#Team Fortress 2 Megathread - winter is the most chill time of year

1 messages · Page 97 of 1

velvet raft
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why don't you give it to me?

paper sluice
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not tradable trollfig

high current
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You may need to change the font's actual title casing using something like font forge. I'm not entirely sure, I haven't investigated it yet because I haven't yet fixed the fonts for linux in my huds because theres like 12 linux users that play tf2.
I believe the extra case-sensitivity for fonts in linux was introduced in the same update that released the SDK, so it is fairly recent.

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basically this:

image.png
distant mango
void slate
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Hey does anyone know why the loose cannon reloads slower?

void slate
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You know this seems very similar to the old cow mangler bug that gave it a 5% reload penalty

wild grove
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I don't see it.

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even if it is true, the difference is so miniscule that I can't see it (til "this 0.1 sec difference is what fucks me up and makes me play bad")

orchid sorrel
distant mango
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I can't believe that Linux support has gotten as convoluted as that.

high current
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Yeh Linux is a nightmare for huds

wild grove
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I hate this OS, it drives me to drink!!!!

summer willow
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most issues is just related to case sensitivity and quirk things that the games does different i guess

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if you use an filesystem that supports case insensitivity you could use as a way to mitigate

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and also increase a lit bittle of performance when playing windows games

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unfortunately btrfs doesnt support

high current
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I assume they changed the system they used to render fonts for linux, and IDK why

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Seems like a very non-human requirement to disallow spaces. I could see and argument both ways for case sensitivity

eternal haven
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I don't see any reason for case sensitivity in a font family name

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For files it makes sense

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Not for the names of the actual font families or faces internally

high current
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I agree, I moreso meant on the entire OS

summer steeple
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i assume the issues with fonts becoming worse is just a result of them messing with font rendering in the past few patches and just messing stuff up on accident

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didnt the last update change font rendering on windows?

rare creek
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i heard that what happened was that they started using a freetype library bundled with tf2 instead of the one bundled with steam on linux

summer steeple
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i know before that it was the overhaul to linux font rendering

void slate
potent wolf
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and are vendoring it on both OSes

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which broke linux fonts

summer steeple
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and yet windows doesn’t support emoji still iirc

rare creek
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because linux doesn't now

potent wolf
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it does you just have to delete the vendored libs steamhapp

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windows users stay losing

rare creek
potent wolf
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vac doesn't give a shit

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you can get away with so much

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so yeah i will try :)

wild grove
void slate
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Like the old cow mangler bug

eternal haven
slender sail
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Hi

velvet raft
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hello fellow human

uncut spear
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also saw this bruh

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this is so cool holy

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someone requested it for it to be for regular tf2

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not sure tho if anyone could just use this without any modification

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but I'll take the safe thought of no

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dang

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I'm fine with just the weapons having the glow tbh

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someone mentioned on the mod that a medic model was unidentifiable because of a bright glow

glass musk
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ok someone port this to live tf2

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because this is cool

kind falcon
glass musk
kind falcon
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🙏

eternal haven
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Happy 1 year anniversary bros

hoary geyser
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It's been a year already?

uncut spear
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back when I actually got into TF2 cause before that update, the performance was ass enough to drive me away even with comfig when I got my new PC 😍

uncut spear
wild grove
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If someone can make a gamebanana request for the live tf2 port, I'll dump all my points into it cuz I got nothing I can do with em.

radiant merlin
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thirdperson view looks cooler in medieval style

imagen.png
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rivals copied tf2

rare creek
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fortnite copied tf2

wild grove
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tf2 copied incredibles

void slate
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Does mat_picmip affect Texture LOD distance. Like one of the issues mat_picmip -10 resolves is that now upclose certain textures will now show their full detail.
My question is thought, would that affect at what distance the texture will start lowering its resolution?
Like yes at -10 the spray can will be at full resolution but won't it also still remain at full resolution at far distance because the ressource says that its not far enough to lower its resolution despite it should being at max resolution?
There was a fixpack that fixed the underlying problem that caused these textures now to display at full resolution at mat_picmip -1 (Very High Texture Quality) https://gamebanana.com/mods/198036
Maybe I misunderstand how it works but, I wonder if maybe mat_picmip -10 benefits can be achieved without a possible uncessary performance loss.

GameBanana
Mat_Picmip -10 Texture Fix Pack [Team Fortress 2] [Mods]

A texture pack that fixes some unnecessarily blurry textures for a real mat_picmip -10 experience.... A Team Fortress 2 (TF2) Mod in the Packs category, submitted by deprecated

rare creek
eternal haven
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Idk if it's true or not

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But it at least seems like it should be

left sand
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it's mip bias

eternal haven
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So setting it higher/lower would cause higher/lower mips at any distance right?

left sand
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you'll have to know how mipmapping works to know what closeness/farness does with mipping

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oh and i guess also know: cant go below 0 mip (original texture), the texture contains a mip bias, and then the user setting is added on top of that

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so essentially, if a texture is aggressively down mipped, and then up mipped, its not necessarily true that the texture will clamp up to 0

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but, any texture that is not down mipped, can clamp up to 0 a lot and be pinned there

eternal haven
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I guess which mip level is selected depends on more than just distance?

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like there's some screenspace-like element to it?

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At least toggling mat_mipmaptextures seems to have just as noticable of an effect on far away textures with mat_picmip -10 as it does with -1

uncut spear
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dude cancelled the request

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that's why I said it needed a small team at the least

summer steeple
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there's got to be a better way than manually doing it like that

small sirenBOT
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*there's got to be a

better way than manually

doing it like that*

- treacherousfiend
uncut spear
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i also could just suck it up and play tf2c anyways

summer steeple
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presuming this is accurate, it seems like there's no difference except in the 3d skybox???

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and overlays but i'm more likely to chalk that up to a weird error

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oh also here's the colors for each mip

image.png
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for some reason -10 seems to use a 1 lower mip for the 3d skybox?

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hm well actually it only replaces the mipmap texture for dxt1, dxt5, ati1n, and ati2n textures, for everything else it does something different to color them, which might account for differences

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actually more than just the 3d skybox seems to differ between -1 and -10 with this cvar i'm noticing

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i really am not very knowledgeable in this subject I just remembered this cvar and thought i would be neat to show no difference between -1 and -10 but I guess i was wrong!

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best guess based on one specific snippet of code I read is that the code that determines which mip should be shown starting at a lower number than is usually expected might mess with how it calculates which mip is shown

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but I also don't think that the differences between -1 and -10 are even noticeably, at least at my resolution, I'm trying to zoom in as far as I can and compae and it just looks identical to me

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even using a color picker it seems identical

eternal haven
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I wonder why -1 even exists

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Like why isn't it 0, 1, 2, 3 for the very high, high, medium, low

summer steeple
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are compares against 0 faster than compares against -1?

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thats my best guess

left sand
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-1 is higher than that

eternal haven
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I guess I don't really follow

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I understand why bias -1 could use higher resolution textures at a distance

left sand
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if youve ever done texture biases, itd make sense as to why you wanna make them at budget and how itd be harder if you had to count down from highest spec

eternal haven
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But in tf2 most textures even extremely close only use the full resolution at -1

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not with 0

left sand
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i mean thats a variety of reasons

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but usually you dont want a source texture being displayed in general, when youre budgeting

eternal haven
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Maybe I'm missing something but it seems like with mat_picmip 0 almost no textures ever use mip 0

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they all seem to use mip 1

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at least the noticeable ones

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even super close up

left sand
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yes its about mip bias that the artist selects then user preference

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i would assume the default mip bias, as is usually done, is 1

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such that the source texture imported isnt used

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its like high poly vs low poly

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and then the textures are tuned from that baseline

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either higher or lower

eternal haven
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Why do the results of mat_picmip -1 look basically identical to mat_picmip -10 for most textures at most distances?

