Team Fortress 2 Megathread - winter is the most chill time of year

[burnt dragon]

compared to a 11800h and r7 7800

[kind falcon]

i think your info source is wrong

https://tenor.com/view/dancing-cat-squidgame-gif-25240006

[burnt dragon]

I just see no reason to upgrade gpu since their price hike is SO MUCH more compared to a cpu

with every gen the improvements over gpu gets less with ai "upgrades" and cpus are improving really fast overall

[eternal haven]

Idk bro

The 4090 shits all over the 3090 does it not?

2080 ti to 3090, 3090 to 4090, 4090 to 5090 have all been a bigger improvement than 2080ti over 1080ti

[kind falcon]

4090 to 5090 is a joke

https://tenor.com/view/officialyongbok-cat-grumpy-gif-6970677865555291125

[radiant merlin]

bad moment for nvidia to produce a gpu with little improvements

[eternal haven]

If you only care about power efficiency it is

But it's got more cores more performance and more features

And they actually went 32 gb memory, all the leaks were saying 28

[burnt dragon]

4090 price shits itself tho.

price performance is awful with nvidia since 4000 series

[small siren]

*price performance is

awful with nvidia since

4000 series*

- polarite

[burnt dragon]

and they are just marketing fake frames as real frames which is extremely scummy as is

[eternal haven]

Maybe AMD should compete with them

[burnt dragon]

sigh hopefully at some point

intel is catching up nicely tho

they got some fairly good mid tier gpus :^3

[kind falcon]

its as if amd 7000 series dont actually exist

i love my gpu discussion in a cpu bound videogame

[high current]

Just buy a last gen gpu like a 40 series now that 50 series has dropped. The price is probably still outrageous for a last gen product, but usually they drop to a reasonable price for what would have been a new product.

Or just be happy with a 30 series card. It’ll probably be able to drive a 144hz-240hz monitor in modern games with the right settings for at least the next 5 years.

[left pivot]

brain farting what are the commands alongside mat_phong that fuck with how aussies look

specifically the one that makes the whole weapon look gold instead of just the gold parts

[eternal haven]

I think that's dxlevel 8 with specular enabled

Not aware of anything on dxlevel 9 that makes the entire weapon gold

These are basically the options on dxlevel 9 I think https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=287071615

[wild grove]

They should show how it looks with just r_rimlight 0

Basically mat_phong 0 minus visual bugs and extremely dark lighting.

[left pivot]

something is very fucked with my game then lol

[velvet raft]

this is me

in college

https://tenor.com/view/glorparrive-glorp-arrive-cat-ufo-gif-14440606817430553724

[eternal haven]

https://tenor.com/view/true-successfully-deployed-get-this-man-a-true-true-morgan-freeman-true-morgan-freeman-gif-17551062976351461149

[eternal haven]

Idk what's up with that 'fiery' look

But just so you know changing dxlevel with mat_dxlevel or with the -dxlevel launch option messes a ton of things up

The proper way to set dxlevel is to have the game read your intended setting from the registry while it's loading, and not change it after that

Launching with -dxlevel can be used to update the registry value if you want, but you should then relaunch the game without it, not use the session launched with -dxlevel

[left pivot]

the thing is its still cooked with all the settings set (i think) properly

[small siren]

*the thing is its still

cooked with all the settings set

(i think) properly*

- tetisu

[left pivot]

dxlevel was set & client restarted

[eternal haven]

For the other settings you might not see correct results if you change them mid game

[left pivot]

all of these are immediately after starting the game

nothing was changed

[eternal haven]

Maybe r_worldlights?

For me the base is shiny like that when I turn mat_phong off

but with phong, specular, and bumpmap enabled, on dxlevel 95, the base is solid gray, not shiny like yours

[left pivot]

thats why i'm so confused

[eternal haven]

Do you have phong enabled while you're loading the game?

Or do you disable it while loading and then manually enabled it after the game loads?

[left pivot]

it should just be enabled when i'm loading in

[eternal haven]

And no -dxlevel in launch options?

[left pivot]

nope

it was something in my launch options

[eternal haven]

What were they?

[left pivot]

-novid -nojoy -nosteamcontroller -nohltv -particles 1 -precachefontchars -nostartupsound -no_texture_stream -nouserclip -nops2b -softparticlesdefaultoff -noborder -windowed -w 1920 -h 1440

[eternal haven]

-nops2b probably

also get rid of -windowed -w -h, no reason to ever, ever use those

windowed mode and resolution are both saved to registry and loaded from there, overriding them can cause the game to do bad stuff similar to launching with -dxlevel

[left pivot]

it was -nops2b

[eternal haven]

Yep that's like the only one of them it could be lol

As a bonus you'll probably also have higher fps and less dense fog

due to removing that

[left pivot]

i do remember benchmarking all of those unusual settings and actually finding better performance on my hardware idk why

i also remember being quite befuddled at how abnormally foggy some maps were lol

regardless ty for the help, and apologes for my ignorance

[small siren]

*regardless ty

for the help, and apologes

for my ignorance*

- tetisu

[sterile ferry]

how to get the game to run in something like 1024x576 without it just defaulting the res to some 4:3 one

[wild grove]

set a custom resolution in nvidia, amd, intel display settings.

[sterile ferry]

tf2 just stays on a black screen like this

unless i did something the wrong way

[spring kestrel]

Use launch options

[sterile ferry]

it sets it to 4:3

[wild grove]

Bizarre, it should work, I have set custom resolutions in nvidia and it worked in the game before.

[sterile ferry]

i mean maybe i did it wrong

or is it meant to be like game specific

[sterile ferry]

(it showed up here before since i used that cru thing)

[wild grove]

You did it wrong, I don't see the resolution you want in the tab

[small siren]

*You did it wrong, I

don't see the resolution

you want in the tab*

- woshee

[eternal haven]

This is probably the problem

CRU makes a fake edid for your monitor

So your graphics driver is told that the actual resolution of your monitor is the custom one you set in cru (it isn't)

It's usually fine for normal monitors which have a scaler, but laptop screens have no scaler, so they can only accept their native res, nothing else

So if you want to use a custom resolution on a laptop screen, you have to first scale on your gpu to the native res before output

[sterile ferry]

how would i do that

[eternal haven]

Get rid of anything CRU added so that the normal EDID that's read from your screen is used

then just set a custom res in the intel control panel

[sterile ferry]

alr ill try if i remember tomorrow

would there be any way to be able to use the rest of my computer at a normal res tho while still having tf2 properly use the lowered one

[eternal haven]

Yeah as long as you play tf2 in fullscreen you can definitely do that

you might not like it though, it'll switch back and forth between the resolutions every time you alt tab, which kind of sucks

screen will flash, makes alt tabs take like 1 second, and resizes your windows and stuff, etc

[sterile ferry]

i mean only time i alt tab is to set the priority of tf2 to above normal sometimes (if that even has much of an effect)

[mystic anchor]

small flick :)

[uncut spear]

https://gamebanana.com/mods/572271

new higher fps mod just dropped I promise

[kind falcon]

pointless 💔

[high current]

Spy looks so cursed

[slender nexus]

this is from the magfest discord

sniper and spy spotted,,,,

here's TF2 cosplayers I found at MAGFest

[sterile ferry]

worked, thanks

[burnt dragon]

crazy how people still roleplay as tf2 characters

crazy game

[slender nexus]

Oh fuck I forgot one

[burnt dragon]

LMAOOO best one

thank god its not porn

[oblique tangle]

guy kinda looks like ethan klein

eh nvm

[radiant merlin]

Would you mind if valve added new voicelines for the engineer but not from grant goodeve?

[mystic turtle]

didn't that happen already, when the Saxton Hale gamemode was added

[wild grove]

depends on if the new lines are from a voice actor who can voice super similarly to engie.

[mystic turtle]

but me personally, I'd be fine without any new voicelines; not to be some rose-tinted-glasses bastard but new voice acting generally does sound a little wack (given the standard of the VSH voicelines as a basis)

[wild grove]

mhm, and they could've found more than one VA to do the mercs rather than just one person do all 9.

[mystic turtle]

yea, true enough
and I know there are a handful of very impressive impersonators, I still remember that video of that one dude who literally sounded like Soldier on mic

[uncut spear]

probs a rare opinion but engineer as a general character hasn't hit nor stuck with me tbh

so I wouldn't mind new voice lines from someone else

but I would still want them to sound as similar as grant

for the sake of literally anyone else lol

[radiant merlin]

valve didn't do it

[high current]

Tbh there are probably already lines in game that aren’t voiced by the voice actor.
Not sure if video games are like this, but at least with cartoon shows, when you have recording time you record, if the voice actor is sick there’s usually someone around who does a good enough impression to nail it with some post processing. On a lot of shows writers will have pretty good impersonations from script reads or just general work culture.

