Fix the Respawns, not the Tents

[daring topaz]

Whatever is going on with the respawns should either be reverted or changed to less time such as 5 - 10 IRL minutes to however 20 - 40 IRL minutes. It deters Grinders and Casual players who want to see and shoot animals or have them back in their zones for another rotation. I will make this statement, this is a game, people buy it with their own money, thus should be able to play how they wish. If you like shooting 5 deer a day that’s cool, if you like shooting 100 deer a day that’s cool too. Grinders, Casual and any other types of hunting are fine. If you think there’s only one then you have a problem. Me and many others enjoy this game to hunt however we wish, whenever we wish.

[supple wigeon]

this is a game, people buy it with their own money, thus should be able to play how they wish.

If someone paid for the game and wants to hunt deer with an A-10 Warthog does that mean the devs are obligated to add one?

Paying for something doesn't mean it is required to conform to your exact specifications. The devs should listen to your feedback but that doesn't mean they have to follow it.

What you SHOULD expect from being a paying customer is that the thing will work as advertised/intended. And that's where we hit a bit of a grey area with this. The devs have never advertised the game as a grinding game (the opposite if anything, I'd argue) but through poor communication and quality control they've let it exist for years as a game with grinding, and third party content creators have presented it as such. So now we're at a point where the devs fixing the game to match their intent is actually causing it to stray from what some have perceived as their intent.

There's also the difficulty with the fact that these days games are a product where there's increasingly no "final" product, and they're constantly changing. No one minds when those changes are for the better, but "better" is of course hugely subjective.

[thin mulch]

Strong points and your statement also carries weight & merit. Well done

[thin mulch]

If nothing else I do agree to the respawn time interval adjustment. It is alittle excessive as is.

[mint dagger]

this is a good point. if practical execution starts straying from the intent, waiting 2 years to start "correcting" that is too little too late imo.

[sinful arrow]

I've got 4300 hours.... I love this game.... this is update is terrible.... the devs can like it or not.... the man base of this 7 year old game are grinders... it may not be what was intended but it's what the community has turned the game into... delaying the spawns for the 75% of the community that is keeping the game alive is going to kill the game in my opinion... and honestly what is the goal? Why put trophies in the game that are unattainable?.... the only realistic way to get a GO is to grind.... I know people with thousands of hours not grinding and not a single GO.... how does ew suggest we go about getting these trophies?

[supple wigeon]

the man base of this 7 year old game are grinders... the 75% of the community

Where are you getting these numbers from?

how does ew suggest we go about getting these trophies?

EW never intended for Great Ones to be something you actively pursue. They were intended to be something vanishingly rare that just happened to you. They never thought people would grind for them.

[supple wigeon]

As I said, I think it's a grey area. Some will thing it's been too long, others will think that doesn't matter.

Personally I'm always going to encourage devs to pursue their own vision over doing what the community wants. I think it leads to stronger games.

[sinful arrow]

Completely made that number up lol.... but putting something in the game that even the most dedicated players couldn't get would be silly.... if that's the intention of ew I wish they'd say that.... it would drastically effect the amount of time and money I spent playing this game

Pursue your vision inspite of the paying customer is crazy to me.... respectfully

[mint dagger]

if you're running a business, the customer is always right in matters of taste.

at the end of the day, though, live service games have to make money to sustain live service. if they think this will make them more money then shrug

[supple wigeon]

It came up in another thread and I believe it was Flinter who said he recalled TreeKiwi (previous CM) saying as much when the first Great One was released. That GOs should be viewed as an "if," not a "when."

[supple wigeon]

I wasn't claiming it was the best business decision. But it's the one with artistic integrity and I respect that.

[supple wigeon]

For all we know they have metrics telling them that they actually make more money from non-grinders. 🤷

[sinful arrow]

Jaxys words just haven't seemed to pair up with ews actions lately.... and i think that's where a lot of people's frustration comes in too...

[mint dagger]

I don't blame Jaxy for that, I'm sure he's not the final say in every decision being made and there are are things out of his control he's unhappy with too.

[wanton cedar]

If doesn’t matter if there’s one grinder or 5000, they want to support both play styles

[supple wigeon]

They want to, or you think they should?

