Team Fortress 2 Megathread - winter is the most chill time of year

[drowsy marlin]

Too confusing for new players.

[kind falcon]

works just fine on my steam deck

sorry buddy

[drowsy marlin]

But Playstation controllers...

[kind falcon]

who?

[drowsy marlin]

Playstation

[limpid panther]

actually, air strafing is OP on the controller

you don't even have to strafe

[drowsy marlin]

That's only if you have an aim assist

[livid oracle]

actually wouldnt airstrafing be more intuitive with a controller

like it's just holding two sticks in the same direction

[drowsy marlin]

That's too confusing

[livid oracle]

you won't even have to pass the extreme skill check that is not holding w

[next nymph]

you haven't seem me helicopter strafe while staring at you the entire time because of controller movement

[drowsy marlin]

I don't understand what you're saying

[next nymph]

of course you don't, your puny keyboard brain cannot comprehend the vast world of omnidirectional movement and its incredible contributions to airstrafe theory

[drowsy marlin]

you're*

[kind falcon]

yuo're

[next nymph]

you don't even need to change your view angle to do it, you can just move your directional movement in the exact angle to airstrafe well

[limpid panther]

yea, I just wanted a hook to link to this amazing video again: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3zT3Z5apaM

no, sorry. Im laying down on the sofa on a extremely comfortable position rn

the last thing I want is to move from here before I cramp up

[limpid panther]

I finnaly cramped up

@kind falcon let's lose at csgo 2

[ripe silo]

bruh
https://github.com/ValveSoftware/Source-1-Games/issues/5300

back at it again

how tf am I supposed to get any of that lol

I tried condebug

nope

nothing

no crash dump either

is there an effective way to debug that kind of crash or nah?

[ripe silo]

oh wait I'm a big dumb dumb, I used the 64bit malloc

hope kisak isn't too mad at me lol

[summer willow]

tf2 64 bits when?

[potent wolf]

afaik there has been no confirmation of it being a thing

so i wouldn't expect a 64bit build of tf2 anytime soon, if ever

[grim parcel]

just compile team comtress with -m64

[summer willow]

yeah, just funny like dxvk when

i saw joshua saying that the libtcmalloc problem is related to the runtime, i guess it needs to change tf2 to use the runtime or something with the runtime

[potent wolf]

where?

[summer willow]

so, i was looking for build tf2 to mess with it but idk how

[potent wolf]

anyways the tcmalloc problem is because linux sucks

[grim parcel]

is libtcmalloc even in the default runtime?

actually

i think it might be, same as sdl2, but not pinned for whatever reason

[potent wolf]

tcmalloc is shipped with tf2, not in the steam runtime

it's not in my steam files at least

[grim parcel]

huh, i thought more games used it

[summer willow]

wait

[grim parcel]

but yeah tbh i dont know how valve is going to fix the issues with it

i don't think they even can

[potent wolf]

either get rid of it on linux, or update the version they use

[grim parcel]

unless they just include versions of it or get rid of it

[potent wolf]

from my understanding the problem is that C++ aligned allocation functions aren't in the version of tcmalloc that they ship, which means it ends up using two different allocators

[grim parcel]

i thought it was just because flatpak and arch build mesa against llvm 16 now for whatever reason

[potent wolf]

that shouldn't change any abi though?

[summer willow]

https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/mesa/mesa/-/issues/8847#note_1870264

[potent wolf]

huh

[grim parcel]

i just remember hearing something about that when it first came out, so my fix was to build tcmalloc against llvm 16 like the system libraries

but i don't have an amd card so i was never able to experiment and see if just any updated tcmalloc worked

[potent wolf]

here we go: https://airlied.blogspot.com/2023/04/fedora-38-llvm-vs-team-fortress-2-tf2.html

[grim parcel]

oh so just tcmalloc but with c++17

[potent wolf]

tcmalloc but it implements the new apis

[summer willow]

but this also happens with nvidia? didnt understand very well but seeing now im feel bad for ranting about because feels like is more difficult than i thought but also idk

[potent wolf]

it happens on nvidia too?

[summer willow]

yes

[potent wolf]

hmm, are you sure it's the same issue?

[summer willow]

so... im not crazy but i verify the files to try again and it works, i had the error and installed the gperftools-libs.i686 and ln to the pinned folder, but looking for it just isnt there but also before this i deleted the bundled malloc? maybe im going crazy

i would notice if i was using another driver

well, cool

even the sdl that i linked just got replaced

[potent wolf]

so...

did they?

[summer steeple]

i don't know

nope, looks like its only used for zatoichi insta-kills

[potent wolf]

The katana is a weapon of honor!!!!

[summer willow]

i cant join, funny

[summer steeple]

genuinely kinda proud of myself

found an issue and managed to figure out why it was happening and how to fix it/workaround it in only a few hours

the issue: the generic_actor hitbox I use for my entity in vscript so that I can get the hitlocation of bullets uses the default source NPC behavior of insta-dying to sneak attack headshots

getting it to actually regard the enemy as a player it had seen so that it wouldn't count as a sneak attack is actually really simple, but figuring it out took a bit

partially because the fucking VDC docs didn't specify that the UpdateEnemyMemory input actually lets you send a name through to add...

but in the end, its a literal 1 line fix

plus an extra damage halving calculation because there's also a console command which sets the headshot multiplier on npcs to 2x (there's actually a cvar for multiple body parts, but only head is diferent)

its funny, I had a really hack-y solution where I changed the targetname of the player so that I could send that through, but then looked a little bit deeper at the name checking code and saw that it had a builtin exception for "!player" that returned yes if the entity was a player

[radiant merlin]

someone has to make a tug of war gamemode for casual

(no 5cp )

[cursive peak]

I don't think there's a single good tug of war map yet.

There's one with a Japanese sort of them that's just kind of meh, and its probably the best one out there so far.

[radiant merlin]

mmm

king of the flag?

[jagged pawn]

I don't really get why people want tug of war tbh

it's going to suffer from the same problems as 5cp but be even more severe

like unless the map is koth sized it will literally never end if the teams are balanced

[cursive peak]

Throwback to UGC HL S9 when they ran pl_waste for the preseason map.

Is king of the flag where you take the flag to the center of the map? That exists, too.

No idea what you'd call it, but ctf_haarp had one team taking the intel into the other team's base to capture the point.

ctf_vitalism has the intel capture point in the middle of the map.

[summer steeple]

i don't remember doing this, but i'm going ot leave it

[summer steeple]

iirc KotF is KotH where the team who owns the "point" is whoever is holding the flag's team

[jagged pawn]

that sounds like whoever gets it first wins

unless you design the map like arena I guess

[summer steeple]

iirc if you leave the middle area you drop the flag

[spare obsidian]

hey @summer steeple have you tried to recreate a HL2 npc using vscript and nextbot? lol

[summer steeple]

no

but also like

i think they're still sort of semi-functional in tf2 anyway

[spare obsidian]

they're if you use server plugins has far i can remeber

i was thinking of making a coop gamemode in vscript just for fun lol

[summer steeple]

oh huh

[summer willow]

so... using the sdl2 from my system and without forcing x11 gives the error

maybe just nvidia things with wayland

yeah

i didnt get this before but, replacing the libtcmalloc and without forcing x11 it launches with llvmpipe

but just fails

oh, i just needed egl-wayland 32bit, still doesnt work but good to know

[summer willow]

the doesnt works is just everything is launched but theres no windows or whatever this is, searching is just something nvidia wayland and opengl, ig if it was vulkan would work

[radiant merlin]

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3069621645

oh this weapon has a red laser... RED???? WE CAN'T HAVE RED IN OUR TEAM!

[small siren]

*oh this weapons has

a red laser... RED???? WE CAN'T

HAVE RED ON OUR TEAM!*

- ashewiki_tf

[summer willow]

if huds used html + css instead of whatever this is the game would be alive

im editing monohud because is cool but theres some problems but

[summer steeple]

panorama is cool and vgui sucks but i think i would die if i had to learn css for hud editing

[summer willow]

i can just change xpos to the end but i want something like
expand this red box to the end of HudHealthBG then i could just use the textalignment i believe to change

[summer willow]

idk how is panorama but css is not that scary, and is universal and you can do pretty much anything

[summer willow]

trying to learn doing but i just cant understand how things work, i tried wide but doesnt changes anything?

also i tried jofrehud just to see 1 thing and wtf is this hud

[summer steeple]

panorama is css + html + js

i've tried to learn css several times and it always just hurts my brain

[high current]

What element is that? Odds are it’s either a child element of something in that file or in hudlayout.res, so you can’t change the wide because it’s getting cut off by the parent element.

