Ballistics Rework

[carmine crown]

There’s been so much talk about balancing weapons by the devs but I believe there is something that could not only help balance out all weapons but also make some of the weaker guns like the .223, 6.5, etc more viable.

The ballistics rework would introduce a new stat to each round; stopping power (energy). This stat would indicate just how much energy the round carries. The higher it is, the more it staggers an animal upon impact. Now, this might not exactly be the most realistic way to go about it, but having the weaker rifles such as 6.5 and .223 have higher stopping power compared to the more powerful rifles like the .308 and .243 means that if you land a good shot, the animal would stay still for just a bit longer, allowing for the potential to land a follow up shot to make the animal bleed out faster. It could also help balance out the more powerful rifles, where an animal will flee almost immediately after being shot.

Along with this would be general rebalancing of different weapons, like making the .223 just generally more powerful and making the 6.5 a class 3-7 rifle. I feel this would make a lot of people happy.

[woeful ridge]

I really have to agree with a complete weapon rework. There’s so many things that make absolutely no sense realistically and for game play. .308 being more powerful than 7mm magnum and .30-06 is the biggest gripe I have right now.

[candid vale]

On that part the stats more need to be adjusted actually testing it the 308 is definitely not as powerful as the 7mm and 30-06 just the stats show that it is but they very wrong the same thing goes with the 7.62x54r it's a lot more powerful then the stats say especially in the penetration category

[prime relic]

We 100% need a weapon system overhaul/rebalance to actually be balanced. even some of the classes that animals are in don't make sense, like collard peccary class 4 but yet feral goats, chamois and axis deer are class 3. Also coyotes being class 2 yet bobcats are class 3 and of course grizzly/brown bear being class 7 when they should be class 8

[candid vale]

Yeah lots of classes needs major major rework

And with some some animals need to share more then one class

[prime relic]

Would love coyotes being like classes 2 to 4 because irl they are pest and most people just use whatever they have on them

[carmine crown]

Turkeys should be able to go to class 2 honestly

[candid vale]

Like racoons and turkey should be class 1-2 feral goats axis pronghorn javelina sika should be classes 3-4

Like you can almost throw a rock at a pronghorn and itll die but he can throw the Titanic at a feral goat and they'll just look at you

[prime relic]

Just alot more freedom would be nice because really all the harvest check does for proper ammo is restrict us from using certain weapons on diamonds, I have no issues just using 300 on everything that's not diamond or rare

[candid vale]

Honestly instead of classes they're more needs to be either weight ranges or species together

[prime relic]

Distance also plays a factor of how much energy goes into the animal irl

[candid vale]

The game could also severely benefit from having different size bullets for each rifle like 223 could have classes 2-3 45gr bullets and classes 3-4 70gr bullets

The same thing could also be worked over for arrows as well on the ballistic

[bleak flicker]

Some random chat came up last night and made me wonder this, What if we had 3 ammo types per cartridge. Light rounds for thin skinned game 2-4, medium for big game 4-6, or heavy for 6-8. They don't need to be two sets like bleed/pen. Just a third middle ground bullet balanced between pen and bleed. A spire point or round nose rather than a poly tip or hollow point

[bleak flicker]

I'd love to see the .270 changed to 3-7, make it as punchy as the Solohkin so base game players have a reliable rifle.

[edgy pond]

I'm not sure I agree that the .223 should have more stopping power than a .308, seems like a convoluted way to fix the problem. Can't they just buff the .223 pen instead?

However, I do like the concept of including the kinetic energy, which the game supposedly simulates already. Perks like Pumping Iron mention velocity and muzzle energy for weapons.
I also find that beyond the effective range, a weapons pen/exp decreases per distance, which may be a function of bullet velocity (i.e. kinetic energy by extension).

I know people hate me for comparing with WOTH, god knows WOTH is a totally different game, but it's relevant in this case that the ethical consideration in WOTH's harvest check is driven by the kinetic energy of the projectile at the relevant distance (not at muzzle like in COTW).
In other words, a bullet bleeds off energy due to aerodynamic drag and has considerably less energy at 500m than at muzzle, allowing a high-caliber rifle to kill a mid-tier animal ethically.

