it's to keep you on your toes
#Team Fortress 2 Megathread - winter is the most chill time of year
potent wolf
summer steeple
death
this codebase needs someone to click "code cleanup" in visual studio
so inconsistent in formatting...
i'm not sure how this builds in c++
or am i stupid and c++ doesn't care about whitespace
i forget
small sirenBOT
potent wolf
c++ doesn't give a shit about whitespace
potent wolf
python user
summer steeple
i despise python
I just like formatting to be good
and consistent
and CLICK THE FUCKING CODE CLEANUP BUTTON I SWEAR TO GOD
SET UP FORMATTING FOR YOUR PROJECT THAT YOU LIKE SO IT CAN DO IT AUTOMATICALLY
I SWEAR TO GOD
potent wolf
they should push an update to the leaked code...
summer steeple
some of these else ifs are one line near the end...
and they just add stuff onto the end so things get arbitrarily split up
I saw a commented out else if statement of a key that was already further up in the file
there's one else if statement with no code associated with it
like
lua, bomb buffs for players, more lua
????????
potent wolf
i'm not sure how this builds in c++
the wrangler shield stuff was added by someone using spaces, the rest of the code uses tabs
summer steeple
its quite possible
potent wolf
i checked
potent wolf
summer steeple
no one looked at the cool thing in the bottom right of VS (and i assume this is probably in other IDEs) that tells you what the spacing formatting is
and saw it said "MIXED"
summer steeple
good.... question
potent wolf
why are else and else..if given different line-break rules
at least it's consistent
?
summer steeple
its not
potent wolf
rip
summer steeple
at all
also sidenote why are the DevMsgs commented out and not just like... hidden behind a setting, or an ifdef
well actually thats probably fine
people can uncomment if they need them to test something
potent wolf
LMAO
summer steeple
I bet if i download this and open up the project its gonna give me like 100 warnings
for like formatting alone
potent wolf
what are you doing with rafmod anyways?
summer steeple
writing up specs for a converter of .pop to a vscript compatible file
radiant merlin
ain't no way
yanderedev moment?
summer steeple
for a sort of vscript pop parser
potent wolf
yanderedev moment?
no
summer steeple
no one reads this codebase
potent wolf
you do
summer steeple
unfortunately
potent wolf
custom mvm stuff iirc
summer steeple
i found the person who codes with spaces
I hate their commit names wow
if you do this fuck you
next nymph
just write "did stuff" like a normal half-asser
potent wolf
no way lol
next nymph
are these commit names
summer steeple
yes
potent wolf
LMAO
summer steeple
DONT DO THIS
this one is for disabling the wrangler shield
next nymph
whats the bodily discharge commit about
summer steeple
i don't even know, looks like some taunt stuff?
potent wolf
summer steeple
you know I forgot that a group of people was making vscript versions of the popfile extensions
so that makes my life easier because I don't have to implement all this stuff
still need to uh, do a lot because i'm not using the mvm gamemode but still
significantly less work!
(unless i decide to help them reimplement these things which i might)
i probably should join the potato.tf discord one of these days lol
they maybe probably definitely uh, know how rafmod works
misty plover
Simply just pay me to implement it 
Jokes aside though, I really enjoy using and abusing vscript but its really not... the best solution of mods
There's a lot of things vscript just can't do, and implementing would be infinitely more effort than will ever be worthwhile for the devs
tacit flare
// This is bad dumb code but more importantly it's bad dumb code that doesn't belong here.
misty plover
There's a lot of things vscript just can't do, and implementing would be infinit...
Its a solution for a lot of problems, sure, but without putting in so much time and effort that they're essentially creating a miniature source sdk its not going to work for everything. Don't get me wrong, I've done a lot of funky stuff with vscript, I've made an entire custom system for building bossfights with boses that can be backstabbed, airblasted, knocked in the air by rockets. I've made custom spells, custom weapons, I've made entire gamemodes just playing around with vscript.
But I don't think it'll ever be a solution for everything, especially due to the very very obvious situation of there being basically a 0% chance that we'll ever get the ability to make custom huds with player specific displays, because holy shit would it be a security mess.
languid haven
Wait does Vscript have to be packed into the map or can you just run it on any map without having to have duplicate maps?
kind falcon
from my limited knowledge both can be true
languid haven
Well i know it can be packed but idk if you can just have it load for a server and it be applied without having it packed with a map like a vscript plugin or mechanic.
Or if it's possible to have a Vscript load other ones.
left sand
you can have server vscript, map vscript and also map can have server hooks for server owners to add their own custom vscript
languid haven
Thanks, that makes it a lot more clear since i haven't heard of anyone mentioning Vscript as something that could be used in a way like sourcemod. I know people use it for code in maps but i haven't seen more of a discussion like using it for custom weapons, adding tweaks and weapon balances or even making new conditions or custom pick ups. Mostly all i heard is custom gamemodes with it for maps.
craggy ridge
omg this is so clever asdoawoda
mystic turtle
Thanks, that makes it a lot more clear since i haven't heard of anyone mentionin...
In all technicality, we saw hints of this in the Saxton Hale and Zombie Infection gamemodes
With the custom viewmodels and abilities of Hale and the zombies
so perhaps all that needs to be seen is the ingenuity of the coders
coarse spruce
I bet if i download this and open up the project its gonna give me like 100 warn...
100? more like 100k
hidden gyro
spare obsidian
random tf2tuber complaining about a game mechanic that's been iconic in the game's legacy for over 10mins just so they can monetize
mystic turtle
average man that sees inflammatory thumbnail and walks off with his own conclusions
potent wolf
random tf2tuber complaining about a game mechanic that's been iconic in the game...
so you watched the video?
mystic turtle
then again we do have a habit of seeing TF2bers around here as pied pipers leading the ignorant masses of the TF2 community to greater or lesser degrees of idiocy so
summer steeple
why would i watch any video by a tf2 youtuber
spare obsidian
you should watch a tf2 youtuber and YOU would like it 🫵
spare obsidian
then again we do have a habit of seeing TF2bers around here as pied pipers leadi...
in a serius note it doesn-t help when some tf2 tubers has friendship with voldemort
livid oracle
i only know that it's not a Complaining video because ive seen solarlight say what it actually is
you would be forgiven for thinking that it is because that's 99% of tf2 youtube content
mystic turtle
in a serius note it doesn-t help when some tf2 tubers has friendship with voldem...
wait, what's up with this dude
all I know is that you're either joking about some guy's attitude or this person is basically a textbook case of toxicity
spare obsidian
wait, what's up with this dude
all I know is that you're either joking about som...
nah solaris is a good folk i was referring to your generic tf2 tubers
mystic turtle
yup
mystic turtle
i only know that it's not a Complaining video because ive seen solarlight say wh...
It's essentially "SolarLight's guide to sentry distraction"
or "how to pwn sentry with uber medic or bonk scout"
ouch sorry for ping
livid oracle
he should title it that
potent wolf
can't be a youtube video without a clickbait title
spare obsidian
you forgot the red circle
mystic turtle
wait a minute
"Engineers HATE this one simple trick! Learn how to survive Level 3 sentries without taking any damage without the need for an uber!"
crisp cedar
cursive peak
tough locust
nah he did an interview back in like 2018 and there was a pic of him he seems chill, even in 2018 he said his favorite projects to work on were scream fortress lol
jagged pawn
so you watched the video?
to be fair the last 3 solarlight balance videos I've watched were all braindead so I'm not exactly obligated to subject myself to it a fourth time lmao
misty plover
i only know that it's not a Complaining video because ive seen solarlight say wh...
