For something they see as not important
#development
whole quail
obtuse stump
Security experts are not on board as well as far as I know.
whole quail
Because they aren't researching and exploiting vulnerabilities all the time
security experts barely agree lol
And who even qualifies for that
obtuse stump
I consider people like Bruce Schneier an expert.
obtuse stump
whole quail
@dapper laurel yeah
Those are all the people who don't actively work hands on with this stuff
obtuse stump
Handling and storing password should IMO be as few steps and as simple as possible. Each step introduces new potential for bugs.
whole quail
@dapper laurel I'm not atm but I have done in the past many times but do sec research mostly atm
obtuse stump
send to back end over https, put server seed + user seed + password and hash, store.
I would not overcomplicate things.
whole quail
That's literally the developer mentality approach
whole quail
It's not the secure approach
You can't be completely secure but when there are steps to remove insecurities you should take them
obtuse stump
Here we have to agree to disagree I guess.
whole quail
Unless they're going to cause large issues you definitely should take them
Simpler algorithms yeah, but hashing is something that is well documented and previously done
obtuse stump
It's the same when some people think they are smart and create a new encryption algorithm because oldones "are not secure enough" only to find out that their solution is easily broken in a way they did not foresee.
whole quail
But how could this break security???
At worst you use a terrible hash and yet it's still more secure that it was before
obtuse stump
Well, for example. Everyone starts to hash on client side. Someone makes a npm package to handle this. Everyone includes that npm package because it is easier. Now someone writes chrome extension that steals passwords before hashing because everyone uses the same package.
One scenario where it would be bad for security.
whole quail
Who would you rather be when there's another cloudflare bug that exposes user data? The people who can tell their users that their passwords are mostly fine or the people who have to say they aren't safe
@obtuse stump that's just stupid developers
obtuse stump
Maybe. But the end result is the same.
whole quail
But what stops someone making a chrome extension to steal passwords anyway
Literally search for inputs with a keyword pass or password somewhere in there
You can do heaps of different things
proper gale
literally nothing, its called a keylogger.
obtuse stump
It was just a scenario that I came up from the top of my head. The main reason noone (almost) hashes passwords on the front end is that there is little to no benefit.
whole quail
Except there is a benifit
You stop a whole range of exploits
From stealing user data
obtuse stump
Would be interesting to know if google for example hashes on the frontside.
whole quail
For certain things they do, for certain things they don't
proper gale
granted you are doing a SSL connection, does it matter?
obtuse stump
Imo it does not.
whole quail
It's a layer of security to prevent users passwords being leaked by many different vulnerabilities
proper gale
imo or Lmo?
obtuse stump
imo ๐
whole quail
By preventing the users password from never leaving their client you can prevent it being leaked due to vulnerabilities on your end
Which there are a lot of
proper gale
but you have better control over the code server side.
proper gale
personally, i would use a special rotating double hash method.
obtuse stump
Google does not hash before sending password over https. Looked it up.
whole quail
It does for certain things, doesn't for others
proper gale
where the password is at its most vunerable when you set it.
obtuse stump
It does not hash google account password on login.
whole quail
It's not one thing for everything
There's a bunch of different things both google and facebook do
Which I know because I've tracked
obtuse stump
I am talking about Google account password atm.
Not anything else.
This is what we were talking about, account passwords, yes? ๐
obtuse stump
Facebook does not hash password on login page as well.
whole quail
They literally have no clientside anti cheat
proper gale
thats beacuse EA pulled bullshit with DLC
whole quail
I mean you can literally write to the games values
Nothing is protected
You can inject whatever
No sig detection
They have a tiny bit of anti debug and that's it
proper gale
thats almost a good thing
if their server-size anticheat works good enough, then modders (they dont hack anything) are unsure of what the code is doing.
whole quail
Depends on what they're doing
There's a lot of re involved
Sometimes a lot of patching
whole quail
Depends who
proper gale
the people know what they are doing, just not what the srver is doing.
whole quail
The people reversing the game or the people who just copy sigs and offsets and make cheats like that
For games like csgo you literally don't need to do any reversing
Everything is just online
And you read memory and react to it how you want
Or very rarely write memory
Unless you are trying to bypass ESEA
That gets a bit more complicated but still straightforward
@proper gale the chams have already been reversed as well (not gonna link here tho) and most of the games structures have
proper gale
client or server?
whole quail
Client
proper gale
doesnt matter
proper gale
what the client does, does not matter.
whole quail
By writting chams
proper gale
if the server can properly ban for cheating, then all is well.
whole quail
But it can't detect wallhacks
It only detects rage hacking
It doesn't detect aimbots or wallhacks or a bunch of other stuff
small escarp
@whole quail on the password client hash, note that the only thing you are protecting with clientside is the cleartext. Even if you hash in the client, if an adversary can get access to client (xss, etc.), they get the hash, which is enough to prove to the server you are the impersonated person, so you still get full access. The only way to really protect from that would be to include an interactive proof system, i.e. you would need to reimplement TLS all over again in javascript.
jolly pelican
What kind of development belongs here?
small escarp
- if someone has access to client, they can probably access raw input values anyway
all the development
jolly pelican
just wondering because I do some game-dev type stuff involving 3D work as well as programming
loud portal
@jolly pelican what gaem eng?
loud portal
LOL... you said game-dev type stuff just thought... LOL
whole quail
@small escarp again, not even talking about that. Talking about leaking passwords through memory which is becoming very common.
obtuse stump
"Very common" is a gross overstatement. I stand by my argument that if it is a real problem, Google, Facebook etc would also hash passwords before sending them over HTTPS POST. But they do not, so likely this is not a common problem at all.
whole quail
I mean it's far less of a problem for Facebook and Google or anyone who runs custom everything including hardware configurations
gritty rain
You two, what is your experince in the info sec sector?
obtuse stump
Specifically infosec - some courses and trainings, day-to-day I work as a software engineer.
static latch
Hashing on the client wouldn't help though... if someone could somehow obtain the password hash by exploiting a vulnerability that leaked memory (which can happen in specific vulnerabilities, I wouldn't call exploitation of that in the wild "very common") they could still obtain access to the account by sending that hash they've obtained rather than the password itself... it doesn't really change anything
nocturne galleon
@bright olive <insert developy talk here>
whole quail
@static latch about access to the password not access to the account
small escarp
@whole quail if memory leaks is what worries, that's even worse. You need the cleartext password in memory forever for UI reasons. The moment you lose it, the user can't edit the password anymore (e.g. use backspace). After sending the password to the server, it is never used again because you get the random hash session cookie. No website ever holds the password in memory longer than the login page.
