#Team Comtress 2 Megathread - It's finally here
tight nexus
chilly nova
cracking is when i put my goldberg dll into my game files
clever creekBOT
eternal jungle
Erm isnt goldberg bad™
Idk someone linked an article about it being bad
I didnt read tbh
chilly nova
didnt rebase i bet
chilly nova
shell temple
what about it?
chilly nova
oh did it not link to the file
rip
the pr just has a copy of (presumably the goldberg) steamclient
as a compiled library
wheat herald
team comtress 2 crack 
chilly nova
anyways i dont really see the point of it
if you want to run tc2 without steam then you can just copy in the goldberg dlls
no need to have it in the tc2 repo
shell temple
oh did it not link to the file
yeah but i saw the file, just was confused what was of note
chilly nova
you can go ahead and merge 👍
please also merge the pr where i add myself to the powerplay list
coming soon™️ to a repo near you
wheat herald
https://github.com/mastercomfig/tc2/pull/30/files#diff-019d9d3c2b54745f20f982974...
😭
bro is NOT helping with the stereotype
chilly nova
???
chilly nova
um how is sideloading piracy
wheat herald
team comtress 2 no steam crack
is this like not how most cracks work you just have a steam emulator
clever creekBOT
chilly nova
me when i "crack" a free to play multiplayer game
wheat herald
<:steamhapp:1133083341726421033> medigun PRs on the SDK repo now
"I'm not sure there is a proper way to fix that caveat" couldnt you just network the vaccinator noises
just have the server play it bro
just turn it off have the server do it
rich moat
should clarify i guess, proper way without changing current intended behavior
dusky sapphire
bro is NOT helping with the stereotype
ur talking like its a bad thing
more countries should pirate
jaunty fractal
https://github.com/mastercomfig/tc2/pull/30/files#diff-019d9d3c2b54745f20f982974...
I wonder if he succeeded with his plan
worst case scenario computers are 32 bit
wheat herald
should clarify i guess, proper way without changing current intended behavior
how would it change current intended behavior
sour sedge
https://github.com/mastercomfig/tc2/pull/30/files#diff-019d9d3c2b54745f20f982974...
I'd reject and close. It's easy to install Goldberg and I'm pretty sure you don't need to be online on steam to use the sdk either
fossil vault
Seems pretty.."niche" as well to add something like this
fossil vault
this is more spooky than the normal cosmetic
vernal hull
hopefully they get merged (for my ears sake)
But thats the best part it makes it feel insane
ruby arrow
GOOD MORNING TEAM COMTRESS 2
rich moat
I suppose this probably would be a question better suited to the huds.tf discord (if i ever joined it) but thoughts on a change like this?
essentially instead of the maxhealth value getting wiped when you are at maxhealth - 5 or above, it simply hides the panel which shows it, allowing custom huds to always show the max health value if they want by simply using a different panel that reads the same variable, while keeping vanilla hud behavior the same. (in theory, haven't tested it yet)
My main but probably unnecessary concern is that any huds that for some reason change the panel name of the max health currently even though there is no reason to would be opted into this change automatically
Ideally I think that preferably every single instance of a variable in VGUI should always be accurate, and then whether or not it is visible should be up to an animation, or in some cases, direct code, but doing so would probably require a pretty sizable overhaul of not just the code but also the default hud
not to mention requiring like every single custom hud to be updated to support it
so I think thats out of the question
wheat herald
yeah i feel like all hud developers would approve of this but at the same time barely any huds use the max health in the first place because it's easy to just remember
rich moat
I'm also not sure the performance cost of animation vs directly changing visibility in code
rich moat
yeah i feel like all hud developers would approve of this but at the same time b...
yeah part of the reason I made the change is that for my custom hud i want it visible since its supposed to emulate the hud from a different game
just in general I don't think a massive overhaul of how the hud works is warranted without a hud version change, and even then I just think thats silly and I don't think valve would implement it
at the very least I feel like I'd need to add back compat for the current version out of obligation but that would add so much bloat and i really don't think valve would implement that
rich moat
how exactly can you get the mod_tf custom folder to work?
I've tried messing with gameinfo.txt but its not loading anything
eternal jungle
Idk same issue for me
changing it to game+mod+custom_mod still nothing
it loads custom stuff from tf2 if you uncomment that though
the |appid_440|
chilly nova
what if you use the sdk appid?
eternal jungle
maybe gameinfo_path would work?
I doubt sdk appid would
huh neither seem to work
when you have the mod_tf in sourcemods folder anyways
tbh the searchpaths are really jank in the sdk
launch options are weird too
can't get -novid working when launching through steam
wheat herald
how exactly can you get the mod_tf custom folder to work?
is this for tf or tc2
chilly nova
mod_tf, so the sdk
ohmygod the \ bind suuuucks
and it doesn't work on the main menu
😭
eternal jungle
is this for tf or tc2
I mean it should be the same for either right
just loading stuff from a custom folder for any game in sourcemods folder
wheat herald
ohmygod the `\` bind suuuucks
?
eternal jungle
console bind was changed to backslash :/
wheat herald
I mean it should be the same for either right
no it's fixed in tc2 and tc2 has a different ui version
wheat herald
console bind was changed to backslash :/
wtf who did that when
eternal jungle
idk
chilly nova
-1!?
eternal jungle
huh neither seem to work
Wait I might be stupid
like really stupid
I have mod_tf in multiple locations and I put my custom folder in the wrong one
I blame windows quick access
|gameinfo_path| works
|gameinfo_path|custom/*
chilly nova
gameinfo has a custom folder setup already though doesn't it
eternal jungle
by default it's mod_tf/custom/*
I'll check if that works since i check it wrong the first time
chilly nova
oh i think coms changed it lemme check sdk2013
eternal jungle
okay yeah that doesn't work when you have it in steamapps/sourcemods
but |gameinfo_path| does
eternal jungle
|gameinfo_path|custom/*
@rich moat
rich moat
I swear i tried that
rich moat
but i'll try again i guess
chilly nova
what custom content are you trying to load
wheat herald
have you tried uncommenting
chilly nova
uncommenting what
wheat herald
uncommenting what
i think in the sdk the custom path is commented out by default maybe they missed that
chilly nova
for the tf2 custom folder it is
eternal jungle
the mod_tf is uncommented by default but the default thing doesn't work if you have the game in steamapps/sourcemods and launch through steam
at least for me
I guess it's probably looking in the sdk2013 folder for it
I'll test
yep that's where it looks
and searchpaths only actually get added if they exist, so nothing was being added to path in game
unless files are actually there
chilly nova
what happens if you use the launcher app
eternal jungle
probably works correctly
I guess seems like it still doens't
even using launcher exe
I don't know why though
it seems like that should work
rich moat
|gameinfo_path|custom/*
yeah this works, i thought i had done that but instead i did |gameinfo_path|mod_tf/custom/* like a fool
max health visible even when above max health- 5
umbral siren
<:steamhapp:1133083341726421033>
why is he looking at me like that
what did i do wrong
rich moat
gave him 430 extra health
umbral siren
scouts when engineers "steal" their health packs
chilly nova
engineers when i steal their ammo packs
wheat herald
i should play scout and follow friendly engineers constantly shooting my scattergun and running ahead of them to steal their ammo packs
umbral siren
knowing you, you already do that
solemn fossil
I'm currently drafting a PR to TC2 to add a convar to fix the extended melee range
solemn fossil
Made a PR
This time its under a ConVar
tf_demoextendedrangefix
So a server can opt into the behavior
Could even make it a hidden weapon attribute
To enable the behavior
strong remnant
@solemn fossil will it be enabled by default
would like to see that if it is possible
solemn fossil
<@941433256010727484> will it be enabled by default
No
To preserve the balance
Servers can optionally enable it
flat perch
you need to update source 2013 multiplayer to its latest version
it wont work with the previous2021 build
wheat herald
Oh
sour sedge
Coms can I add deployable shield walls to engie
rich moat
<-- you
sour sedge
They'll probably behave more like a bullet trajectory disrupter while active, so bullets still "penetrate" but they get sent in a random direction afterwards
sour sedge
<:mcginnis:1290543788149702656> <-- you
Shut up
rich moat
lol sorry
sour sedge
McGinnis is a pretty good evolution over engie though
clever creekBOT
sour sedge
Pay for my dinner and I'll consider it
rich moat
oof, i'm a bit short
sour sedge
Yeah we know you're only 5'5
rich moat
<-- me
rich moat
Yeah we know you're only 5'5
erm actually 5'6
sour sedge
Yeah sorry typo
wheat herald
<:ivy:1290545192151023676> <-- me
umbral siren
<:mcginnis:1290543788149702656> <-- you
she's cute
wheat herald
will there ever be another tc2 playtest? 