Solarlight is probably the least likely to have a video that's just bitching and whining
Excluding when it comes to anything related to pyro
jagged pawn
LMAOOOOO what are you talking about
that's all I ever see him do
tbf it is mainly about pyro tho so you did cover that I guess
hoary geyser
a video about pyro from a demo main seems like a conflict of interest
limpid panther
random tf2tuber complaining about a game mechanic that's been iconic in the game...
you got trolled by demoknight tf2
unborn pecan
tf2 tubers are like
so shit
besides like FUNKe (who stopped making videos alltogether) and uncle dane
i really don't get why you'd wanna watch them
drowsy marlin
Tf2 tubers just say the same shit that's been said for several years
small sirenBOT
drowsy marlin
Incredible accidental haiku
formal dew
people must consume content
crisp cedar
basically, what i said
grim parcel
Tf2 tubers just say the same shit that's been said for several years
what happens when your game is dead
cursive peak
There's still community competitive and various events going on to talk about.
crisp cedar
the competitive side of tf2 doesnt really get much talk
small sirenBOT
crisp cedar
theres places dedicated to it but
its nowhere near as popular as just ur regular tf2 goof stuff
drowsy marlin
Competitive gaming is really niche
crisp cedar
not really
drowsy marlin
Tf2 comp gaming
crisp cedar
true
cursive peak
LuckyLuke deserves way more love.
drowsy marlin
LuckyLuke!
crisp cedar
the tf comp scene has kind of fucking nothing going on
crisp cedar
block it and moveo n
thats what i did
wtf b4nny kicked his entire team again
lol
cursive peak
Beater makes nice videos, too.
crisp cedar
remember insomnia
cursive peak
We also need a new iteration of moosetracks/the metawe
drowsy marlin
You guys think the 64 bit version will launch in summer?
crisp cedar
im sorry im not good i apologize for my ego please forgive me, im just european
misty plover
block it and moveo n
I enjoy being grumpy so I will leave it unblocked
unborn pecan
average tf2 player
cursive peak
misty plover
You guys think the 64 bit version will launch in summer?
I expect before then, but don't hold my word to it. It's primarily bugfixes they're focused on right now which is means the time left is more or less unknown
drowsy marlin
Stuff like the 64 bit update is exactly what I want out of TF2
Performance improvements and bug fixes
And especially since stuff from Team Contress is being implemented is really awesome
grim parcel
There's still community competitive and various events going on to talk about.
community competitive isn't interesting to most, especially on youtube. i think it's pretty obvious by the only videos being popular about it are the ones saying how unpopular it is, rather than any actual gameplay or commentary
it's also just expected
like talking about competitive seasons wouldn't change much. creators would still just be repeating themselves like they do with holiday updates or whatever
biggest difference ig is individual plays/matches, but that isn't really interesting in the long term either
cursive peak
It's only unpopular because of a bunch of shit heels acting like 6s and HL are unfun.
misty plover
I mean, it's really not for you to decide what people find fun or not ngl
cursive peak
People get pissy that they can't just stare at a sandvich the entire time.
grim parcel
I mean, it's really not for you to decide what people find fun or not ngl
let me rephrase then: most people may just not find it fun
next nymph
I think steamworks is right. The people who complain the loudest about comp are the least involved or knowledgable and by extension least qualified to complain about it
misty plover
No I was referring to Steamworks lol
cursive peak
It's the same shitty crowd who act like removing random crits makes the game painful to play.
grim parcel
it did, i get very sad when i can't get funny kills
cursive peak
It doesn't.
next nymph
A lot of the anti-comp attitude comes from people who frankly don't know what they're talking about and shouldn't be given any weight
cursive peak
Fucking low IQ trash. Hurrdurr funny is the only thing that makes my dick hard.
grim parcel
lmao
misty plover
My distaste for it is because I don't find it enjoyable to play at those higher levels ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
misty plover
Fucking low IQ trash. Hurrdurr funny is the only thing that makes my dick hard.
Average comp player
grim parcel
im just not into personally
potent wolf
Fucking low IQ trash. Hurrdurr funny is the only thing that makes my dick hard.
Im so fucking smart, unlike those other losers
cursive peak
Go to Hell.
next nymph
like you still hear "comp bans basically everything but stock" and you look at the ban lists and it's like 90% allowed. Like just the most basic facts are incorrectly complained about
grim parcel
by all means i know people can have fun with it
i don't think it's bad either really
just not my cup of tea
and i think most people can identify with that, otherwise tf2 would probably be a big esport
cursive peak
Bunch of fucking jackasses reacting.
stuck locust
and i think most people can identify with that, otherwise tf2 would probably be ...
honestly idk
it's been around for a while, but there is a pretty big resentment against it by a few which can dissuade new players
next nymph
I've heard people say "I'd play it if they didn't ban <weapon I like a lot>" and get crickets when I bring up "it's already unbanned"
drowsy marlin
I want to be able to play Pyro full time in 6s
grim parcel
it's been around for a while, but there is a pretty big resentment against it by...
oh yeah 100%, there are factors besides that
i just don't think they mean as much as just how the gamemode is played
small sirenBOT
next nymph
you don't have to play it, of course. But I think anyone who's been playing tf2 for this long owes it to themselves to at least give it an honest go, at the very least before forming opinions on it
grim parcel
if people enjoy something enough, i think they'll just play it regardless of what most people say
cursive peak
You get told to go play comp if you want to play objectives and/or use teamwork.
stuck locust
if people enjoy something enough, i think they'll just play it regardless of wha...
i agree, although i'm referring to the lack of new players joining comp
summer steeple
I saw someone last night complain that a casual lobby was "sweaty"
small sirenBOT
grim parcel
i agree, although i'm referring to the lack of new players joining comp
i think the same applies there honestly
misty plover
You get told to go play comp if you want to play objectives and/or use teamwork.
I rarely have that problem. Then again, I don't call people shit heelers for not finding my specific game style fun.
crisp cedar
Fucking low IQ trash. Hurrdurr funny is the only thing that makes my dick hard.
i dont like random crits either but i feel like your reaction to this is unwarranted
grim parcel
there are hurdles like the stigmatism against it and the "welcoming" community but
crisp cedar
you have a very strong opinion about a game mechanic toggleable with a cvar
grim parcel
like league gets new players for example
summer steeple
honestly i think the biggest issue holding tf2 comp back is just that there's a hurdle in the form of going to an external source
grim parcel
I saw someone last night complain that a casual lobby was "sweaty"
i HATE when people play the game 
cursive peak
You get told to fuck off the moment you get on the mic and start main calling.
crisp cedar
i think if there was money or fame in tf2 comp people would be more incentivized
stuck locust
like league gets new players for example
well league has a stronger competitive side than casual playing side, right?
crisp cedar
theres not much buzz around it
stuck locust
i'm unfamiliar with league
crisp cedar
no drama even
b4nny vs donovin
remember...
that was tf2 comp at its peak interest
tf2 comp is obscure because tf2 itself has also gotten obscure
everyone knows what tf2 did years ago but not what tf2 is doing now
because its not really doing anything now
summer steeple
well, they know about the bots
grim parcel
well league has a stronger competitive side than casual playing side, right?
yeah it does, that's fair
crisp cedar
your opinion would be skewed if your exposure to tf2 is this server since its a more technical server so aspects like that are obviously going to be inspected in and out but the average person knows nothing
crisp cedar
well, they know about the bots
thats pretty negative press
grim parcel
your opinion would be skewed if your exposure to tf2 is this server since its a ...
wdym im sure everyone is very excited about dxvk and screenshots of joshie saying something
stuck locust
tf2 comp is obscure because tf2 itself has also gotten obscure
eh, i wouldn't say it's really gotten obscure
cursive peak
RGL just announced their next LAN last night.
crisp cedar
well tf2 players are annoying as ever
stuck locust
i think it's kinda maintained the same level of popularity within the past years
crisp cedar
but nobody hears anything about tf2 other than the bot problem
okay i think
i should reiterate
theres no hype
crisp cedar
because what is there to be hyped about
summer steeple
tf2 kind of just exists out in the ether
stuck locust
because what is there to be hyped about
yeah, there hasn't been much external hype within the past years
crisp cedar
literally nothing is going on in the tf2 community
its an active community to this day yes
but there is NOTHING to talk about
literally nothing
stuck locust
tell that to the redditors arguing over balance changes lol
crisp cedar
its gotten to a point where discussing potential additions is uninteresting
the tf2weaponideas folk are a different breed
crisp cedar
its gotten to a point where discussing potential additions is uninteresting
because theres nothing to speculate on
misty plover
You get told to fuck off the moment you get on the mic and start main calling.
