Martini Gahendra Rifle - Include Class 9

[lone trench]

With the upcoming release of the Sundarpatan map, it was revealed that the new rifle would be able to take animal classes 4-8.
This feedback discussion is to go over the wanted change of upping the maximum class from 8 to 9.

The new map will have three class 9 species, including the much anticipated Bengal Tiger. Though the .577/450 round is not nearly as powerful as most may think, the rifle's cartridge within it's effective range, is still capable and ethical for taking class 9 species. It is comparable to the 45/70 round which can take class 9 species in the game already, though it is on the fence of being able to take them in some people's opinion. However, I feel this is one of those times we should lean into what's better for the game rather than scrutinizing the reality of the gun due to not only the oversaturation of class 4-8 rifles, but also the drastic downsides that come with the Martini. These downsides being: it is a single shot rifle, most likely not able to be equipped with a scope, and having a lower effective range compared to other rifles.

I feel as though when this rifle is released, it will have an extremely short life span and be dropped by the majority of players and retired to their lodge as a wall-hanger. Even those not looking for the best effective loadout, such as myself, will see the gun as too much of a burden to bring out, even just for fun. With the addition of class 9, it has a chance of having a solid place in a larger number of player's loadouts as well as adding an exciting challenge to be able to hunt Bengal Tigers. The theory has been brought up by the community that this choice may have been intentional by the Developer team to help push the idea of ethical hunting for the new Tiger. If this is the case, I and many others, feel this could've been represented in a much better way that doesn't sacrifice the usability of an amazing historical firearm in the game we love.

And for those that are still on the fence of the Martini becoming a class 9 capable rifle, is there really any downside to that change being made?
So far, all I see are the benefits I've listed above and most importantly giving it a fighting chance to not become obscure in the game.

[fleet current]

Making the martini a 9 will make it less of a gimmick rifle and something useable that more people would be using

[loud scarab]

COTW really needs this change so everyone isn't using the same rifles to hunt class 9 animals too, there's very limited options that people can consider to take out in their loadout

[random phoenix]

Something else to consider is the ammunition.

This rifle was initially developed with a much heavier charge of black powder driving the bullet. It was actually originally made for coiled brass cartridges which couldn't handle the force the powder created. Once stronger drawn brass cartridges were used it ended up being an extremely powerful round.

In military service it received complaints about recoil and was described as "vicious and untenable for the average man" so the powder charge was further reduced to help combat recoil. The 82 grain service load was it's weakest loading.

It served in world War 1 as a "Baloon popper" with lighter bullet carrying incendiary charges. The full power black powder loads were popular for hunting in the colonies and carried a reliable reputation for bringing down cape buffalo until smokeless powder and military surplus rifles replaced it

[limpid socket]

Eh. Ever since they released the 10SA shotgun, I've been using the slugs for 9s in the US
For Africa I use the .300winmag sem auto
Everywhere else I just use the 7mm

If the Martini covers 9s then it'll be my go to for Nepal, if not then it'll just be a museum piece I bring out every now and then. I'll probably just use the single shot 7mm for Nepal

Let me ask C&Rsenals Discord what they think, also have a friend in another Discord who actually owns a Martini but idk if it's chambered in .303 or .577/450

[limpid socket]

So most people say it should do more then fine downing things like Buffalo and Bison, one of the guys in C&Rsenal pointed out that in the 1800s, hunters used .45/70 to hunt Bison

And that round in game covers 9s 🥲

[random phoenix]

It should be fine all the way round. It's not considered a good round because of modern standards

[lavish juniper]

The cartridge is well known to be weak and have a hard time penatraiting. I personally think class 8 is perfect

[limpid socket]

If you look up the history of it being used In hunting, especially by the British, it's been documented to be able to take down animals like Buffalo and hippos

[lavish juniper]

With multiple shots and af close range

Back then it was considered weak. All way around its not a good dangerous game cartridge.

