Realistic “Effective” ammo range

[foggy lion]

As someone who has fired guns and all sorts of calibers all my life, it puzzles me this realistic hunting game has a very poor time when it comes to fire arm balance especially for classes, effective range, and energy transfer aka damage / penetration.

A lot of the fire arms in the game have far less than have the “effective range” than they should have in real life.

Great example: .223 / 5.56 effective range is 500 yards.
.308 should be 800

.44 mag should be 250 out of a lever action rifle.

And so on. Why gimp the player for using whatever they want by toning down the penetration and damage at range? It makes no sense.

It should reinforce good shots taken at longer ranges vs penalize for them.

[bitter shadow]

I’m not sure when we’ve ever been able to shoot at 800 yards in this game…

[fierce thunder]

I’d guess part of it is the render distance being so low (410ish Meters/450ish yards) but yeah it’s a bit goofy

[foggy lion]

I don’t see why they can’t upgrade the game for us on next gen consoles and so on. Next gen has been out for what 4-5 years? Will they wait until the next generation of consoles? The game can be, and should be upgraded to include better rendering and so on.

[bitter shadow]

Because the game was made for last gen consoles…PS4 and PS5 run the exact same game. There isn’t a specific next gen upgrade for the game and frankly I see no reason for there to be one, especially if it will take away from development time on new maps and content.,

[foggy lion]

Considering this is one of their better titles, since the Angler had flopped, I don’t see why they wouldn’t want to put more effort into the game. Next gen with updated graphics and the like would only enhance it, not belittle it. Older gen users could still play on it, but for us newer gen users we could get updated FPS, and other simple amenities

[fierce thunder]

I think they’d basically have to remake the game if they did that and considering moving progress in this game has historically been unstable they prolly don’t think the risk is worth it. Plus optimization is already a problem for folks with lower end rigs, the upgrade would most likely push those folks out entirely as well.

[foggy lion]

The support for older gens will end at some point. I hate to sound elitest, but I bought a higher end console for the use of its higher end.
It’s merely my opinion an upgrade is due, make it optional if they think it’ll break things like process and so on. But as it is now there’s plenty of mass bugs, and Xbox has its share of them. Other companies are making the next gen versions.
But the devs are making feeders that don’t even work on all animals, like how the bear feeder doesn’t attract wolves somehow -_-

[fierce thunder]

Then buy next gen games? Cotw is 8 years old and is built on the apex engine so it’s not like they can just jump to UE5 with ease, even UE4 games struggle to make that change.

[foggy lion]

I do buy next gen games. Cotw is that old yes. But at the end of the day they should up render range and bullet effectiveness at the very least.
And toss in a better ranging mechanism. Like perhaps being able to sight scopes in at 100 yards / meters so you can use the ranging dots in scopes correctly..

[vocal rock]

Honestly, id pay for a full blown ammo rework if they added at least one cartridge for each ammo type.

Gimme a subsonic .223 round for class 1-2 that makes it manual reloading for all of the .223s

A .270 round with a lighter bullet for class 2-3

AMMO FOR THE LEVER ACTIONS THAT ACTUALLY FREAKING WORK AND DONT HAVE A STUPID RANGE RESTRICTION THAT CRIPPLES THEM

[ember sinew]

You are completely right and I agree with you.

If people are worried about lower end rigs not running it make draw distance adjustable with the adequate performance warnings. I don't care about someone with a shtbox PC from 2014 not being able to run the game. That is not my problem, and my enjoyment shouldn't be gimped because of the lowest common denominator.

[foggy lion]

Better yet why not differentiate grain weight? Projectile type?

[vocal rock]

Way of the hunter tried it and its not good there either.

[foggy lion]

Well the silly class system doesn’t make a lot of sense. Like a 6.5 creedmoor being a 4-8 and not a 3-8

[vocal rock]

And a .30-30 not being a 3-8

[foggy lion]

Exactly my point.

Not to mention the fact, hornady LeverEvolution exists, which both outputs higher FPS out of level guns, but doesn’t degrade their knockdown power.

My .35 rem (which I wish they would add to the game, pretty much is a magnum .30-30) has a significant amount of power out to about 275~ yards then it starts to dip quick, being rough to use past 350

[vocal rock]

The weapons are way too restricted and forced to be unreasonably weak to perform as well as they should and the class of animals is incredibly messed up aside which causes more trouble

[foggy lion]

I think it’s also insane that .22 hornet is so… weak.. like it’s not a .223 of course, but it should be 1-3 and .223 1-4

Plus the .22 caliber guns kick farrrr to aggressively in game. They aren’t .22-250s or .25-06

Like I could nitpick all day. I would honestly set aside a weekend day, and sacrifice my irl hunting for that day, to go over ballistics and hammer out a lot of these problems with the devs.

