Cosmetics talk

[pale coral]

Let's chat a bit more about cosmetic items What's the best use of customization in the game? Share your favorite cosmetic items and how you apply them in the replies!

[sage dragon]

Less my favourite cosmetic, more I would love to see more cosmetic options for the character

Otherwise I like the more realistic camo's and metal colours for the guns

[cedar sparrow]

I find that a lot cosmetics don't work where I want. A real blued look. Or a color cased hardened look would be cool.

[haughty path]

i use some paints on my guns, but most just dont look right with reflection etc...

[meager adder]

Same. I would love it if there were cosmetics for the dogs that would visually change their breed because I'd love to change my Retriever into a Brittany.

[spare violet]

The paint cosmetics are horrible. Some gun parts like in the old 300 can't be painted so it looks out of place

[supple skiff]

As a lot of people mentioned, scope skins (or a scope system rework?) would be an awesome addition to the game. Ideally the scope skins would mean that iron sights could also have separate skins from the weapon body.

[buoyant walrus]

I like metals for barrels, wood for stocks and trimmings, and usually one of these will be a bright/outstanding colour or texture. Or they will be a mix of contrasting but complimentary colours/texture.

[quiet field]

The "materials" category is usually the one I get most excited about

[deft shadow]

Cosmetics don't really have a "USE" but the best LOOK gotta be the realistic camo ones with dark metal. Great combo classic combo

[noble lava]

Clothing tents blinds scope skins /models just giving choice variants on existing items
same function different look those kind of cosmetics

[sleek phoenix]

Cosmetics is overvalued part of the game

But love ability to turn off clues and cursors

To customize your cloth and bagage would be perfect imo - to make less noise ie

[noble lava]

Items that have functions like noise reduction arent cosmetics

That would be p2w

[formal spindle]

I just like using realistic cosmetics rather than making my rifle bright purple or red.

[half kestrel]

Cosmetics often look wayyy out of place, they're way too bright and colorful to fit a "realistic" hunting thing. But everybody how they want, it just bothers me a bit when yters have like blue and red weapons, not skins like camo or sth, but colours.
SUGGESTION: make the skins spread better over tents so that the same texture is bigger and not so often next to each other. 99% it looks not good

[elder dune]

make you able to unlock cosmetics byc ompleting tasks etc in game not just to buy DLC

[deft shadow]

Cosmetics should matter like in classic. I've been running around with winter camo on in SRP and I know the mulies are sus🤣

[shell bobcat]

Cosmetics would be great for the lodge. I want to be able to add different Cosmetic Bases, Mounts and Plaques to my trophys in the lodge.
Come on everyone this could be the chance to make our lodges better. Let's let them know we want this.

The Cosmetics for the guns are nice, but you don't really have a way to view the full gun to appreciate them fully.

It would be nice to customize your clothing more than we have now. We would need some type of trophy shot to appreciate the clothing as well. Lodges is my number 1 vote.

[balmy wedge]

I would be elated to see customization of lodges. Being able to change the size of plaques would be really nice. Would love the ability to change the base sizes for mounts too, and the biome perhaps? Instead of just grassy having a snowy option would be so cool.

It would be interesting to have multi mounts that include props like trees or rocks. More multi mounts in general is what I want.

[wise condor]

Definitely more options for my character. For example, a typical hunter when they are hunting, they use different camouflage designs, and they wear an orange hat or an orange vest.

[thorn root]

Funny enough, I have an entire appreciation thread on cosmetics. 😅
https://discord.com/channels/393040947006406657/1133141706653585570

I want more, any way, shape or form.

[mint beacon]

i dont use cosmetics because i can hardly see them when i play

[shell bobcat]

This is why I would rather use Cosmetics for the lodge. You could appreciate them more.

[mint beacon]

lodge cosmetics i would use

anything to do with new mounts and terra mounts etc

[dusk linden]

engraving for weapons would be my number one choice.

[mint beacon]

The cosmetics should actually be more functional to the gameplay and really bring advantages to the game and not just to customize weapons and equipment, but there's no point in buying this kind of DLC.