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I wonder if mat_picmip -1 with a bias equivalent to -9 forced externally in the graphics driver would look identical to mat_picmip -10?

left sand
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because bias cant go above 0

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overall

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in the renderer

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in the driver you can

summer steeple
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cops whenever you do soemthing they don't like

image.png
eternal haven
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Okay I think that makes sense to me

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There's some internal default bias of 1 which is why there's a huge difference between mat_picmip 0 and -1 for pretty much every texture

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but the internal bias can't go negative past a certain point (0 or -1 or whatever) so there's not really a difference between mat_picmip -1 and -10 for most textures, even far away ones

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Is that more or less what you mean?

left sand
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yeah

eternal haven
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Not really related to this discussion but I wonder why positive mat_picmip performs worse than 0 on dxlevel 9 but not on dxlevel 8

velvet raft
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preferably an ace one

uncut spear
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DUDE

tacit flare
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Taunts that fully embrace the amazing personalities of each class? Hell yes!

uncut spear
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EXACTLY

limpid panther
rare creek
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oh that's cringe they don't let you subscribe to any taunts on the tf2 workshop ☹️

uncut spear
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???

crisp cedar
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lol

orchid sorrel
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he also has another hud mod called chud

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and all of his screenshots feature him with a white executioner

grim parcel
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chudhud

uncut spear
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oh yeah was gonna ask

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is there still a major difference having a mod in folder form vs vpk form

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esp if you have an ssd

left sand
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ya

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has very little to do with disk tbh

uncut spear
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oh?

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you can just point to another post someone made about this btw

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don't wanna force you to type out smthn

summer steeple
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iirc its that vpk just has like a table of contents for the game to use, whereas loose requires it to go through and find everything

uncut spear
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finally a response

wild grove
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yeah which is why if you get that error where too many VPKs cause the text to break, you put them into catagorized multi pack VPKs so they don't break but it does make it harder to update stuff in custom

uncut spear
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teehee

wild grove
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that will work too.

void slate
tacit flare
high current
wintry marlin
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If spy was trans would scout be a chaser

radiant merlin
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i got this achievement with the normal stickybomb launcher

imagen.png
orchid sorrel
stone linden
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can someone explain what autostrafe is? someone accused me of that today and i have no idea what this is

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cheating to make air strafing easier? but i dont get the point?

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maybe they just don’t know what w strafing is?

left sand
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i would assume its doing perfect angled strafing when you turn

high current
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I was thinking maybe something like auto bhop.
There are specific view angles and strafe inputs that maximize speed gained, which changes with your current speed.
So maybe they just watched a quake speedrunning video or something, because I’ve never heard of something like that in TF2

kind falcon
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id assume its them seeing people go in directions their character isnt facing yet still strafing to

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hence the sideways strafe

oblique tangle
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italian chef pov

stone linden
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oh yeah so it is probably just w strafing in my case. they probably just didn’t know that w strafing is a thing. you can even do arbitrary strafes manually with a gamepad

mystic anchor
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:D

summer willow
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for a moment i was asking if its possible to hit more than 1 with a swing

terse lintel
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I've been fiddling trying to get the particle editor to work and I can't figure out what Im doinf because the particle system doesn't work in tf2

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opening tf2 with -tools leaves me with only the console

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i'm just trying to add a 10-15sec persistent particle immediately created when a crit rocket is fired

left sand
uncut spear
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pretty sure quake live has that

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where you hold w, bhop, then use mainly your mouse to strafe I think

void slate
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Benchmarked the mat_picmip fixpack (https://gamebanana.com/mods/198036) to see if it increases performance for better quality textures, it seems it does, but I'm confused on how at mat_picmip -10, I get better performance than mat_picmip -1. I use the shounic benchmark on mastercomfig.

📎 TF2_Mat_picmip_fixpack_benchmarks.odt
GameBanana
Mat_Picmip -10 Texture Fix Pack [Team Fortress 2] [Mods]

A texture pack that fixes some unnecessarily blurry textures for a real mat_picmip -10 experience.... A Team Fortress 2 (TF2) Mod in the Packs category, submitted by deprecated

eternal haven
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to use the tools

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try opening tf.exe (not tf_win64.exe) with the options -force32bit -tools

high current
# void slate Benchmarked the mat_picmip fixpack (https://gamebanana.com/mods/198036) to see i...

My guess would be that if your GPU is good enough to display all textures at maximum quality, then using higher quality lod just means less checks/transitions to lower textures.
IIRC lod is mainly a graphics memory optimization, so modern GPUs probably have wayyyyyy more than enough memory to not be concerned with memory on TF2.
Probably same reason that texture streaming doesn’t improve and can even decrease performance on over powered GPUs.

Of course I’m a smooth brain so this could all be 100% incorrect.

eternal haven
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It could just be margin of error too

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The variance in your tests is just about as big as the differences between them

void slate
eternal haven
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Yeah but something is inconsistent with your computer to have such big variances

high current
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I couldn’t open the benchmarks on mobile

eternal haven
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Like 3% variance from one run to the next is not normal

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Unless you have excessive background stuff

void slate
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All I had open was Libre Office in the background to record the benchmarks

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And Steam

high current
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Were you connected to internet?

void slate
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When I was benchmarking, I tried switching the texture setting in-game and did change the results

high current
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When I’d benchmark hud stuff I usually unplug my internet, wait for my computer to finish complaining about not having internet, then run my tests.
I’d also usually have 1000-5000 instances of the hud element I was benchmarking because hud stuff is very low impact usually.

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Because computers do weird junk all the time and disconnecting them from internet gives them less options for doing weird stuff

void slate
eternal haven
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It could be thermal issues or laptop power saving features

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leading to big variances like that

void slate
high current
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I think even with fully disabled telemetry through pretty in-depth registry edits Microsoft still does phone home stuff.
Could be worth trying

void slate
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Of course my Gpu runs through the iGPU

eternal haven
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Idk

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On my laptop I usually have under 0.5% variance from one timedemo run to the next

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usually under 0.3% even

void slate
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Could you do the test then real quick see if there is a difference, since its seems I;m not able too

eternal haven
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even with steam online

eternal haven
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Test whether mat_picmip -10 leads to margin of error-tier better performance than mat_picmip -1?

void slate
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If the Fixpack improves performance or has worse performance, and if mat_picmip -10 is worse performing then mat_picmip -1

eternal haven
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I think like peaches said on any modern gpu it just doesn't matter

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short of that weird bug with the positive bias

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apart from that bug, any mat_picmip setting is either the same in performance or so close it's not worth worrying about

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like 1% difference between mat_picmip 2 and 0, and 1% between mat_picmip 0 and -1 or -10

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on almost any modern gpu that people would be using in tf2 these days

void slate
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Okay well i have 1050ti 4Gb, and I'm sure i'm far from the only one

eternal haven
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mat_picmip only really matters much for super super old gpus or some igpus

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or low vram like 1gb or 2gb I guess you could run out of memory

void slate
small sirenBOT
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*I used SpecialK

and it said I was running

out of VRAM at -10*

- atomictem
void slate
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but don't when I'm at -1 with the fixpack

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the timedemo benchmark doesn't measure framtime or stuterring

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which VRAM heavily affects

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I used the becnhmark to try and measure it

eternal haven
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I guess I don't really understand the point of this 'fix pack' now that you're once again allowed to set mat_picmip -10

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Anyone who wants the max resolution level for every texture can set mat_picmip -10

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Anyone who wants them clamped as intended can set -1

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No need for the mod

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Which doesn't work in pure anyways

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Or is there a visual difference with and without the mod even on mat_picmip -10?

void slate
# eternal haven Or is there a visual difference with and without the mod even on mat_picmip -10?

mat_picmip -10 is not a valid settings, it was meant for debugging, TF2 and all source game were designed with mat_picmip -1 to 2 in mind, its the option that are accessed in the in-game video settings.
At -1 all textures should be at max resolution up close, and of course at further distances be lower resolution to prevent texture overdraw. mat_picmip -10 prevents textures from the engine/game from assuming the resolution correct resolution of texrue should be at longer distances, and too load texture at higher resolution when you cannot see the detail thus causing texture overdraw.
Valve re-enabling mat_picmip -10 was the lazy way into fixing the issues of textures not displaying ever at their maximum resolution ever.