whole quail
@small escarp that's assuming the server writes over the old memory
small escarp
??.... we are talking about the client
whole quail
No server
static latch
it's about either in the example being proposed. the password protects to the account... if an attacker can compromise an account why would they care whether they know they password the user originally set or not? the point is to figure out what to tell the server to let you access the account... normally thats the password, but if that's some hash derived from the password then you just compromise that. Hashing the password client-side before sending does not protect you from an eavesdrop-and-replay attack,
Essentially, it's a lot of work for zero gain. And I'd argue there's a case for the fact that it might lead people to a false sense of security, with site developers perhaps being less careful with this sensitive information since it seems more secure but is in fact no better than a normal password - in fact you must secure it just as you would a plaintext password. But now you've also added the complexity of hashing on the client, which would mean storing a separate client_salt on the server so the user can access your service from multiple browsers and sending them that salt so they can do their client-side hash... this is a lot of work for something that won't help you because whatever the client generates is now the password.
Long story short, rule #1 of crypto is don't roll your own crypto. Research industry best practices and do that.
keen nymph
Take a look at my website: http://vegardsteinnes.co.nf
The about page says forbidden for some reason....
carmine relic
seems like your htaccess is blocking about.html?
keen nymph
English? I'm kinda new to web development
carmine relic
Apache reads a special file named .htaccess when it reads a file in the same directory; this file specifies certain settings for the page, such as whether to allow requests outright, to require passwords, and to set error handling documents (e.g. redirect 404s to a /404.html page)
It looks like you may have a htaccess which denies access to about.html
dawn geyser
indeed, .htaccess or file permissions would be my starting points to look at.
keen nymph
Fixed it. Its a free service I use for webhosting that filters out common phrases found when their sevices are abused, so the link to my steam profile was detected and they restricted access to it.
whole quail
@static latch I mean you literally just ignored my point completely
Like most people here
carmine relic
huh?
obtuse stump
@whole quail , I just disagree with your point ๐
proper saddle
If you want ot torture yourself? ๐ https://www.humblebundle.com/books/java-books
coral flame
What is your guy's opinion of kotlin?
bright olive
what language sohuld jake start with
zealous tangle
the lead backend dev decided to leave for a self driving car company. I don't have much confidence for the rest of the team. T_T
bright olive
ripperoni
daring anchor
rip
zealous tangle
So, my coworker calls golang a blub language. nothing really exciting about writing in it. very straightforward and wordy, and easy to collaborate on.
daring anchor
but golang is easy to learn, fast, fast compile times etc
zealous tangle
exactly.
zealous tangle
nonono
daring anchor
backand servers
daring anchor
but can do lots of things
zealous tangle
man golang is incredibly versatile.
daring anchor
just not a lot of GUI librarys yet
coral flame
Start with Fortran 
daring anchor
start with assambly
bright olive
i think i wanna learn node
zealous tangle
twitch's entire metrics pipeline ingestion is written across 4-5 go services. atleast as of a year and a half ago.
daring anchor
netflix uses go
coral flame
What's your objective?
daring anchor
dropbox etc
zealous tangle
discord is written in elixr/erlang which is neat.
zealous tangle
one of those pure functional lanugages. elixr is the web framework for erlang.
coral flame
Arnold c :)
zealous tangle
like how rails is the MVC framework for ruby.
zealous tangle
haskell, erlang, etc. once you understand it, your mind undergoes a fundamental paradigm shift.
esp out of OOP
zealous tangle
especially*
zealous tangle
I'll be honest. if you want to lean how to code, start with python. it's simple. syntactic pseudo code. lots of bumpers. then try java and get used to it's wordyness. then golang for it's multi-threaded primitives like goroutines and channels. and then C++ if you want to go native, tc.
daring anchor
dont try java
proper saddle
C# Master Race! ๐
daring anchor
its way to complecated
daring anchor
idd
and after you're dont with python forget about it.
just know how to write in it and never use it again
C is chalanging to write a programm in, so use that if you're in for one
obtuse stump
"ts still java like
but at least its a bit bettr"
I reject this notion that Java is some evil bad language -.-
coral flame
Kotlin or Scala is better than Java
daring anchor
I think kitlin is cool, its just to much like java
coral flame
Java is trying to become functional
obtuse stump
It has added functional elements, yeah.
daring anchor
but it actually sucks pretty damn hard at everything
obtuse stump
Hard to argue against that logic.
obtuse stump
I dislike blanket statements, is all.
coral flame
Code in Skala: fork of Dotty but in German
proper saddle
I'm too awful to not use anything that's lower level that C# and JS. >:[
proper saddle
Pseudo code? ๐
daring anchor
your thoughts
obtuse stump
If you want to go functional, go all the way, why stop at scala ๐
zealous tangle
most good java folks self select into scala or kotlin. but it takes time to understand the magic of the JVM in java before you can appreciate languages like scala and kotlin IMO
whole quail
@bright olive if you are learning and want to be able to use the tool you've learnt for a bunch of different stuff just learn python
proper saddle
daring anchor
yep
whole quail
It's easy to learn, let's you do a lot and will let you experiment with a lot of different ideas in programming
When you first start learning don't worry about what you are using the language for (to a certain extent)
whole quail
Python fanboys aren't that bad
zealous tangle
meh. if you learn with the intention of understanding good programming style and structure, along with datastructures and algorithms, you tend to pick up languages pretty fast.
obtuse stump
I hate that whitespace matters, just hate it.
whole quail
Same
daring anchor
also true
zealous tangle
then you spend time learning the intricacies and gotchas of a language. I feel comfortable writing production code in a language I've never seen before in about a month
obtuse stump
I dont know, I still do not feel comfortable with JS ๐
carmine relic
oooh, are we telling people what language to learn?
whole quail
It's been a long time since I first started learning to program so I've forgotten a lot of what I did
obtuse stump
rest of the languages are okay ๐
proper saddle
Not only does whitespace matter, but you also can't mix indenting or the inturpreter will yell at you.