[left sand]

https://youtu.be/4wWtzqxtc_c

[oblique tangle]

holy TSR fizzle

[high current]

Why does upward with 3d planks make me so uncomfortable? It's like when a movie has an uber close up and you see people's pores

[oblique tangle]

that one frame in a spongebob episode:

[drowsy marlin]

TF2 needs TAA and real time global illumination to adjust it to modern standards

Nantie will also help eliminate the need for model LODs

[paper sluice]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/emojis/1048062328526098522.gif?size=48&animated=true&name=aware

[paper sluice]

i prefer impression of detail over actual detail tbh

the 3d is like wrong,,., on so many levels,,.,

[eternal haven]

Why in the world did discord think this was a good idea

It used to be clear

[summer willow]

because a lot of gifs have white background which you could not see to star

[small siren]

*because a lot of

gifs have white background which you

could not see to star*

- _jakez

[summer willow]

i love how the video says that with nanite you can have millions vertices with little performance loss

[summer steeple]

i mean... true?

but also like thats a gross oversimplification

[drowsy marlin]

Real life uses nanite

[summer steeple]

I wouldn't really be that surprised if your average tf2 scene already has that many

it depends on the context of that quote but as far as i know the whole thing about nanite is that there's not a ton of polygons being rendered at once

because its dynamic based on how much space it would take up on the screen

ALSO

i'm about 95% sure that poly count isn't usually a massive bottleneck for performance anymore

since as it turns out, gpus are pretty good at crunching through a lot of numbers

[drowsy marlin]

What's a big bottleneck? Is it the fancy shaders?

Transparency? Global illumination?

[summer steeple]

iirc yeah, transparency can still be a big one and draw calls? I'm speaking from memory not experience here so don't full trust me

i guess there is also overdraw, which is directly related to polycount

i just actually watched the video instead of just commenting on what other people were saying

I think this sort of project would be better off if the person was more familiar with how source renders things

[eternal haven]

In tf2?

It's all the stuff it does on the cpu on like 2 threads

as long as you have a normal gpu

[summer steeple]

like the whole thing of upscaling and then tossing the textures into substance is kind of weird to me because it implies that tf2 has only low res diffuse textures

and i mean its by no means high res

[left sand]

anyone interested in working on a 6s standalone game?

[summer steeple]

but they also have normal maps and other data already

i guess PBR does have a lot more data but still

but their corrugated metal is so 3d that it looks really off to me

the wood looks nice, I wish they'd have mentioned taht the 3d planks were also trying to emulate the holes that are in the texture too, I think them being actual geometry is neat!

[left sand]

i need:

• programming
• weapon modeling/rigging/animation
• character modeling/rigging/animation
• prop modeling
• environment art
• level design
• concept art
• voice acting
• writing
• ui design
• music composition
• sound effect creation
• particle effect authoring

[summer steeple]

i wish i were more skilled and less busy, I could probably try a few of those roles...

[left sand]

differences from tf2:

• unique world/setting
• new characters fitting the four 6s roles with no subclasses
• streamlined game mechanics

[drowsy marlin]

I can playtest and if you need a prop modeled I can fire up blender and do stuff

[eternal haven]

Are you gonna use unreal engine

[drowsy marlin]

And I know rigging well enough, but animation will take an eternity

[left sand]

it's set in the far future, with space pirates for hire joining the battle between a space colonizing gigacorp and a galactic alien empire

[left sand]

yes

im getting 400FPS

its going to be fully scaled down unreal engine

[left sand]

the crew of playable characters all need the money from space pirating to pay off their absurd debts, which range from owing money to the japanese mafia, to gambling debts

they fight for control of mines and other resource nodes on a variety of alien planets, asteroids, moons, in a practically unlimited amount of biomes and environments

each battle the two sides seek to control a total of 5 nodes, starting from their deployment base, to a midpoint, to the enemy's base

work in progress synopsis draft:

In the year 23xx, there is a war brewing between the mighty Amber One Holdings Corp., which have conquered Earth and have set their sights on the cosmos, colonizing planets and asteroid belts to gather resources to fuel their industrial machine, and the Blumoth, an intergalactic alien civilization protecting their territory and resources. Both sides seek assistance from for-hire space pirates to gain an edge in their never-ending stalemate for control of the galaxies.

A few brave souls (and one robot) answer the call for bounty... all deeply in debt:

• Tomoe, the Runner She hails from the unknown remote island of Japan, an Earth nation which, by sheer lack of geographic knowledge on the part of Amber One management, was not conquered like the rest of Earth. Japan, now isolated for centuries, has seen its male population go extinct. Luckily, Japanese women, in desperation, had began working on same-sex reproduction centuries ago, and have been sustaining the Yakuza, a now all-female organization, with their breakthrough ever since. Tomoe, like most drug runners of her generation, has received high tech leg implants which run off of a mixture of sugar and sugar-like substance to power her through her 16 day work week. Unfortunately for her, despite the Work Week Extension Act of 2293, there are still only 7 days in a week, so she's behind on her hours, and the Yakuza is not one you want to be indebted to. Especially now, since the Yakuza Anti-Debtors party is in control of the government. So she's fled, looking to make her money elsewhere. With her discipline to continue substance abuse at all costs to get a job done, she makes an excellent space pirate.

• Bruce, the Blast Miner As a hard-working true American asteroid miner, Bruce is in heavy debt. When he got the job at Amber Mining and Boring Exploitation Registry, he was handed a valuable Amber Rocket-Using Material Acquisition Device. Its purpose was to blast through rock in search for valuable metals on asteroids and remote planets, and allow a miner to ride blasts up and out of the mine, back to the surface in one piece. Well, the device usually did. The humans on the other hand, usually came up with their legs missing. Lucky for him, blood stains on the ores were interfering with the material refinement process, so he was also given the recently invented Amber Human Assisted Equipment Protection Device to protect his legs from ever being a bloody problem. Unfortunately for him, Amber takes it out of his paycheck, now at -$999999999/week. The accounting software doesn't go any lower. So he's got a new job with the space pirates, which will hopefully pay off his life's worth of debt from a few days of working at the mine.

• Scruff, the Wrecker Scruff hates robots. As a recluse hiding away from society, he spent his ample free time making explosives and EMPs to prepare for what he prophesizes to be a great upcoming war between humans and robots. A true genius, Scruff sees his bomb tinkering as a mere distraction to his real passion: gambling addiction. Despite being a master mathematician, his hallucinations prevent him from counting cards for anything even resembling reality. With a need to pay off his gambling debts, he resorted to becoming a space pirate, reluctantly working alongside robots and humans.

• Remi, the Docbot As the latest in a line of robots for civilian use, Remi the Docbot is a dual-purpose android with both medical-grade and military-grade weapons. They are issued to every citizen under Amber's gracious healthcare initiative, for a low mandatory rate of $1000000/day. Unfortunately for Remi, due to an accounting error, they inherited the debt of all the late nursing home patients under their care, and must join the space pirates to scrap up any cash they can in order to pay their maker.

please give feedback and criticism :)

[high current]

I’d be down to help in anyway I can. Can’t promise I’ll be of any use though.
UI design would probably be my main resume point.

[next nymph]

i could program but id wager that part is probably the highest supply

ui design too i guess but my background is mostly tf2 modding

[high current]

Yeh that’s pretty much my only experience in UI design as well. I started a UX certification at one point but had ✨life✨ come up.

[next nymph]

closest serious (non-hobby) ui work ive done was code support for ui artists, but they're the ones doing the design then

[high current]

Yeh I think I’d more aptly be described as a UX/UI engineer.

[small siren]

*Yeh I think I’d more

aptly be described as a

UX/UI engineer.*

- peachestv

[glass musk]

is mastercomfig 10 still releasing anytime soon?

[left sand]

no

heres the logo btw

[left sand]

PNG is a terrible format, the white acne doesn't appear in TIFF btw

[high current]

Now that I’m off work and can give it my thoughts:
I like the idea of it. It sounds great! A few questions though:

• when you say “no subclasses” I assume this means no Demoknight for sure, but does this also refer to no shotgun vs roamer soldiers? And does it mean no off classes?
• If it includes no off classes, do you have any initial hypothesis for how 5cp will play without off classes or what you might need to do to balance accordingly? For example: engi and heavy are common on last holds, sniper and spy are common on breaking last holds. Do you anticipate there being challenges around balancing last pushes / holds without off-classes (if applicable).
• Why Unreal engine? I’m not objecting, I’m just genuinely curious.

[eternal haven]

It's a discord skill issue

discord's thumbnails are webp also

but it has more to do with the thumbnail generation than the image format I think

[high current]

Regarding the lore: I like it! My only point of note from character descriptions in film school would be show-don’t-tell, whereever possible with characters.
It’s more nuanced with character descriptions, but for example with Tomoe: what does the male population in Japan contribute to her character?

I think for general character environment points it’s valid to say all that, and maybe it presents in her character as you flush her concept out. Or maybe Japan becomes a playable map and that tidbit becomes a map description or loading screen fact.
But if that’s like the character description when you inspect them in the menu, if it does show in her character somehow I might exclude it from that and put it elsewhere.

[left sand]

• shotgun on soldier is something im still thinking about. i think theres some room with some loadout choices, like kritz/uber, so i do think it works maybe. but i do think the meta has settled on gunboats only, and i do think thats a bit more interesting (much to the dismay of soldier mains). however, i DID like the role of pocket and his ability to pack a little more firepower.
• i think without longer last holds, 6s can shift to a fast round based gameplay, maybe even accelerating up to something like CS eventually. sniper really hurts the gameplay a lot IMO, in more ways than just directly, but it also prevents maps from becoming more open and more suited to the core 6s classes. spy is just a med pick class and i think its not very interesting and can be removed in the grand scheme of things.
• unreal engine is a c++, source available engine with FPS roots dating back from unreal tournament, and it is battle tested in the most played shooter in the world, fortnite. it has supremely efficient and accurate netcode, good community support, a huge amount of investment in its rendering and tech stack, and an absurb amount of iteration/gameplay helpers.

[eternal haven]

raw thumbnail image that discord served me

[left sand]

as far as i know, fully transparent pixels next to colored pixels are undefined in the format, so they can be white or transparent

[eternal haven]

Hmm I have never heard of that

in png or webp?