[summer willow]

oh, thats cool

[high current]

That or it has auto_wide or whatever so the width is getting overridden

[summer steeple]

oh sorry, its actually xml, css, and js

xml for layout, css for appearence, js for communication with the game or other scripting

[summer willow]

tf2 source 2 uses panorama?

[summer steeple]

yes because source 2 uses panorama

vgui was completely removed

[summer willow]

interesting

[summer willow]

PlayerStatusMaxHealthValue

oh yeah, i guess it was "auto_wide_tocontents"

[craggy ridge]

https://vxtwitter.com/Zesty_Jesus/status/1719775609432240348

"Oh man TF2 is getting major updates with new gamemodes this is so coo-"

Miserable motherfuckers on Twitter:

[spare obsidian]

can we community note this man?

[drowsy marlin]

Official TF2 prophunt would be really fun though

[craggy ridge]

got cancelled because he liked cannibalism and eventually moved to the TF2 community

[hoary geyser]

what

[craggy ridge]

dw i made that up

[next nymph]

dw he's just a regular serial killer

[jagged pawn]

that being said I do not want vscript prophunt to be added. imagine booting up tf2 as a new player and your very first match is prophunt by accident lol

[next nymph]

that wouod be swag

[formal dew]

alt game modes being hidden by default has been a disaster for the human race

[jagged pawn]

the problem is they're hiding the wrong modes

[formal dew]

it should be silently enabled after you reach casual level 10

[jagged pawn]

hydro should be default and capture the flag should not, simple as

[jagged pawn]

wait this is based

[high current]

Doesn’t casual level 10 happen in like 2 games?

[formal dew]

idk

[jagged pawn]

that's fine

[high current]

Also alternative game modes kinda are functionally hidden. How many people scroll down in the map list? And even if you do enable all maps, odds are you’re going to badwater or upward.

[formal dew]

there's a clear problem where casual people aren't playing alt game modes enough because they dont realize theyre available

also fuck me the halloween casual category is enormous now

shits gonna be insane in 2024

[high current]

Yeh it’s a problem. They should remove the maps from Halloween after the event, but keep like the top rated map of each game mode.

[formal dew]

It's a real problem because I dont like how csgo does it

[high current]

It’s at the point where I don’t even bother with the new maps. I just play the old valve ones like it’s 2013

[formal dew]

but the way tf2 does it cant be kept up indefinitely without getting absurd

[high current]

It’s been absurd for at least the past 2 years honestly. Frankly I can’t think of many community Halloween maps that weren’t just bad. Some are a goofy fun for a bit but then fall apart after the novelty

[formal dew]

I can't think of a way to do workshop maps that adequately compensates mappers in the long run and also facilitates long term content cycles without getting absurd

[high current]

The player destruction ones tend to be interesting though

[jagged pawn]

I don't think it's unreasonable to temporarily put them into the gamemode categories and just have a checkmark at the top to enable all halloween maps. but I have no idea how feasible that is to code bc I've heard casual is a bit of a mess to work with

[craggy ridge]

good thing literally all of the misc gamemodes are off by default!

[jagged pawn]

if I open tf2 and I see NEW UPDATE: CLICK THIS BUTTON TO ENABLE THE NEW STUFF I'm going to click the button

[craggy ridge]

good so next time you play it put the new things off

[potent wolf]

i forgot how bad first install tf2 is

great user experience

[jagged pawn]

it's so bad lmao

[craggy ridge]

sorry but community gamemodes WILL get proper valve support

this is the way of the regime

[potent wolf]

and then after events they go to the garbage bin (alternative gamemodes)

and nobody plays them

[craggy ridge]

the only real dead gamemode that I can think off is pass time

the rest are still populated

even if queue times are long

[summer steeple]

I mean its not impossible to get into a passtime game either

[formal dew]

rest in peace pass time

intellectual property and its consequences have been a disaster for the human race

[spare obsidian]

everyday deplatforming z esty is the only option

[jagged pawn]

the crazy thing is that pass time is also not even fun

like of all the modes to die (with multiple maps) it's probably the one I'd pick

[summer steeple]

skill issue

its a lot of fun for me

[jagged pawn]

they should remove engineer

it expects far too much coordination from a casual lobby, I could see it being fun if you have a full squad to queue but otherwise there's no shot

[stuck locust]

not really

if you're the only one going after the engineers then it can be a pain

but as long as you play around your teammates and do something like dh soldier then it's not bad

[next nymph]

if someone remade passtime into vscript could valve finally update it then

[cursive peak]

Wouldn't that still be on the map maker to update it?

[glass musk]

I tried the slaughter prophunt map

[summer willow]

never heard about passtime

[glass musk]

its ok I guess

[next nymph]

it's pretty good to pass the time

[glass musk]

but I hope they will let you disguise as smaller things

like a soda can

might be too much effort though

[summer willow]

one day i enter some server

[spare obsidian]

passtime ain't real

wake up

[craggy ridge]

In brazil it is

[potent wolf]

that is true. however, there is a gamemode in teamed fortress 2 named "PASS Time", which may be confused with "passtime", which does not exist

[craggy ridge]

Ita called fuTFbol in here which is really cool

[stuck locust]

i don't think it's dead just yet

in casual it prob is mostly dead

[potent wolf]

i take it back: https://passtimegps.com/

[stuck locust]

but there's some passtime communities around

[potent wolf]

passtime is real

[next nymph]

thats PassTime, different thing

[potent wolf]

oh okay

[craggy ridge]

tbh pass time is literally the worst gamemode in the entire game by far

it's completely unsavable without a massive rework

[stuck locust]

idk i like passtime

at least 4v4 passtime is pretty fun imo

[summer willow]

actually, i already saw playing on some tf2 live

[small siren]

*actually, i

already saw playing on

some tf2 live*

- _jakez

[craggy ridge]

all that I said stands

there are only 2 playable classes in 4v4 passtime

and all the maps are completely different from the official ones

[small siren]

*and all the maps are

completely different from

the official ones*

- puddin555

[craggy ridge]

(no one plays demo cuz he sucks)

[summer steeple]

erm, ctf exists

[craggy ridge]

it's by far worse than ctf

[stuck locust]

idk i saw a few demo players

was pretty effective actually

when done right at least

[summer steeple]

tbh most of the problems with ctf are map design based

[craggy ridge]

if 3 classes are playable then that doesn't make it any better lol

[small siren]

*tbh most of

the problems with ctf

are map design based*

- treacherousfiend

[livid oracle]

remove all hitscan

[summer steeple]

but also like

[livid oracle]

there's a super niche comp passtime that does exactly that

[summer steeple]

what don't you like about passtime

what about it makes it worse than ctf for you

because its basically just ctf but with the flag at the middle and with extra steps

[livid oracle]

the actual worst thing about pass time is the free hats that look ugly as fucking hell

[craggy ridge]

it's an even sluggish form of ctf where there's an equal amount of camping but you have do to an ungodly amount of cooperation with your team to have fun

[livid oracle]

i wish f2ps wore gibuses again instead of those fucking hats

[stuck locust]

i mean that's the point of it being 4v4, isn't it?

it would be coordination-based

[summer steeple]

i'm asking about just passtime

not 4v4 passtime

[stuck locust]

ah gotcha

[craggy ridge]

yeah thats what is wrong with pass time

4v4 pass time is completely fine

because it had a massive rework to not have the most boring gameplay ever

[summer steeple]

idk about co-operation, I've never felt like I was losing because we weren't cooperative

if someone really wants the ball, they'll probably use the voice command anyway, its bound to middle mouse (altho it might kick you from the game )

otherwise, if you don't want it, just toss it to a teammate or away from enemies lol

[livid oracle]

what if the other team puts a bunch of sentries down

[formal dew]

rip escalation studios

[summer steeple]

shoot em

[formal dew]

to be fair all of the pass time maps are big enough for dh soldiers to wreck sentries

[summer steeple]

its kinda hard to have nests at least in the official maps because they're so open

open skies and high ground mean ez destruction for soldiers and demos

[small siren]

*open skies and high

ground mean ez destruction for

soldiers and demos*

- treacherousfiend

[formal dew]

sentries are simply the linebackers

[jagged pawn]

disagree, they could very easily fix the problem of "once the flag gets grabbed and dropped once your entire team has to surround it forever"

I do think ctf is the worst "core mode" but I've always found that to be a weird category

[summer steeple]

i mean tbh i haven't played a lot of ctf because the maps suck so bad

they're all just a nightmare to play

[jagged pawn]

the summer 2023 one was fun

pelican peak I think?

