Team Fortress 2 Megathread - winter is the most chill time of year

[left sand]

especially dota

why do you think valve loves dota so much?

[high current]

Cuz it makes the most money

[left sand]

thats backwards

effect and cause

valve, sure, likes the money

but there was a time dota was small and unsuccessful

[spring kestrel]

🗣️ 🔥 🔥 🔥 TIDE TURNER AND STICKY JUMPER

[left sand]

valve looked at dota 1 and saw huge potential

they loved dota because of how dynamic it was

[high current]

I think they looked at LoL and saw huge money to be had

[left sand]

valve was working with ice frog before lol

[kind falcon]

thoughts bro ?

[high current]

EU

[kind falcon]

agre or no agre

[stone linden]

also tf2 is just more stagnant in terms of like, character and item diversity. dota is not comparable because it has dozens of heroes and all that. tf2 is kind of not that open ended in terms of design. the demoman and the stickybomb launcher is absurdly strong. the medic has an overwhelming influence on the game. and these things kind of cannot change without turning the game into something entirely unrecognizable

[left sand]

its definitely the mindset of the players also

in dota people are way more receptive to dynamic balance

[high current]

ETF2L huffs spray paint with their whitelist.
IMO loch is unfun but it’s balanced in 6s.

[small siren]

*in dota people

are way more receptive to

dynamic balance*

- mcoms

[spring kestrel]

Loch being banned is weird because it's really good but also not immediately game breaking

[left sand]

this is why there needs to be a pick/ban system.

[stone linden]

loch is probably just banned bc medic players complain a lot

a lot of choices are made to favor medic players because not enough people play medic already, or so i’ve heard

[stone linden]

what do you mean by dynamic balance? like frequent balance patches?

[high current]

The reasoning behind the ban is that it allows demo to play at a safer position while still dealing substantial damage. So it’s substantially harder to punish.
I think it’s banned in RGL HL for this reason. But it was kinda a decision based on the map pool there.

[left sand]

no

i mean dynamic meta

balancing through player dynamism

players overcome challenges

[stone linden]

the meta is dynamic on a micro level in tf2 comp

[left sand]

they dont view things as unfair

they by definition do not

given the fact that theyre given an out through any restrictions whatsoever

[stone linden]

like the way people take mids and rollouts and pushes is very dynamic from round to round

[left sand]

thats not relevant to the decision economy im talking about

[stone linden]

the dynamism occurs in things like positioning and group movement and shot/attention placement

that is a lot of decisions

it’s not a specific button to click on a list but they are decisions that people make very intentionally nonetheless

and have complicated play-counterplay dynamics with the individual decisions the opponent makes

[heavy solar]

@stone linden has leveled up! (3 ➜ 4)

[left sand]

sorry but i guess you dont get my point

[stone linden]

are you talking about like, character select in dota? or a shop purchase?

[left sand]

im talking about meta

do you know the core concepts of a meta?

[stone linden]

yes

i’m pretty familiar with how the tf2 comp meta works and the decisions people make within it

[left sand]

thats not what im asking

im asking do you know the abstract concepts of a meta in game design theory?

[stone linden]

are you asking about my understanding of competitive meta games in general? i have no exposure to like dota and league but otherwise i am familiar

[left sand]

no not any specific games

[stone linden]

so can you elaborate on this?

[stone linden]

i think this is also not charitable to why the whitelists in tf2 exist at all, again. so many items are just so broken once you put them with people who have good aim and movement. im sure you understand this with like the jarate, mad milk, etc.

the fact that people don’t want to play with these items isn’t because players are too cowardly and petulant to do it. It’s less about unfairness and more about nobody wanting a clusterfuck of 4 mad milks deciding each team fight, because that’s not interesting for anyone

tf2 unlocks are just not really balanced that well around people who can really abuse them

it’s less of “i don’t want to play against this because i’m a bitch” and more of “if i play this, then its so absurdly strong that everyone plays this and we all suffer”

[left sand]

im trying to find the talk that can explain this in depth, but basically the whole concept of how the meta evolves with strong things and counters becoming strong and so on

[left sand]

i honestly do not care about this perspective

[stone linden]

yeah there is a lot of that going on in tf2

[left sand]

i think its an invalid perspective

and again, can be solved through pick/ban

[stone linden]

invalid is interesting to say lol

[left sand]

yes because its putting themselves in a position they shouldnt be in IMO

[stone linden]

and that position is?

[left sand]

designing the game

[stone linden]

but like smash melee competitive adds rules, pokemon competitive does it too

why can’t players add rulesets that make the game more playable

[left sand]

those games are different because the devs werent participating

[stone linden]

pokemon has the devs participating

smogon singles is completely separate from vgc official doubles

[left sand]

leagues actively went for this approach while valve was actively cooperating and saying what they wanted to see

[stone linden]

sometimes people play both

[left sand]

so i dont really understand this point

valve had the competitive perspective in mind

[stone linden]

people are ok with sleep clause in smogon despite that it’s literally impossible to put into a physical game without modding it

[left sand]

and were willing to make it work

i get that theres bans in tekken like for the unlockable final boss guy

but thats fundamentally different

anyways, i think i need to stop discusisng this, its been like 8 cumulative hours of my time explaining myself over and over to different people

over 2 days

fundamentally, valve said exactly what they wanted to see, the comp community didnt do that

and here we are

regardless of anything you wanna say

[stone linden]

ok so if you have this be a pick ban thing then if people always ban the same thing then that’s just a whitelist again. not that it would be literally identical to a whitelist but everyone hates mad milk

[left sand]

that will always remain true

[left sand]

thats fine, and there will be some variation

and better data

because then theres opportunity cost

[stone linden]

i mean you don’t even need data to know that the mad milk is broken as hell

[wintry marlin]

I read what u said and in an hour I got everything I needed to know, crazy stuff

[left sand]

i know that its hard as a player to understand the dev's perspective on this

but again

i really do think theres nothing wrong with my position of saying that valve said what they wanted to see

that didnt happen

and we are worse off for it

no matter how much we discuss the details

this will always be true

[misty plover]

How dare someone want to have the ability to make and press an advantage. This is RUINING MY IMMERSION

RAAAAAAAAAAA

What the FUCK is an uber 🦅🦅🦅🦅🦅🦅🦅🦅

How DARE there be actual metagame decisions and push and pull in my SHOOTER GAME

[stone linden]

a lot of strong things in tf2 are really only countered by itself, or countered by comparatively uninteresting things. for example, sniper is only really countered by another sniper, or by exploiting the fact that he is slow. (or a full time vaccinator lol) And since you only play sniper when the game slows down enough to accommodate the mobility issue, sniper kind of just makes everyone cowardly. Same thing with uber, mad milk, the presence of a demoman at all.

[stone linden]

i mean yeah, you can have four scouts throwing milk on each other every team fight and have the outcome decided on who didn’t miss their milk. that is a valid way to play, but just kind of stupid

[wintry marlin]

It's a phone app

[left sand]

i like that, that sounds cool as hell

[misty plover]

Have you tried... spacing out?

I know this is like a wild thing to the rigid comp meta but... you have this thing, where you react to current events, and play the game

[stone linden]

most competitive players really really don’t like these for reasons of overcentralization

like the mad milk is the best example

it is the fear of significantly reducing actual gameplay variety and putting so much weight on not missing your milk as opposed to doing the rest of the fight

[misty plover]

Not really sure if I'd argue that sniper has a mobility issue, most comp maps have massive sightlines which kind of makes that point mute

[stone linden]

yeah i just mean that it’s hard to run sniper in transition or to mid, etc, but he’s very strong in a stalemate if you have time to roll him out

or on last etc

[misty plover]

I'd say thats just inherently a skill issue

Like

Obviously there's better options if you're pushing the advantage forward

But he's not unusable and can definitely still contribute picks

[stone linden]

yeah, i hear sniper is occasionally ran full time

possible to make it work

[misty plover]

Its mainly a reaction time and poisitioning issue more than anything

[left sand]

sniper is definitely bombable as well, if people invest too much into a mellow playstyle like that

sure you can surf

[stone linden]

that’s what you have scouts for, it’s easy to defend against bombs if you have good scouts

and the presence of a sniper will force the enemy combo to play more passively which also makes bombs harder

[left sand]

scouts dont need to be as powerful as they are imo

[misty plover]

I will say I kind of wish sniper had bullet travel time at longer distance which would make high mobility counterplay more effective

[left sand]

its just projectiles IMO

[misty plover]

But ehh

[stone linden]

certainly bombing is good against snipers but good hitscan is good at denying bombs

[misty plover]

Scouts being allowed to stay around as guard dogs is kind of an issue formed by the rigid class meta

There's not really any easy way to keep them pressured and mobile when the main damage dealers are using slow projectiles

The only other thing that can keep a scout from guarddogging is another scout trying to press in

[stone linden]

i think your view on what is cool and not cool is just fundamentally different from what a lot of comp players think. and they have a good reason for thinking that. not that you don’t have good reasons either. I’m just saying that people have genuinely thought about this and decided things for real reasons, not just bandwagoning.