[wanton cedar]

They want to, Jaxy said as much in the hunting the lodge. If you haven’t yet, I implore you to watch that stream, lot of the stuff from these threads got clear cut answers.

[waxen dagger]

Exactly. I've been trying to say this. Also is this not a recycled post?

[mint dagger]

there are a lot of active threads so its unavoidable that some of them run kinda parallel at times.

[marble shard]

I agree with this, unnecessary update

[formal widget]

They patched a Bug that allowed a tiger to be hunted every 1 or 2 minutes, the first animal with Endangered category added, what should have been the rarest and most challenging animal to hunt in the game became the easiest and a mockery for the marketing that they did during the launch...
I think it was a more than necessary correction and they finally admitted that the instarespawn mod used for grinding was an exploit

[supple wigeon]

I mean, he did say several times that they support players who want to grind. But I also wouldn't expect a CM to say anything to the contrary.

I found it interesting that he said (and repeated) that the devs still have a concept for the game which they're sticking to, that there will be more changes, and that not everyone will be happy with them. He framed it a little more positively, but that was the gist. That to me suggests there could be more changes ahead that impact grinding. We'll see, though.

He also said a couple times (in reference to need zone times being approximate) that shooting a bunch of animals that are standing still at a set time isn't hunting. Which to me seemed like a risky thing to say in this context, because to me that essentially describes grinding.

[jolly tree]

TBQH, if they hadn't made tiger spawns more spaced out, I would've been aggressively voting against any further illegal-to-hunt-IRL animals.

[steep hollow]

If Sundarpatan only had animals that could legally be hunted in Nepal, we would still have a big cat species that produced several maneaters, it would just be a few hundred pounds lighter with a spotted coat (Indian Leopard) and 2 bear species (Sloth and Asiatic Black) and zero blackbucks (Illegal to hunt in Nepal IRL due to a very small population) to name some examples, not that I would have been too upset

[marble shard]

Yes, but they didn't need to move the tents, that's where they made the tigers very easy to hunt.

[supple wigeon]

btw I noticed that at around 40 min in the stream he seems to say that the ratio of non-grinders to grinders is 8:1. If it's true that only around 10% of players grind then that's quite a bit off from the perception I've seen from grinders (who are very quick to say "most," and someone in this thread even said 75%!).

[formal widget]

It was all part of the same mecanic combo that made hunting much easier and contributed to the state the tiger was in.

[waxen dagger]

Yes they did. That was a bug

[waxen dagger]

They're sticking to a game development business formula it seems. If they kept the changes and enabled even more easy changes over time it removes challenge, players get bored and don't play any more. I mean sure people can play how they want which seems to get talked about a lot but without some kind of challenge it isn't stimulating 🤷‍♂️. Makes sense to me anyway

[thin mulch]

I touched on how I felt on that and got alot of backlash for it bc I was worried this was going to start a new trend moving fwd. However I met ppl 1/2 way: they can hunt them n I'll treat it as an encounter bc I really do feel uneasy hunting the Tigers & Snow leopards.

[waxen dagger]

Yeah there's also that. Tigers being endangered and designed to be elusive and yet because of the exploits people were getting rares and even SRs quite often

[wanton cedar]

what I was saying is that the number doesnt matter. most of the people jaxy is talking about there dont watch youtube or go on reddit or go on the discord, they just play, and would have no idea what grinding is, if you were to find out the same percentage in here I think it would be slightly higher, point is, your top 10% of players skill wise should get catered too, and they say as much 🤷‍♀️

[supple wigeon]

Yeah, I got what you meant, I was just adding that because we'd been discussing both the stream and number of grinders (and I haven't seen anyone point out what he said yet).

But hoooold on a minute. Are you saying grinders are more skilled than non-grinders? And not just that, but EVERY grinder is more skilled than any non-grinder?

[shell bloom]

The problem is not adding endangered animals to the game, it's a game, it's fiction, no tigers are getting killed because of this game. There were endangered species in the game before, European bison for example, were almost wiped out and had to be reintroduced through breeding programs, yet they were in the game before and no one complained about them.

The problem is EW not doing anything to address this tiger exploit quickly and instead let people exploit the 3 lake method for a whole month.

Sometimes players find out loopholes devs were not expecting, that's a normal thing, what is not normal is for devs to let such a serious exploit go on for so long. If they really wanted to get this done quickly they could have removed drinking time from tigers until they found out a way to adjust the tiger respawn.