Again, I never have that issue. People are more than happy to push the objective if I ask on mic. Or if I say "hey medic could you spread the heals around?" They usually will.
grim parcel
the tf2weaponideas folk are a different breed
final death rattles of the community
stuck locust
but there is NOTHING to talk about
i wouldn't say there's absolutely nothing to talk about, but i would agree on nothing new to talk about
stuck locust
outside of the technical side, with the introduction of the 64-bit stuff etc
there's several different subcommunities within the community as a whole
grim parcel
btw when is valve dropping the facestab knife idea
crisp cedar
id hardly count technical sides of the community
cursive peak
The technical stuff, competitive stuff, etc.
crisp cedar
i would argue this server is only a minority of the tf2 community
most people wouldnt be interested in this because itd mean nothing to them
next nymph
i would argue this server is only a minority of the tf2 community
this server is lgbt-positive without being an explicitly lgbt community
summer steeple
btw when is valve dropping the facestab knife idea
stabs 1-5: clearly missed
stabs 6-9 missed due to packet loss (bad interp)
stabs 10-11 Very close, but packet loss and latency make these reasonable misses
stab 12: Likely didn't actually stab because he was already dead
grim parcel
that copypasta always give me a chuckle
crisp cedar
facestab knife:
upon doing a facestab, the enemy must do a qte, if they fail, they die
next nymph
nah but its not like "Bi Pyros Community" or anything where you join because you're a bi pyro
It's a tf2 configuration server
grim parcel
they should actually make spy more like sombra
from overwatch
he should get her shift ability
next nymph
make spy more like winston overwatch
summer steeple
he should get a permanent cloak like sombra
grim parcel
and the translocator so he can finally stop fucking dying after every backstab
misty plover
I am going to throw a miniature fire truck through your window
crisp cedar
nah but its not like "Bi Pyros Community" or anything where you join because you...
true id argue weve gotten more nazis than bi pyros in this server from what ive seen
small sirenBOT
grim parcel
he should get a permanent cloak like sombra
i wonder if it would be banned in comp
crisp cedar
HYPE
cursive peak
I did once score a date because I'm a gay Pyro main.
summer steeple
nice!
crisp cedar
nice
grim parcel
gaycomfig
next nymph
mastercomfig logo is gay but this server is about mastercomfig, the gay is secondary
crisp cedar
people will only be mildly excited about community content
the best way to get people to consume community made content is for when valve approves it to the game
because people dont want to play open fortress
or tf2c
next nymph
people will be excited by the announcement and then complain about every detail
crisp cedar
or creators.tf where u need to install a 20 gb vpk
grim parcel
nemesis blue is the most interesting thing about tf2 in a while
misty plover
I've still yet to watch it
crisp cedar
yeah and thats literally it
misty plover
Didn't care enough
crisp cedar
in a community-wide sense
cursive peak
People will complain about the 64 bit update.
crisp cedar
thats the most notable thing to happen in a while
misty plover
People will complain about the 64 bit update.
I'm already talking to server owners who are very upset about it lol
crisp cedar
people will only be mildly excited about community content
people want valve-made content more than anything
and valve isnt exactly willing to supply
cursive peak
The community as a whole will shit on it for not being a massive update with 12 maps, 85 weapons, and a new class.
summer steeple
honestly I think more than anything people complained that the 2023 summer update had too many maps
crisp cedar
because valve made content means actual meaningful changes to the game and not community maps or new hats
summer steeple
(and valve has said they're probably not going to add that many again)
(well, eric said that)
crisp cedar
erics the only guy around left to say that
next nymph
people want valve-made content more than anything
just not valve-made balance
cursive peak
We still need to get Ashville into the game.
crisp cedar
not necessarily balance
just new shit by valve
because community content can be accessed at any time
grim parcel
I'm already talking to server owners who are very upset about it lol
i can’t believe tf2 won’t be able to run on my pentium
crisp cedar
yet it is a hassle to access unless valve add a map to the game they didnt make
its really funny because
tf2 used to be a heavily community driven game
still is
but now in a way where its this weird mutation of valve-made and community-made
where valve depends on the community
grim parcel
if valve kept up the effort from mym we would’ve beat overwatch
crisp cedar
and the community depends on valve servers
misty plover
They simply should just give me access to the code base so I can rewrite everything in rust 
grim parcel
facts
crisp cedar
i still think mym was the biggest mistake
cursive peak
Just drop casual and return us all to the server browser.
crisp cedar
streamlining joining games is nice but they really left out community servers
but oh well im just waiting for the next step for tf2
grim parcel
Just drop casual and return us all to the server browser.
yes please make the game less accessible and more annoying to new players
crisp cedar
its going to be a long time til valve actually show interest in the tf ip again
but when they do, im sure itll be a grand return
you shouldnt ever question if valve is going to do something, the only thing you should question is when will they do something
summer steeple
the when is never
cursive peak
The game is not less accessible and more annoying with the server browser. Games did fine for years without matchmaking.
crisp cedar
i think a mix of casual + quickplay wouldve been perfect
grim parcel
but when they do, im sure itll be a grand return
TF3 TF3 TF3 TF3 TF3 TF3 
next nymph
yes please make the game less accessible and more annoying to new players
I think its kinda a balancing act, because counterintuitively it helps out tf2 communities and keeps them going, which makes people stick around
I guess that's not really counterintuitive, but a slightly higher burden of entry in exchange for much greater reason to stick around isn't necessarily bad
cursive peak
I don't even get how anyone enjoys the soulless nature of casual.
summer steeple
personally I think that casual works well, and the server browser works well for some people, but probably could use an overhaul to be easier to use
crisp cedar
its crazy how despite being less accessible, tf2 pre-mym had a shitton of influence on internet culture
like
even without casual
next nymph
ideally we'd do both, but I don't know how you would
grim parcel
I think its kinda a balancing act, because counterintuitively it helps out tf2 c...
i’ve understood this more as i’ve got into the game over the years, and honestly play on community more nowadays because of this and not just bots
but i honestly don’t think i would’ve continued playing tf2 if casual was never added
crisp cedar
tf2 had generated so much buzz somehow
grim parcel
i’m a certified zoomer who mainly grew up on console
crisp cedar
so maybe i think claiming server browser was bad is a poor argument
grim parcel
so matchmaking was just the normal thing to me
grim parcel
and i disliked having sometimes pretty shitty servers or needing to manually find them
crisp cedar
really i think just
cursive peak
It makes such a difference playing with a regular crowd. That's basically impossible with any sort of matchmaking.
crisp cedar
mym was valves attempt at reinventing the wheel, which didnt work but people still kept playing because of sunk cost
which i understand
grim parcel
mym honestly just got me way more into the game. doing away with casual completely just sounds like such a joke to me from that standpoint
crisp cedar
a lot of the angry people about mym still kept playing
because what else are you going to play
summer steeple
overwatch
cursive peak
Casual and quick play killed community servers.
crisp cedar
there wasnt a concrete way
to express your dissatisfaction about tf2 that would hurt valve
other than making the devs not want to work on it anymore
people kept playing and buying the shit they pumped out
left sand
the justification for the ban lists is dumb
crisp cedar
Casual and quick play killed community servers.
quickplay didnt do shit
left sand
the few weapons still banned are dumb and they indicate a lack of understanding for the game
cursive peak
Explain.
grim parcel
valve should drop an update where they remove most weapons
left sand
as for tf2 not being popular, its a live service game. the current regime is you're either a flavor of the month game or youre fortnite
grim parcel
and replace them with more classes
next nymph
tf2 is the original fortnite tho
drowsy marlin
Live service ruined my life
drowsy marlin
I want team fortress 2 to make me happy
left sand
you think if they added quick play back youd suddenly get a bunch of community server players
but no valve was responding to trends in the gaming ecosystem
drowsy marlin
If they added quick play back, would there be a lot of bots?
left sand
tf2 as it stands is a game people play once or twice a year for a few days
next nymph
"times have changed" but it sure felt like a massive hit the moment casual was launched. You went from "the game's decaying but our community server is comfy" to "this community server has been shut down due to inability to get players" pretty directly after
left sand
right, im not saying it didnt have an impact at the time
but if they kept quickplay the game would have been deader and the problems we see now would have happened anyway
misty plover
tf2 as it stands is a game people play once or twice a year for a few days
Pretty much, I was on my way out before x64 was announced and I'm going to leave again once I've finished tearing apart everything
left sand
and they can't bring quickplay back either to fix the problem
crisp cedar
i mean to be fair to valve, they probably didnt predict what kind of impact implementing such a system would have
for the sake of experimentation i think it was a good try
misty plover
Quickplay coming back would be a terrible mistake anyways tbh
left sand
if valve was able to wholly dictate their vision, i think the game would be in a much healthier position
crisp cedar
it is too late to revert
left sand
but they had to make a huge compromise for casual because they made it into a half quickplay half matchmaking
misty plover
if valve was able to wholly dictate their vision, i think the game would be in a...