It would make sense that you have a distaste for what they want if you fundamentally disagree with them on what is or isn’t interesting to play with.

[misty plover]

Which in normal tf2 is countered by the heavy class, who, despite his slow mobility, is very effective at pressing and scattering enemies, because high fire rate hitscan.

But you guys don't run them

[left sand]

for sure, but i think its part of the growing pains

[misty plover]

Their reason is it doesn't conform to their belief on how the game should be designed yeah

[stone linden]

first of all im not a comp player so its not about me, but yeah many people have discussed both how strong heavy is in every way if you remove his mobility restriction via map choice, etc, and how boring he is to play at a high level. boring is subjective i guess but it makes sense

[misty plover]

Competitive vs casual mindset will always exist because the two groups have fundamentally different intents and beliefs for how the game should be

[stone linden]

also scout is actually pretty good versus heavy if you give him a buff and some high ground

[misty plover]

LIke, quite literally irreconcilable different perspectives

[left sand]

i really hate "boring" as an argument

[stone linden]

especially if you have mad milk, scout face tanks heavy

[left sand]

its very subjective and not forward looking

[stone linden]

i understand that, but people just quit boring games

[misty plover]

I'd argue again thats a mechanical skill issue

[left sand]

not if theyre optimistic about the potential

[misty plover]

The heavy isn't making good enough flicks at that point

[left sand]

thats my whole point

[misty plover]

Or their tracking is ineffective

[stone linden]

it is very very hard to play heavy that well in comparison to having really good scout movement

like it is always going to be difficult to track something moving 180 degrees across your screen and using a lot of high ground, etc

[left sand]

i think its just people arent interested in investing time into heavy

[misty plover]

^

[left sand]

and the people who do main heavy arent interested in 6s

[left sand]

the community wasnt optimistic enough to go through a year max of growing pains

[stone linden]

all good scout players are good at heavy basically

[left sand]

eh

[crisp cedar]

bro u got 1 min until u gotta go

[left sand]

yeah i gotta go lmao

[misty plover]

Zero minutes

Its 2:30

[crisp cedar]

why u still here

[stone linden]

being good at pistol translates well into minigun tracking

[left sand]

thats one aspect of things

sure, when youre in a good spot, fully revved and just tracking

[stone linden]

and like heavy is purely tracking and positioning, which all players get good at if they play at a high enough level

[left sand]

but getting there is just as important

[misty plover]

They're both aim heavy but the mechanical skill expression is very different

[stone linden]

getting into position is pretty easy compared to the rest of it

[stone linden]

it’s really not that different if you’re super good at pistol tracking

[small siren]

*it’s really not that

different if you’re super good

at pistol tracking*

- fishodee

[misty plover]

(Most 6s players I've fought with are awful with pistol lol)

[stone linden]

oh i mean that’s a fair point lol

you do need to first be good at tracking lol

[next nymph]

tbf thats because pistol sucks and tracking is 100x more difficult as the fastest class instead of the slowest class going a fraction of max speed anyway

[misty plover]

I don't disagree with that though because the pistol is a high fire rate low damage weapon that prioritizes skillful tracking over flicking but thats not skill expression that most comp players end up using, Scout has massive ammo reserves and the pistol doesn't do enough to be effective against an actively healed target

[stone linden]

yeah pistol is much much harder than a minigun

[stone linden]

idk b4nny uses pistol all the time

because he’s actually good at tracking lol

anyway there are valid reasons why people don’t play heavy much. people don’t even like heavy much in casual. heavy comparatively lacks depth and reward and that’s fine. not all classes or playstyles have an equal amount of skill expression or just entertainment value in playing well

i like playing heavy sometimes

[misty plover]

I like every class except spy who's just in an awful state

Spy is very ineffective at any level above the bare minimum

[next nymph]

i dont care if they buff spy to be the strongest class, im still not playing him

[stone linden]

spy is good for solo pub stomping if you have the skill, and otherwise kind of sad

[misty plover]

I think spy is kind of impossible to make fun though unless you want to make him into more support oriented rather than being a picker

[wintry marlin]

Have you ever tried swatting a mosquito

[stone linden]

nobody needs a pocket medic to pub stomp if you can kunai enough lifesteal

[misty plover]

Have you ever tried blasting a mosquito with a can of bugspray

[small siren]

*Have you ever tried

blasting a mosquito with

a can of bugspray*

- ឵឵ ឵ ឵ ឵ ឵nolat

[oblique tangle]

sounds like someone has a problem with gentlemen

[next nymph]

swatting people is illegal, people could die when you do

[misty plover]

That's the heavy vs scout matchup, if you're losing the matchup its more likely you're doing something wrong, whether that be low sensitivity (tracking is very tied into sensitivity and you need to adjust your sensitivity to the scenario, I really recommend playing with various levels so you can learn to swap on the fly), or you're taking an ineffective aim path, a lot of people are conditioned to take long curves rather than straight lines when tracking (and flicking too), its a very hard habit to break

[stone linden]

anyway yeah heavy is less skillful to play, and giving heavy free mobility gives free air defense to a combo. and that kind of mobile area denial is oppressive to anyone trying to push or bomb.

And then might as well have a sniper too because a heavy is great for guarding the sniper, and you want a counter for the opposing heavy.

Now all of a sudden you have to sit there and hide from a sniper, and you can’t aggress the sniper because of the heavy. And you have made highlander lite which is a sniper 1v1! Oh wait this is exactly how pro lander works

[next nymph]

heavy vs scout is entirely dependent on circumstance. If the heavy is positioned well and revved up the scout should die. If the scout catches the heavy moving somewhere then the heavy should die, unless there are higher priority targets like a medic

[misty plover]

Agreed on this too

Its kind of the same way with dragon'sfury pyro matchup (one of my favorite weapons lol), a heavy will win any encounter if he's prepared and ready for it

[stone linden]

i guess this goes back to the earlier discussion. People dislike heavy not just for less skill but because it “slows the game down” and introduces more stalemates. Many of the 6s design choices are focused on reducing those stalemates and promoting more team fights and aggressive actions that move the match along. And many existing comp players prefer a game like this, so much that they do not want to play anything slower in a serious format.

And if you like a slower game with more stalemates, maybe you could have been the valve tf2 comp community instead. Clearly the existing comp players don’t have what it takes for a slower game mode so those who enjoy that could have stepped up

alternatively you could try to explore why people tend to dislike stalemates, and why they don’t see it as methodical or positive. However, everyone will have their own preferences at the end of the day, and that’s ok

[high current]

You can play slower. They’re different play styles. It’s generally easier to keep momentum going than it is to get that initial momentum. That’s why the faster playstyle is more common.

But if you have a team that can be methodical, you definitely can play that way. I’ve played both styles. Both are equally valid.

Though modern scoring rewards rounds won, so slower games are more likely to be 3-x wins or whatever. Where a faster game that is something like 5-x give more points, so technically faster is better.

[haughty musk]

Yep.

All the time

(I’ve played like twice)

[radiant merlin]

do you guys think that doors are outdated to current map design philosophies in other games?

or, in other words, that tf2 maps shouldn't rely on doors as a balance method?

[high current]

Like shutters that open/close specifically or just the openings in between two areas with a door frame type thing?

I think either is fine as long as it seems natural. If it seems like the map maker slapped a shutter on everything in order to balance certain areas then it feels bad.

I need a revolving door. That would be optimal

[summer steeple]

average valve comp game

[stone linden]

i think choke points / doors are important in many shooters, especially ones with so much varied movement like tf2

it’s really hard to defend in open areas if your opponents have unrestricted movement

[summer steeple]

I think it really depends, comparing tf2 map design to other games is kind of just apples and oranges most of the time imo.

as for if doors are outdated for just modern tf2... idk.
doors have upsides and downsides, some of which being baked into tf2 since launch, like sticky traps.
I feel like doors really help in 2 places, protecting areas which would have an annoying sightline without them, and one-way doors. I'm not counting doors that permanently open or close in this because I don't think it really alters moment to moment gameplay much.

one-ways definitely still have their place in tf2 imo, it can make pushes a little bit easier for one team while disallowing the defenders from (easily) overtaking the area to pincer the attackers.

doors for sightline protection is a bit rougher, since a sniper can just strattle the edge of the door open trigger and use it for safer sniping, but I think often a door can also just help an area to just slightly break up fights to be overall safer. Specifically what I'm imagining as like a gold star of door placement for this purpose is the door on the main path between second and last on Sunshine (see image). the area construction prevents most long sightlines anyway, but it's presence alone I think helps make second an easier place for attacking engis to build, and also means that defenders trying to push will potentially be a bit more prepared before fighting it

also as a side note, there is one kind of spooky sightline that could be possible without this door

[rare creek]

There's no reason to be anti door

[summer steeple]

new image (now with sniper)

granted rendering is a bit different between hammer and ingame (i'm too lazy to boot up tf2) but thats a pretty small sniper

also that area is in shadow on both sides of the map, but everyone has rimlighting enabled, right? :)

[stone linden]

oh yeah that shutter is doing a lot of necessary work

1 on process is maybe similar

[left sand]

comp shouldnt be any one play style. that's the bad part. other competitive games, especially valve ones, accomodate a rich set of possibilities. there shouldn't be a comp community for each playstyle, the one comp community should be more accepting for everything.

