Team Fortress 2 Megathread - winter is the most chill time of year

[crisp cedar]

there hasnt been a valve made taunt ever since jungle inferno

like i said

[formal dew]

scooty scoot

[crisp cedar]

it wont be anything more than what valve said theyll add

but if its more than that

then ill take it

[formal dew]

devious bastards worded that blog post perfectly

just enough plausibility to drive engagement

[potent wolf]

Did they?

or are people just getting overly excited

[formal dew]

to me they worded it so that it's a 50/50 shot whether its more than smissmas

however, valve probably doesn't have an exact update scope in mind either

depends on organic growth internally

[crisp cedar]

more like a 95/5 shot

like at most what we might get are qol fixes

and not real balance changes

[formal dew]

valve better be aware of the backlash then

[crisp cedar]

they already know and anyone who made the huge major updates possible is already gone

[formal dew]

unless it's a reverse psychology manuever where they use the underwhelming update as an excuse to drop support down to the true maintenance level

[crisp cedar]

its just small updates from here on out

[formal dew]

if it is just smissmas sized, they shouldn't have done the blog post

[rare creek]

its not going to be smissmas 2021, its going to be smissmas 2011

a smissmas-sized update when they actually had content in them

[potent wolf]

lmao i think i pissed a sniper main off

"fuck off pyro sh*thead"

[next nymph]

i think i pissed off a sh*thead main

[potent wolf]

Yeah, i do main scout

[high current]

“But this year, we're planning on shipping a full-on update-sized update — with items, maps, taunts, unusual effects, war paints and who knows what else?!”

I don’t think there’s necessarily anything misleading about this. “Items, maps, taunts, unusual effects, war paints, etc” doesn’t really promise all that much. It really only promises marginally more than something like smissmas, by presumably suggesting that we’ll get main map pool maps. “Who knows what else?!” Could really just imply potentially new gamemodes or something along those lines, seeing as vscript opens up a lot of possibilities.

I think the YouTube community has been really blowing things out of proportion, judging by the thumbnails at least. Assuming they deliver the proven-to-be-achievable amount of content they listed, the community has no right to be disappointed with Valve. If they are disappointed it should only be with the YouTubers thirsting for click bait.

[crisp cedar]

bbbased

tldr

dont listen to youtubers

form your own opinions

[potent wolf]

NO >:(

[jaunty willow]

IKR??

[left sand]

its literally just introducing a 3rd update of the same kind

[craggy ridge]

wouldn't it be cool and cute if it was like

a blue moon style update

that would be so

poggers.......

[potent wolf]

just without the theme requirements

it's good

but people are getting waaaay overexcited

[high current]

People are setting themselves up to be disappointed. Just for the sake of hating on Valve.

[formal dew]

Hating?

[high current]

People love to criticize Valve for not delivering on promises. That’s why they basically never do it.
Unfortunately that means when they do make a promise people get hype for no reason.

[formal dew]

How long will the fanbase keep the hype capacity

[high current]

Just look at the recent-ish CSGO operations. People said they didn’t deliver and got angry even though they were objectively the biggest updates in years, if not ever. And Valve didn’t even promise anything.

[high current]

Idk what that question means

[cursive peak]

I've said it multiple times. We could get an update with 30 new maps, 400 new weapons, an entire SFM series, and bug fixes galore and people would still find reason to hate on it.

[crisp cedar]

the thing is that valve has to respond to community anger

they cant treat tf2 like they treat csgo and dota

[formal dew]

What i mean is basically when will the fanbase either quit the game or give up all hope and hype for anything relating to tf2

[crisp cedar]

although lately they havent been doing much responding lol

[high current]

Tbh I get hype anytime any game releases an update with “optimized” anywhere in the patch notes. Partially cuz I’m a nerd but also because almost no on (especially valve) like cleaning up and optimizing old code.

[cursive peak]

Look at how poorly End of the Line was received.

[next nymph]

map #23 was pretty mid so

[high current]

If people wanted updates they wouldn’t be playing tf2. They play tf2 because it’s fun. If they wanted frequent updates they would have left 10 years ago.

[formal dew]

Oh

[wintry marlin]

my map

[crisp cedar]

see all the tf2 sourcemods

literally nobody plays them

[formal dew]

Like, the response seems more energetic then i expected

Valve saying anything relating to the game still causes enormous hype, and I wonder when that will stop

[wintry marlin]

Fact of the matter Valve knows that tf2 fanbase are inpatient children and plays along

[formal dew]

Maybe it wont as long as youngsters still get on

[high current]

People enjoy updates, but it’s not why the play tf2. It’s like getting a gift from your SO. You don’t expect it but you enjoy it when it happens

[wintry marlin]

if you like tf2 so much why don't you marry it

[formal dew]

Illegal

in 45 countries

[crisp cedar]

me getting brown medals in comp tf2

[high current]

My absolute ideal tf2 update: optimize the game at all, nerf wrangler by 5-10%, nerf fists of steel by 5-10%, maybe hardcode a few less things in the HUD.

I’d never expect any of that. But that’d be my dream update.

[cursive peak]

Aside from a few maps I think should be stock, I'd really rather not get new content and would prefer performance improvements and bug fixes.

[wintry marlin]

wrangler needs a redesign imo

[summer steeple]

same tbh

[formal dew]

Agreed essentially

[summer steeple]

content wise tf2 already has a ton

[craggy ridge]

Ik a guy

[potent wolf]

yep, we desperately need bugfixes and perf

[craggy ridge]

who can give people medals

[formal dew]

I'd also like the item server to be less shit

[wintry marlin]

but tf2 is like dota and csgo
all of those games have insane amount of content

[summer steeple]

i’m biased on the mapping department because i map and would of course like to get maps in the game

[crisp cedar]

okay ill be honest

you know what i want

you want to know what i want for tf2

i want a metal sink

[summer steeple]

but like there’s so many already

[crisp cedar]

i wanna go back to the days of 1.33 hats

[high current]

Wrangler needs a removal from the face of the planet. But just bumping it down a touch would be healthier for the game, since if we only get changes every 5 years they need to be done carefully.

[craggy ridge]

he explained the process in a vc but I don't remember it correctly 100%

[crisp cedar]

i wanna go back to the days of 20 ref per key

[craggy ridge]

but basically valves gives him codes for medals

and then he puts the codes in a software and then players are awarded with the medals

[wintry marlin]

let's make tickets craftable and drop the cost of australiums from the stratosphere

[crisp cedar]

no

give me a metal sink

[wintry marlin]

make tickets cost 10 ref to craft

[craggy ridge]

too bad he is anti-semitic

[high current]

I wanna go back to the days of 3 ref per key. I remember thinking that was a lot.

[crisp cedar]

ehh

thinking back on it

[potent wolf]

Oh my god i wantttt the codes

[crisp cedar]

3 ref per key

is so small

insanely small

i think 20 ref was perfect

15-20 ref per key was perfection

it genuinely blew me away

that like

i leave the game for 4 years

and check back on it

[wintry marlin]

3 ref per key is like when tf2 playerbase was the size of a fuckin middle school

[crisp cedar]

and keys are 62 ref

thats so crazy

[rare creek]

my ideal tf2 update: make the game better and fix the bugs and make it better and fix optimize bugs exploit and better

[crisp cedar]

hats are 1.88

insane

[wintry marlin]

5k

[crisp cedar]

anyways i want two things

i want a metal sink

and i want more love to underutilized gamemodes

[high current]

Honestly any metal sink would help the game a lot. I liked the idea of being able to craft silver Australium-equivalents using like 200 ref. But honestly that’d probably be an awful idea.

[crisp cedar]

too much work

[wintry marlin]

nah metal needs to be perma consumable

[high current]

Give me actual player destruction maps. Hightower player destruction when👀

[wintry marlin]

to balance out

[crisp cedar]

one minute

[summer steeple]

simply disable phong on regular australiums

[wintry marlin]

the cost of other things that are unfairly priced

[potent wolf]

make all koth maps into pd maps

[summer steeple]

oh man i hope atom smash gets added this update

[wintry marlin]

it's fuckin pixels on the screen

[summer steeple]

non halloween monster bash

[wintry marlin]

who cares about nobodies with golden pans

[potent wolf]

OH MY GOD PIXELS

I LOVE PIXELS

[summer steeple]

it looks sooo damn good

[wintry marlin]

make australiums cheap

[crisp cedar]

nvm

[high current]

Honestly I love the look of silver australiums. But the visual bugs of the settings just aren’t worth it :(

[rare creek]

they'd be worth 5 ref in a matter of days

[wintry marlin]

people who bank on cosmetics are literally like
haha infinite money glitch

[rare creek]

just like how botkillers are now basically worthless

[wintry marlin]

now introduce infinite money sink bitches

[crisp cedar]

i think that like

tf2 having an economy

is so fascinating

like i was never mega into trading

but

its so fascinating to think about

no other game has something like this

[high current]

I know but imagine the initial ref sink.