[lone trench]

The rounds placement is on the fence irl. the issue with the round being class 8 is that like listed above, the rifle will be immediately outclassed in every category. What do you think will be a downside of them making it a 9 @lavish juniper ?

[lavish juniper]

If you people want a powerful vintage rifle look into .50-120 sharps rifle

[lavish juniper]

It is outclassed by everything it's a outdated blackpower cartridge

[limpid socket]

That is the downside of black powder tbh

[lone trench]

that would be a great future addition. there are plenty of old caliber guns they could add later. but as for now we have this martini. so rather than giving up on it, giving it a slight boost to improve it would be simpler than just waiting who knows how long for a very similar gun just one number up

[lavish juniper]

Realistically it's not a class 9 rifle

It's going to just be a gun you mess around with. It'll never be a permanent addition to a class

[lone trench]

realistically it is on the fence. are you saying that within the rifles effective range that bullet wouldnt be able to pierce the hide and lung of a tiger? there is no doubt that the 450 grain bullet will do enough damage if it gets there, but do you think it could penetrate that hide, muscle, and lung on a broadside?

[lavish juniper]

At 50yrds maybe

[limpid socket]

I think they should make it cover 9s just so people don't mess up their trophies, but make it extremely underpowered, like bridging the line between 8-9

[lone trench]

id say at least out to 150 it would. which the maximum range is 200 anyway

[lavish juniper]

Wouldn't be able to shoot past 100yrds. The game needs all the guns and ammunition completely revamed and class's changed

[lone trench]

again do you think there is a downside to slapping a class 9 onto it? do you think its gonna be some super meta rifle? or that it will make others stop playing through "lack of realism"? or do you think it is a small enough change on an arguable fact that would just be appreciated?

[lavish juniper]

I think wineing is pointless. I also think the cartridge is weak on large and dangerous game. Class 9 has to many animals to truly make the rifle a class 9. You might shoot a bison with it but realistically is too weak for a water buffalo. On the other end with how messed up the game is when it comes to firearms I'm surprised it's not a class 9.

[loud scarab]

We're just discussing the possibility as it's a very fair argument that it should be class 9. It's not whining. As it's been said before it's comparable to a 45/70 which already takes class 9 animals in the game. It's been used on big game as a historical firearm and that's not deniable. For the sake of the game, which COTW Devs admit they have their own scaling system they use, the Martini should be able to take class 9 animals and not ruin the trophy score. The level of effectiveness that it does this isn't even being talked about. You even say yourself you're surprised it isn't class 9 because of how they scale firearms so it makes sense for it to be one. The gun should be given a good chance to be viable in people's loadouts

[lavish juniper]

Funny thing is 4570 can be pushed way harder with modern loads in modern rifles.

[limpid socket]

I just hope they give it a scope atleast if they don't make it cover 9s, make it viable in someway

Or else it'll litteraly be nothing but inventory clutter sadly

[heavy crescent]

Listen I’m excited for it but still disappointed in the gun they decided to add to the map, generally I’m confused on why you’re comparing it to 303 but hey that’s you. But generally I am excited for to see the stats for the weapon because guns that have a high amount of expansion like the ghandera rifle I think it will be fun to use for that reason. I don’t feel like it should be a class 9 weapon as it truly can barely do it and even when used on animals of that culture im afraid it will be lacking due to many reasons that Ive already gone over in #1246927721909714944 because its just got isssues but I think it will still be a fun addition. I’m against it being class 9 due to the fact that the round can’t penetrate effectively, it has very little stopping power it seems like after watching jaxxy beard shoot a tiger with it and it not even flinching. There’s just a lot about the gun that screams not meant for dangerous game. And sure it can be used on them but truthfully do you want to? Or would you prefer some bigger rounds like I mentioned in #1247007140389060689 or even the #1234163261696512082

[heavy crescent]

I wouldn’t truly say it’s comparable to 4570 due to the fact that the martinis 577/450 is just not pushing the same speed or even having anywhere near the ammount of penetration as 4570 has but it will definitely have a lot more expansion which is why I don’t see it as being useful on class 9. And I’m comparing the 4570 to what we have in real life it needs a buff in the game.