But from a business standpoint this exploit was getting people all hyped up for a rare tiger, and by saying they would "fix it eventually" made people go super FOMO and get the DLC or grind nonstop.

[wanton cedar]

Grinders, at max efficiency are more skilled yeah. Thats just common sense. It’s complete mastery of game mechanics to shoot the most things per hour. Objectively speaking that’s mastery

[supple wigeon]

lol wow. Sorry, but no. Grinders mix-max to have the easiest possible shots with the easiest weapons. Is someone shooting fish in a barrel the "most skilled" because of how many fish they can shoot? I try to be civil here but that is just a bonkers take.

[shell bloom]

Grinding is about efficiency, not challenge. To get something done repeatedly as fast as possible.

But that doesn't mean they aren't skilled outside of grinding. Anyone can add self imposed challenges when hunting for fun, using a certain gun or bow and tracking a rare to a location instead of waiting on a need zone, for example.

[supple wigeon]

I didn't say grinders can't be skilled. I said grinding itself isn't about skill, which you seem to agree with.

[steep hollow]

That sounds like me sometimes, when it comes to self imposed weapon based challenges or restrictions, but the grinding, yeah I am a non-grinder

[shell bloom]

Grinding is also about dedication, to pour the amount of time required to get something done. If the game requires people to do grinding in order to get the max prize of the game, the problem is not on the players that do what it's required, it's on the game for requiring that.

Some people like to play games to get the most out of them, finding out entire formulas on how to max out the chances of getting something (Pokémon shiny hunters for example), it's just their way of doing it. Some people like to finish the game as fast as possible to get a record, the speed runners. Some people like to play casual. It's just different play styles and they're all valid.

[supple wigeon]

Not debating any of that, I'm debating the one guy who said that all grinders are by definition more skilled than all non-grinders.

[shell bloom]

I know, that's why I didn't reply to you, I'm just exposing my opinion on the matter.

[mint dagger]

It's not just risky to say about grinding. if he said that about animals standing still, I'd love for him to go hunting irl in areas that have serious feral hog population.
it might change his perspective if he hasn't yet done that.

Unless I misunderstood the context and he was specifically talking only about what in-game hunting is, a community manager for a video game developer making rigid statements about what is and isn't hunting in a general sense is dangerous ground to tread. I know several of thr partnered content creator communities have real life hunters in them, and I'm sure several of them have a variety of opinions on things such as hunting with an armalite pattern carbine, or how the .450 bushmaster option in the polls might be a more interesting option to hunters residing in straight wall only states.

Apologies if this seems like a long winded comment, but hunters are a passionate bunch and I'd very much like to see the full context of the "shooting a bunch of animals standing still at a set time isn't hunting" comment you said he made. I really hope he qualified that further somehow.

[supple wigeon]

Alright. But in context your responses could easily be interpreted as direct responses to mine.

[shell bloom]

Yes, and I just clarified it was not.

[supple wigeon]

Yes, and I believe that clarification was necessary.

btw I'm assuming that comment was in response to mine even though you didn't make it a reply. 😉

[supple wigeon]

He wasn't talking about real life and neither was I. Also I think "standing still" is probably my phrasing and not the best representation of what he was trying to say.

[mint dagger]

I would caution against saying the game is fictional allows the devs to make endangered species huntable if the devs also claim realism is a priority. there's a fine line of intellectual integrity that needs to be tread there to avoid appearing hypocritical, unless they have clearly defined where that realism begins and ends.

[mint dagger]

he should probably specifucally specify that since a lot of IRL blind and stand hunters may take that as a personal attack.

[supple wigeon]

Honestly I think you're reading into this way too much.

[mint dagger]

well I don't watch the streams because I don't have the time, I can only go off the limited context I am given here.

[shell bloom]

And where would you draw the line? European bison were hunted to extinction and had to be reintroduced, but are okay to hunt while tigers aren't? Why so? I'm genuinely curious about this, because to me it seems a bit hypocritical to be okay with the bison but not the tiger.

[supple wigeon]

I implore you not to get offended by Jaxy based on my paraphrasing of something he said.