What do you mean by this?
next nymph
yeah I agree there, there's a lot of factors that go into it and one is just the changing landscape of games. But I wouldm't downplay the effect of introducing casual on community servers either
left sand
instead of how they wanted it before, being an unranked matchmaking situation
left sand
yeah I agree there, there's a lot of factors that go into it and one is just the...
it was gonna happen eventually
so might as well make the healthier decision for the game
so you can start investing in the long term player base now rather than later when its too late
theres so many either things going against community servers
largest one being the funding problem
community servers are inherently a value sink
summer steeple
What do you mean by this?
I mean I think its pretty clear what valve wanted to do with MYM and JI that just didn't happen
JI is internally "season 1"
left sand
either you have ad ridden horrible servers
summer steeple
we're uh, still in season 1
crisp cedar
wow. so is dota underlords
personally i just feel like the game lost a bit of its soul
im not thinking in a "must maximize engagement" mindset so to me really
im just upset about losing the sense of a community
grim parcel
tf2 season 2
summer steeple
crisp cedar
its easier to be upset about things youve had before when you lose them
left sand
or you have servers which a money sink to the playerbase with donations or the server owners pay out of pocket
it is not sustainable
server costs are increasing, due to expenses of hardware going up slightly over the years from inflation, as well as other necessary aspects of hosting a game server being more prevalent, namely ddos protection
next nymph
I dunno, I sometimes wonder what tf2 would be like if it took a more minecraft-style approach. Like realms are minecraft's modernization of handling servers, but it's still maintained that sense of a community within a server. Obviously it's a different model because they're very different games (above all else minecraft's world is persistent and tf2 is not) but I do wonder about it
left sand
but that doesnt really work for tf2 since it's match centric
crisp cedar
realms would nooooot work
left sand
then finally a huge factor is that contracts dont work on community servers
people play halloween, do contracts, then leave
grim parcel
im just upset about losing the sense of a community
i only started playing around tough break so idk how it was before, but for me tf2 is like the only game with a sense of community
crisp cedar
i think you could integrate some community servers with the casual system but then
you need people to make sure the servers dont step out of line and
grim parcel
ig it's just because i'm young but most games i've played in my life just didn't have community servers
crisp cedar
and even then
why not just let valve handle it
if a community server is going to turn into just another matchmaking destination point
grim parcel
tf2 is like the one game where i've actually played with people over and over again, got to know them, and even became friends with just from randomly meeting in a pub
crisp cedar
instead of a server to frequent
grim parcel
and all that was with casual still existing 
crisp cedar
whatd be the point of integrating anyways then
left sand
well the theory is, you can revisit the same server once you find it
so you have a community anchor/base
crisp cedar
i just feel like casual in general limited how you can play the game
left sand
and then players which visit that persistent playerbase
left sand
so its more like hub worlds
crisp cedar
okay maybe
maybe i actually just dont like how casual makes you play in a certain way
okay i think i actually just had a proble mwit hte ruleset guys.
left sand
anyways, the real solution would be to approach TF2 matchmaking like an MMO/store
just like they do for Steam nowadays
summer steeple
tf2 should be an open world game where you travel to different maps and then play a match there
grim parcel
toontown online
left sand
have third party curation of Valve servers
misty plover
tf2 should be an open world game where you travel to different maps and then pla...
Shhhh
left sand
and third party curation of maps for those servers
misty plover
Don't leak my dumb project
grim parcel
tf2 battle pass
left sand
then, you have a self selecting process for both community, map, game mode, etc
this is actually ultimately what they wanted to do
next nymph
well the theory is, you can revisit the same server once you find it
that's kinda why I don't know how much tf2 being match-centric matters for this. It is, of course, but I think it's a little telling when half the community servers still going will instead keep rounds going infinitely. Because so much of the appeal seems to be the sense of community that matches don't contribute towards except arguably getting in the way
left sand
Yes but there is a defined beginning and end to play
which can be done in one session
which inherently makes it less persistent than a realm would be in minecraft
next nymph
the persistence I care about is the playerbase on a server, I guess you could say
which is also the case for minecraft, minecraft just has lots of other forms of persistence to contribute to that
left sand
yes but that doesnt mean that youd look to a realms type strategy
crisp cedar
i dont think we can really compare minecraft and tf2 here
next nymph
i dont think we can really compare minecraft and tf2 here
whats this then
left sand
but yeah
crisp cedar
trade minecraft plaza
left sand
eventually, if you connect the dots
crisp cedar
many sniper duels were held here
left sand
you can see Valve was trying to make TF2 into a community ecosystem
but they were cut short
the update after JI would have done this
next nymph
yeah, that makes sense
left sand
maybe eventually even community made contracts
left sand
but yeah, community curated hubs, community curated workshop map votes
crisp cedar
i think tf2 suffered from having had too many iterations
next nymph
i think tf2 suffered from having had too many iterations
where is team fortress underlords
left sand
and fed by the contract system to accomplish stuff on these different maps, infinite content essentially
crisp cedar
where is team fortress underlords
u wont believe what they found in the repo leak
left sand
but it was going to rely on interest in competitive because they wanted a sink
and the competitive matchmaking mode died
because people refused to endorse it with the potential it could have served
just dismissed it outright based upon it not supporting dx8
grim parcel
that was a funny controversy
left sand
ideally youd have a healthy queuing body at all levels of comp matchmaking play
cursive peak
There were weird decisions with the comp matchmaking. Queue times were awful, and then one person leaving before readying up meant going back into the queue.
left sand
but because it wasnt perfect at launch, people would rather play their own version of the game with their friends instead of do whats best for competitive
queue times were awful mostly because there wasnt a lot of people queuing after it launched
during the beta the queue times were fine, very comparable to any other queue based game
and certainly faster than any other service for competitive besides perhaps scheduled scrims
but because the community actively discouraged people on forums as a sort of "boycott" against it
it died out very quickly and fell out under itself
a ladder system doesnt work in this case
grim parcel
friendliest community in gaming
next nymph
I really do think the ultimate thing was that it didn't seem to offer anything for anyone. A big part of the playerbase was primed to hate anything with the word "competitive" attached to it, and then the biggest demographic of people who wanted competitive tf2 (namely, competitive tf2 players) just saw it as another pug system with a lot of restrictions or issues
left sand
and who cares
its by valve
that alone should make people play on it
but the competitive community is too stubborn
misty plover
I was extremely interested in official competitive but the third party comp scene actually destroyed my interest by doing nothing but complain and boycott
left sand
community asks for official support from valve for YEARS
they get it, albeit not perfect
they boycott it
do people not understand how important and significant it is to get official developer support for competitive play?
