An Open Letter To EW

[sonic robin]

Dear Expansive Worlds,

(1/2) This open letter is an attempt to express some frustrations and concerns regarding somethings that arose from the last stream about Call of the Wild.

As a player of this game for 4 years I have invested a fair bit of time and money into it. I loved this game. In fact it was for the longest time the only game I ever played. The challenge of learning how it worked to discovering content creators and the community to share trophies with was such a wonderful experience. The pounding heartbeat I got spotting my first diamond level animal, to the complete disbelief of getting a Super Rare. This game is thrilling, intense…or should it say used to be.

Last stream a question was asked about Herd Management and whether or not it is cheating. I’m not going to debate that topic. However, the response given was that it is in fact a viable tactic and that EW is “surprised it’s even a conversation” that it may be considered cheating. While cheating could be seen as going too far, having a negative view of Herd Management and it’s impact on the game is valid. That comment came across as rather dismissive to me, but to give the benefit of the doubt maybe that was not its intent. I will say that I don’t think we should be “surprised” it’s a conversation, rather I think we need to have the conversation.

(2/2) Herd Management whether you believe it is exploiting the games spawn system or not is ruining this game. It has devalued trophies that are not Great Ones and has made life difficult for Creators who aren’t on board with the idea. The most thrilling part of this game is when you see a max level animal and shoot it. Then there is the heart pounding walk to see whether or not it made diamond. With Herd Management being a tactic that is not only accepted but endorsed by the developers it has cheapened that moment for everyone. The trophies shared are no longer “I finally got a diamond” but have become “Diamond #45 on route to the GO Moose”. That to me is a sad reality.

I know this is just one players perspective and there are many opinions to take into account but since the rise of Herd Management I personally have lost all drive to play. There seems to be no value in a trophy other than a Great One anymore. It breaks my heart to see what was once an immersive, challenging game turn into an arcade race to a specific trophy. No longer is there satisfaction in the process, no longer are diamonds or gold rare furs seen as valued trophies.

This was my favourite game. It was my pass time, my “thing to do”. Now it is a source of disappointment. My request isn’t even that you remove Herd Management this instant. My request is that you start the conversation about it. Talk to your Content Creators, listen to the minority voices. Fix the game I love. Until then, I’ll find something else to do.

                    Sincerely,
                            A Very DejectedSoup

[hollow garnet]

I’ll never understand the people that choose to whine about something that doesn’t effect them. HM may devalue diamonds sure, but only for the people that choose to use it. Let people play how they want

[wicked shoal]

I agree but who is stopping you to play this game the way you like it?
The youtubers that all play this game like maniacs?
Who cares about this dudes with their grind for GOs … thats kind of an abusive and ugly play style, yes. But that doesnt mean that you have to play this game this way, does it? 😁

[hollow garnet]

This is not a competitive FPS game. Not like CoD or Battlefield. Everybody has their own sense of what they consider a trophy. And as they get more trophies, with or without HM, with or without grinding, they’ll want to earn larger and more impressive trophies. After playing the game for 2500 hours, diamonds that aren’t a species I don’t yet have a diamond of just simply aren’t interesting. And even then I still find tremendous joy every time I find a lvl 3 ptarmigan.
The people who choose to herd manage are people who want to get bigger animals. It has absolutely no effect on you whatsoever. Don’t complain about how others choose to play the game. This goes to pretty much anyone who thinks there’s only one correct way to play

[knotty maple]

I agree with oligator on everything he just said

[frail sable]

Ok listen up everyone. Whither or not you agree with the post is irrelevant. This guy politely posted his concerns. And I for one thought his post was very nicely written and very well thought out. And I also agree with him that it devalues anything that isn't a great one. And he's also right that it hurts content creator's that don't use it. Either way this is a issue, and it should be discussed and EW Should do something about it. But hey that's just my 2 cents.

[knotty maple]

It shouldn’t matter if others value your trophy as much as someone else’s. What truly matters is if you enjoy the game and get the satisfaction of killing a trophy. I honestly can’t under why people devalue their own trophies due to creators using HM. What other people do shouldn’t devalue your trophy.

[hollow garnet]

Again, this isn’t a competitive game. There is no such thing as trophies being “devalued” outside of personal trophies. If I get 300 diamond red deer, does that make them any less valuable to someone who just got one for the first time? Does me getting a great one devalue the overall worth of one?
If you don’t choose to herd manage, that is completely fine and don’t let anyone else tell you otherwise. It is your choice to play that way. Why are you then complaining about HM as a whole, saying how it’s basically cheating when it was openly stated by someone on the EW team that it straight up isn’t. Why should other people stop playing the way they want? To me it seems completely hypocritical that you preach about wanting to play the way you want and then going on to shit at the way others play the game. Let people choose how they want to play the game. It does not affect how you play the game

[sonic robin]

Did you read the letter? I never complained, I never said it was cheating. I just want it to be talked about and the way it was presented on stream was that it won't be.

[hollow garnet]

Since I don’t want to seem entirely fucking negative all the time, I’ll state one thing I completely agree with you on; the fact that new players are lead to believe you need to herd manage and grind everything because content creators are constantly uploading such content. They shouldn’t be focusing on that when they should simply just enjoy the game before getting into the grindy aspect

[slate kernel]

I personally dont know dejected soup, but i do believe his point, he is just saying that they need to talk about it like grown adults and they shouldn't just cut half the community off without sitting down and hjaving a conversation about it. I just want an answer to why they think it doesnt have an affect on how easily you can get diamonds and Great ones when it clearly does. @hollow garnet Trophies are devalued when a content creator or a normal person uses HM and gets over 1000 or 2000 from grinding using HM. It makes the rest of content creators that dont use it feel like they cant compete or their content isnt enough.

[hollow garnet]

Here’s the problem with that. You guys are pushing for it to be completely removed, which not only would require a rework of the game’s respawn system and would prevent a very big part of the community from playing how they choose to play. That’s not the game’s fault, that’s not herd management’s fault, that’s not EW’s fault, that’s the content creator’s faults. They are pushing for this being the “best way to get diamonds” or whatever else they’re posting. Your problem lies with the influencers, not the game’s mechanics

[slate kernel]

Tell me when, WHEN i said it should be removed?

[hollow garnet]

Do you disagree with me though? Am I not right that the whole “herd management is the single best way to play” mindset is being pushed by the content creators and not by the game’s mechanics?

[sonic robin]

Isn't it fair to say that maybe EW could do something about that?

[hot hare]

Thats part of the reason I had to take a break from watching several content creators

[torn siren]

I can agree it is being pushed that’s a valid point

[slate kernel]

EW could tell it's content creators to not force it as much.......

[hollow garnet]

What would you do about it then? I am very curious to know how you’d try to solve what you consider an issue without removing or heavily altering this playstyle

[frail sable]

The fact that this game is not a competitive game Is also irrelevant. And nobody said anything about anyone cheating. What the issue is, is that the are two opinions here. One is for "Herd Management" and One is against it. And one of those opinions is being ignored. And the community manager didn't have the best response when he was all like " I don't why it's even a conversation". The issue is not whether anyone thinks anyone is cheating. The issue is that only one side of this discussion is being listened to. If you personally don't see a issue with "Herd Management" or anyone using it then that's fine. But completely ignoring the people who have a issue with it. And completely brushing them off, is not the way to keep a healthy community.

[torn siren]

This tho

[sonic robin]

I'm not sure if I have a solution right now. I know removing it completely wouldn't go over well. I'm just looking to start the conversation to see if there is a solution that both sides have input in.

[hollow garnet]

You know what? I can agree to that. Apologies on going so hard in the beginning

[sonic robin]

For me, it's about what is best for the game. I am not convinced HM is what's best.

[torn siren]

This makes me happy to see for real

[slate kernel]

Removing Herd management would be very hard, impossible even, but all we are looking to do is start a conversation as one side is being ignored as EW dont think its the correct one

[coral birch]

ooh boi. this one is moving quickly 😳 It presents a really tough question as Soup says. I can only speak for myself but I dont want people to stop doing it. And I dont want it to be removed. I wish it were never discovered, but thats neither here nor there. What I personally worry about at this stage is what some of you guys have said. Its kind of made out to be the only way to get great ones and super rares and such. I have seen quite a few people who herd managed, and now regret. Feeling like it ruined the game for them. Thats all I care about. Dont ignore those of us who want to let people know that there could be a negative side to it as well. There wont be for everyone. But its at least worth talking about so people understand it

[hollow garnet]

I didn’t watch the stream so I don’t really know what Jaxy’s reaction was, but from what I understood from it was him basically saying “why is there arguments on it being cheating if it’s not”. Specifically about how it’s not cheating, not ignoring people who want to see adjustments/changes to it

[sonic robin]

Yeah I doubt it was intended to be dismissive but it could come across that way. The letter was a long time coming. Often times presenting an opinion that isn't supporting HM is negatively viewed or borderline not tolerated in this community. I just want people to know that there is another side. We can find a solution together that makes the game better.

[hollow garnet]

Honestly, the biggest part of grinding that I feel ruins it for many people is how monotone it is. It’s boring as shit. But I don’t think having respawns not be guaranteed to be in the same zone is the right way to go about it

[hollow garnet]

I initially took your letter as “HM bad”, but seeing you want a solution that both sides can agree on is something I wholeheartedly agree with. The best way to go about changing herd management is having both sides put in their opinions and figuring out how to adjust it without negatively impacting either side, just adjusting it

[coral birch]

This is the closest thing to a solution I have seen actually. Maybe there is an adjustment that suits

[sonic robin]

To be fair I do think as it currently sits it is in fact ruining that game 😂

[hollow garnet]

Thing is though, none of us really understand how respawns or such really work. We don’t know how that system operates so it’s difficult to suggest a change in the system when we know nothing about it

[astral yew]

One way I could see possibly making it better is making it harder to spawn low level animals and thus making it harder to achieve hm

[hollow garnet]

What if they implemented a genetics system reminiscent of WOTH? Bigger, more symmetric males make the other respawns better in return

[coral birch]

I think we can suggest like what could ideally happen tho, even without understanding the inner workings

[glossy sun]

? Do you enjoy herd management
(Yes then do it and enjoy have a nice hunt / no don't do it enjoy have fun hunt)

I really think it's this simple

[coral birch]

I was gonna say "they probably dont want you to be able to make a diamond farm" in regards to working towards great genetics but... 😂 considering HM is the ultimate diamond farm, maybe this works!

[hollow garnet]

I don’t want there to be an aging system, but having a genetics system and increasing the likelihood of wonky animals means it would be harder to acquire good spawns in a herd

[sonic robin]

Game modes comes to mind but I need to think through how it would work.

[hollow garnet]

That way, it takes a lot of effort for every party involved to get those good spawns. Grinding simply would streamline the process without negatively impacting the people who choose not to

[coral birch]

My stance on the topic is pretty close to this. It wasnt always, but its where I've moved to. But in light of the recent "its not cheating" thing, I have thought through some stuff, and I relate it to high fence hunting. Its completely legal.. but it doesnt mean that ethical questions cant be raised regarding its affect on hunters and how we are viewed. My thing tho is just kind of warning people that it can ruin the experience for you. I know it would for me, and I know it has for others. Much like high fence hunting... hard to appreciate a basket rack 8 when you just paid $35,000 to shoot a 300" nontypical lol

[hollow garnet]

Personally I’m completely against that idea. I believe that there would be no consistency between trophies and it would create a further divide in the community, and that’s not something we want. Imo I don’t think game modes are the way to go about it

[torn siren]

Just wanna say this whole convo is fantastic to see. As someone who’s been fairly open with my concerns regarding HM all I’ve wanted was a solution that works for everyone, so seeing this being discussed warms my heart, seriously. I hope something can happen that works for everyone because at the end of the day that’s all I’ve ever wanted! 🖤

[coral birch]

I would legitimately be all for HM if it were intended, which is basically what you're getting at here. A version of it thats intended. I like it

[sonic robin]

thats what i mean. the game mode idea works better with things like spook radius and tracking maybe. Having it affect trophies does create another division we dont want.

I'm with Mel though. I'm glad the conversation is starting. There may be a middle ground to be had in all of this.

[hollow garnet]

Thinking more about that whole genetics concept. That could honestly be our solution

I might make my own separate forum on it to see what people think

[sonic robin]

Its a good start for sure. Honestly spread the word, have more people give input to what they think a solution could be.

[hollow garnet]

#1096112572517851307 message

[sonic robin]

you should tag this thread with the letter so people can come read the context behind your idea

[celest depot]

I think each person is free to hunt the way they want, I can choose to "Simulate a hunt" by walking around the landscape or you can "Simulate a shooting gallery" and shoot animals standing on the other side of a lake..

But personally I think that the HM is a waste of the whole game, behind each Reserve there are landscapes, flora, relevant history of the area, lowlands and mountains created to emulate a real life Hunting Zone, the developers spend 6 months or more researching and trying to recreate each ecoregion within the Reserve as best as possible, and lately I see the posts from the community saying "Hi, I'm lvl 15, I downloaded the game 7 days ago, how do I do the HM?" or they show a capture of their map and they only toured the lakes or rivers and did not activate any watchtowers or points of interest, GOD! If it bothers me that this happens, I don't want to imagine what the scenario and open world designers and those who spent all that time designing a Reserve as real as possible think...
The fact that new players and many believe that the game is only based on getting the best possible trophy (GOs) is the goal of the game is worrying, since there is currently no reward in going through and unveiling the maps...

This is just a personal opinion as a hunter using the game to try to simulate a real hunting outing.

[hollow garnet]

I completely agree on the aspect that new players shouldn’t be worrying about grinding at all. If you have a second, may I recommend that you check out the forum I made about a potential solution to the HM dilemma? I’d like to see what you think of it

[sonic robin]

i sympathize with this perspective

[celest depot]

Expanding the set design thing a bit more, this is a comparison I did during the Rancho del Arroyo release, which was one of the biggest and most detailed jobs EW has done.
They are things that we overlook but someone really took the replica of the flora of Mexico seriously

[astral yew]

I think what could be really cool is to see like a podcast style stream with the dev team and youtubers talking about stuff like hm, and other things. just getting alot more details would be great

[sonic robin]

Just having the conversation openly is something that I would love to see. Express all the opinions on it.

[runic laurel]

Just read through it all, and after seeing everything i think i know why there was such a divide in the first place. Its because for the longest time we have looked at it wrong. It really has been a matter of needing to find a middle ground, when many wanted a complete eradication of HM and those that love it just said screw you to those that disagree. When in reality we just need to find a way that both parties can be happy. At this point in cotws life I doubt anything will change but at the end of the day I think there just needs to be more conversation instead of arguing. Respectful convos are how we understand each others views. I have played both ways and enjoyed both ways, and I do feel like a lot of this stems from the abrupt shift in what a lot of players consider to be their goal trophies in this game. Those that do HM are setting their goals on super rares, while those that are against it want diamonds to be the goal again like the old days. At the end of the day i feel like the biggest issue with how we have looked at this issue is that many players including myself at times fail to listen and try to understand their points the other side brings. One of the biggest things I feel gets really misunderstood is people individual feelings towards if trophies are still meaningful. I have always found it odd how everyone I have talked to doing Hm still values the majority of their trophies. But everyone against Hm says that most trophies are devalued. People think I'm crazy when I say I still get excited when I find a whitetail diamond in multiplayer. For me its the way it happens, and the fact that there is still weird wonky ones I've never seen. Now this is HEAVILY opinion here at the end, but imo the value on a trophy is what you make it. If you see others getting lots of a specific diamond makes it less valuable to you then thats just how you feel about it. Its a personal feeling. Not every player will feel the same. For example Axis deer are probably the diamond i care the least about and i never managed them once. But my reasoning is because they were bugged on release spawning dimes everywhere and I got 2 supers during that time. But if you ask most people they dont feel the same about Axis. Again a lot of how we feel is just that, its how we feel and view it. Hopefully this message makes sense, it took too long to type lol

[glossy sun]

Well I maybe reading that for a while

[agile cove]

Just thought I'd throw my two cents in here. HM itself I don't have a problem with. I don't use it, but I don't give a shit if some random person across the world uses it, because it doesn't affect me. What I don't like however, is content creators using it for a couple reasons. #1, it's so boring to watch. I'd much rather see someone run around and find a random diamond, rare, or even nothing at all, than watch someone blast 20 diamond whitetail in a row. And #2, it makes new players think that they absolutely have to grind the second they finish the tutorial. HM and grinding in general should be end game activities. I personally think it would be better if HM wasn't pushed, and rather became a thing you found out about after getting into the game, maybe through Discord or just experimenting by yourself. Hope this makes sense.

[sonic robin]

One thing I disagree with is the idea that those against HM want "diamonds to be the goal again like the old days". Its partly true. It's not like we don't want a GO. It's the idea that the pursuit of a GO glosses over the significance of diamonds because the sheer number of them that HM can produce. Another aspect Oligator brought up elsewhere is this "It almost feels like you’re being punished for not grinding. Makes some people feel like they aren’t as good as the people who get dozens of diamonds and rares per day" There is an added pressure to utilize HM or forever be missing out on trophies, I agree trophies are what you make them. There is a sentimental aspect that its "my diamond". However rarity is also dictated by quantity so when there are 1000's of diamonds for someone who has used HM, having 1 seems insignificant.

[vocal spruce]

So I have read over this topic and have some things I would like to say. First of all the current "meta" was inevitable. For as long as the game has been out people have been trying everything to get cool stuff quicker and more efficiently. I think what has really turned this in to a problem is EWs lack of communication with the community. We still haven't a clue what direction the devs want to take the game and it doesn't seem like letting the community in on that is something thats going to happen. Thats probably a highly controversial statement but so be it. The thing is at this point, at least in my mind, the community as a whole sucks and is hugely divided. And because nobody knows what the game is supposed to be we all want to see our own little version that doesn't appeal to half of the community. So my proposed solution? There is none. Reworking anything at this point would see a major overhaul to the core mechanics of the game that would take a massive amount of time and isn't something you can charge people for. I think the only way to keep most of the community happy is to make an entirely new game. Then be straightforward with the community about how things are sposed to work.

Also because I saw it mentioned I would like to say that map layout has become boring and lame imo. You could bring so much life back to the game by making maps more interesting and unique

[knotty maple]

A new game is a possibility but probably extremely unlikely at this point in time. There likely won’t be anything done with herd management in this current game.

