Proper Class and Ammo Adjustments via Real Life Inspiration

[languid nebula]

I really having hard time to understand classes and how they decided.

I'll give my example for corrected class changes via taking irl facts into it.

**Class 1 **-> Keep it as it is.
**Class 2 **-> Upgrade Jackal / Coyotes to Class 3. Some Coyotes almost as big as Iberian Wolves and you guys put Iberian Wolves to Class 6.
**Class 3 **-> Move Axis Deer to Class 4 and move Roe Deer to Class 2 and keep the rest as it is.
**Class 4 **-> Very messed up class imo. here we go

Downgrade Peccary, Pronghorn, Iberian Mouflon, Southern Spanish Ibex and Sika Deer to class 3
upgrade Wild Boar, Feral Pig, Bighorn Sheep, Mountain Goat, Whitetail, Fallow to Class 5 And Please make the Level 4 and Level 5 Wild Boards much bigger

Keep the rest

Class 5->
Definitely downgrade Iberian Wolf to Class 4 (maybe even 3 cuz they're as big as timberwolves)
Keep the rest

Class 6 -> Another messy one

Downgrade Javan Rusa to Class 4 or at least class 5, downgrade

Upgrade Sambar , Blue Wildebeest, Red Deer to class 7 and Upgrade American Alligator to class 8

Class 7 ->

Upgrade Saltwater Crocodile to class 9 , upgrade Brown Bears (including Grizzly) to Class 8.. Keep the rest as it is.

**Class 8 **->

Drop Gemsbok down to Class 7 and move Moose up to Class 9, keep the Elks cuz they're the biggest and heavier deer species after Moose.

Class 9 -> Keep it as it is with only exception of moving Lion to Class 7.

How Lions above species like Moose, Crocs, Elks, Brown Bears in this game I still don't know .

For the rifle ammo, I think this way would be more realistic, versatile and easy to carry

22-250 -> Class 1 to 3
223 -> 1 to 3
243. -> 2 to 4
270. -> 2 to 5
6.5 -> 3 to 7
30-06 -> 3 to 8
308 -> 3 to 7
30-30 -> 2 to 5
.300 -> 5 to 9
.338 -> 6 to 9
.303 -> 3-8
7mm -> 3-8
7,62x54 -> 3-8 (very similar to 308 irl) and pls bring pen option.

For pure big game power bring 405, 470, 375, 416 and similars for Class 9 imo.

[broken quarry]

You should check the most recent update news, also Gemsbok are ABSOLUTE TANKS in real life they deserve class 8 at the least, https://discord.com/channels/393040947006406657/1213934536434655282

[languid nebula]

I'm ok with class 8 Gemsbok but Class 6 is a crime. I Suggested Class 7 cuz Elks, Wildebeest are larger and heavier than Average Gemsbok.

[compact ivy]

Having killed 4 black bears with a .30-30 I can say 2-5 is wrong, the gun is just ridiculously weak in game because the European bias says its to weak for anything but roe deer

EDIT: grew up in TN, knew a lot of hunters with .30-30s. general consensus at camp was the .30-30 is a big game gun and using it for coyotes was a waste of ammunition. The guys kept an old .223 singleshot in a closet to use on yotes and foxes and .22 LR for raccoons

[languid nebula]

I said that cuz ammo is very weak in-game but yeah it can be 3-7 as well. But not as ideal as 30-06 or 300

[compact ivy]

I have very vivid memories of my first black bear hunt, I used 170 grain bullets and shot through both shoulders of the bear (300 lbs i think) the bear couldn't use its front legs and lasted like 20 seconds after being hit. traveled less than ten yards.

300 and 30-06 have more recoil and weight but inside 200 yards they all kill just as effectively.

[pine bronze]

Something to note is they did adjust gemsboks toughness so it matches class 6. 30-06 now gets 100% quickkill on them at 200m double lung. Only one that struggled for me from that distance( besides 6.5 and 270 ) was 308 and it got 93% at 200m, I did hit the leg so I will retest it soon on them.

[broken quarry]

.30-30 should be more than enough for Black Bear IRL and ingame.