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With the Fixpack it seems I can get the same texture quality as mat_picmip -10 without the Extar VRAM needed and possible performance loss and stuterring

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If Valve simply fixed teh 707 texture to have proper LOD settings we wouldn't need to use a hacky unoptimized solution

eternal haven
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I think those textures are intended to be clamped the way they are

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And are you sure mat_picmip -10 uses more memory than using this mod with mat_picmip -1?

void slate
eternal haven
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Like margin of error or significantly?

void slate
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Significant enough from 3.7GB to 4.1-4.2

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and going over 4gb for me means running out of VRAM

small sirenBOT
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*and going over

4gb for me means

running out of VRAM*

- atomictem
void slate
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And that was in the map supertest with alls bots on

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And when i tested on upward the gap was worse (valve server 14 players)

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I wanted to make sure with the benchmark, that I wasn't nuts

eternal haven
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Do you think it's really 'accidental' on valve's part to have these textures clamped like that?

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When you raise the clamp or use mat_picmip -10, you raise the quality of some textures in game while not changing the quality of others

void slate
eternal haven
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Some textures become too high resolution compared to other textures

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I think the clamps are the artists' intention

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It makes the texture detail consistent throughout the game

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When you raise the clamps, the texture detail is inconsistent

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Some textures on little objects are way more detailed than other textures in the game on bigger objects

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It doesn't look very good

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It looks more irregular

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I wonder how the mod creator decided which textures to raise the lod clamp on and which to not mod

void slate
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So from what little I;ve gathered the person who re-exported just messed up he LOD just didn't know about or just used the default settings which ended up having just releasing all these values

eternal haven
void slate
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You would think that the clamping would be based on model size, but many of the texures affected go from the Intel to huge office chairs to landscapes

eternal haven
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VTF had multiple LODs prior to 7.3 for sure

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Do you mean the clamp fields in the header

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Maybe those were added in 7.3

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But like if you open textures from half life 2 a lot of them are VTF 7.1 and they have multiple levels of detail

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multiple mip levels

void slate
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Indeed but the specific cause of this was introduced in 7.3

eternal haven
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So the Clamp U and Clamp V settings?

void slate
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compared to -1

void slate
eternal haven
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So you're saying it was a complete accident that valve went out of their way to add this feature and then went on to use it for some of the art in tf2 to make the level of detail more consistent?

void slate
eternal haven
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It seems like valve is using this feature in tf2 intentionally

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I don't see any reason to believe their use of it is not intentional

void slate
# eternal haven It seems like valve is using this feature in tf2 intentionally

Look other games like left 4 dead portal and portal 2 have these, and in those the UV clamp is like defined in the valve wiki
"An U/V LOD control. This is the highest mipmap which should be loaded when the game's Texture Detail setting is "High" (mat_picmip 0). An U LOD Control value of 11 will select the mipmap which is 2048 pixels (211) across at the "High" texture setting, and 4096 pixels across at the "Very High" (mat_picmip -1) texture setting. "

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-1 is max resolution of the textures

heavy solarBOT
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@void slate has leveled up! (7 ➜ 8)

levelup.png
eternal haven
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That describes how the feature works

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But I don't see how it tells me that valve's use of it in tf2 is not intentional

void slate
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Because its in no way consistent

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And new textures valve or the community apart from those textures works that way, or in new titles

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A feature introduced with TF2, that was possibly used haphazardly

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before they fully grasped it

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the people who add features like that aren't the same as those who make the textures and use the setting

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It happens

eternal haven
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I guess with how many world textures it's used on I can see your point

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If they only had like textures that usually appear on small objects clamped lower, I would say it's definitely intentional

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but it does seem to be pretty random in the way its used on world textures

void slate
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Exactly not mention, the re-introduction of mat_picmip -10 was done after 10 years if it not existing, why would valve remove that feature for 10 years if t was so essential

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And why would they not have an explicit option to use -10 in the video settings even now?

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Because TF2 wasn't designed with -2 to -10 because its for debugging

eternal haven
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Can you at least appreciate that using a 1024x1024 texture on a big wall and using a 1024x1024 texture on a little spray can results in an inconsistent detail level

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and it makes sense to clamp the texture on the little object to a lower resolution

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So that the detail density is more consistent

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But I agree that it doesn't make sense to have some world textures clamped to a different level than some other extremely similar world textures that look to be the same size

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Like that part seems random

void slate
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even 1k is not that bad, it still overboard, but its fine even for 2007

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2k would be too much

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All the max resolution of texture are already properly sized since have the max resolution texture fit the size of the model was standard practice in game developement for years prior to TF2

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In fact the biggest problem usually was having texture with too small resolution of walls and such

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Which is the case for TF2 texture for its characters and brushed and walls

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there all 1K, though with 2023 leak we found out that the original PSD for the mercs is 2K

eternal haven
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But having the little props be super high res just makes that more apparent

void slate
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the telephones are also 512, and many other props not affected not affected by the issue are also 512

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you know the inconsistent part of the problem

eternal haven
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And for a lot of the little props even if you used the 256x256 level they would still have more dense detail than the big textures around them, and using the 512 just makes that even more apparent

void slate
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Like with the mercs the intended resolution is 2k but they released it at 1K

void slate
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New texture utilize better compression usually

eternal haven
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I think it's possible that valve really intended for some textures in tf2 to not use their highest mip level

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and maybe some (most?) are accidental like you're saying

void slate
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It doesn't make sense to do it this way

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The clamp is for LODs not pick and choose quality

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especially so inconsistently

eternal haven
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I wonder if that leak of some of the tf2 resources and art would shed light on it

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maybe a bunch of the lower clamped textures were all modified at a similar time or something

void slate
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They set the maximum thorough just exporting a lower resolution

void slate
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Some textures are fine in older builds

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other aren't

eternal haven
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You mean for a given texture they have changed the clamp value

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over its history in tf2?

void slate
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Beleive I;ve been trying to restore the old high poly weapons models

void slate
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Some change, back and forth, other didn't, and always conincided with .vmt changes only

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Seemed just they internal tool for exporting texture was setup wrong

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Again its only consistency, and even then not consistent,

small sirenBOT
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*Again its only

consistency, and even

then not consistent,*

- atomictem
void slate
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Valve developement and maitaining if TF2 assets has always been spotty

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Heck from 2010 to 2014 they downgraded the quality of all the weapon to save on performance becasue there coede was unoptimized, excetp that it barely saved any performance at huge quality drop

left sand
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how do you know the intended thing isnt what they shipped with for the 2k vs 1k characters

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valve's biggest effort was tf2 character design

void slate
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They didn't fix the underlying problem they jsut patched around it

left sand
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read up on texel density btw

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i think itll make you change your mind

eternal haven
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Are you talking to me or Atomic

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I am arguing for texels to be relatively consistently sized

left sand
eternal haven
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rather than some huge ones and some tiny ones

void slate
left sand
void slate
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thats my point

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The released the mercs with 1k textures instead using the clamp system

left sand
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why is the source texture resolution relevant

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i can tell you that for example every unreal engine game has textures clamped to the game resolution from the source resolution

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and the source resolution is stripped

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its totally intentional for any game engine to strip those for performance and space

eternal haven
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It seems like there is at least some accidental stuff happening in tf2

void slate
eternal haven
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I think it's intentional for the textures for small props to be clamped

void slate
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They did it through just exporting the textures at lower resolutions

eternal haven
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but it does seem plausible that it's unintentional that world_texture_004 is clamped to 8 while world_texture_005 is clamped to 9

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when both are the same size and look the same and are meant to be used on the same stuff

void slate
#

The clamp system was just a new system they didn't realize was being use which screwed up old how mat_picmip is supposed to work