[sonic robin]

It would be nice if the Devs or even Jaxy would publicly acknowledge this issue though. And talk through why they can't change or won’t anything

[knotty maple]

They CAN change it but that would put a stop on pretty much all content updates for many months and if there’s no new content then there’s no new money. It’d be nice to have official answers but we can already guess what they’d be.

[vocal spruce]

Also also whilst I think that changing anything regarding spawns and the manipulation of them isn't feasible anymore I do think that other changes could be made to make the game more interesting for people who don't like drawn out grinds that require shooting thousands of animals. A ballistics rework would be nice, seeing we are backed in to a corner in terms of adding new guns. And tweaking zones could also be a possible solution.

[sonic robin]

I don’t want to guess. I want them to say it

[hollow garnet]

Ballistics can’t really be adjusted besides changing existing stats. They’ve already stated the game engine is what limits it, as it’s a little more strict than say the unreal engine

[wanton coyote]

A la Minecraft. Have a creative mode with HM and a survival that disables HM in some way.

[vocal spruce]

Which would change everything about gameplay(make a new game).

[regal egret]

Well, that was a read and a half. I don't grind, I don't HM, I just play for the fun of playing. Like it used to be. I love the excitement of finding a diamond level or a rare fur type. I personally wish HM was never discovered, but it is what it is. The game is still fun if you play it without doing HM or grinding. It gets kinda boring when you see "I got my 30th" GO or whatever. Hopefully EW will see this letter and the comments and hopefully do a stream dedicated to talking about this.

@sonic robin That was well written

[glossy sun]

At the moment I'm taken no sides or voting until I hear how the game was intended to be played/ designed

Also I believe u could go old school like the cotw classic was and start a new game every time u start. But I don't like that idea.

Also believe it duz take a long time to get those diamonds and that in the game even if u use HM if they some how change the way and make more hard I believe I wold not enjoy as much

Can't remember exactly how many hours but played for about 3or 4 months now got about 10 diamonds and
At the start of my grind I killed all white tail even females then someone says only kill the males then someone recommend I try a little herd management so I did and seems to be working better for me gives me some sort of order in Wich to hunt
(Will edit when I log on look how many hours)

No matter what way u play any game there will be people who find the meta or away to play that works for them.

I don't believe that the developers just one day got out bed and decided to make the game different in the core mechanics of the game I believe the game was intended to be played in any Wich way u choose and still is

I personally stand by the developers and that as the game has had some very good sales may be millions who knows it's a good game and I enjoy all diffent ways to hunt HM or not its your choice.

Thanks for reading and I don't wish to upset anyone by my comments just saying my point of view at this moment in time hope u all respect that as I respect ur comments to💚🐰

[crisp sun]

I skimmed through this a bit so forgive me if it's already been mentioned but there are are actual cheaters in this game like all games bit different scenario in the sense of a non pvp game, but hm still requires time and energy just like any hunt, cheaters bypass this and can get rares and such for no time at all in my opinion it's a bigger problem. Also dare I mention the unholy amount of people getting scammed when trying to trade GOs and other rares, I don't like trading but again about addressing the real problems I have seen it alot on Xbox. In the end play how you enjoy playing the game, I just think there are more appropriate problems that need to be addressed. Hopefully I contributed in some way or another.

[vocal spruce]

I dont think the devs really considered how far spawn manipulation would go. And I don't think the current result was entirely intended simply because it was considered. However I am gonna nit-pick about the term herd management. I remember speculating how spawns really worked, along with a lot of people from the community, and a common theory was they didnt want to explain how it works because that would make it super easy to exploit. I still think thats true personally but who knows, either way people have been begging for devs to talk about spawn mechanics for years now and it hasn't really happened. At least not in any depth. And now we have figured out what is probably damn near the most efficient way to manipulate spawns without actually messing with the numbers and percentages, yet we still haven't gotten word from EW about what the vision was. And quite frankly I think thats because this wasnt planned and saying anything could piss off portions of the community. So as far as waiting for the devs to responds... I don't see us getting that clear of an answer, and even then I personally think the most logical conclusion is to admit "herd management" is and will be the way to play the game best and that it isn't going anywhere for reasons previously mentioned. Sucks but just like classic and woth trying to manipulate spawns is the name of the game and cotws less straightforward system along with the devs being as clear as mud makes us think "maybe it wasn't supposed to be this way" and has led to peoples expectations being dashed.

[vocal spruce]

People "cheating" is an interesting topic, and if your gonna say play it however you enjoy then modding should be allowed. Its a singeplayer game after all. But I think modding is what proves that play it your way it doesn't matter what other people do doesn't work. And yes its different but its a noncompetitive game so what really can you do. On top of that the issue with trading is a blatant exploit that I dont think is intended at all but it kinda comes back to the same thing. And as for the people who trade and get scammed I find it hilarious because a majority of them are 12 year olds desperate for internet likes.

[faint birch]

No the problem with Modding is support because Mods cause problems with the game which then causes problems with support. people who mod will call support and reporting bugs that don't really exist because the bugs are caused by the mods. So yeah playing with mods is not the same as play how you want ....

[pearl briar]

To elucidate a bit more on modding -

Insofar as modding, the game code doesn't handle it well - so, while you can't stop modders from happening - we can say "no speaking/bragging/enthusiastically telling folks to join in on it" within the community walls.
You can do what you want in your game, how you want to. But the fact that it makes the code a spaghettified mess doesn't change. Sure you could be the lucky one who does the thing and gets the good trophy and doesn't wreck your files. Or you could be like many folks who do get ruined.

It's not a debate that modding games exists, and makes some games more functional and therefore playable, (lookin at you Bethesda Developers and half the FO series..). But let's take it a step further.

We all know the modding program in question isn't a proper modding program. It isn't creating content within the game, such as making a new map and uploading it into the system for folks to use. (The Devs do this themselves, for us.) The program folks are using is hacking things into the game. Hacking game cash, experience, levels, trophies.
It's a precise distinction. If the games files and resources and engine aren't open sourced, it can be a legality issue (iirc)..

So - modding can exist, but hacking (what is commonly called modding here from what I've seen) is true cheating.

That said, as I stated before, the modding of trophies etc can exist simultaneously with breaking the game code. Do it, on your own terms and at your own risk - but not within the walls of the discord community.

[fleet pollen]

It's sad people complain about heard management if I was still killing animals Tae way I was before I still wouldn't have a great one nor would I have many diamonds and I've been playing for 3 or 4 years

[faint birch]

well if HM wasn't a thing then no one would have as many trophies so we would all be basically on the same field. It's not always about whats best for me it's also about whats best for the game ...

[fleet pollen]

So your saying I should only have as high as golds

[faint birch]

I'm saying that's the basic debate .... not whats best for the individual but whats best for the game

[fleet pollen]

Why do you disagree with HM

[faint birch]

many believe that HM is an exploit because it can potentially create 100's of diamonds. Thus devaluing those diamonds that people have already killed thru normal play .... It also artificially bypasses the rarity for trophy animals that EW put in place from the beginning.

If HM didn't work so effectively then people wouldnt really care about it .... If it were just slightly better than normal grinding then it wouldnt be "the defacto or meta way to grind " . Yet EW sees no problem with it or at least at this point doesnt see a problem with it ....

[pearl briar]

If we look at their base response - that it isnt cheating - I mean, at face value it isn't. It's a mechanic. Albeit, a fast track one .

[faint birch]

No it's not cheating but I believe it is an exploit and normally developers are opposed to exploits but not in this case evidently

I question whether its that they dont care about the exploit or if they just feel powerless to do anything about it ...

[pearl briar]

I dont know that I personally would even call it an exploit - in the sense of what if it was just an unmentioned mechanic and it got found out and now it's the hot new thing?

I dont view it any differently than when I ran and re-ran bosses in Borderlands 1/2/pre sequel etc... all because I wanted a specific drop from the loot table

I equate HM to it, in the sense that we 're-run' herds to get better loot drops (trophies) which are RNG

Yeah, we can tweak it slightly by increasing how many runs we make

[fleet pollen]

So you think everyone who uses HM in the game are cheaters and you think they don't deserve the trophies that they have gotten

[pearl briar]

HM is a little more fine tuned, I feel, since it's a Percentage chance to drop in BL - and eventually in HM statistics, you'll reach the ceiling where you consistently are spawning the "loot" (trophy)

[faint birch]

Agreed its a fine line between repetitive grinding which all players can do given enough time .... But as I said HM is so effective at creating trophies that it basically devalues diamond trophies. And i dont think that was the true intent of the game

[pearl briar]

Can we pause briefly and sidebar real quick - does it depreciate the value of the trophies across to board

or just to the folks who are salted about this?

Because, personally, I would be enthused for a diamond regardless. I'd be enthused for a rare fur/skin regardless.

But thats me. I don't let a mechanic wreck that for me

[fleet pollen]

I'm using hm and since December I've only gotten 2 diamond moose

[faint birch]

Again it gets back to the issue of whats good for the individual and whats good for the game

[fleet pollen]

According to JJ every person who uses HM deserves nothing no matter what

[pearl briar]

Fair, but since its not REQUIRED to be employed in game - is there major harm? Or does that still fall into the umbrella of 'individual' play?

[pearl briar]

Lets keep it polite - this is a discussion. Not a rant.

JJ is allowed their opinion just as I am allowed mine - and you are allowed yours.

[fleet pollen]

According to him I'm not aloud my opinion as he himself stated people who use hm are exploiting the game

[faint birch]

Your correct it's not rewquired but was it intended from the beginning as a valid way to grind? given that some people have more time than others grinding is expected in the original desgin. But was it intended that from the beginning for players to figure out how to super charge the grind...

[faint birch]

Thats the debate some believe it is an exploit ... I didnt create this thread but I do agree with some parts of it ....

Dont take it personally this is a community debate

[pearl briar]

I dont recall reading the words 'I'm right, you're wrong' - so I see nothing saying you can't have an opinion. You are on different sides, and that's fine. He feels HM isn't the way to go - and you got very up in arms over it. EW has final say - in reality. And currently the stance was it isn't cheating. It was nothing against you, he was just stating where he stood on the debate

[fleet pollen]

It is personal because your saying I don't deserve my 21 trophies in 3 or 4 years that's not even 1 trophy a month even though I've worked extremely hard for it sometimes even 14 hours in a day

[fleet pollen]

He went the roundabout way of saying that

[faint birch]

sounds like yours is anormal grind or what I think most people would call a normal grind which is not an exploit .... It's just a grind which everyone can do given time to do it ..... But it's not HM even though you may be using some HM mechanics .... What people are refering to as HM is the ability to litterally stack diamonds on the map in the 10's to,100's .....

[pearl briar]

What, for instance, Ron did. He Herd Managed for.. 7(?) months and is currently pulling a diamond every 10-ish kills.

Every run.

[faint birch]

Yes and there are many others that are doing this .... So was that the original intent of the game design or is it an exploit?

[pearl briar]

This is the hard part of a debate, you need to be aware enough to see folks can have a different opinion - and not be offended when it clashes with yours. JJ thinks HM is bad (at the most simple explanation) and you think it is good. End of it. Discussing and bringing up other points of convo is how it gets worked through. We can just accept that JJ is firmly in the 'no HM' side and continue convo.

[faint birch]

I'm purposely staying away from the word cheating btw

[pearl briar]

Where it gets convoluted is when folks just get heated and resort to petulantly arguing

[fleet pollen]

But you said everyone who uses hm is exploiting the game

[faint birch]

Thats the debate is it an exploit or not .... defainatley not cheating because EW says its approved

[pearl briar]

I think it was a hidden mechanic, tbh. Maybe one that they didnt think would be consequential, and therefore - among bugfixes and hotfixes and item releases and reserve content releases, it was never a high prio thing to look into

Just like how the Grelck worked in SP - but not in MP when you are within range of a person

it took like 3 years to fix that

because it was a low prio thing.

[fleet pollen]

So because I use it I'm in the bad and don't deserve the few trophies I have

[sonic robin]

No one is saying that. What is being discussed is whether or not HM is best for the game continuing to make it personal is detracting from the discussion.

[faint birch]

you may be right but I think it goes deeper than that ... I think the players have figured out how trophies spawn at the core level in such a way that it will be hard for the devs to prevent the expoit without changing how trophy spawns work... This would be a huge re-write in the games mechanics ... So rather than say we dont want you to do it even though we have no way of preventing your from doing it .... They just say it's okay

[pearl briar]

This is you taking it to an extreme and taking it personally.

[fleet pollen]

Because it's an attack against people who grind like me so it is personal

[faint birch]

And honestly there propbably is really nothing they can realistically do about it because the game is over 6 years old and they will just come up with a better design in COTW 2.0 ..... I think I mentioned earlier in this thread that they way already be working on a COTW 2.0

[sonic robin]

When has anyone mentioned you? When has anyone said anything close to “if you do HM you’re the worst”. It hasn’t happened. The topic at hand is whether or not the current state of the game with HM is best for the game. I don’t think it is.

[faint birch]

Not personal in my opinion from what you have described you are not using HM to it's full potential

[fleet pollen]

Doesn't matter JJ you said HM is wrong so even if I'm only using a small part I'm still a bad guy

[sonic robin]

You have to choose to take it that way. No one is saying that. Taking it personally is distracting from the point of the letter. We just wanna talk about it without people getting heated from taking it personally

[faint birch]

again this is a community debate no one is purposefully singling you out ...

[fleet pollen]

No but the purpose is to single everyone who uses HM

[sonic robin]

Stop. No it isn’t. Did you read the letter?

[faint birch]

I didn't start the thread or the debate but I see no problem with have a respectful discussion about it

[pearl briar]

You I think are missing the entire point of the discussion - and are just getting offended. If we can't be calm about the discussion I'm gonna ask everyone to take a tenner or something and come back when we arent upsettispaghetti

[faint birch]

I'll be the first to take a break .... night all ....

[fleet pollen]

I know the facts they want ew to remove the ability to do any form of hm

[pearl briar]

Rest well JJ

[sonic robin]

I wrote the letter. You should read it. Have all the information before you assume things.

[pearl briar]

https://tenor.com/view/test-spray-testing-gif-12514630

break time

[sonic robin]

I just really want the discussion to take place. Ideally get a response from EW that gives some clarity.

[pearl briar]

Understandable. HEalthy discussion can be grown from taking pauses when things get too intense. Folks can come back clear minded.

[sonic robin]

Yeah…text is hard to convey tone. I promise you I’m not remotely upset. I just think reading the letter provides the needed context for the discussion. That’s all.

[fleet pollen]

I know whatever I say is wrong in your eyes so it doesn't matter what I say

[sonic robin]

That’s not true…we want a solution that everyone is happy with. Your opinion matters just as much as mine does.

[fleet pollen]

No it doesn't because automatically you say reread the letter again and again

[sonic robin]

Well then let me ask you. What solution do you see to the issue? How do we balance those who use HM and those who don’t like it and think it isn’t good for the game?

[fleet pollen]

Leave it alone trust me ew already went after hm grinding the backlash they received was too much and had to revert the modification a bunch

[austere geyser]

I play on PS4 and I don't play coop just on my own and have been since Christmas holidays, I'm level 60 and only have 8 diamonds, I don't do HM but have seen it on YouTube and the theory is right and has made me change the way I play as I am more selective when moving round the maps but that's how I play and the way other people play doesn't affect me in any way, this is a great conversation and we'll worth it but I feel that youtubers also fabricate their content to show everything in a better light as if they showed the 80 hours of HM they did for stacking it would be boring so down to the individual as to what they belive and how they play

[sonic robin]

Well. I think there’s a solution. It’s just a willingness in both parties and EW to implement it if possible.

[faint birch]

well for there to be a solution then EW needs to admit there is a problem (exploit) .... But honestly I think the issues would be too costly for them to fix at this point .... Which seems to be what Jaxy is saying about this in a round about way ....

[austere geyser]

I don't get what the issue is here it doesn't devalue trophies unless your comparing to someone who plays the game in a different way to you

[sonic robin]

I don’t even think they need to admit it’s a problem per se. Just that it’s an issue that exists and there are differing opinions on it. For a long time bringing up a negative view of HM or grinding was met with harsh responses. The typical reply was “don’t hate on how people play the game”. What is often not communicated is that yeah it doesn’t affect how I play but the game is influence by the popularity of HM. If you finally stumble into a diamond but come to find out people are on #34 of their grind it’s discouraging and can feel like a punishment. I just don’t think HM is what is best

[faint birch]

How many hours have you put into the game in the last 4 months or so ?

[sonic robin]

Hardly any. Like how I concluded my letter I’ve found something else to do. It’s just hard to be motivated knowing that when I get a diamond and it’s my first diamond it’s not that special because if I played differently I could have 10 or more already.

[faint birch]

You dont think they need to admit that there is a problem? Then what would be their motivation to implement a fix?

[faint birch]

That question was intended for the player who said they have 8 diamonds in 4 months play time

@sonic robin I asked you the question why you dont want them to admit there is a problem? What was you purpopse in writing the letter?

[fleet pollen]

If by costly you mean the lose of about half their player base then yeah

[sonic robin]

Well calling it a problem has a negative connotation that some people might not disagree with. Calling it an issue at least validates those who like HM and expresses that their side is just as valid.

[austere geyser]

Not sure how or who you are comparing with here sorry as I don't know other players I can compare with as I play on my own and all my trophies are special I have level 1 trophies in my lodge that I love because they are rare

[faint birch]

Okay then they have to admit that there is an issue in order to motivate them to make a fix

[faint birch]

Interesting that you would use the the phrase ... "they are rare " Are they rare fur types?

[sonic robin]

Yes which is what I want. I want them to publicly address this. I wrote the letter to start the conversation. I wrote the letter to express how I felt. I wrote the letter to show there is another side to this issue. I wrote the letter so that maybe others who agree with me will see there are people like them. I wrote the letter so those that like HM can see not everyone does.

[austere geyser]

I get more frustrated with myself mostly like the other day I had an albino silver fallow and I didnt taxidermy it

[fleet pollen]

There is none the issue is with people realizing it's just a game

[austere geyser]

Sorry yes rare fur type

[celest depot]

The problem is that the HM is being taken as the goal of the game, there are new players entering and the only thing they see in the chats and from content creators is the HM, while there is 90% of the map that is wasted. There's no reward in exploring the map or using other traditional forms of hunting, it's a bunch of wasted content reduced to an arcade shooting gallery.