[left sand]

in png

[left sand]

these are just lore writeups basically

they might be in some lore page but mostly theyre for reference. for setting up the characters, weapon designs, world building, storytelling, comics, update pages, etc.

this is similar to mentioning stuff about rocket jumping, stairs and abraham lincoln

[next nymph]

I did kinda feel something similar with the descriptions. They were a little imbalanced with how much setting background was covered, some going over specific locations and such while others are a bit of a blank slate in that regard. Not a complaint at all with the setting details that are there, I like them. But I feel like Remi and Scruff could benefit from the same kind of setting details that Tomoe and Bruce have.

[high current]

• Honestly I’d say tryout pocket soldier in the game. I think pocket soldier can still be relevant, just Froyo’s playstyle has been gunboats and basically everyone but G6 is just copying Froyo, and G6 just happens to also run gunboats. Plus I think with even slightly different map design or game balance shotgun could come into meta. Maybe it doesn’t and it gets scrapped, but you’ll only know if you try imo.
• I agree, I just think it’s something to keep an eye on. I hate playing with sniper and without off classes lasts will also likely be easier to break without them. You can also discourage stale lasts by lightly penalizing playing to reset on last. An idea I had for RGLs config is that for every round reset on last, the “mid point” shifts forward 1 until a last is capped. So for example: red is on their last and hold till time runs out, the next round starts with red’s 2nd point behaving as the mid point, with blue having forward spawns accordingly.
• Unreal engine sounds like a good choice. I live pretty close to one of Epic’s campuses so I think their stuff is kinda neat. And those are good reasons, net code especially is <3

[left sand]

i suppose in my view, scruff could really be anywhere. could be in any remote wilderness. it isn't substantial stuff but could be built upon in the future.

remi same thing. i don't even know exactly where they should be. nursing home, hospital, school nurse, whatever

[high current]

I think they’re good for that. I just wanted to get that feedback out there.
I do think parts would be cool to have in game across different places, like map descriptions and character descriptions, just not all the same place. Or maybe that’d be for some comics later 👀

[next nymph]

remote wilderness would be cool to incorporate, like a real unabomber vibe

[left sand]

and i think tomoe in particular, her background being japanese, and how japan survived past the megacorps, etc. is fundamental to how the culture (especially yakuza culture) would rub off on her design

[left sand]

scruff is precisely based off of that. im so glad you caught that

[high current]

Scruff being from a moon would be bad ass. Idk why but moons seem like a perfect “frontier” for an interplanetary society.

[left sand]

bruce is kind of the same thing. it explains where he got an expensive rocket launcher and fancy blast proof shoes (which may even limit fall damage 👀?) and uses a bit of humor to get it there

[high current]

Tomoe gave off merasmus back lore. Maybe that’s just who I associate with the Yakuza, but it made me smile.

[left sand]

yes it was meant to be a slight tie-in back to that

but yes, i do think on the whole tomoe and bruce have the most well thought out lore. scruff and remi could do some more expanding once lore is more important, but i think its serviceable for the vibe of their designs.

[left sand]

tomoe weapons:

• shinzo abe shotgun
• goodbye kitty laser pistol

[high current]

The Capper 👀

The only other feedback I’d have is that “Hazard Crew” initially makes me think of a Lethal Company inspired game, not a classed base objective shooter.

[next nymph]

if this is all based on covering massive debts, my first thought after reading "Hazard" was "Hazard Pay"

[left sand]

yup 👍

[high current]

Debtor’s Debacle

Though idk if everyone would know what a debacle is, so might make remembering the name hard for some

[left sand]

i think rhythm and recognition is supremely more important than being directly transferable to gameplay

most famous example: Rocket League

[high current]

That’s fair. Hazard Pay has a nice rhythm

I mean the cars are rocket powered and play in a soccer league

But I agree with the idea lol

[fickle dragon]

I was just using NVIDIA Profile Inspector and noticed these compatibility flags applied for TF2. I'm curious, anyone knows what exactly they fix?

I also noticed it a few months ago, and back then it still only applied to the now unused hl2.exe, but it seems like they added the new binaries in one of the driver updates, maybe the latest one.

[kind falcon]

driver forced bs

videodrivers are a mess and you should not torture yourself with the divine knowledge

[fickle dragon]

I see, still would be cool to know why these are needed.

[fickle dragon]

Messing around with antialiasing options since this app gives many more options, including 4x4 supersampling. Almost GPU bound in TF2, so close

[glass musk]

sad

should I be using an older version of mastercomfig? @left sand

[uncut spear]

unless there's clear issues with 9.10.3 you can use it

it's worked fine for me so far

[oblique tangle]

9.10.3 is great

that's what i think

[drowsy marlin]

Comfig 10 release date: when it is finished

idk how more clear that can get

[radiant merlin]

9.10.3 in my case be like 😭 😭 😭 😭 😭 😭 (jk)

[oblique tangle]

holy guacamole

great googily moogily

[uncut spear]

LMAO

[sterile ferry]

how do u even do thay 💔

[glass musk]

that was not my question

[wild grove]

Ohhhh my PC 🗣️ 🔥

[drowsy marlin]

whjen its done

[burnt dragon]

Hazard Crew doesnt fit the theme I think

something like HazarDous Debt

where Debt is on second like and using D from Hazardous

could be an interesting look

no subclasses seem like a bad idea imo, taking away creativity from player and ability to choose how to play is a special thing that not many FPS games allow

on other hand if you allow different weapons for primary/secondary and not get too far from main weapon circle of characters, that could also work

stuff seems exciting but the best support I can give is if you need a medical care station in the office I can sit there

[left sand]

i just dont think 6s wants to be thet game tbh

everything about it is screaming for a streamlined flow

[oblique tangle]

what is hazard crew

[wild grove]

game mcoms wants to make I think

[left sand]

are you happy

[glass musk]

not really but wdym

[left sand]

aww im sorry, i just meant #announcements📰 message

i released a new dev build

[left sand]

for this

[glass musk]

omg, you made me think so much... I've been so tired and stressed and depressed, so I came to the conclusion that me bringing the message up was potentially rude. (wasn't my intention)

thank you for the new build

[high current]

Are you using purple as a theme color because it’s a combination of red and blue? Or just because that’s the color you’ve chosen?
If it’s to symbolize red and blue? I think having them separate and having menu UI half red and half blue (done right), could capture the lore of red and blue battling it out.
If that’s just the color you chose then my point is ignorable.

[glass musk]

this is only because of Discord btw

image previews aren't displayed in full quality

oh

someone already brought it up

[left sand]

i just think purple is a unique neat color which isnt red or blue, and i didnt wanna do a red/blue logo

that it was a combination of red and blue was a coincidence

[eternal haven]

Can someone give me access to the tf2 perforce I wanna enable dxlevel 81 on linux tf2

[kind falcon]

no

[eternal haven]

SteamSad

[burnt dragon]

I think those are stuff that can be decided on later in development, for now getting a basic beta with bean models and basic flow of the gameplay would be enough to decide which path is the best to take on

[burnt dragon]

I also just saw this... I think pbr support better cubemapping and a bit higher resolution textures would fix all age tf2 has

artstyle is fairly cartoonistic which hides choppy models really well

3d modelling to add depth not only does look bad but also costs heavy performance

[burnt dragon]

and these stuff can be done on source itself as is

but thats too big of a rewamp thats not worth for a game like tf2, and not possible with all the community maps and warskins that valve legally cant be bothered with

tf2 needs the purge cs2 had, except csgo=>cs2 purge was awful and removed MANY useful and fun features/maps

[limpid panther]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xt5UaGeErH4

[potent wolf]

do you actually need the source code to do it 🤔

[left sand]

Should Hazard Crew have viewmodels?

[kind falcon]

What The Hell Is Hazard Crew

[cursive peak]

Yes but with the option to disable them?

[grim parcel]

where is it smh my head

[next nymph]

opacity slider

[cursive peak]

I never got what utility there is in transparent viewmodels.

[small siren]

*I never got what

utility there is in

transparent viewmodels.*

- steamworks

[next nymph]

i feel viewmodels do give some useful info via reload animations and such (on top of being very useful for beginners and for spectators), but serious players tend to prefer the extra visibility by not blocking part of the screen. Transparent viewmodels do both

[high current]

You still have your viewmodel but people aren’t going to be hidden behind it

If I had to he stuck with one for the rest of my life: I’d choose view models on.

[cursive peak]

But is both worth the hassle of implementing the functionality? New players can have their viewmodels until they've internalized the timings and then just get rid of them if they want.

[high current]

I don’t believe it is that complicated. Quake live had a transparent view model slider 20 years ago

[next nymph]

it's complicated in tf2 because it's done via an odd workaround, but that doesnt need to be the case for a game being written from the ground up

[cursive peak]

But it is still more work than on/off.

[high current]

Technically if you add a transparency slider it also implements an off switch, so saves you a bit of duplicate work

[next nymph]

yeah but depending on how you do viewmodels it could be an hour or so of work. If you're rendering the model directly it'd be work, but if you're rendering it to a transparent texture anyway, all the hard part is already done and you just need to multiply the alpha value on it

[cursive peak]

That's still extra work, regardless of how minimal.

[potent wolf]

not that much more than implementing toggleable viewmodels imo

[small siren]

not that much more than

implementing toggleable

viewmodels imo

- replay

[left sand]

it is a lot more work than toggleable viewmodels

just making a simple opacity slider to the model directly will look ugly

to make it look good, you need separate rendering for the viewmodel

[grim parcel]

can you drop the hazard crew rolling release next?