next nymph
the actual competitive community was never big enough to sustain valve comp. I don't think it's fair to pin it all on them when widespread community buyin was essential and neither did
left sand
they spread this message
actively
i lurked so much on forums
and found so many of these trends
of this myth being spread, originating from tftv users
and besides
they DID fix comp
and people still did not play it
because ultimately they said
next nymph
more of the playerbase pays attention to reddit than tftv, I remember my fair share of redditors complaining because it was competitive
next nymph
and getting downvoted if it didn't contribute to the consensus already on reddit
crisp cedar
it's all coming back to me...
left sand
all im saying is that there is a farcical complaint structure
where at first the boycotts were about one thing
and everything was addressed
and they still boycotted it because of dx8
so they had no real intention of ever participating
despite asking for it
so yeah
next nymph
I can agree, I just don't think it's something to pin on one subcommunity
next nymph
everyone had complaints and everyone was boycotting or disinterested for any which reason
crisp cedar
wow that was insane
misty plover
Honestly with how hard the comp community came up with excuses to not use the system you'd almost think there was some sort of monetary gain for them to do so-- oh wait
languid haven
no dx8
who the hell would wan to play tf2 with a graphics api that sonic adventure DX used?
languid haven
because he likes tthe game looking likedogshit and unwatchable
small sirenBOT
misty plover
CSGO players spent a decade using commands that did nothing to convince themselves it gave better ping/hitreg
summer steeple
performance, like the style (for some reason), gaslit into using it because tHe PrOs UsE iT
stuck locust
Saying it made him aim better
(although in fairness he had always used that resolution since he started off using a bad computer)
languid haven
performance, like the style (for some reason), gaslit into using it because tHe ...
proffesional gamers
unborn pecan
performance, like the style (for some reason), gaslit into using it because tHe ...
b4nny config
cursive peak
Wasn't it 1024x768 stretched?
misty plover
CSGO players spent a decade using commands that did nothing to convince themselv...
To put my words more simply: comp players will delude themselves into believing things that aren't true on the idea it makes them perform better. Regardless of game
languid haven
To put my words more simply: comp players will delude themselves into believing ...
like fucking rituals before doing a sport. wtf is wrong with people?
people do the stupidest shit
next nymph
To put my words more simply: comp players will delude themselves into believing ...
don't worry, that's just gamers in general
there's no shortage of placebos on gamebanana either
grim parcel
personally i play better with a cucumber slice between my pinky and ring(?) toe
cursive peak
No, no, you see its specific to competitive gamers because they are horrible people.
And it is the casuals who are truly enlightened.
grim parcel
Fucking low IQ trash.
cursive peak
And that's why your parents regret not aborting you.
grim parcel
i gotta bind that lmao
crisp cedar
can yall not
grim parcel
hey i was just agreeing with him using his own words
crisp cedar
steamworks gotta stop acting angry and yall gotta stop baiting him into saying something stupid
unborn pecan
y'all gotta chill out
crisp cedar
No, no, you see its specific to competitive gamers because they are horrible peo...
i feel like thats not true
cursive peak
Perhaps it just needs to grow a brain.
unborn pecan
maybe you need to step away from the computer and take a breather
grim parcel
steamworks gotta stop acting angry and yall gotta stop baiting him into saying s...
yall gotta stop baiting him into saying something stupid
being 100% honest here, i'm not even trying
crisp cedar
dota 2 is a heavily competitive based game yet its community is miles better than tf2s
cursive peak
Maybe you need to fuck off.
crisp cedar
> yall gotta stop baiting him into saying something stupid
being 100% honest her...
youll eventually pick up on his behavior
grim parcel
dota 2 is a heavily competitive based game yet its community is miles better tha...
low bar
crisp cedar
exactly
unborn pecan
ok steamworks, continue being angry
grim parcel
hurripoo
unborn pecan
hi pookie
misty plover
dota 2 is a heavily competitive based game yet its community is miles better tha...
Tbf they kind of have to be
grim parcel
you know what we need?
unborn pecan
dougie
grim parcel
yup
grim parcel
hurrican taught me how to dougie
misty plover
If you told someone you played Dota 2 competitively you'd have to explain wtf Dota even is
unborn pecan
getchoo is a dougie follower
crisp cedar
i really dont like steamworks getting mad at everything and i dont like people continuing to bait steamworks into saying dumb things after hes made an angry fool of himself
cursive peak
Not wanting to be used as a fucking meme isn't anger.
crisp cedar
not when you type like this
cursive peak
Gotta shut the shit down.
crisp cedar
grim parcel
Not wanting to be used as a fucking meme isn't anger.
dont call people low iq trash online, it's that easy
languid haven
Fucking low IQ trash.
i see what you meant
crisp cedar
you gotta take a chill pill, frog prescribed
grim parcel
and a dougie
cursive peak
You are pretty low IQ if you can't enjoy something without it having some bullshit kind of humor.
crisp cedar
a lot of the times when i see steamworks involved in a conversation its him getting angry at something and people continuing to bait him so he keeps embarassing himself
grim parcel
i've actually had subway surfer gameplay split screened with discord this whole time because of it
crisp cedar
and plenty of those times its someone trying to make a joke
misty plover
a lot of the times when i see steamworks involved in a conversation its him gett...
Honestly I've never met them before today
crisp cedar
not mean spirited or at the expense of anyone else
misty plover
I lost interest pretty quick though
crisp cedar
i really think if theres anyone with a bullshit kind of humor its you
crisp cedar
Honestly I've never met them before today
you need not involve yourself
im trying to appeal for him to change his behavior
crisp cedar
it happens so many times like clockwork
im not digging up more examples
you gotta take a chill pill, frog prescribed
you aggro way too fucking easily
misty plover
https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/275004607690702848/1212826647741341757/...
forg
crisp cedar
i dont like how you talk to people like that who have no mean spirit in mind
you respond like this even to simple jokes
formal dew
comp channel here that only regulars can get in with tight control
unborn pecan
sending in the dougie.mp4
small sirenBOT
crisp cedar
im done sending examples but
please change your behavior
this is something that happens so often that at this point im tired of it
misty plover
Off topic, anyone want the stupid airblast hitbox rendering vscript I wrote, I'm gonna clean up the code a bit and document it
crisp cedar
not off topic
misty plover
Well, its off topic to what we were discussing prior
languid haven
you respond like this even to simple jokes
removing the overlay doesn't solve tunnel vission
summer steeple
I'd just upload it somewhere, gamebanana, tf2maps (maybe), etc.
languid haven
scoping in forces only rendering of a 1:1 section of your game. the rest to the sides aren't rendered
even if the remove the overlay it doesn't change the tunnel vission, only slightly treats it.
stuck locust
I'd just upload it somewhere, gamebanana, tf2maps (maybe), etc.
yeah could upload it to a github repo or something
then share the link here
slender nexus
its crazy how despite being less accessible, tf2 pre-mym had a shitton of influe...
before like 2016 I would only go to a set a 5 skial US servers
limpid panther
I'm almost finished testing the beta on windows. So after I'm done with that, what are some things you guys have heard people swear improves/impairs performance that you think I should test?
doesn't need to be in-game, so stuff like fullscreen optimizations or doing shit to the OS, is ok
for now I have:
- Blurry/minimalist textures
- Simpler HUDs
- Fullscreen Optimisations
- Blocky Textures (texture filtering off)
- Particle Replacement
- Blocky lighting
- NoHats
- dxlevel 81
of course, the results will only be relevant for a rig similar to mine, but it is still good to finally have statistically significant numbers on this
tough locust
besides like FUNKe (who stopped making videos alltogether) and uncle dane
funke is cool but hes constantly depressed
tough locust
It's the same shitty crowd who act like removing random crits makes the game pai...
removing random crits doesn't make the game painful but it does make some random events less fun, I like having the 1.5% chance to roll a rocket that can end a soldier's 30 killstreak that would be impossible to end otherwise. feels cheap but it feels so good after getting a revenge kill with a random crit
cursive peak
Or you could just outplay said Soldier.
You know, use your brain.