[fleet pollen]

And not everyone has a decade at 14hrs a day to find a g1

[sonic robin]

That’s true. I just think the unlikeliness of finding a GO makes the moment of actually getting one so special

[faint birch]

and again you are making it an individual issue when it should be what is best for the game as a whole and was HM the orginal intent of the way to play the game

[fleet pollen]

Or giving up because you can't

[sonic robin]

If everyone has GO’s are they really that special anymore? If everyone can get one by using a tactic that wasn’t intended as JJ has questioned then they automatically are attainable for all. It’s easy. That’s what I think so the question is was HM intended and if so can it be adjusted?

[faint birch]

And lets not get confused about what is HM and what is just garden variety grinding

[fleet pollen]

They are for that person

[slate kernel]

Herd management has not been an original intent of a way to play the game, it is very recent

[faint birch]

grinding is not an exploit because everyone can do it given enough time ... Hm is different than grinding .... IMO it exploits the grind and super charges it ....

[austere geyser]

Would you think an option in the settings you can turn off or on yourself like randomisation spawning

[fleet pollen]

So you want only a few people to even ever have a go

[faint birch]

No there have been suggestions made on how the game could be changed to make it easier for casuals to get trophies .... But even with those changes the person who puts in the most time will always have the most trophies

[sonic robin]

I just want every trophy to become meaningful again. HM as JJ puts it well “super charges” the effort. It makes it almost inevitable to get a trophy.

[faint birch]

And you have to define what is consider casual play and what is considered non-causal play

[austere geyser]

But it doesn't just happen there is still like what JJ said a great amount of hours setting it all up, if you put in the hours playing without HM you will get the trophies

[fleet pollen]

I've been doing it just like ibuy even and still I'm not getting like his spawn rate

Can't even get a dime whitetail deer

[austere geyser]

That's because he docs his vids to make it look like he has done it overnight it prob took him 6 months of work

[sonic robin]

That’s true. But if HM cuts the time in half and increases the amount of diamonds you get along the way you kinda stop caring about diamonds…I just don’t think it’s best for the game. It used to be a diamond was amazing and if you had a super rare well that’s really special. Now instead of a GO being the ultimate once in a life time trophy it’s the only thing people care about.

[faint birch]

If your not getting his numbers then you are just grinding (not an exploit ) ....

[fleet pollen]

Not his lives I've seen it all

[austere geyser]

I think it's personal to be honest a diamond is still special to me and if I spend 30 stalking an animal that I think is a gold and it turns out a silver I get angry

[fleet pollen]

For one a game has no feelings so what's best for it doesn't matter

[faint birch]

I'm not saying that HM doesn't take a lot of time and effort ... I'm sure it does .... HM is a type of grind but when it is done correctly it produces tremendous numbers even over an above a typical or normal grind ....

[sonic robin]

I hope this gets some CC attention and even is addressed by EW

[fleet pollen]

Shocker when you do something right in a video game you get rewarded

[sonic robin]

But in there lies the question. Is HM doing something “right”? If so I think it needs to just be stated and we will all know and Ill find something else to do. But if it isn’t then what can we do to improve the game?

[austere geyser]

I think you have started a great conversation here and interesting to see different people's opinions but what is it you would want to see/get out of it

[faint birch]

doing something right when its the way the game was intended to be played is fine and yes deserves reward ... Doing something that was never intended by the games design is not

[fleet pollen]

You do realize heard management is used in real life right

[faint birch]

RL herd managment has nothing to with COTW HM .... totally different

[fleet pollen]

Yeah one is a video game not real

[sonic robin]

Honestly it’s a win in my books that this thread didn’t get shredded and deleted. In an ideal world I’d love to see COTW change for the better. Acknowledgment and explanation from the devs would be nice. Creating an understanding within the community that there are other ways to play would also be good. Honestly so far the conversation has been a win too. This is a chance for the community to come together to find a solution and for EW to show they listen and if possible implement it.

[fleet pollen]

Following what you say the game would lose out

[austere geyser]

For me maybe the content creators should have disclaimers at beginning of every vid

[sonic robin]

Why?

[fleet pollen]

Because removing hm would make the game even less realistic for 1 and 2 more than half would quit playing

[faint birch]

Well the only way you will know if this thread achieved that goal is to wait for COTW 2.0 .... If HM no longer works in COTW 2.0 then that will be the devs admission that its really is not the way they want players to play the game .... And i cant honestly believe that killing 10 or hundreds of diamonds a week or a month was their original intent

[sonic robin]

I’m sorry but 1) I disagree it makes it less realistic. 2) if the solution pleases both sides I don’t think this would happen.

[austere geyser]

I used to watch people talking about crypto tokens and they had a disclaimer stating it's not financial advice so maybe content creators should have something staying that although they are displaying a personal choice of play that there are other ways to play the game

[fleet pollen]

So using hm like they do in real life makes it un realistic

[sonic robin]

It’s a stretch to call HM in COTW equivalent to HM in real life. It just isn’t the same thing.

[glossy sun]

I don't believe people will quit when Thay can just change there hunting stile

[fleet pollen]

I do believe they will quit because no chance to get GO so no reason to play

[sonic robin]

Ok well why don’t you propose a solution that accommodates both opinions? Leaving it as is isn’t an option

[glossy sun]

And with only a faction of the community in this discord to not Abel to vote or comment

[fleet pollen]

You can't

[faint birch]

But it is an option because the devs say HM is ok ???

[sonic robin]

I more meant in the sense of it isn’t an option as a proposed solution. It very well may be impossible to change the game mechanics. But if EW comes out and says that in relation to this issue then it is what it is. But to not try to me would be a disservice to the game. We want it to be the best it can be.

[fleet pollen]

There's only 2 options for them 1 stick with how they have been doing it which is working or 2 removal of all hm and lose so many customers that you won't recover

[faint birch]

agreed I would like them to address the HM exploit with a possible fix ... But I think Jaxy's response indicates that its something that wont be fixed .... Like cross platform MP is an issue they are not willing to address ..... too difficult ... too time consuming ... not worth the effort ... too many other things that they could better spend their time on ....

[sonic robin]

Maybe but we can try!

[fleet pollen]

Try to destroy the game ok I get it

It's what you 2 want apparently

[faint birch]

I'm not faulting or criticizing the devs for their decision not to deal with it .... They have to look at a lot more variables than we do .... Like where are they headed with this version of the game .... How much longevity does this game have left?

[sonic robin]

That’s all true but communicate that. Have some sort of statement or way of communicating this stuff. If there sitting on a new game release fine but that doesn’t mean they can’t communicate on this issue

[faint birch]

You can bet when COTW 2.0 comes out the first thing the player base will do is try HM to see if it still works the same

[fleet pollen]

And if it doesn't watch it crash and burn

[sonic robin]

Even still Classic is still played. If they want COTW to be played like classic still is then need to define what it is.

[faint birch]

I think they did communicate it ... they said they dont consider it an issue .... Or not an issue that they are willing to address at this point .... Now that doesnt necessarily mean if they discover some quick and easy fix that they wont do it .... But if my guess is correct I don't think there is a quick and easy solution

[sonic robin]

Well from what I understand from the stream what was communicated was that it isn’t cheating. Fine don’t call it cheating. Talk about whether or not it was intended or if it’s just something discovered and exploded too fast to control.

[faint birch]

well IMO HM has completed killed COTW to be a game like classic .... in other words HM has ruined COTW long term play ability ..... People will still play COTW but as soon as COTW 2 shows up then they wont be going back to COTW 1 .... Because why would you?

[sonic robin]

I could see it working as classic is outdated as well COTW keeps its arcade style and 2.0 is a classic replacement. More realistic and challenging. Then you have a game for each type of player.

[faint birch]

I dont really see COTW 2.0 as being less arcadey than COTW 1 ... They have built a great customer base around that arcadey style of hunting sim .... But if COTW 2 doesnt have HM and COTW 1 does then why would you still play COTW 1

[cursive glade]

I personally don't care how many GOs or rares or diamonds anyone has. It's not a competitive game. I play to just relax and wind down from my day. I've tried HM and play it normally. I enjoyed them both. I did get a little more diamonds with HM but it didn't really seem to affect rares and GOs. I say play how you like.

@faint birch The arcadey style is what I like about call of the wild. I honestly wish it was a little more arcadey. I don't really care about true to life simulation. That's why I don't like woth. It's to much of a simulation. I have real hunting to get skunked by 🤣. I want to actually kill things in my video games.

[fleet pollen]

I will not play cotw 2 unless there is hm in it too

[austere geyser]

Have your say

https://survey.alchemer.eu/s3/90554512/The-Hunter-COTW-CSAT-April-2023

[fleet pollen]

Already done the survey

But no matter what I won't be buying or paying cotw 2.0 at all if there is no hm

[sonic robin]

We aren’t saying no HM. We are saying intentional, balanced HM.

[faint birch]

I agree COTW style scratches that itch for me ... It's not supper arcadey like you see in past hunting games .... It's arcadey with just enough reality for me to enjoy ... I havent played WOTH but I understand that those who dont like it feel like it's too much work ....

[unique zealot]

How dare people play the game like actual real ranches/reserves and manage populations for bigger animals. Outrageous. 🤣

On a non-sarcastic note... the only possible way HM "ruins" anything is if you're only playing the game for the recognition of other people... if so, take a second look at your priorities.

[sonic robin]

I disagree. I think the sheer number of trophies HM brings in devalues them and it isnt what is best for this game.

[unique zealot]

Only if you judge the value based on what others think. I still love every time I get a gold or even diamond because I play for myself.

[sonic robin]

But is getting 15 diamonds a day the best thing for the game?

[coral birch]

I think for the most part HM and non-HM grinders can co-exist but it is inevitable that the non-HM users will feel they get the short end of the stick by getting 5% as many trophies as those who use it. The options are to stick to your guns, or go do HM. For those who don't switch to HM, there is a reason. And one of, if not the very core reason is its affect on diamonds. I think people don't quite grasp what "devaluing trophies" means... and I doubt I can articulate it well, but I will try. I don't care if your HM grind has produced 2500 diamonds, 4 SRs and 19 GOs. But I do care if mine does. I like to see 9 - LEGENDARY pop up on screen and get that heart-skips-a-beat feeling. And I know for me, after probably 100 diamonds or so of any given species, I won't get that any more. I mean... a level 3 Revontuli duck does it, a level 3 cinnamon teal does not. Why? I have shot a ton of diamond cinnamon teals xD But then this gets to why I believe this discussion a) is ongoing right now and b) caught fire like it did. We know there is debate as to whether or not HM as a tactic was intended, thats undeniable. And frankly, I don't think it was. It seems impossible to me that being able to shoot 100 diamonds a week could have ever been something that developers thought would make sense. They balance everything. We can't shoot whitetail with a .300. Why? Game balance. HM is actually taking advantage of the balancing act that the devs introduced to prevent maps being absolutely loaded with diamonds and to prevent maps being devoid of them. But whether or not it's intended, there are going to be some who won't use it because they fear it will ruin the game. I know it would ruin the gameplay experience for me. My concern and the reason I have authored this novel of a post is that I don't want people to not see that side of it, and ruin the enjoyment of a game that has brought me 6100 hours of fun. I believe I am correct in saying that the intentions behind most who oppose HM fall along these lines. I don't want it removed. I think its clear it won't be. But at least the conversation allows people to see both sides.

Off to the publishers I go 😂 sorry for the long read

[pearl briar]

No no, don't apologize. This is the exact kind of discussion we need in the topic. Less frustrated verbal slaps and more articulated thought provocation.

[coral birch]

I appreciate it! It's been really cool to see what this thread has brought actually. I have definitely seen an openness to see both sides from a lot of people which is fantastic and I feel I have a little better understanding as to why people with HM like it. I really have no idea what the ultimate solution is, or if there actually is one, but it absolutely shows that a lot of people really care about the game and its future. Can't be mad at that no matter what!

[unique zealot]

I dunno what or who you're watching but I don't know a single person getting 15 a day... I usually don't even get one a day. Maybe one every few days. But yes... it is the best thing for the game IF that is what people want out of it.

If you're letting how other people play a single player game ruin your own experience? That's on you. Not on EW.

[sonic robin]

If you wanna say its on me fine. And this is what I'm doing about it. Just talking about it and expressing different perspectives. Dismissing it isn't the answer. Talking about it and seeing what everyone thinks with the goal of bettering the game for everyone is a good thing.

[unique zealot]

It's already been talked about is the problem...

[torn siren]

Just to add, people can easily get 10+ diamonds a day with herd management, I’ve seen it multiple times from different people

[celest depot]

Everyone still doesn't see why the HM is a problem..
It is a valid game modality, yes it is, BUT right now it is the only quick way to get to the "meta" trophy of the game, THERE ARE NO rewards or incentives to do other forms of hunting or traversing the maps or using other content that does not It's shooting across a lake, the goal of the game is stuck at that.

[unique zealot]

Who? People playing 8-12hrs a day? Ok, sure. But that is how many % of the player base?

[celest depot]

The solution is not to eliminate it, it is to add other ways to achieve the goals of the game without having to abuse that modality.

[torn siren]

The stat I’ve heard multiple times across the board is a diamond every 10 kills, so it’s not only people with tons of time no

[unique zealot]

References would be helpful. Your experience is opposite of everything I've seen for the average player, even using HM, so we're at a moot point currently. I'd gladly change my tune if proven otherwise though.

[torn siren]

It’s mostly from players/ individuals I’ve seen posting on social media/YouTube so unfortunately remembering names of people (especially with a memory for them like mine 🙈) is a little tough! But I’ve seen it especially with reference to reds, fallow and whitetail

[unique zealot]

So what you're saying is the very few people following "the meta" for a single player hunting game should dictate how the rest of us play, or how we feel about the game? Seems like a bad design philosophy.

[unique zealot]

Hey that's fair enough! Just saying that without references or proof then I'ma stick to my current experience. 🙂

[sonic robin]

Listen I am beginning to understand the live and let live idea. However, another side to it is the fact that this game has such a community. People can come and share their stuff and regardless of whether or not it's intended, being able to show off trophies adds a competitive element. What if COTW had competitions? Then you're forced to use HM to even have a chance of competing. I think overall HM as is isn't it's best form.

[cursive glade]

@torn siren This must be only the people that don't have a job. I wasn't getting that when heard manged 🤣 I agree there probably is some that do but unfortunately I wasn't.

[pearl briar]

Literally go lookin the fabled chat, Ron posts us a diamond every time he takes one - and he HIMSELF is quoted at 1 per ten-ish kills

It's like two inches down, in the side bar here

There's a name/reference for you guys -

[torn siren]

That’s helpful thanks TYK! I also don’t want to make anyone feel like I’m calling them out- hope that makes sense!

[pearl briar]

And it's not so much a problem that it's happening, I think the bigger problem is that it's high volume folks who have a strong following. For instance, if some of the bigger names were to pimp the HM vein of playing as the way to score diamonds etc, it eclipses that others can ALSO get them.. But it mainlines the speed and efficacy at which folks can do it

[unique zealot]

I get where you're coming from. I do, trust me. However, what you're not understanding is that the viewpoint you are proposing is not accurate to your average player, and that working on "ifs" and "buts" is not good design or based in reality.

You are looking at the very, very select few and letting it dictate your own view of the game based on something that is not relevant to most people. You are not forced to do anything.

@pearl briar I will check the reference after this. Thank you for giving it. I will ask that you please see above regarding average player vs select minority though.

[coral birch]

Ron's grind is a good example. He spent a lot of time really trying to understand HM. And admittedly, it does time to get HM going well as I understand it. But even if he has 500 hours getting it to this point, he will get more diamonds in the next 50 hours than I would get in 550 hours of regular grinding xD I think it always will sway that direction

[pearl briar]

You misunderstand which side of the fence I'm on, friend. I don't carehow you play the game, I was interjecting a name and reference

[pearl briar]

Exactly, I think he said it was like 7 or more months setting it all up

[unique zealot]

#🦌︴great-ones message here is ron himself saying that it is closer to 1-in-100. Even then, he is someone who plays consistently and for much longer and harder than your average player does...

[pearl briar]

And yes - it absolutely does impact the gradient curve of diamonds that you receive.

[coral birch]

You could very well be correct that we only see the most visible examples and those dont represent the average player. That said, the average player in almost any discord community will have the same perception as Soup. That is everywhere and done by everyone. The posts are all over the place! As a percentage of the entire playerbase, it might be smallish, but it appears large for sure!

[lament aspen]

I agree with this. And actually thats more of an issue with the grinding method in general. I think it's unfair for all the people who bought this game looking for a "true hunting experience, that the only way to get the ultimate trophy is through the use of a grinding that is far from being a true hunting experience, HM or not. A solution to this, as suggested by other people, could be to change the spawn mechanics of the GO so it fits both playstyles, maybe by making it something that can randomly spawn when you join the map. I think that would also curb the expansion of HM since new players wouldn't have such a huge incentive to get involved in all the grinding stuff from the start.

[coral birch]

Those are bears, which are like the only great one that isn't herd managed to death haha

[pearl briar]

And here he is not two days prior telling us how frequently he was getting them. #🦌︴great-ones message

[sonic robin]

I don't understand why I'm not considered an "average player"? I don't spend hours playing this game or have it as my livelihood. To say my perspective is a minority perspective and shouldn't be listened to defeats the whole purpose of this thread.

[pearl briar]

He is putting serious hours into it though -

[coral birch]

This is actually what I am most in favor of. This feels doable as well. There are 4 great one species. The change would be much smaller scale than changing respawns as a whole, surely. Tho not "easy" by any means I'd imagine

[pearl briar]

It would certainly be some Big Math to be determined by the Devs haha

I think also maybe putting in an if/then situation/clause in the code.. Like If WT GO is available on map, Then cannot spawn a sequential one

to prevent folks GO stacking

[sonic robin]

One thing that would need to be figured out is if a GO has a set random ability to spawn when you join a map does it stay if you leave without finding it? Like a one shot opportunity type deal?