This is generally a gun that couldn’t shoot past 100 yards accurately due to no scope, its ability to penetrate anything heavily is most likely delayed after 50-85. And the map it’s being released on has game in the map that I don’t feel comfortable shooting with it. It’s safe to say that I don’t think it should be class 9.

[lone trench]

The image of the round was not so much to directly compare to 303 in performance but just a kind of "poster" image for the discussion. again i am all for larger calibers in other rifles such as the ones in the discussions you linked, but im not trying to focus on what they could add and focus on what they are adding. honestly i would like to use it on dangerous game, when jaxxy shoots a tiger you are right, it doesn't flinch much, but that's just the game. if you don't kill an animal outright and have the "aggressive animal stun" perk most rifles give them the same reaction. just like you said even with it "barely" being able to do it, it is still capable of it. like i said before it is a videogame, liberties can be taken to improve things to small degrees for balance. i am definitely looking forward to the new rifle for the fun of using it, no matter what classes it takes it will be a permanent gun in my loadout, but as someone who plans long term use for it the addition of class 9, even if poor at it, would be a huge help and expansion to its use on hunts

[lone trench]

and like i said to wolf here, is there a genuine downside that will hurt the game if it is made 9? because if it is made 9 it will make a decent portion of the community happy for the fact you can ethically shoot tigers alone. not to mention all the others regarding general viability increase. i get if you wanted realism to a T then its understood it can "barely" take certain large game, but its a videogame, it its not an insane stretch, or an outlandish demand. much like with the other liberties taken in cotw for stretching realism, its for the peoples enjoyment.

[heavy crescent]

I think they would make it class 9 for your reasoning but truthfully if it can’t penetrate well at 125 yards I don’t see myself using this rifle. I’m not saying I shoot everything at range but I am saying in instance of a tiger I wanna be as far away as I can be from that animal.

[lone trench]

and me personally i feel i would gather much more enjoyment out of being able to hunt a dream animal on the game, with one of my all time favorite guns, rather than being able to cite that a rifle i the game is IRL accurate in that it isnt quite ethical to shoot a tiger

[lone trench]

yeah i think it wont have a scope either. the irons look thin enough for SOME distance shots but def a struggle at the longer ranges

[lone trench]

just looked and from stream we are able to see ammos capabilities, actually has a pretty good pen and expansion stat. im surprised

[heavy crescent]

Realistically that round could never do that but hey like you said it’s a video game, those stats would make it OP though I want you to understand that which this gun needs but also that range of 200 feels a little much.

[lone trench]

we were focusing on the wrong end of the classes potter, thos poor 4 class animals dont stand a chance

they will be obliterated

[limpid socket]

Should be downed to 100m, cover 4-9, have lower pen but keep the expansion

Hrrm
Maybe up it to 5-9

[lone trench]

shhhhhh, let me blast those deer, we want more species for the martini, not less

[random phoenix]

We're going to waste so much time arguing about this and the devs more than likely won't change it.

The biggest reason it's considered a weak cartridge is how far hunting weapons have come since it's introduction. We've lost sight of the fact that at the time it was made this was an immensely powerful cartridge that people were more than happy to trust their lives to and it served them well until better cartridges came along.

Yes, there are better cartridges but they don't make this one worse by existing. It was used effectively and can still be effective in the same way today. Remember that at the time this weapon was made 200 yards was considered the pinnacle of marksmanship

[limpid socket]

Maybe I'll use it with the Drilling rifle and a 2-6 pistol

[lavish juniper]

Back then it was considered weak and ineffective.

[random phoenix]

So that's why Woolwich changed the powder charge three times because of complaints about recoil?

[lavish juniper]

Look into jim corbett amd why he didn't like it.

[random phoenix]

High recoil

[lavish juniper]

It had trouble killing a jaguar or leporod I can't remember which

I want you to do some research into this cartridge. It's pretty well known that its underpowered.

