cars

[dense shard]

The excuse of needing a link to Tesla is bullshit.

[eager kite]

What it's saying is that they won't be able to do remote diagnostics on your car

[dense shard]

I don't want them to spy on me.

I want to be able to do it myself.

As I have with literally any other car on the road today.

I want to plug a dongle into my OBDII port, and go from there.

[eager kite]

FYI, no car besides teslas have the advanced error diagnostic systems available today

[dense shard]

A lot do.

You'd be surprised.

All modern cars sold in the US, Japan, and Europe have an OBDII port.

Which allows for diagnostics.

[eager kite]

Sure, can you do it in your own house from the car's integrated touch screen?

or better yet, call someone and have them do it for you without having to take your car anywhere

[dense shard]

A simple code tool will allow you to scan it, cross check it, and fix it.

[eager kite]

wait, so I have to pay for a code tool?

[dense shard]

Yes. Of course.

[eager kite]

well

[dense shard]

But it doesn't require I have an uplink to Telsa.

[eager kite]

I don't have to do that for a Tesla

[dense shard]

uhuh

So why the data link to Tesla?

[eager kite]

I don't have to buy a separate tool

and, Teslas can still do their own internal diagnostics

[dense shard]

but not all

"The car will be able to diagnose some issues"

[eager kite]

but some can't be done without internet

sure

[dense shard]

That's dumb.

[eager kite]

nah not really

[dense shard]

All issues should be able to be diagnosed in house without internet.

It's super dumb.

There is no reason to lock away any diagnostics.

I get an OBD2 scanner, and EVERYTHING is at my fingertips.

[eager kite]

why waste more money and engineering time into making the computer have to store and run those diagnostics for every single car

when they can just have it done remotely

[dense shard]

Because Telsa already wasted billions putting a far sound into their cars.

[eager kite]

and get the exact same results

[dense shard]

If they can afford such idiocy, they can afford a diagnostic tool.

[eager kite]

lmao why do you guys always throw out billion numbers

[dense shard]

okay, millions?

[eager kite]

Tesla barely spends above a billion a years entirely on R&D

[dense shard]

They wasted money on a shit feature when they could have added something useful.

But they didn't.

They added a fart, and require you connect to servers to diagnose your car.

Annoying you aren't always in a place you can connect.

[eager kite]

The cars use mobile networks

so basically anywhere you go in NA or Europe you'll have internet

Again, the cars self diagnose many problems

however, there are other problems which require more intensive diagnostics, just like how in an ICE car there are many things the average person needs to bring into a dealership for because they can't just diagnose a missing tooth in one of the gears in their transmission or something else like that in their garage

[dense shard]

oh you can diagnose a grenaded transmission.

The car doesn't move and makes horrible noises.

[eager kite]

oh but which gear is broken?

[dense shard]

all of them

If a tooth broke off. Chances are it took out the rest of the gears.

[eager kite]

what if it's just 1 tho

[dense shard]

Bits of metal in a transmission is bad news.

[eager kite]

how would you know

[dense shard]

It's common sense.

[eager kite]

gotta open up the whole think to see right?

[crisp jolt]

I'm finding inconsistent info regarding how much my car can tow behind it

[dense shard]

Check manufacturer.

Or manual.

Or wait... I think the car might have tow info on the door jamb itself.

[crisp jolt]

the manual in the car gives a different number than what's on the door jamb

[dense shard]

Follow the door jamb.

That's specific to your car I believe.

Manual could be referring to other cars.

Also if it's one gear that broken, and it hasn't fucked the transmission.

You can tell.

By driving it. Which ever gear is wonky is the gear that needs to be fixed.

But with automatic transmissions, most automakers will just replace instead of repair. Takes less time and money.

[eager kite]

neither the manual or manufacturer could tell you if a single gear was broken or if it was multiple gears

only way to find out would be to open it up and inspect it

which, most people can't do in their garage

so, you rely on a 3rd party (mechanic) to diagnose and repair the car

in the same sense, a Tesla car has certain things which it can't do when not connected to Tesla.