#

-1 being all the texture are max resolution up close

#

-10 causes textures to remain at higher resolution at long distance

#

Fixing the clamp on all 707 textures would allow for high quality textures up close without the performance hit

#

This is bug and not intended, because the application of clamping is inconsistent for this 707 textures compared with the rest of TF2 and similar sized models and texture and prop and walls etc, its even incosistent with how the clamping is used in later games where there is no such issue

#

And you look though old TF2 builds even the current textures have differnt vallues sometimes the correct one sometimes or different

#

The re-introduction of mat_pcimip -10 was to fix this issue as lazily as possible because maybe there is more then 707 texture, so far I haven't any more then these 707, but Valve would likely want to go through all there 10,000+ texture to make sure

#

So instead of doing that, they re-introduced mat_picmip -10

#

that makes the most sense to me

left sand
#

so youre saying mat picmip should be unbound by clamp by using the new setting, so it can go higher than artist intended texture size

eternal haven
#

The thing is there really is randomness to how some of them are clamped

void slate
#

that's it

eternal haven
#

For many of the world textures there is no apparent rhyme or reason for the clamp setting

left sand
#

youre basically saying for example mat_picmip 0 has 1k textures for characters, and -1 has 1k textures, but it should have 2k textures?

void slate
#

Heck before this fix pack, the wayb to fix these texture was to upscale them

#

because people didn't understand the clamp system or how to change back then

left sand
#

i think personally theres a difference between mip bias and max resolution

#

both are good levers

void slate
left sand
#

is that how it's designed? -1 goes up to max regardless?

#

i thought it offset by a mip

#

if not, then -10 wouldnt do anything

void slate
#

It did nothing in Half Life 2

left sand
#

i don't think that makes sense in terms of mip bias

#

well I assume in hl2 they didnt have anything stored beyond the default mip bias

void slate
left sand
#

i dont think a game max resolution is hacky

eternal haven
#

Mastercoms can you justify why for example materials/concrete/computerwall005d has clamp u and clamp v 9 while materials/concrete/computerwall005e has them at 8

left sand
#

its a totally valid setting

eternal haven
#

There are hundreds of world textures like this

void slate
eternal haven
#

That's what is plausibly unintentional

left sand
#

i dont know the artistic decision, its not entirely a mechanical rule

#

but different textures have different high/low frequency patterns

#

and it could just be 2 artists with 2 different subjective opinions

#

but the matter is, if the artists decided it looked good

void slate
#

Why would you waste hard drive on bundling a texture that 99% players can't see because the setting to do so is a console command

left sand
#

its never gonna be a hard rule about mechanically deciding some uniform number

void slate
eternal haven
#

Idk

#

it really seems like some of the clamps are intentional, and most of them are not

void slate
eternal haven
#

after actually looking through which textures are clamped differently than others

left sand
#

i would say that the artists probably looked at the texture and said it looks good, and it depends on what number they started at

#

and also depending on optimization passes on whatever map

#

functionally i dont think we can judge it based on numeric differences and resolution only

#

thats only a starting point

void slate
#

TF2 is the only game that has this issue, past and present

#

It was the game this thing was introduced with

left sand
#

portal, ep2?

void slate
#

VTF 7,3 was introduced with the orange box

void slate
#

And those are also inconsistent

#

and have been fixed

#

TF2 is only game the has the problem

#

Plus mat_picmip -10 didn;t exist for 10+ years

#

and only got re-introduced after shounic made a video on it

#

It was re-introduced to let players have the high res texture up close again

#

it was a workaround instead of solving the actual prblem

#

because we only have 2 devs

#

who probaby didn;t want to go through the possible 10000+ textures

eternal haven
#

I don't understand how you can justify using the max resolution for every single texture in tf2 (you don't know that the arists intended) or how you could justify having insanely similar textures clamped differently than their neighbors

#

I think the actual solution is somewhere in the middle

left sand
#

im not necessarily arguing for every specific case I'm just throwing out reasons

eternal haven
#

The clamps as they are currently serve to make some texels more consistently sized and some less consistently sized

left sand
#

also its not because shounic made a video

eternal haven
#

The fix mod is both good and bad

void slate
eternal haven
#

It makes some texels more consistently sized than they are now, and some less

left sand
#

the mat picmip problem was entirely a memory thing

#

and was entirely based upon a few things, one being mac mostly, but also linux + opengl/togl in general

void slate
left sand
#

as well as i think on windows just a general concern of memory usage

#

and then that went away with the work they were doing on memory and such

void slate
left sand
#

and dropping mac support

#

so its mostly resuming support for that setting

#

rather than revisiting the argument about texture settings in general

void slate
eternal haven
#

They had mat picmip ifdef'd per platform way before they dropped mac support

left sand
#

i think you misunderstand a few things about that

#

anyways my larger point is that functionally theres no other way to do this but to have artists reassess the decisions they made

void slate
eternal haven
#

I think it's both

left sand
#

because you cant simply say to the artists that they were obviously wrong

eternal haven
#

some textures have the wrong settings, some textures have intended settings and the 'fix mod' violates the arists' intentions for those

left sand
#

not just functionally is that wrong, its also politically wrong

#

you need to know the valve purism perspective

#

they shipped what they wanted to ship

#

and any changes post ship are an ongoing assessment of theirs about the decisions they made on ship

#

you cant say anything is wrong until they fix it

void slate
left sand
#

there cant be a blanket rule that some guy randomly does where they set all world textures by a certain size to a certain mip bias

eternal haven
#

I think they just willy nilly changed -1 to -10 because people started talking about it

#

probably not much thought went into that

left sand
void slate
left sand
#

you should be thinking about what the limitations were for slapping on the -1

#

they simply removed that and restored the original behavior

void slate
left sand
#

its not necessarily a decision about the textures

#

its a decision about removing the -1 limitation

void slate
#

Yes, but the behaviour wasn't wrong, its the clamp setting on the texture

eternal haven
#

I don't think valve wants people to use -10, they just allowed it again to do a nice thing for a vocal minority of players

left sand
#

^

void slate
left sand
#

i mean -10 was probably a random number to begin with

#

just to have a limit

#

and people found that

void slate
left sand
#

and they just want max quality

eternal haven
#

Probably -2 does most of the same things that -10 does

void slate
#

Its not that deep

left sand
#

yeah

void slate
left sand
#

but ig my point is that its just so much work to ask valve to get an artist to review that

eternal haven
#

In your fix mod most of the clamps just get raised by 1

left sand
#

i think what ends up happening in that discussion is that they just say "why dont we just do all of this for source 2"

eternal haven
#

Team Fortress 3: Source 2

void slate
left sand
#

and they just put it off to the indefinite timing of when theyll make a tf2 source 2 port

void slate
#

To have high quality texture without the performance loss

left sand
#

but what im saying is that artistically, there is no right

#

its whatever they decided

eternal haven
#

Do you think the maker of this mod went through all textures manually or just programmatically bumped up the clamps in certain conditions

left sand
#

the numbers dont matter

eternal haven
#

by looking at the existing clamp and number of mips and highest mip res

left sand
#

the numbers are simply there to get a desired artistic outcome

left sand
left sand
#

and theyd rather just put that off to when they review all the art and answer a lot of questions about the stylization of tf2 within a modern setting

void slate
left sand
#

yes but tf2 is a special case i feel

#

the texture pipeline was different

void slate
left sand
#

tf2 isnt photo bashed

#

its concept art bashed

void slate
left sand
#

so theres probably way more inconsistency

#

vs. hl2 or portal

void slate
#

And no they made concept art, deisgned ,and redesigned until they were happy, over a decade, which duing which a new system was introduced that they clearly didn't bother using because or seemed to use accidently, because most textures are vtf 7.2 and very few used 7.3 and the clamp is used inconsistently, both model size, style wise etc

#

The detail of the texture is in teh texture itsled not its lower resoltion, you want something to look faded you make it look faded, not lower its resolution, which it was they did

#

the spray testure looks faded and used at max resoltion I can see the wear and tear the scratches that can't be seen at lower resolutions

left sand
#

this gets into information theory but resolution scaling with the right algorithm can absolutely be used artistically to adjust detail

#

and vtf uses the right algorithm

void slate
eternal haven
#

Can you see how indiscriminately raising the clamp for all 707 textures or whatever will lead to some instances of the detail density being less consistent, not more? Obviously for some instances it will make it more consistent, but for some it will make it less.

left sand
#

how is it not intended for them to set something

void slate
#

why lower the resolution through the clamp instead of jsut lowering the actual texture resolution, which guess what is what they did, as proved by the TF2 mercs textures, the leaked PSDs were 2L, the in-game texture is 1K

left sand
#

it depends on what they thought the tool most suitable was

eternal haven
#

Why would they even add that clamp feature to the vtf spec

void slate
void slate
eternal haven
#

Isn't it reasonable to use them then?

left sand
#

so every setting must be used on every single texture or else its inconsistently used and therefore bad

void slate
# eternal haven Isn't it reasonable to use them then?