[crisp cedar]

like trading, yea

but a whole fucking economy

with currency that the players decided upon

thats so crazy

[high current]

With inflation👀

[craggy ridge]

pyrocynical

[wintry marlin]

partially thanks to gambling.
the economy exists thanks to RMTs.

[high current]

Tf2 ref was the original crypto currency, prove me wrong

[crisp cedar]

anyways they should let you craft tools using metal

[wintry marlin]

craftable paints and tags? based

[crisp cedar]

in dota you can get name tags, strange part extracters, description tags, etc for free

you just need to play for it

and earn it

so

i think you should be able to craft things like decal tools and name tags

and strange part transfers

[wintry marlin]

considering that paints and tags are random drops in tf2 already

perhaps

[high current]

Bring back Halloween spells but make it so you need metal to be able to apply them and or be able to craft a “container” for them to last past Halloween.

[crisp cedar]

not sure about paints

but tags are easy

[wintry marlin]

they are randomly dropped

it should be easy

you also get random hat drops

but those are craftable already

[crisp cedar]

tags should be done first to see feedback and to see what would happen to metal's worth when it happens

[wintry marlin]

literally make anything that can randomly drop craftable

for fuck's sake dragon's fury isn't craftable

gas passer isn't craftable

hot hand isn't craftable

[crisp cedar]

she doesnt know

[wintry marlin]

I am talking about the actual unique recipes

[high current]

(This is a bad joke)
Make an anime body pillow item that is unusable, unequippable, untradable, but literally just sits in your inventory. Make each on cost 100 ref.

All ref will be gone in a day.

[formal dew]

The ji weps got craftable recently, but didn't get recipes

additionally, they forgot to add the first 100 craft number attribute

[wintry marlin]

unfortunate

[formal dew]

yup

[crisp cedar]

i think paint should be craftable but like

it gives you a random paint for like 10 refined metal

[wintry marlin]

because paint is kinda expensive for no good reason

[crisp cedar]

so its still gambling in a way

[wintry marlin]

you're literally paying for a fuckin rgb color swap

[crisp cedar]

and so the high tier paints dont fall in price

[formal dew]

I never used paints that much

[crisp cedar]

me neither

[wintry marlin]

you can literally do what tf2 paint does in sfm for FREE

[formal dew]

lifehack

[left sand]

they do random drops afaik in tf2 for these

[high current]

Strange parts are crate drops right?

[crisp cedar]

still

hats drop too and you can craft random hats

[left sand]

but yeah i would much prefer contracts or something

that you can grind

[potent wolf]

contracts are cool

[left sand]

infinitely

for blood money

[potent wolf]

i really wish they would go further with them

[crisp cedar]

i would like contracts more if you didnt have to wait until a game ends

would be more fair if it was like

[wintry marlin]

I want infinite contracts so I can grind for strange bovine blazemaker

[crisp cedar]

"you can turn this contract in 5 minutes or when the game ends"

[wintry marlin]

we are not the same

[formal dew]

gentlemanne collection mk2 please

[high current]

Give us not-awful contracts that reset weekly.
“Get 10,000 damage”
“Get 100 kills”
“Cap 10 objectives”

Not that “slap 4 people with the hot hand in a single life” bs.

Those numbers are probably low for weekly’s. But just generally achievable things. Not obscure things that encourage throwing.

[formal dew]

There should be a weekly weapon contract which helps players get used to new weapons which gives out either that gun or blood money if you already have a copy

And a monthy large contract which gives out a keyless warpaint case so you can get maybe 3 war paints from the shop

[hybrid cloud]

contracts with ultra generic goals are probably the best way to go about them

[next nymph]

extine

[next nymph]

the picture is of tf2 personality eXtine

[spare obsidian]

i have a hot take: balanced mods in tf2 are like custom weapons servers, they're just a gimmick, that can wear out so quickly

[high current]

Balance mods in tf2 aren’t balance mods. They’re weapon remakes. A balance mod would tweak the few items that need tweaking by a few % until the weapon was balanced.
To my knowledge a mod like this does not exist. They all add funky new stats or new mechanics to change how weapons function to be more “balanced”, typically by just making everything situational and highly gimmicky.

[craggy ridge]

Majority of weapons can be better balanced by reworks

[next nymph]

i disagree: the problem with balance mods is that they think "i will tweak a few percentage points" is a good way of balancing

like they will still add new stats and stuff but then be like "hmm i theorycraft that this might be slightly too strong, i'll add -2% reload speed"

[cursive peak]

I thought Peaches meant stuff like leaving a weapon alone but changing X% to Y% on a stat or two.

[next nymph]

imo there is no weapon in the entire game whose problem is that its values just need a little tweaking

[crisp cedar]

i think balance mods do this weird thing like

"well theres no reason to use stock so we will give stats to stock weapons"

[small siren]

*"well theres no reason

to use stock so we will give

stats to stock weapons"*

- rayne

[crisp cedar]

"this weapon is a reskin so we will give it different stats"

i think stock should just be stock and weapon skins should just be weapon skins

[small siren]

*i think stock should just

be stock and weapon skins should

just be weapon skins*

- rayne

[spare obsidian]

also i forgot to add that most balance server's demographic target most of the time lends towards the competitive side of things

[next nymph]

but also not too competitive, because they all do really weird things that would be extremely silly in comp

[cursive peak]

Let's start one with the intention of making the useless weapons viable.

[spare obsidian]

like for example gass passer outside of MVM is just garbo lol

like the only purpose i see for it is jsut to ignite pyros

[cursive peak]

I was thinking Sharpened Volcano Fragment and Third Degree.

[next nymph]

neon annihilator buff: minicrits on burning too

[formal dew]

attacking a burning player makes the neon tubes explode into a big wrap assassin like explosion

gotta respawn like the caber

[next nymph]

i want to like neon annihilator because i feel like it has potential to be a very versatile weapon, but instead its just implemented as a mishmash of super situational things that rarely matter

[high current]

Idk. I think “balance” mods that are entire reworks have their place. But reworking items just seems like not a viable way to achieve the things balance mods want. I guess most of them aim to provide a pub experience better. But if it’s something like the smash melee balance mod then I’d assume something aimed for competitive or for valve to implement, then the current way it’s done isn’t realistic.

Honestly the two main items I could see being tweaked in this way would be wrangler and fists of steel. Maybe things like the short circuit could receive “no metal from dispensers or carts while equipped” as part of this.

[craggy ridge]

nerfing every unlock to make stock better is dumb

becasue it also nerfs the class overhaul

[high current]

Honestly most melee slots are fine. Stock is usually the best weapon and other unlocks just accept that melee is dookie and that you’d rather have a worse weapon with better utility.

[craggy ridge]

Why is it not a viable way?

[spare obsidian]

the problem with balance mods is they add stats to stock weapons and threads reskins has a total different weapons but that's just me

[high current]

I don’t think there’s a way or need to balance that. If you make every stock melee such a better weapon that it outclasses the bonus utility, you have Chivalry.

[craggy ridge]

Scout, Soldier, Pyro, Heavy, Engineer (?), and Medic

[spare obsidian]

don't get me started on balanced mvm servers lol

[craggy ridge]

So, just add utility to it?

[high current]

If you receive a balance tweak from valve every 5-10 years you don’t want to totally change a weapon in a broken way for 5 years. Just look at the ambassador, everyone agrees the change was overly harsh, but valve hasn’t done anything yet

[spare obsidian]

if there's not a way of how you can balance a class then it is straigh up banned lol

[high current]

Just don’t mess with melee with the exception of outliers. Stock melee is in a fine place.