I can say that they got .44 mag in the lever action fairly accurate at least.

But my poor 7.62x54r.. look how they massacred my boy! A slightly less powerful .30-06, and can only do 3-7 with TERRIBLE damage / penetration.. with only 1 bullet type available too..

I would love to see a 9mm get added to the game.

Nor do I condone this for purely monetization sake.. but I would have little issue paying for the 2-3 gun packs for $7.99 just to get my fire arms added / calibers properly balanced.

(Devs add .357, .35 Remington, .444, and .219 zipper lever guns please)

[dawn grail]

I just want to be able to make long shots that are entirely doable IRL. Games a decade older than this one have made passable bullet drop and render/range coding for 880 yds. There are only a few areas on a few maps this would even be practical, but the point still stands if it can be done, and the game is actually about realism, and not just a hunting game, should be a goal to work towards.

[foggy lion]

So you want ranges appropriate for calibers. Like 1200 yards or meters for a .300 win mag.

[dawn grail]

never said we could, just that we can't and I want to. weird assessment.

[dawn grail]

nah I mainly just wanna be able to shoot inside the realm of possibility for what's realistically possible with a hunting rifle, quality ammo, and decent optic since the devs claim to be going for realism.

this is entirely ignoring that the mil dots and drop for the argus and other scopes isn't actually done correctly. shooting a good group at a grand isn't easy, but doing it at 600-700yds is very possible.

[foggy lion]

I knew what you were getting at, I’m just saying .300 win mag is that “reach out and touch them” round.

But yes it would be nice.

[foggy lion]

Also for the scopes, I mentioned it previously. Why not allow us to set range as is? But make them correct values for each measurement systems that way you can use the dots correctly.

such as:
50, 100, 150, yards or
100, 200, 300 yard etc. same for meters though.
Would allow for FARRR better targeting at range, instead of guesstimating.

[dawn grail]

it's not even that the increments are bad, its that the listed mils (as in milli-radians) for the non-hyperion scopes don't actually match up for what the drop would be at that range. there is at least one guy that broke down the ballistics math step by step.

and with the reticles pack its just a crapshoot now, you can't actually make a dope sheet for proper zeroing and have it match up with where your bullets punch paper at all.
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2428541789

I know I'm kinda getting a little sidetracked but it is pretty relevant to an actual effective range and not just a PBR toggle like we have now. you'd need the optics that go with it to actually be accurate to those same ranges.

[foggy lion]

Bumping so devs see it, given they just released a survey

[vocal rock]

Oh I went over this in detail with that survey

[foggy lion]

Same. Made sure if they had ballistics questions to message my discord.

[vocal rock]

No reason at all for CotW's weapons to be so ridiculously underpowered and class locked. Way of the Hunter has terrible ballistics as well but at least you aren't punished for using a rifle you like

[foggy lion]

Right

[dawn grail]

I can somewhat respect the devs choice to not reward players as much for using the rangemaster .338 on rabbits, as there is such a thing as overkill, but the way they go about it sometimes doesn't make sense.

[vocal rock]

Right, but .300 win mag and .338 are incredibly popular deer rifles in the western US and some guys.

I personally hunt black bear and elk with a .30-30 every year. Never had a failure or had to track too far

[foggy lion]

Yes I get that, but a 6.5 credmoor being 4-8 and not 3-8 is odd.

Then 7.62x54r is so weak, when it’s a very similar to .30-06

Or 5.56 / 2.23 not being 1-4.. etc

[dawn grail]

For sure, it seems like the classes ammo can hit could be adjusted much more realistically.

[dawn grail]

don't even get me started on how much of a joke shotgun ballistics and drop are.

[stable raptor]

Render range and ballistic drop performance are separate entities from each other.

There’s a lot of potential for polishing up various calibers.

I get that a render range increase is not a simple hurdle, but hobbling ballistic performance doesn’t seem like an appropriate alternative for a hunting game advertised as a hunting simulator.

[vocal rock]

Being realistic, is there any chance they touched up 12ga ammo for this release?