[summer steeple]

yeah that ones is the only one i enjoyed

comparatively, I think ctf needs MORE cooperation because of how tight those old ctf maps are

[jagged pawn]

ctf exists in this weird limbo of both being considered a core mode and being largely abandoned

like by far the smallest of the core modes and it's not close

[summer steeple]

i think a lot of mappers don't want to make ctf maps because it has that reputation of sucking

mostly because of 2fort

[jagged pawn]

fair

[summer steeple]

its got a stigma

[livid oracle]

ctf was better when tf was more movement-based

[summer steeple]

some mappers do ctf, but I think its just as common to do ctf maps as it is to do alternative ctf-like gamemodes

[cursive peak]

Turbine Pro and Doublecross stand out as the two better CTF maps.

[summer steeple]

reverse ctf, invade ctf, etc.

[jagged pawn]

is it a hot take to say that the easiest way to save ctf and plr is to just add pd versions of 2fort and hightower

that way the people who just want to fuck around can go there

[livid oracle]

idk how to explain it but tf2 is more "territory-based", it's a lot more about taking and holding ground

[summer steeple]

no i get what you mean

[cursive peak]

Vitalism is onto something. I think it's a conceptually better CTF take even if the execution is lacking.

Take the intel to the middle of the map, intel returns quickly, can't cap the intel if the enemy team has yours.

[livid oracle]

in the pre-tf2 2fort the capture point was basically in the middle of the map

[craggy ridge]

no vigil = bad update

this is my metric for bad update

[livid oracle]

kinda wonder why they moved away from that

[summer steeple]

what happens to updates after they add vigil

[cursive peak]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0vZiRhtIDY

[craggy ridge]

my metrics will change after that don't worry

don't stress yourself too much let me do all the thinking you can keep sitting on the corner

like an alligator

[livid oracle]

reverse ctf is enemy flag starts at your base and the capture point is at their base right?

idk really about that since that doesnt really seem like ctf, that seems more like 2cp

[summer steeple]

yeah

[livid oracle]

imo capture point at the middle is the best way to do ctf capture point

[summer steeple]

and invade is the flag starts at the center and you take it to the enemy's base

[livid oracle]

idk about quake tf but in tfc the capture point was right here for 2fort

practically in the middle of the map

[craggy ridge]

i think someone (kingo?) tried it out and it was better than og ctf by a mile

its crasher if it didnt have a not so thought out gimmick that completely butchered the map design

[livid oracle]

my issue with ctf really is like

[cursive peak]

Throwback to that time I got my team in the lead in the last seconds of a ctf_haunt match (it's Halloween Vitalism). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0vZiRhtIDY

Also a bit of a language warning.

[summer steeple]

its a halloween map

[livid oracle]

why wouldn't you just put sentries around the capture point or intel

[craggy ridge]

and

[cursive peak]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LkC3_0n6_LI

[jagged pawn]

I love pass time

[summer steeple]

did you expect it to not have a gimmick

[craggy ridge]

a well thought out one would be very welcome

there are only 2 good classes to be giants

heavy and arguably demo

[summer steeple]

bruh

soldier and pyro are pretty damn good tbh

[livid oracle]

i think the gimmick is fine but the level design is definitely kinda lame

[craggy ridge]

both get demolished by heavy still

heavy straight up just kinda destroy any other class

[summer steeple]

shoot him

[livid oracle]

there's like no alternate paths or anything

[craggy ridge]

he has the biggest dps in the entire game

[livid oracle]

sniper sees the entire map

[summer steeple]

don't get hit

there's walls everywhere

[craggy ridge]

kind of hard to do the objective if you can't cross the line of sight of the opposing giant

the map is so big that you can barely hide as a giant anyways

[summer steeple]

thats kind of the point???

[craggy ridge]

so heavy stays practically the only viable one

[summer steeple]

how is it that you can't hide as giant and yet giant heavy is a problem

thats kind of contradictary

[craggy ridge]

it is not

he has an enormous health pool

[summer steeple]

they... all do

[craggy ridge]

.

other classes cant compete

[summer steeple]

idk what to tell you aside from the fact that there are walls everywhere

[craggy ridge]

the map is so goodamn big and open and the giants are so goddamn slow that you dont have the luxury of cornerpicking as soldier

[fleet kite]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iykEhK3uRSU neat analysis

[kind falcon]

eruption. good

[jagged pawn]

valve stop adding the halloween versions of the best workshop maps challenge

eruption, undergrove, bagel, maple ridge, etc etc

[kind falcon]

maple ridge is silly. i stand on a door frame and stab everyone.

helltrain is a good map

what is this shit.

god i love team fortress.

colorful

[mystic turtle]

no shot

[drowsy marlin]

someone ban this

[kind falcon]

why isnt he moving

[stone nebula]

he is a png 💔

[kind falcon]

lies

he a jpg

bros compressed 💔

[next nymph]

https://tenor.com/view/suki-suki-the-lizard-suki-the-gecko-pink-lizard-gecko-licking-gif-11400079145059320342

[summer willow]

the second was fixed?

[high current]

I don’t think it was broken, unless this is a specific servers patch notes? But vgui_drawtree is cheat restricted. +vgui_drawtree is not.
Granted idk why it would be restricted. Are people really like “oh no, someone can find out what hud element something is. Ban them!”

[visual egret]

does anyone know what exactly it is about tf2 that makes it feel less smooth compared to other games like overwatch even on high fps?

[mystic turtle]

maybe screen tearing (or at least subtly mistimed frames)?
that's what would go on for me
This might sound stupid, but turn on vsync

or, much better: use an external framerate limiter like RTSS or libstrangle

then again, this is kinda spitballing.

[kind falcon]

stop with the linux neckbearing

[mystic turtle]

just mentioning it in case

you find linux users in the most random of places

besides, I could never get libstrangle to work; RTSS wins out otherwise

[kind falcon]

kill linux users

[mystic turtle]

commit doofus genocide

[kind falcon]

yes kill people

please ping me when you reply to me

[mystic turtle]

sure

[high current]

It feels fine to me. Are you playing in full screen? Is your fps above 1000? Is your cpu/gpu maxing out and adding input delay (part of the reason why fps caps are good).
Could be basically any reason, kinda hard to just blindly diagnose it.

[dreamy marlin]

I had issues with libstrangle too, but identical functionality is built into mangohud if you can get the 32-bit version of that working

[dreamy marlin]

TF2's in-game v-sync and in-game FPS cap both suck. If you're using either of those, that could explain it. Better to turn them off in-game and force them with external tools like your GPU's control panel, RTSS, or Mangohud

In most cases, it is better to use the in-game versions of FPS caps and vsync, since they'll have lower input lag compared to external tools, but there are a few exceptions; most source games being one of those exceptions. It will technically increase input lag by a frame or two, but it's probably worth it for smoothness

[visual egret]

I'm on 144hz with blur reduction on 200-300 fps in tf2 no frame cap

running overwatch on same res with 300-400 fps and it just feels way way smoother

tf2 does feel a little smoother on 133 tick servers, but the movement just feels kind of choppy compared to OW

ill try vsync next time i launch

[limpid panther]

@visual egret maybe you are conflating smoothness with responsiveness

one has to do with how many frames are being rendered, the other has to do with how quick the feedback from your inputs gets shown

[kind falcon]

ok disable blur reduction . win

[limpid panther]

my first option trying to improve responsiveness is to remove any kind of frame synchronization and post processing (like msaa, motion blur, and the like)

[kind falcon]

huge fps variability team fort 2

[limpid panther]

if you wanna be absolutely certain that frame syncronisation (vsync, gsync, etc) is turned off in a game, go to a place that has a stark contrast from bright to dark, and spin around your camera. If you notice tear lines, then frame sync is disabled

if you notice zigzags intead of tears, or you don't notice anything, then double check your graphics's card control panel and in-game settings

also, running the game in non-exclusive fullscreen will force vsync enabled. and enabling MSAA will further increase input latency in that case