[mint dagger]

the real life population numbers as a basis would probably be the easiest line to draw as a starting point. if they wanna introduce hunting things that are IRL endangered, something for example like part of a questline being helping populations recover to the point they can be hunted (think like an unlockable) would be a way to diverge the game universe from the real without being too immersion breaking.

Point being you can't introduce unrealistic things while also wanting your game to stay realistic, it seems kinda flip-floppy to me is all. ftr I don't hunt european bison or tigers in game unless to complete a mission or when aggressed upon.

[mint dagger]

I'm not offended, I just said I hope he qualified that and there was additional context. for clarity, text is a very poor analogue for tone compared to verbal communication and the telephone game only makes retaining the whole context of what exactly was said more difficult. I'll elect to leave it at that.

[shell bloom]

The game is anything but realistic, you have the huntermate, can carry a lot of weapons with yourself, even more with the Pack Mule perk, animal populations never decrease or are affected if you kill too many females. This is okay because it's the game's niche. It just isn't super realistic realistic and that's why many people love it. It's a hunting sim that's more flexible, it loses realism to add more flexibility. Proof is Africa 2.0 with the Big Five is the most requested reserve ever, people really want to hunt elephants, rhinos, leopards etc.

Way of the Hunter is a way more realistic game and that's where it differs from COTW. No huntermate, limit on how many guns you can carry, killing females actually makes a difference in populations etc. It has its niche, but doesn't seem like to be same as COTW.

My main point is that it seems like most people playing COTW don't care about ultra realism and just want fun.

I think at this point claiming the game wants to be realistic is just silly.

Also, I'm not saying one game is better than the other, just have different target players.

[mint dagger]

I respect your thoughts and hope the developers and publishers feel the same way.

[proven arch]

It’s crazy how much streamers are starting to lose interest in this game after that update though

I haven’t seen IBUY stream since after the day the patch came out, and then let alone haven’t seen very many people stream the game in general

[wanton cedar]

The definition of min maxing is making a game perform at peak efficiency or player power, ergo the better you are at grinding, the more efficient you are, the more skilled the player. There is no animal that takes actual skill to take down in this game. Skill comes from mastering mechanics and taking more and more shots on animals, something grinding players will end up doing more of.

[proven arch]

No disrespect to the devs but if your going to do timed respawns, at least make it so the respawns come back a lot faster than they are right now

[shell bloom]

If it was fixed 10 min I bet most people would be more than okay with it, even 15 min. But the variations are off-putting, sometimes it's less than 10 min, sometimes more than 20 min. Over 20 seems a bit excessive.

[mint dagger]

especially for animals with lower base populations.

[supple wigeon]

Skill lets you overcome a challenge. Grinding does everything possible to avoid a challenge. You can call that efficient, maybe even clever (for the first people who came up with it anyway), but it's not skilled

I've got a gold sheep shot on the fly with the Gahendra while it was moving and hardly visible through dense foliage that's worth 50 diamonds shot by a grinder with a scoped AR and drink zone broadsides.

[mint dagger]

maybe y'all just have definitions of what a skill is. hitting targets (specifically what you intend to hit) is widely considered a skill and yet it is the base requirement for progressing in this game.

[supple wigeon]

If hitting a target is a skill, would you agree that a more difficult target takes more skill? Which of the targets that I described would you say is the more difficult?

[mint dagger]

Personally, I try not to "rank" skill because one inevitably starts trying to grade players by their skill pedigree and that just invites the dilemma of figuring out which players to listen to and what kind of skill matters to you when making decisions, which ends up being zero sum (someone always loses). do I think it's more difficult to hit a 400yd headshot on a sprinting moose compared to 100 moose kills an hour? Sure, but I don't think game updates should be made by putting one above the other in importance.

[supple wigeon]

I'm not doing that. The person I'm debating with did that. They both ranked all grinders as more skilled than non-grinders, AND said that means they should be catered to by the devs.

[mint dagger]

I didn't say you did, I'm merely answering your question.

[shell bloom]

Tangentially but not strictly a response to to the skill conversation, but one of the things I love about WOTH is that it has 4 different difficulty modes, so anyone who wants a more relaxed playstyle can have it while someone who wants a real challenge can also have it.

[supple wigeon]

What changes between the modes?

[mint dagger]

thats interesting, I didn't know that. I don't mind it either way, but always wondered why COTW didn't have a difficulty slider like other games commonly do these days.