[steep sparrow]

I can agree with some and others not so much on the OP list.
I do however also understand why the Devs are trying to spread out the animal classes and gamify things a bit. The gun classes need to be balanced to be able to have viable loadouts...otherwise it will start forcing people into using guns they do not like or want to use. It will also impact what options you have when you go on a hunt. Is that more life like...yeah sure but it is not really a full blown simulation game. The game is lacking animals in certain classes in terms of balance per weapon.
What we need is a class rework across weapons and animals both.
we also need more class 3 weapon options.
At this point I understand the want for IRL classing but I also want the game to be accessible. I really want a happy medium honestly...and I think to get that we need to be open to changes we are not really adjusted to IRL.

[compact ivy]

This isn't COD, we don't need the game to focus on loadouts or have the guns all balanced against against each other. You might not have noticed but the game does force some of us into guns we don't care trying to deal with the class system. Personally I hated the .300 being the only bolt action available for class 9 for so long, it unrealistic and to people familiar with hunting its immersion breaking. The .338 should be a marked improvement over the .300 but it's not quite the same level. Penetration is pathetic for everything except the newest dlc weapons and when the next weapon pack drops they'll nerf these into oblivion too.

The biggest reason we keep advocating for realistic ballistics is that IRL everything overlaps and covers all sorts of animals. If you want to use a .30-06 to hunt prairie dogs, theres a 110 grain bullet that will do it. If you want a moose use any bullet between 180-220 grains. The .30-06 outperforms the .308 with 180 grain bullets, the .308 is better with light bullets like 150 grains, both will take a deer ethically as far as you can shoot well. Locking the rifles into classes forces you to pick from the calibers they chose for that class rather than the ones you know and want to use.

[pine bronze]

Like how we're now forced to use mosin or 44mag as the best options for pronghorn, 243 being ok and the rest of the class 3 rifle options suck.

[compact ivy]

Class 3 options currently stand at 2 varmint rifles (.223 and .22-250) the .243 (works but ehhh) the mosin (sick of using this thing) and the .44 Moradi ( lets be honest, itll work best anyway)

edit: I forgot the secondary ammo for the muzzleloader, round ball in the Hudzik

[tender girder]

It seems like the majority of posts about weapon performance tweaks are not so much advocating for real ballistics simulation across the board, but instead occasionally using irl data to bring attention to issues that are too big to ignore for even greenhorn hunters.

Selection of ammunition type should shoulder the brunt of versatility and decision in lieu of the current weapon balancing directive regarding integrity focus in theHunter COTW.

Doing so gives the player more freedom to use their desired equipment, it strengthens the game as a whole, and it gives the content creators more flexibility and well, content.

[compact ivy]

There should also be consistency between all the weapons using a given cartridge, as it stands now there is a difference between older and newer weapons

Edit: There is always a big difference in velocity between rifles, but the pistol should be on the lower end of the spectrum. The Jernberg should not be out performing the rifle by this much (or at all actually)

[vast pilot]

I will disagree with African Lion being dropped down to Class 7, idk if anyone else noticed that one bit about the suggestion that African Lion should be dropped down to Class 7 because of its size https://discord.com/channels/393040947006406657/1213934536434655282

[tender girder]

Agreed, I would rather have them perform the same or give a buff to the rifle for sure.

[compact ivy]

The rifle needs a buff, but if they just want to make them the same, they need another buff to handle class 9s better at the absolute least

[tender girder]

I think you hit the nail on the head there Huxley.

[broken quarry]

Timberwolves??? As in the largest wolves in the world???

[steep sparrow]

No its not COD and if that was suppose to be a jab, that is silly. I have not played COD in years lol.
What I am saying is that you are not trying to see things from developmental outlook. I myself have had my hands in game engines like UE4 and Unity so I always try to see things from the other side. You don't want to give too many options because at some point the overlap will be too much. Than by that point you will have many different guns that are rather much of the same with a different look and animation.
So basically players are asking not for weapons but for skins with animations attached to them. Also, if it does get a bit more realistic it could change engagement and fun factor for the rest of the demographics.