eternal jungle
Never
wheat herald
chilly nova
charred shadow
um i kinda eated it sorry
chilly nova
how did it taste
wheat herald
oh okay i missed that
strong remnant
will there ever be another tc2 playtest? <:steamsad:1277048467948306484>
no that was the last playtest ever for this project
pack up everyone we are leaving
spark birch
No, Mastercoms must sacrifice their physical, mental and emotional wellbeing on the altar of TF2 development hell.
wheat herald
no dont even joke about that
tight nexus
this code works, but not for the pistol smg etc
shell temple
fr fr
tight nexus
and idk why do they have different reload conditions
shell temple
check idle time
shell temple
yeah
chilly nova
what's actually stopping sixense from being used
is it just that there's no 64bit library for it
you could probably reimplement it with some work
chilly nova
is it just that there's no 64bit library for it
actually there is but it's part of the separate sixense sdk on steam
wheat herald
ok so what if we ripped out all of the sixense drivers and put wii remote drivers in their place
tight nexus
works now for all weapons
high wigeonBOT
@tight nexus has leveled up! (26 ➜ 27)
tight nexus
why is all dragon's fury code in client_dll? shouldn't it be in game_dll?
tight nexus
because of the endif?
chilly nova
yes
tight nexus
but the client_dll closes with endif too
chilly nova
yeah
virtual void Precache(); will only be compiled in if CLIENT_DLL is not defined
this is shared code
shell temple
why is all dragon's fury code in client_dll? shouldn't it be in game_dll?
that means its shared
oh lol
chilly nova
it took me far too long to realize what they were asking 😭
eternal jungle
Is the confusion about how the preprocessor definitions and directives work or is it something else?
tight nexus
Yeah ...?
chilly nova
ok great lol
tight nexus
I mean yeah it's shared but i just don't know where to put my new variable
Im just doing trial and error
eternal jungle
If you want it used in both the client and server put it outside of any ifdefs for CLIENT_DLL or GAME_DLL
eternal jungle
Maybe it stems from ancient singleplayer games or dedicated servers or something idk
chilly nova
erm
eternal jungle
#if defined(SERVER_DLL) || defined(CLIENT_DLL) || defined(GAME_DLL)
if (!(seqdesc.flags & STUDIO_ACTIVITY))
{
// AssertMsg2( false, "Sequence %d on studiohdr %s didn't have its activity initialized!", i, pstudiohdr->pszName() );
SetActivityForSequence( pstudiohdr, i );
}
#endif```Idk
chilly nova
oh yeah unrelated fun fact: goldsrc ships with DWARF debug symbols on linux
types and all
tight nexus
why is all dragon's fury code in client_dll? shouldn't it be in game_dll?
my variable caninspect is shared, i suppose, but it won't compile
chilly nova
what compiler error does it give you?
chilly nova
your CanInspect method is not implemented on the server
tight nexus
i think ctap may be broken
umbral siren
i think ctap may be broken
is that tf2?
tight nexus
tc2
round coyote
i think ctap may be broken
I have no idea what you are doing.
rose yoke
would cylinder bounding boxes affect rocket jumps in any meaningful way?
rose yoke
intradasting
wheat herald
cyllindar hitboxes would just be a good thing but that's like engine level stuff that could never be added
rose yoke
engine level stuff that could never be added
screaming and crying
clever creekBOT
chilly nova
cyllindar hitboxes would just be a good thing but that's like engine level stuff...
simply hook the engine functions
eternal jungle
Fiendhook
wheat herald
what if you reflect with the dragons fury the recharge rate is reduced so it follows the similar theme of awarding accuracy
to make the reflect actually useful instead of the enemies being able to just infinitely spam at you whether you hit a reflect or not
airblast is so cool why does every single non stock pyro primary have to nerf it in some way
rich moat
because its too good
:( i wish we got an airblast focused primary
I know there were some tests with different airblast types
like a charged one that iirc would also push you back so you could jump with it
wheat herald
because its too good
wdym nobody uses the dragons fury
rich moat
no i meant airblast is too good
but also yeah df kinda is too good, source: i use it a lot
rich moat
dragon's furry
wheat herald
#tc2-comtress message
spark birch
No access 🐲
rose yoke
Fiendhook
is fiendhook real or is it a meme im confusd
i will Bounce with Joy and horray if cylinder bounding boxes became a thing
rose yoke
🫡
chilly nova
is fiendhook real or is it a meme im confusd
a real meme
sour sedge
cyllindar hitboxes would just be a good thing but that's like engine level stuff...
Except for the fact all the movement code isn't designed for them
And they use several techniques specific to cuboid bounding boxes
sour sedge
wdym nobody uses the dragons fury
Ineptitude then it's objectively the best
sour sedge
And they use several techniques specific to cuboid bounding boxes
Would need to rework most of the player collision handling code
And at that point you might as well go with the objectively superior capsule
chilly nova
i think we should make bounding boxes into pyramids
eternal jungle
:trollfig: emoji was created specifically for you
vernal hull
pyramids are pyra mid
tight nexus
i redownloaded tc2 and this appears when compiled
chilly nova
you compiled a debug build, you need to build it in release mode
clever creekBOT
tight nexus
huh
chilly nova
oh wait did you download a build or compile it
chilly nova
yeah you need to use release mode
tight nexus
and also it compilers way faster
tight nexus
yeah you need to use release mode
don't know what you are talking about
wheat herald
you need to use the release build configuration instead of the default debug configuration
tight nexus
i found a bug
eternal jungle
What the sigma
shell temple
yeah, known issue
if you can find a case besides on spawn then it'd be nice to see those as well
stray laurel
Hello, should I report bugs and make suggestions for TC2 here, or is it better to post it on GitHub?
shell temple
whatever is easiest for you
ultimately what's important is getting the feedback out there
as long as im able to see it, then it's okay by me!
no point in putting obstacles
stray laurel
Okay, thanks. Also, will TC2 ever touch material files and models? And if the answer is yes, then to what extent? Will it be limited to only fixing some oversights, or it will also include some improvements and more personal changes?
sage schooner
Scout pant fix when
tight nexus
if you can find a case besides on spawn then it'd be nice to see those as well
after changing classes
also this
wheat herald
can you enable ofast
fossil vault
is there a server build yet?
shell temple
<@&1060283751701172314> What would you be interested in seeing next for TC2's Spring Cleaning update?
gray skiff
Fixes and Performance improvements as many as possible
I want to play TF2 MAX everything at 165 hz at all times
Pretty much everything you listed in you mock Spring Cleaning update page
next tiger
Groundwork for TF Bot improvements similar to TF2 Bot Overhaul? Longshot, I know, but it'd be neat to see
gray skiff
Thouhgh I would love if you could fix the back scatter not being able to mini crit players that are looking straight up or down
gray skiff
Groundwork for TF Bot improvements similar to TF2 Bot Overhaul? Longshot, I know...