[shell bloom]

From the wiki page:

Hiker:
Photo mode has extended range
All animal bodies are highlighted in the world after death
Blood trails are highlighted for easier tracking and blood splatters appear far more often
Animal senses = very low

Explorer:
All animal bodies are highlighted in the world after death
Blood trails are highlighted for easier tracking and blood splatters appear far more often
Animal senses = low

Adventurer:
Small game animal bodies are highlighted in the world after death
Blood splatters appear more often
Animal senses = medium

Hunter:
Small game animal bodies are highlighted in the world after death
Blood trails aren't highlighted and blood splatters appear less frequently
Animal senses = high

Ranger:
Hunter sense disabled, photo mode has a limited range, tutorials are off
No animal bodies are highlighted after death
Blood trails aren't highlighted and blood splatters appear less frequently
Animal senses = high

I really recommend this game for those wanting a more challenging and realistic hunting experience, it's pretty fun, it just is rather new and has way less maps than COTW

[mint dagger]

if you've played way of the hunter, which difficulty's animal senses is COTW's closest to?

[shell bloom]

In the easiest mode the COTW animals spook more often, but I haven't tried the other modes yet.

[supple wigeon]

Interesting. I don't think I'd touch animal senses if I had the option unless they seemed very skewed in one direction. And a lot of the stuff with UI assists is possible with CotW's nice UI options (I play without spotting and downed outlines, only glow on tracks, and haven't taken some of the skills that improve tracks). I still wish it had more options, though, like playing without any track highlight feels too tedious for me but I'd love a slider to turn the brightness way down.

WotH seems intriguing but as you say it's earlier in its development cycle so has fewer options. Plus CotW just looks a lot better, especially the remastered animals. And I guess I'm not convinced the herd management makes sense long term? I'll continue keeping an eye on it, though. Thanks for the info.

[shell bloom]

HM in WOTH is also more developed, animals actually age there, and if you shoot older and bigger animals, more higher ranking animals will appear. Meanwhile if you shoot young males and females, populations will decrease. You can't also spam callers, you need to use them at specific intervals, if you spam them the animal will notice something is wrong and spook.

[supple wigeon]

What happens if you do it all properly and your herd only has the highest level males? Does it just stay that way?

[shell bloom]

No idea cause I haven't really done much HM in there. My default animals were very very small but as I waited for the young males to grow up and shot them, more higher ranking males started to appear.

[supple wigeon]

Yeah it seems like an interesting system but my worry is that it inevitably has an endstate where you can "win" it and end up with less variety in your wildlife as a result. If they're all special then none of them are. Feels like a flaw to me but maybe there's some solution to that in the game.

[waxen dagger]

At grinding yes, not the game overall

[wanton cedar]

Hard disagree but to each their own. It’s a single player game, the skill cap doesn’t matter

[waxen dagger]

There's more to the game than just grinding. Grinding doesn't include every game mechanic or knowledge. Missions, weapon ballistics and damage, waterfowl hunting etc

[wanton cedar]

There’s more to the game sure, but I still stand by what I said. Missions are typically just interact with a few items or go somewhere. Let’s be real ballistics and damages are irrelevant? Shoot something once in the lungs with the right gun and it dies full score. I’d argue waterfowl set ups are akin to grinding but I see what you mean there, but my point still stands. Min maxing is endgame skill, and grinding is the biggest outlet for that.

[waxen dagger]

Not really. Think OG mission lines on Hirsch and Layton. I don't see how things are irrelevant when you can do it better. Shooting a diamond moose with a .270 and getting 100% QK is a fun thing to do or a diamond bobcat with a bow

[supple wigeon]

You're the one who brought skill into the discussion.

[safe trout]

When the G1s came out they literally said “most players will never see one of these, maybe one or twice”. It’s meant to be incredibly difficult and unattainable. It’s supposed to be something that only the absolute most dedicated people get. It’s not an obligatory trophy that everyone should get just for playing the game.

[supple wigeon]

I'd say their original idea for the rarity goes beyond GOs being for the "most dedicated" and was really just supposed to be for the luckiest. It wasn't supposed to be something you'd actively pursue.