[random phoenix]

Also, Jim Corbett was hunting in the 30's when much better cartridges were available and the .577/450 had been outlawed in India at the time.

He didn't leave India until his late sixties and that was because India declared independence. He never visited South America

And yes, I have all 6 of his books

I did research the cartridge. It was first implemented with a full 100 grains of black powder but the coiled brass cases couldn't handle the force. It was powered and eventually changed to drawn brass cases. Soldiers complained the recoil made accurate shooting too difficult. The powder charge was lowered again to 82 grains. When it changed over to cordite the charge was lowered a third time. By WW1 it was largely out of service but was used by balloon poppers. The bullet was cut down to 290 grains with a90 grain charge of incendiary powder for dealing with observation balloons. By the time this rifle was in Corbett's hands it was the weakest if had ever been and this was aside from poorly made soft lead bullets that would not penetrate larger game. With a properly loaded round and modern bullet construction I'm sure it would be just as effective as a good .45-70 load

[lavish juniper]

We're talking about hunting dangerous game. Also the martini was lite making its recoil Impulse sharp and jumpy. The game is set in modern day. It makes zero sense that iv had this same argument multiple times now and can't get anyone to agree with the facts.

[patent smelt]

You can always back out of the conversation

[lavish juniper]

Iv been staiting actual facts. What is with you and saying people should back out of a conversation?

[patent smelt]

Maybe we should all abandon the topic. It doesn't seem to matter how it preforms in real life, its going to preform differently in the game as its been made clear that this game isn't using realistic ballistics

[random phoenix]

One of Corbett's favorite rifles for hunting tigers was a .275 Rigby, which is a 7x57mm Mauser that was renamed so the British didn't give the Germans any credit

[lavish juniper]

This game really needs a 375h&h with handloads it can be used on whitetail and can be used on the big 5 with heavy loads.

[random phoenix]

Game just needs more ammo options for all the rifles/handguns

[heavy crescent]

It did not have high recoil

And does not

[random phoenix]

"I was armed with an old Martini Henry rifle, a weapon that atoned for its vicious kick by being dead accurate- up to any range."

Jim Corbett, Maneaters of Kumaon, page 5.

[heavy crescent]

And if we wanted a more less modern cartridge still standing on the edge of the 1900s 450NE

[random phoenix]

The .470 was designed to replace the .450 after government bans so we pretty much have the better version in game

[heavy crescent]

The recoil is manageable I just want you to know that much depending how much you weigh and whether or not it’s shouldered properly. You can still find many people shooting them and some complain about it and some don’t.

[heavy crescent]

The 450NE actually has better penetration than the 470, so no I’d prefer my 450NE or give me a 600 nitro which would be nice considering it’s 2024 now we have access to a wide variety of large game cartridges so let’s use them

[random phoenix]

Yes? The post was as to why Jim Corbett didn't like the rifle

[heavy crescent]

Hey hux idrc the point is that it doesn’t matter idk why your even arguing over whether or not jim enjoyed the gun or not that was @lavish juniper you were talking to and yes we know he didn’t like it we’ve already read about him and his books.

[random phoenix]

If you didn't read the whole conversation why are you missed about one message?

[heavy crescent]

Because Huxley I can have an opinion but that doesn’t mean treat it as a whole. Also I’m not annoyed you love you bud.

[loud scarab]

Imm gonna say it anyway again Martini Class 9 RAAAHHH

[green hinge]

really interesting video on the actual Nepali rifle

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Tw3Ufuom_Q&t=538s

[random phoenix]

Nice

[limpid socket]

Who here is from the Stream that wants the rifle to cover 9s?
Yes ✅️
No ❌️

[lunar brook]

should be 5-9

[jolly girder]

I think it’s stupid they think a .270 has the same power as a 577/450

[verbal warren]

No power, just same class range

[random phoenix]

It's not like it'd gonna hurt anything if they make it cover 9s

[jolly girder]

Well, not same. But similar

[random phoenix]

Nah really, if it becomes 4-9 it's essentially the 7mm with extra flavor and more challenging. There's nothing wrong with that and honestly, I'd use it more if it works that way

[loud scarab]

🫡

[random phoenix]

Cmon 4-9

[lavish juniper]

No

[random phoenix]

Is it really gonna make your game worse if they make it class 9 for the people who want to use it?