carmine relic
C# is the best language :^)
whole quail
C# was my second/third language depending on whether you count BASIC
carmine relic
I heard somebody mention Erlang earlier, and while Erlang is cool, you probably want to learn Elixir instead
carmine relic
Elixir runs on the same VM as Erlang, but is more like a classical programming language
So it's easier to learn
whole quail
Don't learn C
coral flame
10 print "learn python"
20 goto 10
daring anchor
and no strings
carmine relic
C is always fun, but it's becoming less and less useful as time goes on
daring anchor
yeah
whole quail
You need to learn too mcuh comp science and you don't get much out of it
obtuse stump
if you need to program atmega32, then you C
daring anchor
but if you want to learn how to code its a nice language for a chalange
carmine relic
I would suggest C++ but I'm sure some people would cry if I suggested it ๐
obtuse stump
its horrible as first language
proper saddle
C++ seems too daunting. ๐
daring anchor
dont C++
carmine relic
It really isn't
daring anchor
c>C++
whole quail
@carmine relic if the person has a comp science background and good idea about structure it's actually a good start
proper saddle
Wait, nobody has suggested ASM yet!
coral flame
matlab ๐
carmine relic
The only reason C++ seems daunting is because there's a lot of bad advice out there
daring anchor
I have actually
carmine relic
And a lot of outdated stuff
whole quail
And the standard libraries for C++ SUCK SO BAD
proper saddle
I didn't see that. ๐
zealous tangle
yes matlab. lets start indexing at 1 like savages.
carmine relic
Nah, the C++ stdlib is actually really good
daring anchor
its like 10 pages up
daring anchor
go has a better one
proper saddle
Lua also indexes at 1.
carmine relic
You have to use a modern C++ standard though, like C++14
daring anchor
go learn brainfuck
obtuse stump
So many people will get stuck with pointers and not learn programming. Sure its important to understand pointers eventually, just not immediately.
carmine relic
Lua? That's a great language to learn for a beginner, too.
whole quail
@carmine relic it's actually really slow and a giant mess xd
obtuse stump
pointers and pointers of pointers of pointers
whole quail
I learnt Lua accidentally when I was 10
whole quail
If you have trouble understanding pointers you either learnt wrong or can't program
carmine relic
@whole quail The C++ stdlib is actually really fast. The only reason people think it's slow is because they're using it wrong.
daring anchor
haha
carmine relic
Which again, bad documentation and examples
whole quail
@carmine relic it's really slow compared to custom solutions
carmine relic
That's because Go is designed to be extremely concurrent ๐
daring anchor
hmmmmmm
carmine relic
@whole quail It really isn't ๐
proper saddle
What about Visual C++? ๐ค
daring anchor
what about C--++--=+# visual
carmine relic
I promise you an unordered_map that I write will be a lot slower than std::unordered_map
obtuse stump
VBA is the best, no question.
zealous tangle
welll the advantage is that go provides pretty much failsafe concurrency primitives fi you know how to set up things like thread/go-routine pools and know how to set up your channels appropriately for safe shutdown.
carmine relic
@proper saddle Visual C++ is absolutely horrible
whole quail
@carmine relic I know someone who using their own standard library only, everything he does is at least 3-15x faster than the standard alternative
proper saddle
xd
carmine relic
It's like a mish-mash of C++98, C++11 and C++14 with no real idea of where it is
whole quail
They are completely different languages
proper saddle
@carmine relic Is there a good resource for C++ that isn't a book, because r/learnprogramming is like "books are the only good resource."
carmine relic
@whole quail If that's the case then they probably know what they're doing. But for most cases, the C++ stdlib is fast enough
whole quail
@carmine relic agree, it's fast enough for most people but it's slugish compared to what it could be
coral flame
the internet is a pretty good resource for leaning languages
carmine relic
@proper saddle cppreference is one of the best places to look for C++ documentation, and I suggest the C++ core guidelines for learning the general "gold standard" for writing fast maintainable C++ code
zealous tangle
you guys want to start a real war. lets go. What's your favorite DB technology and why.
obtuse stump
oracle because expensive = better, right?
whole quail
Also once you've learnt something, don't stick to guidelines just because
proper saddle
whole quail
As long as you document your code well enough people should be able to read it
zealous tangle
@obtuse stump. I'm drowning in your sarcasm.,
also having family that works in oracle. I absolutely agree.
carmine relic
Personally, I just use Entity Framework in .NET and stick whatever backend is necessary for the thing I'm working on
proper saddle
I use SQL Server because it's easier for me. ๐
obtuse stump
I have to use oracle and some of the decisions are just mind puzzling.
proper saddle
And I use it with EF core
carmine relic
e.g. if I need simple relational data storage, I'll use sqlite. If I need something more advanced, I'd likely jump to postgres first
zealous tangle
honestly. you can solve most problems with postgres.
coral flame
keep in mind the more things you pay for the more points of failure you have
obtuse stump
postgres or mariadb are my go-tos for personal projects.
daring anchor
im terrible at databases
carmine relic
@coral flame the more things you have the more points of failure you have, really
whole quail
Personally I use mysql and mongodb then have custom endpoints with all the information in memory while also taking backups
carmine relic
paying for it just makes it a larger point
coral flame
true
carmine relic
more like a circle rather than a point
coral flame
keeping it centralized makes it more reliable
obtuse stump
not a circle, a hole you fall into ๐
carmine relic
lmao
whole quail
It also keeps 1 point of failure
carmine relic
holes can be circles too
whole quail
Which is less reliable
coral flame
not in some cases
daring anchor
holes are negative circles with some depth
obtuse stump
I want to have few points of failure so I program everything as db routines
whole quail
I mean, are we talking about small projects here or industrial size
obtuse stump
so I only have db as backend
whole quail
Cause small projects who gives a fuck
daring anchor
idd
whole quail
use mysql if you want
carmine relic
I generally write my solutions to be as scalable as possible. I kind-of inherited it from ASP.NET
obtuse stump
I also overengineer my pet projects ๐
daring anchor
true
carmine relic
I have a stupidly over-engineered Discord bot running right now, actually
daring anchor
I have a friend that writes 100 lines of code for somethign that could be done in 5
carmine relic
its name is Monika, and it's a chat bot
obtuse stump
I was ready for "Its name is FiniteReality, and its a chat bot"
coral flame
if you think about it
carmine relic
But yeah, if you want to look at my over-engineered beauty: https://gitlab.com/FiniteReality/Monika
whole quail
Unpopular about to get me linched opinion: PHP (modern) is actually quite nice for small projects with a single developer
coral flame
java is over-engineered machine code
daring anchor
java is bad and slow, and impossible to write in
obtuse stump
java is easy to write in, what are you talking about ๐
carmine relic
Monika is written in C#, with a Lua component because writing a libgd wrapper would have been a pain in the arse
whole quail
^
carmine relic
Oh, functional programming is fun
coral flame
curry all the functions!