They do use them, their are thousands of TF2 that are vtf 7.3 and above nut these 707 are the only onces that are not consistent, even within valve own textures and methods of the time and past and future games ,and in TF2 itself

void slate
eternal haven
#

How are you able to come to the conclusion that every single one of the 707 textures have the wrong setting

#

I can in good faith say that a large amount of them, at least to me, appear to be set with no rhyme or reason

#

but I absolutely cannot claim that for all 707

#

there are some that seem reasonable

void slate
#

Even the Valve wiki states this, valves past and future games follow this rule

left sand
#

i think itd be more clear to you if you actually did a mip bias pass in a game

#

thats not how at all anyone thinks when theyre doing a mip bias pass

#

sure, knowing user texture quality settings is relevant but thats all (knowing relatively the range of highest to lowest max mip based on user setting vs. max exported texture size)

#

but largely the the mip bias is decided within a huge context not based on the max resolution

void slate
#

So when people who want to see the textures at their highest quality deserves to lose extra performance unecessarily

#

And Valve hand tweaked these 707 textures but not any others

#

This makes total sense (sarcasm)

eternal haven
#

Mat_picmip -1 with Fix Pack:

5032 frames 61.128 seconds 82.32 fps (12.15 ms/f) 9.537 fps variability
5032 frames 60.131 seconds 83.68 fps (11.95 ms/f) 8.866 fps variability
5032 frames 60.407 seconds 83.30 fps (12.00 ms/f) 8.878 fps variability
5032 frames 60.262 seconds 83.50 fps (11.98 ms/f) 8.955 fps variability
5032 frames 60.673 seconds 82.94 fps (12.06 ms/f) 8.891 fps variability
5032 frames 61.816 seconds 81.40 fps (12.28 ms/f) 9.077 fps variability
5032 frames 59.985 seconds 83.89 fps (11.92 ms/f) 8.919 fps variability

Mat_picmip -10 without Fix Pack:

5032 frames 59.125 seconds 85.11 fps (11.75 ms/f) 10.258 fps variability
5032 frames 58.558 seconds 85.93 fps (11.64 ms/f) 9.282 fps variability
5032 frames 59.189 seconds 85.02 fps (11.76 ms/f) 9.122 fps variability

#

Assuming it's not margin of error

#

Bottom is the current situation in tf2 if you want to see the max res mip for every texture indiscriminately

void slate
eternal haven
#

Top is the situation if valve were to add your fix mod into the base game

#

I think it's margin of error if anything

void slate
#

because I have 1050ti 4gb, and I'm not the only one

#

So If I can have TF2 looking better at no performance cost, which isn't only determined by FPS, I would like that

eternal haven
#

Will using mat_picmip -1 with these 707 clamps raised a notch perform better (or use less memory) than mat_picmip -10 (or just -2)?

#

I'm not sure I guess it would be worth looking into but idk it just doesn't seem like it's that big of a deal

void slate
eternal haven
#

The game is smooth for you with this mod and mat_picmip -1, but it becomes unsmooth if you set mat_picmip -2?

void slate
eternal haven
#

I think the mod only raises clamps by 1

void slate
#

and that still leads to some textures going staying at a higher resolution then they should

eternal haven
#

I guess it wouldn't be hard to check

void slate
void slate
eternal haven
void slate
# eternal haven What

You imply the fixpack raises the value by one, implying that the issue is consistent, when its not.

#

Its explained on the modpage

eternal haven
#

In every file I looked at it raised the clamps each by 1

void slate
#

and on the valve wiki

eternal haven
#

But I didn't look at every single of the 700 files

small sirenBOT
#

*But I didn't look

at every single of the

700 files*

- mysterious_eagle_46873
void slate
eternal haven
#

Alright then mat_picmip -3 or -4 or whatever it is

#

Who cares

#

Is there actually a performance difference between whatever value that ends up being vs. -1 with the mod?

void slate
#

because it rendering textures at a distance a higher resolution, even though I cannot see the detail of those textures at that distance

summer steeple
terse lintel
eternal haven
#

I seem to remember having to place pcf files in tf/particles/ to actually open them

#

I can't remember if it was for that reason or another

rare creek
#

wtf a drive

#

tf2 on da flopy disk

eternal haven
#

@rare creek I am going to put you on a floppy disk

rare creek
eternal haven
#

dang

terse lintel
#

cuz windows stinky

#

and I'm running out of things I am comfortable nuking

#

so it might be clean install time soon

eternal haven
#

I don't know why but the particle editor doesn't let you save unless you open a pcf file from /tf/particles

#

if it's outside of the tf2 folder it just doesn't like that

small sirenBOT
#

*if it's outside of

the tf2 folder it

just doesn't like that*

- mysterious_eagle_46873
terse lintel
#

lol

#

I see

velvet raft
terse lintel
#

IT WORKS

#

thank you many

rare creek
#

I used to load particle files all the time from my extracted tf2 folder and saving them worked perfectly fine

terse lintel
#

so it needs to be in a particle folder but only some will work (I tried sfm and sourceSDK content)

#

?

rare creek
#

ayte

terse lintel
#

dang this is fiddly and crashy

eternal haven
#

Idk

#

All I remember is it bitched at me and then I put the file in tf/particles and it just worked

#

Maybe you can open a file from anywhere and 'save as' into the particles folder?

#

Cant remember if I tried that or not

terse lintel
#

just various things like trying to copy a particle system definition into a different child particle

#

clicking the wrong button when looking for a specific particle

eternal haven
#

I wonder if the people who make particle mods are gatekeeping a secret tool or if they all put up with the tf2 particle editor

terse lintel
#

ctrl v crashing when m2 menu doesn't

#

pppppppfffffftttttttttttttttttttttttt

rare creek
#

I've never had problems with the particle editor

terse lintel
#

im especially good at making everything a pain

terse lintel
#

either something is broken or I am overlooking something because this is not how it acts in the particle editor

image.png
stone linden
# left sand whats w strafing?

when you hold w (or other combinations of keys, like aw or wd) to apply acceleration somewhat towards your crosshair and air strafe while looking inside your turn instead of straight forward. trimping uses w strafing because a charge basically holds w but really fast

s strafing is the same backwards but has no real use

heavy solarBOT
#

@stone linden has leveled up! (2 ➜ 3)

levelup.png
eternal haven
#

It seems like you'd have to be turning in a pretty tight inward curve for w to give you more speed instead of less

#

I guess the ideal air strafe angle would have to be closer to the diagonal movement vector than the straight sideways one or something

#

idk how all that works

stone linden
#

i believe the ideal one for maximum airspeed is directly perpendicular to the direction of movement, so a/d if you’re looking forward, w if you’re looking fully into your turn, and aw/wd if you look 45 degrees off center

#

i think there’s data here on the maximum turn rate angles as well which is slightly over 90 degrees most of the time

#

i guess this is pretty obscure lol but useful for surfing, scout double jumping, and adding some variation to flight patterns for bombing

#

it’s nice to air strafe fully around a target at maximum speed while still aiming toward the target

#

so this guy probably just saw me air strafing but looking at him and thought i was cheating but no, this is just how w strafing works

kind falcon
#

add me 🔥 u play like pro

limpid panther
# eternal haven idk how all that works

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3zT3Z5apaM

YouTube
Matt's Ramblings
The code behind Quake's movement tricks explained (bunny-hopping, w...