[lavish juniper]

Yep

[random phoenix]

Just block him and move on

[loud scarab]

expert bait?

[wise horizon]

10/10 Ragebait, has kept it going for almost 3 weeks now!

[jolly girder]

Ok, this is the rifle vs. a water buffalo, need I say more

[random phoenix]

So it can do that to a water buffalo and it's just a 4-8? Dev oversight

[jolly girder]

It’s does more then the 7MM does to the same thing, makes 0 sense

[random phoenix]

They aren't gonna leave it 4-8 after the CCs have said it and the community opinionsare they?

[jolly girder]

I hope they don’t, if they leave it 4-8 nobody is gonna use it

[amber bane]

For the one who asked about a scope, in case you didn't see, Flinter confirmed in his stream today that there is no compatible scope for it, iron sights only.

[random phoenix]

Could use the hudzik muzzleloader scope. It'd look really cool

[lavish juniper]

Cartridge could never do that in real life.

[jolly girder]

Give me proof

[random phoenix]

This

[lavish juniper]

What kind of proof you want. The cartridge is known to have a hard time pentrating thick skined animals, it's also a black power cartridges that shoots a lead bullet. It's not making it through the shoulder of a Buffalo it's lung and it's stomach.

[jolly girder]

It never hit the shoulder

[lavish juniper]

Scapula is it's shoulder blade.

[jolly girder]

Oh I’m dumb, I knew that but I didn’t read where it hit,but I’ll be honest, this games not the most “realistic

[random phoenix]

It's not that big a deal tho, it is just a game but if they are adding a weapon with a map it should be able to hunt the coolest animal on the map

[lavish juniper]

Did you see how the Tiger reacted from getting shot by it. Barely even flinched we need a dangerous game weapon pack.

[patent smelt]

I guess someone will have to experiment one how effective the Gahendra is on Tigers while taking into consideration that the game is not using realistic ballistics, because if it can do that to water buffalo in the game, I would love to see what it can do to a digital Bengal tiger

[random phoenix]

Gladly, just wait til Tuesday

[patent smelt]

I will, I may also bring along some "Bait", they don't know I'm using them as bait yet

[random phoenix]

Cruelty, but effective

[jolly girder]

And what would that contain

[lavish juniper]

458 win mag 600 nitro express 375 h&h 416 wby. I could name way more but this is just a few cartridges I would like in the game

[random phoenix]

Seems like more people want this thing to be class 9 than don't

[jolly girder]

It’s like 30 to 1

[random phoenix]

Glad Mel and Flinter agree, probably carries more weight than al of us

[loud scarab]

[loud scarab]

Waking up wondering what day it is to see if Nepal map is out yet:

[leaden bone]

Same here...same here...

[random phoenix]

Hope they'll fix a few things before the update

[leaden bone]

Please EW 🙏

[fleet current]

Nerfing it so that there isnt any scope is a really nice touch, but buffing it to be able to handle class 9’s will definitely increase its playability.

[random phoenix]

Flinter dropped 3 charging buffalos.

Also he said from a real perspective it shouldn't be good but as far as gameplay goes it should be a 9 for the sake of fun and I totally agree

[random phoenix]

Desperately want to take a diamond tiger with the gun the map brings

[leaden bone]

Oh how fun it would be...

[random phoenix]

It feels really short sighted to bring a rifle with as much class and history to it, to an area it was heavily used, and make it incapable of taking down the most unique animals on the msp

[warped tinsel]

I couldnt agree more, given the stats i saw for it, it should be the second most powerful rifle in the game short of the 470 so it makes no sense for it to be another wasted opportunity. even outside of nepal id love to use the martini for bison but cant do that now. I guess ill just keep using the 470 since the other class 9 rifles dont perform. Learn how to get close instead of sniping, you will be rewarded.