[spare obsidian]

balance mvm servers are more wild than just standard balance servers

[next nymph]

i want unbalanced mvm servers

[high current]

Honestly yeh

[spare obsidian]

infinity money servers are underrated tbh

[high current]

That’s the whole fun of mvm

[craggy ridge]

Rolling out a revert change if a weapon rework turns out to be broken isn't hard, valve tends to (sometimes) revert changes if the community is largely against it

[craggy ridge]

almost half of them are pure trash

[spare obsidian]

i love mvm servers that randomize the mission that happens in the map causing funny moments like tanks instantly appearing in one of the two control points or just final lol

[craggy ridge]

there's no unbalanceable class in mvm

[spare obsidian]

tell that to mission makers lol

they either cripple other classes

[high current]

I don’t think valve has ever reverted a balance change. They’ve reverted a few changes to things like server settings in the past. But I think they’re pretty stubborn with balance changes. So saying “it’s not that hard” isn’t really valid when difficulty isn’t the issue.

[spare obsidian]

or just ban them lol

[craggy ridge]

WHAT

I could skim of the wiki and cite like 10 reverts

[high current]

Name a stock weapon that is a worse damage dealing weapon that isn’t the fire axe + third degree.

[next nymph]

stock medigun

literally negative damage

[craggy ridge]

Like the replacing no random crits with 25% damage penalty and the stickbomb nerf revert, which both got changed in like less than a week

[craggy ridge]

You don't use stock melees to deal damage

the problem starts there

[high current]

Add the ability for medigun to steal life from enemies

[spare obsidian]

i'm still saying that they could made Competitive be just Highlander mode with weapon whitelis mode made by them and class limits, like not need to re-invent the wheel again

[high current]

That’s the whole point of everything I’ve said homie.

[next nymph]

valve comp shouldve been 2v2 soldier only bball

[high current]

Stock weapons are the best weapons for the melee slot. But melee is dog water. So everyone would rather trade melee damage ability for utility.

[craggy ridge]

What point, how are they being useless aside from damage dealing (which you never do with your melee) in a good spot

[craggy ridge]

So, why can't you have a stock melee that gives utility?

[spare obsidian]

balancing weapons gets more weirder in mvm like i say again because, most of the balance mods in mvm is "buff meta weapons and cripple pyro to the point it isn't even fun to play"

[craggy ridge]

balancing mvm sounds painfully easy

mvm is mostly fine aside from the main stinkers

[high current]

Cuz melee is point less. It always will be. Unless you make every stock melee do 180 damage per swing utility is always going to out weigh damage. And stock weapons having utility with no downside would just not make sense.

[spare obsidian]

in theory

don't cripple meta weapons or you would get the wrath of your local mvm tryhard

[craggy ridge]

Why do weapons need to be arbitrarily bad? And why can't it just have utility with no downside?

[craggy ridge]

let them cope?

[next nymph]

balance to make stock melee better: -90% ammo on all weapons

[craggy ridge]

ScotRes, Canteens, Beggars, Explosive Headshot, Wrangler and Gas Passer to an extent are dumbshit weapons/upgrades in mvm

[spare obsidian]

like this is a hard to take pill but: banning gass passer explosion upgrade its dumb lol

[next nymph]

is there randomizer mvm

[high current]

They aren’t arbitrarily bad. They are the best weapon. They are just not the best utility. If literally every melee has utility. It would just be Csgo where dudes run with their melees out half the time.

[spare obsidian]

iirc yes

[next nymph]

scout with rocket launcher and medigun

[craggy ridge]

If they don't give you an utility they are not the best weapon

[small siren]

*If they don't give you

an utility they are

not the best weapon*

- Pudding

[craggy ridge]

I don't even think stock melees should necessarily be the best choice ever

I just think they should be in pair with the other unlocks

[high current]

Weapon does damage. Utility does utility👀

[spare obsidian]

the problem with balancing melee is well TF2 Hit Reg problems lol

easiest way to test melee is a 24/7 degroo keep server

[high current]

You know how much damage the fire axe would have to do to be as valuable as the move speed from the power jack or the sapper removal of the home wrecker?
Even if it was an insta kill I don’t think people would run it.

[craggy ridge]

That's just semantics, the unlocks itself have upsides that give the utility

[high current]

And they have downsides to balance the utility

[craggy ridge]

TF2 is balanced in such a way that Stock melees don't necessarily need to have downsides if they had utility

[high current]

What

[craggy ridge]

Example, the downside of a fire axe with utility is that you wouldn't be able to benefit from the Powerjack's speed

[high current]

Tf2 is balanced in such a way that stock melees have no upsides or downsides

[craggy ridge]

if they had

[high current]

You’re saying it should be a different way

Then they would have been made that way

If you’re going to add utility to stock melee, just have it so every class has a passive ability that activates if they don’t take damage for 10 seconds. Then remove melee slot entirely.
It’d have the same effect

[rare creek]

valve comp should be 4v4 pass time 3 soldier 1 demo

[high current]

Stock melee isn’t even bad. There are comp players with golden pans that run golden pan on every class and are never held back.

[craggy ridge]

except you wouldn't be able to switch out the "utility", which you can do with unlockable melees

[spare obsidian]

are they even humans? lol

[rare creek]

https://youtu.be/m_O6vKNt0kA

[spare obsidian]

i don't suck at melee but i feel like

that sometimes i clearly hit someone

but the game decides

"nop you didn't"

[craggy ridge]

the whole point of buffing stock is to add more variability

[high current]

You just don’t melee in comp. I’ve clipped every melee kill I’ve gotten in comp and it’s like maybe 100 over the past 20 seasons. Including wrap assassin kills.

[spare obsidian]

ik that melee is like the last resort tool you have when you ran out of ammo

[high current]

You have variability. If you want to kill someone with melee you run stock.

No one wants to kill people with melee. That’s why you don’t see stock.

[craggy ridge]

You are just proving my point that stock fucking sucks and that making them utility melees would be the better move

[high current]

I’m saying you’re asking for a different game at that point

[craggy ridge]

I thought it was already obvious that I want to have variability in my unlock choice without significantly butchering my potential to perform in game

[high current]

That’s what stock is for. If you want to kill people

[craggy ridge]

And that's a dogshit purpose

that makes them bad

I don't want them to be bad

They don't need to be bad

[spare obsidian]

i think the only way to balance a weapon in tf2 is if in the hypotetic case valve wants to, they could ran a 5 months experimental server with the balance changes made for that weapon

[high current]

They aren’t bad, you’re just looking at their role wrong

[craggy ridge]

Their role fucking sucks lmfao

[formal dew]

in mannpower, there's no random crits and melees are globally buffed to i wanna say 85 damage

might be interesting to consider

[craggy ridge]

yourself said it

[high current]

They have their place if you want the absolute most damage output. That just isn’t the case in comp and everyone wants to be b4nny.

[spare obsidian]

i mean mannpower by itself is very overpowered lol

they cripple good players

[formal dew]

true but it's an interesting idea

[craggy ridge]

When will you ever realistically want that over a utility?

There's a mountain of difference between something like the basher and the stock bat

[spare obsidian]

i think this is not related to balance but passtime should force melee only tbh

[craggy ridge]

I don't consider a weapon to be good if they are only useful in one niche scenario every 5 hours of gameplay

[craggy ridge]

how to kill the gamemode in 1 change

you can make it so hitscan doesn't make the ball go neutral

and the gamemode is 50% better already

[high current]

Scout: Stock bat. If I never needed to build and I was on badwater where the map doesn’t allow wrap assassin.
Soldier: if I was playing a tight map and wanted a banner secondary so my only other option to not self damage was melee.
Pyro: third degree exists.
Demo: all the time.
Engi: if I’m repairing my sentry more than building a new one.
Heavy: if I want to roll out with a bufff.
Medic: if my teammates suck.
Spy: all the time.
Sniper: if I’m running smg.

Stock melee is fine🤷‍♂️

Third degree needs a nerf actually.

[spare obsidian]

i think the first one was before

they fixed the issue

(and its funny because its one line fix lol)

[grim parcel]

noooooooo it's funny

[craggy ridge]

Scout: Atomizer
Soldier: Disciplinary Action or even the Escape Plan can perform significantly better
Pyro: No idea what you are talking about, third degree is just as bad as stock and it existing makes stock even worse
Heavy: FOS
Medic: 80 millisecond difference is never actually going to be worth over 25% more uber

Those were the 5 classes that I cited previously when talking about stock melees, ofc demo and sniper and the other classes are fine

[cursive peak]

Third Degree doesn't need a nerf. It's only overpowered in the most technical definition of the term. In practice, it's only slightly better than stock.