[unique zealot]

@coral birch Thank you for the context. I was just searching his post history and saw that and it struck me as contradictory to what people were saying.

@pearl briar Please see above.

@sonic robin I never said you weren't an average player. I never said that you shouldn't be listened to. I said that your viewpoint is not favorable to good game design because it is based in emotion not logic. You're letting a niche circumstance influence the overarching view of the game.

[coral birch]

Do you mean currently or like "if it should work that way"

[celest depot]

Here I had placed a solution that could become feasible so that the players go through the entire map, the mission system is used and everyone obtains their GO in a different way without having to eliminate the HM
#1096112572517851307 message

[sonic robin]

Im more asking if it should work that way.

[lament aspen]

Yeah man, I feel it should be doable but who knows

[sonic robin]

I must've misunderstood what you were trying to say. My apologies.

[coral birch]

Thats an interesting idea. I think due to unpredictability with crashes, internet outages, etc, its probably best they are persistent on the map

[pearl briar]

@unique zealot Apologies, but if you could link me to where exactly you're intending me to read? There's a lot in this topic in the last 15 minutes

[unique zealot]

It's all good. Internet, especially text, makes things... difficult... to say the least.

Tyk: Just what I said to Flinter. 😂 "Thank you for the context. I was just searching his post history and saw that and it struck me as contradictory to what people were saying."

[pearl briar]

Gotcha, I Was scrolling like 'I.. I'm lost'

[unique zealot]

That's actually a really cool idea!

[sonic robin]

Thats true. However I can think of a problem that would cause

[celest depot]

I think that way the players would move around the map filling in the Genetic Score differently since all the districts do not have the same landscapes and animals.
In any case, the Hunt Club already works, if the counter increases due to the completion of the missions or deaths in this way, it would still be viable.

[unique zealot]

It would also encourage using whole maps instead of just certain spots.

[lament aspen]

Both ways would come with a few downsides. I think they should despawn whenever you leave the map to make them a bit more special. Spawn mashing could become an issue both ways tho.

[sonic robin]

Exactly the issue i was thinking of.

[unique zealot]

Either that or to keep them special and rare, have them be persistent but you have to "up the score" of the whole map to get a spawn to happen, and then it can spawn anywhere on the map.

[sonic robin]

Yeah i think that was the premise of Rexio's idea.

[unique zealot]

Oh, my bad. I thought he was saying each district was independent. Like, District 1 could be maxed, then activate a GO spawn even if the other districts aren't maxed.

[sonic robin]

You're right. I guess treating the map as a whole rather than districts would be better though. You have to max out the each area to have a GO spawn somewhere on the whole map.

[unique zealot]

It would be an epic undertaking worthy of a GO for sure.

[faint birch]

This would be my questions to EW : ... In the context of game design and development how would you define an exploit?

[sonic robin]

And so if you grind you can boost the numbers up faster. If you don't its still attainable but it takes time.

[faint birch]

And if you (EW) find HM to be an exploit then you have an obligation to at lease call it what you believe it to be

[hushed marlin]

would it reset after killing the GO?

[unique zealot]

Correct. Plus it adds the realism of having to manage genetics and population numbers. (which is why I like HM tbh... not for the diamonds but for the management aspect of caring for and cultivating good populations)

[sonic robin]

I think so yeah. I think that would be best

[faint birch]

If you believe it's an exploit of the original design and intent of the game then you can at least say officially that CC's and offical moderators should not promote it and that you hope the players will not use it

[hushed marlin]

yeah since multiple maps have GO species such as whitetail and red deer, you could easily rotate between maps and kill GO's if the numbers didnt reset lol

[celest depot]

If you take the mission from the Hunt Club that spawns the GO, the genetics will reset

[unique zealot]

A bit of a damper on the realism part, but it would only make sense for it to reset somehow honestly.

[celest depot]

Of course this mission should only be able to be taken once a week xD
You can continue to fill up your Genetics points but not take another quest that same week, that way there will be no abuse of the system

Suppose that activating the mission that spawns the GO requires 300 Genetics points, 3 districts should be completed, once the mission is activated those points are consumed, but other Districts should have to be used next time so that they do not continue hunting in the same ones.
they will have to balance it :S

[unique zealot]

Could also make it so that the rare exception of players (such as Ron) could fill the genetics in a week by grinding hard, but for others it would take around a month or so. That would take a lot of testing and averaging of hours and such to figure out though... big undertaking.

[hollow garnet]

What if herd management was altered so that it’s now an intentional mechanic? Say, for example, with genetics like I mentioned in a separate forum or such. If it was an intentional way of manipulating herds as implemented by the devs, then would you still be opposed to it? Because the biggest thing I’m getting from the people opposed to it is that it’s unintentional

Also, the one main thing I feel is never brought up in this argument is that anyone can choose to herd manage themselves. It’s not like only a select few privileged individuals have access to it. Anyone who plays the game right now can herd manage the same way the people who are currently doing it are, there’s nothing stopping you from playing this way as well. I feel it’s a bit unfair to call out HM users as people who exploit when you strictly choose to use a playstyle that doesn’t require as much fine tuning and is much more causal but doesn’t reward you

I know I keep going back to the Minecraft mob farming/speedrunning example a lot but it’s the one I’m most familiar with. Should people who choose to play the game casually be upset at the people who set up mob farms and rack up dozens of levels and hundreds of good loot items within an hour just because they’re being rewarded for knowing their way around the mechanics? I don’t think so. Both of these games, whether intentional or not, have different methods of gameplay. Some more rewarding than others if you put the time into it to set up properly

Just gonna restate it in case people haven’t read through this forum, I’m not against the idea of EW adjusting HM. I would very much like it if they made it more of an intentional mechanic that requires more thought and carefulness in the animals you shoot to get better results instead of just shooting big fellas

[pearl briar]

honestly I like the minecraft comparison - it'S something the majority of us would be likely to understand

[hollow garnet]

Yeah. I can understand the other side of the argument about how HM is an unintentional exploit mechanic. That’s literally what speedrunning in Minecraft is. But not choosing to play that way then being upset that you aren’t rewarded as much isn’t exactly fair in my opinion, as the people who choose to HM choose to play a very specific way that yields higher rewards

[fleet pollen]

Cotw is 1,000,000,000 times better

[hollow garnet]

I think my main problem with HM is, just like with grinding, it’s extremely monotonous. If they adjusted it to require you to pick and choose carefully which stags you shoot to get better respawns I’d be down for that

[pearl briar]

I absolutely get that, and agree. I cant be mad that my friends are decked out in netherite armor, when I'm the most casual player of the bunch, but they're out conquering the world.. and I'm catching animals for my zoo display.

[unique zealot]

ok, but what's cooler... some random shiny armor, or a bunch of cute animals you can pet whenever? Just sayin'. (Also, totally off topic, I'll show myself out.)

[hollow garnet]

You know though, genetics is a way that could still yield insane results but also give casual players a chance to boost their trophy yield as well. Sadly Jaxy confirmed that it will never happen due to the game engine’s age and limitations

[unique zealot]

Good idea for COTW 2 though.

[hollow garnet]

Yup

[celest depot]

It is not necessary to change anything, with the Hunt Club counted missions that accumulate points is enough

[coral birch]

That’s honestly what makes the whole conversation so challenging to navigate and probably why its often kind of charged. It is possible for everyone to do. For those who don’t, it’s not that they can’t, it’s that they won’t for reasons they feel are worth missing out on a boatload of trophies for. (I know you know all this, just kinda putting it there and talking myself through it as well lol) I like the idea of it being made intentional in some way a lot!

[hollow garnet]

Personally? I don’t think hunt club missions should reward you with GOs. It feels exactly like doing the Medved missions and getting an albino diamond brown bear. By technicality? Sure it’s a super rare. But it isn’t earned and literally anyone who has Medved can get it. Same with GOs from missions. Sure, it says 10 fabled on its level and sure I get the great one medal, but it doesn’t have that same value to me as if I got it through initial spawns or through grinding

[unique zealot]

Fair point. Perhaps having increased genetic levels increases the chance of spawn for a GO?

[celest depot]

For example, "there are too many females in your district: hunt 5", "there are too many small males hunt 5 2-minor" or "let's see how your genetics are going "select 1 male 3-very easy with binoculars", As long as each mission grants points and this can be accumulated to buy a mission that spawns a GO, it's great

[kind copper]

Jaxy reading the chat and be like: "Why the hell did I even respond to that comment on the stream" 😂

[hollow garnet]

Hmmm, I dunno. It sounds good on paper but to me it feels less like a trophy and more like an item you unlock through missions. Even with herd management, you’re never guaranteed a great one. There’s still that random factor to it

[celest depot]

The question is to give everyone a chance and not hide the great trophy behind a single mechanic it doesn't use all the game resources

[hollow garnet]

That’s why I believe the genetics mechanic has the most potential out of any solution. Both grinders and casual players can work towards it without one or the other being less rewarded for their style of play

[unique zealot]

Hm.... what if overall map genetics levels increased GO spawn %, as well as time between GO spawns? What I mean is this... (numbers are completely random for sake of example)

GO spawn chance normally = 1%

Map area 1: 70% Genetics
MA 2: 40%
MA 3: 30%
MA 4: 80%
etc etc
Map avg: %50

GO Spawn chance is increasee by X% for genetics levels in each area. (X to be determined by devs of course)

In addition, there could be a multiplier based on time since last GO spawn (in ingame hours played) that would allow casual players to have a chance, but let grinders still get more of them due to working "harder" for them. Aka, putting in more hours.

Time since last GO spawn on map:
10 hours played = 1x
25 hours = 2x
50 hours = 3x
100 hours = 4x

So, say the map is 50% genetic level overall, that'd be 1.5% GO spawn, plus 50 hours played since last GO spawn = 4.5% spawn chance instead of 1%

Spawn chance would still be random, but both the amount of work (genetics management), and the amount of time (hours played) would be taken into consideration.

Again, numbers are completely random for sake of example to communicate the idea.

[hollow garnet]

Well considering the base spawn rate for diamonds is 1/100 which is 1%, and GOs are 100x as rare, their spawn rate would be around 1/10,000 or 0.01%
If really good genetics could double it to 1/5000, or 0.02%, that would still be a major increase. As you’re twice as likely to spawn a GO. It’s still rare but it’s more attainable

This is, of course, going off of averages in spawn rates around the community

[vocal spruce]

All this genetics talk...sounds like we should all go play woth 🥱

[hollow garnet]

See it’ll be like way of the hunter except actually good

[pearl briar]

retroactive thought - who's paying the Dev's to do all this mechanic overhaul to the game?

[unique zealot]

I mean, I thought we were talking about CotW 2 possibility seeing as they said they won't do it to CotW due to age and engine issues.

but honestly, good point.

[pearl briar]

Ah I mighta missed that part? I paused to help husbro cook dinner

[hollow garnet]

Uhhh, next DLC 👍

[pearl briar]

20$ fee

[unique zealot]

||Feel like they should charge more for reserve DLCs anyways tbh...||

[hollow garnet]

I don’t. I like that it’s so fairly priced

[vocal spruce]

I brought that up yesterday. I think the cost and effort required to redo this doesn't have any incentive and a new game would be the way to change anything.

[pearl briar]

Down side - there's still so much life in this game, else they'd slow down pumping all the new content to us and really focus inward of making the next gen on UTD engines

[faint birch]

I posted this earlier .. a simple question to ask EW .... In the context of game design and development define what an exploit is?

Then ask if HM fits into their definition of an exploit ....

And if they can honestly say that it is an exploit which misuses the original design mechanics and intent of the game then they are obligated to at least be honest with us about it

if they determine that it is an exploit even if they dont have the time or resources to do anything about it ... They can at least say it's an exploit and ask the official CC's and moderators not to endorse it and respectfully ask the players not to use HM....

If it truly is an exploit that should be their official response and would be what is best for the game

[cursive glade]

Before we get COTW 2 could we at least get a new customizable trophy lodge with a trophy manager filter🤣

[faint birch]

certainly with all the trophies being generated by HM they at least owe us a filter 😄

[celest depot]

CotW 2 will not happen, at least not in the next 3 years since they are developing another game at the moment

[crisp sun]

My point exactly, if we aren't going to deal with actual people exploiting the game then why even bother changing the borders of the box within the game.

[unique zealot]

They have. It doesn't. They have been honest, some people just don't like the answer they got. According to your conditions, the discussion is now over.

However, this thread has grown into much more. It is now a "how to make HM better" instead, which is a positive subject and a good idea to talk about for the future.

[vocal spruce]

If you wouldn't mind linking where they have talked about it in any detail

[unique zealot]

https://youtube.com/@ExpansiveWorlds

https://m.twitch.tv/expansiveworlds

Numerous official streams on twitch and youtube. They are called official for a reason.

They have said all that needs to be said regarding their viewpoint of it.

Again, just because people don't like their answer doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

[vocal spruce]

Im not sorting through all of their streams. Just because they are official doesn't mean its been covered and from what I have heard said on stream its still a gray area.

[pearl briar]

Pretty sure the whole start of this thread was because someone asked in like this week or last weeks stream - and got and answer

so at most that would only be 4 streams to paw through

and I bet others who witnessed it could possibly narrow it down further for you

[vocal spruce]

Got an unclear answer from what I was reading here.

[hushed marlin]

scarecrow has a clip of it in his video

[pearl briar]

Last stream a question was asked about Herd Management and whether or not it is cheating. I’m not going to debate that topic. However, the response given was that it is in fact a viable tactic and that EW is “surprised it’s even a conversation” that it may be considered cheating.

I wouldn't consider that unclear - EW finds it viable. They're surprised folks are salted about it. That comes across as very black and white, to me.

[hushed marlin]

@vocal spruce 41:45 in the easter cosmetics stream in EW livestream on yt

[sonic robin]

I think its fair to point out that the question was cheating. Cheating and exploits are technically different. So one could say it isnt cheating while it is exploiting. So in fairness asking whether or not they think its an exploit is fair imo.

[pearl briar]

That is a fair clarification.

[sonic robin]

Yeah I think their position on whether its cheating is clear. Even if they don't view it as an exploit I do think its a fair position to disagree with them on it until they come out with a comprehensive statement as to why exists and its purpose.

[pearl briar]

That's a good stance, IMO

[sonic robin]

Heres hoping we get a statement! 🤞

[vocal spruce]

No its not I just hadn't seen this or seen anything where they touched on it so I wasn't sure.

[pearl briar]

ah, no worry

[faint birch]

Thanks for making that distinction clear .... couldnt have said it better myself 👍

And if they consider it to be an exploit they can an still make that clear and ask CC's and players not to do it .... I understand if they don't have the time and resources to do anything about it at this point ... but they can at least acknowledge it as such ....

[astral yew]

So uh.... When's Africa 2 or Australia coming out? XD

[hollow garnet]

👹👹👹

[astral yew]

I'm sorry I had to xD.

[edgy patrol]

I'm reading this thread and it makes me a little sad 🥹
Such a big theme: What is the opinion on HM, asking for the explanation, and questions like: is it even okay or is it some kind of exploit?

🔹 Each game works according to the established mechanics and in the game theHunter, the respawn system is one of them. This respawn system was designed and set up by the devs long time before the first content creator came up with the HM guide. By the way, Jaxy has also hinted and directed the community several times in the past with the words, I quote, Herd Management works, end of quote. So this is not a new mechanic or a new exploit from the last few months.

🔹I think the whole HM boom is here because well-known cotw content creators learned HM and began to practice it fully. If some "unknown" hunter achieved similar results in the past, he was usually automatically considered as a cheater.

🔹 Well, I'm not a big grinder, I rather play COTW in a more relaxed style. But it's crystal clear to me ** if there are rare trophies** in the game, and especially Great One type trophies, there is also some mechanism to achieve those trophies more efficiently and the community will always discover it sooner or later.

🌞 And I think that's it! The community has just learned how to get more diamonds or rare trophies in a game more efficiently. 🙂

[coral birch]

I would say you are exactly correct! But thats also why the thread has blown up at the moment. Diamonds are able to be achieved so efficiently via HM that some (myself included) feel that it may negatively impact the user's experience of the game. Therefore a conversation should be had as to how true or untrue that may be, and how to best handle it. I actually think this particular thread has been the most positive thing thats addressed HM from either side in a while. People who are for HM and against it have been able to speak their mind, and allow the others to see where they're coming from.

I don't think anyone truly expects the game itself to change 6+ years in at a fundamental level. But I do think its reasonable to want clarity, which this thread is certainly providing from my perspective 🙂

[vocal spruce]

Bro rendered all my attempts to explain this over the past 6 months useless. 10/10 will copy paste this in future debates and arguments

[heavy marsh]

I try to keep it as real as possible when I play the game now. I have played it since the beginning and have since restarted and now play without glowing tracks, sounds clues, spatial cones and outlines. It has much more rewarding for me and I don't ever concern myself with the way others play the game. Much like real hunting I would never hunt over bait, and really don't consider it hunting as much as it's just shooting, but if it's legal then people should be allowed to do it.
I say each to his own and let people have their own experience. If people want to brag about a lodge full of rares and diamonds that they shot by an easier means oh well. Let them. I just care about my own trophies and how I went about shooting them.

[astral yew]

I think I might of thought of something that could help both sides. However it would piss alot of people off probably...... Weekly or Monthly population resets done by e.w. Now obviously its not a permanent solution but I think it could help for awhile or maybe it does work out well and is a permanent solution. (I already feel alot of no's coming xD)

[glossy sun]

The game wold be far to difficult @astral yew I believe u could restart your own maps

[vocal spruce]

personally I would like a new pop every session but pop resetting is looked down on so I dont

[inland cave]

God I just scrolled to the end and this thread is sooo long

[fringe vine]

Considering how often the game tends to crash, I think this is a terrible idea.

[inland cave]

In my opinion Herd Managment is a way to play the game, some call it cheating but I understand, I got my first dime not herd managing and i loved it as much as every dime I get herd managing

[mortal umbra]

Now I have the dilemma of buying my next reserve dlc in release order (it would be SRP) or Rancho next (sorry for the off topic!) ❤️

[slow blade]

I’m very much a ..eh.. leisure hunter in COTW. I play single, I don’t use trophy lodges at all.
I do/(did?) enjoy the excitement, spotting the sudden diamond. You know “skip a heartbeat”. I used to feel excited to share that diamond in the discord, not for recognition. But to share the joy.
Now, to me it feels like that at least, there is no shared joy over (the one) diamond. So I have nowhere to go, to share the joy of my diamond.
It’s like standing in line with your little diamond something, and in front and behind you, there are numerous truckloads of diamonds and GO’s.
I just leave the queue with a sigh. I don’t want to drop my lovely diamond into the ocean of other diamonds anymore. COTW has moved on… it seems.