[visual egret]

no, its not responsivness

[limpid panther]

then measure the un-smoothness by setting up an OSD with 1% and 5% frametime averages

if they are relatively higher in tf2 than in OW, then you can start tweaking your game settings to make them more in line with OW

also,|| OW shit game, don't play it ||

[kind falcon]

wowie moderator super contributor why would you say that

[drowsy marlin]

it is the truth

[limpid panther]

this is so weird. why is it that my game only tears on the lower half of the frame?

this would indicate that either no frames got created up until then, or that it synced at first but then gave up lol

woooooah thats so weird, it seems to get worse if I look close to a wall, even though fps doesn't change by too much

[summer steeple]

honestly i don’t really know how rendering works but i assume that your monitor presents from the top-down rather than all at once so as the frames get updated it uses that instead of the one it was just using

if that makes sense

[limpid panther]

yes, that's how tearing works

What I'm talking about is that it does not happen at the top of the frame, then starts happening more towards the bottom

seeing as my framerate is not stuterry and is perfectly smooth, one would assume that the tearing would happen all over the frame

FCAT from nvidia helps visualise this by printing a different color to the side of every frame

you can even see it getting worse when looking at the wall

looking at stuff vs looking at wall in a live match

looking at the ground doesn't have the same effect ?!?!

it's definitely not related to FPS

now I wanna know if this is linux only

but I don't have tf2 installed in a windows pc :(

it seems to have something to do with how much stuff gets drawn, but in reverse.

If I disable viewmodels, it gets even worse, but if I say, pause the game, it gets better again

no viewmodel

viewmodel

pause + no viewmodel

pause + viewmodel

a more clear example

[summer steeple]

do you have a framecap or vsync on?

[limpid panther]

no, and I don't see how that would result on this behaviour?

[summer steeple]

well if your monitor updates at 60hz, and your game is running at 120, then it might pick from 2 different frames for the same monitor update, right?

depending on when that frame arrives

[limpid panther]

this is what is happening. Every little "step" you see on the screen is a frame. On top of that you see the monitor refresh rate.

What I'm wondering is why it doesn't happen at the top of the frame, only at the bottom

[summer willow]

https://github.com/justyn0/TF2-Awesome-Pack

[jagged pawn]

this is potentially the dumbest tf2 video I've ever watched. clipped the summary https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxCjcsKLW6-B4Uh7D1y-8OU_nhq3t7-FzJ?si=J-CO-q-DdIPTdiSi

[potent wolf]

didn't a certain other guy also just upload a video about vscript gamemodes too...

anyways i'm not watching that

[jagged pawn]

oh yeah don't watch the vid I just clipped out like 20 seconds of it

but yes this is coordinated with him lol they're friends. this squad is going to kill the game unironically

like the video unironically reaches the take of "valve stop adding new content, we just want to enjoy the game for what it is" which like????? shut the fuck up dude

why do the dumbest people get the biggest platforms

[potent wolf]

my proposed solution: just ignore them

[summer steeple]

yes please

just stop talking about them i swear to god

i'm going to explode

[jagged pawn]

ok before I agreed

the problem is when it gets to this level it can genuinely affect the game

because before it was just "these items suck look at all these good items you could add instead"

which like that's stupid but it's whateve4

they're now advocating for the conclusion of new content

how the fuck are they this stupid

so now there's gonna be a huge contingent of fans that advocate for the game to die because they have slop brain

normally I'd say to ignore but this is a huge problem now

[summer steeple]

thats why the title of the video is "stop the slop"

[next nymph]

stop the count

[jagged pawn]

the next update should count all legal workshop ballots

[livid oracle]

the rise of the usage of the world "slop" spells the end of society as we know it

everyone wants to be pretentious now

[cursive peak]

Slop is pretentious?

[livid oracle]

no i mean people calling things slop

[cursive peak]

Just never heard it used pretentiously.

[crisp cedar]

"stop the slop" sure lets start with this dude's videos

theyre certified pig slop

[spare obsidian]

lets see how people roast this dude in the comments

[jagged pawn]

they won't

this is a popular take because this community is brainless

there's like 3 tf2 servers I can actually use these days without constant exposure to people that think like him lmao

[high current]

I haven’t watched any of the vscript hate videos, but in fairness, I do think vscript has a decent bit of room for not great game modes.
Everyone’s first thought with new powerful tech is to see the limits of it, so we are getting some pretty whacky things, and I was pretty impressed with saxton hale for example. But zombie infection just doesn’t appeal at all to me and it wasn’t even a super popular community game mode in TF2. So I think there’s an argument to be made of “if valve didn’t like [custom gamemode] enough to do it themselves, then keep it away”. I don’t think it’s entirely valid and zombie infection is an event game mode that we kinda just expect that style of stuff from. I don’t necessarily agree with the sentiment, but I don’t want to see TF2 get overburdened with random community gamemodes thrown haphazardly into casual.

ALSO they need to add some way for vscript mappers to actually add hud elements to the game, if they’re officially accepted. Maybe in the same way that the items directory has a workshop folder inside it for workshop content, we could have a workshop folder for the resource/ui directory?
That would make hud devs happy as the current custom hud vscript interaction is straight shit. And it would make mappers happy because I’ve only heard bad things about vscript vgui, so just give them normal vgui🤷‍♂️

[summer steeple]

ye it would be nice

there technically is a way, you an use the PD logic to set a custom res file

but thats basically all you get

via vscript (and maybe via logic?) you can set the PD values behind the scenes to get some variables but thats it

[runic dew]

i loved vsh and zombie infection

i dont see how they could be considered "slop" with the amount of effort put into them

[summer steeple]

I think its partially an argument of "does valve give enough of a shit to even develop a new gamemode"

like RD is just dead

[runic dew]

theyre not mainstay gamemodes but they dont have to be

im not dying from them taking whatever amount of disk space

[livid oracle]

i disagree

i think people raise completely valid points to dislike his content

[small siren]

*i think people raise

completely valid points to

dislike his content*

- crawl space

[high current]

ZI when it was first implemented and from all the clips, screenshots, and patch notes seemed pretty busted to me. That’s why I haven’t tried them, maybe im missing out but I also just want to stay away from the new shiny stuff because that where the bots tend to go anyway :/

[livid oracle]

i didnt like zombie infection much but i think someone is intentionally being a toxic personality if they call it slop

[summer steeple]

i haven't seen many bots in ZI

[livid oracle]

i've criticised the gamemode a lot without acting like it spells the end of western civilisation or something

[jagged pawn]

to be fair ZI was extremely rushed. but vsh is the furthest thing from slop

[high current]

They didn’t call vsh slop. I think the person in question may have called out ZI, but I didn’t take notes so I can’t recall

[livid oracle]

stop the slop

[high current]

If a gamemode is rushed and not up to par then it shouldn’t be added. Being vocally pessimistic about obviously low standards for the “ooo shiny” factor is fair.

[summer steeple]

worth noting these 2 videos were posted on the same day by 2 friends

[livid oracle]

they could add an orange map to the casual queue and i wouldnt care

i dont understand the big deal

[high current]

They never mentioned vsh though. Their entire video was about the prop hunt vscript mode that he criticized for being unplayably bad for valid reasons. The thumbnail was click baity but that’s kinda just YouTube. And I think calling ZI or prop hunt “sloppy” would be reasonable from what was shown, but “slop” is gross.

[livid oracle]

these are community stuff from ppl that aren't getting paid or anything

at most i assume they'll get donations from the map stamps that nobody buys

[summer steeple]

well they are once it gets added

[livid oracle]

idk why quality is such a huge concern for a game that has had dogshit hats for over a decade

game is fun

[high current]

What’s the point of adding game modes to the game that’s just going to die in less than a month though? That was pretty much ZJ’s point

[livid oracle]

why do anything that doesn't last forever

[high current]

I think that sentiment is why this guy is so vocal. He just wants people to care tbh

[jagged pawn]

idk which vid you're referring to but the one I sent literally said verbatim "people are here to play tf2. not prop hunt, not zombie infection, and not versus saxton hale"

which is lobotomy-pilled

[livid oracle]

what is being lost

hard disk space?

[high current]

Quality?

[jagged pawn]

the idea that they died is fictional

[livid oracle]

lmao

[jagged pawn]

you can queue up for vsh or zi right now and immediately get a match

because they're fun

[summer steeple]

there has never been a quality guarantee for tf2 community content

[livid oracle]

yeah man when i boot up tf2 i expect a super polished triple a title

[jagged pawn]

if someone doesn't want to play them I have some great news about how casual works

[summer steeple]

i think its intentionally lower because of how high CS community content's bar

reminder that the first community maps added to the game were fastline and turbine

[high current]

I haven’t tried queuing for vsh because I don’t personally play tf2 for it. But when I searched community servers for prop hunt or zombies or goofy gsmemodes about a year ago, pre vscript. I couldn’t find any servers with people.