[gleaming reef]

I only use it for attempt to get a realistic Camo (we need more realistic camo for guns)

[dry cypress]

Prefer natural wood and metal finishes. Don't mind the exotic wood finishes either. I would like to see the sporter. 303 have an option to look like an actual Lee-Enfield

[keen dome]

I love metals, woods and some dull colors, camo is nice sometimes, but not super bright camo. I also like customizing tents to make them blend in more. Maybe some engraving options too. And different finishes, glossy, matte, rough.

[lethal grail]

I know you would have to be careful but a custom designer would be cool where we make our own

[stable comet]

I love the free holiday cosmetics. But over all the camo is my biggest one. I find the paint to be too much; doesn’t blend well, won’t color all of it, etc….
Realistic or not, it doesn’t matter because the game doesn’t care. lol if the game mechanics cared it might be different for me. But I enjoy just tweaking customizations every so often.

[glacial mulch]

overall cosmetics on my weapons or character mean very little without some 3rd person viewing options. Let me see what they look like from that perspective.

More dog breeds will also be a great cosmetic accessory .... EW could make more $$ with Dog breed dlc's

[keen dome]

i think jaxy said a new dog is more work than a new map, so thats a no for me

[glacial mulch]

@keen dome Not a new dog type like a retriever or a tracking dog but dlc that changes the look of the dog from a lab to another breed of retriever.... https://discord.com/channels/393040947006406657/1071107633571963031

[sudden harbor]

Can we please get a cat cosmetic thank you - a cat lover

[dry cypress]

The only dog that should have been added was one that could flush out small game and fowl. The others have been utterly useless.

[humble zinc]

What does a cat do in a hunting game???

[sudden harbor]

Hunt birds and squirrels but mainly look super cute

[humble zinc]

Isn’t the game about you hunting and not animals hunting for u (also no squirrels YET)

[sudden harbor]

But for the cosmetics I was mainly thinking a skin but if you want a cat in game sure!

[coral dove]

I would really like to be able to mix and match things instead of having complete outfits.
A) change hair color seperately from the face so I can identify with my character more
B) choose hat / shirt / pants seperately

🙂

[lean nymph]

All I want is actual black paint. Dark grey is ok but I want a jet black paint

[quasi prairie]

I like my guns to be have fine engraving/carving, good blue steel, and beautifully polished wood

[pastel sand]

I really want this camo.

[lean basin]

I really like being able to customize my tents, would love it on all fabric options.
Guns, sights, binos, etc...I want them all! I do wish we could use all the cosmetics on all the slot though, I like to change mine up regularly (as in, every few days).
Also I Echo the desire for changing the cosmetics of the character's clothes, I want colourful cosmetics on everything

[stable rune]

Not so much my favorite cosmetic but more of me wishing a more new up to date camo clothing set/s came to be something like Sitka digital or kryptek highlander to name a few I can think of off the top

[quasi turret]

Cosmetics with use I really wish the gillie suit affect how easily animals can see you

[half leaf]

My gaucho could have more lenço to choose from

[amber herald]

I use the gold and dark grey together. Would be nice if there was a black paint. Also, maybe spend a little time combing through each weapon and making sure that each weapon and variant can be fully customized. Some of them have pieces that can’t be painted and it looks off.

[stable rune]

I do indeed wish the ghillies brought down your visual signature by 1 level

[tepid verge]

All I want is more weaponry in the same a style as the .270 stradi

[undone blade]

It's strange and a bit disappointing when certain patterns/paints aren't allowed certain parts of the weapon. Why this limit?

[quasi prairie]

We definitely need more engraving/carving with more weapons

[rancid hornet]

Think we could use more night hunting cosmetic items, such as glow in the dark bullets, arrows, items, etc. Maybe add some flair by creating customizable clothing that shows where the player is from far away if people like to team up during the night. I know it’s not completely realistic, but I think the possibilities could be wildly entertaining

[wanton bronze]

I’m of the opinion that the best cosmetic arms to own are the special achievement ones, like the rangemaster .338, the Parque handgun, and the Cautro Rayo rifle, but the best-looking weapons are the engraved guns like the .270 and the engraved 20GA. So, having engraved achievement guns would really be a rewarding addition

[jolly zenith]

I mainly use Hunter cosmetics to “fit” in my environment. However, I occasionally use gun cosmetics as well.

[dim crane]

I like to have a different style of tent on each map, so I used the cosmetics for that. For weapons I mainly use the wood and metal "materials" and some of the camos and sprays; I really don't use the paints as they are too garish for the most part.