[drowsy hound]

No, they fcking dont. Grinding tries to avoid as many mechanics as possible, and looking at youtube videos and replicating what is done there is not skill expression in any way. Adding to that, by many comments in this discord it looks like many people collapse at the tought of hunting in difficult terrain area and/or picking up for once a weapon thats not a top rifle (much less a low range pistol or a bow), and I'm sure thats due to grinding culture influence, also each year that passes there are better and better weapons suited for that. There are not challenges in grinding, but there are constant small dopamine hits, so constant that many cannot have patience anymore or play in hard terrain or try to surpass the limitations of their weapon of choice. All of that and more are basic hunting skills.

[sinful arrow]

As a grinder, I also have nearly every dime in the game.... and actively hunt with not meta guns. I don't like this narrative that grinders don't know how to play the game.... you think the people with thousands of hours don't know how to play? Gf bruh

[supple wigeon]

First of all, "knowing how to play" isn't necessarily the same as "having skill." Most grinders probably have a good understanding of how the game works. But most grinding setups use that knowledge to avoid situations where skill is relevant.

Second, can grinders please not take everything so personally? Look at what Talus wrote. They didn't say "grinders have no skill," they said grinding is not an expression of skill. Grind-ING, not grind-ERS. They're talking about the act, not the people.

It would be foolish to say no grinders have any skill in the game. But that's not what Talus is saying and it wasn't my point either. Know what would be equally foolish? To say that every grinder is more skilled than every non-grinder. And someone did say that in this thread, and that's what I was pushing back against.

[sinful arrow]

Yeah agreed of course there are good players that don't grind.... but when "grinders skill" comes up over and over it feels pretentious.... sorry if you didn't mean it that way...

[supple wigeon]

It was a grinder that brought skill into this thread by claiming all grinders are more skilled than all non-grinders, and further claimed that would justify the devs catering more to the grinders even if they're a smaller part of the playerbase. I don't think player skill is relevant to the overall discussion but I also couldn't let an absurd statement like that go unchallenged, so here we are.

[wanton cedar]

Lmfao, you didn’t take my earliest messages in good faith or in the context and then when I made a point you didn’t like you called it ridiculous. I’ve been watching your messages in these threads and I gotta say, you come off as very overly harsh on grinding.

[supple wigeon]

I gave you a chance to clarify what you meant before I reacted and it turned out to be exactly as absurd as I'd first interpreted it, so I'm not sure how you think it's being taken out of context or in bad faith.

Can you point out a specific instance where you think I've been "overly harsh" on grinding? I think I've been pretty level-headed in these discussions but maybe there's room for me to improve.

[wanton cedar]

I don’t think it’s absurd to say that in all honesty. And even if I did, the definition of min maxing is pushing player skill and knowledge to the max, and nothing you say to me is going to change the fact that the most hardcore grind methods are doing precisely that. There is a limited skill ceiling to immersive play because the merit of this game arises in getting better trophies, diamonds, rares, great ones, super rares. That is the metric for success and grinders meet those metrics faster and more efficiently than non-grinders.

Secondly, when debating, you’ve been arguing outside of what the context of the situations have been. It was only after directing you the hunting lodge that it seems you accepted that they do in fact want to support grinders on the dev side of things. I guess what I’m trying to tell you is that at this point in these discussions it’s hard to even decipher what you’re asking for or want to happen outside of debating the grinder vs non grinder debate.

[supple wigeon]

the merit of this game arises in getting better trophies, diamonds, rares, great ones, super rares. That is the metric for success

That's YOUR metric for success. I don't subscribe to it. And yeah, it does appear that it will be pretty fruitless for me to get you to understand what skill entails.

Your entire second paragraph has nothing to do with me being "overly harsh." Would you like to take that statement back and focus instead on the fact that you're having trouble understanding what I'm asking for?

And I didn't quite accept the idea of dev support for grinding the way you suggest. I acknowledged that Jaxy said it, but also pointed out that of course a CM would say that. I don't think it's a great window into the direction the devs actually want to take things.

[wanton cedar]

So we can be told something directly by Jaxy and that doesn’t make it true or valid? If you want more clarification on overly harsh I think it was pretty rude and uncivil to react to my messages with emojis that sent the message that you thought I was being ridiculous and then saying that to other people as well. So no I don’t want to take back that statement, because what you did to me and my messages was overly harsh for the discussion we were having. I’ve also seen you constantly debate grinding but have no inkling as to what your purpose of doing so in these discussions have been. Do you want grinding to stop? Do you want it to be nerfed even more? Do you not like the people who do it?