So now if its overlap that you really want...the direction to go is the ammo types and not the weapons. Than it will allow more choices and allow more additions universally. Though either way at some point there will be a need to rebalance the class system because its obvious that there is a vision/balance behind that system. They also have to work around technical issues and limitations that hinder the range of classing and power of not only the weapons and ammo but also the animals. That is why I really feel like a complete rework of classing and ballistics should happen. Though it does seem that from what they keep telling us...its the way it is by design. If that is the case...I doubt we will see this type of rework for quite a long time.Anyway, I get that we all want personalization and the ability to use our favorites...plus the immersion to live vicariously through the game. I am not able to hunt IRL anymore so I get it more than most. All we can do is keep asking for it I guess. If it gains enough attention it could happen.

[steep sparrow]

Also, in relative to what you said about loadouts...the game is already focused towards them. There are just different ways people play the game. There are general styles that people might fall into but each of those styles have sub categories as well. Me personally, I like to have a loadout that will allow me to take down most...if not all...species on the reserve I am hunting. I will sometimes grind slowly but I play more organically and wander aimlessly or just post up. I play more like a survivalist than a sportsman I guess. I like being prepped for anything.
Now if it were more realistic...I would not be able to play that way anymore. If that playstyle is not intended than I get it and I will adapt but I enjoy it more.

[compact ivy]

No, it is not a jab. It is personal experience with most of the rifle calibers in the game at this point, and yes, ammo options would open up much more but honestly the majority of cartridge selection is personal choice because they do overlap so much that you can find an argument and a load for everything from prarie dogs to moose. The .30-06 alone has loads ranging from 110 grain bullets to 220 grain. Mass majority of people will choose what they are comfortable with to hunt. some people refuse to hunt black bears with anything less than a .338 and i personally use a .30-30 with no issues at all. You choose the right load or bullet design placed in the right spot and you can bring down elephants with a .270

You have experience with game design, great, but take into account there's not that many variations in rifle actions. Aside from a pump action rifle, they've covered all the action types already and the only way they could add variety is an option to change the caliber of a particular model of weapon (personally, I love the 7mm Malmer's animations and given the choice I'd change it to .338). If that was the case then most of my complaints against the game would be settled. Honestly they are doing fantastic all things considered but their focus needs to be wide enough that it allows for people to play the way they want too. Personally I'd rather play it the way I hunt IRL, a single centerfire rifle and rimfire pistol. Most of the time that's a .30-30 and a .22 magnum, that's proven perfectly fine in Tennessee as well as Wyoming.

I want to see more options for people who want to carry less, they don't have to get rid of loadouts but they need to give options for people who want to use as little as possible and still enjoy all the animals a map can offer

[steep sparrow]

I can agree on arms that perform different. That makes sense and does fill gaps of immersion as well as mechanics too. For example a break action/over under fire arms pack would be awesome.
My current loadout usually does not change unless I bird hunt or want to money grind herds with a bow/crossbow. That loadout is the Hornet, Solo and 7mm Mal. Those with some callers, scents, a tent/tripod/tree stand and cover scent...that really covers the classes for most maps. I might swap the 7mm for stopping power at times if I need to.
You know...speaking of the Solo, I do think that we need more class 3 options. The overlap with ammo would be great for class 3 hunting. You mentioned how versatile a 270 is...I know that with the proper ammo you can target smaller game without shredding them and it could totally be acceptable as a class 3 weapon if we had options for ammo.

[compact ivy]

The most common load I see for .270s in my local shop uses a 140 grain bullet, but the most common .30-06 is 180 grains. I use a 190 in my .300 and a 170 in my .30-30 but when you ask a guide for hunting advice he'll tell you to use what you are most comfortable with and shoot the best

[steep sparrow]

Think Sierra has the smallest grain for a 270...my Uncle use to have a 270 Winchester and used 100g for coyotes and Raccoons. I am not really sure on the lowest grains...I am not a gun guy IRL really.

[compact ivy]

bullet placement and construction is way more important than caliber, a soft point 140 grain from a .270 won't destroy much meat but effectively down springbok or roe deer with plenty of power. The .30-30 load I use most is a 170 grain hard cast bullet, it has taken everything from a sixty pound feral pig to a five hundred pound cow elk with no issues at all, but it will destroy a coyote's hide worse than a load of buckshot. I'd happily use the 170 on axis deer and blackbuck (texas) with no worries, but I'd rather have a .223 or .243 for coyote sized animals

[steep sparrow]

Well yeah for sure if you are going for pelt but I guess he just used it to rid his farm/homestead of predators. But yeah...makes sense.
I was always more of a trapper and fisherman...use to be ok with a bow/crossbow but the same is said with those types of arms as well when it comes to tips (arrow/bolt heads).