Since COTW does zero attempts at modeling this, you could potentially stealth-buff the .223 by giving it a higher muzzle energy and a better drag coefficient. That would allow it to maintain its (already low) pen/exp performance at much longer distances without penalty.

However, if EW were to go this route, it would alter the actual trajectory of the bullet. It would be a flatter (better) trajectory, but the so called zeroing perk would be bugged for all the people who depend on that to be precise. (And I think its fair to assume EW would not pick up on that until at least a couple of updates later).

[raw knot]

You do know that WotH uses the Unrel Engine, right? a shoter engine made for, among other things, to be able to simulate real ballistics with all its physical conditions.
And CotW uses the Apex engine made to model terrain, there is no comparison or possibility to recreate the same thing, no game that uses Apex has it, who should develop this technology is Avalanche who controls the engine and if they don't do it for their AAA games they don't there is no way to do it for CotW, no way for Expansive Worlds to design it by itself

[edgy pond]

This game literally already reduces the performance over distance bro. lol I knew I'd get called out for bringing up WOTH 😅

[carmine crown]

The idea was that the .223 would have more relative stopping power for its class range than the .308. For the animals it’s ethical on minus maybe the class 4s, not that it could stagger a moose better than the .308 could

[bleak flicker]

The reason this game disappoints so many people is their mindset, they come into the game comparing it to other fps games where they play as snipers and shoot long distances regularly. Hunting is meant to be a close range thing and nobody realizes this is not that kind of game

[edgy pond]

So basically you want the .223 to have more stagger on a sika deer than a .300 has on a moose?

[carmine crown]

Something like that I suppose. The thought process was “hey, make this gun better for its class range than other guns of its class to make it more viable”

[bleak flicker]

Better penetration makes more sense than a stagger mechanic and it would be far easier to implement

[edgy pond]

Well, I can agree to the principle, but I still think they can just plain buff the .223 instead, to bring it to the level of the .22H at least.

[carmine crown]

I suppose. Just brainstorming ways to make less powerful rifles more viable. At least we can agree the .223 needs a buff

[edgy pond]

Yes absolutely. And I've also made several other suggestions and alternative ways to 'stealth buff' the .223 in case the developers are reluctant to full buff it for power creep reasons.
See Lyra's topic about .223 and 6.5mm buff 🙂

[bleak flicker]

It doesn't need to be a cannon, just be reliable on class 3 and get at least one lung on class 4, if they wanna keep it a 2-4

[edgy pond]

Basically the excact performance of the current .22H 😅

[bleak flicker]

Pretty much. honestly the .22 h would be better as a 1-3

[carmine crown]

I feel like that would be a bit overpowered

You gotta remember that the devs seem to care a lot about weapon balancing, so being able to shoot everything from a rabbit to a chamois or feral goat would be a bit overpowered for just one rifle

[bleak flicker]

7mm

[carmine crown]

Yeah the 7mm is horribly unbalanced I completely agree. I was completely against the idea of a bolt action 7mm being added to the game but seeing as it’s kinda finalized now I’m gonna make use of it

[bleak flicker]

I didn't mean to sound like dick, but i may have. What I mean is their idea of balance seems borked to begin with so i don't understand why they're being so insistent on it. I'd much prefer realistic ballistics and a set list of acceptable calibers for each animal. Maybe keep the classes as they are but enforce the reccomended caliber by a heavy penalty on money the animal brings in like if you shoot a red deer with a .223 it's an automatic no medal/no cash thing

[carmine crown]

You explained my thoughts perfectly. They claim they need balance between the weapons but then bring out shit like the 5 round .338 and bolt action 7mm. I originally stated that the developers claim they want balance but I and many others have seen the exact opposite. To me it feels less like they want balance and more like they want to make previous weapons obsolete in favour of pushing out paid content.
And don’t worry you did not come off like an asshole :)

[bleak flicker]

Yeah, "we don't want to paywall anything" sounds flatly false, of all the original rifles only the .243 still functions well

The .270 in particualr should do well on elk, getting double lung shots if not passing through but now you may not get a single lung depending on range

[gusty moth]

The 300 should be a 6-9 class weapon. I know lots of people that use it for smaller animals such as mule deer. Also many people in Africa use it for wildebeest as well.