Explanation of how the player movement code in Quake gives rise to these three different player movement "bugs", with a quick look at TAS movement mechanics at the end.

Big thanks to the Quake Speedrunning Discord for helping me out with getting TASQuake running on my machine, and for clarifying terminology.

Here are the original C versions of...

▶ Play video
uncut spear
#

I love quake :3

high current
#

Are power bunnies a thing in TF2? It wouldn’t be super useful since all you would do is hit speed cap quicker, but im just curious.
Also is wall running a thing in tf2? Apparently it kind of is if you’re in the air but I’ve never seen it referenced when just running on the ground.

uncut spear
#

swear wall running when on the ground is just not a thing really for source games esp TF2 but that's from very little knowledge so

terse lintel
kind falcon
#

wall running should be a thing in tf tuah

#

or its capped by something. it present in goldsrc tho steamhapp

#

swear mr shoe did a vid on it

#

must be goldsrc brainrot

#

when did they update mountain lab.

rare creek
kind falcon
#

oh. this is cool i think.

eternal haven
kind falcon
#

fire image

terse lintel
spring kestrel
eternal haven
broken haven
#

do you think they should change the causal queues?

#

like instead of picking maps you can pick gamemode instead

tacit flare
broken haven
#

yea

rare creek
#

fuck no

left sand
#

i think they should allow map bans

#

but a limited number

#

and remove forced map votes

#

instead go on the map cycle by default but players can nominate a map vote towards the end of the round

next nymph
#

i liked jane's old suggestion of a ranked choice map voting system

glass musk
rare creek
#

I think what we need to do is lock people from requeueing at the end of a match

#

I played with this guy who would requeue at the end of each match and it's like bro are you really so fucking brainrot you can't wait another 2 minutes

high current
#

Tbh I think current system is fine. Maybe half the post-game map vote time and half the maximum waiting for player time.
Then maybe add a bit of weight to prioritize filling less queue maps that are in the player’s selection so lesser maps happen more often, and that’d probably decrease the rate at which you only play upward.

#

But the current system is more good than it is bad. And anyone who says otherwise huffs gold sharpies.

drowsy marlin
#

If it ain't broke don't fix it

terse lintel
#

maybe re-enable teamscramble

tacit flare
# broken haven yea

A lot of people would hate it, because a lot of people only want to play the maps they like. Being forced onto a map you don't like will just force people to find a place where they do have the options, such as community servers. An example with Uncletopia, where they were forced to add map cooldowns because everyone always voted payload.

#

Why is this Uncletopia server dead? Oh, all the payload maps are on cooldown.

rare creek
#

I DISAGREE

eternal haven
#

Map cooldown is dumb

#

Why prevent people from playing maps they want to play

#

If they dont want to play the map they wont vote it again

tacit flare
#

I don't understand the idea that forcing a map to be played will make people actually play it, rather than either leaving or throwing.

eternal haven
#

If there's people who stay in the server for like 10 games in a row and they dont want to play the same map twice ever they can just go to another server or deal with it

tacit flare
#

To mention Uncletopia again, It's a well known thing that people vote for a "meme map" then it instantly kills the server then leave.

rare creek
#

what valve should do is remove dogshit maps so I dont have to disable them in my queue

tacit flare
#

!nominate Hydro

#

Literally a couple of days ago the map voted to change to Hyro and everyone proceeded to scramble teams every time a single point was capped.

tacit flare
wild grove
#

tbh all I want is a map thumbnail preview so I know what the map looks like, and tick it off if its one I recognize as subjectively bad.

eternal haven
#

I wonder if you could add that

#

like with hud editing

high current
# eternal haven like with hud editing

I don’t think so. The map categories are populated by hardcode. I think even the quantity of categories is hardcoded, so you couldn’t even manually insert the images.

eternal haven
#

Yeah probably not

#

If there is any way to do it it's definitely hacky

high current
#

My only guess would be if you could somehow edit where the names are stored and could somehow add the image directly to that. But I’m pretty sure the first isn’t possible and I’m damn near certain the last is not possible.

eternal haven
#

I think it might actually be possible

#

If you add an imagepanel to MatchmakingCategoryMapPanel and set its image based on %title_token%

#

unless hud images can't have spaces in them maybe that would mess it up, or maybe you can't use 'variables' as image names

#

Idk anything about hud editing

#

I guess if there's any known way to set an image based on a dialogvariable it may be possible, otherwise if not then probably not

barren gulch
#

Figured to ask here: is there a way to prevent the automatic team switch (red -> blu and blu -> red) after the end of a round on Attack/Defense maps?

summer willow
#

trolldier uses bhop to make the game think they still on the air to get the crits right?

#

im on walkway trying to do this but cant

#

probably im bad but idk

broken haven
wintry marlin
broken haven
#

i forgot how the explanation works

eternal haven
#

You have to jump on like the same tick you hit the ground

#

If your jump comes a tick later it's too late

broken haven
#

i think scrollwheel jump would help you?

eternal haven
#

And you're not allowed to jump before hitting the ground

wintry marlin
#

And it won't work on lan unless you add fake lag.

eternal haven
#

bhop in general or the market gardener bhop?

wintry marlin
#

The crit stays for as long as you hear the blast jump sound.

#

Bhop will work regardless but the blast jump is what you are concerned with

#

You can bhop on lan but the blast jump will cancel, so you need lag yo prevent that from happening.

summer willow
summer willow
#

in game im bad but lets try

wintry marlin
#

Though bhops will be harder to hit if your lag is 100+.

eternal haven
#

I mean you can definitely bhop on a listen server

wintry marlin
#

Due to rubberbanding, backtracking and other inconsistencies.

eternal haven
#

but idk about the market gardener continue

wintry marlin
#

The blast jump extension won't continue on listen servers, or it will but it is super difficult to hit that it feels random.

summer willow
#

yeah i think on servers it should work

#

inject badwater in my veins

#

btw

#

the insta respawn in a respawn room is using the command to change loadouts right?

eternal haven
#

honestly the bhop timing feels looser than 1 tick

#

load_itempreset 0/1/2/3 is the b4nny bind

summer willow
#

wha

eternal haven
#

load_itempreset 0 will switch you to your loadout 0 and insta respawn you if you're in a spawn room

#

1,2,3 for the other loadout presets

mystic anchor
summer willow
#

if im on loadout 0 and run load_itempreset 0 im gonna respawn?

eternal haven
#

if you're in a spawn region yes

summer willow
#

hmmm ok

eternal haven
#

maybe tf_respawn_on_loadoutchanges has to be enabled

#

it's enabled by default I think

rare creek
#

disabled by defaulf

summer willow
#

i have enabled

eternal haven
#

mine says def 1

#

Does anyone know what the actual time window for hitting a bhop is

#

like the bhops in jump maps

next nymph
eternal haven
#

I'm able to hit it almost every time I actually try, even using a shitty keyboard with 125hz polling rate and even slower scan rate

#

and like 10+ ms debounce delay I think

#

like there's no way I'm able to press keys with 15ms accuracy on this keyboard and yet I can still hit jump map bhops like 8/10 times

next nymph
#

i fiddled around with heavily underclocking a mouse so the scrollwheel would be consistent, and it would carry over market gardener crits with less than tick perfect

#

even in the ideal case, alternating +jump and -jump every frame with a scrollwheel (which pretty much requires an underclocked mouse to do perfectly consistently) you're still only tick perfect 50% of the time

eternal haven
#

Tbh it's kinda weird that you can even 'overclock' mice

#

Like I understand you can get your host controller to poll them at shorter intervals but it's surprising to me that it's so common for devices to actually send back data faster than they were designed to

#

It definitely doesn't work on all devices, I've found some that still only send new data at their default rate even if you poll them faster

left sand
eternal haven
#

Idk if it feels that long

#

maybe

#

I suppose I could test it

next nymph
#

might be placebo but something i remember was observing that multiple bhops in a row would still be able to market garden but less reliably each time you did them, even when a single bhop (with an underclocked scrollwheel) was extremely reliable

uncut spear
eternal haven
#

In a super unscientific test I found the window for pressing jump for hitting the bhop on jump academy bounce jump 2 to be just shy of 20 ms

#

Just by simulating keypresses with a microcontroller and increasing and decreasing the delay until pressing jump

#

on a listen server

#

it might be different on a networked server or with different game fps or something idk

void slate
#

Do .lmp files for maps work for TF2?

left sand
#

who else got baited the worst steamdb ping of all time...

potent wolf
#

me :(

summer willow
#

what is these changes?

left sand
#

its accessibility i think

#

labels

eternal haven
#

What is so bad about it

#

Just that 99% of people don't care about it?