They didn't do crap for the .30-30 when AR came out so I sincerely doubt they care enough to do this one

[stable raptor]

Yeah, when I saw what the new firearm was a beautiful semi shotgun, I thought, “Oh sh#t, here we go.”

[vocal rock]

The 336 is my go to hunting rifle for everything from whitetail to elk. Seeing what they did to it with AR' so called "upgrade" legitimately ticked me off

[stable raptor]

I understand the balancing of the base weapons, especially when the game was relatively new.

But I don’t understand when a weapon DLC that you’ve purchased, seemingly degrades in performance at some point over time.

If you pay for a DLC weapon, shouldn’t it be exempt from nerfing down the road or at least come with a disclaimer.

[vocal rock]

Yes, but they never say it. Its always a shadow change and they don't talk about it because yes, if you pay money for something it shouldn't change whenever they feel like it

[dawn grail]

a shotgun that takes almost a full second for the birdshot pellets to travel 120yds

[vocal rock]

Comparison of penetration, no bow perks

Comparison of 7-9 rifles (dlc vs vanilla ammunition)

[foggy lion]

It would be nice for all the shotguns to get a touch up. We should also be allowed to get tube extensions. 10 gauge feels so weak. Same with 16 gauge.

[foggy lion]

They’ve made all lever guns exceptionally weak.. and it’s really annoying.

[vocal rock]

Im convinced they either did no research at all or at least one of the devs is seriously prejudiced against them

Its the kind of bad that makes me think its an intentional hatred.

[foggy lion]

Right?

[vocal rock]

I don't want it misunderstood.

The .30-30 is no anti-material rifle masquerading as a deer gun. Its not a fast bullet and the farthest id shoot it at any animal is about 250m. But theres no legitimate reason it shouldn't have the same zero at short and medium distance that all the rifles have. Its got a hundred year long record for taking everything North America has in terms of big game. Double lungs on a black bear within 200 yards is COMMON

The .45-70 is very much the same situation. It hits like a truck and its still a popular choice for grizzlies and moose after a hundred years. They got the Coachmate's model right, but it should use the same scopes as tbe Laperriere Outrider.

.30-30 should be a 3-8 given its all around stronger than the .44 magnum.

.45-70 should be a 6-9 with much better penetration than the 7mm, that heavy bullet is not stopping for a a bone or two. This cartridge is KNOWN for massive penetration, like 6 feet in a straight line. That's why its used for charging grizzlies, ITS A ROADBLOCK WITH REACH

[foggy lion]

I agree.
.30-30 should have it’s penetration increased by 5% and its damage by 10%
Class 3-8
I don’t know if I’d say a .30-30 is stronger at short range over a .44 mag out of a level gun though. At ranges above 200 yards, then yes, it’s more likely to have more power.

.45-70 should be increased in damage by 8%
Class 6-9

All lever guns currently in the game should be effective to at least 250 yards.

(Personally I’d take a .30-30 to 400 yards comfortably, and a .35 rem to 500.)

The ballistics just feel like random balancing over what they should be, which is true to real life.

[foggy lion]

That doesn’t seem right, that looks more like handgun stats.

My chronograph’d generic .44 mag has come out of a 20 inch barrel at 1978 fps on average

Out of a marlin 1894

[vocal rock]

.44 gets better with a full size 20" barrel but it still doesn't beat out the .30-30, it just wasn't designed as a rifle rould so it kinda lacks a bit.

.444 Marlin on the other hand, that's a beast all its own

[foggy lion]

Heh. I might’ve just gotten a 1998 Marlin .444, it’ll be to the store on Friday 🙂

but that’s why I said .44 mag under 250~ yards should give out more energy, maybe even up to just 200, but 44 mag slams.

Just my opinion, but .444 > .45-70

[vocal rock]

. 444 was made to be the modern .45-70 but tbey didn't account for people using regular .44 magnum bullets that tear apart at rifles velocity. Gave the cartridge a bad name it didn't deserve but the reputation stuck in a lot of.places

[foggy lion]

What? Who told you that? Because even in reloading data books, they take the same bullet.

[vocal rock]

The two old coots who hunted with them where i grew up.

Im.pretty sure their lead bullets were the problem nowadays tho

[foggy lion]

Oh yeah, I never fire just pure lead, that is bad for pretty much any barrel as far as I know.
I wonder what the fps is for the hornady .444 tho.

[foggy lion]

Got my .444 in, she’s a beautiful rifle. And one helluva round.