[velvet raft]

i like apples and oranges

[stone linden]

there is not one play style. i think you’re confusing loadout and class selection with play style

[left sand]

you just said slowing the game down is a disliked playstyle

[stone linden]

at least for sixes there is a rich set of possibilities, and for example reducing weapon bans would reduce the viable possibilities

[left sand]

i dont think thats the case

especially with a pick/ban weapon system

[stone linden]

that is quite literally the case if you allow weapons like vaccinator and wrangler back in

reserve shooter

[left sand]

lol

[stone linden]

accepting the vaccinator and wrangler just makes everyone’s life worse for both teams

everyone would likely just ban vaccinator first and pick whichever one out of the next 5 problem items next each time

[left sand]

thats fine by me

[stone linden]

so you don’t have a problem with the whitelist then?

[left sand]

lol

you know thats not what i said, so why would you ask it

[stone linden]

i mean i don’t understand the idea of “global weapon bans are bad and reduce variety” along with “maybe everyone would ban the exact same items and that’s ok”

like those are the same effect

some items are just terrible to play with and against

[left sand]

thats totally subjective

[stone linden]

and that’s fine, people can just not play with those items. extends to things like class limits and so on

again, if you really liked playing these items so much, nobody is stopping you. but so many other players don’t like using them, so they’re allowed to play without them

[left sand]

yeah so they can pick/ban those

each team could choose what items they dont like

because its subjective

[stone linden]

and if all the teams agree on it over time?

[left sand]

1, that wont happen

2, thats totally fine as well

you seem to have a really hard time grasping this concept

[stone linden]

like this is basically what happened in community leagues. not everyone agrees on every single whitelist item and it changes over time, but the worst offenders are pretty much unanimous

[left sand]

that leaving it up to the teams is way better

no

it didnt

thats absolutely not true

it is not unanimous

especially not across leagues lol

[stone linden]

is there a significant amount of people who really want to play with the vaccinator? or the jarate?

[left sand]

it would be super interesting to see that variety

of people being able to choose those things

idk why youre arguing to not have a choice lol

[stone linden]

there was nr6s seasons and it was terrible from everything i heard when people ran double vaccinator all the time. like vaccinated machina on upward last with sentries

that’s so terrible

[left sand]

that sounds fire!

[stone linden]

oh my god

maybe to you

[left sand]

yes!!

[stone linden]

but so many people did not enjoy that

so you can play that if you want and others don’t need to

[left sand]

thats okay, it feels like a pick/ban weapon system would fix that

[stone linden]

it seems people did not enjoy medic and demo stacking as well so that’s another thing that class limits are helpful for

[left sand]

i thought 6s was optimal tho

doesnt demo have weaknesses

he has dps sure

[crisp cedar]

wait u mean when there are no weapon bans, 2 scouts 2 soldiers demo medic isnt the most optimal way to play?

[stone linden]

no, it’s “optimal” in the sense of being interactive and enjoyable to play

[crisp cedar]

wtf

[left sand]

i feel like thats subjective

[stone linden]

it’s not trying to literally be optimal to win because that is super unenjoyable to the majority of comp players

[left sand]

thats okay

[stone linden]

again, if more people liked it, then they would have done other formats

[left sand]

nah

[stone linden]

like clearly nobody liked playing valve nr6s

[left sand]

selection bias

i just personally think this is so insanely funny

[stone linden]

but like valve nr6s was open to the whole community

[left sand]

uhuh

[stone linden]

there’s plenty of people that could have played it and i guess it didn’t catch on because people didn’t like it

[left sand]

yeah lets make an alt mode that basically no one will play and say here you go guys, people who have never been involved in comp, try this

yup thats totally what happened and they totally effectiveness managed it to support that

[tacit flare]

We talking about Valve comp 6's?

[crisp cedar]

i feel like when youre gearing up for a competitive experience you automatically forfeit any entitlement to fun

[left sand]

look, without the entirety of the comp scene being forced to play a certain way, theres no staying power to any of this

inherently

people already selected for a particular thing

[stone linden]

yeah again that’s how any developer made competitive game begins. the devs make their ruleset and their matchmaking queue, and player choose to play it if they enjoy it or if they think they can make money out of it or something

[crisp cedar]

like if you play comp in any game ur not rly entitled to having a fun experience

[stone linden]

you keep insisting that the fact players didn’t choose this game mode is a sin

[left sand]

it is though lol

[stone linden]

like maybe it just wasn’t a good time

[left sand]

because valve kept saying that this was the road to getting competitive support

for years

so yeah

theyre selfish and just want to have fun

thats okay

[stone linden]

and people are allowed to disagree with that if it’s no fun!

[left sand]

yes but its entirely selfish

[stone linden]

wait that’s why we all play games though what’s wrong with that

[left sand]

thats my point

its selfish

[stone linden]

is it selfish for me to go play some tf2 casually?

[left sand]

competitive scene is more than just selfish fun

yes

its self interested

[tacit flare]

Because like.. Valve comp can't be used as a genuine metric for interest or functionality for competitive. The entire thing was a dumper fire of downright broken features plagued by hackers and bots.

[left sand]

like bro

im not saying like

[stone linden]

oh my god im going to feel so guilty for playing the game on my own for entertainment. im selfish for this?

[left sand]

lol

why are you taking it as a serious insult

[stone linden]

like tf2 comp players are all amateur players outside of idk a few streamers maybe? people all just organized these things for fun at the end of the day

[left sand]

im just saying that it wasnt a collective action to behave in that way

it was self interested

[stone linden]

because you keep insisting that they should have done something you want, when we all play this game in our free time for our own fun and there’s nothing wrong with that

and this applies to all games that are not played professionally i.e. for income and livelihood

[left sand]

yeah so again

selfish

[stone linden]

so there’s nothing wrong at all for being selfish in the same way there’s nothing wrong if i go join a local basketball league for exercise, or go play some Oblivion or whatnot

like i guess we are all selfish all the time then?

which is honestly reasonable to say

it’s just like really uninteresting to call people selfish for playing what they want when most our our daily activities are self centered in life

[left sand]

yeah why are you taking it as an insult

im just talking about virtues here

[stone linden]

i mean i happen to find it generally offensive if you call people selfish for no reason, especially if you want them to do something for you that they don’t think they want. but ok, if everything is selfish, that’s fine. i don’t need to be offended by that.

in that case yeah like 99% of gamers ever are just selfish, including various pro gamers in other communities who are just trying to make an honest living. so calling people selfish isn’t interesting

like they’re not any more or less selfish than others, we’re all various shades of selfish apart from great contributors (such as yourself!) who have done more than necessary for the support of others

[left sand]

i feel like you dont really get what my idealism is here

oh well

its okay

[stone linden]

i think what you want is for people to invest a lot of free time and emotions into a game mode that they don’t enjoy playing in the hopes that it might be better someday.

and i think you think it is selfish and wrong for them to have not done so.

i am saying that this is no more or less selfish than what the vast majority of people do every day to make a living and try to enjoy their lives, and it feels uncomfortably moralistic to criticize them for choosing the games they want to play, especially when they’re doing it for free

i’m not a competitive player but i hear that it’s not only that valve comp was unenjoyable, but it was also that many players simply fundamentally disagreed with what little vision Valve had in formulating comp matchmaking. And people are allowed to have genuine differences of opinion and walk away from stuff that is ideologically different from what they envision. I wouldn’t call that selfish either, maybe that’s standing up for their own vision of things

[rare creek]

Do you think doors should be in TF2 or shouldn't be in TF2

[left sand]

sorry but when i see that so many other comp players suffered through growing pains

and tf2 players didnt do the same

thats just selfish and uncaring towards their own future and the potential of their scene

so idk

[stone linden]

maybe they found happiness elsewhere lol. maybe some of them touched some grass. maybe that was better for their future. who knows?