[left sand]

soon

[potent wolf]

you should have it separate from world rendering anyways to avoid the viewmodel clipping into walls

or do you mean something else

[left sand]

i mean something else

[left sand]

do you think pocket soldier (without gunboats) should have infinite reserve ammo?

im thinking one of the roles should have infinite ammo and i feel like the only one itd be balanced on (in any capacity) would be that role

[next nymph]

I'm not sure what it adds to be honest, and I'd be worried it'd take away by meaning the pocket doesn't have to occasionally take the medic off-position to get more ammo

[drowsy marlin]

Not really. It just encourages sitting in one spot to spam. Not very interesting

[left sand]

i just feel like theres a lot of ammo pressure and i want to adjust some things so theres more varied map movement pressures for resources

[next nymph]

i like the main pressures (other than enemies) being ammo personally, to me that is a streamlined game

[left sand]

for example, id really like a way to discourage scouts to be healed (perhaps giving them overheal on kits)

to sort of break up the resource patterns across roles

but i mean, im fine with it as it is

[next nymph]

maybe im an outlier though because i always thought quad damage and stuff in quake was a little silly and weird

[left sand]

i just want there to be an opportunity to keep the pocket fixed on the medic more, since i feel like thats the interesting dynamic. but i get that theres also interesting risk in getting ammo

but like, im not really tied to this. im just wondering if that variety/breakup would be good

[next nymph]

might be a bit ambitious but thoughts on splitting up roamer / pocket into entirely different characters, instead of doing the tf2 thing of soldiers doing both?

[left sand]

yeah the only way we do pocket is that

i wont be satisfied otherwise ultimately

like as temp, id be fine with reusing but ultimately i think they should be distinct characters

the only reason i did it like how it is rn, is because both have gunboats

[next nymph]

yeah, I think it logically makes sense to split them up, but I have no clue what specifically

[potent wolf]

what's stopping people from setting dxlevel to 80 on linux currently

oh hm it seems like it's getting forced to 100

[eternal haven]

When dxvk is used it gets forced to 100

And all over the codebase there are checks for linux or posix that would prevent dxlevel 8 from working

But you could work your way through those one at a time, it would be annoying to make everything still work with both togl and dxvk though

On windows I got rid of the part that forces dxlevel 100 for dxvk and dxvk works fine with dxlevel 81, though I had to set d3d9.shaderModel = 1 in the dxvk config

[potent wolf]

yeah im aware, but I imagine many of them were removed for vulkan

most of the checks are for togl, not posix iirc

[eternal haven]

Idk I tried the same thing I did on windows on linux and it was crash after crash after crash

You definitely need source code to fix it

You could probably spend 10 years fucking with the compiled game and not get it to work

[potent wolf]

modify my shitty tc2 dxvk branch to use dx80

[eternal haven]

Feel free to prove me wrong though it would be cool

I wish linux users could dxlevel 8

[eternal haven]

I guess this is a good point, many of them probably have been removed or changde

compared to the leaked tf2

[summer steeple]

linux is valve's last bastion where they feel like they can have control over dxlevel and stop people from using dx8, please let them have this

[potent wolf]

well when you put it that way, I've gotta try and do this

[summer steeple]

NOOOOO

[sterile ferry]

what is network overhead and how does it affect gameplay, curious from the dev build announcement

[left sand]

just the CPU performance overhead of networking

so just FPS

[radiant merlin]

do you want to use dx8 because of fps or the look?

[eternal haven]

Both

But really I just want the choice available

[potent wolf]

I would like to be able to make the choice to download up-to-date tf2 mac binaries with symbols

🥺

[eternal haven]

Smh

Youre just lucky you were able to do that for 10 years

[eternal haven]

But yeah I like that dxlevel 8 runs faster than 9 and I also like some of the visuals such as the medibeams and the brighter textures and the less opaque rocket trails and things like that

[radiant merlin]

i think valve would just add a "make your game look shit" option

[potent wolf]

jarate filter but brown

[eternal haven]

I mean the dx8 rocket trails just look objectively better don't they?

Since they don't block your view so much

[radiant merlin]

you don't need dx8 for that

[eternal haven]

Well tf2 uses different rocket trails on dxlevel 8

Most of us play on sv_pure servers

The few people who primarily play on servers that allow particle modding might be fine to mod them but it's not really a general solution

[high current]

Eh. Tbh I feel like soldiers in spam exchanges tie themselves to ammo packs and just stand on/near the ammo pack and spam. You’d probably see more movement without ammo limitations. Just my theory though, I may just be Gullywash-pilled after playing it last week.

[high current]

It’d be kinda interesting if pocket soldier was the older sibling of roamer soldier.
You could implement some in-lore motivation for one being more protective, like they were separated by their parents for [insrt dystopian reason here] and the pocket had to parent the roamer. That’d explain the similarity in kits but the difference in role.
Just an idea

[next nymph]

Bruce is a proud working-class American. I don't think it fits for him to have access to healthcare

[left sand]

An equally funny thing would be if Bruce was separated from his pocket brother at birth, and their parents were very rich. So Bruce grew up poor and had to work in the mines from the age of 5

And then his pocket brother has that pocket mentality because of relying on his parents

He gets a huge sum of money through inheritance but burns it on a crypto rugpull and is it massive debt from options betting or something

So he gets a nepo job as a security guard in the military at a quiet area

And then he's reassigned to the space wars but defects because he's scared

But he gets captured by space pirates who force him to fight

[broken haven]

this tf2 shit still so serious

i play mge after like a year of not playing and already someone shit talking me

[radiant merlin]

i would say "touche" but i just saw this

i didn't know that was possible

[eternal haven]

Wtf they leaked the method

Now valve's gonna fix it

[uncut spear]

HOLY SHIT WTF

that is insane

[eternal haven]

I found out you could do that like 5 years ago lol

the vpk hash checker is broken

so you can just edit them

[uncut spear]

god quickprecache needs to be updated too

the person behind that added linux support I think

but that was like 4 months ago

[eternal haven]

Yeah anyways multipart vpks are supposed to check the md5 hash of each chunk but for sv_pure the tf2 client just verifies that the directory file is signed with the correct public key but doesn't check any of the md5 hashes of the chunks

But valve is definitely going to fix that now that someone posted it on gamebanana

[left sand]

who will

[summer steeple]

i honestly kind of wonder if valve will fix it or if its just kinda so far out from when MYM and JI that they don't really care anymore

well i mean it does defeat the point of sv_pure i guess

not just for causal but just in general

valve almost certainly is at least tolerant of preloading for stuff like viewmodel anims, but this bypass certainly has other implications

[eternal haven]

I guess technically they 'fixed' this and then it broke again or something

I remember there was a github issue about it

https://github.com/valvesoftware/source-1-games/issues/887

[glass musk]

"definitely"

[eternal haven]

It would take like 5 minutes to fix lol

It would make your game load slower though

[glass musk]

up to them if they want to fix it

[uncut spear]

instead remove dx8 and get rid of all hats

[glass musk]

dx8 needs to be purged

[potent wolf]

purge dx8 and add a dx11 renderer

[glass musk]

yop

[potent wolf]

(not in a million years)

[eternal haven]

Current tf2 never uses directx 8, it makes a d3d9 device no matter what. Maybe in 2007 tf2 could use dx8, I don't know. Now it's always dx9, but when you use dxlevel 80 or 81 it tries to only use features that existed in dx8 and avoids using features that were added in dx9, but it's still a dx9 application, you need a dx9 capable gpu/driver to play tf2 right now, even on dxlevel 80.

[potent wolf]

ToGL is the greatest thing ever

[eternal haven]

https://tenor.com/view/they're-true-you-know-theyre-true-you-know-morgan-freeman-morgan-freeman-true-true-gif-14939232310492062624

[eternal haven]

I guess I didn't even really consider this, it will take like 30 seconds longer to connect to a server while your game md5sums 15gb of data

[glass musk]

[eternal haven]

I can't think of any simpler way to do it unless they rearchitect the vpk system somewhat

[glass musk]

Volvo don't fix... I need my pre-jungle inferno flame and pretty minigun casings

[eternal haven]

sv_pure is kinda trash anyways it's been fully clientside since like steampipe

so your client can just lie

actually it doesn't even need to lie because the server never asks it anything

[left sand]

dx8 has pretty much always been a feature level of dx9 since over two decades ago

fixed function pipeline graphics

[eternal haven]

Yeah I know

[left sand]

it has nothing to do with the c++ interface

[eternal haven]

Well have you gone through and verified that tf2 doesn't use any dx9 features while in dxlevel 80

because I haven't but I would not be at all surprised if it does

[small siren]

*because I haven't

but I would not be at all

surprised if it does*

- x

[eternal haven]

and it would work

nobody would notice

[left sand]

i havent fully verified that but thats what it seems to do, and that argument is kinda irrelevant

because the base pass is what matters

not full spec compliance

[eternal haven]

Sure I understand

It's "basically dx8"

since dx8 is a subset of dx9

and tf2 at least looks to stick to that subset

[left sand]

especially in these sorts of discussions, the distinction matters even less, because when people ask for dx8 to be removed, its because of the dx9 exclusive features of future engine branches

and sure

dx8 still even "worked" in csgo

you could force it

but thats never been the point

whether this or that subset of features runs at all isnt the point

[small siren]

*whether this or that

subset of features runs at

all isnt the point*

- mcoms

[eternal haven]