[edgy pond]

idk why a bolt action 7mm is supposedly worse than a semi auto .308 in terms of 'balancing'. tbh none of this is balanced and I think there is an intentional power creep. 🤷‍♂️

[bleak flicker]

You know what, I'd like to see the .300 get the same treatment as the 7mm, 4-9 with falloff on the higher end but still useful in most situations. the .338 should be the high end for power under .35 caliber or so. Maybe the .300 should have* a bit more punch* than the 7mm because it uses a larger diameter bullet

[gusty moth]

If this was based on realism the calibers like 7mm would have lot less power. It would be a 3-7 class gun and the 300 would be a 6-8 class gun.

[bleak flicker]

I tried one out a few years ago, it did just fine on whitetails in my area and they're smaller than average

[gusty moth]

Honestly lions should be a class 7 animal and bears (brown and grizzly bears) should class 9. What would win 1v1 a 550lb male lion or a 700lb male grizzly.

[edgy pond]

Bullet diameter is not everything. You gotta have good muzzle energy and good aerodynamic coefficient to hold on to that energy.
Like, .458 SOCOM is a really thick bullet but it's round nosed so it bleeds energy real bad. Or a 9mm Parabellum (pistol round) which has thicker bore than a 7mm rifle round but obviously has less total muzzle energy because there's a lot less powder behind it.

[bleak flicker]

Classing lions (thin skinned dangerous game) the same as cape Buffalo (thick skinned dangerous game) is a real oversight. Maybe lions, leopards and cougars would fit with black bears as class seven and brown/grizz would fit beside bison in class 9

[bleak flicker]

I do mean bc, the .300 has more power than the 7mm but people use them both (comfortably) for much all big game

[gusty moth]

Yeah definitely. Now if they made lions pride hunters like wolves that's one thing but only 1 at a time comes after you then they should be a class 7.

[edgy pond]

I mean in terms of pure mass and size, as well as the toughness/survivability of the animal, I agree with this statement. But there is a reason why lions are classed as large and dangerous game in Africa.

Really it should say large and/or dangerous. The point is that the rifle classification is for the sake of ethics consideration. And when you kill a lion you're allowed a safety margin in firepower due to how dangerous they are.

[edgy pond]

I agree that they can be used similarly on some large game but there are some people who swear by the .300 and claim that it is impossible to quick kill a moose with the 7mm.

[gusty moth]

They should have a separate classification for predators.

[bleak flicker]

Yeah, i mean make the .300 4-9 with less pen on class 9's

[gusty moth]

The 300 magnum is one of if not the most versatile hunting cartridge in the world. From low recoiled loads to power levels almost with dangerous game rifles. Talking about deer sized game on up

[bleak flicker]

I have a book on my shelf, talking about driven hunts in Germany, there are people in the book who swear by the .300 for ** Roe Deer** on the virtue of fast dispatch

[gusty moth]

Exactly. Game make the 300 win mag out to be a hand cannon while in reality it can be handloaded for any animals within ethics.

[bleak flicker]

I would absolutely not shoot a tiny roe deer with a .300, on the other hand my .30-30 has taken 6 bears with one shot each between 60 and 140 yds

[candid vale]

After reading for the past 15min on both really both the 7mm and 300 if going off irl stuff should be 4-8

Neither should ever be thought to use on bison lions and Buffalo

[bleak flicker]

i mean, that's not wrong really

[gusty moth]

Honestly the muzzleloaders should be 5-9 class.

[candid vale]

4-9* 1000s of deer die every year to them

Not being able to hunt wt with one would be the worst things possible

[gusty moth]

Yeah 4-9. I think gray wolves need to go up to level 6. I shot one in the game with 12ga buckshot point blank and It did not kill it instantly. I shot it in the face.

[candid vale]

12ga buck shot needs a buff so bad it's not even funny

Like you can almost never get lung on a deer with it

[gusty moth]

Yes. I shot a pig with in in game and it did not kill the pig. I even shot an ibex with it and it did not kill it. Less than 50 yards away from all three on them

[candid vale]

It needs the pin of the 243 instead of the 22

[bleak flicker]

Birdshot needs a buff too, past 20 yds or so geese shrug it off like rain

[candid vale]

Yeah all the cluster shots need it

[gusty moth]

Exactly. @bleak flicker I don't know about that because I killed a bison with 12 ga bird shot in less than 4 shots. @candid vale very true about that point.