obtuse stump
It's like saying Ferrari is shit because it cannot drive offroad.
coral flame
and make them anonymous
carmine relic
I'm learning Haskell because it's part of my A-Level course
I've actually wanted to learn it for a while but I've only just gotten around to it because it's on my A-Level spec ๐
obtuse stump
I have tried haskell for 30 minutes, and then I forgot it. Should try it again.
whole quail
I don't have much use learning new languages now
Since I mostly use C++ for the types of things I do
proper saddle
Functional JS.
carmine relic
I've learned so many languages that I can pretty much just pick up languages as I go
daring anchor
usefull JS.
whole quail
The last language I learnt was Hack and I can't remember much since I never got to use it LOL
obtuse stump
unicorn
whole quail
@carmine relic same
obtuse stump
I have a small project I write in every new language I try.
whole quail
I can't even remember what languages I can use
I also have grown fond of C++ after using it so much
obtuse stump
It's a log processor for quite large files. Rust has been the fastest so far. Javascript not so much ๐
carmine relic
I can list a bunch of languages I can write, but it's definitely not exhaustive
obtuse stump
Gitlab vs Github vs Bitbucket, which do you prefer and why?
whole quail
C, C++, PHP, Lua, Javascript, C#, Python are the only ones I can think of right now
obtuse stump
I have used bitbucket for quite some time because of unlimited private repos, some projects in github.
proper saddle
C#, JavaScript and Python.
obtuse stump
Never used gitlab so far.
daring anchor
ikr
whole quail
gitlab is annoying sometimes
coral flame
I use github, I get unlimited private repos from education discount
whole quail
But gitlab when it works, works amazingly
proper saddle
I don't completely know JS, but I know enough to do some algoithms in it. :v
whole quail
I use it for a gta v mp mod project I'm with
carmine relic
Personally, I love GitLab.
coral flame
meanwhile the people on the hardware side here use svn and redmine
daring anchor
I know a lot of languages, as in i know how to do algorithms in them
whole quail
@carmine relic you forgot the "when it's not down" clause
carmine relic
it's always been up when I needed it @whole quail ยฏ_(ใ)_/ยฏ
obtuse stump
I have never used any other versioning system besides git (zip backups is not versioning, right? ๐ )
whole quail
It's been going down for me so often
carmine relic
I must be lucky then ยฏ_(ใ)_/ยฏ
whole quail
zip backups is the best versioning!
molten kindle
.1, .2, .3 pls
carmine relic
either way, I used to host a local GitLab instance but my server's SATA controller died (at least I think) so I haven't really used it in a while
obtuse stump
git can also be messy if you do not know 100% what you are doing.
carmine relic
ah yes
obtuse stump
that good old xkcd
carmine relic
git can definitely be messy if you don't know what you're doing
obtuse stump
carmine relic
If you're familiar with Discord.Net, I'd like you to try out version 1.0.0 (specifically that version) - You will find that it is completely and utterly broken. And that was mostly my fault ๐
whole quail
Has anyone used rich presence here yet?
daring anchor
thats some damn good advertising
carmine relic
Like, I fucked up with git so much for the 1.0.0 release that we named it the #blamefinite release
whole quail
It's so easy to implement
carmine relic
rich presence is really easy to use, yeah
carmine relic
@molten kindle I bet most of those breaking changes were my fault ๐
carmine relic
that was a collaboration between foxbot and myself
carmine relic
anyway, as for rich presence, I have a rich presence app on my computer which sets a presence "Staring at Monika" with a few pictures. It's not running since I'm on my laptop
molten kindle
if you've seen that one
carmine relic
bunehammer? Nope.
obtuse stump
If it wasnt 11:55pm, I would start programming something, kinda hyped up after this discussion ๐
but instead I go to sleep, cya \o
carmine relic
Haha, it's 21:55 here. (11PM for the inferior people who use 12hr time ๐)
obtuse stump
I wrote 12h so everyone understands ๐
used to doing it in international chats for some reason
obtuse stump
Unless you get it wrong.
carmine relic
and the only other standard is 24hr
obtuse stump
There is base-10 as well ๐
carmine relic
10base?
daring anchor
binary??
carmine relic
decimal time?
daring anchor
hexadecimal?
\
carmine relic
jesus christ people still use decimal time?
obtuse stump
carmine relic
i thought that died in the french revolution
coral flame
who needs 24 hour time when we could define everything in picoseconds after 1/1/2000
whole quail
@carmine relic https://i.imgur.com/o4WFdvh.png xd
zealous tangle
the real magic is always being aware of UTC time wrt your own time zone and being able to convert to it and back instantaneously. you can tell how often I've had to debug/parse logs.
carmine relic
@whole quail is that the C++ stuff?
daring anchor
yeh
carmine relic
@zealous tangle oh yeah, that's pretty magic
whole quail
@carmine relic that's rich presence
daring anchor
wathever
obtuse stump
For me it is quite easy, UTC is -2/-3, so not that hard to calc ๐
in US it is somewhat more tricky
daring anchor
UK = -1 rest of eu = +2
carmine relic
though I'm right in UTC so it's not hard to figure out ๐
zealous tangle
for me, -7/-8 so it can be kind of interesting.
carmine relic
huh no
daring anchor
rest of the world = idc
carmine relic
UK is UTC
coral flame
uses google
whole quail
carmine relic
except in BST when it's UTC+1
@whole quail match secret is just a secret used for joining game servers
whole quail
"TODO" is like my most used comment
whole quail
I still have no idea how the joining works
carmine relic
as long as your game client can figure out which server to join based on it, its fine
whole quail
I had to do something else before I worked it out
zealous tangle
TODO: remove this nasty hack to get this working again
coral flame
Actually though
whole quail
oh boy do I have a comment that will make people mad
carmine relic
RP::Ready is just a callback to let you know that the IPC connection is ready
whole quail
carmine relic
@whole quail Nah, I do that all the time in cpp files when I know it's safe to do so
it's not that bad
whole quail
@carmine relic pm me how join works when you have time
coral flame
At least you have comments it is so hard to get my team to comment anything
whole quail
I don't completely understand it
obtuse stump
We have almost no comments at all. Code should be self-documenting.