Implementation of its mission would be great for onboarding players to TF2
next tiger
I'd love to see more work done to Training mode too, sort of like the leaks
next tiger
I'd be nice if training actually taught you anything about how to play the game lol
Could also include a practice option that would take you to tr_walkway or a similar map
raw orchid
If we're doing an extensive overhaul, a better Walkway would be a nice inclusion. One that's not all hacky about making the bots move and such.
next tiger
There is tr_walkway_h1 which uses vscript for the bot movement, but the bots tend to get stuck in spawn (also its not maintained)
wheat herald
<@&1060283751701172314> What would you be interested in seeing next for TC2's Sp...
tons of fixes and features to help hud develoeorps
barren glacier
Are the default settings going to be updated
next tiger
Do we already use Ultimate Visual Fix? That would be a nice QoL change if not
chilly nova
please please please undo that console bind change
storm cargo
Ooh a default setting update would be nice, set fov to 90, enable hit and kill sounds, enable medic auto call when people are at 25% health, etc.
storm cargo
Do we already use Ultimate Visual Fix? That would be a nice QoL change if not
It was in the swiper build of tc2.
barren glacier
Maybe have the medi gun one-click targets by default
Would a revamp of tf2's option menu be feasible or is that out of scope for a spring cleaning update? Using TF2c as a example
next tiger
Let me fire the Classic while falling or floating in water. If the huntsman gets to do it, I don't see why the Classic shouldn't be able to too
This has made me irrationally frustrated for years
chilly nova
please please please undo that console bind change
or actually, fixing the bind to work on the main menu
delicate schooner
I want to play TF2 MAX everything at 165 hz at all times
This
eternal jungle
I want to play TF2 MAX everything at 165 hz at all times
You already can just buy a fast computer 
delicate schooner
You already can just buy a fast computer <:trollfig:938154442484777111>
I have a fast computer
R7 3700x, RTX 3070 OC, 32 Gb RAM dual channel
eternal jungle
3700x is mid unfortunately
tranquil mirage
how much can you do for performance? because we don't have access to the engine itself
dusky sapphire
i feel like base tc2 already does a ton for performance and could do a bit more even
runs great
midnight surge
<@&1060283751701172314> What would you be interested in seeing next for TC2's Sp...
idk what kind of changes we're talking but a "disable hats" option would be nice
stone saddle
R7 3700x, RTX 3070 OC, 32 Gb RAM dual channel
I have a 1080ti and hit 165 fps consistently
Although I do have a 7700x which might matter more
eternal jungle
It does
tight nexus
please please please undo that console bind change
coms revert pls
this is not what i wanted
delicate schooner
I do plan to upgrade my 3700x to 9800x3d
But then I will probably not upgrade to another CPU
I just new mobo, CPU and RAM.
And that will be around 900-1000€
young osprey
I remember pre-SDK TC2 having a version of the tf2 ultimate visual fix pack integrated onto it, this mod has long since been improved and I would really enjoy seeing it back.
Also, was the Caber not being mini-crited by Demo's sheilds fixed yet?
stray laurel
<@&1060283751701172314> What would you be interested in seeing next for TC2's Sp...
Since fix for botkiller weapons was added, would be great to see these fixed too
wheat herald
i have never had this issue your gpu has schizophrenia im afraid
royal ravine
<@&1060283751701172314> What would you be interested in seeing next for TC2's Sp...
- Update DXVK to the latest stable release for every OS that can use DXVK (Windows, Linux, etc.). Currently, the newest stable DXVK version is 2.5.3
- Allow players to upgrade and downgrade DXVK themselves, and do the same with other APIs and translation layers if DXVK isn't the only one that can be changed, without getting VAC banned or any other kind of ban, and without causing TC2 to break, crash, glitch, etc.
- Let Windows users choose between DX9, the DXVK version that comes with TC2 by default, and the DXVK version that the user has installed (that's at least 3 choices), while in the game's settings menu (not necessarily while in a map, but if it works, it would be a handy feature)
- Let Linux/macOS users do the same with DXVK and whatever other APIs and translation layers that TC2 could use on Linux/macOS
wheat herald
nah
spark birch
nah
Curious, are you always contrarian or do you just find it fun to disagree with everyone?
spark birch
Ah, it's knowledgeable sarcasm. My mistake.
wheat herald
the sdk doesnt even support macos
ruby arrow
- Update DXVK to the latest stable release for every OS that can use DXVK (Wind...
TF2's dxvk version can be changed by just chaning the dll or so
However, for some reason
I don't think tf2 works with recent versions of DXVK
MacOS does not support DXVK 2.0 or later due to DXVK 2.0 required Vulkan 1.3
MoltenVK only implements Vulkan 1.2 the last I checked
Also, was the latest version of the source sdk released for mac?
I don't think so
So macos support is reliant upon valve
There is no user control over the game engine
spark birch
<@&1060283751701172314> What would you be interested in seeing next for TC2's Sp...
The ten billion bugs relating to Spy. Including but not limited to this one. Please? https://youtu.be/2t0PLoPGcTA
You can inspect disguised cloaked spies. Because god forbid Spy uses his disguises. If spawn wallhacks don't get you, this will.
gleaming radish
any place to discuss future balance changes for the planned beta release?
eternal jungle
You could discuss it here
gleaming radish
Can i read up anywhere what mcoms' main goal for the balance changes are? Is it just about throwing things on the wall or is there any larger philosophy behind it?
eternal jungle
#announcements📰 message
I think that's all that has really been announced about it
sage schooner
Would it be theoretically possible to have a seprate steam inventory for a tf2 mod? Could then get then get the items from both tf2 inv and the mod one, and only the mod inv would have write permission
spark birch
Would it be theoretically possible to have a seprate steam inventory for a tf2 m...
Most certainly possible yes, though I'd believe you'd have to be careful with it.
chilly nova
Is it? I don't think mods have access to the inventory APIs
shell temple
mods dont get economy or workshop features
eternal jungle
not even for their own steam app?
shell temple
a steam app ID != game app
eternal jungle
:(
shell temple
shell temple
Can i read up anywhere what mcoms' main goal for the balance changes are? Is it ...
The balance philosophy is making each class/item more fun and interesting, and viable in a larger set of circumstances, while not homogenizing the game and making sure we keep each class to their role.
In some cases this will be extending the capabilities of the class but keeping the traditional base kit the same, so players can augment the power level of their class by taking advantage of the new available functions, but players used to the traditional game loop don't have to change. Total class reworks which change playstyles entirely isn't fun to anyone who has been playing the game. Instead, we want to reward players for mastery and give them more mechanics to have in their toolbelt.
On the other side of things, adding counterplay and interesting decisions to items/classes, while not feeling like a set of hard counters (rock paper scissors) is extremely important as well. There's a number of interactions in the game (primarily from unlocks) that may feel a bit sour to enemies because of this, so these will be getting some form of rework or change.
Now, some changes in TC2, especially after we release Spring Cleaning and have a separate beta branch, will be entirely for experimentation/learning purposes and not actual intended balance changes (as explained in the announcement linked above). Sometimes, you just need to see how certain factors affect play in a game to better understand it. Pushing these limits and playing around with them will help me better designer for anything I want to do in the future for TF2. Sometimes it's a matter of retreading old ground and realizing why certain things were done by Valve, or trying something entirely crazy to see the bounds of gameplay in TF2.
But back to serious balance discussions, I'm not here to be stupid. I'm here to seriously reshape TF2 into something much grander, without being timid about new mechanics. I want the mystical feeling back to balance updates, where things felt new and profound, rather than what the community has seemingly devolved into, with just very basic number tweaks and uninspired mechanics. Other games get changes like this all the time, to give players more tools and add a sense of whimsy to learning how to deal with the changes. This contributes a healthier metagame. Ultimately, I want to balance TF2 like how Valve would, given a modern perspective that they have now and revisiting TF2 as a whole, rather through the increasingly more conservative changes we got up till Blue Moon.
gleaming radish
Ah thank you, that is quite detailed
chilly nova
The balance philosophy is making each class/item more fun and interesting, and v...
you should pin this
gleaming radish
So what I'm getting from the first paragraph is that you aim to convert the specialist classes into generalists while retaining the core design principles/ ideas of each class?
and I definitely agree that "the community has seemingly devolved into [...] very basic number tweaks and uninspired mechanics"
gleaming radish
The balance philosophy is making each class/item more fun and interesting, and v...