[candid vale]

I think that was do to the 45 pellets

A time

And how bleed goes in this game

Lmao 200 bbs went into it

[gusty moth]

@candid vale 12ga birdshot and buckshot need a big buff big time. I feel like the 16ga is better than the 12ga.

[candid vale]

But at 35+ yards it's hard to get 5+ on a goose

[bleak flicker]

Okay, the shotguns need a choke attachement at the least, I shot a turkey last night at ten yards, and only 2 pellets hit

[candid vale]

Chokes could fix the birdshot problem

[gusty moth]

I can't kill any geese with a 10ga once they have taken off. Except with a 22 I can't kill them once they are flying

[candid vale]

Trying to hit today's geese with the 10ga is a act of god

Pre Finland it was easy to at 50+yards

[gusty moth]

Yeah. It says on the description that the 10ga is the best shotgun for bigger birds like geese and turkeys. But yet I can't kill a goose with a 10ga once there past 25 yards.

[candid vale]

Yeah if you can tho it wrecks them or at least used to

[gusty moth]

I literally make a set of decoys. And then walk 150 yards away and wait for them with a 22.

[candid vale]

If the 20ga sxs was in 12ga it would be amazing and worked better with that long ass barrel

[bleak flicker]

Shouldn't it be lighter than the o/u?

[candid vale]

Eh not really imo

Both are 2 barrel just ones up down other is side side

[gusty moth]

If we keep having trouble with geese they need to make a punt gun for them.

[bleak flicker]

0.5 lighter shouldn't hurt right? i mean it is a much smaller gauge

[candid vale]

Yeah but length imo the 20 ga is like almost a foot longer then the 12 o/u so weight wise would come to almost the same maybe maybe a .5 different it could go both ways

I think the o/u has a 24 or 28in barrel and the sxs has a 34 or 36 if not a 38

[gusty moth]

I wish for the 45 magnifico you could have 410 shells and 45 rounds in at the same time.

[candid vale]

Shoots deer with 410 bird well shit

Hmm

[bleak flicker]

I like the .410 bird shot for really close turkeys and rabbit burrows

[candid vale]

I wish we had a single shot 410 in game

Or a lever action

But in reality the bolt 7mm isn't unbalanced at all when compared to the m1 303 and 308 since those are 5 round and can shoot a lot faster it just makes the 7mm rank up with them now that the single shot and show reload always hurt it

[bleak flicker]

I won't argue that the BA 7mm was needed but where's the appeal of the break action now?

[prime relic]

To me 7mm ba still isn't gonna be a main loadout weapon, however it'll be a great gun to carry for new maps including alot classes 4 to 9 animals.

[candid vale]

I mean if your base game or wanting the feel or risk of the ba it's still up there

Like the 7mm ba wasn't up there now this just brings more look at the 7mm cartridge

As soon as the 30-06 and 300 was added it lost a lot of it's need

Just people like me and others liked the 4-9 and little more power and just didn't take a lot of shots at many targets

[prime relic]

Yeah pretty much, especially when they made the 30-06 class 2.5 and not just 3 on the old scoring/class system allowing 30-06 to get 100% integrity with 2 shots on wolves and pumas while 7mm would mess them up on the 2nd shot

[candid vale]

Well that's really interesting

I never played on old scoring so I never knew that

I just knew of goose hunting with the 223

[bleak flicker]

Come to think of it, that's tru isn't it?

[prime relic]

Oh yeah it was way more strict, only way to get a good score on a diamond buffalo was a neck, heart or brain shot. Yes you use to be able to do brain shots and not be punished by it

Also 6.5, 270, 30-06 and 7mm didn't get integrity on blacktail or fallow deer

[candid vale]

Really the only thing the 7mm bolt does is bring real competition to the big 3 4-8s give the 7mm cartridge more attention and gives most likely lighter weight more versatile option for class 9s

[bleak flicker]

You know, a five class system for weapons and animals might be workable

[prime relic]

It use to be that way. Classes 0 1 2 3 and 4. But also had hidden ones like class 0.5, 2.5 etc. It was a mess

[candid vale]

And I'm expecting the 338 bolt to be heavy as hell at least 5 weight so it won't blow the 300 out with it being 4 weight and still a 4 shot

But give a really good alternative to the 300 instead of the 300 being the only most dominant weapon for its class range

[candid vale]

That's awful

Really if you want to look at the most broken weapon in the game the 243 pistol is probably the most broken weapon with being able to take half of the species in the game with a weapon that weighs one unit

[prime relic]

yeah however the mosin was insane on scoring 1.0, you could get full score on coyotes, jackals. with heart or brain or neck elk and moose too. It was the king of rifles until scoring 2.0 where it was originally gonna be classes 2 to 6 but was changed to 3 to 7 based off of community feedback before the update.