sensible names for functions etc
whole quail
@carmine relic also it's pretty bad xd
zealous tangle
I reviewed a junior engineer's django code once. he accidentally overwrote a primitive with a value, because you can do that in python. Lets just say I added two new linters to our CI/CD pipeline after that.
coral flame
Well sometimes some things can't document themselves
whole quail
You shouldn't do it on anything important or anything large
carmine relic
@whole quail I forget how the flow works entirely, but IIRC you get a join request with the secrets and stuff and you're supposed to use that to connect
whole quail
I don't get where the connecting happens and what gets sent where
carmine relic
ยฏ_(ใ)_/ยฏ
whole quail
It's literally undocumented
carmine relic
I haven't looked that much into it
i wonder where mason put the dev documentation for discord-rpc ๐
anyway
zealous tangle
but in the real world, when your CEO is breathing down your neck to get this feature built because it's going to "change everything" so you end up writing it pretty messily. hence why I still write docstrings and whatnot.
carmine relic
as for using namespace std... whoops I guess? https://github.com/FiniteReality/SourceLua/blob/master/src/thread/scheduler.cpp
how did i manage to hit enter there
dumb laptop keyboard
carmine relic
meh, std::chrono::duration_cast<std::chrono::milliseconds> is long
i could probably use a namespace alias instead but oh well ยฏ_(ใ)_/ยฏ
vestal glen
auto
whole quail
Put using chrono in SourceLua or put your code in a namespace and put anything you need there
carmine relic
auto doesn't solve the duration cast issue
whole quail
namespaces are the dirtiest clean thing
carmine relic
it's in an implementation file, and it's in a namespace anyway so yea, it's not that bad
whole quail
I mean, it's worse than what I did it in
carmine relic
i definitely never put 'using namespace' in a header file
whole quail
I did it in a 543 line csgo cheat
carmine relic
that's my golden rule about 'using namespace': never in header files
my favourite bit about that C++ file though, is line 55 ๐
whole quail
Why do people have to abuse ReClass so much
whole quail
carmine relic
I always made the structs myself
I have like a thousand C# structs for when I was writing a WoW server in my free time ๐
You can probably guess why I lost motivation in the project lmao
Oh, that and implementing SRP6 was a nightmare
whole quail
For the mp mod I work on, GTA V has been reversed so much that there isn't that much needed
carmine relic
like, if there's one thing I recommend you never do, ever, it's implement World of Warcraft SRP6
carmine relic
jesus christ I spent so many weeks of hair pulling on trying to get that stuff to work
whole quail
ReClass is so messyyyyyy
carmine relic
i never figured out what the problem was, because I even translated line by line the implementation of CMaNGOS' SRP6 and it refused to work
static latch
a coworker and i spent today trying to de-tangle some code... we hit header files last modified in the 90s...
daring anchor
90 istn legacy code right? at least not in my definition
swift niche
I mean, C++ 98 looks quite a lot different than C++ 11
Can't really argue for other languages lol
obtuse stump
@daring anchor , it's not legacy until you hit 198x and Cobol.
proper saddle
Doesn't financial stuffs still use Cobal?
obtuse stump
Not only financial stuff. Quite a lot of systems that were built pre 1990s use Cobol.
It's just that financial systems are more likely to have been started in 1980s
they had money for computers
cyan niche
if it aint broke dont fix it
obtuse stump
Thing is, they often are bottlenecks, but too hard or expensive to replace.
proper saddle
Cobol's last stable release was 2014. ๐
obtuse stump
I prefer that to JS where frameworks had last stable release in 1 hour ago... oh sorry, 1 minute ago.
and 1h ago release is deprecated
๐
obtuse stump
Cobol is so mature that maybe it is okay.
Cannot say really, I have never used it myself.
proper saddle
Security fixes would be nice, can never be too secure. :v
obtuse stump
Maybe Cobol is done, nothing to fix anymore ๐
torn remnant
rich cradle
fucking PHP
native lintel
ah PHP ain't so bad if you use it properly... except all the ways in which it's terrible like terniary operator order, flipped needle / haystack parameters, things like that
cyan niche
you spoiled kids
proper saddle
The Lisp one on Git the Princess is my favorite! 
Even though I've never used it. xd
frosty sleet
Does anyone have experience in building a NPS extension dll?
I need to do this for a school project but i can't find any information on how to begin
torn remnant
PHP is like a synonym of despair
mental magnet
I feel I must be doing it wrong. I do JS without libraries.
proper saddle
o: You don't really need libraries or frameworks, it just makes it easier. ๐
obtuse stump
Doing JS without libraries is cool. It's just not that productive. Imo.
torn remnant
@obtuse stump I'd say it's more productive than using the wrong libraries.
obtuse stump
I suggest not using the wrong libraries ๐
I cannot imagine building a web page without React or Vue or Angular or something similar.
And having maintain it.
torn remnant
Actually, it's harder to maintain it with Angular ๐
At least assuming you compare it with a decent MVC web framework
Never tried React though
torn remnant
But I dare say, using Angular is basically 1.5-2x the effort of a simple webpage supported by JS
obtuse stump
Well, for simple page it might be overkill to use framework.
torn remnant
And it is likely to be much buggier as well
obtuse stump
But if you have decent amount of business logic etc, it is a neccessity imo.
torn remnant
The thing is, not every website has to be an SPA
obtuse stump
True.
torn remnant
In fact, as fun as SPAs are, if you want something you can put ads on, it's a clusterfuck
Cause obviously, advertisers just HAVE to use document.write on async loaded ads.
obtuse stump
Yeah, I am fortunate, I have never dealed with ads ๐
torn remnant
Then your users will be asking why they get empty pages
That you are. It sucks ๐
obtuse stump
I can imagine, with all that fancy JS they bring along.
torn remnant
But honestly, I can only see the benefit of an SPA in very few cases
obtuse stump
Everyone remembers old PHP ๐
And every time I have had to work with legacy PHP project... oh wow.