What I would like:

1. customization for ATVs and scopes

2. "fur" customizations for the dogs. Nothing crazy, but some new dog furs such as a brindle or grey for the bloodhound, etc.

3. more woods please! And they could be used on some of the polymer stocks.

4. "decals" that can be placed on rifle and shotgun butts, such as ornate engraving, reserve logos, favorite animals, etc.

5. character customization: new heads, new hair styles, more beards, "Remi Warren" clothing for female avatars, new clothing styles, etc. And since my daughter asks all the time: could the female characters not be so, well, plain? (which is her nice way of saying they are too ugly)

[sick elk]

I like outfits and camos, but I think I’m looking for stuff that’s maybe a little less realistic/in universe? Would love to see stuff like creator collab camos like classic has or collab outfits with other games and creators.

[celest sandal]

i would love to see more less realistic skins like the orange, there is many realistic camos and wood variants but i think some of the coolest customs are the funky solid color ones, i would also love to see a decal system to add stickers or logos, these could be reserve logos, animals, customizable text in different fonts, ect

[rancid mango]

I think we need engravings as metal cosmetics

[stable rune]

I just want some of the new age hunting camps although some.cool cultural clothing items like flannels and other like expedition shirts and new headwear especially "WHERES MY REMINGTON HAT" 😂

[stable rune]

Oh and for weapons engravings are cool also wouldn't mind some ghillie wraps or cloth/tape wraps like they had in WW2 for sniper rifles

[stuck apex]

I wish we’d make some the old weapons we had to do missions to unlock like the Rayo would give us a unique cosmetic to use on our other weapons

[stable rune]

Also wouldn't be a bad idea

[glacial mulch]

WE need some way of saving cosmetic setups .... https://discord.com/channels/393040947006406657/1167488855247691806

[dull sluice]

I did this to create a stainless steel slide look on the not-a-Glock

It could be more.. silverish?

[calm solar]

I think giving artistically talented players of the Community the Chance to submit skins would be a really cool feature. That's how Counter Strike did it for many years now very successfully. Just make them buyable instead of them coming through cases/gambling so we can protect the kids. So many possibilities with Art Contests etc.

You guys can obviously still release ur own skins, but why not a bit of both, gives the players a way of eternalizing their art in a game they love.

[boreal crest]

All we need is in my opinion is efective clothing, classic euro style, camo clothes, some fancy clothes aswell. What you can look up is just the premium models of rifle makers like Ferlach, Steyr Arms, Merkel, Browning ect. Just stuff that has a soul and not the everyman guns that we have exept a few.

[worn shuttle]

I like to use them for my tents 🙂

[weary zinc]

Just overall more realistic cosmetics that look like the area

[brazen notch]

I like using the wood/metal options in the game to make truly premium looking rifles I also like using the games wraps and or camos occasionally just for fun.

[keen dome]

All stocks for guns should be able to be wood, some guns would look amazing with it.

[runic night]

Custom tent and good boy

[rancid mango]

Something that could be cool is like a weathered American flag but I understand they would have to do a bunch of other countries and that’s prob why they haven’t

[violet rampart]

I set up loadouts for my favorite maps using the wood grain cosmetics from that map

[lucid rose]

Such a nice one! 😯

[noble lava]

I want that scope even if just a skin for an existing one

[pastel sand]

We really need more scopes. They don’t even need to excel at long range, just more variety.

[mint beacon]

Metalic barrels bold, classic and outrageous

Official military camo patterns from that countries/reserve area and the exact pattern lifted from most prolific bush or small tree in that reserve we might stand. This would be gun,scope and hunters outfit and we get full camo rating/unseen rating bonus kneeling and not moving

[runic night]

For the Devs: Increase my purchases of Cosmetics DLCs by making Color purchases permanent!

-Weapon and accessory Customizing has to be purchased every time (with in-game cash). Choose a red woodgrain, pay 1500, run it a bit, then change to green woodgrain, another 1500; but, change back to red, and it's 1500 again, the purchase is not permanent. Nah, I'll save my cash for Tents and Tripods.

-Now, if that red woodgrain purchase was persistent and available across all weapons, I'd eventually apply them all just to check them out. I'd play with Customization options, and when you sell a new DLC, I'd gladly throw you a few bucks for the next variation - because Customizing is part of my gameplay.