[vocal spruce]

Its considered a terrible idea by most for a number of reasons. I have reset pop files a few times trying to fix spawns and its never caused any issue tho.

[fringe vine]

There are loads of diamonds posted that have nothing to do with HM

[astral yew]

Ok maybe I should've explained why I think its a good idea, while also listing why its not
Positive 1 to pop resets. fresh maps means people would explore their maps alot for trophies of most or all maps because fresh maps seem to always have something good on them plus it would increase casual players chances of getting a great one from Initial spawns without changing great one spawn rates or having to do really heavy grinding.
Positive 2. More work would goes towards hm grinds because zones would move around hopefully giving players that that don't use it to at least respect those that do.
Positive 3. They wouldn't have to change anything in the spawning system to achieve it.
Negatives ( I just thought of today )

1. Could chase away players that don't understand what's happening or don't want it.
2. Could mess up stuff In the coding which is probably why they don't want to do it often.
   3 could increase trading.
   Personally i don't want it to happen however I think its the only answer ( without major reworks to the spawning system ) that could work for both sides of the argument.

I hope that at least gives context as to why I thought of it

[fringe vine]

Wouldn't this make grinding completely pointless? Or am I missing something?

[astral yew]

If you mean would this reset go grind " progress"? No because there's no such thing as true progress in any grind since its all rng. You have the same odds of getting 1 in 1 kill as to 5000. If your 500 kills into a grind there's no oh I'm close to a great one because its up to rng and not a set number of kills

[glossy sun]

You realize that we dont play games for a living the game wold become impossible to get the go and a more of race to get it before time runs out
This wold encourage moding swapping trading and so on I think this is a rely bad idare @astral yew

[pearl briar]

I think the way crowbro is putting it, a constant pop reset would maybe proc an initial spawn chance more frequently

I don't think it's a terrible idea, but I don't think I'd like it.
I like knowing my herds, I like knowing the zones they frequent

I'd be aggravated to have to do that all over again

Every. Single. Time.

[fleet pollen]

A pop reset every session would be the absolute worst idea

[glossy sun]

If Thay do that idare I do think there be no point on the normal player

[solemn dragon]

Great discussion. Waiting on a response from a couple of the main proponents of HM...

[glossy sun]

I'd spend all my time recovering my zones

I've spent about 4 mouth on one map I've got countless zones was considering a map grind this wold be impossible if this was implemented

[fleet pollen]

People here wanna screw over casual players and grinders especially casual grinders

[glossy sun]

I'm not sure some the players value there own trophy considering the fun time effort they spent getting them all they see is some you tube person or twitch player rolling in diamonds that's all Thay do one day Thay will have all the trophy then what ?

Just do u enjoy your game
All seems like your jealous because some big hit got a bigger bunny than u or something I don't know

[astral yew]

Not every session just monthly if it was done. But again I don't want it, mainly just thinking out loud rn

[fleet pollen]

Still took me over a month to get GO even with HM

[celest depot]

I think it should be clarified that now the spawn points are random within the habitat range, restart the population, make the spawn points change and you must wait for the animals to reach the areas of need at each time for them to activate again and the need areas marked on the map don't work, plus all the need areas marked for lone animals disappear..
I think we all know the "deserted map" effect after every popreset or starting a new map, today a population restart is a catastrophe

[hollow garnet]

I think a far better choice would be a pop reset once every 6 months or something, for example along with every major content drop. This is just frequent enough to keep people coming back but not too frequent to where you can’t even check more than 1 map fully before a reset

[fleet pollen]

I'd never have go that way either it took me 3-4 years to get go

[hollow garnet]

There’s gotta be a balance between too frequent and too infrequent. And twice a year is good enough for me I feel

[fleet pollen]

No pop reset is necessary

Only when they add a go for a certain specific species

[hollow garnet]

It’s still just a thought. I’d be completely down for occasional pop resets every now and then

[fleet pollen]

No casual player would ever have a G0 if did that

[hollow garnet]

If anything it would make it easier. Every pop reset there’d be how many maps with potential GO initial spawns on it? The whole idea is to give casual players a chance to get GOs without grinding

[fleet pollen]

There's no initial G0 anymore

They removed that as of the moose GO update in December

[hollow garnet]

It’s been straight up confirmed that they not only can be initial spawns, but weren’t ever not able to be initial spawns. Where’s your source?

[fleet pollen]

There would have been GO mose day 1 if there were GO initial spawns still

[hollow garnet]

There were though, I remember seeing atleast 3 or 4 initial spawn moose GOs the very first week it came out. I remember seeing an initial spawn black bear GO of all things shortly after

[fleet pollen]

There actually wasn't not moose anyway

[hollow garnet]

So, tell me. Other than you specifically not seeing any, what source do you have that initial spawn GOs aren’t a thing

[fleet pollen]

Ask any cotw creator

[hollow garnet]

Because they have access to all the info that the devs have right? Mind you, the devs have confirmed they’re still a thing so…

[fleet pollen]

More than you

[hollow garnet]

Believe what you want, doesn’t change the fact that they’re still a thing

[fleet pollen]

They aren't if someone states they did they probably started killing and missed a zone then found the zone with a respawn

[hushed marlin]

5 content creators don’t make up for hundreds of thousands of players

[fringe vine]

Yes, but with pop resets actual grinding would be pointless if the only way to spawn a GO is through the pop reset. I imagine your idea here is the same consept as in classic, where every session has new spawns. So the player has no way of affecting his chances of spawning a GO.

[fleet pollen]

You think they know nobody that's funny

[hollow garnet]

I don’t think it was said that GOs could only be acquired through initial spawns, just that it would give players a greater chance of just getting one without requiring the need to grind thousands of kills for one

[hushed marlin]

as much as i personally would love pop resets on every session there’s just way too many animals and the map is too big unlike classic

it’s only reasonable to do it will your in the process of making a game, not 6 years after

[fringe vine]

Isn't it inevitable if the population is reset every session? It wouldn't matter if you kill 100 whitetails or 5 whitetails in that session, the odds of finding a GO in the next session would be the same.

[fleet pollen]

Would almost be nil

[hollow garnet]

I wouldn’t want a pop reset every single session. Infrequent pop resets for only a handful of reserves at a time, like every 6 months or so is better imo

[pearl briar]

I like the concept of full pop resets with content release

It's not so frequent that zone discovery progress is nuked (i.e. every session) I can't give the game 8+ hours to suss out zones, and figure out where I want to hunt and set things up

[fringe vine]

This would be fine. I thought the suggestion was with every session. As with classic. My bad.

[pearl briar]

That'd be so frustrating

[fleet pollen]

Should give people who think pop resets are a good idea every 3-6 months pop resets every session

[pearl briar]

..what?

Gotcha

[glossy sun]

For the players looking to reset the game haz this bult in rite

[fleet pollen]

Not on console lol

[pearl briar]

Yeah but that's a total reset, not a population one

[fleet pollen]

On pc go to your maps and delete pop file your game will automatically make a new one

[hollow garnet]

Deleting population files is seen as very scummy

[glossy sun]

That's what some people are asking for from what I understand

[fringe vine]

I feel like the whole point of GOs is that not every one has them or can get them. Only those players who are willing to sacrifice a lot of time and energy. But thats just me.

[fleet pollen]

Well it would be scummy to make everyone do the same thing every 3-6 months

[agile cove]

Uh no? I would like because initial spawns are awesome

[pearl briar]

Except it's different.

[fleet pollen]

Lol it's the same thing

[hollow garnet]

I absolutely agree. But that doesn’t mean they should be inaccessible to the more casual players y’know? The suggestion I had was that one has a like 1/10,000 chance of just randomly spawning on your map every time you enter a singleplayer session even if you didn’t shoot any animals of that species. No pop resets, no grinding necessary, just gotta hope it happens. Doesn’t mean it can’t happen from respawns or grinding though, just that it’s possible without

[pearl briar]

If it became a mechanic to do a pop reset with content releases, re: new maps (which they sorta do for some animals already) then it wouldn't be the same as you cheating the system by self deleting populations in your game files

[hollow garnet]

Deleting pop files can be abused. Duo-annual pop resets can’t

[pearl briar]

If you need to make yourself feel more gooder by terming it the same, by all means - go off, chief. But realistically - one is acceptable and one is absolutely abusing the system

[fringe vine]

I think that this would either make no real difference OR it would make great ones too common. Not sure tho

[pearl briar]

The RNG gamble, personified 🤣

[hollow garnet]

I’d say it’s more the former. It’s still rare as all hell, just a bit more accessible for the non grinders. To balance it out I also would want a system in place that limits the number of GOs to one per species per reserve. So you can’t just stack them infinitely. You’d still have to go check all your zones to see if one spawned, you still have to find out yourself, just that little extra edge might help

[fleet pollen]

The go would be less likely to obtain

[glossy sun]

Well asking for pop every month seem like the same thing to me

[fringe vine]

Or maybe just the knowledge that there is this astronomically small chance of spawning it initially in is enough motivation

[gleaming jackal]

Some interesting points raised and highlights a clear division in the player base.
At least it’s a reasonably healthy discussion

[glossy sun]

Perhaps to relly mess with so called grinders just take way drink need zones

[pearl briar]

"New this season, we want EVERYTHING to be Chamois... Have fun!"

[gleaming jackal]

Animals could wreck their stands and tents… actually that would be pretty funny

[hollow garnet]

Beavers already do that enough 😭

[fleet pollen]

Worse than Chamois because he said no need zones

[hollow garnet]

The only way to truly prevent grinding is to do exactly what none of us want, which is to have a pop reset every time you enter a session

[glossy sun]

I think I wold just delete my game if that was case move on to some lame faming game or something

[hollow garnet]

Precisely. Grinding’s gonna stay in COTW for the rest of its existence, nothing we can do to prevent that without also fucking up the experience for every single player that plays this game

[pearl briar]

Literally says 'take away drink need zones'

[gleaming jackal]

Or maybe the focus should be what to do on new maps going forward.
If they do anything with the existing ones they run the risk of peeing off someone.
If new maps promote a different play style and makes grinding less effective then it’s a happy medium

[hollow garnet]

How do they do that without changing the core mechanics of the game? If they take away drink zones on a new map, people won’t wanna play it cuz they’re used to the mechanics of the old map

[fringe vine]

Actually, don't you get that 1/10000 chance every time you kill one animal?😅

[hollow garnet]

Whatever the GO spawn rate may be, yeah. There’s that 1/whatever chance of getting it. My suggestion states that that 1/10,000 chance can also happen whenever you spawn into a reserve, even if there are no respawns supposed to be happening

[fringe vine]

So would the chance of spawning a GO when starting a session be higher/lower/same than the 1/whatever chance of spawning it from one harvest? In your mind?

[hollow garnet]

It would have the same exact spawn rate as if it were a respawn from an animal you shot

[fringe vine]

Okay. So the difference would be almost non-existent.

[hollow garnet]

Yeah. All the suggestion does it allows GOs to have a chance to just appear on your map, however small that chance may be

[fringe vine]

The chance would be so low, that I would almost question the point of the whole idea 😅 if you could achieve the same result by just shooting one animal.

[hollow garnet]

I mean, you never know. If you’re grinding whitetail on Layton for ages and ages and get several GOs, then go check BB there might already be a GO waiting for you

[fringe vine]

Lets imagine a wheel of fortune. The wheel has a tiny sliver that reads "Great One". If I kill 40 whitetails in one session, I get to spin the wheel 40 times. With @hollow garnets idea, I would get 41 spins. The chance of winning would increase so little that it would be almost like it's not there.

[hollow garnet]

It’s just a thought lmao. Maybe not so great in hindsight but it’s still an improvement

[fringe vine]

I have nothing against the idea, I'm just saying that the change would be extremely small.

[hollow garnet]

It would be, but still something y’know? Lol

[fringe vine]

As it should be.

[fringe vine]

Of course. And even the idea of this kind of rng gambling might motivate people enough.

[glossy sun]

How about a no need zone mode for the crazy people

[vocal spruce]

None of us?!(I am in the minority and dont want it implemented in to the game)

[glossy sun]

How it works is the need zone dont show up and they are tied to them but they rotate fast so always roaming around

[vocal spruce]

But I think pop resetting is way to easy to abuse so I only reset in the case my game breaks(Has happened twice)

[hollow garnet]

Nobody in their right mind would enjoy a pop reset every time you enter a reserve

[vocal spruce]

Classic players disagree

I mean personally I dont like management I wanna go in having no clue what I might find.

[gleaming jackal]

Guess I’m mental too then

[hollow garnet]

The two games play very differently. For classic it works really well. With the way COTW is set up, it would not

[vocal spruce]

I mean ok but I disagree. fits my preferred playstyle perfectly

[cursive glade]

I don't like how my respawns work when all the zones aren't discovered whether I'm grinding or not. I've tried it both ways. When I'm missing 1 zone it's not to bad but I see a huge difference when I'm missing 2 zones. I have to shoot to many females if I don't have all my zones. So I personally don't like pop resets. I work and it takes a lot if time to discover all the zones. I get they have to have them occasionally

[sacred sapphire]

I prefer “random hunting”, walking from point to point and shoot things along the way. I generally avoid “Hunting by Spread Sheet”, and I don’t actively HM. I don’t have a problem with HM as this is how the game does provide Diamonds (you need to shoot animals to get new animals that might be Diamonds), so I passively do that. Now it's a problem as a byproduct of the whole grinding approach to get a Great One, but I see these as 2 issues: over-managed herds that produced Diamonds super-quickly, and the need to shoot 10,000 animals to get all those rare Pokémon Great Ones. I don’t have the time or the patience to do either one myself, and I accept that Great Ones are only for players with endless time, so I’ll never get one.

I used to be happy with the “you play your game that you bought the way you want to play it and I do it my way” approach. However, I have changed my view because, in fact, grinding HAS affected everyone’s game now because EW have changed the game significantly time and time again to suit this play style. How? A few examples. The recent change of the spook radius lead to howls of indignation from grinders (“I can’t shoot 10 deer at one time now”), so it was changed again to suit them. Then there was the change of Red Deer drink time on Te Awaroa to daytime, again to suit the grinders because the shooting gallery was too difficult at night, never mind those of us who like having the challenge of a night hunt. Then there were the changes to Mountain Lion drink times because it upset the grinders trying to get a black bear, etc., etc., etc. So no, I cannot play the game the way I want to, despite that once being possible, because changes were made to suit the Shooting Gallery approach. The loudest voices are listened to, and the rest of us are ignored.

Solutions can be found, I am sure, but this would involve compromise and I don’t see that happening. One way would be to do everything possible to make grinding pointless, or not worthwhile. This might mean making Great Ones far more common (1 out of 25 Diamonds, for example). Everyone would have a reasonable change of finding one without the need to shoot 10,000 Red Deer. But this would naturally lower their “value” as well. But since we already have people with 30+ Great Ones, I don’t honestly think this is really a problem.

Another solution would be to hide need zones from players’ view. If you want to find 80+ drink zones, you are going to have to mark that down on a map yourself because the game won’t do it for you, and you’ll have to work out when and where that is by observation. Sure, players who REALLY want to know will find cheats to do that, but at that point it is no longer taking advantage of an in-game exploit and moving into actively cheating. Upping the spook radius again would also discourage grinding since you have no reason to sit at a lake and shoot more than 2 animals if fast and lucky. Again, if these were implemented, I would balance it with making spawn rates slightly higher for Diamonds and Great Ones alike.

Another possibility might be to take the approach The Angler has used for its versions of Great Ones. There is only one per week on each reserve/fishery that has them, but everyone has the same change to get it if they can find it. One change I would make, however, is that its location on that reserve is absolutely random for each player. (In The Angler, the location is not random but that game forces players to use multiplayer servers.) This might have to be fed to players of The Hunter via APEX, however, so I don’t know how practical it would be.

[hollow garnet]

I actually kinda like the idea of being able to set your own markers, custom waypoints and whatnot. It could be useful for many things, such as only marking down zones you’re set up on in a grind, areas you frequent that you know have good herds, marking down a specific herd that you found a decent track/rare fur type in that you wanna visit later, etc
Just on its own that’s a really neat addition

[pearl briar]

Probably wouldn't be too hard to implement an in game mechanic that allows you to do this either

[sacred sapphire]

Essentially what I would like is there to be a shift from emphasis on getting a random number to happen (which encourages excessive grinding, devaluing Diamonds along the way) to actually hunting for, and eventually finding, a Great One as a late-game “Boss” that all players can realistically achieve if they play long enough. If Great Ones spawned at a greater rate (e.g., 1 out of 25 Diamonds, or whatever is reasonable, but certainly not 1 out of 10,000 kills), but appeared at a random location on the map, did not use need zones in a predicable way (or even be tied to any particular need zones), etc., it would encourage hunting and exploration instead. Everyone would have a realistic chance of getting one (or more even), but it would still be very challenging.

As someone suggested already, there might even be a mechanic where each map that can have a Great One does automatically, but only one; no others will spawn until that one is killed. Alternately, there might be a cumulative percentage chance that one will spawn depending on hours played since the last one. (With everyone starting out with one.) Yeah, I am certain that someone will leave their game on ALL the time, but maybe it is also tied to how many game restarts. Or maybe it is a greater percentage per actual days (not days played), so that after full year, yes, there will be a Great One 100%. Obviously there are all kinds of different ways to do this, but the point is to move from random numbers that are unattainable for the majority of players, to a super-difficult hunt that everyone can attempt and enjoy.

As for HM to get Diamonds and rares, honestly, if people want to do that, I don’t have an objection. This is how the game was designed, even if players didn’t realize it. I very much agree with Flinter’s analogy that this is similar to High Fence “hunting”, and if that this for you, do it; I don’t care.

[astral yew]

One thing I like about this idea is it would give treestands more of a purpose

[carmine lotus]

I'll try to keep this brief, but I'll throw in my two cents on the whole HM situation.

