#Re-balancing of the .223 and 6.5

1 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

fresh crow
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These rifles are largely referred to as two of the weakest weapons in the game, with the .223 struggling on anything larger than a fox and the 6.5 having difficulty on things larger than Class 6.

My suggestion is the .223 either receiving a buff, or be bumped down to being a 1-3 rifle (which would also add a Class 1 rifle to the base game at the same time) while being made a little heavier to compensate,

and the 6.5 being adjusted to a 3-7 rifle. As of right now the only 3-7 choices are the Mosin, which lacks a polymer bullet, and the Hudzik's round-ball ammo, which is severely range-restricted.
Not to mention the oversaturation of 4-8 rifles, which as of right now is a whopping 8 choices, compared to everything else, which only have 2 or 3 choices.

worldly zephyr
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I agree

lone jungle
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Building on what Lyra said specifically for the .223 cartridge, I'd like to split this into two separate suggestions for improvement:

1: Straight buff to the .223 caliber. I.e. adjust penetration to 160% of the current setting, and consider giving a 4 or 5 % boost to exp.

**2: Add additional cartridge choices for the .223 rifles. **
The doscent (bolt action) can get a low-powder fmj round that can kill class 1-2 with full pass through.
And the Zarza (AR15) can get access to the 5.56 NATO cartridge, let's say for class 3-5.
(Both rifles retaining the option of the current .223 with no buff).

supple skiff
fast hemlock
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This is genius. Would like to see the .270 as 3-7 as well, it doesn't really compete with the other 4-8 rifles either.

lone jungle
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While on the subject of weapon rebalancing, can we look at the mass of the Streckers 20g double barrel shotgun?
A 20g double should not weigh as much as a 12g double.

supple skiff
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Yes

fresh crow
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Make that 9 choices of 4-8 weapons, as of the new weapon pack.

long cedar
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Honestly I see no hope for 6.5 getting changed or 223

fresh crow
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technically 10 options of rifles that cover 4-8, as of the 7mm bolt-action.

long cedar
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The list just gets longer xD

lone jungle
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I'm a huge fan of this new weapon pack and I've got nothing against more 4-8 rifles but you're probably right about the 6.5. Buff it or move it to lower classes.

median jacinth
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Buff it and reclass it it's horrible on chamois and goats even at 4

fast hemlock
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Would like to see the .223 Valkyrie in game, it's designed to use heavier bullets and provide longer effective range, making it more viable in taking deer sized game.

wet sentinel
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I love this post. Don't know why I can't like it but I agree with it. This particular post won't let me put a thumbs up on it.

median jacinth
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I have that problem with some in the gallery

long cedar
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Hopefully they'll buff the 223 next since they are adding a base game lodge

long cedar
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Can we add 338 to needing a penetration buff to the list? XD

fast hemlock
wet sentinel
lone jungle
# wet sentinel No the 45-70 should be between the 300 and 338.

@fast hemlock I tried to find some data to back up you guys' pen ratings for these cartridges. Unsurprisingly, there is a lot of bias and misconceptions among firearms enthusiasts and it really depends who you ask.

If you look at the pure math, the .300 and .338 will have a kinetic energy and ballistic coefficient advantage, but these kinds of numbers don't properly account for the mass and terminal performance of the bullet once it hits the animal.

Randy M. Garrett, President of Garrett Cartridges (Texas), made a point of this, noting that a hard-cast .45-70 is wide enough to create a sufficient wound channel in the animal without expansion. And in comparison something like a .300 will rely on expansion (deformation of the bullet) in order to kill the animal effectively. As a result, the modern bullet will only ever achieve about half the pen depth as the .45-70
"A properly loaded 45-70 will shoot lengthwise through anything in North America, something the various high velocity calibers simply cannot do or even come close to."
Source: https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13164

Now that's the lever-action guy talking. Keep in mind the .300's have some really strong numbers on their side and the fact is you never actually want to shoot through anything lengthwise. In a realistic scenario where your .300 bullet goes straight through an elk's broadside, it will have delivered most, if not all its kinetic energy into that unfortunate animals lungs/arteries. Meanwhile the superior pen depth of a .45-70 is going to waste because the bullet overpens the target and retains a lot of it's energy on the other side.