-As it is, I've only purchased one Cosmetics DLC, then disregarded the rest, because it's not part of my gameplay. Common, sell me a DLC!

[vestal cairn]

I really like the cosmetics but maybe it would be nice to get a button to unskin your items

[rare wolf]

Metals. Black and white colours to

[wide gust]

I prefer real looking cosmetics ........wish both clothing and cosmetics actually did something

[noble lava]

There is an inspect button after which you can remove the paints to revert to the original skin

[dull swallow]

I'd prefer more character cosmetics aswell as maybe the feature to use them on ATV's

[prime rivet]

Can’t really see my gun while playing after I customize. Other players not really staring at my gun either.

[runic night]

Yeah, you're right. But I have been customizing weapons for display in my lodges.

[cosmic sonnet]

I'll be honest. I rarely use anything but the wood and metal color options for my gear and I Don't particularly care for the brighter colors of those. I also kind of dislike the shiny finish most of the woods come with. It just doesn't suit my preference. I wouldn't mind having a few options from the weapons themselves. The hudzik sol and luna are some of my favorite weapons, but I wish the .303 mission reward weapon was as bright in hand as it's shown in the store. The new muzzleloader wood stock would be acool option too.

Goes without saying, but let me paint the muzzlebrake on the .300 black to match the barrel, copper is too bright.

[visual sorrel]

EW, look at this please

[pastel sand]

Oh also, can you make the patterns for the blinds/placeable items larger, it looks really bad atm.

[violet rampart]

Idk how hard it would be to implement, but when you view weapons in the lodge it would be cool if it would pull up the weapon with the ability to zoom in and pan around it. Animal/reserve specific engraving options would be cool too

[runic night]

Two things on my wish list would help, then we could place them on display and inspect them there:

-Put an Access Cache inside each Lodge.

-Make weapon Customization purchases permanent and applicable across all weapons, so we don't have to pay every time we switch back to a Color/Material for comparison.

[runic night]

One of my favorite woodgrains - comes in the NEM Cosmetics DLC:

[glass orbit]

The ones I'm using at the moment on my new save:

[glass orbit]

Ebony wood option would be 🔥

[cosmic sonnet]

Try looking up Australian blackwood, it's so cool

[visual sorrel]

Idk about the second suggestion, at some point money becomes easy to get and I think the game needs some form of money sink so we dont end up hoarding hundreds of thousands or even millions without knowing what to do with it.

[brazen notch]

I wish we had more color case hardened weapons

Or generally just the ability to make the metal of certain guns color case hardened

[glacial mulch]

Just add third person camera toggle .... https://discord.com/channels/393040947006406657/1184097697305727016 Then we can have a talk about the future of cosmetics

[runic night]

I know what you mean, I'm just cheap! 😀 Although, while I was saving up 500K+ to put tents and tripods on one map, I looked at the cost of repeat-purchasing woodgrains and said, screw it, I'll find one I like then just ignore Cosmetics. So, I haven't bought a Cosmetics DLC since. EW is missing an opportunity to make customizing part of gameplay.

[cosmic sonnet]

Scope customization would be freaking awesome devs, we'd love it.

Maybe a new scope pack soon? A 2-7, a 6-12, a 4-8 shotgun scope, maybe a little addition to the store where we can buy different reticles and apply them to scopes like we do other cosmetics?

[runic night]

I have a 3-9 variable Bushnell scope on a 30.06, I'd like that in-game!

[cosmic sonnet]

I posted a thread on scopes good luck guys

[cosmic sonnet]

Matte black paint and the option to paint those gray panels on the 7mm Malmer

PLEASE

[visual sorrel]

Yeah its true. I think now that the cosmetics could be free, and the issue of "I play this game a lot and I have so much money that it has become a less than trivial resource to manage" could be taken with a different money sink. Maybe with a new mechanic or something like that.

[noble lava]

Let us paint scopes

We can paint binoculars

[visual sorrel]

Allow us to be able to paint deployable structures, and the E-caller too!

Back to the topic, this is the skin I use for my .243 pistol, I really like the paints from the lunar year. (Idk how its named in English sorry ^^!)

[glass orbit]

Blinds are already customizable, btw

same with tents

[mint beacon]

Please add ghillie wraps'

[thorn root]

14 tent designs for 14 maps. Not for the feint of heart. Some may make you want to gouge your eyes out. ⛺ 👀

No prizes for guessing their locations.