Yeah makes sense

[left sand]

its all about targetted feature level support

csgo dx8 barely rendered models properly

you could argue its a legitimate dx8 since its following all the "restrictions" of the dx8 level

but its not really, because it doesnt render anything as intended

[eternal haven]

I think you can even do that in tf2

force it to use dxlevel 70 or 60

[left sand]

yeah

[eternal haven]

The only way I see valve stripping out the dxlevel 8 stuff is if they also strip out togl and just kind of start everything fresh now that they have feature parity across windows and linux thanks to dxvk

But I doubt they'll do it

[left sand]

i mean dxvk shaderapi is kinda like

a huge hack

[eternal haven]

Prior to dxvk on linux it I can't see them stripping out dxlevel 8 and doing things better while still supporting togl

[left sand]

i mean at this point the train is long gone

there is literally 0 future on this version of the engine

[eternal haven]

Like togl is just as as much cruft as the dxlevel stuff

[left sand]

the only reason it gets updates is because of misyl pretty much

i mean, because its source 1, misyl gets to do stuff

because valve wont

and i mean

tf2 source 2 port would be hell

[eternal haven]

Personally I kinda like tf2 how it is

I hope they don't do some major change

[left sand]

i personally think if tf2 is to have a future, it should get upgraded through a port

a real full port

the content creation for the community and accessibility to internal changes that source 2 would bring is just unspeakable

ofc, it seems like source 2 is still not ready for multiplayer FPS games

judging by cs2

[eternal haven]

But then source 2 will get old and you'll be wanting the "next new thing ™"

Does it ever stop?

[left sand]

thats not the point

the point is that right now, valve is on source 2

theres a majority of the company that hasnt even touched source 1 ever

im not asking for the next new thing

im asking for the current thing

[eternal haven]

Well I hope at the least if they do that they make a new game

Rather than the cs2 cringe

[left sand]

why? if its indisguishable besides maybe some qol, why make a new game?

in the cs2 case, i totally get it, it was a rough launch

[small siren]

*in the cs2

case, i totally get it,

it was a rough launch*

- mcoms

[left sand]

they should have extended the life of the old csgo branch

[eternal haven]

I don't care how smooth the launch is they should have kept csgo just like they kept all the past counter strike games

and made cs2 as a new game

[left sand]

well the difference between them isnt the same

just like dota 2 vs dota 2 reborn

like dota 1 is a separate game

from dota 2

[eternal haven]

That's a good point but it doesn't change my opinion

[left sand]

dota 2 and dota 2 reborn are just the same game but with an engine port

[eternal haven]

But I see what you're saying that as the games are more and more 'services' it's harder to keep the old one

[left sand]

well that and also just its like a ship of theseus thing

like the constant upgrades, its hard to tell when something is a new game or an incremental upgrade

cs2 was basically, besides the removed content because of the rushed launch, a major update for cs2

all of those could have theoretically been done to csgo independently

and it would have been fine

new smokes

[eternal haven]

Changing the engine entirely warrants a new game

[left sand]

netcode improvements

[eternal haven]

IMO

[left sand]

changing the engine is kinda a meaningless distinction

because it matters how that impacts the game

[eternal haven]

Not really

[left sand]

what defines the engine being "changed"

source 2 is just a series of incremental improvements to source 1

[eternal haven]

You can appreciate that enough is different between csgo and cs2 that it constitutes as more than just 'an update' in the same sense as other game updates

I hope anyways

[crisp cedar]

i think in any case the econ is a big problem

[left sand]

well, thats not really my point, because theres a difference between a theoretical version of cs2 that im bringing up, still on source 2, and one that actually launched

for example

like if they JUST launched the volumetric smokes

as an update to csgo

should they have split up the game?

obviously not

okay what if they JUST launched the subtick system as an update to csgo?

[eternal haven]

But here they've fundamentally changed near 100% of the engine all in the course of a year

[left sand]

besides marketing hype, that could have even been a single misc patch note in some random update

[eternal haven]

It's different than doing incremental major updates over a longer time

I don't think they ever could have gone from old csgo to current cs2 via smaller incremental updates

[left sand]

so youre saying shock value in terms of changes plays a part?

they could have

definitely

[eternal haven]

I'm not convinced

[left sand]

it was an intentional choice seemingly to make cs2 so brazingly different

there was definitely a different cs2 planned

[eternal haven]

but I don't know that much about source 2 to be fair

[left sand]

that would have taken much longer

and they decided fuck it

and did a rebrand instead

like, if you were keeping up with source 2 internals in dota 2 and such

they were adding features to basically run source 1 in source 2

this was taking them years and years

they kept promising source 2 port for csgo

and it kept getting pushed back

then they just backported the source 2 UI system

and then kept working on the rest

like particles, shaders, maps, etc

and then suddenly in the year that the limited test came out

that work completely stopped seemingly

and they were just like

lol lets just launch it "good enough"

and i still believe

the goal for cs2 is to put out all these fires

and basically make csgo with a fresh coat of paint

which IMO, is pretty much the same as any incremental live service update

like all the graphical updates they did to csgo

like the lighting updates, shadow updates, the map overhauls which completely changed the visual style of the game

the new operator models

etc

[eternal haven]

I think even if they executed it perfectly like the hypothetical you have in your mind there would still be pissed off players

[left sand]

i mean, updates piss off people

[eternal haven]

and not an insignificant amount of them

[left sand]

doesnt give people the right to play the version they choose

the company has the right to maintain a unified live service

and not split the playerbase

if they choose splitting the playerbase is fine (minecraft) then thats their right to choose that

[eternal haven]

I mean the company has the right to do almost anything

in this context

[left sand]

yes but im saying, its not self sacrifice to choose that

they are fully powerful, socially and technically, to make that decision

and evidently, people follow

cs2 player numbers have grown

vs csgo

[eternal haven]

Well all of that is true

I don't disagree

[left sand]

and like

that isnt to say i dont get your sentiment

but i feel like, as technology increments for live service games become smaller and smaller

and its really just honing done some dumb details

and maybe sometimes putting a fresh coat of paint

theres less of an argument to launch a new version

like how many people get tired of the new cod every year

relaunching the same multiplayer

maybe its a whole rewritten engine from scratch (it usually is mostly)

but people dont really care because effectively, even theyre using an entirely new rendering algorithm its effectively the same

and cod caught on, they have live service versions of some cod gamemodes

[small siren]

*and cod caught on, they

have live service versions of

some cod gamemodes*

- mcoms

[eternal haven]

I genuinely would prefer launching multiple versions of games rather than a game that's solely a live service

[left sand]

i get that

and ultimately thats the minecraft model

it has tradeoffs

for both the company and the player

[eternal haven]

It's great if the game gets updated like a live service, but when they practically 'change everything', to me, I prefer that it's a new version of the game

but I completely understand that that's not necessarily in the developers' best interest

[left sand]

i just feel like, if the mechanics are kept the same, then it can be sold as the same game

if they do a shitty port and the mechanics break

then its not

for example, cs1.6 vs cs:s

[eternal haven]

I think a game is more than its mechanics even if the mechanics are the most important part

[left sand]

they changed the core identity of the game

so many things were different

people rejected it

because the shooting, movement, map design, core philosophies, all did not match player expectations

the goals of cs:s were entirely different than the goals of cs1.6

id argue that csgo was a return to form, back to cs1.6, and cs2 is a recommitment to that exact same goal

and thus, i feel like its clean and fine to replace csgo with cs2

i definitely think its disagreeable

and theres downsides

but i think its not totally unacceptable

eventually, cs2 will perfectly align to csgo, because their goals are aligned

its just a botched port that makes it different in the bad ways

[burnt dragon]

I think cs2 has its map setting gameplay and performance downgrades

but yes I can see the core philosophy is the same

[left sand]

what is "map setting gameplay"

and regarding performance downgrades, id say those would largely be a bug

of course, theres some expected technology upshift but if its drastically different then its a bug

[burnt dragon]

while porting they decreased the map choices/removed settings that used to be a thing and performance problems are well known

[left sand]

i mean, they intend to bring all the maps from csgo into cs2, no?

[burnt dragon]

its been more than 2 years tho didnt it?

[eternal haven]

Yeah I didn't even consider performance

[left sand]

yes but they rathered give the value that cs2 provides rather than delay it

for the small value its lacking

[eternal haven]

If you replace the old game, people have to buy new hardware in order to keep playing

If you keep the old game, the people with old hardware can keep playing it for some while until they buy new hardware

[burnt dragon]

source 2 provides respectable tools to mapmakers and I respect that

nowadays rarely game devs make ray tracing baked into maps

and that helps performance of the game a lot but it still suffers

[left sand]

You can still play it

[eternal haven]

Yeah I guess

[burnt dragon]

theres many cases where new maps have their own issues like shadows can show player locations behind walls with lighting behind them

[eternal haven]

I wonder if anyone's running servers for it

[burnt dragon]

which didnt happen on csgo

[left sand]

and they provided game coordinator support for it

until the end of 2024

[burnt dragon]

theres servers

[burnt dragon]

mcoms lose track of time while working on comfig app

[eternal haven]

I wonder if valve has ever patched csgo since cs2 came out

[burnt dragon]

not official ones but there is

[eternal haven]

Like fixing any security issues

[burnt dragon]

they didnt

they didnt

[left sand]

they didnt

[burnt dragon]

legacy only exists for garrys mod

why dont I get a green heart >w>

hell yeah

[uncut spear]

They did not.