Oh lawdy, he's typin' an essay about how using your brain during gaming is horrible.
tough locust
I'm not as skilled as a pocketed soldier, no matter how much I grind the game they'll just keep playing as often. my 12 years 3k hours doesn't even hold a candle to most guys that grind the game nonstop
tough locust
Oh lawdy, he's typin' an essay about how using your brain during gaming is horri...
why do you harbor such anger
cursive peak
Why do you suck at life so much?
tough locust
lmao
tough locust
for now I have:
- Blurry/minimalist textures
- Simpler HUDs
- Fullscreen Optimis...
interested in seeing if low quality textures do anything for a modern gpu, I'm firmly in the camp that it's only for clarity it seems like low textures don't make the game run faster at all if your gpu was made in the past decade
tough locust
I was extremely interested in official competitive but the third party comp scen...
was also hyped for it and played it a few times back in the beta stress tests. It was a pretty fun challenge and I didn't see the problem (since I had 0 comp experience) but the comp players basically gave up on it before mym even released since it wasn't up to par for actual comp. by the time meet your match came out there wasn't even anyone interested in it anymore
still think valve should've decided to make a whole new competitive format. 6v6 was doomed from the start, highlander would be awesome imo but they'd need an overwatch queue system which would make queueing take forever
crisp cedar
Why do you suck at life so much?
strong feelings about cvar
crisp cedar
i told him to stop embarassing himself but he does it again hours later 😭
why does he keep taking it personally
grim parcel
Why do you suck at life so much?
bro please go offline for a bit
crisp cedar
limpid panther
interested in seeing if low quality textures do anything for a modern gpu, I'm f...
me too
unborn pecan
funke is cool but hes constantly depressed
eh
i don't think he's depressed
it's just his style
dreamy marlin
for now I have:
- Blurry/minimalist textures
- Simpler HUDs
- Fullscreen Optimis...
In my limited testing I was suprised to see how much of a difference (mostly negative difference, like 5%+ worse fps) some custom HUDs made. Seeing more thorough testing would be cool
rare creek
for now I have:
- Blurry/minimalist textures
- Simpler HUDs
- Fullscreen Optimis...
480x480 by using -small (anything below 480x480 just crashes)
lighthud or xhud will probably be best for performance
summer steeple
In my limited testing I was suprised to see how much of a difference (mostly neg...
I believe its mostly based on the number of panels in a hud
I think some people have already done some testing?
zealous pond
You guys think the 64 bit version will launch in summer?
Nah gonna be vaporware.
jagged pawn
im sorry im not good i apologize for my ego please forgive me, im just european
pin this
jagged pawn
like you still hear "comp bans basically everything but stock" and you look at t...
this pisses me off so much bc the competitive community has done such a good job of actually listening to the complaints people have had about it over the years in the hopes of getting more people to check it out and the result has been people just repeating the same talking points from 2016 that don't apply anymore
jagged pawn
I want to be able to play Pyro full time in 6s
you are literally allowed to do this, you just have to have 5 friends which is very hard for a lot of people for some reason
jagged pawn
just dismissed it outright based upon it not supporting dx8
ok to be fair it was a lot more than this. like tf2 with no weapon bans and almost all 5cp is not fun. they needed to rework the problematic weapons FIRST and THEN add comp rather than the other way around
like yes there was a vocal group of insane idiots that were mad about dx8 but I think the reason most people didn't play in game comp is simply because it isn't as fun
and the whole "you have to play this to get what you actually want" argument that companies like to do never actually works
livid oracle
like you still hear "comp bans basically everything but stock" and you look at t...
huge news: entire casual community joins comp tf2 in droves after the long awaited addition of the sharpened volcano fragment to the whitelist
jagged pawn
lmfao
the only thing that I could understand complaining about is the fact that scout only gets two secondaries in rgl 6s (pistol/winger). that is pretty lame. but every other ban is so normal
and iirc they're running an experimental cup that removes even more bans
to test if it works
livid oracle
and iirc they're running an experimental cup that removes even more bans
entire casual userbase is gonna flow into 6s after this
gonna be so fucking huge
jagged pawn
oh wait nvm experimental cup was a month ago lmao, lemme see if I can find any results from it
livid oracle
all the Friendly Hoovies on 2fort will become full time 6s players after the natascha gets on the whitelist
just you wait
jagged pawn
so true, everyone loves using the natascha in pubs
in case you're curious the weapons that they tested were:
- Cow Mangler (imo this will probably be unbanned)
- Soda Popper (no shot)
- Bonk (could go either way)
- BASE Jumper (could go either way)
- Sydney Sleeper (no shot)
- Rescue Ranger (no shot)
- Diamondback (no shot)
livid oracle
in case you're curious the weapons that they tested were:
- Cow Mangler (imo thi...
lol there's no way theyre unbanning the sydney and rescue ranger
i think they might actually unban diamondback, possibly
jagged pawn
only if the logic is "spy is so ass that even having a blatantly overpowered weapon can't save him" which like maybe
left sand
ok to be fair it was a lot more than this. like tf2 with no weapon bans and almo...
who cares
who cares if its fun
its competitive officially supported by the developer
you eat that shit
people kept playing fortnite summer skirmish
despite it being completely unfair
and not ready at all
because they knew okay well
its early days
they can keep working on it if we keep playing
but if we boycott it then nothing will get done
jagged pawn
I truly cannot tell if you're serious. like this is a good bit if it's not serious
left sand
it is completely serious
jagged pawn
I'm not boycotting by not playing something I don't enjoy
left sand
players need to just suck it up and adapt
livid oracle
this isnt a good comparison because epic games is a multibillion dollar corp while valve is a struggling indie studio
left sand
people have fun by adapting to shitty conditions
its how almost every other game is successful
in fact, tf2 itself is extremely imperfect and people grew to learn how to work around it
and then after they got those comforts, they didnt want to learn any more
exactly why the pyro changes were received so poorly
because despite being one of the lowest effective ranged classes in the game with near 0 defensive/escape
jagged pawn
sega dropped a half-assed port of a shit monkey ball game on switch and explicitly said "if you guys don't buy this then we have no reason to make a new game". so the entire fanbase loudly responded "we're not buying that one because it's shit, but we will buy a good one" and the way they showed that is by mass buying an indie game heavily inspired by monkey ball
sega quickly realized that they were being braindead idiots that don't know how the world works, and now there are multiple great monkey ball games on modern systems
you cannot blame people for not playing shit content and then go "oh well it's your fault that we don't have anything good", I see this line of argument constantly and I truly do not understand how otherwise smart people fall into this extremely stupid line of thinking. like I've been seeing people furious at all the hate the avatar live action is getting because "if we hate on it too much they won't make a season 2!!" like bro do you think I want a season 2 if it's gonna be this bad?? I would literally rather the game die than be forced at gunpoint to play slop
left sand
no thats not what im saying lol
jagged pawn
what am I missing then
livid oracle
i think coms says that valve comp failed because the players didnt suck it up and just deal with it
which is true imo
i do understand why they didnt though
jagged pawn
I don't see how that's not what I addressed then
you cannot possibly blame the players for choosing not to play a bad version of the game when they could simply play a good version instead
left sand
theres a difference between not participating in a live service because its not perfect and not playing a bad game
jagged pawn
if valve wanted people to play their version, they should've made it good imo
livid oracle
it failed mainly i think because third party options were available
left sand
especially because the complaints were largely inane
jagged pawn
I do think the dx8 stuff was stupid lol, like if that's your reason for not playing it then you are weird
left sand
the complaints were:
- dx8 is not supported
- the queue times are not instant
- no class limits
- no weapon bans
tf2 was held to an impossibly high standard and the significance of a competitive matchmaking getting into the game at all was not appreciated
for example, CSGO matchmaking is usually 2 to 5 minutes
small sirenBOT
jagged pawn
yeah point 1 and 2 are both dumb
left sand
and theres not this multi-queue system people asked for in TF2
3 and 4 are dumb as well
its valve's game
jagged pawn
3 and 4, while bad solutions, are things that point to a very real problem
I don't think they should've done class limits or weapon bans, I think they should've balanced the game
left sand