[supple wigeon]

Okay, so it's not that you think I've been overly harsh on grinding, it's that I hurt your feelings and you think I've been overly harsh on YOU. Well I try to be civil but that's not going to stop me from giving a comment that dismisses 90% of the playerbase as less skilled and less important the ridicule it deserves.

And you apparently haven't been watching me very closely because I've addressed every one of your questions multiple times in the last few days. To summarize: I don't understand the appeal of grinding and will never do it. If other people want to grind, that's fine. I don't mind that the devs nerfed it. I won't mind if they want to nerf it more. I wouldn't mind if they eliminated it entirely, but I don't think they will and that's fine too. I don't hate grinders but I think many of them have shown a gross sense of entitlement in this debate due to their unfounded perception of grinding and grinders being essential to this game's survival. I think the devs should pursue their own vision for the game rather than be swayed by the community because I think that leads to stronger games. I don't think the devs ever wanted CotW to be seen as a grinding game and I think they're taking some steps to mitigate that, which I support.

Does that give you a sufficient understanding of my positions? Can we move on? This thread isn't supposed to be about you and me.

[wanton cedar]

Well for starters, this is a public thread we can debate and me and you and it’s fine. I think what you’re not understanding is that saying 90% of players being less-skilled isn’t a bad thing whatsoever. Games have players of all skill levels that’s not a problem, it’s actually healthy. And on top of that, I never dismissed them, all I was saying was that the top 10% of players voices do matter.

Where now we have something interesting is you saying that you don’t understand grinding and would never do it. If you’ve never experienced these pain points, why discuss them so heavily? Why be dismissive of grinders and call them entitled? You wonder why people feel defensive or that you’re harsh when you say that you wouldn’t mind that grinders got nerfed even more or that it could be eliminated and you wouldn’t care.

Quite frankly, some grinders have overstated its importance. Personally, the whole streamer debate, money making points are dumb. But what I will say, is that in between content, especially with the emerald coast drought (weapon packs don’t appeal to everyone) great one content and grinds are what kept the game alive for streamers and public perception. However, this does not change the fact that grinders have taken a hit this past week, and the current gameplay isn’t as fun. The devs can stick to their vision all they want, sure, but feedback is important too, and they’ve said as much.

[supple wigeon]

I think what you’re not understanding is that saying 90% of players being less-skilled isn’t a bad thing whatsoever

You're leaving out the part where you equate that to non-grinders, which is the bad thing.

Games have players of all skill levels that’s not a problem, it’s actually healthy.

A tangential point that I haven't denied.

And on top of that, I never dismissed them, all I was saying was that the top 10% of players voices do matter.

You're white-washing your original statement. What you said was "your top 10% of players skill wise should get catered too."

If you’ve never experienced these pain points, why discuss them so heavily?

Because I'm allowed to let the devs know that not everyone is upset with these changes.

Why be dismissive of grinders and call them entitled?

I've called them entitled because they've acted entitled.

You wonder why people feel defensive or that you’re harsh when you say that you wouldn’t mind that grinders got nerfed even more or that it could be eliminated and you wouldn’t care.

You're the only one who's called me harsh.

great one content and grinds are what kept the game alive for streamers and public perception.

Grinding dominates streaming content, sure. That's not the same as keeping the game alive.

However, this does not change the fact that grinders have taken a hit this past week, and the current gameplay isn’t as fun.

90% of the playerbase is probably having just as much fun as before.

The devs can stick to their vision all they want, sure, but feedback is important too, and they’ve said as much.

My literal first comment in this thread said that the devs should listen to grinders' feedback. But that doesn't mean they have to implement it.

[wanton cedar]

Then we don’t even disagree on a lot of this stuff, you just don’t like my phrasing, and I certainly don’t agree with a bit of yours. The thing I’ll leave you on here is that there isn’t a need to let the devs know you’re not mad about the changes if the way you play the game isn’t impacted by them at all. I think personally that’s when you should step aside and let the impacted group have the mic, even if they can be a little rowdy and negative about it. I also might suggest that you try grinding for something one of these days, just to understand it, especially if you don’t have a great one and have always wanted one. Broadening your perspective wouldn’t hurt IMO

[supple wigeon]

you just don’t like my phrasing

I think I've been pretty clear that what I don't like is your claim that all grinders are more skilled than all non-grinders. Phrasing isn't the issue.

there isn’t a need to let the devs know you’re not mad about the changes if the way you play the game isn’t impacted by them at all.