torn remnant
@whole quail I have yet to see a non-cancerous PHP project
plus, it still has a LOT of bad things about it
whole quail
PHP 7 is completely different
PHP 7 is actually nice to program in
People just hate on PHP because it used to be literal cancer for a long time
whole quail
PHP 5 isn't that bad either lol
PHP 4 and below are complete cancer however
PHP 7 can also be faster than Hack
whole quail
I haven't heard anyone who actually uses PHP 5, PHP 7 and Hack say that lol
torn remnant
Now you have
The only thing worse than the language artifacts are the super-popular garbage with actual support that people make with it
The only people who I haven't heard talk bad about PHP (including 7) are the people who have only ever used PHP
The rest are already using NodeJS, Python, Go, Java or C# or something else
gritty rain
the code any bot should have
if ( message.mentions.everyone )
message.channel.sendMessage( "Do that again you little ike", {
file: "https://cdn.weeb.sh/images/ryKLMPEj-.png"
} );
Oh yes
nocturne galleon
Oh god, every coding channel on discord is just full of d.js
carmine relic
Try discord api. Everyone flips their shit if you talk about libraries in the wrong channel
gritty rain
what's wrong with d.js?
torn remnant
Dunno about d.js, Microsoft fanboys have had async/await in typscript for years o3o
keen nymph
Cmd hardcore mode
timber quail
Oh god
sacred forge
@gritty rain btw, sendMessage is Deprecated, use message.channel.send('test')
hollow stirrup
@torn remnant @carmine relic Iโm a (modern) PHP developer. AMA 
nocturne galleon
Machine learning is fun Scary! https://github.com/255BITS/HyperGAN
halcyon pike
Anyone have any suggestions for learning how to code in Kotlin, I have some ideas on some Android apps I want to create but would appreciate it if someone could show me some free online courses/instructions. Thanks!
proper saddle
The official docs? 
nocturne galleon
Also, using a native language isn't a requirement, react native etc is always an option
proper gale
Jetbrains did a great job on the docs/tutorial on the kotlin website.
For the language, not the Android API
torn remnant
@hollow stirrup Where does it hurt?
hollow stirrup
LOL
whole quail
@hollow stirrup do you ever work with other developers? do they hate you?
PHP is fine and all but if you make anyone else use it with you you're the devil
Or if you need more than 1 person on the project it's so annoying
hollow stirrup
@whole quail Our team's core site is a mainly Laravel and Vue.js based app.
I hate vanilla PHP myself lol
whole quail
@hollow stirrup that looks terrible lol
whole quail
Uses so many techniques on the website to make it look better than it is
hollow stirrup
It's in beta lol
whole quail
Looks b grade
hollow stirrup
Landing page is really bad
Look at the UI though if you'd like
(video is very outdated)
whole quail
idk I don't have a use for UI 98% of the time
hollow stirrup
wat?
idle cave
oo Laravel en Vue, my dayjob
whole quail
I use cli for most important things
hollow stirrup
Then CodePier isn't for you lol
shell coyote
Can someone pls copy the -----text---- category for me pls, i want to add it to my server.
whole quail
cli, vs, vs code is all I use
hollow stirrup
We automate infrastructure for web devs that would prefer to not worry about it.
whole quail
I'm like the opposite of a web dev
hollow stirrup
Then CodePier isn't for you lol
whole quail
See, I do web development, I just use a giant ass pole while doing it as to not get anywhere near it
torn remnant
Most modern frameworks on the cloud automate it, honestly
Uploading a website to Azure takes 2 clicks. Another 3 or so for the first time. Making it scale is just about the same 3 clicks.
Same with node
hollow stirrup
@torn remnant One of the ways that CodePier is different from say a PaaS, is in the sense that you have full control over your infrastructure.
whole quail
Considering that like 40% of all the programming I do atm is making cheats for games in C++ on windows I'm definitely not the target audience xd
idle cave
we use automatic deployment systems for all clients. and all external env's . i might haved logged in to one server ssg as a developer role. am pretty happy about it
torn remnant
@hollow stirrup So I can SSH into any of the individial, automatically provisioned machines that might be replaced at any time due to provisioning/maintenance. Cool.
whole quail
That's a loaded sentence if I've ever seen one hahaha
torn remnant
It's meant to be. Automatic provisioning is both a boon and a nightmare.
whole quail
Loaded multiple times too
hollow stirrup
@torn remnant Yeah, you can. We won't overwrite any changes you've made.
torn remnant
@whole quail It's a railgun
whole quail
A giant point
torn remnant
With a stack of bullets in the barrel
whole quail
You need a solution that is specific enough to your problem that you can maintain it in specific ways
Or you have a solution that is too restrictive and because of that makes things harder
Or you have a solution that let's some junior dev (or at least give the junior dev the blame) make a tiny mistake that takes days to find
torn remnant
@hollow stirrup If you want something properly nice, add a manually editable command list that is automatically ran on every new server deployment. And add .NET Core and SQL Server 2017 for Linux to that stack, or enterprises won't even look your way
whole quail
Also setup editable user restrictions so that if someone does need to do something manually they can't fuck things up too badly
And if there isn't a backup system that can constantly take backups with enough data to restore a server but not any unnecaserry repetitive information
You really should add one
With configurable excemptions too
torn remnant
Free SSL certificates... Who even needs to buy non-EV certificates with CloudFlare and Let's Encrypt around...
whole quail
Also after those additions (and probably more) you still would need to have a large enough advantage over other solutions
torn remnant
Well priced dedicated servers would be a good starting point
Something that has proper horsepower
Not an overprovisioned hyperthread on a 40-core 2Ghz machine
whole quail
If you can't undercut an aws solution by at least 50% it's very difficult to get someone to go with you over an aws solution
torn remnant
It doesn't take much to undercut AWS/GCS/Azure
You can basically calculate your /core price by assuming you get hyperthreads instead of cores, each at 2.2Ghz
whole quail
Keeping speed/reliability it's not that easy
In some cases impossible
In others really simple
torn remnant
@whole quail The thing is, if you made an auto-provisioning system on OVH dedicated machines, and increased their price by 50% that way, you'd still be like 70-90% under cloud prices
whole quail
You wouldn't have their reliability though
torn remnant
Honestly? I'm not even sure about that
I've seen more downtimes from AWS and Azure than from dedicated machines
whole quail
I've seen the opposite
torn remnant
Plus, Azure even recommends you to add a duplicate app service on another region that is paired against your primary region in case of regional maintenance, and using a load balancer to manage it.
