EW 🙏

[thorn sentinel]

The largest subspecies of chamois is the Chartreuse chamois, weighing between 50 and 60 kilos. Yes, the others are also heavy. However, several studies indicate that the Chartreuse chamois is heavier, more massive, and has larger horns and a larger head than most other subspecies, so only the ones you mentioned are truly similar. It's not the longest, though; it can reach 1.10-1.30 meters in length and, according to some studies, between 80 and 90 cm in height. But in terms of weight, these same studies, which are admittedly rare, state that it is the most significant.

[hollow spade]

I would be very happy!

Distinct fur coloration for each subspecies of chamois:

• Balkan Chamois
https://discord.com/channels/393040947006406657/1247766230530789447
• Alpine Chamois
https://discord.com/channels/393040947006406657/1259895162860212275
https://discord.com/channels/393040947006406657/1082749828796264449
• Carpathian Chamois
https://discord.com/channels/393040947006406657/1083899941186969640
• Caucasian Chamois
https://discord.com/channels/393040947006406657/1117315981849669662
• Anatolian Chamois
https://discord.com/channels/393040947006406657/1158252437359038535
• Chartreuse Chamois
https://discord.com/channels/393040947006406657/1259895162860212275
• Tatra Chamois
• Apennine Chamois
• Cantabrian Chamois
• Pyrenean Chamois

[hollow spade]

From the Book titled ‘Mammals of the World’.
Key:
208) Pyrenean Chamois (Rupicapra pyrenaica)
209) Abruzzi Chamois (Rupicapra ornata)
210) Cantabrian Chamois (Rupicapra parva)
211) Alpine Chamois (Rupicapra rupicapra)
212) Carpathian Chamois (Rupicapra carpatica)
213) Asia Minor Chamois (Rupicapra asiatica)

[thorn sentinel]

My map also includes the Pyrenean chamois; we have another name for it, the isard.

[hollow spade]

Also in Spanish: Gamuza, Rebeco, Sarrio.

[thorn sentinel]

There is also a Cantabrian version of the Pyrenean chamois in the Cantabrian Mountains in northern Spain.

[hollow spade]

The Cantabrian, Pyrenean, and Apennine subspecies are the Southern Race.

[thorn sentinel]

Yes, that's true, because all three are located in southern Europe.

Given that France has the most chamois subspecies, I think it's a good candidate for chamois improvement. There's the Chartreuse chamois, the Pyrenean chamois, and the Alpine chamois.

[lilac nimbus]

I would say the info is solid, I will ask around the NZDA early December or maybe send some emails to see what the club thinks.

FYI, I don't think "New Zealand chamois" would be a scientifically backed name given there is no recognised separate species/subspecies for NZ animals. But if the devs have used casual designations before it probably doesn't matter

[willow dew]

That is very true, the moniker likely wouldnt stick but they are distinct in their significantly smaller bodymass. Thanks again for the help! I'll be on the lookout for what you find.

[lilac nimbus]

My mate said tahr 140kg and chamois 65kg, but also said he isn't sure. Most hunters don't weigh the animals, it's not that important

[hollow spade]

Here the text translated from the paragraph marked with a red circle ⭕️:

The weight of an adult varies greatly depending on the subspecies considered and, within each, on the animal’s age, health condition, habitat, season, and the availability of food. Thus, for an adult male Alpine chamois in good health, the weight during the good season can range between 35 and 50 kg (65 to 100 kg for the ibex). However, the heaviest male chamois, such as those from the Carpathians in Romania, can reach 60 kg and may even exceptionally attain 65 kg between 6 and 9 years of age. The female of this species is lighter, weighing between about 25 and 38 kg.
In the Pyrenean chamois, which is clearly lighter, the male weighs between 25 and 40 kg, and the female only between 20 and 32 kg. To compare both species in terms of size and weight, it can be noted that a male Pyrenean chamois is smaller than a female Alpine chamois and does not weigh much more than the latter.

[willow dew]

Awesome! Thanks for the additional information, helps the thread a ton.

[hollow spade]

It’s a photo from the monograph about the chamois that I own, titled El rebeco norteño y sureño by Éric Weber.

[pallid vine]

I believe the subspecies of Chamois that we do have in NZ is the Alpine Chamois

[lilac nimbus]

Which is the same one that came from Austria, not something separate

[daring kraken]

They’ve simply become morphologically smaller, likely due to a lack of resources in their habitat on the island. Similar to an island dwarfism situation. Genetically they’re the exact same.

[lilac nimbus]

Lack of resources, competition with tahr, possibly low genetic diversity. Various potential reasons

[slender narwhal]

funnily enough a lot of the animals we have here in tassie experienced island gigantism instead of dwarfism
but yess i need this it'd make me actually hunt them LMAO

[willow dew]

thank you! i like how animals either get tiny or huge when they get stuck on an island

[slender narwhal]

yeah one of the more common ones that i know of is the tasmanian wedge-tailed eagle, its the biggest subspecies of wedge-tailed eagle with the largest known individual being a female shot in the 1960s with a wingpsan of over two metres

[willow dew]

good lord

[willow dew]

Added update for the Chamois weights, this is a table showing the spread of carcass weights of hunted Chamois in New Zealand from a journal article Physical Size, Condition, and Demography of
Chamois (Rupicapra rupicapra L.) in the Avoca
River Region, Canterbury, New Zealand.

This demonstrates average adult weights significantly lower than the in-game weight range and is towards the bottom end or even below the minimum weights purported in other sources.

The full article with this table can be accessed at these links via PDF:

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/03014223.1986.10422646

https://rsnz.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1080/03014223.1986.10422646

In my opinion, this should recieve serious consideration given the presence of actual biological data showing how much smaller Chamois in NZ are IRL compared to in-game.

As an added note, the Avoca bucks are unusually small, likely due to resource scarcity and insufficient/improper food in their area. Chamois from the other regions are more representative of typical individuals.

[slender narwhal]

ooo

We have a place called Avoca in tassie too lmao
they're so much smaller its insane

[willow dew]

At this point the weight change seems absolutely necessary, cause the in-game max is over 3 times heavier than the average of these 4 populations

imagine if we had 300kg whitetail deer or 680kg black bear

[slender narwhal]

Yeah definitely, hunting games should have realistic stats especially with things like this and this probably should have been considered while they were making the models/animal 😭

[willow dew]

This is also almost solely pertaining to very old animals too, so it seems to be a problem of the old/original team doing very poor research for some animals

[slender narwhal]

a lot of variation exists even just between states for some species like whitetail as far as i've heard
as you said the weights on newer animals seem to be a lot better ye

[willow dew]

On newer animals they're almost entirely on mark and maybe off by a handful of kg either direction yes.

[lilac nimbus]

By 1960 chamois occupied most of the southern alps and by the 80s, tahr had been culled for 20 years, so I don't see why chamois should be that small then tbh, even eviscerated. 40 year old study, but the main thing that's changed for chamois now is they've spread a bit further north and a bit further south

[willow dew]

REVISION:

It appears this study used eviscerated carcasses with the organs removed and some decomp present, massively decreasing body weight. As such, the previously advocated for weight ranges of 25 45kg for bucks and 19 to 35kg for does still stands.

associated table and link provided to me by @lilac nimbus https://archive.org/details/handbookofnewzea0000unse/page/382/mode/2up

[daring kraken]

I mean a 300kg buck is insane, but Whitetails max weight should be around 175-200kg, seeing as the largest bucks are around the 400 pound mark.