Yeah just looked it up...Sierra has a 90g hard point.

[compact ivy]

Yeah, but consider the in game thing, you are hunting for trophy animals. your goal is to get a diamond and you know a .30 caliber rifle with destroy the hide which is a predators main trophy organ, the .30-30 makes no sense as a 2-6 weapon if you think about it

[steep sparrow]

Well if the bullet is made for pen...rather than spread would that not reduce the damage?

[compact ivy]

it still leaves a large hole in the hide and if the animal is angled it would tear and even bigger hole. Taxidermists and fur buyers won't accept a torn hide most of the time because its too difficult to repair so given a choice between a hide with a tiny .22 caliber bullet hole is much easier to fix than a larger .30 caliber hole. That's the reason most "predator" ammo is designed to be highly frangible so it makes a small entry hole in the body and tears apart in a way that won't damage the hide anymore than the initial entry wound

[steep sparrow]

Yeah but thats IRL...it could be respectable to have in game though. I mean you have to compromise things a lot in gaming. I am sure gamifying it a bit would not be horrible. Especially for pistols/side arms that are mainly for protection.
On the topic though, in some cases with a high velocity/pen round...I am sure it could even go right through the animal too creating an exit wound. Thats taxidermic damage too but we rarely have that issue in this game because taxidermic damage is not really incorporated into the game is it?

[compact ivy]

Pistol bullets designed for hunting are made to penetrate deeply and expand very little, to reach vital organs. pistol bullets that expand are moving too slowly to pass the ribs on deer sized animals because the more it expands the slower it travels and they don't travel even half as fast as a rifle bullet. .357 mag is a larger bullet diameter than .30-30's use and they are fine as 2-6 because they only reach about half the velocity of a .30-30 bullet in rifles, compare a .30-30 at 1800 fps from a 20" barrel and a .357 magum from a seven inch barrel and there's a difference of 900 to 1000 fps lost due to a short barrel. even in rfles with same length barrels the difference will be like 5-600 fps

If you want to stop a coyote from bothering livestock either will work, if you want to mount it as a trophy you need lower caliber bullet designed to break up in the animal. EW is looking at calibers by the load's numbers on paper, not real world effects

This is a little mini-guide from a Field and Stream book about hunting

Those three rounds mentioned under Varmints and predators are the most popular for that sort of thing because they don't destroy hides and preserve meat on larger game, there's not a single .30 caliber mentioned

[steep sparrow]

So considering that this game is not a sim it is viable to follow the numbers on paper. Even by logic as a survivalist you rather not ruin the pelt/meat but if the food/safety is more important than it does not matter. You can still use a damaged pelt and even trophy it with character. If they did make that matter in game than I would care more.

[compact ivy]

idky it turned. . .
Anyway, big game all a rounders (4-8s in game) do feature .30 calibers

[compact ivy]

No, its not a sim but the way they present it makes no sense either, for example, no sensible guide in Africa would let you take on a cape buffalo or a lion with a .300 unless it was already trying to kill you because of basic safety. It doesn't have the shock to stop them.

EW's class system is covering for a tiny pool of calibers rather than a reasonable set of choices. If they had introduced a .257 or .25-06 that would have been the ideal 2-6 to compete with the .243 and .223, even the .22-250 was a good choice for that. The .30-30 is only 2-6 because it was the only alternate to the .243 in the base game, they've added more calibers and need to change them around to fit the new ecosystem. rather than just ignoring the base game calibers unless they think of a way to reuse them.

Also, they aren't basing the choices in the game on survival or food, that's only rarely mentioned while most missions require a certain trophy score. IF you were a trophy hunter as they say, you would be even more picky about weapons and how risky it would be to your trophy

[steep sparrow]

Yeah that is clear because the damage you take in game is minimal and there is no real human care system.
Though on the topic of trophy damage...again...its gamified to be accessible to other demographics. So its just being picky and a little biased. A happy medium and compromise is always better IMO.
Interesting talk and debate Hux...but I need to maybe continue another time. I need to get going. Cheers!