[candid vale]

And being able to take rifle scopes and zeroing at 200 m was still a relatively flat trajectory

[candid vale]

Yeah I remember hearing the mosin was broken almost

Back release

[prime relic]

It was so good. But as you tell cotw gun system has always been very unbalanced/broken

[candid vale]

Imagine having a single rifle that can basically solo every map now days

[bleak flicker]

That was pretty much when the .270 became obsolete in favor of dlc

[candid vale]

Like the 7mm is close but damn coyote to moose is amazing

[prime relic]

270 was already obsolete for me as I always went after blacktail way more then whitetail so I just used 243 since you couldn't use 270 on blacktail just whitetail

[candid vale]

Spine neck on the 243 was great on a lot wasn't it?

[bleak flicker]

Oh right, i forgot that stupidness

[prime relic]

Yeah but I only got to play like 3 months of spine shots because the lion update took that away and made lung shots the go to

[candid vale]

Ay

[bleak flicker]

I understand they have to make them worth buying, but dlc weapons outclassing the base game weapons feels very sleazy. Guns attached to maps make sense in a way, but regular dlc packs don't really

I don't mean to be an ass by that, I just mean the base game weapons should do the job fine, the dlc should be "you know, if you want something different once in a while we have these too

[prime relic]

At least most base game weapons are useful after scoring 2.0 came out. However on scoring 1.0 223 actually had a purpose as you could only use it on foxes and musk deer. Then scoring 2.0 killed it because of the 243 now being allowed for them

[edgy pond]

I'm pretty sure there's a suggestion to buff the .300 😆

[candid vale]

Yeah if anything it needs a nerf

[prime relic]

I would love 300 and 9.3x74r to switch stats

[candid vale]

But if so you'll need to nerf the 308 30-06 etc

[candid vale]

That would be perfect

[carmine crown]

💀💀💀

[bleak flicker]

I want the .300 to balance between 7mm and .338 in power

[candid vale]

I mean that's basically what is is now just 1 or 2 classes to high and a hair to much power

[bleak flicker]

Maybe instead of the 7mm's 4-9, the .300 should be a 6-9 so it works for a wider range of animals but still have a place

[candid vale]

Like Jonny said a class 5-9 or 6-9 would do good and just a hair lower power

[bleak flicker]

True. i do feel like the .338 doesn't have nearly enough pen but i've also read that water buffalo can shrug off .338 rounds

[candid vale]

And the drilling being 7-9 and a bit more powerful then the 300 would help the 9.3 a lot

[prime relic]

Especially if they do an over and under 9.3

[candid vale]

That would be amazing

[bleak flicker]

If they just ported the one in classic it would be incredible, it's a monster

[gusty moth]

The 300;would be perfect for the pesky reds.

[candid vale]

Yeah with a slight nerf

I killed almost 5000 of them with it

[gusty moth]

Of course love to see either a buff or a nerf to 3-6 with the 6.5

[edgy pond]

Yeah I found it
#1071188393662369893 message
👀

[violet cliff]

I kinda wish the codex had a ballistics section for each gun or the gun profile would say something about the bullet drop

[bleak flicker]

facts

[violet cliff]

Like you know if you look on the back of an ammo box irl it has the ballistics of that certain bullet

[bleak flicker]

Bullet weight matters infinitely more than they style of bullet too

[violet cliff]

Yep

[bleak flicker]

I'd like to see three ammo types per caliber, separated by bullet weight, so a single caliber could handle most classes

Like a .30-06 having 150 grain bullets for 3-5, 180 grains for 4-7, and 200 grains for 6-8, so it could be more effective at those specific classes

[violet cliff]

That would make loadouts simpler

[bleak flicker]