⛺ 😍

[cosmic sonnet]

Octagon barrels, maple, rosewood, elm, engraving, ironwood, zebrawood, Australian blackwood.

Ebony, matte black paint, a few more laminate colors

Please either give us an option for glossy colors on stocks or make them less wet looking

[lucid rose]

https://discord.com/channels/393040947006406657/1167513580032229406

[elder arrow]

I'd love more detail in the customization of weapons. More than three areas to customize.

I'd also like some that could create more ornate designs. I think I saw a post about it suggestions earlier. But being apple to apply like engraved designs on the weapons would be cool.

I would care less about character customization unless we got a third person trophy cam like we have in the Angler.

[steady ocean]

I would like to be able to put engravinged on my guns + it would be really cool if you could customize your character yourself

[pseudo carbon]

Cosmetic suppressors

[thorn root]

New tents for Sundarpatan, 😍

[brazen notch]

I’d love to see some color case hardening on guns

[brazen palm]

Cotw should do skins like csgo. Open crates with cash and have a chance to get skins

[cosmic sonnet]

Don't like Sundarpatan's blue steel. I thought it said blued steel when I bought it but baby blue is just ugh

[brazen palm]

Yo bro i just got medved karambit fade

[pastel sand]

Terrible idea.

[brazen palm]

You know you like it

[pastel sand]

You know it’s a god awful system that no one in their right minds thinks is a good idea 😊👍

[brazen palm]

Bro who doesnt love spending all there money on cases

[glass orbit]

I don't

loot boxes are also considered a form of gambling by a lot of people

[dim crane]

including many national governments who outlaw it

[stable rune]

Csgo and black ops 3 called they want their microtransactions back

[grand escarp]

I dont even know how cosmetics work 💀

[pastel sand]

Skin go on gun.

[strong flare]

They need a character outfit where you can customize all pieces with in game wraps. Also we need an outfit with a baseball style hat

[lucid rose]

https://discord.com/channels/393040947006406657/1167513580032229406

[slim plume]

I miss the days when a weapon pack came with multiple variations of each weapon. This let me cosmetically customize a weapon multiple ways and have two or three variations available for display in my lodges, or just to grab whichever variation from storage that suited the map and my current mood.

Devs, please bring back multiple copies of each weapon in the latest DLCs.
🥹 🙏

[visual sorrel]

I would like more 1 weapon + good looking paints to customize anything than 1 weapon + 2 variants of said weapon.

[lyric birch]

When will we get customization for scopes?

[marsh cairn]

I think one thing that really bothers me with cosmetics is that a lot of the guns with wooden furniture often have this really nice looking detailing in the form of either carvings or textures on the grips, and these are just absolutely lost when you use any kind of cosmetic on them. I mean they're still there if you look really close and the light is just right, but otherwise you can't even see them. I don't know what the solution is to fix that, but as someone who really loves a lot of the guns affected by this, it'd be nice to be able to enjoy those details while using cosmetics.

And also I wish we could use cosmetics on our characters' outfits. But lots of folks have said that already.

[proven owl]

Primarily prefer Wood and metals. Wouldn’t mind some distinct stains and varnishes. Maybe some stone or marble like patterns or like mammoth ivory or something. Carbon fiber materials maybe. Some darker metals with varied polish.

I do customize my tents too.

Here’s a thought for a skin, what about 3D Printed? For people who 3D print replacement handles and such for their guns.

[visual sorrel]

I want more outfits with gloves, because gloves are the only thing I see from my character most of the time.

Or just gloves. 🤣

[cosmic sonnet]

Gloves would be wonderful cuz the hands look weird and the arms are broken in short sleeves (Playstation at least)

[tropic leaf]

More character customization in the clothing area.

[devout cargo]

Different kinds of wood for your guns. I wish more kinds of pine, like Pinus strobus. Pinus sylvestris, Pinus nigra, Pinus mugo. Or wood like Fraxinus excelsior, Fagus sylvatica, Quercus petraea, Prunus avium, Acer platanoides, Acer pseudoplatanus, Acer campestre.... Typical german woods.