So, it needs Tesla to diagnose and repair the car

[crisp jolt]

It says the GVWR as well as the front and rear rating

[eager kite]

and maybe a transmission isn't the best example for an ICE equivalent, but there is definitely some comparison you can make here

[crisp jolt]

I'm not sure what those mean to be honest

[eager kite]

what is it that you're not sure about? @crisp jolt

[crisp jolt]

How does that translate to how much it can pull compared to how much junk I can throw in the car

I can post a picture tomorrow morning if it helps

[stoic ledge]

@indigo coral : about the Saab 9-5 NG SportsCombi:
All pre-production (testing-)vehicles, they actually couldn't be sold and had to be scrapped but due to inventory auctions, people could buy them. I think 27 of those survived

They were hard to register, since the didn't have a CoC (Certificate of Conformity). So you had to use the IVA (Individual Vehicle Approval) to get it registered. Getting those papers was a pain in the *ss. Apparently, the German TÜV could get cars registered, so people took their 9-5 NG SC to Germany to get it registered and approved there. Once it's approved/registered in one EU country, it's also approved in other EU countries 🙃 So, they could import it back to their home country and register it there.

But... Some people received a note of falsely registering in Germany (the German authorities had incorrectly approve their car according to some legislation). By shoving EU Council Directive 1999/37... They started investigating more. Many mails, phone calls (and months) later, they finally budged and registered the car

[fair bronze]

They are such good looking cars

[civic spoke]

Yeet. I'll be able to pick up my new tires on Monday, probably.

[civic spoke]

I went with a set of Nokian Hakkapeliitta

[unreal terrace]

hakka 9s?

[tight cypress]

Nokian tyres

what an joke

[unreal terrace]

Their winter tyres are good actually

[tight cypress]

i can go straight to the factory

only 20km

nokian winter tyres have no grip in the snow

sad

[civic spoke]

Hakka R3

I kinda needed studless

I paid like €360 for the set. And then it will be a little more to get them mounted on the old winter rims.

[tight cypress]

that name is weird

usually its something called in finnish but not this time

[unreal terrace]

oof studless winter tyres

[civic spoke]

I mean, the real name is hakkapeliitta

[tight cypress]

i mean that doesnt mean anything in finnish atleast

[magic arrow]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_AOmzbuoEQE

[indigo coral]

[unreal terrace]

@tight cypress https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hakkapeliitta

[stoic ledge]

@magic arrow once again: very nice video Also love the interior/exterior combo :)

Oof as pictured it's $201k USD here 😢

[tight cypress]

never heard of that

even when im finnish

[unborn rain]

Does anyone remember the bmw isetta oh wait wrong erra

I thought it was 2150 now 2019

[crisp jolt]

And there's no GCWR listed..hm

[magic arrow]

thanks!

[crisp jolt]

Found it in the book in my car, assuming curb weight is accurate I can pull 2k pounds..where's the electrical connector though?

[crisp jolt]

Also, damn. Way out of my price range, but that's a cool car

[civic spoke]

I want to get a MC license.

[viral matrix]

Just do it

[civic spoke]

Just need a bike first.

[viral matrix]

What kind of bike you're looking for?

[civic spoke]

One with two wheels.

Probably a 650.

[viral matrix]

Single, 2 or 4 cylinder?

[civic spoke]

Need to wait until spring either way.

[viral matrix]

Obviously

[civic spoke]

I actually really want a Husky 701

But it would be terrible for commuting

[viral matrix]

I don't like supermotos that much

[civic spoke]

But I could really do with whatever.

[viral matrix]

They're great on small tracks and short trips, but terrible at long commutes

[civic spoke]

MT-07 is another I want

[viral matrix]

That's a nice bike

Naked bikes aren't my thing though, I have a 2004 GSX600F

[civic spoke]

I'd probably just go for a touring-like bike.

And get a wind shield for it.

[stoic ledge]

What's MC?