#

Or like I don't see what makes it the worst

left sand
#

just a joke i got excited and then i saw store asset timestamp modification

rare creek
#

fucking accessability

#

always ruins everything for everyone else

potent wolf
eternal haven
#

🙀

high current
rare creek
mental scaffold
#

don't worry guys the next leak will contain lore information about the multi billion dollar company finally giving us the pootis update

#

just believe it when the commentary youtubers will say it

high current
# rare creek what?

The part of the curb that ramps down to be level with the road for accessibility but everyone universally flocks to them be cause calf muscles are hard

summer willow
#

aliases is kept saved?

summer willow
#

im understading demoknight....

eternal haven
#

I dont like demo knight

potent wolf
#

you don't like benchmarking software made by kenajcrap?

eternal haven
#

Thats probably fine but I dont like the tf2 demoknight class

summer willow
#

why

#

its fun

eternal haven
#

Just play regular demo

#

I dont like any gimmick classes Id rather just fight a scout or a soldier or regular demo

summer willow
#

why?

eternal haven
#

When there's all these gimmick classes headshotting you from a corner in the back of the map or charging at you or waiting around to try to backstab you it takes away from the fights that are actually enjoyable

summer willow
#

rgl player above

eternal haven
#

I guess it's just because it's not rewarding to kill a spy or a demoknight or a sniper or something

#

But it's really stupid to die to them

#

For other classes it's more rewarding to kill them than it is annoying to die to them

summer willow
#

idk

#

this seem more of the way you play and expect the game to be

#

demoknight could be better, theres lot of things that are broken but the game doesnt update so

radiant merlin
#

using steam link makes these windows bigger

imagen.png
#

didn't know that

eternal haven
#

U sure it's not just a resolution thing

#

by default vgui_ui_scale_height or whatever is 1080

#

it tries to make all the ui look as if it was the size it should be at 1080p, by default

#

so the actual sizes of things (in pixels) change based on your resolution

#

(on resolutions higher than 1080p)

#

tbh it's kind of annoying

#

changing your resolution clears console now since changing vgui ui scale clears console

#

even changing vgui_ui_scale_height in autoexec at game start clears your console

#

I wonder what vgui_ui_scale_factor_deck_additional is

#

presumably it just gets used on the steam deck? idk

radiant merlin
#

oh it's using deck

fathom eagle
#

Should I use the dev build to make my new config?

#

It's supposed to be up to 9.12.0 right? per #announcements📰

left sand
#

yes

broken haven
#

anyone know how much this is worth?

image.png
#

in like usd

left sand
#

best to ask on the knockout discord server

orchid sorrel
#

probably like 80 usd, but might be a slow sell

#

iirc the last min wear freedom wrapped rl sold for $90

#

selling already applied war paints is a huge pain, I wish valve would offer some solution for it

wild grove
#

the solution is not to think of skins as profitable in applied form, once you do that, you'd might as well give it away.

#

and VALVe isn't gonna come up with a solution for it if they can barely implement skins properly.

wintry marlin
#

As long as it is thematically appropriate you'll find people willing to buy

#

God forbid if you put this on a wrench

#

Or a knife

tacit flare
#

Is this a car salesman "Once you take it off the forcourt it loses 40% value." Kind of deal?

wintry marlin
#

Yes.

mystic anchor
summer willow
#

https://steamcommunity.com/app/440/discussions/0/5560306947036600131/ thinking about this

A way to "save" Team Fortress 2 :: Team Fortress 2 General Discussions

Just make Team Fortress 2 open source (and some other things) . This has already been discussed a few times and this time I want to bring up the discuss again and hope to add more to this topic. I mean "save" because there's is no way to know what would happen and doesn't means that the game is gonna return to the (g)old days, but means that the...

high current
#

I feel like that post aged like milk.

  • Source 2 - if I had a nickel for everytime I saw someone say this.
  • “The game is terrible for new and casual players alike.” - How? Elaborate. There’s no tutorial and I’ll agree it’s definitely not good for new players but the author didn’t elaborate at all. For casual players I just disagree, they didn’t elaborate at all on that either.
  • “A lot of problems with optimization, hardware support, insecurity, etc.” - Optimization: an engine port wouldn’t make the game get better fps, most likely it would be like CS2 where they aim for equivalent performance to what the original game released with on contemporary hardware, IE performance would be worse but hardware would be better utilized and graphics would be better in ways that people probably won’t be satisfied with. Insecurity: they don’t elaborate on this at all but I think they just pulled this out of the air.
  • “[recent update] revealed lots of broken things because of Valve’s lack of play testing.” - I’m a certified Valve hater, but no amount of play testing is going to compare to tens of thousands of users playing the game, they don’t elaborate on specifics so again I just wish they would elaborate
#

TBH I think saying TF2 needs “saving” is a bit extreme. It could use some more TLC, but the problems it has aren’t particularly unique to TF2, maybe the new player experience is. But frankly I think TF2’s casual experience is a strong contender even in the modern market.

#

I’d argue most other games don’t have a casual experience, they just have a competitive experience without the risk/reward. Which isn’t the same as casual IMO, and most people’s opinions.

summer willow
#

so answering

#

the citation of source 2 was only saying that valve wouldn't care much because there's this new thing they've been developing, the "open sourcing" of the game is for the community maintain and preserve the game within source 1

#

save is in quotation for a reson

#

the second thing is how there's kinda a lot to get into tf2

#

about not being able to communicate, the usage of configs (not necessary but its basically superior), bad defaults

#

third point, again, i didnt suggest to port to another engine, i think the game clearly has more that it can optimize as shown by tc2
the insecurity thing is vague because idk much tbh but i say this because of hearing about getting doxxed when using streamer mode and others stuff like that

#

forth, i don't quite remember what update was exactly, the post is from 2023, but it did have some update that broke things

#

the motive to me send again is more the part of "open sourcing", when i talked with other people and when mentioned was basically something that wouldnt really happen, or atleast in a way that valve would directly accept pull requests, but now we have it

#

its not really open source but even back then i knew it wouldnt be but good enough

summer steeple
#

honestly the thing about playtesting for me is mostly that with like every update valve pushes things like maps that are broken (visually or functionally due to issues on their end, not the mapper's) in ways that are immediately noticeable when you run the map, cosmetics that are just errors, etc.

summer willow
#

yeah yeah, i think it was something like that

#

it also had vscript maps broken

summer steeple
#

I don't doubt valve tests things, but it doesn't seem like after they finalize an update they test the update on like a "retail" version of the game

#

without a dev environment

#

quite a few issues have arisen in recent years due to the fact that valve requires that they compile the map

summer willow
#

i would really like if maps was able to decompile completely lossless

summer steeple
#

thats not really possible unfortunately

#

BSP is kind of made to throw away as much data that isn't needed as possible

summer willow
#

sad

wintry marlin
#

On the topic of tf2 s2, I have an idea of what it would entail as a user experience for the game and it's kinda sad nobody is doing a proof of concept in figma or something, just slap some video and ui elements together

#

Just imagine if main menu was animated like cs2 but less sterile

#

Half life 2 has menu backgrounds made of maps, one for every chapter

#

It feels like valve went back to that with cs2

#

But Valve are also lazy and like I said earlier, the way cs2 dudes just stand there posing with their guns is sterile.