And then there's the external ballistics (in flight) performance. As mentioned the .300 and .338 will have superior aerodynamics and carry energy further. I believe this is actually modeled in the game, both in terms of increased bullet drop and more rapidly decreasing pen at long range for the round nose calibers.

lone jungle
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And that brings up an important point, because all this happens in a game where the developers have force lowered the penetration depth as a gameplay design choice, and all interactions with animals happen at under 450 meters. -So are we trying to achieve 'realism' or is this about 'balancing' ?

Because if you want 'realism' then all calibers need pen buffs across the board, simple as that, and I'm confident that that's not going to happen.

Meanwhile, we can focus on stuff like the .223 , which is just ridiculously underpowered no matter how you put it, which is why this thread is so on point.

fast hemlock
lone jungle
fast hemlock
# lone jungle You're not wrong, but I just don't think it will happen. Just to be clear, I'm ...

Oh no i didn't mean it like that, the more i think about it the more I'd rather see the same system of ammo/ethics in cotw, how all the guns perform more realisticly and they have a max/min for what's acceptable.

To be totally clear, when i'm saying a buff for all base game weapons I don't mean flatly equal. There has to be some reason to buy the packs after all, I just mean enough of a buff to make them almost as good

median jacinth
daring crag
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I've been saying this about the 6.5 for years. It definitely needs to drop to 3-7. It would make it relevant which it never has been.

burnt mesa
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I'm more in favor of, instead of "buffing" specifically, just change the class ranges. Give the .223 Polymer Tips a small buff to be more effective on Class 4 but keep the Soft Points as-is and drop them to 1-3. Same with the 6.5; keep it pretty much as is, but alter the Classes to 3-7 for the Polymer and 2-5 for the Soft Points. I think with more options like that, the Soft Points might actually get more use rather than being largely ignored by everybody.

pliant nova
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I think .223 should be buffed to handle 2-5 so to overlap with the .308 at 4-8.

wet sentinel
indigo shale
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.223 is limited irl on whitetail which is class 4 in game. It's can be used and legal for whitetail in most states. It's effective range is limited and shot placement and animal position when shot is even more important than with let's say a 30.06 or .270. Typically the bullet weights needed for whitetail sized game are in the 60's and more common ammo is in the 40 grain range. Idk that it really needs buffed in game.

wet sentinel
vale steppe
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The solokhin should be bumped down as well to a class 2 to 5-7 weapon. The solokhin is way more powerful than the 6.5 as with broadside shots, but the nerf they gave it killed it for punching through the shoulder or leg bone. It would be an amazing rifle to fix the class 2 having nothing but trash. As it stands the best weapon for Class 2 is a single shot pistol, and that isn't right.

long cedar
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Imo the 7.62x54r (mosin) should actually be buffed and moved to 4 to 8 ( even though I hate saying that since we have too many 4 to 8 rifles, it is more like 308 irl ). It would be basically the same as the 308, 30-06 etc, it also needs a bullet with more penetration and less expansion. because if we want a realistic gun system ( that is balanced and makes sense ) unfortunately this change would have to happen.

lone jungle
indigo shale
lone jungle
long cedar
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100!!

fresh crow
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😳

median jacinth
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Congratulations!

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The 3rd? 100

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Lol you got there before Africa

fast hemlock
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Wow, Congrats Lyra

wet sentinel
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@median jacinth can you please change my name. You know who did this to me. I didn't even say anything bad about cats.

median jacinth
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@wet sentinel

wet sentinel
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Thank you. I made fun of a cat and cashnip punished me.

median jacinth
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Np

lone jungle
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Wholesome.

median jacinth
wet sentinel
# median jacinth -_-

Yeah. I said that cats are wussies and he went crazy on me. Well might or might not do it again.

long cedar
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Just gonna say something so this doesn't get buried xD

supple skiff
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Indeed

brave pawn
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I see it’s been said a few times already but I have to agree that all weapons need a penetration buff. Also the 300 and 338 honestly need dropped down a class, they aren’t realistically used for lions and buffalo. I know the devs would say how they would have to have a rifle capable of class 9 in the base game, in which case add a .375 h&h for class 7-9 it makes more sense realistically.

long cedar
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Bumping this up again

neon lance
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why not just slightly buff the 6.5

median jacinth
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Because of the overload of 4-8 guns