[jagged pawn]

what

[livid oracle]

half of my playtime in tf2 is on servers where the hud elements are a transparent plain-font text and the menu is a tiny box on the left side of a screen that asks you to press 1-9 on your keyboard

[jagged pawn]

what point are you even making

"idk how many people play good game, but when I try to queue for bad game no one plays it"

huh

[livid oracle]

that has been the reality of tf2 for me for over a decade so i cant possibly care about it if tf2 adds maps i wouldnt play everyday

[summer steeple]

idk why adding new gamemodes is a bad thing because they'll """die""", for halloween shit it only comes around once a year lol

[high current]

You said those game modes weren’t dead. I said when I searched for them they were dead?

[summer steeple]

I forgot to unqueue from VSH a week or 2 ago while doing halloween shit and i got into a VSH game lol

[jagged pawn]

no you didn't you searched for a different game mode through the community browser back when these ones literally did not exist, let alone were put in the default queue that everyone plays on

[livid oracle]

when tf2 added pass time i dont think tf2 lost a huge part of itself

i found the new free hats to be extremely ugly and thats it

[jagged pawn]

it's an entirely useless point to compare because there's nothing in common

[high current]

For Halloween I say it gets a “eh whatever” but I can understand the concern for the future of vscript. If it goofy gamemodes stay event limited then it’s alright. But the valid concern is that I think their full time inclusion would just bloat the unused casual map tab

[livid oracle]

i have no idea how else it impacted my tf2 experience that i so highly care about the quality of, whatever that means

[summer steeple]

its not like valve is adding less regular maps because of a vscript gamemode

[jagged pawn]

I'm not watching the other video because I don't give views to bigots but I highly doubt there's any valid take to be had if the premise is that one rushed game mode being added and eventually fixed is grounds to stop updating the game

[summer steeple]

in both the summer and halloween update it was like 4-5 vscript gamemode maps and like 4-5 regular maps

[jagged pawn]

^

[high current]

You think prop hunt and zombies were invented by vscript? They’ve been in the game for at least a decade on community browser? I’m confused by your point?

[jagged pawn]

peaches.

I really need you to get this lmfao

[summer steeple]

also all these gamemodes get shoved into the alternatives gamemodes tab that no one reads lol

[livid oracle]

i struggle to understand how tf2 apparently implodes in the scenario where a vscript prop hunt map gets added to casual

genuinely

this feels like complaining for the sake of it

[jagged pawn]

versus saxton hale (2008, model that looks like cheese, played through console commands) is not going to have as many players as versus saxton hale (2023, actually made well, played through the default queue that hundreds of thousands use to play)

this is such common sense

there is no way you don't know what I'm saying dude

[summer steeple]

if prop hunt gets added I will simply not queue for it

[jagged pawn]

tbf this is something that needs to be fixed

a Community tab with player destruction and vsh would be so sick

bc no one is queueing for misc, understandably so. you risk getting put into hydro lmao

[runic dew]

i can see how prop hunt in particular is questionable

its a huge gimmick

[jagged pawn]

LMFAOOOOOOOOO

I'm sorry but I have to block you for saying that criticizing a youtuber is bigotry

that's so insane

anyway

[livid oracle]

i would check out prop hunt for a bit and not care about it i just dont understand how it's such a massive deal

like as if tf2 needs consistent polished quality in every aspect of it

[jagged pawn]

yeah the problem is I agree that prop hunt should probably not get added. if that was the end of it I'd have no issue with the critique. it's the fact that the mere fact that prop hunt is on workshop is leading to some freaks advocating for the end of new game modes which is absurd

[livid oracle]

it's such a strange thing to lose sleep over

[jagged pawn]

real

[livid oracle]

just say u think the gamemode sucks and thats the end of it

[high current]

It’s the truth. You refuse to listen to someone’s reasoning for them being “bigoted” then insist that their opinion is wrong. When you don’t even know what their opinion was.
Im saying if you want to disagree with someone then by all means do, but actually listen to them before you call them wrong.

[runic dew]

i haven't watched either of these videos btw

[summer steeple]

my dude they literally said transphobic things

also, everything that this video stands for could be summed up in one sentence, instead of being one long ass video

the video exists to rile people up

and send hate

[high current]

I don’t follow them on Twitter or all of tf2 stuff. I saw hubbub about their take on prop hunt and watched the video to inform myself

[summer steeple]

well now you know, the reason we're calling them bigoted is because they legitamately are

[high current]

It doesn’t honestly is fairly composed. I’d be more gentle about it personally but it’s not just hate

[high current]

They’re not freaking out over prop hunt. They’re pointing out that the prop hunt vscript that is on the workshop has no class restriction which breaks the game mode because engineers can place mini sentries to aimbot props for free, medics and dispensers can remove the prop checking cost for free, and props can’t have their collision removed so it’s impossible to hide as many props.
You didn’t watch the video so you wouldn’t know that.

[summer steeple]

the aimbot is becauseh e didn't read the tutorial

[livid oracle]

'mfao

[summer steeple]

locking the prop stops it from targetting you

[runic dew]

i dont think you should be required to read a tutorial to play a tf2 gamemode

[spare obsidian]

The tittle is if anything clickbaity if thats the case

[summer steeple]

its not really a tutorial

its just a thing that comes up when you spawn

[jagged pawn]

most well adjusted tf2 player

[heavy solar]

@jagged pawn has earned the Level 2 role!

[drowsy marlin]

Yeah whenever you say something, and then add 'but'. The thing you just said is invalid

[high current]

Im just not a fan of taking the high ground when you’re hating him more than he’s hating in the video

[summer steeple]

i'm sorry i'm just not willing to give anyone who is a shitty person the time of day

if you want to have the opinion thats fine

[high current]

That’s taken toxically out of context

[livid oracle]

the way i see it tf2 is being run by 1 valve employee just adding community content which i think is dumb and lazy of valve for a game that seems to be still massively popular and making them money

[summer steeple]

but don't point to someone like him

[spare obsidian]

tbh and thags my opinion a ttansphobic always a trabsphobic, we shouldnt give "maybe we should threat em kindly" because that means we should do the same for all tat type of people

[livid oracle]

however the way i see ppl act towards community mappers and etc is obnoxious

[high current]

I didn’t know they were transphobic. I just gave my opinion on vscript because of all the hubbub recently and then watch their video to see what the hubbub was about

[jagged pawn]

if it's not clear I don't think your point is serious enough to give the time of day so I'm mocking you for fun. I don't owe you anything

[high current]

That’s toxic af though

[jagged pawn]

you're making a "maybe mussolini had some good points" argument. I don't HAVE to take anyone seriously. if I don't want to hear someone out, I don't have to. it's that simple

[high current]

Just because I said that vscript had the potential to make bad maps get added?

[jagged pawn]

no because you said I have to hear a bigot out

[livid oracle]

i guess this argument isnt about tf2 anymore

[drowsy marlin]

Team Fortress 2

[high current]

I said your behavior is being bigoted at this moment. Which taking me harmfully out of context and then mocking me is toxic and bigoted

It’s honestly really messed up

[summer steeple]

i don't think thats what bigoted means

[spare obsidian]

We're here still waiting for dxvk

[drowsy marlin]

Can you two stfu

[jagged pawn]

I'll drop it if it makes anyone uncomfortable I just wanted to make perfectly clear to peaches that the problem is that he's dismissing bigotry. he's doing something far bigger than the game and he needs to process that. but yeah I'll drop

[drowsy marlin]

Will Source 2 come to Team Fortress 2?

[summer steeple]

no

[jagged pawn]

lmfao no

[drowsy marlin]

But mastercoms said yes

Who is right here?