#

I think the most favorable argument for s2 is that all of the map bloat will be gone.

#

A clean slate.

wild grove
#

No other community than the tf2 community to treat their own content creators like trash. No other community would call their own content ""bloat""

wintry marlin
#

Ask me how I feel about csgo map pool

wild grove
#

no.

wintry marlin
#

I will tell you, completely fine.
They removed most maps after the end of operations.

wild grove
#

Sounds bad, imagine all that work. Your map gets added, then boom, gone, cant even queue for it.

wintry marlin
#

Yet people still made maps with that in mind, usually without hope of ever being added

#

I'm not playing 80 halloween maps each year.

wild grove
#

Uh, I am?

#

Its pretty fun tbh.

wintry marlin
#

I'll do the new ones and ignore the old ones or vice versa.

#

The event lasts for about 2 weeks.
If you work full time completing all of them is just not feasible anymore.

#

Completing the contracts that is

wild grove
#

It lasts a month?

wintry marlin
#

Huh, feels like half

#

In all fairness the maps are fine.
There's nothing wrong with them.

#

Even vs hale ones

wild grove
#

I just dont want map cuts, nothing will change my mind at all.

wintry marlin
#

Understandable

#

It feels cluttered to me.

uncut spear
#

just get rid of turbine and I'll be happy

uncut spear
#

there's def maps I'm not in favor of, if not dislike

#

but like

#

I can just not queue for those

#

and others will

#

map making ik is not an easy feat

#

esp working with valve's dog water software from what I've heard

wintry marlin
#

If maps get removed it doesn't mean they're bad, valve established that with operations

#

It's odd that they gave tf2 ones permanent stay

#

Although valve also removed aztec.

#

And cobblestone.

#

And a dozen other classics.

#

Simply because they were not up to standard.

uncut spear
#

like competitive standard?

#

cause that's the reason why TF2 maps would stay

wintry marlin
#

In general, from the game

#

They have casual map groups

#

Where everything that isn't played on pro matches goes

#

Like office.

uncut spear
#

office is goated

#

love that map

wintry marlin
#

They got rid of militia, assault and italy iirc.

#

They hate hostage maps it seems

#

But then they added agency.

#

Doesn't matter now though, cs2 got rid of everything.

summer willow
#

ok... demoknight can get a little silly sometimes, maybe more than that

wintry marlin
#

Actually, I think here's the reason why csgo maps were temporary and tf2 maps are there to stay.
Mappers made their money with operation ticket sales in csgo.
In tf2 there are map stamps. They are a donation. No incentive to get them.

#

Valve don't touch people's source of income.

high current
# wintry marlin On the topic of tf2 s2, I have an idea of what it would entail as a user experie...

It’d be interesting to see takes on a tf2s2 style hud.
I will say CS2’s hud having those playing cards for kills was not on my bingo card for when it dropped.

I’ve always thought darhud was a pretty good “modern” tf2 hud, basically stock hud but angular. At least from what I’ve seen of the in game hud in YouTube videos and screenshots.

I also think a 70s/80s aesthetic could be kind of cool. I think TF2 is supposed to take place in the 60s/70s with material goods from the 40s/50s and some old forgotten badlands elements from even before that, though my lore knowledge could be wrong.
But something more 70s themed kinda like the overall aesthetic of Deceive inc would be really cool, and would keep with the theme of time progressing but the mercs being 2ish decades behind.

wintry marlin
#

Yea exactly right

#

Perhaps they could take a lesson from deadlock

limpid panther
#

TF2 @crisp cedar Open Hole

left sand
#

done by CriticalFlaw

uncut spear
#

🥹

#

this is such an amazing idea

kind falcon
#

theres still redundant trash in the models

#

removing a workshop map is easy,

wild grove
#

There's also unused textures too. They could also finish the compression of the maps that came out before map compression became a thing.

#

Remove coaching too since adhoc no longer exists for valve servers.

wintry marlin
summer willow
#

why can i walk here

image.png
left sand
#

open strats

high current
#

Why not?

orchid sorrel
paper sluice
mystic anchor
uncut spear
#

i love unnecessary flicks like that 😭

crisp cedar
summer steeple
#

oh thats cool

#

i guess it would've probably been like a beam sentry?

eternal haven
#

Glad that ugly ass bullshit aint make it in to the game trollfigtrollfigtrollfigtrollfig

wild grove
#

I fw the oogis borgus sentry gun

mystic anchor
summer willow
#

solarlight makes such bangers videos damn

summer willow
#

aaaaaa

#

the charge turning inconsistency really sucks

#

im kinda afraid that fixing will limit how much you can turn

#

im playing at 60 fps because its weird to use turn binds

#

i can't even play at 75 (which is my monitor refresh rate) because its jittery

#

this is possible to fix on the sdk?

eternal haven
#

stickybomb launcher doesnt have this problem

summer willow
#

skill issue

potent wolf
#

correct, it is a skill issue that can be solved by switching to the stickybomb launcher

#

why is the max turn rate fps dependent anyways

summer willow
#

valve broke on a update trying to fix

#

but idk

#

honestly, independent on how its fixed it probably never gonna be accepted

#

but i would like to see how it is on tc2

elfin isle
eternal haven
#

No

kind falcon
#

computer

main plinth
#

for example my engineer.cfgis like this:

bind "mouse3" "destroy 2 0; build 2 0"
bind "4" "destroy 0 0; build 0 0"
bind "5" "destroy 1 0; build 1 0"
bind "6" "destroy 1 1; build 1 1"

do i need to add these to game_overrides.cfg if I want my other classes "untouched"

bind "mouse3" "+attack3"
bind "4" "slot4"
bind "5" "slot5"
bind "6" "slot6"

or is there a better method?

main plinth
#

thanks

radiant merlin
#

28 days since last merged pr, sdk is a failure just like the community fix workshop tab DDDDDD:

left sand
#

they may be focusing on releasing the branch to live

oblique tangle
#

that might be cope

radiant merlin
#

also aboot the passtime mod, is it really necessary

#

imo it feels like making a mod just for the sake of it, no hate btw

#

it's not like they get money so they could instead just making tons of prs to fix passtime bugs

left sand
#

So I actually discussed this

#

the reason they are making an independent passtime mod is that they want to make changes/additions to the game's mechanics/balance that involve vanilla weapons, mechanics, etc which wouldn't fit into any base game/vanilla-like mod

#

personally, I still disagree, though within the current landscape the mod is what makes the most sense, I think overall the community should be focusing on enriching the modding scene with a platform to do things like that

drowsy marlin
#

no way

#

I can pub stomp in 5 ping now!

eternal haven
#

Wtf

#

Who would have ever thought

#

Chicago valve servers

#

Wonder why they chose to run tf2 servers there now

#

After all these years of not

hoary geyser
#

Oh nice

hoary geyser
eternal haven
#

No there were csgo servers in chicago

#

Weren't there

#

for like years

#

unless Im tripping

#

There's also been an SDR cluster there

#

before now

#

just no tf2 servers

hoary geyser
#

Maybe in the past, but I believe the servers were hosted in Virginia

#

Although they were routed through Chicago, but idk exactly what that means

left sand
#

its really all about if they have the available spare hardware

eternal haven
#

I guess

#

A lot of the valve tf2 servers just sit empty

#

Last time I checked there were more than 10,000 valve matchmaking servers and over half were empty

#

But I guess the peak usage for different regions is at different times of day so maybe most of the capacity is actually used idk

#

I think chicago is just about the best place for a game server in the USA

#

As in lowest ping to the largest population of players