1. I think by FAR the biggest issue in regards to herd management lies with the RNG mechanics and the percentages that underlie it. It's effectiveness to the point where you can 10x or considerably more a player not actively using HM in terms of diamond level trophies is a really, really big issue. The two play styles border on so different that it may feel like you aren't even playing the same game as someone who is playing the opposing way.

2. Because HM is so effective, it makes it really easy to pump out diamonds. Some have already touched on content creators leaning heavily into and some of the effects of that, but I want to address what I think is the core issue that touches on. It creates two COMPLETELY different gameplay experiences, and by virtue of how extremely different they are, I think it's a safe bet to say the effects of the top end of herd management are well beyond what would ever be intended by the developers of the game. I would point to the spook distance change ( the big increase that ruffled a lot of feathers) a few months back as evidence to say the designers didn't intend for HM to be used to the extent and manner in which it is by many players now. Especially since the reason given for the change was to, and I am paraphrasing here but this is pretty close to verbatim, "bring the game more in line with the vision of the designers". That change seemed to be aimed at the grinding gameplay mechanics, where you could shoot multiple herds without spooking each other, but if I read between the lines....may well have been an attempt to reduce HM's effect a bit too. Since shooting more animals in less time will make HM get to it's maximum effectiveness, and for lack of a better term, the diamond printing phase faster. Why address it that way if that was part of the thought process? Because it's an HELL of a lot less time and effort than redoing the entirety of the spawning system for animals, for those who don't have coding experience, please understand we're talking exponential difference in time and workload.

3. Because the two playstyles are so different that it may as well be two different versions of the game....it creates by default a massive rift within the community. On the multiplayer side, a non HM player would be reluctant to host and open MP lobby, because having a couple HM players hunt your map for even a few hours would make an impact on the population that is noticeable. Likewise a HM player may not want to play with a non HM because it doesn't take much to bump it from being fully optimized. In and of itself I don't personally think that's very healthy for a game as niche as COTW is for being able to get new players introduced to the game by playing with friends who may play in different ways. But being that many of us play single player primarily, let me move on to the next point.

4. This divide even affects single player users who engage in the community, and the discussion in this thread and others on the topic is all the evidence you would ever need of that fact. Not to mention the vastly different gameplay experiences people will see depending on what content creators they follow for the game, or gameplay changes that suit one style or the other. And I think that stems from the effects of HM being so strong that it becomes a completely different experience. If hypothetically HM got you say, 2-3x as many diamond level trophies as a non HM player, I don't think we would have this issue. However, to do that, we're talking about completely redoing/tweaking the entire spawning system, for every animal, and that would take many months to do and test properly, if not a year. That said, I don't see another way that would address it in a way that could make the two sides of the debate able to be one whole with different approaches.

Just my two cents, and apologies for the long-windedness/ repetitions.

[sonic robin]

This thread has been so encouraging to read guys. Thanks for all the contributed! It took off way more than I could've imagined!

[fleet pollen]

The only people who agree with this don't realize that it means nobody will ever get go's

[agile cove]

Tell me what you think we're agreeing to

[fleet pollen]

Removing HM completely which without realizing it will increase go spawn retention to like 1 in 10 million at least

[agile cove]

Did you read the original post? He literally said he only wanted to start a conversation about HM and its place in the game. And as far as I know, HM doesn't even effect GO spawn rates

[fleet pollen]

Yes plus what he's said

I've read his responses to me as well and other statements saying not everyone should have a go

[agile cove]

Also, GO spawn rates are not nearly 1 in 10 million. What are you on?

[fleet pollen]

Not yet but if they remove hm it would inadvertently increase it to that

[pearl briar]

I think the only "effect" HM potentially has on GO location is:

• having a stable, harvestable population of sizable males (which we aren't even positive triggers the GO spawn to proc)

Removing HM does not mean you can literally never shoot another GO related specie, and therefore not get a GO

[agile cove]

For starters, that's just not true. Also where did the OP say not everyone should have a GO? I don't see anything about that

[pearl briar]

They spawn at random after killing a male of the species

[pearl briar]

OP never did, and never said folks didn't deserve them NOR said any of the other claims stated by them

If people want a diamond farm, who cares (my opinion)

That said.. it's not guaranteed that a diamond procs the GO. It could be literally any singular male that is harvested. That level one.

[fleet pollen]

Clearly you didn't pay attention

[agile cove]

Thanks for clarifying. @fleet pollen I'd really recommend actually reading what OP wrote in his letter because you clearly didn't, and I think you'd be a lot less angry

[pearl briar]

Has there been a visible trend towards getting a GO when you are on a heater? Maybe! But also perhaps it's only a notable thing once you have the grind down to a science and you start taking note of "hey I'm pulling bigger males more often, hey I'm suddenly seeing more coloration mutations. Wow this is neat!"

[pearl briar]

Can you at any point back up your frustrations with excerpts from OPs letter? Where you don't deserve your GO?

[fleet pollen]

He said it was good that I got only 1 go in 3 or 4 years with playing 14 hrs a day

[hollow garnet]

You must’ve been doing something wrong if it took you 14hr days for 3 years ☠️☠️☠️

[fleet pollen]

Yeah I wasn't using hm

[hollow garnet]

HM has no effect on GO spawn rate. I got my moose GO within 630 kills and whitetail GO within 300 kills. Both without any use of herd management whilst it took me 5770 kills to get my red deer GO with herd management
That should prove to you it’s completely random

[sonic robin]

i have not once said "not everyone should have a GO." You've just continued to assume thats what I mean.

[sonic robin]

no i didnt.

[hollow garnet]

@sonic robin honestly I’d say just ignore him. All he’s been doing is just creating chaos within this forum, tryna get people angry and starting arguments instead of actually discussing what the original point of this forum was

[pearl briar]

I've tried, they refuse to see reason at this point. Right click and block does wonders if you dont wanna see it any further

[sonic robin]

I can post the dm's if needed to prove i've said nothing of the sort. He doesn't bother me. What bothers me is it seems to be a blatant attempt to undermine the purpose of this thread. Everyone can state their opinion and be heard. But don't misrepresent or discredit anyone because you disagree.

[hollow garnet]

We believe you man

[fleet pollen]

Ok so it Wasn't good I got 1 go then

[sonic robin]

No congrats. GO's are hard to come by. I hope to get one some day as well.

[sonic robin]

I appreciate you. I'm also thankful that as a mod you read the letter and although we may not agree entirely you didn't just throw my opinion out the window. Good job!

[pearl briar]

I mean what's a discussion for, then? Haha.
I think there is validity to both sides. I don't have enough know how to mitigate them both and bring them to a better level overall - but I feel there is a solution

[crisp sun]

I wanted to bring the cheating/modding or whatever you wanna call it back up again cause I have an idea on how to combat it cause again I think we should take 2 birds with one stone.

Recently R6 introduced a anti cheat system on console to combat Xim and Mnk on console, by causing lag or input delay. My idea is that it was stated once before that modding messes with game files, well what if we had a detection system that can sense when something funky is going on within the files, and will cause the users game to become almost unplayable.

Now some might argue that modding is ok in some instances and I agree, but I think that mods should be checked or verified and put within a separate shop of some kind similar to what ark is introducing in there newer games.

I'm not a dev so maybe this is a near impossible task, but I wanted to throw out this as an idea because I really think cheating will become more of an issue sense its gonna be a more competitive environment in some ways if hm is reworked.

[hollow garnet]

Modding in this game extremely different than standard modding for other games. In say Minecraft or Ark, people are spending hours upon hours carefully creating content that can give people more to do with the game, such as adding new dimensions, new creatures, new weapons, new game mechanics, etc

Modding here is literally just speed hacks, animal spawning and other forms of hacking. I think we should try our best to differentiate the two by dropping the term modding and calling it what it is; hacking.

[crisp sun]

I wish was that way but most I have talked to said modding was a problem too but again finding a way to combat cheating it is still an idea

[pearl briar]

It absolutely would be an idea.. but I think it's been tossed back and forth several times, and adding an anticheat at this point is something that either can't be done with the age of the game engine or is something that the devs would need to basically rebuild the entire game from ground zero. I can't quote remember how it was explained.

And Oli is very correct. Modding is when you produce curated content that is released for everyone to benefit from (re: maps, or animals, reskinned things etc.)
CotW modding is using a hacking program to modify your: income, level, speed, animals [rares, spook radius, mass killing great ones etc].

[crisp sun]

Appreciate the respect, certainly a big change in any case whether get an anti cheat or not, I just hope if they decide to rework hm that it's looked over many times

[pearl briar]

Oh certainly. I personally think if and when CotW2.0 happens (because lets be real, all this content on updated engine? BIG chefs kiss imo) they should look into an anticheat type thing

[crisp sun]

I was just about to say someone should be writing this down for cotw 2😂😂

[inland cave]

Imagine we keep our trophies in Cotw 2.0

[pearl briar]

Just port forward all our current trophies

[inland cave]

Like csgo did with cs 2 skins

[hollow garnet]

Perhaps through our Apex connect account to we could port our trophies from COTW 1 to COTW 2

[pearl briar]

That'd be cool! (Wrong tab I'm dumb 🥲 )

[glossy sun]

Be nice if that port all the dlc s to

[hollow garnet]

Well, if we’re getting a second COTW game then likely we’ll be getting entirely new DLCs. Imagine we get new and updated animal models and our old trophies get updated along with them, + with updated TruRACS antler models. Perhaps there could even be legacy racks from the old game along with new racks

[inland cave]

That would truly be lovely and infact insane.

[pearl briar]

Here's to the future!

[olive marsh]

I dont think EW should adress this any further and make an extra stream for any talking about HM. Jaxy said everything important about it allready. Use it or dont. Its your decission. Honestly most ppl that complain about HM are just upset that they cant figure out how to make it properly work and dont get results like the Youtube guys. And who cares? Play like you want but why do we need to talk about playstyles and why should EW give any more statements about it? Also it takes months to set it up to get results. I personally dont have time for that but i dont care if others have because at the end of the Day the only trophys that matters for me are the ones in my own lodge. And i still can congratulate ppl to their 50 diamond red deer or their 20 whitetail go. They put time and effort into this so they should also get their rewards.

[vocal spruce]

Why do you care if they do make a statement about it? Also I have seen more people who want HM complain about it not working than those who don't want it.

[faint birch]

Well I dont want to get off topic too much but since we are talking about COTW 2 and and Updated engine .... We've seen the updated engine used in the Angler and while it has some nice visual's I'm not really seeing a huge leap in visuals over the current COTW engine. certainly not like what I have seen from say Unreal 5.

[pearl briar]

If they used unreal 5 though, would that be open licensed source? If yes that brings to the table a slew of issues beginning but not limited to people crafting their own deer etc - which we already know code doesn't handle modding (cheating) so.. perhaps... the engine used in The Angler is almost a limitation in a sense, closed source etc

To prevent the issue of having things modded in that weren't originally there

[faint birch]

agreed that would definitely be a downside of going with Unreal 5 .... A proliferation of Mods .... However the 2016 Avalanche engine is not without it's modding holes as well ..... We dont really know if Avalanche 2 has plugged any of those holes because as you said it's somewhat closed source.

The real exciting feature of Avalanche 2 is evidently it's ability to handle client server net code instead of the peer to peer of Avalanche 1.

Having a client sever model would make it more difficult for mods to be inserted or make it easier for the devs to track when a mod is being used

[pearl briar]

At the risk of completely derailing this topic - I think this would make a great subtopic for folks to discuss (but in it's own post to save the HM convo haha)

[faint birch]

agreed 👍

[charred zinc]

As someone who only has 17 diamonds & 16 rares, it doesn't really bother me that some players are using 'herd management' to get 'extreme' results (tons of super rares & GOs). I actually thinks it's neat because I get to see animals I'll never get myself.
These grinds take weeks if not months to set up; effort & time. Just because some people don't have the engery/time to put into this game isn't youtubers, etc. problem. Is it 'exploitation' yes, but cheating? definitely not.
It is up to the player to decide how they want to play. If I played like how these grinders do, I would get bored so fast.
I think a fix to this would be to somehow prevent diamond stacking and make spawning more random.

[sonic robin]

Its not about whether or not its cheating. No one is saying its cheating. It seems to be an unintentional exploitation of the games mechanics to create a result that isn't balanced. It has nothing to do with putting in effort or not wanting to put in effort. It has everything to do with whether or not HM as it is, is what is best for the game. If they can't change this game maybe it will be considered for the next one.

[faint birch]

Will certainly be interesting if Jaxy addresses the elephant in the room in todays stream ....

[charred zinc]

If they ever make another game, I hope it's more 'realistic'. No 'spawn at lake & shoot', I want camo/clothing that matters, tags, etc. like the old Dangerous Hunts/Adventure games.

[hollow garnet]

I wouldn’t mind if COTW 2 took aspects from both COTW and Classic. Would be nice to get the ultimate blend between accessibility and an immersive hunting experience

[glossy sun]

@faint birch there is no elephant in the game that's for sure

[hollow garnet]

Would be nice if they included a base game Africa map whenever they do go about making COTW 2

[glossy sun]

I think he got to really just to make sure where thay stand

[prisma socket]

Vurhonga should be base game, Africa 2 should be DLC

[sonic robin]

You'll have to let me know. I have meetings all day and can't watch.

[faint birch]

if they announced COTW 2 this year would you still hear the same complaint .... NO MORE NA MAPS !!!

[celest depot]

Forget about Cotw2, it might not happen for another 3 or 5 years since they are designing another game right now..
The problem is with Cotw and the lack of use of the entire game when the best trophy is hidden under only one way to obtain it

[faint birch]

what new game there they working on now? You mean The Angler ?

[celest depot]

They are hiring design, drawing, rendering, open world and marketing staff for an "unannounced project"

[faint birch]

👀 maybe that is COTW 2

[celest depot]

I think I read in one of the contracts that it is a "fantasy game" not a simulator: S
I'll look it up again, but it's more likely Primal 2

[faint birch]

well some COTW critics would say COTW is more fantasy than sim 😄

[celest depot]

This is the hiring of the EW Unannounced Project
https://avalanchestudios.com/jobs/dce37dfd-b34b-4ea2-8c11-784f2db1f5d8

The problem with a Cotw is that the number of current players does not support the creation of a sequel, if it were released it would kill the current game and the studio would not receive enough funding, the idea behind the creation of new games is to increase the mass of customers and revenue through new players and a new market.
I don't think a studio as big as Avalanche will do it, at least not for the next few years, it is more likely that they will release an Apex Engine next gen version of Classic

[faint birch]

But whatever it is .... if they are still hiring ... it's at least 2-3 years down the road

[celest depot]

That's right, just in at least 2 years we will see what the finished product will be :S

[faint birch]

They have been trending toward open world type deisgns ... The Angler has certainly gone in tat direction .... I question how a hunting game would work with that concept ....

[celest depot]

Certainly if it's EW it can only be from theHunter or Call of the Wild franchise, so we should expect it to be Primal2, Classic2 or maybe a Prehistoric: Cotw? XD
It would be great to hunt megafauna of the ice age and Pleistocene haha

[sacred sapphire]

I fear that theHunter: Primal 2 is Second Extinction, the mutant dinosaur game made by Expansive World's sister studio Systemic Reaction (they make all the sci fi stuff for Avalanche, such as Generation Zero). Second Extinction is free this week (until Thursday) on Epic Games

[hollow garnet]

Oh my fucking god if it’s theHunter Primal 2 I will scream from joy

[fringe vine]

If you like HM it's probably best for the game. If you don't like HM it's probably not best for the game.

[barren kraken]

You realize to do herd management you have to be lucky and get diamonds, right... Your issue shouldn't be with Herd Management, it should be with the rampant hacked trophies that devalue all trophies for everyone

[storm obsidian]

i would love to see theHunter Primal 2

[charred zinc]

although it is technically 'getting lucky by spawning a diamond' there is still a method people are using to 'exploit' the system, go watch a video about it they tell you how to do it.

[sonic robin]

HM exponentially increases diamonds.

[barren kraken]

Random question do either of you play pokemon at all?

[charred zinc]

I don't have a problem with HM to get diamonds, it's a problem when people 'stack' diamonds to get bigger & bigger trophies & GOs

[charred zinc]

yes lol

[barren kraken]

Pokemon has shinies that have been devalued over time, but in the face of that you have groups of people who stick to the highest difficulty hunting for those alternate colored pokemon in the face of easy methods. Both parties win, because the people who don't want that uncertainty have a viable way to spawn something, and the people who want the challenge can play the game full odds in a way that makes it challenging and rewarding. At this point Game Freak can't revert the odds or undo the methods, and in the same way, neither can EW change the methods. You guys lost here, it's just fact. This is something maybe to take into account for the next TheHunter game, but for COTW this is how the game is, at this point it just reeks of micromanaging how people play, especially in a game where 90% of content is single-player.

[sonic robin]

No one has lost. Its not about winning or losing. It isnt about removing HM entirely its about tweaking it to be better. If that can happen in this game great. If not I think this thread has proven that more people want a better, more intentional HM in the next game. It has accomplished exactly what I wrote it for, starting the conversation. Saying things like "you guys lost here, its a fact" just sounds dismissive and detracts from the point.

[barren kraken]

I think what I meant by that is that it should be a personal choice. What someone else does doesn't affect the vast majority of the game's playerbase. The people who engage in the discord, subreddit, and content creators are such a small fraction of the playerbase. I simply do not understand why anything needs to change when they are much more prevalent issues to legitamacy.