I'm guessing that gamemode/map balance has little priority or are you also looking in to that?
shell temple
I'm guessing that gamemode/map balance has little priority or are you also looki...
That feels a bit more solid but maybe problems will reveal themselves as we go on
shell temple
So what I'm getting from the first paragraph is that you aim to convert the spec...
Yes
spark birch
Thinking about it, that does bring up a new question. Considering the scope of Team Comtress, including the vast amount of feedback that will start to grow. Wouldn't it be better to have it's own dedicated Discord Server? Or other platform/Forum? With so many questions being asked and experimental changes, might get a bit too much for this server alone.
Though that does come with it's own issues like upkeep and juggling servers.
clever creekBOT
eternal jungle
So true haiku bot
spark birch
Thank you HaikuBot
gleaming radish
Yes
Well that has been long overdue, I'm glad somebody is finally doing it after a decade of the community identifying and discussing this problem. IIRC b4nny tried to get that ball rolling with valve (with the Dragon's Fury and the Jetpack for example) but we all know that they had little motivation, a lack of getting creative and suffered from major dev burnout in general. I'll definitely be interested in what you come up with since it's rare for somebody to have both the technical know-how and the passion/creativity to think a little bigger balance-wise
shell temple
Thinking about it, that does bring up a new question. Considering the scope of T...
I don't see a reason to add anything more than a channel category for Team Comtress channels, like was done back in the day. I think Discord servers are a community hub, and separating them means we will have split offtopic/general chats.
Oh also, one thing I forgot to mention, I am super against the loadout system in TF2, I think it was a bad idea. So my balance changes are not really going to be centered around adding new unlocks or subclasses, just because of my aversion to them as a designer. That doesn't mean I want to change anything about the existing system, and the unlocks that are in the game will stay, they're a necessary evil to continue the identity of the game that has been created. I will balance unlocks with the original philosophy, though. Just though I'd note that I will tend to not add more.
I am much more in favor of adding things to the base kit.
gleaming radish
The unlocks bloat the game anyway. It was unwise of valve to add so many items which lack any real purpose. They just exist to fill backpack space
Ideally you reach a point where every unlock actually serves a unique and useful purpose
shell temple
I won't write a full response to why I am against loadouts, but here's a laundry list of points that I can elaborate on if asked:
- Class readability
- Little opportunity for artists
- Opportunity costs
- Perceived need for tradeoffs/downsides
- Inaccessibility to new players
- Loadout permutations (interconnected interactions between items)
- Lack of cohesive set or kit (individual items)
- Not everything is a niche
shell temple
Ideally you reach a point where every unlock actually serves a unique and useful...
Yeah, that's the goal. I'm okay with being given that design problem.
clever creekBOT
shell temple
I won't write a full response to why I am against loadouts, but here's a laundry...
I know some people like these things. For example, people like how opaque class abilities are, since it supposedly "adds decisions" for people who don't know what item you have equipped. But this isn't true, and Valve seems to agree, adding "must be deployed" conditions to most of the unlock stats. But some remain, like Dead Ringer. People will say, oh, it's interesting because you don't know if the Spy has DR or not! But this is a surface level observation. What actually happens is people just act as conservatively as possible to the bounds of their enemy's abilities. In this example, people usually just act like EVERY spy has a Dead Ringer, and Spy check a little bit after the Spy dies. This isn't interesting, it's just a waste of time.
I know people like there being opportunity costs. You can't have one item if you equip another. It adds choice/tradeoff even outside of the stats of each item. But that isn't interesting enough on its own, and I think the cost of missing out on cool class abilities because you can only equip one, is much more damaging than the "decision" of equipping one over another. It also makes balancing a nightmare, because now you can't really give a class a "fix" to their identity without making the the unlock.
gleaming radish
Yeah I definitely agree, balance took a backseat to Valve experimenting & pioneering micro-transactions and focusing on some sort of progression by unlocking all the items over time
shell temple
I mean, I won't really speculate on the exact motivations that Valve had, but I will say they were obviously very inexperienced in this whole live service thing, and were making it up as they went. Their future live service titles CLEARLY learn from the mistakes of TF2. For TF2, it was too late to save seemingly.
gleaming radish
I know some people _like_ these things. For example, people _like_ how opaque cl...
Even with the base kit, in my opinion you'll need to get a bit creative and ambitious with what you do with Spy
spark birch
Incentivising people to play spy as an actual spy and not diet scout is a massive yes from me.
shell temple
I think the backstab and cloak mechanics can't be the only thing Spy does.
It should be an option, but it should be a mechanic of opportunity, rather than a requirement.
gleaming radish
hard agree
shell temple
If you have the opportunity to get a stab, you should be able to act on it and punish an enemy for being unaware.
The current backstab/cloak limitations I think are a bit outdated for the current playerbase and the general experience of the FPS crowd.
So we can improve the opportunity threshold to punish slighter unawareness, but there is always going to be a fundamental flaw in that part of Spy
Being that, Spy being completely invisible and able to instantly kill anyone, is way too strong to be 100% of Spy
gleaming radish
The Sapper only having a use against an enemy Engineer has almost the exact same problem, a whole weapon slot used to counter one class and one class alone is a waste
shell temple
There will always have to be limitations on that mechanic unfortunately, so we need to give Spy more options
gleaming radish
I think the backstab and cloak mechanics can't be the only thing Spy does.
One way to solve this would be to push Spy more into a supportive role
shell temple
I think Spy players are looking for an assassin role still
There's ways to balance assassin classes that are team oriented, and thus can fall into support
One common way is enemy marking
gleaming radish
yup
Shared reveal of approximate enemy position, not going full wall-hacks but close
chilly nova
I think giving spy more options to trick people would be interesting but im not sure how fun or feasible it would be
gleaming radish
You could even give him a smoke to block line of sights and help with area control if you really want to get creative
shell temple
Oh also, one thing I forgot to mention, I am super against the loadout system in...
Also another clarification: that isn't to say there won't ever be new unlocks, some new unlocks are sometimes required to balance other unlocks (for example what Valve did with 2nd banana kinda)
gleaming radish
I think giving spy more options to trick people would be interesting but im not ...
Apex Legends has an interesting take on this with Mirage's decoys
clever creekBOT
shell temple
Yeah Spy could be way more interesting as a class
gleaming radish
IIRC somebody once made a plugin for Spy to have decoys and uploaded it on youtube
gleaming radish
Yeah Spy could be way more interesting as a class
reminds me of when valve experimented with building disguises
clever creekBOT
raw orchid
What might be interesting is an alternative to the sapper that, when deployed, enables player outlines on the enemy team within a certain radius of the device.
gleaming radish
Sure, anything that adds to Spy is good in my book but I agree with mcoms that adding a mechanic to remove one is a zero sum game when you're trying to improve the class as a whole
spark birch
I may be slightly bias against "Gunspy" but there is just so much bugginess and jank for spies that try to use cloak and the disguise kit, that even the simplist of changes to fix them would be a significant buff by itself, let alone changing other parts of the kit for the better.
shell temple
I always imagine gunspy as a close range assassin, a backup to the stab which takes more than one hit, but is a bit more reliable in case the stab fails or is unavailable
but ultimately what's good at close range is also good at medium range
spark birch
One thing I wish Spy did have was some method of verticle mobility, since so many maps restrict their flank routes by requiring it, and there are many situations where it's unfair. For example, engineer sentry jumping to a spot Spy can't reach then camping up there, the wise ones not building a teleporter. Or otherwise blocking the single route in with a dispenser and 100% denying Spy.
spark birch
I've said it before, but I believe it's already been shot down. Either way, anything that provides Spy with more creative solutions to stupid situations would be great.
raw orchid
Demo getting a Glock is just from racial stereotypes.
gleaming radish
Give spy a grapple?