[left sand]

lol

thats so funny bro

[stone linden]

i don’t wanna judge people for choosing what to do with their time

[left sand]

thats such a cop out lmao

youre trying everything to not say

okay maybe comp players could have done something different for the betterment of their scene

thats all lmao

[stone linden]

yes absolutely! maybe better things could have happened! i fully agree

[left sand]

and youre bending over backwards with all sorts of logical backouts just to avoid saying that

okay so why the argument

[stone linden]

i don’t see any problem with saying that maybe things can be better. my problem is the moralization and the disdain for them

im just not interested in shitting on people for choosing what they want to play, seriously

it’s a video game that people organized teams and rule sets to compete for fun

[left sand]

so we can say "things could have been better if people made different choices" but not "things turned out worse due to bad/unoptimal decisions made"?

[stone linden]

because it’s just not a small segment of players’ responsibility to do that. like i just don’t think they were obligated to do anything as individuals

[left sand]

what

so things could have been better but no one is responsible for it not being better

[stone linden]

yes! they’re not like morally at fault for doing something else, especially if they just didn’t believe in what you believed in

[left sand]

that makes no sense lmao

[stone linden]

yeah it makes sense if you don’t moralize it

it’s not like competitive players caused people to die by not playing valve nr6s

like obviously that’s not what you’re claiming but it’s not that morally deep

[left sand]

dude

why do you think im a priest

[stone linden]

and it’s not useful to be so angry at people for it

[left sand]

im just saying

that things could ahve been better

and people didnt do the things that could have made it better

[stone linden]

not literally a priest but you were talking about blame and virtue and selfishness

[next nymph]

i think the resistance to the idea is that i dont know of anyone's really to blame given the circumstance. The comp community is comfortable enough with how comp works and casual players are comfortable enough having nothing to do with comp. Of course neither was really ever gonna budge on that, not when these communities have had a decade to figure out what they want

[stone linden]

yeah i don’t even blame anyone in particular except for maybe valve for being shitty to their own game over the years lol

[left sand]

yes so if competitive players are fine with the scene not being big why do they keep complaining about it

i wouldnt have a problem if people were literally content

but theyre not

theyre not content the game didnt get big

theyre not content the game didnt get indefinite support by way of a healthy scene

all of these are problems

why do you keep pretending people are comfortable

[stone linden]

people are allowed to be unhappy about things, just as you are unhappy about things. and people are allowed to voice them

[left sand]

if people were comfortable, no one would be complaining

yes of course

and im just saying

heres the solution

that valve said they wanted

for nearly a decade before they gave up

[stone linden]

maybe they don’t agree with your solution and that doesn’t make them bad people inherently

[left sand]

and the comp scene didnt do that

because they were happy to not do that, but they still complain about how happy they are i guess

[next nymph]

why do pubbers complain about the game dying but not do more to attract and onboard newcomers? Because they're just complaints

[left sand]

sorry but comp players have more responsibility to act as leaders in the community

same as tf2tubers

they have increased investment, they are literally leading in some aspect

idk why you say its so bad for me to say that people made a bad choice

it isnt the end of the world to have made a mistake

especially about team fortress 2 competitive

[stone linden]

because you kept saying they are bad people for having made this choice, and some of them don’t even think it was a mistake

[left sand]

what

i never said that

i literally have not said they were bad people lol

[stone linden]

ok i guess my bad if “selfish” isn’t an attack on their person

[left sand]

everyone is self interested in a way

its just an identification about a specific class of behavior in a specific circumstance

not a commentary on their character overall

i never said they were selfish people

i said they were being selfish

which is true

my point is that so many other scenes did put up with a brief period of unfun stink from the dev as the dev fumbled around trying to support comp

[stone linden]

ok, that’s reasonable. i’m also saying that it could be possible for them to have genuinely cared about the future of the community and just fundamentally disagreed with the vision that valve had, and that’s ok too

[left sand]

i dont think thats okay

because at the end of the day, you move forward WITH valve

things can be sorted out over time

but being so stubborn and picky wasnt productive

it just stalled things over and over

[stone linden]

like the question of “should they stick it out” is not an obvious “yes” for me. it is possible to become so disappointed in Valve that you don’t see a path forward with things, especially with how bad the rest of MyM was at launch

[left sand]

theres either a comp scene with valve, or no comp scene

and people picked no comp scene

bro, again, other games had much worse launches

but people acted collectively to support the dev through the process

[stone linden]

im pretty sure they’re just being self centered when they do that too though

[left sand]

because they understood that the potential to make the game they loved a big game on the scene was huge

[small siren]

*im pretty sure they’re

just being self centered when

they do that too though*

- fishodee

[left sand]

i would say seeing someone tolerate through an unfun period just to see something they value make it through is selfless and selfish

but more selfless than not doing that at all

[stone linden]

i think that’s an overly simplistic way of seeing things

[left sand]

i dont think so, i feel like your view is much more simplistic

its just to point the finger at valve, and to not reflect at all about the social mechanisms at play

[next nymph]

I think it would also have been a bad choice for the comp community to say "none of us want this but let's go back to how the game was played in beta. Maybe there's a chance something good might happen if we just suffer through it long enough!" I think the more likely outcome is that it still fails to attract new players and still wouldn't last, but you've also bleed comp players who tried to stick it out but are just no longer interested in playing with this format.

Like if it's "hey comp players should've given valve comp a better chance" yeah I agree. If it's "comp players should've switched to nr6s completely" then I think that's silly

[left sand]

valve explicitly outlined what they wanted

it was ignored

and it wasnt raw dogging nr 6s

it was them asking that comp as a whole would be unified and not too different from the main game

by easing into no weapon bans in a global whitelist, and having a pick/ban weapon system

they literally gave a whole plan

and it hasnt been done for over a decade

[next nymph]

how many seasons needed to be complete write-offs while the details get ironed out

[stone linden]

if nintendo approached smogon and said for them to start getting rid of some rulesets to get the game compatible with the actual physical cartridges, people would be upset

[left sand]

i feel like boiling the frog would have worked for sure, easing over time into less and less weapon bans

especially when at the time valve was heavily investing into the game

multiple updates every year

[stone linden]

people are allowed to have their own formats and ways to play the game

[next nymph]

didnt this literally happen though

[small siren]

*people are allowed

to have their own formats and

ways to play the game*

- fishodee

[left sand]

but comp ignored it

no it wasnt until 4 years valve asked that they even started on global whitelist

and then the global whitelist completely stalled out

[stone linden]

it’s not really cool for a game developer to shut down (or ask to fundamentally change) a completely separate community organized format.

[left sand]

the pick/ban weapon system had no plan to be added

the best of the best were playing in that format, and it would be better if they played in valves format instead

[stone linden]

smogon players are not wrong for liking singles ladder on pokemon showdown website instead of buying the game and breeding for countless hours to get good teams on vgc doubles

idk im just in favor of freedom for people to play the game how they want

[left sand]

beggars cant be choosers

imagine if dota players boycotted valve's international because it didnt include the heroes they wanted

lol

[left sand]

yeah thats why theres restrictions on the game

yup

[stone linden]

sure, then other players would go and play that

yeah, freedom to make your own rulesets…

[left sand]

you dont seem to know how competitive ladders work

[stone linden]

nobody is forcing you to play anything

[left sand]

unfortunately

[stone linden]

i think i do know how they work

[left sand]

then you wouldnt be suggesting to be gutting a vast majority of the highest levels of skill in the playerbase

anyways, if you are so happy, then youve already gotten everything that youve wanted and youre perfectly content with how the game is going

[stone linden]

i mean skill is built over time, there can always be other players to get better

[left sand]

sure

[stone linden]

everyone started somewhere?

[left sand]

but thats a whole new scene that takes a while to build up

which is something i said before but you forgot it

[next nymph]

i just think this attitude of "the comp community should've just scrapped what they enjoyed in the hopes that valve -- notoriously spotty on the game even back then and extremely notoriously slow when they do stuff -- would eventually get around to improving it somewhat" is really unfair to put on comp players as a whole. I'm not gonna claim that the comp community did everything they should've but I think when you go beyond "valve comp should've been supported better" you're getting into non-starters

[left sand]

because you brought up this same point earlier

im not content with how the game is going and id like to encourage the community to catch valve's attention

[stone linden]

yeah, competitive scenes do take time to build. people took like 10 years to get good at tf2

[left sand]

for sure but this is what we can do as a community

if the tf2 community is so great and nice and its just entirely unfair

[stone linden]

sniper got so much stronger over time because people finally got good enough at aiming for example

[left sand]

then why didnt we at least try to do this

it just sucks

and id really like to advocate and push for us to at least try

[small siren]

*and id really like

to advocate and push for

us to at least try*

- mcoms

[left sand]

and i really really hate

that even people high up in the community disagree with this

its honestly sickening to me

[stone linden]

i mean regardless of what might happen in an ideal world, this game is dead to valve beyond the loot boxes, which have always been the point anyway

[left sand]

i want to do everything in my power to make sure we do better

but i guess everyone else is like oh lemme just point the finger

no

im just sad i wasnt prominent enough or skilled enough even to do anything myself

or else i would have done it at the time

and maybe i could have helped change history

but i want to do my part now

and i am sick and tired of people saying no it was fine lets just blame valve

dude

why is it so fucking offensive to say that we should have tried

its not

unless youre an immature freak baby

im sorry but thats the truth

[next nymph]

i think any push to improve things has to recognize the many different types of players and what they enjoy about the game. Because I think in some ways tf2 is not just a single game but a platform for several different subgames, not just comp and pubs but also stuff like traders and modders and etc.