Yeah it'd be nice to set up a weapon to focus on one type of animal. like a .300 using 220 grain bullets would be better on moose than the same rifle using a 180 grain round

[carmine crown]

The issue with that is how do you effectively balance being able to cover that many different classes? It’s a really cool idea but it would be tough to implement

[bleak flicker]

Restrict loadouts to one ammo type per caliber. If you 06 is covering 4-7, a 87 grain .243 is covering 2-4 with minor overlap, and a 220grain .300-is covering 7-9

[woeful ridge]

I think I'd have the cap lock 2-6 with round ball and 6-9 with minie balls but have a saboted and full bore conical for the inline, sabot 3-8 and full bore 8-9. Muzzleloaders can be extrememly powerful at close range with heavy bullets even though the kinetic engergy isnt there, its hard to argue with 370 grains of lead.

[random jetty]

Absolutely agree. A lot of calibers underpenetrate, especially my favorites .223, 6.5, buckshot, etc.

[bleak flicker]

As for balance, making weapons heavier would do it

[hushed iris]

I've suggested something similar to this before, I called it adding a stat with the accuracy, hip shot, etc. called Power to show exactly how good a rifle is compared to another. For example, the 30-06 and M1 use the same ammo but in my experience the M1 is a lot more powerful. So if there were a Power stat you'd know which one is better before choosing to use it.

It would also help differentiate the weapons with ammo stats that don't make sense in comparison to others; like how the 7mm Polymer-Tip has 40 Penetration for Class 4-9 and the .308 Polymer-Tip has 44 Penetration for Classed 4-8 would make more sense if a stat or rating showed that the 7mm had more boom to it.

[fallow granite]

Here's the issue guys. I've been hunting with all different types of weapons for over 40 years. The handguns and bows in this game are for the most part. Have realistically accurate stats. But as far as the rifles. They are relating everything to certain peoples thoughts and preferences. Not good. They need to get a consult with multiple ballistics experts and use real world statistics. In what universe does a 30/30 or a 45/70 zero at 82 yards while a blackpowder of any type zero at 218 yards? Let alone the way all of these other calibers are misrepresented. The 303 and the 308 seem to be the closest to reality. But even there the 308 bolt-action should have the same accuracy as the 303. Why would anyone want to use the bolt when it has the same accuracy as the semi-auto platform. Unrealistic. The rifles need attention from true ballistics experts. Not anyone's opinions. Including my own. Because we're all bias to some preferred weapons over others. Whereas the truth is the truth.

[hushed iris]

The bolt-action .308 has more drop than the AR version. I don't use Zeroing so both to me are permanently zeroed to 164 yards and at 328 the AR is spot on with the center of the Hyperion but with the bolt action version I have to aim higher, almost to the first dot on the scope (getting a bullseye/10 vs. a low 6 at the firing range using the Center). So these weapons should have a Power rating to show that the AR would fire better/stronger.

[fallow granite]

I don't use zeroing either. And your statement right here. Is proving my point in the best way possible. Thank you.

[bleak flicker]

Jaxy keeps saying the ammo makes the difference but that's been proven wrong over and over again. like the new .45-70 rework applies only to the new pistol and has changed nothing for the rifle originally in game

I don't even know why they need to balance the weapons, its not a pvp game. I'd rather just have the weapons be heavy and work like they are supposed to.

[fallow granite]

You're making my exact point with your statement yet again. (Work like they're supposed to!)

[hushed iris]

Like how the .303, 7mm and 9.3x74R Polymer-Tips are all 40 Penetration and 12 Expansion, but one is for classes 4-8, one is 4-9 and the other is 5-9. And there's no indication as to why unless you're familiar with rifles in real life.

And the .30-30 is 35/4 while the .270 is 35/5 but one is for classes 2-6 and the other is for 4-8. 1 extra expansion increases its effectiveness that much? If not, then the rifles themselves should be indicating why that is.

[fallow granite]

It's because those stats are like I said. Not facts, but someone's personal opinion.