That poses one more basic question though, are you laying any focus on class mobility in your quest to make more generalists? The dispenser backpack already kinda went in that direction
raw orchid
What might be interesting is an alternative to the sapper that, when deployed, e...
This could also just be a sapper alt mode. Looks enough like a radio it could also plausibly relaying information.
gleaming radish
Yeah that would be way better imo
tight nexus
i think spy should jump higher
because to be effective his gameplay relies somewhat in map geometry
gleaming radish
I think giving spy more options to trick people would be interesting but im not ...
spark birch
shell temple
That poses one more basic question though, are you laying any focus on class mob...
I mean, we all can admit that part of the reason why some classes are bad is they can't keep up with the pace/momentum of play. However, that doesn't mean giving every class a rocket jump or necessarily a mobility option. Some classes rely on positioning to create opportunities rather than raw mobility. There is a slight distinction there and one that I will use to direct any changes
tight nexus
because to be effective his gameplay relies somewhat in map geometry
and jumping higher would allow him to access more areas, like those common boxes can can't be jumped on with jumpcrouch
spark birch
A balance for that would be limiting how often that mobility can be used. Long wait time between usage so it can't be spammed, etc.
shell temple
i think tf2 isn't the game for cooldowns
any cooldowns in the game already are not thought out properly imo
in fact, valve removed cooldowns on a lot of weapons and made them damage based
spark birch
Don't know how a utility weapon could recharge without a cooldown unless it's one time use.
shell temple
but still, it's pretty obvious the tf2 developers realized how cool uber is, being the only ult in the game, and wanted to add more, but had no idea how the meter system should work
regarding recharge cooldowns, i mean, arguably, time is the only resource in anything
everything else is an abstraction for time
but abstractions can be interesting
gleaming radish
I mean, we all can admit that part of the reason why some classes are bad is the...
yeah definitely agree, though there are ways to combine positioning and mobility, demoknight is a good example of how you have to think a bit more about when you charge and where you go if you don't want to be caught with your pants down/ not being able to fight at range with your sword
shell temple
agree
storm cargo
Well that has been long overdue, I'm glad somebody is finally doing it after a d...
Makes sense, they've been devving for 19 years at that point. I would've burnt out severely after adding majors and developing for that long.
9 years for devving tf2 itself plus the 10 leading up to Jungle Inferno.
gleaming radish
Makes sense, they've been devving for 19 years at that point. I would've burnt o...
Also Valve has a new hero shooter, Deadlock
why work on the old stuff if you have a new shiny baby
storm cargo
Deadlock is severely different but ok I guess.
gleaming radish
TF2 would look way more like it if it were made today
spark birch
why work on the old stuff if you have a new shiny baby
The codebase is properly significantly less spaghetti.
raw orchid
TF2 would be worse for it, too.
gleaming radish
maybe
storm cargo
Yeah especially if it was still based on Mobas lol
shell temple
deadlock is literally tf2
raw orchid
FPS games aren't even allowed to be fun anymore.
shell temple
the buildings are just interactive control points
the troopers are the payload cart but more interesting
the spirit vessel is ctf/special delivery
gleaming radish
yeah i see it as well
shell temple
obviously its dota as well but valve always wanted to make tf2 into dota
bounty mode
robot destruction is literally a take on a MOBA.
reactor core is the base.
the several layers of base defense are towers and other hazards in a moba.
in fact, theres several tf2 classes/items in deadlock
gleaming radish
deadlock lowkey reminds me of mannpower mode as well
shell temple
for example they fixed the bison but in deadlock only
seven has the bison
it slows down when contacting an enemy
(im lifting that btw for tc2)
they fixed sniper and turned him into a goth lady who does damage over time and finishes off weakened targets
gleaming radish
also the MvM upgrades lol, tough that's shared with dota
shell temple
well its not total real goth but whatever no one cares about the distinction nowadays
yeah
tf2 devs always loved dota
gabe loves dota, valve as a whole just really loves dota
raw orchid
Instead of pushing TF2 towards a MOBA, what about pushing it more towards its roots instead? TFC/QWTF
storm cargo
I dont like mobas but I can respect it in a sense as long as you play em in moderation.
spark birch
No, we must force TF2 to be a comp shooter by removing almost everything that makes it TF2 and the fun.
storm cargo
We must force TF2 to stay the same.
raw orchid
Competitive is fun, though.
storm cargo
Cause tf2 fans dont deserve anything good
shell temple
competitive is literally not fun in the true sense of the word
its captivating, engaging, interesting
raw orchid
Sounds like someone's never played it.
shell temple
which i guess in a sense can be entertaining/fun for some people seeking that
storm cargo
Its a job. lol lmao.
shell temple
but in terms of whimsical fun, no, comp is the antithesis to that
storm cargo
Its a job. lol lmao.
its interesting til you actually participate
spark birch
Whoops wrong reply
storm cargo
lmao
spark birch
Competitive is fun, though.
At the cost of sacrificing many elements of base TF2?
raw orchid
Neither of the popular formats sacrifices elements.
shell temple
Sounds like someone's never played it.
i have though, and my statement isnt subjective based upon experience, its an objective analysis of the nature of play in a competitive format
spark birch
Neither of the popular formats sacrifices elements.
Riiiight. Because 6's doesn't exclude certain classes by it's very nature?
raw orchid
I've seen all 9 classes played at various points in 6s.
gleaming radish
Classes, Maps, Gamemodes
shell temple
lets not have the same discussion again
this has been done thousands of times
the competitive side just doesn't understand the context or premise of the casual side's argument
and they never will
raw orchid
Pretty sure all 9 came out in the i55 upper bracket finals alone.
shell temple
that's not point, again
comp players will never seem to understand the complaints people have
spark birch
I've seen all 9 classes played at various points in 6s.
You've seen the spy for one extremely specific pick then not touched again for the rest of the map. Yeah that sounds inclusive alright.
shell temple
by way of participating in comp, you are self selecting for certain perspectives that isolate yourself from any other context
raw orchid
The match in question is on YouTube. Both teams ran Spy.
shell temple
and thus, this discussion is entirely pointless
both sides will just talk past each other
and get nothing done
my philosophy for tc2's balance is give up on catering to comp. let comp be presented with design that the best of the best need to solve for the optimal metagame. what we can do is make good and fair mechanics with interesting decisions and opportunities for skill expression. but as it stands, competitive is a separate experience that is completely incompatible with casual play
they can do their own work on creating their own game
it has no bearing on the balance of the game
raw orchid
Neither does half the crap casuals love so dearly.
shell temple
i will take into account certain aspects of play in comp, that align with values that i believe to be core to tf2, and use that feedback
for example, feedback regarding momentum and pacing
but i wont be balancing stats for competitive play, just because for example engineer isn't played in comp, i shouldn't need to nerf the cow mangler more
raw orchid
But how does that fit in with staring at a sandwich for 5 hours while screaming at people for pushing the cart?
shell temple
your opinion is weak and irrelevant tbh
spark birch
But how does that fit in with staring at a sandwich for 5 hours while screaming ...
That is the spirt of TF2.
shell temple
you're strawmaning
raw orchid
See that person above.
gleaming radish
How does [thing that doesn't concern balance] concern balance?
shell temple
okay, but that person isn't balancing the game?
raw orchid
It's the casual experience.
shell temple
casual at its core, is chaos
but chaos that averages out to some productive level of output
that pootis sanvich heavy is a meat shield at the very least, or a distraction
same as the fresh install w m1 pyro who dies before lighting anyone
what's the distinction?
both have the same "impact"
but people like to moan about the friendly hoovy because?
because they hate fun and cant recognize the actual design of tf2
raw orchid
The fresh install isn't nearly as likely to infect the entire server and drag it into everyone being friendly and treating those who want to fight and play objectives the bad guy.
shell temple
the w m1 pyro is "trying" but gets the same amount done as the sanvich hoovy
spark birch
The fresh install isn't nearly as likely to infect the entire server and drag it...