[livid oracle]

after wutville i genuinely cant care about whatever gets added to tf2

[spare obsidian]

Me

[jagged pawn]

even the tfs2 fan project is on hiatus 😭

[livid oracle]

its funny and i can really only complain about hats because i have to see them

[drowsy marlin]

What if they added an official sex scene between Ms. Pauling and scout

[spare obsidian]

And more cuz big sbox refactor

[runic dew]

disregarding the specifics of the vscript version of prop hunt (havent really looked into it) i think its unintuitive compared to every other gamemode

[high current]

Yup

[jagged pawn]

nah I can't agree on this. I do still care about the quality of what gets added. I think they genuinely learned from the wutville situation and I'm hopeful that something like that won't happen again. plus the creator is working on a better version so hopefully that ends up getting added

[runic dew]

all you do in tf2 is run around, shoot the other team, stand on the glowing objective

[jagged pawn]

oh agreed. like I said prop hunt would be a bad inclusion imo

[drowsy marlin]

Will Valve ever make a balance adjustment to TF2?

[jagged pawn]

idk

[spare obsidian]

Lmao no

[summer steeple]

ASK AGAIN LATER

[jagged pawn]

LMAO

I think it depends on what you mean by balance adjustment tbh

[drowsy marlin]

I'm tired of the dead ringer being a crutch, and heavy being ass, and medic being cringe, and demoman being braindead

[jagged pawn]

like I think it's likely they'll patch stuff at some point for sure. which will affect bugs in weapons like the natascha or bonk

[spare obsidian]

Last time valve added a fan balance change their ego got to their head

[jagged pawn]

which one was that again

[drowsy marlin]

Who?

[jagged pawn]

are you referring to sketchek

[drowsy marlin]

Anyways let's add a shove to the vaccinator

[livid oracle]

i think i would be annoyed if the prop hunt map was added instead of a better map but i dint think thats the case

ppl point out that krampus map but thats gonna also be added

[small siren]

*ppl point out that

krampus map but thats gonna

also be added*

- crawl space

[drowsy marlin]

What if they did a seasonal content update?

[jagged pawn]

I have mixed feelings on krampus but ultimately it looks like a lot of love went into it

[spare obsidian]

Next update: RAID Vscripr

[high current]

I hope they add tr_walkway

[jagged pawn]

oh boy do I have news for you

[drowsy marlin]

So there's spring, summer, fall, winter

[summer steeple]

i'm working on it

[drowsy marlin]

Is there a training map that's like tr_walkway?

Like it has as many features?

[spare obsidian]

Tbh i wanted to create a coop gamemode but idk how that would work

[livid oracle]

i want a better gimmick map that isnt just more npcs that dont take crit damage

[runic dew]

it would be cool to see more "lowkey" vscript maps that put a twist on a traditional mode

like what perks does with arena

[livid oracle]

perks is great

[spare obsidian]

Its hard to make someone happy tbh

[high current]

That’s what some people have been saying

[livid oracle]

the map itself is kinda lame

[drowsy marlin]

They should port TF2 to Source 2 so community content is easier to create

[livid oracle]

like the level design

same for that giant map

[drowsy marlin]

And keep the game fresh for another couple decades

[livid oracle]

funny gimmick but it quickly gets boring the map is pretty one dimensional

[jagged pawn]

we love sulfur

[high current]

I think procedurally generated maps with vscript could be interesting

Probably impossible to balance for pvp. But maybe procedurally generated mvm?

[summer steeple]

thats what corruption's underworld is

[drowsy marlin]

Just how capable is vscript?

[high current]

Ah wouldn’t know

[summer steeple]

depends how insane you are

[high current]

Kinda like vmt proxies lol

[summer steeple]

if you don't mind reimplementing everything you want, you can do basically anything

[drowsy marlin]

Does Source 2 have vscript?

[summer steeple]

I'm going to need to reimplement popfiles

ye

[drowsy marlin]

Is vscript like scripting for unity, or unreal engine? Is it like GDscript?

[summer steeple]

uh idk

its a scripting language like lua

[drowsy marlin]

What's lua

[high current]

Thoughts on vscript training modes like Dm or mge?

[summer steeple]

the scripting language that gmod uses

[jagged pawn]

what's the point

[drowsy marlin]

Mge is an official game mode

[jagged pawn]

mge as an official thing doesn't really make much sense imo

[runic dew]

darkrp vscript in casual

[high current]

Ideally just get training modes added to the game. But they’d die pretty quick cuz the elitist would insist on playing 200 tick servers and once it’s in the misc tab it’s gone

[drowsy marlin]

Didn't Lange make mge, and then went insane a few years later?

[high current]

But what’s the harm in adding it?

[livid oracle]

hes fine now

[drowsy marlin]

Really?

TF2s training mode should be updated to be modern

It's a wonder I haven't seen a community made tutorial map

[livid oracle]

i want wild bullshit honestly

idk why ppl have to act like things are mutuallt exclusive

[high current]

Honestly porting Quakes rocket jump tutorial to TF2 would be a step up from what’s currently in

[runic dew]

the tf2 tutorial straight up has bad advice

[drowsy marlin]

TF2 is not all about rocket jumping

[high current]

They’re not, it’s just a bloat thing. At least I’m not

[livid oracle]

ONLY use rockets at long range

[drowsy marlin]

Bro the TF2 tutorial literally teaches engineers to turtle

[runic dew]

it tells you to use the rocket launcher at long range, shotgun at medium range, shovel at close range

[high current]

It’s not. But rocket jumping is very helpful and should have somewhere where you can learn it at a basic level in game.

[summer steeple]

shame valve never finished that rocket jump map

[drowsy marlin]

Yeah for like one class lol

What about uber management, or team work, or movement as scout?

[livid oracle]

you should use a slow projectile at long range instead of instant hitscan

[high current]

You know there are class specific tutorials right?

[drowsy marlin]

There's like 4 class tutorials

How do I play sniper

Or pyro

[high current]

Well in the discussion of adding more then yeh, add those

But WASD or point in click is more intuitive than rocket jumping

[small siren]

*But WASD or point in

click is more intuitive

than rocket jumping*

- peachestv

[spare obsidian]

spy thecnically has one

[high current]

That’s a gamer haiku

[livid oracle]

an actual tutorial can be made with vscript

[summer steeple]

yeah i want to make a real tutorial for funsies

with vscript it'll be WAY easier

[high current]

Where’s the ctap tutorial vscript mode

[drowsy marlin]

But what should the tutorial teach players, and how do we teach them?

[summer steeple]

for reference, the current tutorial is a MESS of logic

[small siren]

*for reference, the

current tutorial is

a MESS of logic*

- treacherousfiend

[jagged pawn]

I never understood why people think it needs 9 tutorials. you can figure out how sniper works in 3 seconds, you snipe

I think, of the classes that currently don't have tutorials, only pyro really needs one

[drowsy marlin]

Medic?

[livid oracle]

medic

for like crit heals and uber

[jagged pawn]

ehhhh fair

yeah good point

[high current]

I think rocket jumping is a good place to start. Maybe give them a wall the can jump + shoot up, then a box they need to crounch jump up, then crouch + jump + shoot wall, then a distance to cover.

[drowsy marlin]

Oh man the amount of players not aware of crit heals

[summer steeple]

look at this logic soup

[spare obsidian]

How about game mode specifict tutorials? mvm tutorial lolololo

[livid oracle]

hammer scripting is so fucked

its basically 3d visual scripting

[summer steeple]

yeah thats why they added vscript lol

[drowsy marlin]

That's why TF2 needs a source 2 port

For epic content

[high current]

I think at a certain point tutorials get overwhelming. Maybe just in general a little “tip” marker on objectives. Like on cp when you have tutorials enabled it pings the object with “capture 2nd” , “capture the enemy last to win!” Sort of thing

[livid oracle]

objective compass

[drowsy marlin]

Bad take. I'm tired of bad players everywhere

[high current]

Games having objectives isn’t a new concept at this point. So just point out the objective and that should be good?

[drowsy marlin]

Tf2 needs an official training / practice mode that's actually good

[spare obsidian]

Perhaps an excuse to backport the intructor hud from l4d lol

[drowsy marlin]

So players can practice and learn the mechanics of the game at their own leisure

[livid oracle]

does the coach system still work

[high current]

Isn’t that like the coach hud?

[spare obsidian]

No lol

[livid oracle]

it used to let you teleport

[drowsy marlin]

Remove the coach feature

[high current]

For some people it works. For almost everyone else it crashes if you manage to find anyone.

[spare obsidian]

Coach mode its been borked since 2015 iirc

[high current]

Yeh you can’t join adhoc connections for coaching. So I think someone has to request coaching on a community server?