[burnt dragon]

horse react that person!

[uncut spear]

NO PLZ

[potent wolf]

this is bait

[summer steeple]

i'm so sad this didn't get released

it would've been so awesome

instead cs2 has what, some bat files to quickly and messily convert some source 1 materials to source 2 ones

[eternal haven]

The person who posted that the vpk chunks aren't checked on gamebanana is banned from rgl for cheating

I wonder if they were banned for that or for actual cheats

[left sand]

i believe theres threads of people doing particle mods

[high current]

Unless they stream, there is a 99% chance it is for actual cheats. RGL is not equipped to catch game exploits as far as I know, and I don't think they would have been ahead of the rest of the community on finding things like this.

[eternal haven]

I think they used to stream, idk

I have to admit it's kind of funny to me that they made this entire complex python project (and it still requires preloading I think) when you can change all particles by just changing like 1 char in the files and it switches them no preloading needed

who knows how many hours were poured into that python project

you can just put the particles in a custom folder of your choosing and change the path in particles_manifest

[high current]

TBF game companies don't care about this and likely never will. It would have lost Valve a metric ass load of money to split the CSGO and CS2 communities and whatever skin economy implications came with that. Rather than alienating the relatively small minority of gamers that play CSGO on lowend hardware (I assume most people playing CS at this point are dedicated fans who have probably invested into their setup to play it).

I feel like if they got banned for a mods (not cheats) I would have heard about it in the hud discord. I've only ever heard they cheated.
And typically cheaters tend to also be the ones that have deeper levels of datamined knowledge, so wouldn't surprise me.

TBH they could have just been bored and wanted to make the python project. Or wanted a simple solution for the people that panic the moment they open a text editor.

I spent countless hours trying to work out the kinks of log-base and recently countless hours to figure out automatic demo recording using huds, just because people will find ways to mess things up if you don't do it for them 🤷‍♂️
Also because its fun.

[eternal haven]

I guess I just meant the method is convoluted

[high current]

Oh cukei made that? Yeh they 100% cheated

[eternal haven]

You could achieve the same thing with like 20 loc instead of however many hundreds they use to do it that way

[high current]

There's a pretty fun montage of them walling in invite from a demo-review perspective. I guess it could have been with modified textures to simulate wall hacks, but at that point whats the difference.

[eternal haven]

lol

I bet it was

[high current]

Maybe, they were omega blatant so I feel like they weren't to concerned about being caught. They probably did whatever was easiest at the time.

IDK how people would feel about directly posting the link, but Gungon from froyo made a montage of it.

[oblique tangle]

wait gold is actualyl Au??

like australium?

it's real life based??

[eternal haven]

Yes

They based real life on tf2

[half rose]

mastercomfig dev build benchmark

preset: low
+some flame custom particle

5600X + RTX 3070

[broken haven]

https://vxtwitter.com/nyarklark/status/1886698924951392638

[left sand]

thoughts on movement tech like mantling and crouch sliding?

[next nymph]

imo: my favorite advanced movement is when it's an emergent mechanic and has a very high skill ceiling and room for creativity (ie. rocketjumps). You might be able to do some cool stuff with certain crouch sliding implementations but the more dedicated movement mechanics get implemented, I think the more you take away from the cool emergent mechanics

[left sand]

i mean, to be fair, at the point of tf2, blast jumping is hardly emergent

its very precisely tuned and designed in terms of the forces applied to the player movement

i would say crouch sliding is just as much of an emergent mechanic as rocket jumping is, if we're talking about it in that context

[paper sluice]

Crouch sliding is alright if that’s the direction a game wants to take
Definitely the easiest way to make it feel like a “movement” game and can feel really nice in certain implementations like ultrakill but mantling ehhh
Most implementations of it imo feel really clunky and interrupt game flow
It’s really only good for grabbing barely missed jumps or heights but it can get annoying sometimes mid fight like in fortnite when you only meant to jump

[next nymph]

I don't mean "emergent" as "unplanned" as much as "a natural consequence of simple mechanics being applied in interesting ways"

[broken haven]

mantling is cool i love it in fortnite

[broken haven]

are you adding these in tf2 as a mod or?

[high current]

Mantling feels disruptive IMO. I only really like it as a means of getting up a ledge you just barely miss. Which IMO would be better implemented as just treating all ledges as if they were a single step on a set of stairs, ie if youre within 6 inches of the top you just step up onto the top when traveling in the appropriate direction (or maybe this takes effect after some time spent in air to prevent weird near-ground behavior).

Crouch sliding I like as a means of preserving momentum, kinda like how it is in Diabotical Rogue or how it is mostly used in Apex. But when it's used as a stand-alone tech or becomes some mess of Star-Craft level inputs to become its own tech, I'm not a fan of it. I guess I'd rather it feel like a limited-use auto-bhop rather than most slide implementations.

[grim parcel]

waiting on hazard zone

hazard crew

[high current]

I also think when you introduce stuff like that you open up the flood gates to other spaghetti that turns into movement tech, like Apex's Super Glide which comes from mantling.
Granted that can be cool, but IMO the movement tech in Apex feels less elegant than in TF2, everything is as convoluted as C-Taps are and more impactful, so it incentives macros or goofy Wooting keyboard configs to stay competitive.

[grim parcel]

hi @left sand,

i hope this message finds you well

please give me early access to hazard crew i will give such great feedback and i am very excited for the future of master of communications game development ;steamhapp

thank you for your consideration
-getchoo

[high current]

I also like this idea, it got burried when I was at work. But the "wait a second... Are these guys related" lore is A+ imo.

[oblique tangle]

quake movement only

oh youre talkign for that new gam eof yours

idk the game with the funnest movement i ever played was probably apex legends

(not a good game in any other department)

[grim parcel]

i like crouch sliding, but you gotta be able to slide

every floor should be slippery unless it's like directly uphill

[small siren]

*every floor should be

slippery unless it's like

directly uphill*

- iron fist main

[grim parcel]

everything is mopped up

apex/tf|2 make it feel good

[oblique tangle]

but remove the stchoopid apex deadsliding worst feature ever

like you're past the slide coolddown, press C and you just sneak? like you're clearly supposed to slide but you just don't for some reason

[next nymph]

i think if you had decent sliding + decent rocketjumping, especially if they had some interplay momentum tech going on (which, if you have both, they should) I worry that the game would end up too fast and movement focused

[oblique tangle]

not talknig about trying to slide upwards that's doo doo

idk what the game even is about

is it an fps?

[grim parcel]

not a thing

[potent wolf]

and youre saying thats a bad thing?

smh

[grim parcel]

exactly

[next nymph]

im not a math major

[grim parcel]

you're basically telling mcoms not to make peak here

[high current]

Make an in-lore reason for sliding. Mines are filled with biting-insect filled mud up to the knees. To protect themselves, characters apply a lubricant to their legs to prevent the mud and insects from being able to climb up them. In gameplay sliding excessively rubs off this lube and is why sliding becomes less effective when spammed until a recovery time has passed.

[potent wolf]

add wallrunning for good measure

[grim parcel]

might be a little much

just maybe

[potent wolf]

and maybe a grappling hook too

[grim parcel]

could restrict crouch sliding to some classes actually

[grim parcel]

that could help avoid this problem

[potent wolf]

and giant mechs you can pilot

[oblique tangle]

make the player wear a backpack that's really just a pot frying pork rinds and the oil drips down and makes their feet slippery

[grim parcel]

since no class could rocket jump and slide

[grim parcel]

masterfall

[next nymph]

thats the medbot

[cursive peak]

How is too fast an issue?

[left sand]

I think there's a limit. If people are going too fast, map size will feel too limited. Also projectiles vs hitscan

[next nymph]

i like quick shooters but it's a very different feel from tf2 etc.

i feel tf2 strikes a good balance of (momentarily) fast gameplay and still needing teamwork rather than just raw DM skill

[high current]

Also certain speeds become indigestible to new players. Like you join into a game and everyone looks like they’re no clipping around, meanwhile you don’t even know where the midpoint is… you’re just gonna uninstall.
TF2 even at its fastest you can pretty much see where people go, a soldier might rollout and get there fast af, but you’re like “oh they went that way”

[eternal haven]

This goofball leaked 2 of the sv_pure bugs in one go, I didn't even notice yesterday

I think there are only 3 left now

[potent wolf]

leak them

[eternal haven]

Just give it a year or two I'm sure someone will post them on gamebanana

One of them is pretty easy to find

[burnt dragon]

mantling is a bad way of implementing dodgy mechanics imo, crouchsliding and walljumping are if the hitboxes don't get smaller it is a good idea

imagine a rectangular chest that doesnt bend much, if you dont plan to add a headshot mechanic, characters doing actions standing half upright would keep hitbox so people wouldnt feel scammed away from the kill

adding a minimum velocity requirement for such moves and if its lower than that velocity sliding slowing you down would be a good mechanic

so players would have to time the moves and master the actions for best movement around enemy

[eternal haven]

'Popularize' is a better term maybe

I hope it doesn't lead to taking way longer to load into a server if valve decides to fix it

That's all

[burnt dragon]

I think titanfall 2 has a great movement mechanics that fits pvm style, to make it fit to pvp and fair gameplay I think heavy simplification to that is necessary

[eternal haven]

crc is not a solution

[next nymph]

crc32 is trivial to make collisions

[eternal haven]

^

it doesn't even try to be a cryptographic hash, it's a simple checksum

[potent wolf]

I don't think generating CRC collisions takes that much effort

[eternal haven]

I guess but there's a difference between cheating being accessible to every game banana user via 'legit' means vs. actual cheating

[next nymph]

sv_pure bypass mods are an entirely different realm from straight up cheats

[eternal haven]

the former kind of forces valve's hand

what jarateking said

[left sand]

im actually against using the model for hitscan, i dont really see why randomness of animation should be a part of balance, besides for headshots i suppose. but i dont plan on having those

[next nymph]

are we thinking full-body capsules for hitscan then?