[craggy ridge]

it needs a buff lmfao

[spare obsidian]

the weapon that everyone can agreed that really needs a rework is gas passer lol

like unironically i spend a week only using gas passer and it was like: pain.

[high current]

Scout: Why would you run atomizer on any map other than swiftwater? winger gives you more jump height and you give up less.
Soldier: Give up 25% damage for extra melee range in that scenario? No way. If you are too low health to splash yourself you need the bonus dmg. Escape Plan, is good but if you dont have a team to run into you die with it out in the situation described.
Heavy: If you can run fists of steel probably, but if youre in a pub and youre the only competent player with no one to draw fire from you or your medic, youre fucked with that heal penalty.
Medic: Shade ran stock melee and is generally considered the best medic of all time. He frequently used the melee timing to catch experienced players off guard.

[craggy ridge]

Winger is not nearly as good in finishing than the pistol

Way faster rollouts for both you and your teammates, bigger distance rocket jumps and safer means of escaping more than make up for the damage penalty, besides longer
range generally proves to be more useful in combat

FOS has been bugged for like 6 years, in practice it has no downside

Even if your enemies are feeding for a medic using melee for some reason, and that SOMEHOW you are benefiting more from the 160 millisecond difference than actually getting 1/4 of your uber meter completed, the Solemn Vow exists and it gives you an extremely useful upside for an even more pitiful downside of only 80 milliseconds of difference in swing speed time

[cursive peak]

Summer 2013 had a pretty nice update. https://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/July_10,_2013_Patch

[craggy ridge]

hopefully we will get a blue moon 2

[formal dew]

Full moon update

[hybrid cloud]

stock melee utility is being absolutely last resort damage

imo if you're not in any situations where it's necessary to pull it out it says more about your skill as a player than anything the weapon itself has

they're sort of, relics?

melee weapons were made with a version of tf2 in mind where the only reliable source of ammo was map pick ups and dispensers, unless im wrong and they had ammo pick ups on dead players immediately after release

[formal dew]

Something i've thought about was making dead people drop small ammo packs instead

But probably a bad idea

[daring tiger]

for what purpose

[formal dew]

to make ammo packs and engineers slightly more important

[hybrid cloud]

to give melee more screentime idk

[formal dew]

On the other hand

it would slightly nerf engineers at the same time

[crisp cedar]

youre wrong

before gun mettle, walking up to a weapon dropped by an enemy gave you ammo/metal

after gun mettle they added war paints and also the ability to swap your weapon with a weapon on the ground

and made players drop medium ammo on death

[rare creek]

yor;ue*

[crisp cedar]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1066769260946395216/1072617673575387276/535A2AF0-6731-4DE7-A813-9595BAF104E8.gif

[craggy ridge]

What the fuck does this mean lmfao

Should I purposefully feed to get in close range with a melee weapon so it can prove useful

[hybrid cloud]

apparently before picking up weapons you couldn't pick up anything at all until 2008

[hybrid cloud]

i don't think every weapon needs to have 24/7 use

[craggy ridge]

So what you are saying, is that stock melee weapons haven't aged well due to multiple game changes and multiple unlocks that were added with time?

So you are just agreeing with me

[craggy ridge]

There's a difference between a 24/7 use and only being useful every 8 hours

[hybrid cloud]

yea meleed haven't aged well but i find it a little pointless to buff them personally

i can't see how you would

[craggy ridge]

passive benefits

or just utility benefits in general

[hybrid cloud]

i feel like that would be really finnicky, idk

[craggy ridge]

your loss

[slender nexus]

I only use stock-ish melee when I play around as funny pan knight

[left sand]

they should base all tf2 weapons off of dota items

[potent wolf]

go back to the dota megathread >:(

[slender nexus]

inb4 valve ports the Rick and Morty announcer pack from dota 2

[small siren]

*inb4 valve ports the

Rick and Morty announcer

pack from dota 2*

- hikikostar

[next nymph]

iron branch scout melee

[high current]

If every melee could backstab they’d see more use🤷‍♂️

[potent wolf]

I think we should add facestabs to the knife

[high current]

Agreed

Give spy a throwing knife as a melee

[potent wolf]

Give spy a gun that instakills people

and has infinite ammo, and no reloading

[high current]

Honestly just make picking spy win the game. First team to pick spy wins

[small siren]

*Honestly just make

picking spy win the game. First

team to pick spy wins*

- peaches

[high current]

That truly was poetry

[next nymph]

alternative: spy instantly loses

[high current]

But what if no one picks spy? It’ll stalemate harder than 6s

[formal dew]

Spy should insta kill with every gun but have a 1/1000 chance every tick of his head exploding and instantly dying

like the sword of damocles in isaac

and from mythology

[cursive peak]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LGzc0pIjHqw

[grim parcel]

that's not actually a thing...right?

[kind falcon]

?

[grim parcel]

does dota 2 have a rick and morty announcer pack?

[kind falcon]

https://dota2.fandom.com/wiki/Rick_and_Morty_Announcer_Pack

[formal dew]

Uh oh

[summer steeple]

I wonder if they'll update that with the new VAs once that happens so that they don't have roiland in their game

[jade scroll]

i mean, they aren't doing that with the show itself (i think?)

[summer steeple]

i thought they were

[slender nexus]

did Rick and Morty have a Simpsons scenario where adult swim had soundalikes on standby incase a VA leaves

[jade scroll]

no but roiland has almost zero contributions beyond easily replicable and imitable voices, and the concept of the show

they probably new that if new va's for rick and morty were needed they could just get anyone who could replicate the voice, no need to have someone on standby

[grim parcel]

god damn it

[summer steeple]

yeah he has had jack shit to do with the show for years iirc

[small siren]

*yeah he has had jack

shit to do with the show for

years iirc*

- fiend

[summer steeple]

aside from voices

[high current]

It’s more common for shows to just sub in a writer or someone on site who can do a pretty good impression of the voice and then fix it in post. Work with voice actors enough and you end up developing pretty good imitation skills apparently.
Actually more common than you’d expect in cases where a voice actor is absent because of sickness or whatever.

[rare creek]

why is this in the tf2 game files, everybody is talking about the leaks and not even caring about what we already have

[left sand]

because that's literally not part of the game?

thats steam ui files for the old minigames

that's why they're in platform

[rare creek]

huh

sorry

[left sand]

what

you didnt see all the references for steam in the platform addons folder?

no need to apologize

[rare creek]

there isn't that many to where I'd think it'd be something in steam,

[left sand]

in common

[rare creek]

wdym

[left sand]

the common folder

in the screenshot you just posted

are you not seeing it?

[rare creek]

o I see it

now

[jaunty willow]

https://github.com/ValveSoftware/Source-1-Games/issues/4689

yes

please

[kind falcon]

sussy

[grim parcel]

give me back my ipod dead ringer valve!!

[mystic turtle]

NICE

[jaunty willow]

reacting to the post may increase the consideration of this

may or may not + you don't loose anything

[rare creek]

let's hope all servers get sv_pure -1!

[jaunty willow]

thats not whats its about

its about adjusting sv_pure 1 to be less strict

rather than enforcing sv_pure -1

or 0

[crisp cedar]

i would be fine with sv pure if it didnt crash my game when i joined servers with it on lol

[rare creek]

I still hope all servers get sv_pure -1!

sv_pure has no reason to exist when you can find completely undetected wallhacks on github

[kind falcon]

gihtub

[rare creek]

ya

[kind falcon]

hey lucy wanna game

[rare creek]

I wanna RUST!

but sure

how do I play

[kind falcon]

what would youl iek to play

or do you not give a DAMN!

[rare creek]

tf2

[kind falcon]

fortyngih

[rare creek]

what

[kind falcon]

#1071852623738708049

[rare creek]

or garry's mod

[kind falcon]

you play like god

add me

[rare creek]

Multiple game bans on record

[kind falcon]

yup.

[rare creek]

bannde for dicks ucking

what addons should i add

[kind falcon]

@left sand ban this individual

[rare creek]

https://tenor.com/view/anime-cry-sad-gif-14080503

[kind falcon]

https://tenor.com/view/invisible-ink-pig-head-memoji-gif-25029183

sorry i have no friend requests incoming ,.