[hollow garnet]

It absolutely is personal opinion and choice at the end of the day. I’ve seen maybe one person complain they don’t get as many trophies as the people that HM do, but that’s a very specific and extreme example. The people in this thread are moreso concerned that people are taking advantage of an unintentional mechanic for their benefit, one that some choose not to exploit because it’s, again, unintentional. Not how EW designed the game to be played

On the other hand of the argument, you could go back to the Minecraft example. Did Mojang intend for people to exploit how their mobs spawn and farm hundreds of items and tons of XP in a short amount of time? Probably not. But players found a way to do it and because the game allows for that playstyle, whether intentional or not, it’s gonna stick around now

[coral birch]

I would largely agree with this, but its not what "someone else" does. Its what a lot of people do. It doesnt bother or affect me, I am against HM because if I did it, I wouldnt enjoy the game, and I want that side to be known for others so they know what they are getting into. There are plenty of examples of people who have experienced exactly that. But I do understand why people feel that the dozens if not hundreds of someone elses out there are affecting their game in some way. People say its not a competitive game... humans are by nature competitive 😄 Its really a complex topic for sure. But like Soup said, its shown a lot! There is a desire on both sides for a better game, and whether thats this one or in the future, at least its known that the current system is absolutely not ideal

[hollow garnet]

At the end of the day all I really care about is filling up my lodge with the trophies I want in it. And sometimes HM helps with that, it makes my life easier and I don’t have to spend as long as I would without it trying to acquire that specific trophy. I will never HM as intensely as I did with red deer, it’s ruined that species for me. But that’s my personal choice and it’s my personal opinion. What I don’t consider a trophy anymore someone else might consider it their dream trophy. It’s kinda hard to nail down whether it is unfair or not because, like mentioned before, anyone can do it. Anyone can choose to HM. I just hope COTW 2 comes up with a system that makes both parties happy

[coral birch]

I think thats where I'm at honestly. I'll continue to say my piece when people ask. But I am mostly in it for the good of future releases. I don't see current COTW changing, but at the very least maybe its discussed enough that developers make something more intentional and robust some day down the road in a future release

[hollow garnet]

Who knows. For now, let’s just enjoy the game how we choose to enjoy the game and simply wait to see what EW will do. Hope your hunts go well today Flinter :)

[coral birch]

I must say, they already have 😄 Got a pretty sweet Parque hunt vid coming out tomorrow!

[hollow garnet]

Ooh nice. I’ve been meaning to return back to Parque sometime soon, been on a Revontuli craze lately

[coral birch]

Funny enough thats where I need to get back to 😂 I feel like we are speeding towards a new map and I still am missing 3 revontuli diamonds, plus wigeon

Anyway, dont wanna take the thread off topic xD

[barren kraken]

so then maybe it's not an expansive worlds issue and more of as a community we need to better communicate that HM is efficient but not rewarding? which I agree with

[storm obsidian]

i was wondering what the EW Unreleased game look like sooner.

[coral birch]

I think thats how I view it more or less! I wouldnt even say its not rewarding. Like it does produce what people are after. But like Oli said, he did feel it ruined red deer for him. Thats all I want. If people know thats what they're getting into, then as far as I'm concerned, they should have at it! But there kind of was a time when if we discussed any of that, we were just kinda shouted down as jealous haters and stuff 😂 this thread has helped to dispel that

[sonic robin]

At the same time. EW could help the community by you know mentioning that? Or encouraging CC's to not just hype up HM and make it the thing to do.

[coral birch]

I think EW is in a tough spot with it as far as what to communicate to everyone, but I imagine theres a way of phrasing that

[barren kraken]

Fair enough. I think what really bothers me is the lack of transparency with how odds work in the game. One thing that has always bothered me about this community is its aversion to datamining or wanting to know specific numbers. Like in pokemon we have detailed stats and odds as to how each method affects chances, but here its flying in the dark. And beyond that, red deer are ruined for me and I haven't even herd managed. Im 4500 kills into the grind and have like 50 diamonds.

[hollow garnet]

In 21.1k kills I got about 393 diamonds plus maybe like 200 trolls lol

[sonic robin]

Mainly just acknowledgment that there are other ways to play

[barren kraken]

how many great ones in that?

[sonic robin]

you may have more diamond red deer than i have kills total.

[hollow garnet]

Only 4 sadly. HM has made me basically ignore any level 9 red deer I see these days. I’d only ever tax one if it scores over 270.6

See though, that’s just my choice. I chose to play like that and it has both benefited me and been a detriment to me

[agile cove]

I think I said it before but this is pretty much how I feel about it. I don't care if someone uses HM, but I don't like content creators using it, and making new players feel like they have to use it too and grind, when they should just be learning and playing the game. Grinding comes much later

[coral birch]

Honestly if I had to guess -- Herd Management obviously works. Maybe there is something to be gleaned and therefore exploited by learning such data. Btw, pokemon >>>

[barren kraken]

indeed, but imagine if instead of someone coming into your stream and saying "How do I get a great one" and instead of explaining herd management you could just be like "It's 1/4000, good luck dude!"

[sonic robin]

He doesnt explain HM.

[crisp sun]

I always just say it's like the minecraft nether it will ether spawn or it won't

[barren kraken]

my bad not a Flinter thing but other CC's (or even just some people in #🦌︴great-ones )

[sonic robin]

I take it EW did not say anything about this thread in today's stream?

[hollow garnet]

I personally chose to look into the spawn rates for rares and it’s had absolutely zero effect on the way I play or the way I think of rares in general. In fact, it’s made me appreciate them even more
I don’t see why EW is so secretive about it

[barren kraken]

Maybe I'll make a new thread about it, I get why they wouldn't share the date, but now that we have four different great ones and that's attracting new people to the game, I think its high time we know the odds.

[hollow garnet]

I wouldn’t mind that at all

[barren kraken]

One thing that's always confused me being someone who's not super ingrained into the community is that I was always under the impression that some people have looked into it and do know those numbers but don't share, is that a thing?

[agile cove]

Not allowed to share spawn rates in the server because it involves hacking into game files

[hollow garnet]

Nothing’s stopping you from finding out yourself. You’re just not allowed to share it in here

[barren kraken]

See that's where I have an issue with the whole cheating/hacking debate, because data is not exploiting spawn rates or anything.

[hollow garnet]

Yeah I don’t get it either. But hey, ill comply

[barren kraken]

Let's say hypothetically for the sake of argument with no legitamcy behind it all, hypothetically speaking do you know the odds of a great one spawning?

[hollow garnet]

I do yes. Hypothetically speaking that is

You gonna follow up or?

[celest depot]

It does not have them since the GO is not an animal, it is a Trurac atypical variant of antlers that when a diamond has it turns it into GO

It's the reason it's so hard to get, because a Diamond must appear first, preferably a max weight that has fewer trurac variants

[hollow garnet]

???
Are you saying that a GO can only spawn off a diamond or? Some clarification would be nice

[barren kraken]

I thought that was how it worked for a long time too

[inland cave]

Bro a GO can come from every kind of lvl, but it has to be a male

[barren kraken]

Without knowing anything concrete my first assumption was a diamond had a 1/100 chance of turning into a great one

[celest depot]

If you remember the Mr.Black GO bug you will see that the probability that a maximum weight Diamond brings a Trurac GO is higher

[inland cave]

a GOs spawn chance is 1/♾️

[celest depot]

To calculate the probability we must use Bayes' theorem, which calculates the probability of occurrence of an event after another has occurred xD

[inland cave]

it can come in 10 kills, 100 kills, 1000 kills, 10000 kills

U never know when it can appear

[celest depot]

That is correct because we do not know how many trurac variants a diamond can bring

nor do we know what probability of occurrence each type of trurac has

[agile cove]

I'm pretty sure that bug came around because Mr black was programmed to spawn as max level, and when black bear max level became 10, it glitched out

[celest depot]

But it didn't always appear as GO, sometimes it was just a maximum weight diamond, there are those who started a new game several times and got many GOs from mr.back but only half of the time

[hollow garnet]

I think the problem with Mr. Black was that he was set to spawn as the highest possible model or the second high possible medal, which in his case was a lvl 9 because it could either be diamond or it could troll. Once GO BBs were added, the two highest medals were great one and diamond

[barren kraken]

We must also remember that mr. black spawnd as a level 9 during the glitch. It was only like 20% odds that it would've been a g1

[coral birch]

Was Mr Black a max weight diamond when he wasn’t a GO?

[barren kraken]

No good data from during the glitch because once you shot him, the model was locked in and everybody went after the great one, not the diamond

[edgy patrol]

I saw Mr. Black during the GO glitch period as a diamond trophy with weight of just over 260kg and a trophy rating of 23.

[celest depot]

My mistake, I thought that was the maximum weight

[coral birch]

That’s what I thought, just interesting!

[fringe vine]

This is definitely not the case. I had my red deer great one at approx. 400 kills and shot 0 diamonds on that grind.

[celest depot]

that GO is the diamond, that's what I mean, it's a diamond with atypical antlers

[barren kraken]

It had a special fur type

[olive marsh]

A GO can spawn from every male, mine came from a lvl 6. It has nothing to do with HM. It is also not a diamond spawn, its a GO. If you do HM you can end up with hundreds of dimes before that GO spawns. Without HM you can end up with Zero dimes on your road to the GO. So it obviously is not necassary to spawn diamonds to get a GO. You just need patience and hundreds or even thousends of kills to get one. It is absolutely totally wrong to say you can only get a GO with HM. HM never had any effect on getting a GO.

[glossy sun]

Do u think a grate one female is possible tho

If wee just shoot females

[olive marsh]

Nope

It must be males.
Females spawn as females and males back as males. Thats for sure.

[celest depot]

a GO IS a Diamond wearing an Atypical Trurac antlers, Tk already said it once, that's what I mean...

[olive marsh]

A GO is not a diamond, it is a GO. The antlers of Great Ones are marked as atypical in the TruScore evaluation screen. Thats it. Also the Black bear has no truescore.

[olive marsh]

Also i would like to see that statement. If it was around the time when GO's got introduced to the game he probably just took the diamond (highest rating possible at the time) to make an example of what the new highest rating now possible is, a GO. Which probably is best described as like a diamond but with atypical antlers.

[celest depot]

If so the HM would spawn GOs all the time, but it doesn't depend on the spawn system, it depends on the trurac system, I can't go into this without breaking a rule so I won't say more

[faint birch]

I find it hard to believe that they would make GO spawn dependent on truracs when obviously they have GO's that are not in truracs ... ie black bears ....

GO could be spawned in a 2 step process both of which are unseen by the player .... first a diamond must be the spawn candidate as we know that a diamond can be spawned from any high level male. Secondly before the spawn transaction is complete a GO check is then made to determine if that now diamond candidate will become a GO .... If not it spawns as a diamond . This would account for the seeming connection between HM and GO spawn.

[fleet pollen]

An animal doesn't have to be male to spawn as a diamond case in point the gemsbuk

[faint birch]

This is true but not really an issue because as of yet there is no gemsbuk GO... Again my theory is just that .... it's a theory only and was only inserted as potential connection between diamond and GO spawn ..... I'm sure if gemsbuck GO were ever to be a thing they would have to code some exception

[celest depot]

When they fixed the GO Wt bug that appeared as a 4-Easy Tk said that there was only a small probability that a diamond would be GO, and later it was said several times that there was no exact spawn probability because it used the Trurac system.
Correct me if I'm wrong.

||But from what I understand, that was the system the hackers used to inject GO antlers into the diamonds.||

[olive marsh]

I dont know much about the whitetails or the bug you mentioned. But still black bear have no antlers.. also red deer, moose and bear have complete different models then the usual animal model. There is no context beetween diamonds and a GO spawn.

However the thing with whitetail is, they were the first GO and have no extra model. And as we all know, most things EW introduce for the first time wont work as they should and get fixed with several patches afterwards.

[celest depot]

I don't know if I can give details of this but Trurac is a probability system, what could be called an -If only if- that assigns a set of antler variables to each animal depending on its weight range, a 1-Trivial has a group of different antlers that it can carry and a 3-Very easy has another different group, that's why we don't see a giant Diamond Antlers in a 1-Trivial animal, all these antlers are Variable, only in the Wt is an antlers (before he brought a Legendary Piebard fur) and the -GO Model Trurac- is another of these Variables that includes a skin change.
Whether it has antlers or not is irrelevant since it is a variable is a skin.

That's all the information I've gathered so far on that system from all the sources I've found.

[coral birch]

At the risk of getting into things we aren't allowed to discuss... if thats all true, then HM must affect GO spawning too I would imagine? Based purely on the number of dice rolls you get by more diamonds spawning

[pearl briar]

I wouldn't go much further into it - this is broaching the dangerous waters. Discuss any of it outside the walls of the Server if you must
Please, and thank you

[hollow garnet]

I still confidently believe GOs are akin to rare spawns, just a preset chance of one being able to spawn. No other factors determining the spawn

[agile cove]

I really don't think that's how it works, if you take @hollow garnet for example, he only got 4 GOs in 21k HM kills, which is 1 per 5250. Those seem like pretty average numbers

[olive marsh]

I think the same.

[olive marsh]

If you do HM you get insanly amounts of dimes, if that had any influence on GO's than we would see a ton of GO's by HM players too. But it aint the case. I got mine with like 1k, maybe 1,2 k kills (red deer). HM players still need the same amount to get one. Its pure luck.

[coral birch]

I definitely agree, but that could be a part of the equation. Especially if TK actually said thats how it works. I definitely dont think its solely that tho or like you said, there would be more

[olive marsh]

I still would like to see that statement. I really think it was made in the early days when the whitetail GO was introduced to the game. And since then things definitly changed for GO's like extra models. It may be just an old statement for an outdated thing. But since i dont know anything about it, i could be wrong. But based on pure numbers by HM and non HM players, it must be pure luck.

[coral birch]

No thats fair, and I would like to see it too. Would be nice to know where it came from

[runic laurel]

As far as i know the only thing that was ever said by TK about great ones was in either the live stream they did showing off the great one whitetail or one of the ones shortly after. And what he said is "the great one is an elevated version of a diamond and that's why he scores gold if you mess him up" Tho I might be remembering incorrectly

[barren kraken]

This, but also now that we have predator great ones it feels reductive to limit this discussion to antlers or Truracs

[vocal spruce]

He definitely said something along those lines

[sonic robin]

Hey so uh...EW where you at on this?

[faint birch]

They see no problem with the exploit

[sonic robin]

Hmmm...bummer. Was hoping for some official dialogue...

[pearl briar]

Chances are it's something you could bring up in the next stream - asking if they had a chance to go through the entire thread and hope to get some responses to it

[sonic robin]

i always have staff meeting during ew streams

[pearl briar]

I thought you meant holding one in the stream

Then I thought twice

[slow haven]

I read a large part of this thread, but have to admit I skipped to the end to write this, since I had spent so much time reading already. I'm not really sure how much new information I'll add to this, but I at least would like to put my opinion out there. I've played for about 5 years now, with most of my time played on the early maps.

Trophy value means a lot to me. When Silver Ridge Peaks came out, that was the first time I became extremely disappointed and lost motivation to play the game. I had spent hundreds of hours in the game with my handful of diamonds, and every diamond and rare was thrilling. On SRP, the animal population was so high, I picked up 3+ diamonds and 4-6 rares in 5 hours. I felt like none of the progress I had made previously mattered anymore when I could just go to SRP and grind out diamonds and rares every hour. My main lodge would just wind up being an SRP lodge with all the high scores that no longer felt rewarding.

Eventually I came back and just decided to shun SRP and take all those trophies out of my lodge and return to play the game the way I did initially. Later, I decided to adopt the perspective that I would perceive trophies as relative to their reserve. And apportioned equal amounts of my lodge to various species. That way low-effort trophies wouldn't dominate the entire lodge.

Now to HM. I don't know the details of how to engage in HM, thankfully. But it bothers me that I have to stay purposely ignorant about a mechanic to enjoy playing the game. I enjoy analyzing and learning every aspect of a game and achieving mastery within it. I can't do that here or I ruin my own experience. I have seen the ridiculous amount of diamonds, rares, and super rares some people rack up, and it looks like an insanely boring process. I'd never want to do that.

Some have said this isn't a competitive game, like CoD. I agree, to an extent. But I still enjoy watching other people play, and I enjoy looking through other people's lodges. When I see how many incredible trophies they have, it makes my lodge look vastly inferior and a waste of my time. To avoid that, I hardly watch videos anymore and I don't view other people's lodges. It's very disappointing to have to isolate myself from community and from learning about game mechanics to preserve a fun and rewarding experience.

Another aspect I'd like to mention, is that while yes, we can all play our own way, some of us enjoy and usually pursue efficiency (think Satisfactory). In this game, efficiency seems almost mindless to me. Nothing like hunting, more like an arcade game. So while I've settled for playing differently, it still does bother me in the back of my mind when I get a diamond, that I could have dozens of these in the same amount of time if I was doing it "better".

I've heavily adapted to the way the game has changed over the years, and as people have learned the inner workings of the game. I've put a lot of work into my own spreadsheets and trophy allocations and other things to essentially create my own mechanics to have a rewarding experience. And I enjoy it quite a bit. But I wish I hadn't needed to do all that in the first place.

I don't know that I have any suggestions for solutions, unfortunately. This is mostly just voicing my experience over the years to put my opinion out there. I recognize that quite a few people do enjoy the HM style of gameplay, and I'm not sure I'd see a way to reconcile it very well without having two different games.

[sonic robin]

Every voice needs to be heard! thanks for sharing!

[sonic robin]

@modest forge

[modest forge]

Holy hell 728 comments

[sonic robin]

https://tenor.com/view/bane-fire-rises-mask-lets-go-gif-16521964

[hot hare]

Bump

[sonic robin]

So I've heard some murmurings from the stream. I will watch it soon...

[sonic robin]

So has EW just resigned to HM as not an exploit and a part of the game that we have to deal with now? No dialogue between the differing opinions? Am I misunderstanding something?

[hushed marlin]

classic EW moment

[sonic robin]

Does anyone have answers? Or is the conversation over...this started as a letter that morphed into a great conversation with both sides trying to find a solution. Is that just done? Get on board with HM being a thing or get over it?

[fossil salmon]

What's HM?

[sonic robin]

It stands for Herd Managment, which is a guess now a "tactic" but previously it was considered by some (myself included) as an exploit of the games mechanics to increase trophy spawns

[fossil salmon]

Oh I didn't realize you ment herd management, I know what that is I just didn't know what the abbreviation was for

[cursive glade]

They did change the HM in this last update. I play regular and HM sometimes. Diamonds are way harder to get and the single zones don't change to level 2 as quickly. You definitely got to put in the work if you are going to do it now. So by doing this Diamonds are more rare now. My Diamond count has droped by double or more since this last update. So they kinda addressed I guess.

[sonic robin]

yeah...but for those that miss out because they don't want to use it still are just in the same boat.