This is bait. If the server goes friendly, that means enough players willing decided that together.
shell temple
The fresh install isn't nearly as likely to infect the entire server and drag it...
those moments are really special and cool, imo
and they happen in every game
raw orchid
It's not special or cool.
shell temple
apex, overwatch, dota, whatever
you will always see some clip of friendly behavior
and it's always sweet and special
spark birch
And it all suddenly ends when a phlog pyro kills everyone, then the game continues.
shell temple
usually through the universal mode of communication: crouching and jumping really fast and moving look position
storm cargo
it is special, and fucking funny when it happens, the psuedo conversations you make with the enemy.
shell temple
its not a problem with tf2 somehow
gleaming radish
It's not special or cool.
It is a direct result of TF2's animation style, voice acting and art style, those moments are a product of TF2's design
spark birch
It's part of TF2's DNA. It's certainly what people remember.
raw orchid
There's so much gameplay to explore. It's a waste to reduce the game to that.
storm cargo
like u accidently see the enemy spy and instead of killing em, you look back, then forwards, initiate high five, they high five, killbind.
shell temple
there shouldn't be a damage surge mechanic which kills people below a certain damage threshold
gleaming radish
There's so much gameplay to explore. It's a waste to reduce the game to that.
nobody wants to reduce the game to that lmao
shell temple
also, this isn't a huge occurrence
spark birch
There's so much gameplay to explore. It's a waste to reduce the game to that.
Reduce? That implies that that event is mutually exclusive to other situations.
shell temple
it happens like every so often
raw orchid
It's how casual is generally defined. The friendly.
raw orchid
Casual as used by the TF2 community.
spark birch
It's how casual is generally defined. The friendly.
You say I don't play comp whilst talking like you don't play casual. Ironic.
shell temple
all the wacky stuff happening that seem uncongruent but ends up capping dustbowl last
thats what makes tf2 fun
i can decide to do some dumb repetitive strat going through dustbowl stairs over and over and annoy the enemy with some stupid spy gimmick
and somehow that will contribute to us winning
some other person just loves rancho relaxo and collecting teleporter points
gleaming radish
and somehow that will contribute to us winning
using the sticky jumper to kamikaze to the payload cart to push it one inch per life
spark birch
This is of course also ignoring the half the team that isn't doing the opjective and only going for kills, only to then pubpush the moment the announcer says the game is about to end. All that completely seperate to friendlies.
shell temple
what has comp negatively done to the game
id say a good example is making the base jumper into a super bland and buggy weapon
gleaming radish
true
shell temple
because comp players thought it was annoying to shift your vertical too much
raw orchid
Is that really worse than calling someone a slur and telling them to off themselves for calling Medic down or for a push?
shell temple
who cares what's annoying, annoying to a comp player usually just means effective
wheat herald
can you remove friendlies from tf2
shell temple
Is that really worse than calling someone a slur and telling them to off themsel...
this is a super anecdotal thing but player behavior should be moderated through moderation not balance
gleaming radish
Is that really worse than calling someone a slur and telling them to off themsel...
whatever your trying to argue anymore, using a super individualistic personal experiences proves no point
raw orchid
It's the casual experience. The thing trying to be balanced around.
gleaming radish
that's completely detached from casual
spark birch
Is that really worse than calling someone a slur and telling them to off themsel...
How is this relevant to balance? You can do the exact same in comp.
storm cargo
I think seperating tc2 into a new discord server would be nice, also is the balance changes going to be seperated from tc2, as much as I would like something different, I am content with just vanilla tf2 with performance and qol.
shell temple
dont look at comp chat logs ...
gleaming radish
It's the casual experience. The thing trying to be balanced around.
you know how often people in competitive tend to call people slurs over simple mistakes?
raw orchid
Casual is that opposed to anything remotely serious.
shell temple
I think seperating tc2 into a new discord server would be nice, also is the bala...
no it wont, but again, what is vanilla tf2? why does the balance where valve it off at 2018 should be what is forever frozen?
whats the difference between that and 2015 tf2, or 2016 tf2, or 2012 tf2
the game must move forward
and again, im not looking to upset anyone
i think people are fine if changes are actually good
it's super hard though
and thats why people are against them
because the fail rate is so high
wheat herald
can you remove friendlies from tf2
make it so players who havent killed in 1 minute gets marked for death
spark birch
i think people are fine if changes are actually good
People aren't against changes, people are against changes that are found to be bad then not fixed for a decade.
gleaming radish
valve could've tried way harder to be fair
shell temple
and I'm aiming to be way more communicative, responsive and responsible
wheat herald
make it so players who havent killed in 1 minute gets marked for death
this would punish both friendlies and bad players for playing the game
clever creekBOT
raw orchid
I mean, the game's balance feels like it's in a pretty decent state as it is. I don't think it needs major shake ups.
gleaming radish
TF2 is so extremely flawed
wheat herald
nerf the bison
shell temple
for anyone who isnt in the mainstream, its absolutely awful
mainstream being popular weapons and classes
gleaming radish
you can enjoy alomst 20 years of analysis and discussion on why TF2's balance is far from good
raw orchid
If you're not trying to make a moba, it's all pretty well smoothed off without major flaws balance-wise.
shell temple
we've just learned to accept the flaws
not really
jarate and mad milk are flawed
the meters system is pretty flawed and has exploits for the soldier banners
gleaming radish
If you're not trying to make a moba, it's all pretty well smoothed off without m...
if that were true, why can't you play 2 medics or 2 demomen in 6s?
wheat herald
we need a way to load our own patches on top the item schema from the internet IMO
shell temple
i want to do that at some point, no worries
raw orchid
Exploits aren't really a balance issue, though.
shell temple
the meters system is pretty flawed and has exploits for the soldier banners
medic is a pretty boring class, medic mains like him but its pretty much an odd one out for anyone else
gleaming radish
OW did a solid job with making support classes more fun and TF2 chose to ignore all of it lol
shell temple
Exploits aren't really a balance issue, though.
you don't know what im referring to. the rage meter is different values for conch and the other banners, and you can switch banners and keep the rage status while filling up the smaller conch meter. this suggests a fundamental flaw in the thinking for how meters function
its not about the exploit abuse or its consequences
its the basic premise that the systems allow for the exploit, its a gap in thinking
raw orchid
Sounds more like a bug than a balance issue.
shell temple
yes that specific issue can be patched but it raises serious questions about "what is a meter?"
also theres some bugs which are balance issues
for example spy pvs
sound pvs in general imo
theres also issues with several of scouts unlocks
raw orchid
"What is a meter?" sounds more philosophical than the practicalities of how the items actually function.
shell temple
design is often philosophical
wheat herald
the conch and the buff banner need stats as strong as the batalian's sentry resistance added to them
shell temple
and im realizing i should give up this discussion, unfortunately i dont see this as productive
shell temple
the conch and the buff banner need stats as strong as the batalian's sentry resi...
maybe
wheat herald
you could also just remove the sentry resistence but that's like way less fun than figuring out how to buff everything around it imo
raw orchid
I'm speaking in terms of the practicality of all the weapons and classes in the game rather than anything high level.
raw orchid
That's not even the definition of practical I was talking about.
raw orchid
In practice kind of practical.
wheat herald
i think balance changes are really cool you should keep testing them out
shell temple
not sure what that means sorry
raw orchid
Timmy Fresh Install isn't thinking "What is a meter?" when playing the game.
raw orchid
Players playing as players rather than designers out in the philosophical weeds.
gleaming radish
balance rage bait
spark birch
and im realizing i should give up this discussion, unfortunately i dont see this...