Strongly disagree. If the only feedback they saw was from grinders then that might give them an incorrect perception of how important grinding is to the playerbase which could have an effect on future changes that might impact my playstyle.

I also might suggest that you try grinding for something one of these days, just to understand it

I'll have to pass. I've watched grinders before and frankly I'd rather stare at a blank wall than do it myself.

especially if you don’t have a great one and have always wanted one.

Haha I actually just posted another thread where I discuss the fact that I am perfectly fine with never getting a Great One.

[wanton cedar]

You’re perfectly fine never getting the coolest and prettiest animals in them game? Fr?

[daring topaz]

@wanton cedar @supple wigeon take this to DMs please

[supple wigeon]

100%. Doesn't matter to me. As I say in the other thread I'd be excited to get one by pure RNG, but I won't be upset about never getting one at all. And I don't want them to make them easier for non-grinders to get.

EDIT: If you want to discuss this particular topic further we can take it to the other thread. https://discord.com/channels/393040947006406657/1266812348371304610

[wanton cedar]

Don’t think it was dm worthy but can take it another thread sorry Cervid

[daring topaz]

all good, i just want this post to be about the respawn thing

[wanton cedar]

Very fair, for what it’s worth I think your post is the best explanation of where we’re at.

[daring topaz]

oh thank goodness 😂

[shell bloom]

I think the best outcome out of all this would be to add a fixed spawn timer of 10 minutes to all animals minus the tiger, tigers should have a longer spawn to keep them from being grindable. Since, according to EW and Jaxy in stream, the reason for this update was to fix game issues caused by menu reloading and not stop grinding altogether, a fixed spawn timer of 10 minutes would be enough to address both issues. Rather than being instant, it could be acceptable timer, not too quickly to be exploited and possibly cause further and/or additional issues, but also not too excessively delayed so people don't have to sit and wait for too long.

[wanton cedar]

It’d be interesting to know the time for tigers, I was getting one every 5 minutes or so by just hunting their entire home range, I wonder if I do a full check of the map if I can do it continuously that way or not.

[shell bloom]

After the update? 5 min is way too short for a tiger, I think.

[wanton cedar]

No, before the update just going between the lakes I was getting one every 5 minutes, which felt fair to me. I was saying it’d be interesting to know what their respawn time was before and after

[crimson ravine]

Imo the tigers are the only animals that need the respawn timer. Given that they were supposed to be something that wasn't grinded and was rather treated as a challenging hunt

[mint dagger]

no no, I did look at what he wrote. I don't have a dog in this fight either way, but I will point out that he referenced people in this discord in a negative light, then blamed grinding culture as the cause. it's a stretch to not call that personal when culture doesn't create itself, people do.

I'm not gonna debate the merits and demerits of grinding in a thread about respawns, but I will point out when someone else engaged in that debate is trying to obfuscate facts. they WERE talking about the people.

[mint dagger]

I'm fine with animals that are meant to be more scarce having a bit longer respawns, it makes sense.

[drowsy hound]

Grinding culture is the mindset in which the search for max kill efficiency is everything. I'm pretty sure it wasnt a real thing before GO's, and yeah, even veteran players can have that mindset, it would be very foolish to think every player that grinds is not skilled. Looking for efficiency is not a problem per se, but until sundarpatan it was becoming the primary way of gameplay... Grinding can potentially numb the sense of satisfaction of other ways of play, making people not liking at all anymore going to the forest or do a night hunt(and this is why I dont recommend grinding to new players). I would elaborate much more, but I'm a very slow writer and I'm sure that with this message I'm close to "the danger zone of too much offtopic".

About the words like collapse... Yeah, there's no way around that, gotcha. Even considering myself a mixed player because I try to explore everything about the game, I felt very defensive and thats why I was overexaggerating. I'm sorry. I will not talk about this topic here anymore because its not the place. See ya.

[mint dagger]

apology accepted. no harm done. 👌