how about you play with the broken weapons in the competitive game mode, if its so unfair then use the unfair stuff
jagged pawn
they have the power to do that as the developers
jagged pawn
do you find that fun
left sand
yes tahts the whole point of every fucking game
like every single fucking live service game is not going to be perfectly balanced
fucking fortnite added an infinity blade in the middle of a winter tournament
and it completely ruined the tournament
people still fucking played
because its competitive
jagged pawn
if the point of the game is just to win then I'm gonna go to a rock paper scissors tournament, let's take the extra steps out of it all
left sand
if you dont have a competitive spirit, then dont claim to want to play competitive
thats the whole reason why i dont like 6s
most people who support that gamemode, they dont have a competitive mindset
jagged pawn
what is your opinion on the no restriction 6s league that rgl ran for a couple seasons
or actually it was a cup
but stil
left sand
that was very interesting
jagged pawn
l
left sand
theres something people seem to forget
game balances are eventually self selecting
because basically those who have a preference and a high practice/skill for a certain metagame, will enjoy the game more
and thus will play more, participate more
become better
etc
and thus, they are both more comfortable and more interested in that metagame
but that metagame is NOT their right
even if its the metagame for years and the developer chooses to change it
jagged pawn
I think that it was interesting to watch one or two times, and I think it gave us good data. but I also think that if that was the format that people had to play then competitive tf2 would fully die off lol
as for balance being self-fulfilling I largely agree in most games but I also think that doesn't really apply in tf2. like if engineer was a sleeper top tier then people would've found that out in highlander rn and then implemented it in 6s
left sand
those with a competitive mindset will adapt to a new metagame
thats not what im saying
anyway i dont really have patience for this discussion, im out, ive had it too many times
jagged pawn
I don't think that has to be the case. just because the developer changes the game doesn't mean you have to follow them. not every smash player is playing ultimate, in fact most aren't
left sand
but tf2 needs to look at literally every other competitive esport
at how imperfect everything was
and really thats all you need to do
get some fucking perspective
the biggest esports in the world had much much worse situations
jagged pawn
I think you're looking at it from the perspective that comp tf2 players want to be the next fortnite, and I'd argue most don't. I think most comp tf2 players want to be the next melee
added comp in case that wasn't obvious lol
jagged pawn
what makes you say that
left sand
they want to be some egotistical niche subgroup which constantly bemoans how they are so small but does everything in their power to keep it that way
which completely tracks
because tf2 comp has hissed at every single effort to make it big
that didnt come directly from within the community bubble
jagged pawn
I just think you have a different perspective on what you get out of the game is all
left sand
no im being a realist
if you look at literally every big esport
they were shit, way, way, way more shit
than tf2
tf2 comp launching how it did, was basically diamond tier compared to what other people get
csgo, fortnite, dota, overwatch, all their comp launches were much worse
laughably worse
jagged pawn
for every fortnite and street fighter there's a game that had big promises from the developer of being the next big thing that IMMEDIATELY died and left all the players stranded with no community platform to fall back on. rocket league, for honor, r6s, overwatch. completely dead in the water because they were too dependent on a dev that doesn't actually care
I think it's totally understandable for people to fear that outcome
jagged pawn
oh boy 2 for 78
jagged pawn
I love underlords
left sand
anyway
im just going to go
this is just unbearable because this is the 500th time ive talked about this
nothing will ever change
jagged pawn
yeah you're of course not obligated to continue I just hope you get what I'm saying
jagged pawn
alright
you're not obligated to respond but I think there are 4 potential outcomes for a competitive game. in order of ideal:
- official support from developer lasts. leads to thriving community-dev relationship and a great way for new people to get involved. all the biggest games sit here (fortnite, cs, league, street fighter)
- community support of old, forgotten game. leads to second life and community-led future, but stunts growth due to roadblocks to entry (melee, minecraft, starcraft, tf2)
- official support from developer ends prematurely, or developer otherwise fails to help competitive scene grow. competitive game essentially dies due to lack of community infrastructure (overwatch, quake champions, underlords, apex)
- including for the sake of completion, but this should be obvious: game never gets popular to begin with (artifact, brawl stars, lawbreakers, take your pick really)
the argument here at its core is whether it's worth the risk to put the fate of the game in the hands of its developer. if the community keeps it to themselves, they're stuck on option 2 forever. if they trust the dev, they can either end up on 1 or 3. obviously you can think it's worth it, but I don't see how it's crazy that some people don't agree on that, especially given valve's frankly insulting track record
left sand
if you dont understand the difference between the developer offerring support and the community taking them up on it, and the developer oferring support and the community just blatantly ignoring it, then i dont know what to tell you
your list has forgone conclusions
that are compeltely irrelevant
to what we are fucking talking about
we are talking about the given that the developer is offerring some support
the argument is about taking them up on their offer or not
small sirenBOT
left sand
and if you think there is a single permanent downside to taking them up on their offer, in the case of tf2
then i think you are being ignorant
and thats all i have to say about that
jagged pawn
I don't see how the idea that valve could simply make one half-assed attempt at a competitive mode and then immediately give up on it, as they have done several times with several games, is irrelevant to the topic at all. it's exactly why people aren't willing to trust them and try out an imperfect attempt
jagged pawn
to be blunt I think the fact that your approach to my responses is to assume that they're irrelevant rather than simply ask why I believe them to be relevant is a big part of that but you clearly want to drop this so I'll stop
sorry if that comes off as an attempt at getting the last word in, that's genuinely not my intent, just think it was worth saying
tough locust
the only thing that I could understand complaining about is the fact that scout ...
the weapon bans are my least favorite part about comp, if the entire game falls apart when you introduce certain classes and half of the weapons then it isn't really TF2, it's more like a custom gamemode. Highlander is TF2 imo but it seems like its less popular
jagged pawn
what weapon ban is stopping you from playing
comp 6s doesn't "fall apart" when you offclass you just make your team lose generally lol
like you're allowed to play any class you want it just usually doesn't go well
livid oracle
the weapon bans are my least favorite part about comp, if the entire game falls ...
it is a custom gamemode
tough locust
that's what I mean though, team comp of scout scout soldier soldier demo medic isnt full TF2, if you like playing any of the 5 other classes then you're just bringing down the entire team
livid oracle
highlander is also as much of a custom gamemode as 6s is
"highlander is more tf2 than 6s" is a very surface level and pretty strange observation
tough locust
all 9 classes
livid oracle
theyre both contrived custom gamemodes by the community
livid oracle
all 9 classes
as i said, surface level
hl doesnt play like normal tf2 at all
it's a custom gamemode made in response to 6s for people who want to play like pyro and engineer full time
nothing wrong with that
but it is just as contrived as 6s is, if not more
jagged pawn
yeah hl plays nothing like casual lol people just assume it does because more classes = more tf2
livid oracle
6s developed far more naturally
it developed since 2007 basically
hl was relatively recent (heavy stress on relatively)
jagged pawn
this isn't exactly an original thought but I honestly think the actual issue with 6s is just the map pool. like the fact that people simply play the best classes for 5cp in a mode that just plays 5cp isn't shocking. engineer would be much more relevant if upward was in the map pool, as an obvious example
livid oracle
6s players play 5cp not because it's The More Competitive Gamemode
it's because they like it more than the other gamemodes
same reason for hl and payload
jagged pawn
I understand that it got settled on over years and years because it ended up being the most fun yeah
but I also think that some variety would be a net positive for the format in spite of that
livid oracle
"highlander is more tf2 than 6s" is a very surface level and pretty strange obse...
it's basically just an ideological statement
it utterly ignores any history
or even reality
tf2 means very different things to different people
jagged pawn
that's what I mean though, team comp of scout scout soldier soldier demo medic i...