[rare creek]

you dont need to

[kind falcon]

why

[rare creek]

steam://run/4000//connect%20p2p:76561198101291574/ might work good enough

[kind falcon]

sorry i dont have gmod

[rare creek]

what now

[kind falcon]

oh my goodness gracious

[rare creek]

look how big this gmod map is (fridge for scale)

[kind falcon]

thats pretty cool . now go in space

[rare creek]

you can sand on the planets

[craggy ridge]

i hate tf2tubers

[wintry marlin]

Literally want to remove the site rn

I refused to watch anything other than zesty and monkey

[craggy ridge]

WHAT

LMAOOOO

out of all tf2tubers

these are the worse choices

[wintry marlin]

"manage your expectations"

[kind falcon]

what are your favorites

share

[craggy ridge]

idk

[wintry marlin]

shooting the messenger aren't we

[craggy ridge]

Yup Kup

he's fun

Grip uh

he's cool too

[wintry marlin]

they've been preaching non event-themed content since forever so I feel like they are the ones being acknowledged

[craggy ridge]

all i know about monke is that he is catastrophically bad at the game and as big of a transphobe as zesty

[wintry marlin]

yes, of course, shooting the messenger

[craggy ridge]

DAJDAIDHAUDADAIDJAIDA

HE JUST SAID "I HAVE BLACK FRIENDS"

[kind falcon]

okay

[wintry marlin]

notice the difference.

[craggy ridge]

also this is the biggest dick riding I've ever seen

[wintry marlin]

like come on now

if your entire argument that you shouldn't watch their videos because of their twitter bulllshit then you really don't know what I'm I'm referring to by saying "manage your expectations"
everyone else is hyping it to hell, this channel constantly complains about it, they aren't, so.

[craggy ridge]

shork is one of the most wholesome persons I know

[wintry marlin]

all I'm saying, don't shoot the messenger.

[craggy ridge]

that's not what I said

It's just that their takes usually suck ass

[wintry marlin]

I don't like watching this guy though.

mmm, this one has a hot take, you can tell

[wintry marlin]

their twitter takes - 100%
their videos? you never know.

you would shit yourself if you realized that people have lives outside of tf2, honestly

JonTron is likeable on video but he's a dumbass on twitter

[craggy ridge]

what does this mean I am talking about his videos

[kind falcon]

this man should

work on his overwatch channel instead, thats what im thinking

[wintry marlin]

you haven't even watched the ones I shown

if you dig into their substance there's literally nothing to argue about

Like, from what I've seen, this channel complains that everyone is either overhyping the update or it goes to shit
they are sitting right inbetween, firmly, saying that you shouldn't expect a major update but not say that their family will die if they make it worse somehow

[rare creek]

it's made by wamo

[wintry marlin]

yeah I know wamo

he's in this server

maybe left

[craggy ridge]

is he?

[wintry marlin]

I've seen him talk here before

if you bother to look up messages with his name you could imagine why he left

on the topic of youtubers that fell off in my eyes that made me reconsider watching them -

His videos are just content farm but his twitter is just shit to me, so I no longer care.

I feel like noone is going to hold it to their neck that they majorly overhyped a promised tf2 update from a blog post but the ones who have to be careful with what they say have something to regain.
I am pretty certain they are doing exactly that by telling everyone to manage their expectations.

you're not going to assassinate fuckin, MediExcalibur2012 for saying that the update is second coming of christ

but you would if those two did it

While it is also a completely perfect stance to not make any video at all.

[crisp cedar]

who the fuck is rubbermango

i dont know any of these ppl

wheres king raja

wheres all the REAL tf2 youtubers what are these garbage knockoffs

[wintry marlin]

sorry, KrunchyNaut deleted all of his videos

Rydercycle hasn't posted in ages

LazyPurple is busy with another SFM

Tbh, considering this is the tf2 playerbase, the last thing those two want is another pile of gore in their email box.

You could perfectly argue with them, one on one, not like an attempt hasn't been made before.

But when majority just tell them to kill themselves it can jade anyone.

this aged like milk

[rare creek]

Why do you say that]

haven't random crits always been shit

[wintry marlin]

yes

honestly, the only thing we can't figure out is why valve insist on keeping them

[next nymph]

the bigger question is why do youtubers keep arguing for them

[small siren]

*the bigger question

is why do youtubers keep

arguing for them*

- JarateKing

[next nymph]

stockholm syndrome?

[hoary geyser]

🔫

[rare creek]

I love it when someone random crits me for the #132355'th time in casual where I otherwise would have lived

as medic where I barely do any random crits myself because 99% of the time I'm not attacking

very nice...

very fair...

[next nymph]

there are three scenarios:

• i get random critted when i wouldn't have died and feel shitty
• i get a random crit and kill someone when I wouldn't have and i feel robbed of a fair fight
• the random crit would've killed either way and it doesnt matter

the only situation where it's not actively bad is the situation where it does nothing

[craggy ridge]

This was my banner in my old gimmick account

[high current]

With YouTube removing the dislike button, releasing content for people to hate watch is arguably more effective than releasing good content, like this blatant “major update” overhyping or arguing for keeping random crits.

Though people were arguing for keeping random crits before that. I think they just have bad taste. Not even trying to undermine their opinion, arguments in favor of them are pretty much “it makes tryhards angry and that’s good for casuals”. As if tryhard soldier mains aren’t keeping their crit bucket full and landing crit rockets on the entire spawn room.

[wintry marlin]

like literally fr, it benefits tryhards the most

[cursive peak]

Even when there was a dislike button, it still counted as interaction in the algorithm.

[jaunty willow]

just replace random crits with random minicrits problem solved

[wintry marlin]

people also argue that valve aren't doing it because it will require them to rebalance like 100 weapons and change descriptions for each

[high current]

True. But now there’s just no downside to making hateable content

[jaunty willow]

imo ppl would hate less on random crits if it was minicrits

and if it wasn't so predictable as it is today

[high current]

Yeh those people have never played a no crit server, or used the “find and replace” function in a text editor.
Those changes could be made in 30 minutes TOPS.

[wintry marlin]

people that say it would nerf ubersaw are coping hard

[jaunty willow]

lmao

[high current]

People would hate on random mini crits less just because it’s a step in the right direction. It’d still be bad and pointless.

[jaunty willow]

but you see

with that move, you would satisfy more ppl

rather than having a 50% hate and 50% love thingie

it would be a 60+%ish love and 40%ish hate

you can't satisfy everyone

keep that in mind

[high current]

Do you? I think you just irritate everyone. Which is how compromise works sometimes, but I think in this case it would be less desirable.

[jaunty willow]

Then how would you takle the issue

[high current]

Because people in favor of random crits would have them taken from them. And people asking for them removed would be shown that there never was a technical limitation behind removing them, and that valve instead disregarded them.

[next nymph]

tbh even if it was just "no damage falloff" it'd still be pretty ridiculous

[high current]

I feel like as a game developer you just need to make decisive actions and go “this is our game, this is how it’s gonna be” sometimes.
If they want to remove random crits, do it. If they want to keep random crits make an announcement saying they’re here to stay in casual.

[jaunty willow]

but ppl would hate less imo

People made polls about it multiple times

[next nymph]

ah mean if you gotta balance a mechanic based on "how do i get people to hate this less" it sounds like you should just remove it

[high current]

Though adding an extra option to the random crit cvar, for random minicrits, that would be neat. I don’t think valve should use it, but giving community servers it would be cool.

[jaunty willow]

Another option would be to make it a Server wide vote, to turn off random crits, or to keep it on

[cursive peak]

Or just shut off random crits entirely and see if anyone notices.

[craggy ridge]

https://tenor.com/view/get-this-man-a-shield-get-this-man-a-true-morgan-freeman-morgan-freeman-true-gif-25958604

that would be cool

and funny

[jaunty willow]

You see i dont mind random crits getting removed

but look at it from the other side

[craggy ridge]

what side

[jaunty willow]

i actually would prefer them to be gone

[craggy ridge]

people who want them are wrong

I am right

[jaunty willow]

lmao

[craggy ridge]

if they want to play with their dogshit mechanics community servers could fill their needs

[next nymph]

i never really trust polls about it tbh. It feels like the two most loud sides are not equal in experience: one side is largely comp players who know exactly what it's like to play with or without random crits, because they do both regularly and know what its like in pubs. And then the other side has largely never played without random crits and just speculates what it may or may not be like without them

[jaunty willow]

yea

[high current]

Yeh tbh there’s not really a valid argument for keeping random crits. Only semi-valid one is “random crits are goofy and tf2 is a goofy game”, which isn’t a great argument.