I don't know what that push would look like. But I don't think "we're gonna compromise on the thing you like in the hopes that it'll uplift the entire game" is possible or reasonable

[left sand]

i think it is possible

dude all im doing is trying to self-fund a $500,000 league

all im going to do is use my entire life savings on this

[small siren]

*all im going to

do is use my entire

life savings on this*

- mcoms

[left sand]

im that fucking serious about this

and i am really fucking tired of people bitching and moaning about this stupid shit!

it is a fucking really lowly opinion to even think of that as acceptable

and honestly, id expect more out of this community

to want to do this

but nah

this is just really fucking disappointing and gut wrenching behavior

to take issue with taking some fucking responsibility

its not a sin to do so

[stone linden]

i really respect that you’re so serious about revitalizing competitive possibilities in tf2. at the same time it is confusing that you have such a strong disdain for what 6s players have said over the years. you said that they had put the most time and effort into actually learning the game. Ok, maybe they chose some wrong decisions in your opinion. But you seem to think they also have no valid opinion at all on how competitive play in tf2 works, with your attitudes about whitelists and “restricting playstyles” and whatnot

[left sand]

bro that makes no sense sorry

yes i am critical

is that a big fucking problem?

its so fucking wrong to be critical of people?

like literally

yes you can keep playing the blame game

[stone linden]

like is it possible that they do have a correct opinion on what is actually fun and playable in tf2 at the highest levels of mechanical skill, and you don’t?

[left sand]

finger pointing

or you can just

[rare creek]

Remove doors

[left sand]

take responsibility

we only have control over ourselves

thats all we ever can do in our life

we're not gonna get anywhere blaming valve

how about we just fucking try

for one god damn time

to do it the other way

[stone linden]

like you keep saying things on how sixes is so boring and stale and too restrictive. Ok, maybe that’s what Valve thinks. Have you given genuine thought to why the best players of the game, as you said, think this way about competitive formats? Why they much prefer a restricted 6v6 with only one medic and demo compared to anything else?

[left sand]

yes, again, theres growing pains to this

[high current]

I’d agree like a year or two ago. But RGL is on life support right now. So I think something that would be unpopular with most the community right now would probably just kill NA comp.

[high current]

With this

[left sand]

but valve said explicitly what they wanted the future to look like

[left sand]

i totally get that

i empathize with that

like legit

i totally take that to heart

but thats why im advocating for a change in tone

throughout the whole community

and i only wish i had a bigger voice to advocate for that

[small siren]

*and i only wish

i had a bigger voice to

advocate for that*

- mcoms

[left sand]

and change minds about this

to give it a chance, give it a try

and be graceful

i get that people dont like it

but like

if we all talk to one another

and decide rationally to do this

and have understanding about it

then why not

whats the harm

[high current]

I think trying something different to garner new interest would be valid. But at this point it’s such high risk that I think smaller incremental changes are the better approach currently.

[left sand]

for sure

whatever we can do

i dont really care what it is

as long as we reach the goal in the end

and try it

exactly what valve asked for

and unified across the whole comp community

one ruleset, no bans, a pick/ban weapon system

and then maybe we can get valves attention

[next nymph]

idk mcoms, this is kinda the point I was trying to make. I don't see the point of framing everything in terms of "this is how the comp community messed everything up and is at fault for this" when, in my mind, I feel that everyone (comp, pubbers, valve, etc.) acted exactly as they obviously would've given the circumstance. And I agree that we should be solutions oriented towards it and focus on what we should do about it, but I don't know how effective a solution would be if it doesn't take what each community wants and acts into account without blame

[high current]

I actually think it’d be kinda neat to see a game mode where you vote on fully open whitelist and literally pure stock.
I don’t think it’d be super viable but I think it’d be kinda neat to see what people favored.

[left sand]

dude this is just laughably nonsense sorry

why is it so wrong to look inward

youre saying this is the blame game but no

[stone linden]

What if Valve’s vision is simply hopeless for a fun experience, according to people who are the best at abusing the shit out of the inherent unfairness in the game design?

I understand the desire for a developer supported competitive mode, of any kind at all. Yes, only the sort of organizational prestige and capital of the developer itself can create enough money opportunities and whatnot to let people make a real living from competitive play.

But i don’t think you consider the possibility that maybe Valve is just super wrong about the basic balance and interactivity of tf2 mechanics when pushed to their limits.

I personally am not taking a strong argument on this one because I’m not a great player and not in comp. But these things are why many invite players are so attached to the community rulesets/game mode, or so i’ve heard

[left sand]

i am part of this community

i am looking inward as well

im just trying to create a movement for others to do the same

to even suggest that is again a pointless blame game when it is quite literally taking action and taking matters into our own hands

how on earth could you legitimately accuse me of that

[left sand]

the thing is, the dev can actually balance the game

we can only do so much

[next nymph]

I'm sorry but you could be b4nny himself and "this is how the comp community messed everything up and is at fault for this" would still feel like playing the blame game to me

[left sand]

sorry i dont think thats a healthy way to look at things

if the president said "the buck stops here, i am to blame"

thats not the blame game

because its literally taking matters into your own hands

its not about just moaning and whining

its about doing

[stone linden]

A) they had so many years to balance the game
B) you said it yourself that the game is pretty casual deep in its bones. it is fundamentally nearly impossible to balance both for the people who are exploiting every small broken mechanic to their advantage with excellent aim, and those who are trying to have fun pushing the cart in casual

[heavy solar]

@stone linden has leveled up! (4 ➜ 5)

[left sand]

the blame game is about the former

[stone linden]

and you said you didn’t like the post MyM balance either

[left sand]

sorry but theyi couldnt continue, they expressly said why having a disjoint comp scene is unhealthy

and it contributed to the failure of valve comp

because of the fragmentation

on both ends

instead of just trying to bring casuals into comp

it became about bringing both comp and casuals into comp

which was such a hard, indefinite problem, especially with a hostile community, that valve gave up

and i just want to advocate to make things easier for them

and do what we can to contribute to that

like they literally started letting us making bug fixes

why not do the work of bridging that gap for them

why not start that movement

[next nymph]

I feel like the prolander push failed, in part, because despite it being a direct action to try and improve things, the discourse I saw around it really did feel like "we're trying to bring people into the game while you 6s players refuse to grow." I don't see doing stuff to try and improve things and blaming things as impossible to both happen, what I'm saying is they very much can both happen but it dooms things from the start

[left sand]

yeah separating things out further creates problems

[stone linden]

eh prolander just kind of sucks, that’s separate. people did try it out and it just was worse to play for most players. it was a worse version of HL

like time and time again, people try to make up alternate formats, and they always end up being less fun than HL or 6s. and HL is still a sniper 1v1 fest

the comp community would probably be pretty interested if someone successfully reinvented the wheel and came up with something new that was engaging to play, not annoying, and skill expressive. but that hasn’t happened in so many years

[left sand]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNjejqbafI8

[left sand]

people still stayed with epic after this believe it or not

the game was LITERALLY unplayable

LITERALLY

it was lagging

where people couldnt move or do anything

no one boycotted the event

they were incredibly understanding that it was growing pains

and epic was trying to make fortnite competitive over time

its insane that tf2 players didnt have the same view of the game

for comparatively minor issues

like literally, you can watch the video, the game was literally unplayable

[cursive peak]

Even the jokey competitive formats that should have appealed to pubbers never caught on. Ready Steady Pan had the meme going for it and still failed.

[left sand]

but they didnt care

casual players like watching the best of the best play and learn from really cool plays.