anyway this makes no sense to me. there is no rule that you have to use this team comp. the only rules of 6s are that you can't run more than 2 of the same class (1 for demo/medic), there are like 15 weapons you can't use, the teams have 6 players, and you play on the maps in the pool. everything else just naturally develops from the best strategies within that system. by comparison highlander is extremely restrictive and forces you to play it exactly as demanded by the rules
livid oracle
you can't just say that one gamemode is "more tf2" than another
jagged pawn
prophunt is the most tf2 actually
tough locust
but it is just as contrived as 6s is, if not more
most of the stopwatch rules and stuff are pretty regular and highlander has less weapon bans than 6s, 6s is arbitrary because it's old and has to try to stay similar in a game that constantly changed for 10 years after 6s became standard
livid oracle
highlander is definitely a more restrictive gamemode
again though
nothing wrong wih that
it's just different
livid oracle
most of the stopwatch rules and stuff are pretty regular and highlander has less...
highlander is also arbitrary lol
idk what this argumwnt even is
"it is because it is"
not good
tough locust
you can't just say that one gamemode is "more tf2" than another
if I was an outside observer that never saw TF2 before highlander looks more like the standard game, put on 6s and the inexperienced don't know the ruleset
livid oracle
so youre admitting that the observation is surface level
jagged pawn
this just sounds like you like highlander more. which is fine but that absolutely does not mean it's less restrictive lol, you can like restrictions you are allowed to like that
put on 6s and the inexperienced don't know the ruleset
how
small sirenBOT
livid oracle
im not arguing one is better than the other btw
jagged pawn
^ same
livid oracle
just that it's silly to say that highlander is less restrictive or less arbitrary than 6s
jagged pawn
6s is just definitionally more open-ended in what you are allowed to do lol
livid oracle
when it's the other way around if you actually think about it
tough locust
the point im tying it back to is what sells comp to more players
jagged pawn
that's an entirely different point
livid oracle
6s is a far more popular mode than hl
tough locust
> put on 6s and the inexperienced don't know the ruleset
how
should've said don't know the meta
jagged pawn
yeah now I'm just lost on what you're arguing
livid oracle
6s is a far more popular mode than hl
literally not even close
tough locust
idek what I'm arguing
jagged pawn
handy dandy notes I keep of teams by format/league
livid oracle
prolander is gonna take off
livid oracle
prolander is so funny because it's supposed to be the best of both worlds but in practice it's the worst of both worlds
jagged pawn
man 😭 I wouldn't say worst but it definitely is not what it was trying to be
zealous pond
so true, everyone loves using the natascha in pubs
They should.
jagged pawn
reported
zealous pond
Natascha meta minigun S tier.
jagged pawn
midtascha
tough locust
I don't get the point of prolander ur allowed to switch classes but there's still the 1 class limit
jagged pawn
you just explained the point of prolander
tough locust
it's like highlander if 2 people couldn't make it into the game
small sirenBOT
livid oracle
who knows what goes on in the genius mind of the renowned game designer sigafoo
(i think he's a good guy i dont hate him to be clear lmao)
jagged pawn
it's like highlander if 2 people couldn't make it into the game
the logic is this
- a downside of 6s is that people feel like they're weighing their team down by offclassing
- a downside of highlander is that you HAVE to have someone for each class, which removes the dynamic of offclassing and forces some frankly boring classes (like full-time spy)
prolander was trying to fix these issues by creating a one-size-fits-all solution that didn't really work
I do think those are problems worth fixing but prolander wasn't the answer
livid oracle
i think you cant fix those issues because tf2 is a bad game and should be delisted from steam
jagged pawn
TRUEEE
jokes aside I think those are issues that are unfixable by the community unless they're like. somehow able to agree on a balance mod, which would never happen
tough locust
hmm seems like there isn't much of a solution: if u make the game 7v7 or 8v8 with no class limits it just becomes 6v6+1 and 6v6+2, if u add class limits it just becomes highlander-1 or highlander-2
jagged pawn
yeah
to be clear 6v6 does also have class limits they're just not 1 each for all classes
like you're not allowed to run double medic because it's boring as hell as seen in valve comp
(worth noting that I actually don't find it boring and wish it was allowed I'm just saying what the reasoning is)
livid oracle
i think 2 meds is just busted imo
and requires 2 meds per team
the number of teams are bottlenecked by the number of medic players lmao
tough locust
3v3 but it's sniper and spy only and nothing happens and also it's on mannpower
livid oracle
so youre just halving the total teams if you let ppl have 2 meds
jagged pawn
lol true
worth noting that it's less mandatory than you might think, at least for now. when rgl did nr6s about half of the teams ran 1 med and the other half ran 2, and both compositions did pretty much equally well (which tbf could just be bc that's what people are used to)
meta for 2 med was one med runs stock and is the "main med", other med runs vacc and is a flex heal like in overwatch lol
misty plover
i think they might actually unban diamondback, possibly
Honestly I wouldn't see many problems with it, spy is a very very weak class, especially in competitive. The diamondback isn't particularly strong all things considered either: massive spread recovery time, 102 damage crit isn't that strong even at long range (sniper exists and is better), and you need to actually... get kills and live which is very hard when people have microphones. Plus again sniper exists and is infinitely more effective as a pick class.
Also frontier justice is unbanned which is objectively infinitely more broken lol
jagged pawn
yeah idk I think the best argument I've heard in favor of it is that you're never gonna actually get much use out of it since to get a crit you have to get a kill which is rare enough as it is lol
misty plover
But again
Why take the risk to get a kill to maybe get another
When I can snipe
And kill three people in the same time
jagged pawn
I'm just still worried about the idea of a spy getting to two shot your medic after getting a kill on a stray scout or something
jagged pawn
When I can snipe
because competent teams can delete a sniper pretty quick, or just avoid the sightline he's watching until necessary
misty plover
because competent teams can delete a sniper pretty quick, or just avoid the sigh...
If your sniper is dying, they're the incompetent one tbh
crisp cedar
mucho texto
misty plover
The avoiding sightline argument is valid though
jagged pawn
not necessarily kill him but just force him into a position where he's not very useful
jagged pawn
mucho texto
if was mostly just mcoms and me arguing over comp tf2 philosophy and getting nowhere with each other lol, probably not worth reading through
misty plover
I mean, the only way to consistently pressure a sniper to where they're not able to be useful is to be an active aggressor in their face
Which means you're sacrificing at least one player to deal with them, whether that's via another sniper or by having your scout mark them constantly
jagged pawn
I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing depending on context. better to have a 5v5 because your scout is harassing the sniper than have no med because the sniper got to do his job
crisp cedar
if was mostly just mcoms and me arguing over comp tf2 philosophy and getting now...
i skimmed it, i got the tldr
misty plover
True, though I think it also depends on how skilled the sniper is whether one scout is enough
I haven't met any comp snipers at that level ofc
But it's not an impossibility
jagged pawn
oh for sure
I'm just saying that spy has a reason to exist, obv sniper fills a lot of his niche but not all of it
and in a world where spy serves a purpose I'm scared of him having the potential to get a free med pick bc of a scout being in a bad position once lol
but that's what experimental cups are for ig
misty plover
Tbf I think part of that is also comp players have a... not sure how to describe this
Over attachment to medic, where their hyper aggressive plays cannot work without healing to fall back on
Which makes a team incapable of functioning if their dies, so spy getting a pick off a bigger concern than what I would feel
Or rather, the entire idea of consistent free heals makes you used to playing on a strategy where riskier plays are all you're used to since "the med will save me", they're not really survivability aware in their play style
kind falcon
how do i play tf2 if i can get instazoomed and hs'ed
they should give sniper parkinsons
misty plover
I do not want to get into the sniper balance discussion because it is a lose lose
Everyone leaves unhappy
jagged pawn
sniper is mid tier
jagged pawn
Tbf I think part of that is also comp players have a... not sure how to describe...
I mean I would argue that without a medic you wouldn't be able to make most plays so that's kinda built into the game. comp mindset does exacerbate it tho
misty plover
I mean I would argue that without a medic you wouldn't be able to make most play...
Mmmmm maybe, I think it's not impossible but it requires playing in ways most TF2 players aren't capable of
Well, if we also exclude the existence of engineer that is, without medic you can't really do much about the texans on some maps
Idk game mechanics are wack