You have a clear and strong understanding of TF2. I wouldn't worry about it. Let the changes you make, the experiments and the results of that speak for you.
shell temple
im sorry, im going to stop responding to you steamworks
raw orchid
Just because someone speaks from a player perspective rather than a designer? It's like having a discussion with regular words instead of getting it on with a philosopher and getting way out there about the definition of "the".
shell temple
youre feigning the premise of your argument
you argued to me about my perspective
this reframing is absolutely incorrect
raw orchid
My talk about practical was like the regular words.
shell temple
you can totally speak about your experience, everyone can, but im not sure we can have anyone dictate how i should interpret or interact with things besides surface level ground rules
wheat herald
do you agree that engineer is just kinda inherently unfun or at least inherently less fun than other classes from like a core design perspective?
shell temple
my process for designing and understanding things has no bearing on anyones feedback
shell temple
do you agree that engineer is just kinda inherently unfun or at least inherently...
idk i dont think i agree
i think a lot of people wanna log on after an exhausting day of work and watch their buildings do the work
but that doesnt mean engineer cant also be expanded to include higher forms of expression for those who desire it
it just can't come at the cost of those players who already have fun
clever creekBOT
raw orchid
From Engie With Love shows a more active Engineer type.
wheat herald
but that doesnt mean engineer cant also be expanded to include higher forms of e...
for me it's not as much as an expression thing but more of a zoning thing. it's basically impossible to get your sentry and other buildings into a sweet spot where they are both effective and doing stuff but also not getting destroyed instantly and then you have to do the multi minute process of building them back up again
shell temple
yeah the attachment engineers inherently feel to their buildings must be designed away
deadlock solved this by allowing you to place unlimited sentries
but im not sure if it works in tf2
wheat herald
yeah the attachment engineers inherently feel to their buildings must be designe...
how do you plan on doing that while still making it balanced while still making engineers feel like their buildings are a powerful tool rather than a sidegrade
wheat herald
oke
gleaming radish
it would probably go in a mini sentry direction, lower autonomous build time, less health, less metal cost, etc. You can get more creative with farther build range/ throwable buildables, having the sentry focus on targets that you shoot so the sentry supports you instead of you supporting the sentry. But that doesn't solve all of Engineers problems on it's own, Dispenser Backpack helps quite a bit in addition to that
One thing I have been begging for for Engy is allowing the Teleporter Entrance to be built in spawn
That would remove the whole Spy/Engy interaction where a Spy constantly takes a pilgrimage to your base to destroy the entrance
gleaming radish
i guess? except that Engy would support his team more than torbjörn, whether it be through a dispenser backpack and/or mobility support with the tele
shell temple
One thing I have been begging for for Engy is allowing the Teleporter Entrance t...
i dont like that, because it forces the only vulnerable spot to the be the exit, which can be more heavily guarded
i like it in concept though
and totally get the idea
wheat herald
it would probably go in a mini sentry direction, lower autonomous build time, le...
that would be making his buildings a sidegrade
may as well play scout
shell temple
if only spawns could be entered by enemies
wheat herald
do it
gleaming radish
if only spawns could be entered by enemies
im pretty sure valve tried that and it went awfully
spark birch
Demospam moment
vernal hull
im pretty sure valve tried that and it went awfully
better yet, a few maps have that possible via exploits and oversights, and its awful when it does happen
gleaming radish
i dont like that, because it forces the only vulnerable spot to the be the exit,...
i would be more than happy to make the teleport exit way more vulnerable if we could place the entrance in spawn in turn
spark birch
Wait, what would stop spawn camping then?
shell temple
spawns in tf2 are pretty poorly made in general
theres so many conundrums with respawning, resets, etc
its begging for a spawn rework
the only problem is spawns are map design
vernal hull
what if teleporters had a number of charges and they need an engie to periodically wrench them to recharge them or else it cannot be used anymore
shell temple
so design in terms of mechanics are a bit constrained
gleaming radish
what if teleporters had a number of charges and they need an engie to periodical...
what problem are you trying to solve here
vernal hull
what problem are you trying to solve here
i dont like engie
gleaming radish
lmao
shell temple
id really like to remove babysitting from engis so not sure if itd work
tight nexus
if you wanted to rework spawns, i believe you would be limited to valve maps
since you can't legally edit licensed maps
vernal hull
less babysitting: cant recharge it by wrenching, you gotta rebuild it fully
shell temple
since you can't legally edit licensed maps
i don't wanna edit maps
gleaming radish
since you can't legally edit licensed maps
i dont think that's an issue at all with all the _pro map versions on the steam workshop
shell temple
but rather figure out changes to the map entities that fit within the prior design premise while still meaningfully reworking the mechanics
tight nexus
but besides about the mods
shell temple
i cant edit every map in existence
shell temple
even if it was legal
gleaming radish
there are also more than enough maps to chose from
tight nexus
i mean i thought there may be a loophole but thinking about the hats
maybe not
el silencio invadio todas las casas de italia
tight nexus
fossil vault
i cant edit every map in existence
Seems rather light compared to fixing every tf2 bug in existence. Believe in yourself 🙏
Can't wait for pl_wutville_mc
tight nexus
Having to recompile every map is not lighter than it
It's easy but very time consuming
charred shadow
Also another clarification: that isn't to say there won't ever be new unlocks, s...
Curious what you mean regarding the banana. Like it was added to add some competition for sandvich? Or an I misinterpreting?
shell temple
Yeah that's correct
rich moat
It's easy but very time consuming
and also there's legal issues, plus the fact that you'd then be breaking compat with community maps that aren't in the game officially, so they'd need to be recomiled too and its just a whole mess
charred shadow
Yeah that's correct
Makes sense then, banana is pretty much the only item you regularly see heavies use besides sandvich
shell temple
does anyone know the best way we can replace vgui
for game HUD it seems pretty easy
but i cant figure out how to do it for the menu
chilly nova
could you just go around vgui entirely and have entirely custom ui rendering/input/etc code?
actually, i think kisak-strike used rmlui. maybe take a look at how they did it
shell temple
yeah and the pause menu
shell temple
could you just go around vgui entirely and have entirely custom ui rendering/inp...
id be fine with that tbh
shell temple
actually, i think kisak-strike used rmlui. maybe take a look at how they did it
i mean, isnt that the full engine?
i kinda doubt they did it solely in the bounds of the sourcemod SDK
which is my problem
its easily doable with engine src
shell temple
yes you can easily do that for the game
chilly nova
then have a blank panel that just submits it's own commands
chilly nova
i mean going directly to matsys, CMatRenderContextPtr or whatever
shell temple
also heres the code for the game HUD
chilly nova
p sure that's not immediate
shell temple
i mean going directly to matsys, `CMatRenderContextPtr` or whatever
i thought this was the only type of call valid
wheat herald
replace vgui? like entirely?
chilly nova
i may be wrong
wheat herald
the fuck?
shell temple
as in, replacing all the functionality
shell temple
because vgui sucks
chilly nova
yes, vgui is the devil
wheat herald
skill issue
shell temple
panorama is way better
but since we don't have panorama we'll make panorama at home
wheat herald
breaking news mastercoms wants NO HUDS in tf2...
shell temple
we can have HUDs
kid named user styles and js hooks
@chilly nova yeah i was planning to use imgui as a test
since it should be a good simple way to see if it works
but im too lazy to start
engine cheats arent allowed on the steam store
overlay
you dont wanna know
@chilly nova CExButton
"base button class"
as if
but coordinates?