[craggy ridge]

democracy is very flawed when people don't have enough time to discuss their ideas

[next nymph]

i think we should make tf2 goofier by making stickyspam much more powerful because it would be silly

stickyspam instakills because goofiness in a goofy game

this is a valid approach to deciding balance

[high current]

Polls in general are just pretty bad ways to get people’s opinion. People with strong opinions are more likely to respond, and therefor the people in the middle go unrepresented.
Also whoever is making the poll basically guarantees the outcome of it. Someone who uploads goofy pub content for pubbers: pubbers are going to respond. Competitive content creator: comp players are going to respond.

[high current]

Exactly. It’s an awful argument for keeping random crits but it isn’t the only one that is objectively proven false. It’s definitely subjectively disprovable, and I feel like most people would agree with your take.

[hybrid cloud]

it wouldn't solve anything

if you're pro crit you basically lost what makes them fun and silly

[small siren]

*if you're pro crit you

basically lost what makes

them fun and silly*

- Pathulhu

[hybrid cloud]

if you're anti crit you still have to deal with unreadable bonus damage

there used to be a vote to turn off or on

[jaunty willow]

random crits as far as melee goes, are very much predictable

[small siren]

*random crits as far

as melee goes, are very

much predictable*

- Wassy

[hybrid cloud]

wonder why they removed it

[left sand]

i wonder how ppl would feel about random crits if it was made clearer how it's connected to your current performance

[craggy ridge]

i would hate them more i think

[jaunty willow]

lmfao

that would be really intresting

[left sand]

like a meter or something

[cursive peak]

There are pro-random crit motherfuckers who think that the Kritzkrieg and other forced crits don't work on nocrit servers.

[high current]

Make every weapons the diamond back basically

[left sand]

no keep how it is rn

just show the damage buckets

[crisp cedar]

i think shounic did an experiment like that

[high current]

Didn’t shounic do a video similar to that?

[craggy ridge]

no

he didnt

[high current]

Oh yeh I suppose lol

[craggy ridge]

you are crazy

stop allucinating

please

wake up

he just showed that the crit bucket existed

[next nymph]

i dont really like that its connected to performance tbh. It feels like all the design goals are contradicting themselves because of it:

• on the one hand, it's great that it lets you keep some momentum going. But it also ends momentum early by being completely random
• on the other hand, it's great that it offers new players a chance to kill stronger players. But stronger players are more likely to get random crits, especially after already being in fights (and probably having taken some damage) so I'd wager you end up saving skilled players from fights they would've lost more often than not

[left sand]

he showed if you are due to have one, you get a crit boost

[craggy ridge]

but he never did an experiemnt like that

[hybrid cloud]

it's just the same thing as people who think turning off random spread would make the pistol a laser

[craggy ridge]

yeah he did that

[hybrid cloud]

they don't really know how settings work

[craggy ridge]

maybe you are going crazy peaches maybe you should raise rent on single mothers

just saying

[left sand]

i think random crits should be reworked but should stay

[next nymph]

and as an (imo) moderately skilled player both feel kinda cheap and not great

[high current]

So you’re suggesting that keep the opponent in the dark about random crits, but show like a charge meter for the user for their next random crit?

It’d be an interesting change, but I feel like getting random crit would feel more like a personal “f you” then.

[cursive peak]

That's how it works right now anyway. Just without the visual part.

[small siren]

*That's how it works right

now anyway. Just without

the visual part.*

- Steamworks

[left sand]

i dont know exactly what, but something that allows the player to better understand how crit chance is affected by damage and be able to telegraph their current crit chance

unfortunately killstreak eyes are already a thing

[cursive peak]

Imagine how pissed people would get when they don't get a random crit at peak charge.

[high current]

So something like smash? Where the damage number isn’t that you’re guaranteed to be ko’ed but it’s the likelihood you’ll get ko’ed kinda

[left sand]

i think being able to see a number that goes up and down as you do more or less damage would help players better understand how the crit system works

[next nymph]

im not convinced by arguments that randomness shouldnt exist in competitive games. I mean, it does in a lot and thats okay. But:

• tf2 already has agential randomness in the form of random variance in aiming (though based on skill)
• random crits are purely output randomness in effect. Nobody really plans around having random crits because the chances are just too unreliable for fights that usually last a couple seconds at most
• and as output randomness its impact is absolutely huge. For some classes it means instakilling everyone it hits. By being so high impact it takes emphasis away from other (imo better) aspects of the game when it comes into play

[left sand]

i think though, the current crit system doesn't work in the current state of the game

[high current]

There is (disabled) code for a dps meter on the hud somewhere isn’t there? So this would be pretty straightforward to implement

[left sand]

i don't think randomness introduced by players is sufficient in any game

[hybrid cloud]

i enabled the dps meter

it's shit

[left sand]

besides like chess

[hybrid cloud]

counts like 400 dps after a pistol shot

[cursive peak]

When you're attempting to measure skill, why would you want random elements involved?

[left sand]

but i don't want tf2 to be like chess

[hybrid cloud]

to see how people adapt to them

still don't think random crits are the best idea

[high current]

I think it also has an averaging period you can adjust. Idk if the meter was ever finished though.

[hybrid cloud]

it probably was never finished, it looks really basic

[next nymph]

i dont really agree with this. Lots of great competitive games have randomness but a lot dont, or at least not to any significant extent. Agential randomness is more than fine in my book, especially for things like aiming that are so unreliable even at the highest level of performance

[left sand]

randomness in this case is providing the ability to introduce much more fun, impactful mechanics. without some sort of limiting factor, a lot of impactful mechanics can feel unfun

[high current]

It’d be awesome if they added it as a material proxy though. Being able to have the scoreboard display dpm would be so cool.

[left sand]

idk, i feel like this stance is extremely destructive to any game's health because it's a catch-all argument

[cursive peak]

Let's add a random shotgun to boxing.

With only one shell loaded.

[next nymph]

well i will be frank, ive never played tf2 and thought "the issue is that we need to de-emphasize aiming and emphasize other mechanics"

not to mention that most other mechanics that dont involve aim as much, like say engie buildings or pyro flamethrowers, are much less impacted by random crits than say soldier aiming

[left sand]

idk, it just feels very deconstructive. those sorts of arguments are like saying every game should be ratz instagib or something

[next nymph]

obviously not, but id rather ratz instagib than candyland

[hybrid cloud]

i feel that tf2 has enough variety in its gameplay that it wouldn't really need random crits

[left sand]

and you're right jarateking, that random crits don't suite a lot of use cases

[hybrid cloud]

they're there to prevent stalemates by keeping the ball rolling and making better players win even harder, i think

[cursive peak]

If you're gonna keep random crits, there's no reason the Sentry should be exempt.

[left sand]

personally, it's a hard problem. overwatch introduced ults, and tf2 also kind of introduced the concept of ults over its lifespan, in addition to the initial one being uber.

[crisp cedar]

i think randomness in competitive games are fine

because randomness is a ton of things

theres good and bad randomness

[left sand]

but the problem with ults is that theres too much player agency in that they can be tactically reserved to stall out the game

[crisp cedar]

good randomness is variety of different encounters and outcomes that can happen

its how you respond to randomness

basically what im trying to say is

randomness is cool if its fun

[hybrid cloud]

you can't really respond to random crits

they just happen

[crisp cedar]

randomness in the form of critical hits dont feel fun to me because they add nothing other than make 4 people mad and make 1 person feel really good

[hybrid cloud]

they're also super wack for class balance

[crisp cedar]

yeah

thats the thing

[left sand]

so do i know a perfect solution to this problem? no not really, it seems like these pacing mechanics always have imperfections

[next nymph]

yeah like I get yeah in general: csgo and dota are both much more seriously competitive than tf2 and both have a fair share of randomness, random mechanics are useful for game design and are not necessarily bad like a lot of the discussion around random crits seems to imply.