[left sand]

indeed

same as projectiles

and it is technically a scout buff but i think ultimately in practice it amounts to a minor quality of life change

[next nymph]

I do think hitscan should broadly line up with visuals, even if it errs on being more permissive. Might just means characters need to be modeled carefully with that in mind, I'm not sure

projectiles, even things like the huntsman, get away with it because you're just clicking the visual, you're predicting where they'll broadly be

[left sand]

yeah, i do want to make the sizes different

and capsules help a lot anyway

with that

vs aabb

[next nymph]

maybe the ideal is a static sdf to closely align with the model at all rotations and animations

[eternal haven]

Is discord status page fake

Discord was down for a good 5+ minutes before the status page showed anything

[next nymph]

but it is showing something

[eternal haven]

Yeah eventually

They already had a human written message typed up and posted before any of the graphs showed anything

[left sand]

well

sometimes you dont want to show anything for spurious failures

[eternal haven]

Yeah it seems like that's the approach they've taken

5 years ago the discord status page used to actually reflect the quality of service quite well

[left sand]

tomoe: 36 radius

bruce: 54 radius

scruff: 48 radius

remi: 48 radius

[left sand]

should explosions affect projectile trajectories?

should projectiles explode midair if they hit each other? deflect? pass through?

[potent wolf]

I feel like this would make it incredibly hard to predict projectile movement

[next nymph]

trolling rocketjumpers by shooting their rockets first

(no I dont think they should)

[eternal haven]

no

[eternal haven]

pass through

Wait how does projectile collision work in tf2?

[potent wolf]

I think exploding if they hit each other is worth a try, although I can't imagine it would actually happen that often unless projectiles are really slow

[eternal haven]

It feels like some projectiles can collide and some can't

in tf2

[limpid panther]

collide, but with a smaller hitbox than other collisions and only head on (so like, only of their trajectories form an angle of 170° or more)

otherwise, pass through without deflecting

[cursive peak]

Could delete each other like in TF2. I actually have seen a clip of a crossbow bolt deleting a rocket and saving the Med.

[potent wolf]

Does that happen with all projectiles? I've never seen it happen myself.

[eternal haven]

I swear it's only some

I've never seen 2 rockets hit

[limpid panther]

I think I've only seen bolts vs bolts

[eternal haven]

but I've seen stuff delete a demoman pipe unless Im tripping

[limpid panther]

or arrows or the like

[next nymph]

in tf2 they delete but i think they should pass through

[burnt dragon]

then the random bullets will be count as hits and others will be miss even tho they should have been hits

if the game gets popular I am sure there will be videos of messy hitreg on instagram and youtube if you use a capsule

especially on a pvp level there WILL be people trying to maximize competitiveness and record themselves playing, and will get mad that shots seemingly missing counting as hits

so using models as a hitscan makes more sense imo

[left sand]

when would a shot miss?

also tf2 didnt allow for hits outside the bounding box for the longest time

no one really complained ever

[burnt dragon]

tf2 isnt really a comp game tho

overwatch 2 has that capsule thing I believe

[left sand]

ow2 has headshots

[burnt dragon]

mhm, well that was just my opinion, if the game feels fair with capsules than that sounds fun

[left sand]

yeah of course i'll see how it goes

[burnt dragon]

question about this one

isnt bounding box literally a big capsule over players hitbox?

it doesnt matter if a bullet misses the bounding box unless a huntsman since it doesnt actually go thru the hitbox

hunstman on other hand just yoinks the arrow and slaps to head and calls it a headshot lol

[left sand]

bullets used to limit shots to inside the bounding box

for performance

here is the first public footage of hazard crew, using a tf2 map for internal metrics testing and such

and thats not the only class youre seeing!

and the third one!

ill be looking to playtest soon to get some feedback on feel

but a few things i want to do first:

• make an actual map
• add bullet FX
• add grenade and sticky physics

what you see here being demo'd is:

• basic weapons system, implementing shotgun, pistol, rocket, sticky and grenade basic projectile and firing mechanics
• blast jumping mechanics
• double jumping
• crouch sliding
• a little bit of the rough entry work on sound design
• some character voice vignettes

so feel free to give feedback on how the guns sound, the general feeling/sound of the character voices

and if you spot anything wrong with the movement, like for example you think the crouch sliding is bad or whatever (though id prefer to get people actually testing that stuff)

or if blast jumping looks wrong

the gun models and animations are all temporary, though itll like stay for a while like that until i can get funding or something

also final note, i have no idea why OBS is making the footage choppy, let me know if i need to adjust settings, i cant be arsed to fix OBS for the 100th time anymore

[jagged pawn]

I know this kinda goes against what the goal is here but what would your thoughts be on making 6 classes, that way you could more intentionally design some differences between roles

as for reviewing the footage directly I'm not a fan of how the sticky launcher sounds, both for firing and activating. too muffled to clearly communicate info and not visceral enough to feel fun to use, which are the two key things to aim for with weapon sound design imo. the rocket launcher isn't where I'd want it to be either but it's at least better than stickies

[left sand]

i think people like the dynamicism of scout in 6s for example, where both can take on roles as needed due to their equality in function.

id also kinda want to see that more for soldier as well, and get out of the pocket mindset

but it's something im still open too

theres tradeoffs for both

[jagged pawn]

that's fair. soldier has definitely been trending in that direction in recent years

[left sand]

yeah, the sticky launcher is more of a thematic venture

i want to get some explosive and pop in there too

just trying to get "goo" in there basically

a more organic weapon

but interesting note about the fire sound, that was closer to how i was tracking it

but i agree, needs some more meat

[jagged pawn]

yeah I def get the thematic difference and I'm not expecting an explosive sound or anything

[left sand]

yeah its just, theres no core central meat to it

[jagged pawn]

but like the rocket launcher you made for example has a bit more punch to it while still sounding organic

yeah

[left sand]

its got the outer sounds but not the inners

what about the rocket launcher you feel like could get it to where you wanted it?

or do you think maybe it could be a visual design/sync thing as well

[jagged pawn]

ok I'm gonna be so real I didn't realize that I had the video at half volume LMAO rocket launcher sounds fine

I will say, I could be very wrong on this and if you make the change I may be like "actually that sounds worse" but the sounds almost sound reversed? like, the firing sounds like an impact and the impact sounds like firing, if that makes any sense

[left sand]

for the rocket launcher?

[jagged pawn]

yeah

[left sand]

yeah i can see that

[jagged pawn]

like when you fire it sounds like a thud of impact

[left sand]

though i was going for a pharah vibe

like a more kinetic/explosive launch to the rocket

[jagged pawn]

using overwatch as a reference for anything other than what not to do

[left sand]

thats true

though i do like the rhythmic thump of the rocket jumping

i think if they were switched it would feel a bit worse

but i can try it

[jagged pawn]

very possible

you already know this about playtesting/feedback but I think generally speaking we're gonna be pretty good at identifying problems here but our solutions aren't gonna be super helpful lol

[left sand]

yeah, though i like hearing about how players talk about solutions

because it usually communicates the problem

[jagged pawn]

yeah for sure

[wild grove]

Is this going to be a competitive focused game or a mix of comp and casual gameplay focus?

[left sand]

this is basically a game to get the current 6s audience to play this

mostly so that competitive community can move their unique format elsewhere, not necessarily tied to tf2

and that might be the best of both worlds

because that might open up new competitive formats in the vacuum

because ive observed that 6s is basically a game designed within a game

it has its own rules format that tries really hard to make it work within tf2

weapon bans, server plugins, game settings changes, map changes

and obviously valve, isnt really interested in catering to that

and thats fine i think

i think its totally legitimate for valve to want their game to be expressed as they designed

rather than accepting a competitive format which essentially found its own fun

and i think its just fair to both sides to provide the 6s audience and the competitive people who would like to do that new game theyre trying to design, an actual new game

there wont be any casual gameplay for right now

if i find it fun enough to work on besides just catering to the 6s requirements

for example in pve modes, other gamemodes

then i might do that

but it really depends on how the systems end up being made

and the scale/popularity of the game

[high current]

I'd need to rocket jump to see how it feels. It looked a little less "lofty" to me than TF2 initially, but that could just be from the perspective of watching a video of it rather than playing.
I will say that at ~16 seconds, you do a pogo across the point and I think you weren't holding crouch while flying to the point and then you tapped crouch when you pogoed. Which ended up confusing me a bit because it looked like you got sucked to the ground to pogo. I'm not certain that series of events is what happened, or what the visual feedback that suggested that would be in particular, but that was my best guess.
When you're rocket jumping, or in the air in general, when you crouch do your feet go up or does your head go down? I know in TF2 in the air your feet go up but on the ground your head goes down.

Gameplay looked smooth to me.