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And the biggest animal on the map you get it from is only a class 6 and has a class 3 so it would be even better

fast hemlock
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.270 and 6.5 would be super nice as 3-7, otherwise a decent 20-25% pen buff across all rifles and shotgun shells of all types (lookin at you birdshot that doesn't take down geese)

supple skiff
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indeed

long cedar
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Bump

fast hemlock
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Base game rifle penetration buff please, everything but the .243 is practically obsolete now

long cedar
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Yeah pretty much

median jacinth
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Hehehehe 7mm pen buff

fast hemlock
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I freaking hope so!

long cedar
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Oh my gosh its HAPPENING

supple skiff
hasty gazelle
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Well the 223 got rebalanced, now I could probably use it more on maps like Hirschfelden, Revontouli and Mississippi

long cedar
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Now we just gotta hope other weapons get redone like 45-70, 9.3x74r, 30-30, 6.5, 270 and more

fresh crow
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the .223 has been buffed (thank you devs!) but the 6.5 remains...

crystal umbra
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I still want the .223 to be buffed. It kills a bit quicker now, which is nice, but it needed much more penetration, which it didn’t get unfortunately.

long cedar
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Yep mildly disappointed on class 3, but class 2 it does really good now

fast hemlock
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At least we have hope they'll buff the other base game weapons right?

hollow stream
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6.5 and .270 to 3-7 🙏🏻

rocky sierra
hollow stream
# rocky sierra Honestly 6.5 can probably go to 2-6 or 2-5

6.5 as a 2-6 would be good but I think it would then make the .243 obsolete. Maybe the first 2-7 just to have that option for a perfectly placed shot or close range shot on a bear. Thoughts? In saying that it is a dlc weapon so it is completely optional I suppose

rocky sierra
rocky sierra
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There’s 2 obvious good ones and a whole lot of meh ones

burnt mesa
# rocky sierra I mean if ew wants anything to make sense some weapons will have to be a little ...

I think what makes more sense is to change the classes of the Polymer Tips and Soft Point ammo so that they're not the same thing unless close to each other in stats. For example, make the 6.5mm polymer tips a 3-7 but its soft points 2-6. And alter some ammo that has similar stats but different class ranges; like the .270 polymer tips have 35 Penetration and 5 Expansion for Classes 4-8 while the 30-30 soft points have 35 Penetration and 4 Expansion for classes 2-6. That doesn't make any sense to me. But some will say it makes sense because the Whitlock lever action isn't as strong of a rifle, and there's where my argument of rifles having a power or strength rating alongside accuracy, reload, etc. to let us know that, comes into play. Either way, the "reason" EW has of balance isn't actually balanced at all when you really dissect it.

burnt crescent
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I mainly focus on 223 and I think class 2-4 is appropriate, we just need a buff to penetration/stats in general. Should penetrate a bit on whitetail but otherwise kill slower than bigger calibers. Hunting with 223 is fun for me just wish it was more powerful to be true to life.

burnt mesa
burnt crescent
# burnt mesa I've been doing extremely well with the .22-250 soft points. Even accidentally g...

Well we know the stats aren't all accurate, 7.62x54r has more penetration than some .22 calibers. I agree 22 250 should be more powerful than 223 as it is in real life, but I specifically like hunting with 223. It was "buffed" but very marginally. I would like to see a proper rework for 223, as well as some other ammo. 6.5, buckshot in general, and some other underpowered ammo. It should be a lot more effective than it currently is, even post buff.

lone jungle
burnt crescent
lone jungle
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Yeah in general the .223 will suffer because every cartridge in the game lacks pen.

burnt mesa
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it seems like a lot of people want a .223 that will kill like a .308 or a .300 but that isn't what a .223 is supposed to do. At that point, we might as well just remove every weapon from the game, then add just one rifle that gets integrity on all classes 1-9 with one ammo that has 50 Penetration and 50 Expansion and a 1x-16x scope that has a button to turn on night vision. then we don't have to worry about anything not dying or not dying quickly enough.

fresh crow
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The main issue is, nearly every single base-game weapon is outclassed by a DLC weapon.

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.223? .22-250 is better.

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even with the buff.

lone jungle
# burnt mesa it seems like a lot of people want a .223 that will kill like a .308 or a .300 b...

I disagree because the performance of (most of) the cartridges in the game is unrealistically bad for the sake of 'gameplay balancing'.

IMO, the best solution is to produce a comprehensive buff for all calibers with a drastic increase in penetration depth. Then reduce the amount of HP damage/time experienced by affected organs to fit the new model.

That way the perfect shot is still difficult to master, but you have the option to use something like a .223 on a smaller deer.