[bleak flicker]

The range restrictions on the lever action rifles make no sense either

All the base game weapons are entirely obsolete because of DLC, but they haven't rebalanced them at all the .30-30 was meant to be the alt to the .243 in the base game but now they have better calibers for that like the 6.5 and .22-250. Judging by my own experience with the .30-30 and 15 years hunting it should be a 3-7 class weapon alongside the .270 and 7.62x54r. Never met anyone who uses a .45-70 on deer tho so i think it would be better off as a 6/7-9 and both of them need a serious buff

[fallow granite]

We are in total agreement. Sounds like with RL personal experience. I know I butcher my own animals and see the results of the damage done by my shots/weapons along with friends and family members shots/weapons. So I've got a pretty good handle on cause & effect across lots of calibers and bullet types. Weapons included.

[hushed iris]

I agree with all of this. And I also think they should separate polymer/softpoint ammo classes. For example, I would really prefer the 6.5mm to be a 3-7 because it's probably the weakest of the 4-8 rifles but I'm fine with the Polymer Tips being 4-8 because like it was said earlier people use it on Moose IRL. But if you keep the Polymer Tips 4-8 then I think bringing the soft point ammo down to 3-7 or even 2-6 would be more accurate to how it performs. [I had more to add but this pretty much covers it].

I think most weapons should have this change, especially the base game weapons which were designed the way they are before classes were in the game; you could use the .243 on bears because all you needed was quick kill bonus but for a long time now people barely/rarely use it on anything larger than a Roe Deer. So leave the Polymer Tips at 2-6 but bring the Soft Points down to 2-4. I know that limits new players or players that are out of in-game currency and need the free ammo to earn money, but new players will probably be on Layton and the only things on Layton between 2-6 are class 2 and class 4 so it makes sense.

It excuses the Red Deer on Hirschfelden, which is the biggest money-maker in those situations, but I still feel it will be accurate in the grander scheme of things.

[bleak flicker]

The game started with just 4 classes of animals/weapons and the base game calibers were fantastic back then. But its been seven years and they haven't been changed much at all. At lease since scoring 2.0 I haven't seen them do anything to make the older weapons compete with DLC. It should be our choice what to hunt with rather than them changing the game and animals so the DLCs are almost mandatory

Weapon skill and level restrictions also need to be dropped since DLC unlocked almost all the ammo anyway and the E-caller calls everything. Calls and scent shouldn't have been level locked in the first place

[hushed iris]

I agree. I think to have Moose one of the most common animals on a base game map and then lock its caller to level 37 I think it is, maybe 28 (I get it mixed up with the Red Deer Caller), is pretty wild. And I do use scents occasionally but I hunt differently than most people in this game so to force you to have at least one point in scents, more if you have nothing else useful to put a point in to unlock a higher tier in that Skill Tree, is actually kinda crazy. That's at least 1-2 points wasted that you could use elsewhere.

[bleak flicker]

Apparently, if you could build your own perk tree out to suit your play style that would be too strong.
Personally, i like stalk animals and make really close shots, but you have to waste so many points to even unlock decent stalking perks its annoying

[hushed iris]

We only get 22 Skill Points and 22 Perk Points. To get everything you'd need about 32 Skill Points and 40 Perk Points. I would say even if they weren't locked to tiers, if I could put my 22 point anywhere without needing something else first, I'd still be about 2 points short from how I think it would be absolutely perfect. So sure, it would be "too strong" but the way a lot of people play makes the game easy enough anyway, so I would go as far as saying it would be more comfortable without restrictions rather than easier.

However, we are getting off topic. This is a ballistics rework thread, we should make a new one or contribute to a previous one for skills and perks.

[bleak flicker]

Scope sway is also horrifically bad even with the perks, have you noticed how bad the spread is with shotguns?

take a look at the shot distance

[hushed iris]

I actually don't use the weapon sway perks. I don't shoot a ton unless I'm in a stand or crouched, unless I absolutely have to, and the Hyperion has reduced sway built in when in a stand or crouching. From standing it's pretty bad, but I find that it's not fully as necessary as you might think

I feel like weapon accuracy also plays a role in that

[bleak flicker]

I take them because its hard to keep track of animals in heavy brush when you are aiming, iron sights are my go to but some weapons have crappy sights so i need less scope sway

[hushed iris]

Speaking of shotguns and going back to ballastics, until recently Grankin's Shotgun used to be my favorite. I had the Boomstick Perk to fire both barrels at the same time, which if you have 4 or 5 ducks or geese in the same spot, is devastating. But the stats on it weren't accurate. It had 29 Reload Speed but it seemed to be the fastest reloading shotgun in the game. The story was that Grankin had modified his Caversham into a custom 12G and that's why it had extra power and accuracy even though it was essentially the same thing. But a few updates ago they changed it to just be another 'premium color variation" of the Caversham with the same stats, which kinda makes the description of it kinda misleading and the story of why it is the way it is pretty irrelevant.