But i think random crits are about the exact opposite example of how to do random mechanics right

[crisp cedar]

you dont respond to random crits you die to random crits

[left sand]

i always feel super good when the enemy juggernaut gets double damage rune and kills our entire team with omnislash

[crisp cedar]

randomness is unavoidable because its everywhere especially in a game that lets you move in a 3d space where aim is a variable that also can decide whether youre successful or not

[crisp cedar]

skill issue

[left sand]

good randomness isn't defined by zero sum games like that imo

[crisp cedar]

your supports didnt place enough wards

[left sand]

i feel like people are articulating the wrong thing

[crisp cedar]

basically i dont feel like random crits are fun because its not like

[small siren]

*basically i dont

feel like random crits are fun

because its not like*

- rayne

[crisp cedar]

"oh shit that guy random critted how do i respond to this"

[next nymph]

i do think theres a good argument in that input randomness feels a whole lot better in a pvp fps than output randomness. But i dont think random crits would be fixed by just making them into input randomness somehow

[crisp cedar]

its always "oh shit that guy random critted. im dead"

[hybrid cloud]

-heavy is either torn down or lasers you across the map
-soldier and demo have team wide nukes
-close range classes get fucked
-classes weak at close range get away with things they shouldn't have without more effort or planning

[left sand]

https://youtu.be/0bZxXrn5Bdw?t=2544

[crisp cedar]

not random

bad comparison!

[hybrid cloud]

there can be good randomness in games but tf2 i don't think should be like dota

[crisp cedar]

ok

ok

[next nymph]

and obviously theres more to it than that and output randomness is big in, say, csgo. But they are extremely careful to play and design around that randomness in a way that I'd argue is fundamentally impossible for random crits

[crisp cedar]

how about

[left sand]

random rune spot random rune

[crisp cedar]

we make tf2 more like dota instead

instead of "no random critical hits" as a stat

we make "allows random critical hits" as a stat

[left sand]

idk, i feel like the abject failure of pure shooter games shows that this concept and feeling is completely flawed

[hybrid cloud]

tf2 is already not a pure shooter whatever that means

[left sand]

people keep asking for an arena shooter, a pure skill arena shooter. and every time, it may spike in popularity sometimes but it always dies out pretty fast

[crisp cedar]

i dont really have anything to say about random crits other than its just not fun to be on the other side of a crit rocket

[heavy solar]

@crisp cedar has leveled up! (32 ➜ 33)

[crisp cedar]

i mean

ppl dont play tf2 for the random crits

do they

[left sand]

precisely because of this egotistical notion about player skill being a driving factor to fun

[next nymph]

tbh i think whether or not there are random mechanics are the least of arena fps' problems

[left sand]

yes it is a factor, and one of the main factors

[hybrid cloud]

the audience for it is always old dudes who want quake 3: 2

[left sand]

im not talking about random mechanics

[hybrid cloud]

and when it isn't it dies

[left sand]

im talking about this philosophy in general that you're using to argue against random crits

in that, player skill is random enough or something, that we should give players complete agency

and no, i dont think that is true, i think the game providing adversity beyond direct player input is very good and healthy for the game

yes, there's some winners and losers (like this liquid v newbee game where liquid literally made millions of dollars because the rune spawned right next to their carry and it was a double damage rune)

and sometimes that will feel unfair

[next nymph]

yeah i cant really argue with that, i think ive said as much myself. But i'll bring it back to random crits when I say that I dont think they're the answer and I don't think any amount of tweaking will get them there

[left sand]

but i dont think on the whole, that the variety is unhealthy

[crisp cedar]

dont get me wrong

i like variety and randomness in videogames

[left sand]

@next nymph did you ever see my point above

i feel like i sent too many messsages

[crisp cedar]

im trash at tf2 and really my opinion is just based on how i feel about things

[left sand]

i think this should be topic of discussion, i feel like random crits or not is such a bad discussion topic

when the discussion should really about pacing mechanics in games

[small siren]

*when the discussion

should really about pacing

mechanics in games*

- mcoms

[kind falcon]

im fine with crits when they cant be manipulated

[crisp cedar]

i think tf2 provides enough variables for it to be interesting

[jaunty willow]

I stay on my point, with lowering the impact on random crits may make it less painfull to other players (as in turning it into minicrits)

[crisp cedar]

health pickups being used by someone else and them needing to respawn for example

thats a variable that you need to adapt to

someone else picking it up means youre out of a fight for longer

[hybrid cloud]

i like pacing mechanics like singular sentry guns unconsciously forcing coordination and the ubercharge

i do not like things that i have little input on and that make the game too slow

[crisp cedar]

it being impossible to tell what class/weapon is being used or switched to by the enemy until they show it

[left sand]

the core constraints IMO in any FPS balance, which makes designing for FPS's hard, is:

1. Sightlines
2. Telegraphing mechanics

[crisp cedar]

general player positioning, knowing whether med has uber or not

[left sand]

i think this make FPS's special vs. any other game. and why it is so hard to design an appropriate pacing mechanic in an FPS

[hybrid cloud]

tf2 is already not a pure shooter it seems considering the weapon variety and class selection

[crisp cedar]

i think theres enough variety without random crits needing to be a thing

either way

[left sand]

of course, other genres have their own challenges, I'm not saying FPS design is harder, but these are the specific constraints which make FPS's hard in specificity

[crisp cedar]

feels moot to discuss this

i already play on uncletopia!

[kind falcon]

we need to delete hitscan weapons . and make projecitles random .

[crisp cedar]

what is hitscan...

[next nymph]

like rockets and stuff

[left sand]

in a top down game like Dota, adding mechanics is relatively easy. There is unit control. There is much better display of the battlefield. So adding status effects, buffs, new mechanics, are very easy

[kind falcon]

idk it like .. scans somethging

[crisp cedar]

(i use the gunboats i dont know what hitscan is)

[craggy ridge]

In tf2 specifically, ubercharges already exist

[left sand]

Ubercharge being the only ult in the game has been bad for the game's health, which is why Valve introduced so many ult weapons

[next nymph]

a big issue of ubers is that you can defend with them easier than you can push with them

[left sand]

in FPS games

people articulate this problem all the time

with overwatch

that it is unreadable

and I'd agree

I don't want TF2 to become a mess of particle effects trying to show each characters status

[craggy ridge]

really?

in my experience uber trades are usually very 50/50 in coordinated games

[left sand]

Yes especially since Uber can defend but not cap

[craggy ridge]

and in non coordinated games the attacking team generally has the advantage

[kind falcon]

this thread should blow up

[left sand]

but people can park the bus, and it's easier with an uber

it's not like you won't ever get uber if you're in a defensive position

[next nymph]

it is just generally easier to receive an attacker than be an attacker, since you can make sure you have positional advantage and don't have to make risky moves that are biased to hurt more often than help

[left sand]

anyways, going back to an earlier point, I feel like ults are a cool pacing mechanic, but due to the player agency provided, players will typically tend to be more defensive than offensive with them

and thus you get stalemates

which is what you can see in overwatch, where you dont really see ults as a "press to win" mechanic but really a "press to prevent the other team from making a comebaack"

[next nymph]

make ubers "use it or lose it" so you cant just sit on it

[craggy ridge]

but attackers just generally have more uber advantage

[left sand]

yes exactly

thats what i was getting at

[craggy ridge]

because they are being spammed more often and you know the drill

[next nymph]

boston basher

[crisp cedar]

that sounds really interesting

id love to see that

[left sand]

and yes, i do think random crits is an attempt at a pacing/ult mechanic. but one that does not give the player agency

[crisp cedar]

forces you to do a push

[left sand]

i think use it or lose it ults would be a step in the right direction

because then there is a mix of player agency but also urgency

[crisp cedar]

ubercharge is now unstable and automatically activates after 10 seconds

or something like that

[next nymph]

to bring it back to random crits, my experience is that because of racking up damage and the fact that its safer to fight by staying in a good position, it too generally benefits the defender more than the attacker. Not exactly because its random and can push it in either way, but more often than not pushes things towards intentionally stalemating

[hybrid cloud]

tf2 in general favors defenders

[next nymph]

i do get where the "show players their crit chance" comes in now though

[left sand]

what if you had a crit meter. which would increase slowly over time. like 1.25% or 0.75% every second. and then dealing damage would increase it by some unit amount. when you get to 100%, you become crit boosted for 2 seconds. firing a shot will consume the crit boost (or last the duration for rapid fire weapons)

it would be a lightning bolt next to your class model

[crisp cedar]

i dont feel like thatd be great but maybe thats just me

[left sand]

eh, the stats and general collection mechanics are up in the air

[next nymph]

i would probably still use it to mostly just defend tbh. Maybe peek my head out a little bit for the crit boost but not actually push and instead just go back immediately after