• The shotgun sounded a bit harsh to me, sounds like something mechanical off gassing and made an initial high-pitch sound, if you could pitch that off-gas sound I think it would sound smoother. Pistol sounds nice, doesn't sound powerful which is fitting imo.
• The rocket launcher sounded kind of like the rocket jumper or sticky jumper, I like it, it sounds smoother than the rocket launcher in TF2. There's a "click click" at the end of the firing sound that I think is like another round being chambered? I couldn't tell if it was that's what it was or if it was part of the projectile sound. Might be more obvious down the line with animations though.
• Grenade launcher seems like the projectiles spawn from your eyes, which ends up kind of reverse flash-banging the player, it made me blink every time you shot. I like the grenade launcher sounds. The stickies seem like the fly slow, might just be an optical illusion because of the larger projectile though. The sticky bomb sound effect that lingers and sounds like sucking jello through a straw is HEINOUS, please no - the rest of the sound was fine though.

[jagged pawn]

this isn't really true? like class bans definitely change the game (in a good way, otherwise valve comp would have a scene) but other than that it's pretty much just the natural conclusion of that one decision. weapon bans are rare and are generally done to avoid centralization (heavily nerfing scout, preventing infinite last holds, etc), and things like server plugins and map modifications are either bug fixes or optimizations

as for how valve wants their game to be played, they have no idea. I would play valve comp more if it was meaningfully interesting but it's flooded with 5cp for some reason despite the lack of class limits not fitting that format at all. if they actually put more asymmetric maps in the pool then it could go somewhere but they're clueless so it's just rotting

and regardless this feels like the sort of thing that's been done to death in the plat fighter scene. melee has a lot of issues and nintendo is nowhere near amicable to the comp scene so a lot of dev teams have tried making "the melee killer", only to realize that people are just gonna keep playing melee. I'll def check out a game trying to compete with tf2 but if you're trying to replace it then I don't see that happening tbh

[left sand]

well i dont seek to replace tf2

[jagged pawn]

the comp scene I should say

[left sand]

i just want to provide 6s in its full form

i dont want to replace the comp scene either

im not gonna do highlander or anything

sure its a large part of it

i suppose

is there any particular reason that you see why it wouldnt be picked up?

perhaps something from the melee community that causes it

[jagged pawn]

I mean think of it this way. if you've been playing the same game in a competitive capacity for the last 24 years, you're gonna get deeply entrenched in exactly how its systems work, to the point where even changes that are ostensibly quality-of-life improvements are going to feel off to you. so if a new game comes around and says "hey guys, do you like melee? check this game out! it's like melee!" then the obvious response to that is going to be "why would I not just keep playing melee?"

[left sand]

yeah i do want to adjust the projectile launch location

and yeah, those were probably reload sounds you were hearing, im still working on reload sound triggers

[left sand]

i mean, my approach is going to be to design around that

i dont want to rock the boat at first much

and if people feel comfortable

[high current]

Eh. TF2 players get pretty fed up with a lot of TF2 mechanics. I don’t see myself quitting TF2 for any game, but I’d certainly welcome a game to share my playtime with.

[left sand]

then the game can progress past it

and i feel like yeah

[jagged pawn]

melee is way more broken than tf2 imo

[left sand]

theres all sorts of bugs that the comp community needs fixed

and they try to fix them with plugins

and some of them cant be fixed

i cant see why people would be against things being better

[high current]

Honestly I think a better analogy would be Diabotical as a spiritual successor to Quake. I’m not sure of the exact differences between the games, I personally really liked Diabotical. I’m sure some enthusiast has ideas on why Diabotical died out and Quake Live still has a player base (of 300 or something).

[heavy solar]

@high current has leveled up! (22 ➜ 23)

[left sand]

i think theres a clear difference of diabotical dying

6s is a game within a game in some ways

[high current]

I admit I played neither diabolical nor quake enough to know

[small siren]

*I admit I played

neither diabolical nor

quake enough to know*

- peachestv

[left sand]

its the community finding a format that works

and i want to give the format its own full game

its happened before

[high current]

But I think it’s a good analogy for what I think grapevine was trying to get at.

[left sand]

just like battle royale games

dayz and such

[high current]

I personally am really excited for a game that has the mechanics that 6s wants

[left sand]

the playstyle of 6s is, imo, completely different than pubs or even highlander

and its not just a skill thing

its like a hypertuned theorycrafted version of tf2

and i think that deserves its own game

[high current]

I wouldn’t say it’s completely different. I think it’s just the most streamlined version. If you play a pub around getting an uber/banner it plays similarly to 6s. But 6s just removes all the extra junk from that.

[left sand]

diabotical is trying to be a straight copy of quake basically. im not making tf2 over again just to host the 6s format within that. im making a game for 6s. i feel like 6s is a unique game design, its not just a 6v6 competitive format

[high current]

I agree it deserves its own game

[left sand]

yeah but that streamlining changes a lot of the dynamics, velocity, etc

[high current]

That’d be my guess. Diabotical was so close to Quake that it was basically competing for the established player base that Quake has. Or that’s my uneducated theory

[high current]

That’s true. It’s like a formula one car and a Toyota Prius fundamentally do the same thing, and you can strip down a Prius and make it faster. But formula one cars will still be leagues faster.

[left sand]

yeah

[high current]

Purpose built versus polished turd

[left sand]

and this basically is taking formula one cars from street racing to a real race track

sure, the jank with driving fast cars is going to still be a vibe

but anyone wanting to actually seriously compete is going to go to the race track

[high current]

Yeh I look forward to it. Did you have any ideas for artstyle?

[left sand]

(street racing formula one would be crazyyy though)

[left sand]

im debating a few

but i feel like embracing what 6s players want is the main point of the game

so I'm thinking very simple textures

maybe even as simple as clean tf2+

[high current]

Don’t they kinda do that? I guess it’s closed streets so it’s debatable whether that counts when the threat of crashing into a minivan isn’t there.

[high current]

I like simple textures. My one reservation with as simple as clean tf2 is that it can make judging depth as a project class harder.
When I started flexing to soldier more from scout I quit using clean tf2.

[left sand]

yeah

though a game custom designed for that

is probably going to add more contrast and depth

so it might work

[high current]

Right. I assume there’d be depth queues designed in if that were the case

[left sand]

but yeah, im basically just trying to embrace 6s and the community

get everything in that theyre trying to do in tf2

[high current]

And I suppose map design can also help with that. TF2 maps are surprisingly detailed for what they are, but they are fairly flat compared to modern games, even just from a texture perspective

I’m a big fan of the balance of simplicity that deep rock galactic strikes.
Also Diabotical’s textures were always super pleasing to me. Not to demand making Diabotical, but I think the reason I remember it at all was for that textures.

[left sand]

that makes sense

[high current]

Do you have any thoughts on whether you’ll allow things like custom HUDs?

[small siren]

*Do you have any

thoughts on whether you’ll allow

things like custom HUDs?*

- peachestv

[left sand]

it'll be hard with unreal engine

but not impossible

[high current]

Honestly for me it wouldn’t be a deal breaker. I think if you have a nice hud you don’t necessarily need custom hud support. Might be a hot take from me though.

Something as minimal as like 5 font options and adjustable health/ammo margins would probably cover 98% of custom HUD edits. If you did want to throw huds a bone

Granted I think it’d be cool to have full hud editing options. Especially if we could do things hud editors actually wanted to do like rotating elements, custom animation triggers, etc. but that’d be the extra niche section of the hud community.

[left sand]

yeah though ideally id just fill needs that come up

[left sand]

yeah crouching might be wrong, i havent done much on it yet

[burnt dragon]

I think doing how runescape does for UI/hud is a good way

having an editor and the ability to resize/move objects of hud around is the best freedom you can provide

plus if you want you can add ability to change textures of hud but thats a bit of vanity

[burnt dragon]

this way even if UI is abysmally awful, people can fix it in their own way

[next nymph]

mockup, nothing fancy that can't be done in tf2, but potentially could do something like change the ammo icon per weapon

[burnt dragon]

really nice and slick, love it

[high current]

I think it’s theoretically doable in TF2 but would involve a crosshair script and be inelegant af.
But yeh that sort of functionality being accessible alone would probably convert the hud community to your game.

[burnt dragon]

I think I know whats in your mind and that's disgusting, I would love to see how it would turn out lmao

[high current]

People have done weapon specific(ish) crosshairs as weapon indicators, you could just implement as script such as that and position it accordingly, the rest looks doable.
Though maybe the background box would look worse because you wouldn’t couldn’t have it dynamically sized, so to accommodate things like the sniper smg reserve ammo you’d need a lot of space.

The issue with the weapon indicator crosshair scripts in TF2 is that a lot of weapons share crosshairs, I think most melees for example.

[next nymph]

yeah I didn't want to count janky workarounds because, with a game from the ground up, you could actually implement them in a decent way from the get-go

[high current]

For sure, things like that would be massive QOL for hud editors.

[burnt dragon]

https://www.reddit.com/r/tf2/comments/1ihpgrp/my_little_princess_assassin/

[radiant merlin]

does anyone here who has a super processor play in the 100 players server?

how much fps do you get?

[eternal haven]

About 100-200 fps in it, maybe 60 in the worst case, on my shitty old 2015 tier laptop cpu

mastercomfig low and dxlevel 81

[radiant merlin]

i have a ryzen 5 3600 and i get like 40 :c

[eternal haven]

What U get on sbmrk.dem?

[potent wolf]

bad settings

[eternal haven]

No it's best settings bro

[left sand]

2015 tier

[eternal haven]

10750h

skylake turd

[radiant merlin]

not doing a benchmark lol

just wondering if upgrading would get me at least 60-70 fps stable

[eternal haven]

Yeah on a current year cpu you should get a solid 300-400 on low settings and 200 ish on high

on 100 player servers