Other descriptions that are misleading are some scopes and binoculars. They say they are "fog proof" and "weather proof" but none of them cut through fog or rain, and in fact the nightvision binoculars are worse in fog. So that makes the expensive rangrfindjng binoculars no better than the standard rangefinder for twice the price. I'm pretty sure they have the same zoom, which isn't specified but is said by content creators to be about 3-7x.

So more than just ballistics, a lot of things need a slight tweak or rework.

[keen tendon]

It’s probably time for a complete rework/overhaul to firearms’ performance, calibers’ performance, and ammunitions & types.

The question is, can the current engine handle this or will the focus need to continue in it’s current direction? 🤷‍♂️

[bleak flicker]

They've been able to modify it little by little all this time but they should be able to focus on updating them in tiers. base game first, earlier DLC, then the Latest, and the new DLC to come can just follow it

[keen tendon]

That would be a delightful improvement. There would be a noticeable betterment with merely phase one hitting. 😯

[bleak flicker]

They don't have to do too awful much at once really, Do base game with a new map and then do a couple sets of DLC weapons at a time with new equipment packs or cosmetics.

Honestly, if they focused on making the guns more realistic they could balance it by just changing the weight system to be realistic as well then it solves the issue. 6-12 pounds for all the weapons would change the whole dynamic and make it viable that you carry two weapons that cover a lot of classes rather than 4-5 weapons to cover a few each.

[keen tendon]

I wonder what the developers are thinking as they read our conversations.. 🤔 😆

[bleak flicker]

"Oh no" "why didn't we think of that" "some of these guys are real A-holes"

[keen tendon]

😆

[bleak flicker]

bump

[fallow granite]

They don't need to carry all the weight. They've done a great job with what they have done. But like I have said so many times. They need a ballistics experts advice. Not our opinions. I saw that shotgun photo someone posted earlier. You do realize that is buckshot which is actually 38 caliber balls. Right. That's not birdshot which is little tiny bb's. That shot in real life would be a cruel and slow infectious death.

[bleak flicker]

They can contact hunting guides, Remi Warren, even SCI. They have options, and I know what size buckshot is, I also know that at 10 yards it should have much more grouped and gotten better penetration. This isn't real life but they need to stop and think about the damage these weapons should do just from a common sense standpoint

[fallow granite]

You are right about the damage perspective but the Remi Warren is a Guide. Not a ballistics expert.

[bleak flicker]

Experienced hunter. He'd still have better advice than them going to a gun range and shooting paper to decide things

[fallow granite]

Please understand my point. We're trying to get away from any and all biased opinions. I know I have some. I'm sure you do too. As I'm sure Remi does also. Do you get what I'm saying? Mfg's specifications! Period. Or even better. A legitimate ballistics tester!

[bleak flicker]

which would tell them exactly what about real world effect on animals? They can either talk to hunters who confirm the penetration and effect on animals they have experience with or directly test it with ballistics gel replicas which would be far too expensive to justify. I've personally seen a whitetail around a hundred sixty pounds take a 170 grain .30-30 bullet and run a hundred yards or so, when I opened the cavity the bullet at gone through the shoulder blade, ribs, both lungs and stuck under the hide on the off side.

They are making choices based on ballistics tables and its not working

[fallow granite]

OK so let's just forget the whole thing and run with your bad shot placement. Which I know for a fact you are exactly right about that penetration with that shot. Because I've made the same exact shot with the same grain of bullet and got the results you did. Which in my eyes. In the game. Should not pass a harvest check for destruction of edible meat. So I'm pretty much done with this conversation about opinions.

[bleak flicker]

Meat destruction is in way of the hunter, it was not considered by the devs of this game even slightly as a mechanic. I made the shot to test penetration and nothing else. It shows a fault in the ballistics of this game and part of the reason we are asking for it to be changed. it's not an opinion, just evidence