Which is just BS
whole quail
I personally won't use Azure and haven't used it much
whole quail
I thought it was less
Also I've found that AWS seems less reliable because you expect it to be up
whole quail
So when it isn't it's really annoying
torn remnant
10:30AM to 2PM PST
3.5 hours
Actually, started even before 10:30AM
9:45AM
That's a loooong downtime
Plus, the pricing is so expensive that, while it does take more work, if you double up on dedicated servers you are still getting away much cheaper
Of course, that assumes you do have someone to maintain it so obviously not really worth it otherwise
whole quail
Depends on the needed power too
torn remnant
Yeah. On small scale, maintenance and SLA is a bother
On larger scale though, clouds so aren't worth it
And if you do something irregular like hosting images, the network pricing is crippling.
Plus, my PC can run circles around 3 entire 4-core cloud instances on both AWS and Azure
inner umbra
Hello guys. I want to start ccna but I don't know if it still worth. Could anyone who has ccna tell me if it is worthy?
torn remnant
ccna?
inner umbra
Yes
sour nova
@inner umbra If you don't need it right now I would wait. The certification only lasts for 3 years or something. No point in taking it before you need it.
chilly shell
One doesn't realise the benefit of operator overloading until it's lost. Man coding Java looks like a pain after I finally did C++.
I mean look at this bullshit: b.negate().multiply(a.modInverse(n)).mod(n);
All what this should do is essentially this: a^-1 * -b (mod N)
sour nova
@torn remnant Cisco Certified Network Associate
proper saddle
Certified
torn remnant
Yeah I figured in the 5.5 hours since ๐
carmine relic
@proper gale I'm using freetype to get kerning information, and gd to render images
i would use gd's built in freetype stuff but unfortunately it doesn't deal well with wrapping text
proper gale
Freetype is fine.
carmine relic
yeah, freetype is ok
proper gale
Gd, couldn't be as hard as OpenGL.
carmine relic
it's just wrapping text is hard ๐
carmine relic
https://gitlab.com/FiniteReality/Monika/blob/master/src/ImageGenerator/main.lua#L74 Here's pretty much what I came up with... and even then it's not 100%...
proper gale
thats not that bad
in terms of size
choice of language could be argued, but its not that long
carmine relic
yeah
proper gale
i havent written a text renderer in a few years, and the one i did make was shit
carmine relic
i chose lua because it had already available bindings for the libs I wanted to use, and would have been easier to debug than something written in C
carmine relic
it is... except when you fuck memory up
proper gale
i sniped you on that
carmine relic
yeah, i saw ๐
but i'd rather not fuck memory up and since lua is garbage collected, it makes things a lot easier
carmine relic
yeah i know
proper gale
no manual memory in there
carmine relic
if you use new or delete you're generally doing something wrong
carmine relic
well yeah
unless you need to use it, you probably shouldn't, is all i'm saying ๐
proper gale
or are using global pointers/references (bad idea but you kinda need new/delete for that)
because a global smart pointer will never hit deconstruction
woeful jay
Retard moment, Hex is 0-8, A-F isn't it?
carmine relic
yeah, F being 15 and 0 being 0
whole quail
@woeful jay 0-9, A-F
0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, A, B, C, D, E, F
16 individual characters/digits
zealous plaza
^
mossy goblet
quick sort of programming related question: would you choose 29" 2560x1080 or 27" 2560x1440 for programming productivity?
dawn sorrel
take the 1440p one
mossy goblet
what's the reasoning behind that? if it helps i will be pairing it with my existing 24" 1080p
dawn sorrel
the 16:9 aspect ratio is better than ultrawide for this kinda stuff. Also more pixels contribute to you being able to read more text on the screen
mossy goblet
ok sounds good thanks for your help
dawn sorrel
๐
also if you do webcoding or make uis it will be beneficial since you can use the 1080p screen to see the at in realtime as you code
mossy goblet
yeah i do some web stuff and also some unity game dev which definitely benefits from 2 monitors
dawn sorrel
^^
whole quail
1440p is just nice
4k makes a lot of things look weird
I have a 1440p, gysnc, 144hz 27inch monitor
obtuse stump
27" has more pixels. And should be bigger area as well iirc.
Plus depending on what your needs and current monitor are,maybe you can use it in portrait mode
Also, 29" + 24" side by side is too wide imo
proper gale
Quad+ monitor is nice for game dev stuff
carmine relic
Having more than one monitor in general helps greatly when you're trying to write code ๐
grand hornet
Iโm a web developer o/
I think Iโm going to buy a ultrawide screen for development with two 23 inch screens next to it
carmine relic
haha
I have two 1080p displays, one 24" and the other 21", it's p. nice
at least I think the smaller one is 21"
proper gale
ive got a 24" main, twin 23.x" secondarys and a some cheapo old dell that fits on my shelf for a quaternary monitor.
its very nice to have lots of screen
gritty carbon
29" ultrawide main, 24" secondary
carmine relic
Man, writing an AI is so much fun
obtuse stump
while(true)
destroyHumankind();
dawn sorrel
how does one write an ai?
carmine relic
Honestly, I don't know. I'm just using Dialogflow, which is based on Tensorflow
Dialogflow is doing all the magic here, really
proper gale
its not magic
its math
math that i sort of understand but could not give a good explanation of.
carmine relic
I also sort-of understand how neural networks work, but I don't get how they work
like, I understand that it's a network of nodes linked together which calculate values based on weights
but I don't get how they can be used to, say, convolute an image
proper gale
how the comutation works is math, how that computation works to actually do something, is magic.
carmine relic
yeah
rocky hamlet
can't wait digging into that
that's when/if my game project ever gets that far
still stuck at physics and collisions
already did a small image recognition test in Unreal engine, surprisingly easy to set up
proper gale
writing the OpenCL code to accellerate that at a reasonable speed, is hard.
very, very, hard.
rocky hamlet
yea at acceptable rates
proper gale
its not that hard
carmine relic
I was aiming to write a simple audio transcoder using it so I could massively parallelize and hopefully improve the speed of audio transcoding for a music bot project I had
proper gale
not im comparison to Vulkan
the hard part is spliting the work
and factoring in stuff like instruction divergince
carmine relic
yeah, that's where I gave up ๐
I was trying to design a good "flow" to doing it but I couldn't come up with anything that didn't have serious bottlenecks somewhere
proper gale
i would probably have split the file by small chunks and had each kernel work on a very small section of it.