Right now there is a wall caused by lack of penetration across the board. And as Lyra implied, people are resorting to 'meta' DLC guns for pure killing power rather than precision because of the power creep.

burnt mesa
# fresh crow .223? .22-250 is better.

I think there needs to be a complete overhaul of both weapons and ammo. I'm a big believer in soft point ammo and use it almost exclusively over polymer tips with the exception of a couple cases, mostly because I like the challenge of having to be precise with a shot and the thill of tracking something down. But also partly because I feel they're very neglected and need someone to love them. That said, on the topic of the .223 still not being buffed enough, I agree. It's better than it was before, but with the .22-250 now in the game, I can kill better with its soft points than with the .223's polymer tips, and I know a difference of 8 penetration isn't a lot, but it speaks volumes about how unbalanced a lot of the weapons are.

The .270 polymer tips have 35 penetration and, in my experience, kill class 7 and 8 animals a lot better than the 40 penetration of the 6.5mm polymer tips. But it's not just the .223 and 6.5mm that feel unbuffed... the .300 and .308 polymer tips have the same penetration and only 1 difference in expansion (13 vs. 14) but one is for classes 4-8 while the other is 7-9. I know IRL the .300 round is bigger than the .308 and does more damage, but just the stats/ratings alone in the game don't tell you that (except for the integrity numbers).

It seems to come down to which rifle has more punch or boom than another, and for something to have the same stats as something else but perform magnitudes better seems unbalanced to me. Especially without a stat or rating of some sort to tell you how much boom something is going to have. The M1 seems to have more boom than the 30-06, in my experience, but it uses the same exact ammo, not even a different ammo that's comparable. But just looking at them doesn't tell you that.

So I agree with the .223 and 6.5mm still needing to be reworked, but I also think the entirety of the ammo stats, weapon stats and class ranges need a complete overhaul.

lone jungle
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Basically same as my conclusion.

stray hornet
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Lost a mela bobcat to that 223 not having enough power to even hit the lung.

burnt mesa
fast hemlock
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Full scale weapon rework please

burnt mesa
# fast hemlock Full scale weapon rework please

this is probably the best solution, but it will take some time. There's a lot that has to be looked at, like how the .22LR Truncated Cone ammo has 17 Penetration and 1 Expansion for Class 1 and the .22H Polymer Tip ammo has 15 Penetration and 3 Expansion for Class 1-2. Not sure if IRL the extra 2 Expansion causes it to perform better on coyotes and fox, if there's some sort of regulation against using non-expanding ammo on them that I don't know about or if the Hornet is just a more powerful rifle than the Long Rifle (which should be indicated somewhere in the game). But for now, if at least the .223 and 6.5mm get the work they need done, I'll be happy

fast hemlock
# burnt mesa this is probably the best solution, but it will take some time. There's a lot th...

Massive difference actually. The .22 Hornet is a centerfire round using a lot more powder, it should be useable on class three because people do hunt with it, roe deer would be no issue with a decent bullet and proper shot placement. The truncated cone ammo would be an expanding bullet the same as the regular ammo. But it's made with a slightly different lead mixture, at the cost of being lighter it penetrates deeper. In context, It's meant more as a target ammo and very few people would hunt with it. It would kill a coyote, but you'd have to be very close and it would take a long time. The devs are clearly not hunters

fresh crow
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COTW isn't meant to be a Perfect Mirror to IRL.

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Liberties are taken to attempt to maintain game balancing.

fast hemlock
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I know it's for balance (still broken) I just wish they all ran roughly equal in the same classes, just to make it more personal choice than meta decided. love the .270's design and sights more than all of the base game rifles, but its just obsolete. the .45-70 needs to be buffed and moved to cover 7-9 and the .30-30 should be buffed to match the .243 and do a little better on class 6 animals so there's a reason to buy them

fresh crow
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suffice to say I'm no longer seeing a point in this suggestion staying up, considering that we essentially had it confirmed on stream today that the base-game weapons are supposed to be outclassed by DLC ones and that the 6.5 is going to be staying dead weight.

long cedar
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But 6.5 is dlc xD. I'm gonna make my own 6.5 post with videos to show why it should be 3 to 7

fresh crow
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good luck with that.
Because ✨they must maintain the game balance and not make any rifles The Meta™️✨

lone jungle
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I don't think taking down the post will help.

fast hemlock
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There already is a 3-7 rifle the DLC Solohkin, what's the difference if they added the 6.5 as a second DLC option and the .270 as a base game option to those classes?