[next nymph]

yeah I'm not saying prolander was ever become the primary format or even a good idea. But I think it only failed so badly because it wasn't really considering what any community actually wanted or what appeals to them, it was kinda just "this is what I think 6s should've done years ago" almost and that only pissed people off

[left sand]

it doesnt have to be a jokey format

i think if they were pissy about this sort of stuff, then like

idk we should change the attitude

[stone linden]

i agree, im just trying to highlight the fact that 6s isn’t a stupid format. It has withstood the test of time even despite Valve’s dislike of it for actual gameplay reasons

[left sand]

6s has a self selection problem

if you cant see that then thats idk

[stone linden]

any competitive game has a self selection thing going on

[left sand]

many people are very obviously unhappy about it

sure but not to this extent

[stone linden]

it’s not a perfect mode by any means, but tf2 is a super flawed game in terms of fundamental balance

[left sand]

cs2 and dota are basically the same game and of course the skill gap self selects for the best of the best

i dont really mind tf2 not being perfect

thats not the point

the point is going through that

tf2 can be refined over time by the devs at that point

instead of going it alone

like the community did that and gave themselves that opportunity but wont do it for valve ig

and thats precisely my criticism

[stone linden]

the biggest thing 6s selects for in terms of actual skills involved is general aim, movement, gamesense, and communication skills. i’m sure social self selection exists especially because you need to find your own team, but these are like the general game skills in tf2

[cursive peak]

Attracting pubbers to competitive modes has long been a problem.

[small siren]

*Attracting pubbers

to competitive modes has

long been a problem.*

- steamworks

[stone linden]

it’s not some weird hodgepodge of unimportant skills

[left sand]

people arent interested in 6s if they hear about the rumored restrictions

[next nymph]

of course it does! But they figured out what they want and they're not gonna leave it unless the new thing also does what they want

[left sand]

thats a huge criticism of the game from pubbers and you can say theyre wrong but if you want to grow the scene you need to act like a product manager

[cursive peak]

I was including any variants, 6s, HL, 4s, ultiduo, etc.

[left sand]

sure but if people are forward looking then

idk

again

i am advocating for a different attitude

for everyone to benefit

idk this seems like a weird point to make

idk why people arent like

yeah mcoms! you go! omg i am excited to see if we can make it work

no i have to sit here for 2 days arguing

about insane shit

[wild grove]

How long have yall been talking about this, I was seeing y'all talk about it in the morning, and its like 7 PM over here lol

[left sand]

its actually frustrating

yes exactly

[broken haven]

this has been going on for days hasnt it

[stone linden]

it is unfortunately possible that the pubbers are actually wrong about the restrictions, and relaxing them makes the game borderline unplayable at a high level. obviously i don’t know for sure, but this is a real possibility

[left sand]

its incredibly horrible for my mental health

to see everyone of these people be such a sour fucking rude prick to me

over and over

saying oh no you shouldnt want to make things better

thats bad

you shouldnt be so long term optimist

no i hate you f or that

god damn guys

[stone linden]

i think it’s awesome that you’re trying very hard to improve things. i just also think you might be wrong about 6s, restrictions, and how people play this game at the highest level, and why they do or don’t like certain things

[left sand]

i am not wrong though

like inherently

[stone linden]

that is a pretty confident statement

[next nymph]

my hesitation is that I don't think "the game grows bigger" is actually a high priority for 6s players. "the format I like grows bigger" is a much higher priority and "I get to play the format I like" is the highest. I don't mean to discourage you but I think that needs to be recognized without judgement or being treated as wrong

[high current]

Jumping in at a random point here:
but Mcoms, you have more pull in the community than sigafoo did when the started RGL prolander or highlander. If you wanted you could realistically garner interest in a cup at the minimum of the format you’d like.

[left sand]

like my view on things is that valve very clearly stated how they would invest in the scene

and they just couldnt do the social/community work necessary to bridge the gap solely through updates

i literally dont have money though

sigafoo had way more money than i do

i am barely scraping by

and i have very little pull in terms of voice/reach

i have no actual communication channels to talk to people

[small siren]

*i have no actual

communication channels

to talk to people*

- mcoms

[left sand]

yes and i think thats incredibly disappointing

and people should socially encourage people to view the game in a more optimistic and forward looking way

i dont think thats done through shame

like im not advocating for shaming people

im advocating for being forward looking, problem saving, encouraging and uplifting the community and thinking that we can do this

also the amount of time it takes to organize a league

i have no experience to do such a thing

it would maek more sensee to make this a movement to make existing organizations with all their funding and infrastructure to make a shift

even if temporary

if you wait for me to do it entirely on my own it will take another 10 years

i am seriously it is a contingency i have

[high current]

Idk what the first prolander season prize pool was. But most 1 day cups or even smaller tournaments have a prize pool of like $50 tops. Usually substantially less.

[left sand]

but it will be very late

yes and that was a failure

it needs to be on the same level or even more than the top level of competition

or else it wont work

it cant be a side piece

it has to be the main piece

[high current]

Like I’ve put together teams for weekend tournaments where first place was 3 keys

[left sand]

or else it doesnt work as intended

thats irrelevant

it needs to distort/alter the scene

not be some small thing a few teams bother to do

its literally rocking the boat

and that happens through social activity, propaganda, optimism, change of hearts and minds, etc

as well as organization and tournaments

[high current]

Even then. I think if you just offered a league that didn’t have rampant racism, homophobia, and cheating. And charged a league fee of $5. You could probably put together a viable league.
RGL is in worse shape currently than UGC was when RGL jumped into the HL scene.

IMO.

[left sand]

its a lot of work for me to do and organize and gather the people

especially when in my own fucking discord people are saying no to me

this whole fucking day has been a hug edisaster i have just been hated on for the entire day

[high current]

Or another avenue would be a decent pug service. People just want to play pugs, if you had NR6s pugs it wouldn’t have quite the scope you’re looking for. But it could definitely provide data and get some traction going.

[left sand]

i am working on a pugs service actually

[high current]

As long as it’s not captains pick teams I think that’s good

If you do captains people just stack teams. The only way to have a captain pug that isn’t a shit show is if captains don’t know what team they’re playing on when they pick IMO.

[left sand]

i think with the right player pick order it can work

but only for the highest level of play

the lower levels should be queued into

[stone linden]

i’m not interested in nr6s but i would consider participating if you made an automated pug system. i’m willing to try out stuff you publish

[high current]

Eh. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a captain pug that wasn’t awful. Theoretically it’s possible, but captains need to know players and their ability on roles and that’s just too much to ask imo. And then they need to either not stack the team or be equally good at stacking teams.

[left sand]

if theres a system in an invite level pug to pick the two best captains, and then they pick the teams, i think it works

i dont think it works in non-invite level

[high current]

I was just going to ponder on for some reason the best players seem to like captain pugs

They probably just get to play 24/7 when they’re invite.

[next nymph]

I'm sorry for contributing to that, I need to be clear that I think the goal of growing the game is good. What I was arguing about was a lot more rhetorical, but I think I should've done better to recognize that I was jumping into an argument late and things always get a bit heated then

[high current]

I think rng teams is just the most accessible way to form a pug roster. Obviously not perfect, but elo takes tuning to get even remotely right and I don’t think I’ve seen a good implementation in tf2 yet.

[next nymph]

it probably helps that they'd know a decent chunk of their likely teammates at that point

[high current]

Right

Meanwhile I have no clue who any of the people in IM are

[next nymph]

you can also play 24/7 in lobbies with randos assuming they're active enough, after all

[jagged pawn]

why would comp players intentionally force themselves to play a dogshit mode lol

I don't even get what you're trying to say here. why was the utter failure of nr6s not enough, why would it have to be the main mode for some point to be made

can you name like 3 weapons that are banned for this reason and not because no one likes fighting them even in casual

[left sand]

youre toxic

and i think you should feel ashamed

[jagged pawn]

this video is extremely old btw, I would generally recommend this one which is both more recent and by an adv player https://youtu.be/XkPZH-4UvW0

[cursive peak]

Anecdotal, but when I was playing and we were pugging by mumble hopping and grabbing anyone who wanted to join for in-house pugs, we found it worked out way better if both captains tried stacking vs trying to balance picks.

[broken haven]

inhouse com pugs sound fire

[left sand]

also i didnt advocate for nr 6s

i said to do what valve suggested

which is a nr, pick/ban system

so yeah

im so glad i get to have to make this point again

for the like 10th time today

of people saying

"yeah i hate when people advocate for doing exactly what valve wants in hopes that we grow the scene"

"fuck you for even suggesting that, you hate every 6s player dont you?"

[jagged pawn]

this was an advanced level player sandbagging in amateur and should not be used to discuss balance in any serious way. I don't even know why he was allowed to do this

[high current]

Sandbagging was only really taken seriously in RGL like 2 seasons ago. Which just moved all sandbagging from AM to IM so IM got absolutely decimated. I think this is the first season I’ve played in like 3 years where IM wasn’t ruled by a 4+ sandbagger team.