[random phoenix]

Fact. To many wannabe snipers, practically no one wants to get close

[jolly girder]

That and the fact it’s single shot, to many people have been so used to ARs when they make there bad shots, they can’t put another round down range

[random phoenix]

Exactly. Give me on close up shot and I'd be happier with a gold than a GO I shot from render

[jolly girder]

Agreed, the only fun map to “snipe” on it cuatro, but that’s because it’s very mountainous, not like the new map where the mountains are more gradual

[random phoenix]

Agreed, cuatro is special though because it's a mountain map, the others you can hunt normally but there you have to shoot distance because you won't be able to stalk them up close

[jolly girder]

Yes, and Nepal now has bushes everywhere from the lowlands to the mountains, stalking will be pretty easy

[random phoenix]

I like that Nepal and EC have variety in the terrain. It makes stalking so much more fun

[jolly girder]

I feel like this map would have a variety in landscapes kinda like rancho with the mountains and plains to the deserts

[random phoenix]

I like rancho but I don't spend much time there. I just don't favor birds, but the mulie hunting is great

[leaden bone]

I really hope this gets bumped to class 9. It's too unique and powerful of a rifle to just have at 4/8. I would absolutely love to use it to stalk Tigers and Water Buffalo

[random phoenix]

Hopefully by the time stream rolls around tomorrow they have it adjusted

[edgy oar]

I still cannot understand why it isn't class 9. There are three animals belonging to that class on the new map, but for some reason you can't use the new rifle to shoot them.

And I know that the round wasn't that powerful in real life, but it's a game.

And I'd really love to roleplay as a 19th century big game hunter with the Martini rifle as a primary and Colt Single Action as a secondary.

[random phoenix]

EXACTLY. WHY EW DIDN'T ALLOW THAT I DON'T UNDERSTAND

[jolly girder]

YES, I want to be like that guy who killed the champtwap tiger

[random phoenix]

Jim Corbett

[random phoenix]

C'mon please EW, make this one little change before release!

You've had like a week of feedback that people want the Gahendra to take tigers, isn't that enough?

[green hinge]

You realize that assuming they were willing to do this, it would take 2 weeks (for console certification from Sony and Microsoft) + whatever development time and testing that would require? There is no way that will happen.

[random phoenix]

Yeah, no hope for this. It it wasn't baked in it'll take them two years if they ever care to do it

[jolly girder]

Another rifle with potential lost to the devs

🫡

[random phoenix]

I mean, if they already have it cleared for release does tweaking one thing actually make the whole process restart? They have to allow room for bug removal in the process

[loud scarab]

[random phoenix]

Still 4-8, wasted potential

[jolly girder]

I’m still gonna use it, big fan of falling block rifles

[edgy oar]

I still hope class 9 will be included at some point. After playing with the rifle for a bit I can conclude that it's powerful enough to drop down level 9 animals. There's absolutely no reason not to include them

[random phoenix]

Yeah, it's nice but locked 4-8 it's not nearly as much fun as it could be

[loud scarab]

It works well on the tigers, definitely not from me shooting them anyway

[gaunt arch]

I've tested the Gahendra on moose and compared it with other rifles/calibers that include class 9 animals, turns out it has more quick kill than 7mm, 45-70, and 9.3x74R (at about 75 to 77 meters) which means it's likely more effective on class 9 animals as well. So logically they should either have it include class 9 or take class 9 away from the other rifles (which is just stupid). It doesn't make any sense to have a 4-8 catrage being better than the existing 4-9 / 5-9 catriges

[warped tinsel]

That's exactly what ticks me off, its more powerful than every class 9 rifle except the 470 but isnt allowed to take class 9 animals.

[random phoenix]

Poor design choice

[random phoenix]

I'm not too sure check out #1180283487719260170 I had an interesting conversation there this morning tat makes me think they might be getting ready to change some things