[final arrow]

Character Creator

[humble zinc]

more metal types and wood types, along with the option (on wood) to have gloss finish or not

[lunar temple]

would love more outfits for our character as well as new hairstyles, new hats too, like animal ones, id love a little raccoon, coyote, or fox hat. also little outfits for our dogs, they dont need to be silly but something like an orange/camo vest or a sweater for the cold, or even different collars (multiple colors, at least the base rainbow ones, maybe even a spiked protection one?)

[soft axle]

I like to use wood grain and bluing on my guns, I'd like to have it available on more guns and parts of the guns (such as the sights).

[modest mirage]

More metals and wood, maybe custom beads on the shotguns too

Waterfowl outfit. Waders, etc. Maybe a flintlock long rifle and an old school realistic buckskin outfit from the revolutionary War era would be cool. Custom outfits and collars for the dogs too

[lethal bloom]

I'm not much into the cosmetics though I would like to see more character options & atv options. It would be nice to have more color choices in both locations.

[summer crow]

I play on PS5 and find that I accidentally select the wrong item in the wheel especially when I am in a hurry. I have lost integrity by thinking I chose my .308 but have the .300 instead. So, I painted my .300 with in bright orange. This helps but I would also like the icons on the wheel to reflect our cosmetics. It would make spotting the correct weapon much faster.

[thorn root]

I colour code my guns in the same way. Black for all class 9 barrels, Copper for shotguns barrels etc etc.

[runic night]

Mississippi Acres Cosmetics DLC has 2 of the nicest blonde woodgrains: Myrtle Wood on the crossbow

[runic night]

Same crossbow in action...

[runic night]

Different flavors of Walnut...

[runic night]

Travis sends Greetings from the Yukon - just look at that Yukon Walnut Wood on the .300!

[cosmic sonnet]

That muzzlebrake is painful

[runic night]

Oh man you know it - can't customize the rose muzzlebrake - leaning into it 🥀

First Diamond Nilgai - Revontuli Coast Claro Walnut Wood on the Olsson .308

[cosmic sonnet]

Gimme this in .35 Rem or .360 Buckhammer at 3-7 or 4-8, I'll never use anything else

[lucid rose]

That would be awesome!!!

[lucid rose]

I wish I had some “wraps” patterned to look like Walnut Wood, Birch, Odorfifera, etc.

Ie. The Malmer 7MM, but with what looks like a wood stock..
🤠

[pastel sand]

Let us change the Malmer to a wood stock🙏

[quasi prairie]

What do we think of leather stock covers for customization?

[pastel sand]

Would be cool, although we rarely see the our stock.

[lucid rose]

I like the look of that new CZ 600 LUX, even the bolt has a nice touch.

[lucid rose]

That’s it! Thanks @pastel sand! 🤠

[runic night]

Halloween Cosmetic Pack is available again...

[amber herald]

A new set of Halloween skins alongside the old ones would’ve been sick

[cosmic sonnet]

Yo, some animal skull paints would be really cool too

[lean nymph]

I just want black paint

[runic night]

Hey Patrycja, please suggest for the next cosmetics update to add some nice Gray Woodgrains to the mix. I have all the woodgrains and they're only shades of brown, red, and yellow, but no gray.

[lucid rose]

Like Matt Black, just Black, shinny metal black, etc.?..

[lean nymph]

Any that’ll go onto the weapon and not just the barrel

[lucid rose]

Like this, graphite, black finish?

[cosmic sonnet]

Can we do something to keep the checkering? If tou material swap any stock it covers the checkering on the grip and forearms

[runic night]

Good weapon cosmetics enhance the immersion

[lucid rose]

My two cents:

• Matte Black paint

• Black wood grain finish material, similar grain pattern to the Lunar New Year Dalbergia Odorifera Material from the Lunar New Year theme.

[runic night]

Agreed, here's the Odorifera woodgrain on the .450 - making it a Scarlett Johansson

I'll see myself out...

[errant copper]

Personally I'd like more cosmetics that I can actually see - gloves, sights and more weapon and reticle customisation options.

for longbows Id like to be able to change bowstring.

scope reticles are also screaming for some attention! Despite purchasing scope DLC the customisation of scopes is disappointing to say the least. All the reticles look quite poor. Why there is not a single rifle reticle with red target dot?
why cant we have some cool customisation options like these?

Also - quite often I customise my weapon, which looks really good in the preview, but then in game it looks completely different.