[cursive glade]

Honestly on the map's I wasn't doing HM it seemed like my Diamonds spawned faster not using HM in my opinion. When I was doing HM and trying to stack Diamonds to get level 2s to spawn it was like the Diamonds took way longer to spawn. That's just how it feels on my respawns. Almost like I was being penalized for stacking trying to get 2s. I could be wrong and just have some bad RNG but it definitely feels that way.

[hushed marlin]

i think it’s bad RNG considered what i’ve seen with other players

[celest depot]

In short, EW has accepted that they use it and that it is not an abuse of mechanics, and reaffirmed that they will not intervene, that "everyone is free to play the way they want", Dot ..

However this still doesn't resolve the issue for those who don't agree with the mechanics and don't want to use it, so the fastest way to get a GO is still hidden behind that method and there are no details on whether there will be another way to get it than except for the divine miracle of a random spawn...

Let's hope there is more interest in presenting other mechanics for obtaining them, either by Season Passes, Events, accumulation of points by Hunt Club or by Genetics Points as proposed in this thread https://discord.com/channels/393040947006406657/1096112572517851307

[sonic robin]

Lets hope...after what was said in today's stream is there really any hope?

[hushed marlin]

that’s why we need a classic 2.0

[celest depot]

I don't think he has mentioned anything about another method, I'll look at it again just in case...
This thread showed a lot of different opinions and possibilities so I hope EW took note of some.

[sonic robin]

No public recognition as of yet

[blazing swift]

I don’t have a problem with herd management, if that’s how some people want to play the game that’s fine with me but personally I prefer not to as I find grinding incredibly boring.
My one single problem I have with this play style however is how I believe it has affected the quality of map design by the devs. I feel like CotWs earliest maps such as Layton, Hircshfelden and Medved had a lot of love and care put into creating the most immersive experience possible. And it really shows, some of these maps feel like places I could truely go and hunt IRL. But as the popularity of grinding has risen they seem to have started to design maps with grinding gameplay in mind with realism and immersion taking the back seat.

Not saying the newer maps are bad at all, but when you watch a YouTuber rating their favourite maps it’s usually less about how immersive it appears or the specific species they enjoy hunting the most. Their top maps are rated on whether they have a Great One and how easy the map is to grind.

[snow blade]

I’ll do grinding every now and then but hunter dd33 is my all time favorite cotw YouTuber

[hushed marlin]

exactly how i feel about how they are sculpting maps around grinding

i mean the old maps have artifacts, sheds, castles, multiple characters, history to them, etc

[woven haven]

I had never heard of this topic, so I have not read much about it yet.
I recently posted a video on fan-art called "Another Call of the Wild," which tells the story of an adventure rider who travels around the world and meets animals after a hard day's work, but this video consists of scenery and animals, with no hunting scenes.
COTW also offers beautiful landscapes, a large variety of animals, and inspiring stories, and now that GO grinding is the mainstream, we need to know about these other attractions.

[pearl briar]

The down side to this, is Great Ones are considered prestigious - so of course circulating around them is gonna be high value in viewers. It's a rough side effect to the hunting scheme, as it turns out.
I absolutely would love it if CC's would like, once a week, go to a map and focus on something unique about it - or hunt something that isn't the "norm". Like make a rare in Gators or something fun like that.

[runic laurel]

I actually do quite a bit of challenge videos & themed hunts along side the grind trophies to make sure theres something for everyone. I try and keep grinding to livestreams and only post videos on it when i get something notable, as i know its not everyone's cup of tea. the game has so many different ways to hunt that i love

[fossil salmon]

And I really appreciate that! I like having the best of both worlds

[runic laurel]

The game has so much to offer and you miss out if you only do one thing, gotta do it all xD

[left geode]

especially doesn't help when they're so full of steroids and drugs that you can't even eat them lol

[stuck drum]

I agree, from the landscapes to the rares, diamonds, and great ones, there is so much to enjoy. And if you are bored, you can do the missions this great game has to offer.

[pearl briar]

I meant, I think to clarify, I would love a live stream of such a thing.
Granted, I know livestreams are a good part of the bread and butter for viewership - and not everyone wants to just dawdle through the woods or wherever. 😂

I'm well aware my stance might be pretty much a "me" thing haha

[coral birch]

I was so confused because I thought you meant diamonds or something 😂

[pearl briar]

The other down side, is that for me, my view time is opposite a lot of the streamers I would wanna watch live haha

[left geode]

God damn drugged out diamonds.

[coral birch]

I need to use the term dawdle more for my style of hunting lol

[pearl briar]

its a good word

[runic laurel]

Ah gotcha, i have been doing a few australia streams recently but yea most my streams are focused on the grind as doing it live is the best way to prevent cheating accusations. Every time i get one off stream i get twice as many cheating accusations lol

[left geode]

I think there are underlying spawn RNG mechanics people haven't found or discussed, in my experience playing, honestly.

[pearl briar]

Honestly, I get it. I really do 😂 Easier to just "Look you were here with me, obviously I didnt spawn in the ultimate mega rare thing."

[runic laurel]

Exactly haha

Anddd then we get 11 hour streams where i cant speak normal by the end because of it 😂

[left geode]

I have about 280 hours so far, I think lvl 45, and base spawns of creatures on maps I've never been on, and never pursued are much higher than when I was say level 10. I started going after red deer for the first time and all of my initial spawns have been pretty big. When I first started playing all I got were really small deer of every kind

[pearl briar]

https://tenor.com/view/amon-pour-stiff-drink-gif-22608751

[left geode]

I feel like there's an underlying increased RNG of better spawns after you become higher level the more kills you have under your belt. Has anyone else noticed this? Even my Gator spawns were pretty nuts the first time pursuing them around lvl38

[runic laurel]

I personally think it just feels like that because you have learned more about the game as you level up

[celest depot]

Actually the more terrain you cover the more spawn zones are activated, animals usually don't even spawn in areas where the map is not revealed, sometimes you will see a clear lake but if 1km around it is dark, nothing will drink there until whether you reveal it or go through it at least once

Before the Keen Eye skill was used to activate them but now they seem to work independently of the need zones

[sonic robin]

not sure I agree totally with the fact that they are sculpting maps around grinding however I do see your point that they dont make em like they used to

[runic laurel]

I would argue the recent maps are geared more towards a playstyle of just running around and hunting. Thats what i do every time i hop on Australia & New England is just bad for grinding overall.

[sonic robin]

They still dont make them like they used to. I like the new maps, but there was way more included with the first maps

[hollow garnet]

That’s just not true but okay

Need zones don’t get “activated.” They exist and get used by animals regardless of whether you’ve been there or not. Finding them just marks them on your map

[celest depot]

I am not referring to the zones, after the update of home range in Revontuli, many of us noticed that the first time a lake was revealed, it was empty regardless of whether it was an animal's drinking time, and it remained empty until the zones around him cleared up..
The same thing happened if the Keen Eye skill was used, although the need zone was shown on the map, no animal used it, only until the surrounding areas were explored, someone came to use it.

It was as if there were no animals in Vurhonga and Cuatro Colinas after that update, there were a lot of complaints and quite a big discussion in the Spanish-speaking group about it and whether or not it was a bug

[solemn dragon]

Unpopular opinion but I wish they never introduced GOs. They've skewed the game so far from any resemblance of hunting.

[stuck drum]

I wished GOs didn't exist as well but EW would need to find an alternative that's similar

[hushed marlin]

i thought it was a cool concept but the community has pretty much adapted that the "fast travel, shoot, claim, ft again x 100" as the only reasonable way to get a GO

[pearl briar]

A chunk of them have, yes

Personally I still like the chill edition of trundling through the woods

[echo jasper]

I wonder if anyone has mentioned genetic freak Whitetail that people grow on farms and sell to trophy hunters. that is essentially the target audience of Herd Management

[stuck drum]

All the creators play a new map for a week and then just grind forever

[hushed marlin]

like of course you will not get a great one as fast as someone who is trying to grind them specifically, but if you want to hunt "normally," it can be pretty unattainable

[hushed marlin]

i dont even have any intense setups, i just put tents down in spots that are far from outposts and near spots i like

[pearl briar]

^pretty much how I go with it

[echo jasper]

Exhibit A, these deer are essentially the product of forced herd management, this is not a trophy animal, this is the french bulldog of whitetail hunting

[pearl briar]

thats just gotta be so heavy :C

lookit his lil chicken neck

[echo jasper]

There is still a very large demand for trophies such as these in the community, but if you hunted public land for 15 years, you'd never see 2 of these kinds of whitetail deer

[pearl briar]

We had one that my grandad saw.. when he was in his 50s.

Didnt have all the crazy tines, but had a couple of drops.

We assumed he must have been injured at some point

[hushed marlin]

i been playing the game alot recently, and within those hours i havent been drink zone mashing heavily. Im confident that i would have a GO or close by now if i setup tents and tripods everywhere by lakes and rivers, but i cant find any enjoyment in that

[echo jasper]

Honestly, it is so important that the community understands that the game cannot emmulate real life, most of the people here dont understand how unbelievably rare real life "Great Ones" are, if the odds of finding an animal that large on public land was perfectly emulated into COTW, I promise only content creators or people who are constantly playing 15 hours a day will find one, and only one every so often since of course, there is a 4 month hunting period where the animals actually have their horns and are not in velvelt lmao. Hunting IRL is so complicated and very difficult unless done on a trophy animal hunting ranch

[snow blade]

Would’ve preferred something similar to red dead redemption’s legendary animals

[hushed marlin]

The WT GO when they originally came out was something that seeemed to be so rare and actually "great" that people would just hope to be lucky to get one while whitetail hunting constantly. Now, it seems that everyone is too focused on trying to collect them all through heavy grinding

there's nothing wrong with wanting all the GOs, but its somewhat ridiculous that someone like me who has a ton of time to play game would be lucky to see one in 6 months (without heavy tent + tripod grinding)

[echo jasper]

Another question is, if the developers did away with the patternized respawning system and it was sheer randomness, wouldnt "grinding" still be the best way to get the most encounters with a GO. Take shiny hunting in Pokemon for example, in those games you can chain encounters together (find the same monster over and over) to increase your odds of finding the special one. To compare that to COTW, you shoot two males in the same herd over and over to increase the odds they turn into a GO, this is the way it is for a reason, however in the games where the chaining method didnt exist, players would aimlessly walk around grassy patches, hoping to god they found one. The result of this was a less enjoyable and skill based hunt, yielding the chance to never find one (realism) rather than a near guaranteed way of attaining one (chaining). So as long as people are ok with it being a dice roll that they never find a GO, thats just how the game would have to work without Herd Management.

[hollow garnet]

Grinding will always exist in this game to some capacity. Unless they decide to randomize the spawns completely, herd management will also exist. The only way to 100% eliminate both would be to have completely random spawns every single time you hop onto a map. At first some would think that’s awesome but don’t think about people who have population scanners who will just keep exiting to main menu till a great one spawns.
“Oh but just remove initial spawn GOs. Problem solved.” Nope. Then they just become unattainable because you don’t get respawns, you only have the initial population to work with.

What we have now is, in my opinion, the best possible respawning system that we could get. It’s entirely possible to find GOs without grinding, my friend got one in less than 10 kills. Another person just kept hunting their maps until it spawned, no grind setup present on their map at all. If you don’t want to put in the same time and dedication that grinders do you can’t be upset that you aren’t getting the same rewards (or trophies in this case) that they are

[echo jasper]

Yeah time and effort is the main determinant on who gets it and who does, sure people with sub 100 hours can find a GO but if you make it so ANYONE and everyone can then that probably devalues the trophies more than people who toss 100 hours into a grind

[hollow garnet]

Then there’s the people who complain about not having time to grind cuz they can only be on like 1-2 hours a day. Hell, you can get more accomplished in 2 hours of grinding than you can in 4 hours of just regular hunting. If you choose to dedicate the time that you do have towards grinding then you’ll be far more likely to obtain such trophies

[hushed marlin]

more like 1 hour of grinding

[echo jasper]

Yeah but the feeling of accomplishment comes from hard work and dedication, so the good of the game is not to give instant gratification, it’s to balance emulation that challenges the user by being realistic with actual possibility of achievement, aka getting a GO

So the people who can only put 1-2 hours in a day are going to feel more gratified when they finally find a GO than they would if it was so easy all it took was 1-2 hours. If you walk into a treasure hunt and the fucking X marks the spot is at your feet within 15 minutes, you won’t actually feel good about it, sure you got lucky once but if it happens every time there’s no point

[left geode]

It's not "forced herd management" through culling. What it is is steroids and an extremely high-protein diet. A rack isn't really determined by the father but the health of the mother overall and during gestation. The generational health of the father and all his fathers/mothers before him has a factor, but again not as much as whether the doe was healthy or not.

[echo jasper]

Are they letting poor genetics breed with the does?

[left geode]

No. That's not what it is. It is the diet of the buck and what his mother is fed. The genetics of the father aren't really much of a factor in terms of antler growth.

So as I said, they don't do "herd management" and grow the antlers through culling lower-score bucks and preventing them from breeding or something, they manage the appearance of their bucks through steroids and high-protein diets.

[echo jasper]

So selling sperm from a breeder buck is useless and I can take a buck that consistently grows spikes and impregnate a doe with its sperm and give the doe steroids and it will be like the photo

Also regardless of how much of an impact their bucks have on their offspring, they’re in high fence ranches, I promise that has more influence than herd management lmao, so there’s no point to differentiate the two methods when they both result in abnormally large animals, in the game you’re manipulating your deer population to have bigger antlers, in breeding bucks you’re “giving them steroids” which is obviously what it is but they’re still not letting the bucks and their offspring that turn into does on a free range ranch for obvious financial reasons

[hushed marlin]

the main problem i have with it in this game is that you have to stack or cull big animals to force the game into spawning small animals, which fucks up the trophy average and forces huge animals to spawn

[hollow garnet]

Hate the whole “stacking creates more diamonds” misconception. It’s clear to me that everyone who uses that term just doesn’t know how to herd manage at all and therefore doesn’t know what they’re talking about

[modest forge]

This game never intended to use any Herd Management methods. Someone found out how to manipulate the spawning of big males by leaving lower end males on their map, which is cool af, but it was never meant to be an actual mechanic for players to utilize. If it was, it would have been explained from the start by the devs or community managers. They can’t do anything to prevent this method without effecting other people who play without it. Whether you do or not, there is no denying that it’s taking advantage of a game mechanic in a way that wasn’t supposed to be. I refuse to use it because of this and I am not gonna argue with anyone who feels otherwise, but at the end of the day I doubt it’s going away. The devs can’t say it’s an exploit without creating issues within the community and have a responsibility of fixing said exploit, but as said before they can’t really do that without changing some aspects of the game for everyone and that’s just not fair. Way of the Hunter established their Herd Management methods from the start, explaining to players how to play the game correctly using it. That to me is how it’s supposed to be done so I chuckle to myself when HM is brought up as a legit thing in this game because it’s not. I’m not trying to start anything though, these are just my opinions. HM is not going anywhere and it’s 100% better than using cheats. At least HM trophies are genuine

[sonic robin]

Best kind of hunting is trundling through the woods

[coral birch]

I've more or less decided to stop engaging in any convo regarding HM or HM-related tactics (stacking) but I am curious as to what you mean here. Thats the entire point, is it not? Stack diamonds to reverse engineer herd management into spawning a lot of low levels, then leave those low levels alive, kill all the stacked diamonds, and the game now has so many low level animals to deal with, that it ends up spawning more diamonds. Thats what I was told

Lol this is one of the problems with this debate. Tone cant be inferred through text. I re-read my own message and it sounds like I want to start things 😭 I just wanna know if thats actually not the point

[celest depot]

This is how it works, so the more diamonds appear, the more chance there is that one of those diamonds will bring GO antlers

[pearl briar]

Flintorrrr. Put the boxing gloves DOWN fam, he's dead.. He can't get any MORE dead 😭

[coral birch]

https://tenor.com/view/hasbulla-hasbik-cute-meme-influencer-gif-21732737

[pearl briar]

I love that kid lmao

[coral birch]

He's the best 😂 Barstool Sports did an interview with him one time on their Sundae Special series. Now I need to watch it again

[sonic robin]

Is that really why people do that? Does it actually work? Can anyone who has done it confirm it? I just thought people stacked diamonds because they wanted to post a codex pic with it full of diamonds...

[coral birch]

I have no idea. Thats just what I was told by someone who definitely does it with great success

[sonic robin]

Oh well. If thats the case it makes way more sense than what I was told. It would be good to confirm that though, or at least confirm that is in fact theoretically how it works. I guess I'll just have to stick to dawdling through the woods.

[coral birch]

Dawdling >>

[pearl briar]

Trundling along, one might say..

[sonic robin]

Its hard to trundle up mountains. Ive never understood the ability for the character to sprint without stopping. Like absolute legend lung capacity, but put a decent incline in their path and newwpppp

[pearl briar]

Trundling is moving slowly and heavily.. So basically squat walking

[sonic robin]

I trundle...not by choice though...the gym is helping

[woven haven]

One of the confusions caused by GO is that it is only present in a small percentage of animals. This created extreme scarcity and disparity among animals. If it had simply been implemented for all animals as a class above diamonds, there would not be as much confusion as there is now.

[pearl briar]

I think as an answer to that, there should also be a chance for a nontypical of other (antlered) species to appear. (not sure how you'd implement it in non antlered without trudging into GO territory, yknow?)

but like.. We already have these PHAT racks, fur types and just in general monsterous GO animals.. so why not give another chance, albeit with slightly less RNG factor to spawn in (via TruRac) like a whitetail with a couple droptines

Or make better chances for mixed racks, or wonkies with greater disparity

I feel like we constantly see deer with mixed racks and that's cool.. but like, mixed rack with a droptine would be fun.

I also think we see lots of repeated types of the mix racks, like its always a half and half of something or other, and once in a while its a WT with the crown rack, but its angled inwards or outwards

and all this could simply be because we have such hardcore grinders, that we actually are flooded with the images, so everything seems common when in reality... an average, pokey, dawdling, trundling hunter might not see as much range in their herds

[sonic robin]

https://discord.com/channels/393040947006406657/1123981975968043091

[left geode]

Of course I know they're high fence, what I am talking about is completely unrelated to the game, I just wanted to get information out about deer genetics.