Ironically I think that video may have been IM the season they cracked down on sandbagging in AM and IM was PEAK sandbaggers

[stone linden]

i really liked the solar light demoknight attempt (especially pass time, so cool!) but that also felt a little bit like sandbagging to me

i don’t know the rest of the team well but based on the intros, it seemed like several players who were more advanced and just less active these days who wanted to do it for fun

[high current]

Demoknight sandbagger is more forgivable. But engi is just slow scout. Which at AM/IM is just scout

[stone linden]

like solar’s team had an invite medic or something

[high current]

Oh yeh they basically don’t restrict meds and I think it’s very not smart.

iirc the only way to get restricted of med is to win the div on med.

[next nymph]

I think solarlight has a strong claim to being the literal best demoknight out there. If it takes that to be able to play comp at any level, with the benefit of your opponent needing to improvise against your unconventional strats that wouldn't hold if demoknights became a known thing to deal with, it really just isn't viable

[stone linden]

at the end of the day, playing fun off strategies is cool but absurdly difficult in general if your pure skills are not just way better than your opponents to offset the strategic loss

[stone linden]

there’s a lot of debate about Odin going on so idk if Odin is better or cheating or what

but yeah strong claim indeed

[high current]

Demoknight being a cheater would be crazy 6s drama

Not unheard of though. I feel like most common cheating classes in comp are engi and pyro

[stone linden]

afaik he got caught cheating on heavy with interp changing or something. someone has also accused him of wall hacks with no evidence. some folks have accused him of turn scripts without much evidence, but solar says Odin’s turning looks legit

i don’t know all the latest drama on it

[jagged pawn]

yeah the vast majority of cited instances of full time offclassing are just someone who is extremely good at the game bullying children essentially lmao

it's such a shame because it distracts from the real instances of offclassing working, like the team who ran pyro in invite a few years back or the many teams that have started including sniper in their core rotation

I think the sandbagging incidents hurt the cause more than they help because it just makes it look like an insurmountable battle when it really isn't

[high current]

A team ran pyro vs my team ages ago and I ended up running candy cane on flank scout cuz my shtick was taking less damage than medic anyway.

[jagged pawn]

lmao

[high current]

That was pre loch. I think candy cane + loch = bad time

[jagged pawn]

oh dear

yeah that would not be a good move lmao

but yeah back when I played in collegiate we had a guy who was trying to make engi work for a while and just couldn't get there, but pyro actually was working pretty well. obviously low skill league but still

he plays marvel rivals now tho so 🤷

[left sand]

pyro in what role?

[jagged pawn]

we had him replacing a scout. I believe the invite team I was talking about had the pyro replacing a soldier? but I could be wrong

[left sand]

pocket or roamer? for how relevant that distinction is nowadays

[jagged pawn]

if it was soldier then it was def pocket

[left sand]

yeah that makes sense

[high current]

I feel like replacing scout would be my go to. Single sacs are kinda worthless vs anyone with a pulse, so having only 1 soldier is about as good as having no soldier.

While pyro can do scouts job okay and one scout is still very effective.

[left sand]

yeah that makes sense

flanker and offense scout were completely even more of a non distinction

[jagged pawn]

yeah I think where pyro can excel is in filling a role that for whatever reason can't be filled by the class actually designed for it lol. like with a class limit of 2 soldiers you can simply replace a scout with a pyro and now you have 2.5 soldiers and 1.5 scouts

obviously this is an oversimplification but this is how I conceptualize it

[left sand]

thats definitely interesting yeah

my main gripe though is i wish the pyro mains werent so turned off by 6s

[high current]

A lot of 6s soldiers in particular have 0 idea how to play against pyros. It’s actually kinda adorable

[left sand]

i feel like theres so much missing potential and its both an image problem thats on the casuals to better understand

[high current]

They either hold m1 at the pyro or just do nothing and basically curl up into the fetal position and get burnt to death.

[jagged pawn]

yeah I don't really blame the pyro players tho. like would you rather go play the game mode where half the teams you play against are gonna call you a shitter for even daring to play the class or would you rather just stick to hl

like I def don't disagree with you that 6s has a culture problem

[left sand]

but also obviously the format sometimes feels like it is there to scare people off. the long rules list, with conditions on offclassing sometimes, and then the community itself hating afterburn for some reason

yeah

[high current]

The problem with off classing full time is 6s is you need your team to trust you enough to do that. Which at low levels where teams typically change season to season, just isn’t going to happen. And at high level you’re probably going to be playing with people that are good enough that off classing would be hard on its own, but by that point you also probably have more time on a meta class than you do on the off classing anyway.

There’s the rare exception. But 99% of the time it just doesnt end up in the cards. But I think full time off classes are genuinely viable.

[jagged pawn]

I think finding 5 people that are willing to do play with you isn't that tough, it's finding 6 more people that are willing to play against you

[high current]

Except spy

Spy has the issue where if you are a known spy player, you become worthless on spy.

[left sand]

this is why i like dota. teams scrim against each other specifically to find out those sorts of annoying strats that they can learn to counter

[jagged pawn]

ehhhh, I don't think full time heavy or engi are really viable either. maybe on smaller maps

[high current]

Actually worse than worthless. Because if a team knows you’re on spy they’re just going to take the 6v5 against your team.

[left sand]

like theyre legitimately interested in simply learning about the game rather than being scared in finding those annoying things

i get theres 0 incentive to do that in tf2 since theres no scene but i think we need to start somewhere

[jagged pawn]

I've been getting into pokemon tcg lately and I love how they have the same mindset over there yeah. like if a bullshit deck is starting to get popular you don't get mad about it you just account for it in your deckbuilding

[high current]

Heavy would be a hard sell. Mostly because the GRU have a weird interaction with overheal where the GRU basically remove your buff instantly.
If that wasn’t a thing I think it would be viable.

Engi you’re pretty much locked into jag level 1s (haven’t seen this yet) or minis.

[jagged pawn]

I honestly think heavy/pyro/engi all have some very minor issues that end up holding them back and a pretty low stakes balance patch could immediately make them all much more viable

like I don't mean sweeping changes but like

why do soldier and demo have self damage resistance but not pyro and engi, for example

small stuff like that adds up

and just makes the offclasses feel wonky

[high current]

I’d agree. They’re not generalists so you can’t just slot them in

And yeh no self damage resist on pyro hurts. Pyro gunboats would be halarious

[jagged pawn]

LOL not quite what I mean but that would also be funny

[left sand]

i mean, i feel like the game needs to also change pace sometimes

i dont think a rocket jumping flow after a mid wipe should be the formula every game

or else every class will have a rocket jump

and just feel samey

[jagged pawn]

oh yeah I don't mean this as like a "simply make the offclasses faster" dw

[left sand]

i think pyro should be able to work even without det jumping

[small siren]

*i think pyro should

be able to work even

without det jumping*

- mcoms

[jagged pawn]

I just think that a lot of the things they have in their arsenal come with a catch of some kind which is never the case for the main classes

[left sand]

but it sure would be incredibly interesting to ALSO open that up fully

yeah i mean like

i think in JI they definitely made pyro extremely powerful and an absolute answer in CQC

and then they just nerfed him to shit

[jagged pawn]

yeah lmfao

blue moon and its consequences

dragon's fury was so fun

[left sand]

because theyre in this weird position where everyone will be not used to anything that wasnt part of the power levels in the last 10 years

and then like

if they even tune the power levels people will fundamentally be unable to play

and then they risk killing the entire game

which is why valve was so slow and risk averse i feel

and ultimately wanted the community to do things too

[jagged pawn]

I mean I could be totally wrong on this but I don't remember anyone saying pyro was too strong past the first month. like yes people definitely reflexively did this but by january/february they had gotten used to it, I don't think people were still calling for nerfs by then

[left sand]

im pretty sure i saw stuff like that

[jagged pawn]

in large numbers anyway

[left sand]

especially from scouts

[jagged pawn]

bc like obvi there's always someone

LOL that could make sense

[left sand]

because scouts were very much used to meatshot

but its like

nope

you cant do that anymore to pyro

[jagged pawn]

especially funny bc pyro doesn't even win the matchup you just have to turn your brain on

[left sand]

he has absolute full control over this range now

yeah like obviously if you use your mobility and flank and get the first shot off

then yeah you usually win, maybe you die to after burn but if youre being healed or know packs

then its not so much an issue

but yeah people were used to taking maybe like

30 dmg to pyro

not like 80 to 90 at least

in that situation

[jagged pawn]

yeah I remember them saying this in an interview a year or so ago, in their eyes the game is basically settled and they don't want to change anything about the formula which I think is a shame