[livid oracle]

awesome

[left sand]

ZI was super fun for me

just because something gets patches and changes doesn't mean it's bad

[left sand]

afaik you get a flat amount for the map on top of the map stamps but im not sure

[left sand]

this guy said this

i saw multiple times in the thread that these people are just being a bit harsh

and anyone criticizing any vscript gamemode and saying it should not exist is being stupid

you dont get to decide what content should and should not exist

sure, you can critique it to be improved but ultimately inclusion or exclusion from the game is on valve

we can only give feedback to improve existing content, not be a judge on whether or not a community who wanted to make something they're passionate about should or should not make content at all

also all arguments ive seen about content basically boils down to

"content i personally dont like shouldnt be in the game"

these modes are objectively very popular and fun, and misrepresenting the data on them because you're close minded is not gonna convince anyone else

the game is more popular than ever before thanks to workshop creators

there is no other content in these updates

so fucking shut up and stop this drivel, im tired of it because it comes from abuse and harassment

[livid oracle]

yeah i think it's just really disingenuous to say that they're innocent

they absolutely relish in the harassment of workshop creators

anyone else would take a step back and address their community if what they say causes their fanbase to be disruptive and obnoxious

but these guys want that

they want you as a fan to go out there and argue with people for the sake of it

in their name

how in the hell does "stop the slop" and "tf2 isn't gmod" as taglines supposed to be genuinely just about criticism lol

when they provide criticism in such videos, that's not the point of the video, they're just giving u talking points

the target audience of these videos are their diehard contrarian fans who they want to go out there and be disruptive

[left sand]

when the question becomes "should or should not this creative work exist" then it becomes inherently toxic

because it basically seeks to ultimately extinguish the creator

if the question was "how could we improve zombie infection" then thats a productive question or "what are some cool ideas for new content"

but workshop creators aren't a lump sum of creative output

you don't get to negotiate the exact product they produce

they aren't some slave that pumps out some nebulous "TF2 update content"

they are individuals who are passionate about certain things and create things based off of that

you don't get to really decide what people work on and ultimately what you're really seeking is to drive out creators from the community

you have 0 creative control over actual people

so to treat them as such, you're either saying they're content robots or that you're actively trying to purge them

[livid oracle]

imo thats the best way to put it

[left sand]

and unfortunately i feel like some people are too naive, young or just hateful themselves to really understand it

it's especially funny to me that a HUD creator would raise these points because there's so many HUDs I'd never use but ultimately it's their creative right to design and create the content they want

and it's hard for me to really understand how a creator themselves would not understand this basic premise

[livid oracle]

"slop" is such a fucking obnoxious word to use for individual creators

[left sand]

unless they aren't really thinking about the humans that create this content

because I'll admit, these youtubers do a great job masking and dehumanizing the individual and personal nature of creators

because that's exactly what their viewpoint requires

dehumanizing, and subsequently eradication

it's exactly the same principles behind other, more serious facist movements to control art

because the only way you can really advocate for this is under a facist lens

it doesn't work any other way

[left sand]

yeah, i mean ultimately these words attract the audience

because they're extremely low intelligence cave brain insults

[left sand]

https://youtu.be/_mEccmH-beY

[tacit flare]

When maps like Wutville and Bloodwater are happily accepted, all hope for some degree of quality control is out the window at this point

Then again, this is Valve, and the history of Stream greenlight should say all that is needed to be said.,

[livid oracle]

whats wrong with bloodwater

[tacit flare]

When it was first added, lots of things. For some reason halloween map makers seem insistent to cram every single map gimmick into a single map as possible with no regards to timing, location or if they actually work in the map itself.

The fact that the skeleton spawn logic was straight copied from Helltower, including the clock functions for a clock which doesn't exist says everthing.

[livid oracle]

bloodwater is fun

[radiant merlin]

valve should follow the csgo path, if a map/gamemode dies after a few weeks they should just delete it

that should have happened to wutville

[left sand]

arent you supposed to use existing game mechanics in order to make maps?

I'm pretty sure that's how entities and models work

[livid oracle]

fucked up: every halloween map uses the same skeleton models

[tacit flare]

Including logic for something that doesn't exist in the map?

[left sand]

can you explain to me the problem?

whats wrong with it

[livid oracle]

it's wrong but idk why it needs to be pointed out

i dont think it furthers any point whatsoever than maybe the mapper forgot to clean it up after copying it

if we're judging maps based on how clean they look in hammer i guess

[left sand]

doesnt bloodwater have a clock

[drowsy marlin]

Reusing assets is lazy, uncreative, and stupid. Content creators should NOT use assets. Every map should be made by scratch

[left sand]

it might be cut content

[tacit flare]

As in, it's just lazy. Copying logic is fine, but to then not suit it to the map, changing the times so you don't have Horseman and Monoculus spawning on top of each other and killing each other.

[left sand]

im not sure why that's an issue or how the 2 are related

i think it's meant to be chaotic

personally i think its funny

[livid oracle]

i think a few halloween maps go too far with random bullshit but imo bloodwater is fine

[left sand]

its not a balanced or competitive map but the game allows for such variance in play that it doesn't really matter

[tacit flare]

https://youtu.be/Vp56sx3Q4tI?t=347

[left sand]

yeah for sure, for me personally, but i can recognize some people enjoy that

EMBARRASSMENT

[livid oracle]

i forgot which map i forgot i complained about that like spawns 3 eyeballs on a losing red team

[tacit flare]

Just copy all the logic from other maps with no change to their function.

[left sand]

i think thats fine

[livid oracle]

fucked up: payload maps copy the payload entity from each other

how can they do this

[left sand]

it works so obviously it isnt completely unchanged

i think if anyone looked into logic for even valve maps youd see some fucked up stuff

[next nymph]

halloween map where the winning team gets turned into monoculi during humiliation round

@summer steeple can it be done?

[livid oracle]

idk why that wouldnt be possible

i want a vscript gamemode where the other team is literally just like tanks or mechs or some shit

[next nymph]

you play as the destructible barrels on dustbowl

[hoary geyser]

maps like gravestone are super unbalanced but still a lot of fun

[small siren]

*maps like gravestone

are super unbalanced but

still a lot of fun*

- mederp

[tacit flare]

Honestly I don't care what maps and modes get in with VScript, more the merrier. I just want some degree of quality control, as in, the bare basics. Will this map crash peoples games? Yes, lets add it lmao.

[crisp cedar]

counterargument: fortnite reused content and it got rewarded with 5 mil players

conclusion: always reuse content

[next nymph]

this could be tf2 if only content was reused

[livid oracle]

i think its ok when mappers copypaste something from another map

[crisp cedar]

so what does this have to do with prophunt

[tacit flare]

So do I, but at least spent a little bit of effort to tailor it to their map.

[tacit flare]

The overall topic of content and quality control. Considering Valve have neglected the community browser for the past 10,000 years and don't seem to have any intention of helping new players figure it out, I see no issue with it. As others have said, people can simply not tick it in the map select if they don't want it.

[crisp cedar]

what about prophunt makes it sound like its bad quality

[formal dew]

tf2 already has prop hunt

koth_ghost_fort

[tacit flare]

What should and shouldn't be in TF2's casual is a different topic to quality control, although people conflate the two.

I think Prophunt will be a fine addition, though if it's a buggy mess that crashes peoples games and Valve are happy to add it in that state, then that's a problem.

[crisp cedar]

that should be a granted with normal maps too

[livid oracle]

they should skin people alive for submitting vscript maps that are too gimmicky

[crisp cedar]

can u mine bitcoin with vscript 😳

[livid oracle]

no it runs on the server

[kind falcon]

so u can mine on the server

[livid oracle]

not worth it

[high current]

I understand how it feels from a creator perspective. I’ve become a poster child for minimal huds, which many people say shouldn’t exist. And I’ve received death threats and bomb threats over literally just a hud modification.
Im not saying those guys are good, I’m more so saying that these guys also don’t deserve death threats or bomb threats, because at the end of the day death threats and bomb threats are screwed up no matter who they’re from.

And I also don’t follow their entire lore, I really don’t know anything about them other than what’s been said here and what was said in their video. If they’re transphobic then that’s f’ed up and awful, still doesn’t justify death threats and bomb threats. Not cuz they’re good, but cuz death threats and bomb threats are bad.