IE, each kernel does 0.05s of audio (~4000 work items at 4 minutes of audio)
proper gale
@rich cradle what language are you learning?
rich cradle
little bit of C#
rich cradle
i was told its a very flexible lanuage for software and game dev
i was also recommended Python
rich cradle
i don't have the experience to know the difference, but i remember a game dev complaing about C++ and eventually switched to C# due to more efficent load times
also i haven't heard a reason to use C++ over C#
carmine relic
C# isn't a combination of the "worst of Java and C++" ๐
carmine relic
namespaces in C# are far better than Java packages, and you don't even need them
proper gale
and does C# support native prodecural code?
carmine relic
pesedual?
proper gale
no objects
carmine relic
.NET is object based; you can't have a not-object-based language in an object-based platform
heck, even if you did have a language that was purely procedural, it would likely just wrap everything in a class anyway
proper gale
C
carmine relic
(in the .NET ecosystem, that is)
proper gale
and im not looking for how its working on the hardware
im talking about the language
in the end, its all C
proper gale
Can you write c style code in c#
rich cradle
what have i started?
proper gale
You can't in Java. Well, static exists but I don't count that
carmine relic
What do you mean "C style code"?
Purely procedural?
You could take "C style code" to mean anything, really
proper gale
yes, pure procedural
carmine relic
No. Objects are generally easier to deal with, anyway.
proper gale
@rich cradle welcome to the club.
carmine relic
The last time I tried writing pure procedural code I literally ended up with spaghetti
proper gale
Glad you came.
carmine relic
Like, purely procedural code makes sense in some cases
proper gale
I code in a hybrid manner.
carmine relic
but for the sort of target that C# and .NET in general is targeted at, pure procedural code really doesn't make sense
rich cradle
@proper gale on the site im being taught (sololearn.com), its a lot of basic terms for someone who's never done coding before like conditionals, loopss, methods, class & objects , etc. which im still not too familiar with (since im still learning)
carmine relic
But yeah, C# is definitely not the worst of Java, for what its worth
C# is leaps and bounds ahead of Java
and Java have only just started trying to catch up ๐
proper gale
Java has some darker parts, yes.
rich cradle
i was respond to your earlier message btw about there being little terms despite me not even understanding half of what even goes on here
carmine relic
In general: anything you can do in Java, you can do in C# with less code and get similar or better performance
proper gale
Java 9 modules are very nice. I'm aware its basically namespaces, but it's separate bot intertwined.
obtuse stump
java 9 modules are nice in theory, practice is to be seen ๐
proper gale
That's on the developers
obtuse stump
Yeap
carmine relic
I like the fact that C++ doesn't really have any specific style standard. It means that you get to choose something you prefer, instead of being forced into the "widely accepted norm"
I mean, as long as you're consistent with your style
I generally have my IDE set up to format files before saving so I naturally force myself into my configured style
obtuse stump
Everyone should use autoformat. Not using it in 2017 is just being lazy imo.
carmine relic
autoformat?
obtuse stump
Basically what you said, different IDE-s call it differently. Some do it on save, some do it on some shortcut.
obtuse stump
cmd+alt+L or ctrl+alt+L in IDEA iirc
carmine relic
since I'm mainly a C# dev, I used to use visual studio a lot so I configure most of my editors to use ctrl+k, d to format files
and I also enable the "format on save" option if it exists
obtuse stump
Reasonable.
And if some dev forgets, our build env will throw a big red error and tell them how stupid they are ๐
carmine relic
It's literally muscle memory for me at this point, so its impossible for me to not remember ๐
I don't throw errors on style violations though... Mostly because I haven't found the options to do that
obtuse stump
It's funny how I am not sure what a shortcut is when I have to tell someone else. But when I have to use it, it is just there. ๐
carmine relic
I hate IntelliJ so I stay away from it like its some sort of disease ๐
obtuse stump
Why so?
carmine relic
For me, its UI is back-asswards and I end up having to jump through hoops trying to get to something I want ยฏ_(ใ)_/ยฏ
proper gale
Idea is amazballs, not sure what crack you are on.
carmine relic
Compared with Visual Studio, where everything just "made sense" to my mind
obtuse stump
I am the opposite of that ๐
Plus I like that different jetbrain products use the same logic. So if I use webstorm, all my knowledge applies.
carmine relic
either way, I personally use KDevelop for C/C++ and VS Code for anything else
proper gale
Not a second IDE.
obtuse stump
Clion, Webstorm, Pycharm etc
proper gale
Vs code != Vs
obtuse stump
all the same, just different skin ๐
carmine relic
Yeah, I know VS Code isn't Visual Studio ๐
carmine relic
Visual Studio doesn't run on linux so I'm stuck in the VS Code boat until Microsoft do something about it
proper gale
Vs code is fine
obtuse stump
a great place to store SOAP requests/replies and compare them
proper gale
Vs is trash.
carmine relic
It'd be dope if Visual Studio ran on linux, at least for me
proper gale
N++ is my clipboard
carmine relic
Oh, another problem with IntelliJ is that Rider uses Resharper as its backend
which means that you don't get the niceties of Roslyn
Roslyn analysers are literally dope
They can do everything Resharper can, and more
and they're pretty easy to write
compared to Resharper, where you're stuck with JetBrains' limited set of things which don't expand far out of what they implement
obtuse stump
That sounds legit (foreign problem for me ๐ )
carmine relic
Yeah
I can see how it would have made sense in the past when Roslyn wasn't really "stable", because Resharper may have legitimately provided far superior semantic analysis than Visual Studio
but now that Roslyn is very much a thing, it's just dead weight really
I usually feel sorry for the devs who are locked into using Resharper since it's literally second nature to them
proper gale
Resharper is nice for c++
carmine relic
I'm a fan of KDevelop's semantic analysis ยฏ_(ใ)_/ยฏ
it's powered by clang so it's super accurate, and is generally quite unobtrusive
obtuse stump
On another topic, what is your CPU usage on http://floatplane.com
On my Macbook Pro 15" mid 2014 the fans got almost to full speed after a few minutes ๐ With Safari.
carmine relic
Signed in or no? Because I obviously don't have an account ๐