OnCursorMoved
okay honestly
HTML is good reference
thats what im about to do
well
im gonna use something else
chilly nova
but since we don't have panorama we'll make panorama at home
i have an even better idea
real panorama
simply steal the dll from csgo
shell temple
impossible
chilly nova
and hack all the engine stuff back in
vivid crow
Would a revamp of tf2's option menu be feasible or is that out of scope for a sp...
this would be cool
shell temple
mainmenuoverride.res:
CMenuPanel
i WILL use ApplySchemeSettings incorrectly
me when i delete my repo because its on github anyway
clever creekBOT
shell temple
yes thats what im saying
wheat herald
https://github.com/getnamo/BLUbrowser
patch slop browser
shell temple
@chilly nova
wheat herald
<@394179512788844544>
what is that is that classic offensive
shell temple
yippeeee
wheat herald
what
shell temple
@chilly nova https://github.com/ReplayCoding/poopfart2000/pull/1
chilly nova
shell temple
lol
chilly nova
i tried
shell temple
@chilly nova
storm cargo
TF2 panarama :O
tight nexus
coms do you plan to implement cascade shadows?
i recall you showing once some pics about it
here
shell temple
its an insane amount of code
wheat herald
why can't mappers just increase the shadow res so every map is 3 gigabytes like cs2
shell temple
and needs engine change
ficool wanted me to do something
to support runtime encoding of vrad
@sour sedge im gonna start on it in like 8 months
wheat herald
start on what
rich moat
it
spark birch
replace vgui? like entirely?
// My hope is that this code is so awful that I'm never allowed to write UI code ever again.
wheat herald
does the subtick thingy mean silentaim is back?
sour sedge
<@105806194563665920> im gonna start on it in like 8 months
Use https://www.nicbarker.com/clay for the layout engine
sour sedge
GRAHHHHHHHHH
wheat herald
panorama is kind of fucking stupid for hud developers please odnt
sour sedge
Make your own web renderer then I've done it before its not that bad
(its even worse)
shell temple
no, cef only
shell temple
panorama is kind of fucking stupid for hud developers please odnt
no
its amazing for hud developers
they dont have to use stupid hacks just to make a menu
sour sedge
Tbf Clay works with an html renderer so
wheat herald
forcing everyone to learn 3 new languages is not amazing for hud developers
ruby arrow
html/css/js only
Bloat
wheat herald
and rewrite everything
shell temple
forcing everyone to learn 3 new languages is not amazing for hud developers
3 languages with no domain specificity
shell temple
web is everywhere
wheat herald
I am never going to translate my skills to anything else do not jest
ruby arrow
@dusky sapphire @dusky sapphire @dusky sapphire @dusky sapphire @dusky sapphire
wheat herald
did you ask any hud developers about it
rich moat
i hate css
sour sedge
Hold on I wonder if servo can finally render google yet
clever creekBOT
barren glacier
Follow CSGO and bring scale form to the UI
dusky sapphire
<@626901342291755008> <@626901342291755008> <@626901342291755008> <@626901342291...
sorry i had tro brb what happened
ruby arrow
sorry i had tro brb what happened
hi
barren glacier
Yea ik
shell temple
I am never going to translate my skills to anything else do not jest
web development is way more applicable to one's skillset than vgui
hell you wouldnt even be able to get a job at valve knowing vgui
they dont use it anymore
i mean, its definitely useful at valve in rare circumstances
but like, its not a real skill
hud developers when they find some random unused training panel and complain when it gets fixed
like why do you enjoy that lmao
yes id like my anims to lag everything
yes i like only being able to animate like 4 vars
yes i love not being able to use real blend modes
barren glacier
Try to reverse engineer panorama into the SDK
sour sedge
Hold on I wonder if servo can finally render google yet
Partially apparently
Some colors are still off but
spark birch
I want my HUD to be chromium so it can download plugins like adblock. 
ruby arrow
@chilly nova 1984
ruby arrow
https://github.com/getnamo/BLUI-Unreal
bloat with bloat
chilly nova
<@394179512788844544> 1984
?
wheat herald
hud developers when they find some random unused training panel and complain whe...
this is cybersecurity specials
ruby arrow
chilly nova
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1256452751555170314/1341945926968803398/l...
???
ruby arrow
that's me and rayne
shell temple
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1256452751555170314/1341945926968803398/l...
mars players
ruby arrow
maybe if u were in vc u would get it...
chilly nova
maybe if u were in vc u would get it...
i dont get it
ruby arrow
chilly nova
@shell temple vgui is what happens when ex ms devs
ruby arrow
wheat herald
<@115180582845153282> vgui is what happens when ex ms devs
rewrite tf2 ui in winforms
hearty totem
How can I have legacy and modern versions of Source 2013 installed side by side and have TC2 and other source mods use the right version?
high wigeonBOT
@hearty totem has leveled up! (1 ➜ 2)
hearty totem
I figured how to have 2 folders and rename them when I want to play other source mods, but even if I do everything properly, when I touch "betas" to make sure steam knows I'm using different version of sdk, steam decides to validate files and install 500 MB of some data.
mortal gate
my philosophy for tc2's balance is give up on catering to comp. let comp be pres...
It's kinda interesting to read your comments on examining how Valve handles balance in Deadlock and Dota 2 because it eerily reminds me of the many different conversations that were said in interviews with Black Mesa devs (Crowbar Collective) who tried to recreate Valve game design examining various Valve projects since Half-Life while building Black Mesa (ref. interviews with Crowbar Collective, and also most notably, noclip's documentary on Black Mesa). And now that you pointed it out, it's lowkey interesting how Valve "fixed" problems in TF2 in Deadlock, so seeing the backporting process solutions found in Deadlock/Dota 2 does make a lot of sense in that context. Although that probably really confirms how TF2 truly died. Because the playerbase refused to accept change. I'm reminded of how CS was left to rot for years before finally, Valve threw their weight around and forced the community to accept the changes in CSGO/CS2. It really explains a lot, because I'm sure you [mcoms] know, but maybe some people don't know, but Valve has talked about willingly taking less money by not having a Battle Pass for Dota 2 in exchange to work on Crownfall because Crownfall was just more interesting to them. (source: Dota 2 blog a while back)
Although reading the plan for TC2 balance will likely veer away from competitive is interesting considering how Valve kinda caters to both the casual and the competitive playerbase in Dota 2. Then again, I'm also reminded the struggle of balancing something to be fun to be watchable, something fun to play across multiple axises, is a very, very difficult feat. Probably best to get the hang of balancing one thing (or bucket) before trying to start doing tightrope acts of trying to balance multiple things/buckets at once.
shell temple
I'm not aiming to make a less competitive experience, but I am also not seeking to serve the whims of the current competitive playerbase. I want to have somewhat of an adversarial relationship with them, giving problems for them to solve in play.
mortal gate
On that note, it took me way too long to figure out that Black Mesa uses Qt.
mortal gate
I'm not aiming to make a less competitive experience, but I am also not seeking ...
sounds like Dota 2's balance lmao
Valve ofc fixes the very dumb stuff that is out there, but they always upend the table with the various patches. I suspect those changes are what causes the Dota 2 devs to always come back even if they are called away for another Valve project.
But yeah reading your balancing considerations and such, it does read as someone who is a scholar in following Valve's philosophy post-TF2 dev era work.
Though wow, I'm embarrassed to not realize that "oh Deadlock is really building on the regrets of TF2".
Come to think of it, facets in Dota 2 is probably the "fixed" version of TF2's weapon loadout system.
It's kinda interesting now that I think about this because it was lauded as "wow they made Dota 2 more complicated" yet by paradox, it's less complex to handle than TF2's loadout weapon system.
(To those not versed in the history of the game, you can see the chaffing of the TF2 loadout system with how Demoman struggled with the constraints of Demoknight on the same class, and how they had to awkwardly attach nerfs to Demoman's Demoknight melees/boots to prevent cross contamination with stock Demoman. I think it's probably due for QoL so that hybrid knight is back but... that probably has knock-on effects that need testing before doing that.)
Wonder how many people remember when comp demos were going Ali Baba's Wee Booties when the boots gave bonus movement speed without a shield lol.
Yeah I'm sure if they could go back in time, they'd probably make facets for all the TF2 classes instead of having this loadout system, much to the chagrin of I'm sure, lots of other players.