[left sand]

but just crit meter, temp crit

[crisp cedar]

medigun that boosts your crit meter gain

[next nymph]

i think its tough to deal with getting charge by dealing damage, and dealing damage being much more reliable if you're defending

[left sand]

idk, do you have stats on that?

like blu vs red damage stats

or is it intuition

[next nymph]

this is just my experience playing

[crisp cedar]

i mean a/d is kinda

like

[left sand]

but is it just your feeling

[crisp cedar]

blu throws themselves at red

until they dont die

and cap

[hybrid cloud]

my issue with uber that's active as soon as a meter is filled is like, i think that players will just hold off healing players lest they ult too early

[left sand]

or is it rooted in measuring damage stats over time

[hybrid cloud]

and then they miss out on important healing and it leaves people worse for wear

[next nymph]

i cant say it as fact, but like, this is my experience and it makes sense in terms of "you win more fights with better positioning"

[left sand]

idk anyone said as soon as theres charge

[left sand]

but that suggests that Blu always has to win with poor positioning, which imo is only true for like the first 1 or 2 minutes and then blu turns the tide because red team is out of the game for longer when they die

so i think it evens out

[hybrid cloud]

well even with 10 seconds before activation

[next nymph]

like if all we're doing here is theorycrafting then I'll offer my theorycrafting, im not gonna pretend its statistically verified fact but nobody's offering it

[left sand]

as far as the data ive seen, it's been even

[next nymph]

not always true of course, just biased in that direction

[left sand]

but i did not sample lots of real games

[next nymph]

do you mean data on fights won or on games won? Because im talking about fights won and wager thats the more relevant figure

[left sand]

on damage dealt on both sides

[grim parcel]

vac should be removed too /s

[left sand]

but heres some theorycrafting to make it seem like it makes sense

[left sand]

blu has faster respawn times, which yes, means more bodies for red to shoot from advantageous positions

but it also means that red team will have less people shooting as they die

[grim parcel]

damn it i was going to respond with that to an older message for optimal funny

[left sand]

and then blu can get into advantageous, aggressive positions to keep their momentum

[kind falcon]

kanye would be good but boar is too good

[left sand]

so i would say that it can even out feasibly

and in the matches ive anecdotally looked at, this has remained true

[kind falcon]

how do you like this

[left sand]

i dont think I've analyzed enough matches to be statistically significant

now, if youre saying stuff about how likely it is to fire an effective crit, i cant answer that

[next nymph]

i mean like i get ya, but isnt the whole idea of trying to introduce mechanics to push pacing away from stalemates like in the current meta, kinda proof that things are biased in favor of stalemating?

[left sand]

all i know is that from the data ive seen, teams should have equal chance

[small siren]

*all i know is that

from the data ive seen, teams

should have equal chance*

- mcoms

[left sand]

no i dont think stalemating is a huge problem in normal TF2

im just being aggressive about it for the health of the game

and analyzing the ways stalemates can occur

[kind falcon]

powerhouse is. Very good

[grim parcel]

smile :)

[next nymph]

i dint think its a huge problem in normal tf2 (your average pub) because 90% of players dont care and will do pushes because they want to or dont have the gamesense to know that they probably shouldnt be pushing right now if they want to do more to win the game. I dont think a mechanic to fix stalemates should be based around the one place that stalemates dont really occur in the same way (except for certain maps that push hard for it)

[crisp cedar]

honestly ive never encountered stalemates anywhere other than like

ctf

but i guess that might be a bias of mine

[jaunty willow]

or powerhouse

but powerhouse is one that i really like

i expect to get 2hour matches that don't end in 5 minutes

[kind falcon]

for no particular reason

[crisp cedar]

pd_powerhouse

[small siren]

*i expect to get

2hour matches that don't

end in 5 minutes*

- Wassy

[kind falcon]

its just powerhous magik

[jaunty willow]

and i was serious about this

[wintry marlin]

I like this tbh

[wintry marlin]

this reminds me of my rhythm arena fps that rewards players with quad damage for being on beat 4 times in a row.

[potent wolf]

that was one hell of a life

[hoary geyser]

lenin a hand

[potent wolf]

lol

[wintry marlin]

https://youtu.be/scKPlOxxNiI

back we are.

[summer steeple]

delfy moment

[potent wolf]

as expected

[grim parcel]

le epic troll

[potent wolf]

so cool, so epic

[grim parcel]

ah wait i've seen this already in game

i think it was on 2fort

[paper sluice]

another phlog L

[potent wolf]

no, another delfy L

[potent wolf]

I love how you can complete the direct hit contract bonus without the direct hit

[summer steeple]

figured out how to spawn revive markers with vscript

I can revive myself

also did i fuck something up or is reviving actually supposed to give 5 points wtf

[radiant merlin]

mf opened the door and we insta killed them

[next nymph]

what happens when you do

[summer steeple]

it respawns me where the marker is, but doesn't delete it

it also doesn't reset the health on the revive marker, so i just have to heal for like a fraction of a second to insta-respawn again lol

ooh nice, I realized that i tested specifically in an MVM map just incase the MVM logic would affect it, and was worried that it would break outside of that

but i tested in itemtest and it works perfectly

hm there is one issue, it doesn't show the right class, it always shows scout

ahh i see why, valve has a SetOwner function which also sets what class to show, whereas I go straight to the netprop for the owner and set that

weird thing tho, it sets the team and the angles of the revive marker in that function, even though they already set the team afterwards and set the angles when they spawned the entity in the first place

[summer steeple]

thats the whole comment

[rare creek]

https://gamebanana.com/sounds/65731

it works in casual

[mystic turtle]

that's because sound/vo is whitelisted

it's the reason why the sv_pure soundscript works really well

[rare creek]

15.ai is funny

[wintry marlin]

After careful consideration, I realized that my map fever dream should be 2 separate maps.

one about castle, one about being above water.

And I'm thinking about changing the latter to attack/defense.

HOLY SHIT BETTER THUMBNAILS

[mystic turtle]

lmao

the only thing is that bodyshots are way better than you'd think

also, I think I now understand why I suck at sniper

100 ping allows people with less latency to get the jump on me and shoot my head off before I even have my crosshair on them

and sure, it allows me to get some absurd shots, but that weakness alone just doesn't help, like, a lot

[wintry marlin]

I feel like if you have stable 100 ping with no drops, it doesn't matter.
tf2's compensation is good, all the ping means is that all hits register with a .1 second delay, that's it.

and it doesn't change what you see on screen.

what makes it funny is when other people get killed by you because it looks like you're shooting through walls.

I guess I suppose people get a jump on you, but the game can accurately predict where players are going to be before they even know where they are going.

[mystic turtle]

yeah
I do remember getting funny bodyshots from behind walls

and then, of course, I forgot to mention my main bottleneck, which is that I miss too many shots
idk, it's just that it's a bit awkward
maybe I just need practice

[kind falcon]

having 100 ping allows you to do the same

double edged sword

[mystic turtle]

true
lord knows how many funny machina bodyshots I've gotten from behind walls on 2fort

but my greatest shot ever was when I shot a rocket jumping soldier with the L' Etranger on a 100% crit server and killed him

[crisp cedar]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdSwVa1O2Sg

all i know about tf2c is that it has an identity crisis and that it's the host for the most perverse things imaginable by the tf2 community

none of these people know how to balance weapons nor how to make good weapons

this is just a shittier kunai

this entire channel

is just so perverse

never trust tf2 fans to balance shit

let alone add new weapons

[kind falcon]

let dota fans balance shit!

[crisp cedar]

precisely

[wintry marlin]

I feel this in my core

modders aren't necessarily the wisest, just the boldest

[mystic turtle]

So true
the TF2C new-old weapons pack has a few of these terrible weapons
They nerfed the black box so it gave you 20 less hp for no reason (the reduced clip is enough imo)
and they made the black rose into an even shittier kunai
It literally punishes you with health drain for having it out
and all it gives you is 25 hp on kill
like wtf

I know the kunai is jank as is, but I don't think a weapon that punishes you for having it out should be used

[crisp cedar]

what why would u give the black rose stats

[slender nexus]

to screw over the few people who earned it

[wintry marlin]

my attack/defense map layout is drawn, but considering that one of its objectives involves attacking a fortress, I can't decide if the theme should be Louisiana, Aztec or Japan.

[left sand]

yeah it does

[wintry marlin]

I am just making a weirder gorge

well, not exactly gorge, just that it goes from outdoors to indoors