[left sand]

i think thats just a mindset issue though

in terms of the community

i feel like the csgo community had the same issue

like around 2017 to 2019 maybe

and then 3kliksphillip came around

and he was a huge voice that fostered a more positive approach to looking towards patch notes from valve

and being more understanding

"valve, pls fix"

instead of the prevailing mindset before "WHAT THE FUCK VALVE WHAT IS THIS I GOT CSGO'D WHAT THE FUUUUUUCK FUCK YOUUU"

[jagged pawn]

I mean I think that's a pretty different situation to a game that hasn't been rebalanced in 6 years but yeah people are very annoying about the community updates

[left sand]

it went from csgo hating any changes to like

valve actively feeling comfortable to even reworking the game into cs2

[jagged pawn]

was searching for a bit lol finally found it https://trends.tf/player/76561197991387894/

this is the player that pulls out pyro sometimes in top games

their invite season they were using pyro to replace soldier, but since then it looks like they've also been using pyro to replace scout sometimes

worth mentioning that they're not even a pyro main (it's their 4th most played) so imagine an actual full time pyro trying to learn 6s and take it seriously

lots of potential there

here's some gameplay from that season https://youtu.be/4uECwV9n7Rw?si=h3S-5BVkM9lhT0KU&t=1369

they won the mid because pyro clutched lol

[radiant merlin]

all this discussion and even then nobody would have picked spy anyways

[tacit flare]

No love for Spy, no matter the mode.

[broken haven]

Discuss.

[high current]

Quagmire needs to be a spy main. Scout isn’t down bad enough.

I think there’s a missed opportunity for Stewie being medic. And IMO Brian seems more like engi than pyro, though I’m pretty sure they did that because “pyro not human xD”. I feel like Meg would be a more appropriate pyro.

[cursive peak]

All that when there's an undetectable hardware hack in the Soldier Skill Enhancer

And Tune Squad were onto something. The Space Jam theme song was far too powerful.

It is winning music, even moreso when mashed up with Gangnam Style.

F'rex, I was MvMing with some friends. We were stuck on a wave for a few attempts. I looped that mashup with it louder than the game audio. Breezed through the rest of the waves.

I can only imagine we all would've got Golden Pans had I also engaged the Soldier Skill Enhancer.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71AVaQI-_d8

[oblique tangle]

why are -nojoy and -nosteamcontroller still in the recommended launch options

[eternal haven]

skips useless garbage

maybe game loads a bit faster or something

[velvet raft]

does this imply that some
garbage is useful?

[left sand]

why wouldnt they be?

[compact spoke]

how

[velvet raft]

wow

[uncut spear]

cow

[velvet raft]

https://tenor.com/view/holy-cow-holy-cow-gif-25938150

[crisp cedar]

well you know the saying "one mans garbage another mans treasure"

[oblique tangle]

because im trying to play tf2 with a controller

[oblique tangle]

erm game still loads to main menu in <10 seconds

i guess it makes sense for the average user

[summer steeple]

iirc its slightly faster loads and slightly less ram usage

[drowsy marlin]

I always take off the -nojoy option. I prefer to have fun when I play TF2

[velvet raft]

10/10

[radiant merlin]

if nojoy is enabled i can still use controllers with steam input right?

[slender nexus]

Nojoy is for old Dinput controllers iirc

Steam input uses a different system

[velvet raft]

coal

[oblique tangle]

i'm confused by this

dx100 doesn't exist in tf2 and it's actually 95?

[summer steeple]

100 is unfinished on tf2's branch at least, not sure about other branches

its 95 with a bit of extra stuff iirc

[jagged pawn]

disabling nojoy should bring back quickplay

edit: thanks for the gold, kind stranger!

[haughty musk]

I didn’t read that fully

[left sand]

#1341124989881028798 message

if youre interested in playtesting Hazard Crew, please join the thread!

currently requires an epic games account for authentication since we arent on steam

use the itch.io app to install it, you can copy the URL into the launcher

and then you will get easy access to updates

[velvet raft]

will i get special cosmetics if i do that

[wild grove]

Hazard crew workshop

[eternal haven]

Does anyone understand why pov demos are choppier/glitchier than the actual game was while recording?

[rare creek]

I dont think so

[high current]

I think it might be related to server quality. But I’m likely wrong. The lower quality servers I’ve played on recently (teams having bootleg custom servers for scrims) have generally resulted in choppier demos.
I don’t think it’s the main cause, but it could be a contributing factor

Honestly with how jank the game is sometimes. If someone told me it was related to the scout’s pants fix I’d only be slightly surprised.

[limpid panther]

the glitching part only happens if you use gototick, if you play it normally, it looks ok besides old demos that inevitable break

[eternal haven]

Not at all

Try playing back a pov demo

It's very glitchy and very choppy compared to how the game is while playing

[limpid panther]

I've done that for about 200 hours, in my experience, which granted is a year old now, the choppyness only happens after you fuck with the playback in some way

it also happens randomly once every few hundred game boots for no apparent reason

but I assume you have already tried restarting the game

also happens if you have too much FPS, but that goes the same way for normal gameplay too, so I assume that's not it in your case

[eternal haven]

I feel like I'm being gaslit right now

I've spent probably over 1000 hours playing back pov demos (my own and others') as well as watching videos of people playing back pov demos

They are never not choppier and laggier than the real game is

I'm just wondering why

[left sand]

theres a lot of cases where demos are not smooth and they seem to be caused by configs

i havent been able to figure out why though

[eternal haven]

Yeah idk

Animations and entity position changes are just choppier and glitchier than in the real game

I get that it's possible to have smoother mouse movement in the real game than in the demo since it's only networked 66 times or whatever but for everything that's networked to you it should be possible to play it back exactly the same as how it happened

So I don't understand why that's so drastically different

[kind falcon]

no client movement prediction or something

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1279939366684332042/1326991857972019211/attachment.gif

[stuck locust]

in my experience it's inconsistent

sometimes the playback is perfect, other times it's choppy

seems to depend per-demo for me

[eternal haven]

It probably has more to do with the recording process than the playback

but I've never seen a pov demo that looks 'perfect'

or even very close

they're all bad

but for sure some are much worse than others

[stuck locust]

i think demo length might have something to do with it?

iirc with some demos i had, the longer they were the higher chance they had to playback awfully

[kind falcon]

wonder if anyone at valve has touched demos since hldm

[potent wolf]

theres actually a dedicated team at valve that is responsible for figuring out how to break demo compatibility in tf2 updates

[radiant merlin]

some architect's gonna see that, and it'll blow his mind

[wild grove]

Hmm, trying to figure out the map here, is this patagonia?

Its not easily recognisable and the most recent maps I haven't played is smissmas 2024.

[radiant merlin]

cashworks

[wild grove]

I freaking knew it, that was my first guess in my mind

blew it

[spring kestrel]

?

[sour oxide]

What happened to mcomfig 9.12? #announcements📰 message

[left sand]

still fiddling around with it

[rare creek]

uhhh.... YOU"RE NOTY SUPPOSEF TO FO THAT WITH A RELEASD CANDINATE???? POL>ICE???? HELLO??????????

[high current]

That read like a tweet from Donald trump.

[eternal haven]

niTeRUxMP

😨

[rare creek]

do you think hardware are like tops because they are hard and software are bottoms and firmware are switches because they are in-between hard and soft

[high current]

Nah it’s cuz hardware is hard. Software is fake. And firm is in between

[small siren]

*Nah it’s cuz hardware

is hard. Software is fake. And

firm is in between*

- peachestv

[high current]

Bars 🔥

[wintry marlin]

I'm a software engineer

I put the soft into software

[haughty musk]

Hardware because it’s a solid, software because it’s a gas, firmware if it’s a non-Newtonian fluid or just really small

[summer willow]

using scrap.tf and stuff is safe?

[summer willow]

my inventory is full and is really boring to melt duplicate weapons

[rare creek]

no

[high current]

I've known people who have used it to craft. I have trust issues so I'm paranoid itll accidentally mistake a strange for a normal item or something and make me cry

[summer willow]

how to get cool items in tf2

[summer willow]

i dont have strange items so 🤷

[eternal haven]

I mean you can look through the trade before you authorize it right

[summer willow]

yeah, theres also that

[eternal haven]

Like look at every item

It's definitely quicker than manually clicking through all the crafting

[summer willow]

the autoscrap thing is not working 😭

[light ivy]

https://www.reddit.com/r/tf2/comments/1jybx79/make_pyros_flame_particles_less_opaque/ anyone have an idea on how this person got the flames to look like the 2nd image?

all the replies are not helpful in the slightest

[soft lynx]

https://gamebanana.com/mods/348622

[burnt dragon]

cheating technically

I thought flamethrower fire being obstructive was intended

[light ivy]

the op claims to not be using that mod or any mod