ripe prawn
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Man .223 being 1-3 would be a godsend to me, as I need to find a rifle that's just that

crystal umbra
fast hemlock
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It's the inventory management that seems to be the issue, if the weights were balanced for hunting and not carrying an arsenal it would be better. rifle would have to be more versatile and realistic if you could only carry 2 at a time

ripe prawn
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also that

burnt mesa
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I'm still in favor of reclassing ammo if weapons themselves aren't going to be buffed or nerfed. Keep the 6.5mm polymer tips at 4-8 and let it be one of the weaker 4-8 options if you are more in need of the 200m (218yd.) effective range and flatter trajectory, but change the soft points to 3-7. And keep the .223 polymer tips at 2-4 to be a weaker cheaper option but reclass the soft points to 1-3 or 2-3.

In the same area, the. 300 polymer tips are 42/14 for Penetration/Expansion while the .308 is 44/13 and the .300 is 7-9 while the.308 is 4-8... I know it has to do with the .300 itself having more boom, but since the game doesn't tell us that it packs a much bigger punch than the .308, the ammo seems very incorrectly classed based on its stats

lone jungle
# fast hemlock It's the inventory management that seems to be the issue, if the weights were ba...

I honestly don't think that's the case. They could double the mass of each rifle or enforce a two gun max, but I still don't think they'd actually change the performance of the rifles.

And to be clear, I don't want a rifle buff. I want a terminal ballistics rework that changes the way rifle bullets behave/perform in the target. Like I said, if the pen depth was increased, but also the damage reduced, then suddenly the smaller caliber rifles make sense to carry again (Including .223 and 6.5).

I'd like to see an actual developer come on to the stream and debate this, like they do with the angler, because EW is running out of bad excuses for their "Game balancing" decisions.

long cedar
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So 270 got worse. It can't double lung fallow deer with a broadside shot at 172m when it use to be able to at 200m

Edit: actually fallow might of gotten tougher like moose did after their rework. Because its working fine on blacktail

stray hornet
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.22 kills a bobcat easier than a 223 (from experience)

fast hemlock
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Maybe it'd be better to take a page from WotH and list a kinetic energy with each round, rework the system with realistic KE and Range for all the weapons. the generally accepted minimum for deer sized thin skinned game is 1000 FtLbs, with modern ammo that'd be 200 yards or so in a .30-30. Realistic,useful, and competitive to other weapons, all of which the .30-30 is not right now

latent river
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irl the 6.55mm is a popular roe deer hunting rifle in sweden so ye pls 3-7 lol

rocky sierra
fast hemlock
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Yeah the Creedmore is more of a target round, the Swede is still way better for actual hunting

latent river
rocky sierra
fast hemlock
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The 6.5 Swede is incredibly popular all over the world for light-medium game. The Swedish themselves use it the way americans use the .30-06 and it's still made by tons of European hunting rifle brands. Super useful in Africa too, I've read before that a lot of hunting lodges/Pro Hunters there recommend it in a 2 gun battery to cover all the game they'll hunt. paired with a .375 usually

lone jungle
fast hemlock
lone jungle
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It can't be creedmore based on the trajectory. Too steep.
Must be a fictional 6.5 cartridge
Creedmoor*

rocky sierra
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Bump

hollow stream
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Bump for 6.5mm to class 3-7 👌🏻

long cedar
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Bump

mighty bluff
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6.5 creedmoore and .270 should really be 3-7 imo. They just don't compete in 4-8 and, like you said, our 3-7 choice is limited

grave python
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Please Yes. I Really Only Care About The 6.5 Rn. It’s Absolutely Blasphemous That It’s So Weak In This Game. I’ve Dropped Elk, Deer, And Wolves On The Spot With That Caliber Irl, Yet In Game It Cant Even Drop A Roe Deer.

grave python
fierce frost
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We don't have a class 1-3 gun and no good rifles for class 3-7, so they will probably release a weapon pack to fill the gap, no way they do what you suggested and miss on sales.

burnt crescent
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Bump. I want to see .223 become a serious choice to match the power it has in real life!

flat idol
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6.5mm is used for moose irl so I believe class 8 should stay, however it currently is a terrible option for moose in game.

karmic peak
burnt crescent
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You can certainly hunt deer with it, provided proper bullet selection and good shot placement. Even with coyotes, it has rather luckluster penetration in game.