Also my point about having to listen to their opinion to have an opinion on it needs some clarifying. I didn’t mean they deserve a platform or deserve to be listened to. I more so meant that in order to rebuttal what they’ve said or even say that their opinion is wrong, you need to know what their opinion was. If they’re transphobic and encouraging awful things, then it’s valid to say they don’t deserve to be listened to, but then the commentary on them should be like my very original comment of “I didn’t watch them, but I think blah about vscript” rather than “that video is dumb because he said vscript is bad and vscript is good and who cares if it is bad”

[kind falcon]

it is worth it if you manage to make something thats going to be used widely

[next nymph]

is this about the zesto jesuit

[high current]

Honestly my whole statement basically comes down to: hating them is okay, but we can’t send death threats and still sit on a high horse.

[high current]

Yeh

[livid oracle]

who's sending death threats

[kind falcon]

i am

[high current]

I’ve seen people joke about sending them bombs in the mail or killing them here, the huds.tf discord, etc. and people just go “haha funny, bombs in the mail good meme”

[next nymph]

I get what you're saying but it's pretty clear to me that the occasional "pipebomb mail cat meme" is not in the same ballpark as cultivating some of the most aggressively negative and overwhelmingly toxic parts of the community

like i think theres death threats, and then there's silly jokes that happens to be about absurd over-the-top violence

[high current]

I honestly haven’t interacted with any of their community, because I assume it just sticks to their YouTube comments and probably the unfortunate creators he features. Which is still bad, but all I know is that people sitting around jerking off about who deserves to have opinions or exist or live is scary. And I’ve seen it in the communities I participate in towards him and I don’t like it.
And it’s justified by those creators doing worse. IMO them doing worse doesn’t make people doing bad things less bad.

[next nymph]

the way I'd put it is he's fine to have opinions. But he has a responsibility over the fact that that how he presents those opinions to an audience he's cultivated frequently leads to harassment. If it's not intentional, then at the very least it's negligent.

At the same time I don't really know any instances of what you're talking about except for people who clearly don't mean any actual harm and are not intending to harass. Like there was a while back in this server where "pipebomb in your mail" was sent pretty much randomly, it didn't mean anything because the joke was that this is obviously not actual harassment or actual malice but just a ridiculous premise to laugh about. I'm sure there are people out there actually doing bad, but I don't see it.

[left sand]

he actively participates in the harassment himself

he makes the comments himself

[next nymph]

yeah i was trying to be nice to him but you dont really cultivate an audience of harassment without harassing

[high current]

I agree

[left sand]

i dont think we were ever discussing him receiving that

and the defense seemed to be more about the validity of judging workshop creations right to exist rather than a lukewarm moderate take of defending against anyone receiving harassment

and it seems like the point is changing

[high current]

I think judging workshop content is valid. There’s ways to vote on it and having healthy critiques is good. There’s absolutely right and wrong ways to go about it, and just because someone doesn’t like something doesn’t mean they get to decide what has a right to exist and what doesn’t.

[left sand]

judging the content itself is good

but by definition, judgement is constructive

what they are doing is not judgement

it is destructive

[spare obsidian]

judgment should and needs to be always neutral and constructive in a formal manner not on a mean way

[left sand]

it does not judge the work, it judges the validity of the work to exist at all

[high current]

I was referring to the only video people were discussing at the time which was the prop hun one. Where they were mainly judging the content of the map and the usage of vscript.

[left sand]

not really, if you see the work within context

that creator specifically, as well as that body of youtube argument, is part of a narrative to expunge "unholy" workshop creators from the previously pristine and good creator community

we must return back to the good days where there were only good cosmetics and maps!

[high current]

I didn’t want to watch their entire channel to join the conversation about vscript. And I didn’t know they were transphobic

[livid oracle]

i will not explain to anyone that doesnt get it

[high current]

The video that I watched as part of seeing what the hubbub was about just asked for the maps to not be added to the game.

I don’t bother looking at anime profile pictures to be honest. There are a lot of questionable ones and it’s a rabbit hole I don’t wanna jump down.

[livid oracle]

but the first time i saw his fans

and EVERY time ive seen his fans

they're just there to fling shit at ppl

[high current]

I agree. Also that wife beater is gross af

[livid oracle]

oh and one of the first times ive seen a screenshot of him it's him defending known child predator matt walsh

[high current]

Honestly making a public video in a wife beater is mental unsound.

Don’t go to Twitter period

[next nymph]

its like the guy has carefully crafted the internet persona of the worst person you'll ever meet

[kind falcon]

https://tenor.com/view/hyper-anime-lucky-star-izumi-konata-izumi-gif-20051187

[left sand]

warning sign

[kind falcon]

hello!!!

[kind falcon]

https://tenor.com/view/osaka-live-reaction-azumanga-azumanga-daioh-gif-25238398

how... how could thjat be real..

[livid oracle]

like theyre just roaming around to start shit with ppl it's weird

[kind falcon]

erm are you talking about the person thats also known as the Milwaukee Cannibal or the Milwaukee Monster,

[high current]

That’s basically the goal of any public thing now a days.

[left sand]

this is about prop hunt

mastercomfig

[kind falcon]

yes comfig very woke agenda

burn

[left sand]

go woke go broke

[kind falcon]

yes for real

[high current]

His rant wasn’t even intense tbh. I think that’s just a comment blindly hate jerking off. Which is deplorable

[spare obsidian]

I Mean literally he has that 4chan /v/ vibe on it, i thougth this was know knowledge lol

[left sand]

satin gregory outreach org

[livid oracle]

this isnt anime this is touhou

[left sand]

uhm

[high current]

I thought this was TikTok

[left sand]

this gave me a headache

this is why music theory needs to be required

[kind falcon]

even worse!

[high current]

That had the same beat of the classic “my name is blah and I’m here to say” rap battle line

[spare obsidian]

every day deplatfforming someone becomes not an option but a necessity

[crisp cedar]

first time i saw zеstys irl appearance he had a bunch of like

[small siren]

*first time i saw zеstys

irl appearance he

had a bunch of like*

- rayningforests

[crisp cedar]

half naked anime figurines in the bg or something

not a good look!

HAHAHAHAAHH

whoever dropped this shit...pick it the fuck back up!!!!!

[high current]

Just report them for harassment. It’s against YouTube tos so they’ll handle it

[livid oracle]

i cant listen to this rn can someone describe it

[high current]

The first 10 seconds, imagine someone opening an oven door and closing it, but you have soup cans over your ears.

After that I stopped listening

[livid oracle]

what if you booted up tf2 and this started playing

they added it as an official main menu music

[high current]

I preload so I don’t get menu music

[crisp cedar]

its so fuckking funny

i didnt expect this

[livid oracle]

using custom viewmodel animations is cheating

[crisp cedar]

i would not have the confidence to post this online

[left sand]

yeah i have a ton of shit, wip music

i dont post it online because its garbage

im not good at making music

i don't want to subject anyone to it nor am I looking for any comments on it because i know its bad

this guy goes with the classic oh this is bad teehee

but im posting it anyway

because he is actually proud of it

[kind falcon]

where

[runic dew]

the tf2 workshop is a place where anyone can upload whatever the hell they want and i think its really weird that people are holding anyone other than Valve accountable for what gets added

[kind falcon]

10 years ago

wowie you guys are such haters ... !!

@livid oracle probhlem?

@crisp cedar probhlem?

[crisp cedar]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/840318022223921162/853688641930788864/image0.gif

[left sand]

hes like 33 years old

[livid oracle]

what the fuck

[left sand]

i dont see how the upload date is relevant

[crisp cedar]

god i cant get over how bad this shit is

i need to show this to my friend

s

this is actually like

exceptionally bad

Remix of some guy im sure you know.
obvious work in progress, since i suck and deserve only bricks to my face.

its not evne like

its a remix?

[kind falcon]

erm. proof?

[left sand]

oh god

somehow everything he has made gives me a headache

i need to lie down now

i hope this isnt terminal

[crisp cedar]

2tgwwfuahuwahawhwah

why

hahahah this is so shit

this is like

his trademark

he starts something

and he just abruptly ends it

thats like his trademark thing for music

it soudns so baddd

[kind falcon]

https://tenor.com/view/nba-gif-15687325833433865178

[runic dew]

just tried to watch his video about prop hunt

i couldnt get through the whole thing

hes like inherently obnoxious

[crisp cedar]

why are u bothering.

we told u not to. and u did anyways.

[livid oracle]

what did you learn from the video

[livid oracle]

try watching it again but with his soundcloud in the background

[runic dew]

i learned that tf2 SUCKS

[kind falcon]

ur welcome

[runic dew]

this feels so racist even though it doesnt say anything directly racist

it just has a really strong odor

[livid oracle]

im lighting a candle for eric smith's soul