Minecraft? xD

https://youtu.be/gS_nR9_lp5A

How? And why that many SUVs?

[flint sable]

Love the single seat design

Wish you could get a manual

Still a concept I think

[eager kite]

if you're going single seat why not go in the center...

[dense shard]

Because it harkens back to the older days of similar cars that had a cover for the passenger's seat.

Implied you can take that cover off, and have a 2 seater.

[fair bronze]

@eager kite Can't really do that with the engine in the front and RWD

[stoic ledge]

Put the seat on top of the driveshaft, pedals on both sides pogey

But yes it's an hommage to old race cars, with covered up passenger seats for improved aerodynamics

[eager kite]

@fair bronze yea you can...

put 2 engines in it or run the axle down one side of the car

[fair bronze]

Sure dude, great for weight balance

[fathom socket]

anyone knows what model is this car

never seen it b4

@ me

[fair bronze]

David Brown Speedback GT @fathom socket

[fathom socket]

thank you very much

seems like it's the brand's first car

[fair bronze]

It's based on the Jaguar XK

Looks like there are two of them in your picture

[fathom socket]

holy moly

[indigo coral]

E60 5 series best looking 5er

[eager kite]

@fair bronze yea it's great for weight balance especially when it's electric motors

and having the axle down one side of the vehicle doesn't change much of the weight balance

[fair bronze]

Have fun with your electric Ferrari

[eager kite]

don't worry they will go that direction anyway

[fair bronze]

That's boring af

[eager kite]

Porsche is going that direction

Lamborghini is going that direction...

[fair bronze]

Their main customers don't care for electric cars

Lamborghini ain't going nowhere

[eager kite]

um

their new car is literally a hybrid

[fathom socket]

series 5 E60 > all

[fair bronze]

Besides, what's your point

Hybrid isn't fully electric

[fathom socket]

series 6 E63 > all

[eager kite]

sure

but it's more EV than just a pure ICE car..

[indigo coral]

The E60 M5 is my favourite bmw, i just wish it wasn't so terribly unreliable

[dense shard]

Lamborghini is still using a bigass V12 last I heard.

[fathom socket]

did the M6 suffer from the same issue?

[fair bronze]

Fully electric is dumb, hybrid ftw

[indigo coral]

yes @fathom socket

[fathom socket]

damn

[dense shard]

And if the raging bull from Italy does more than a half ass electric motor in their next flagship... I'll be amazed.

[indigo coral]

afaik it used the same V10

[fathom socket]

ah that's right

makes sense

[indigo coral]

Still a damn cool car though.

[dense shard]

Aventador is V12

[fathom socket]

my fav

[indigo coral]

I also love the R63 xD

[fathom socket]

weird ass

car

damn cool nonetheless

[fair bronze]

I'm a big fan of the first generations of the Gallardo and Murcielago

[fathom socket]

i profoundly dislike lamborghini

[eager kite]

hybrid basically makes a worse system overall from 1 decent and 1 good technology

[dense shard]

They're the dumbest brand around.

And I love em for it.

[fair bronze]

Current Lamborghini is meh

[indigo coral]

hybrids have their place arial

[fathom socket]

how is hybrid something worst

[dense shard]

That's probably why I don't mind the Urus.

[fathom socket]

like for us petrolheads its worse but

its efficient

[dense shard]

Stupid name, but the car is fitting with the ethos of the company.

[indigo coral]

^^

[eager kite]

combines the problems of ICE with a weak electric system that has more losses

[fair bronze]

@eager kite It makes an ICE car way more efficient and still has the long range, fully electric cars don't

[dense shard]

Hybrids don't disagree with my love of cars.

[indigo coral]

some people can't go with a low cost EV

[dense shard]

Some of the coolest cars around right now are hybrids.

[indigo coral]

need more than like 100 miles of range

[fathom socket]

hybrids just beat the initial inertia

[indigo coral]

and a tesla is too expensive

[dense shard]

Gen 1 Insight for example.

[fathom socket]

with electrivity

[dense shard]

Hell the current Prius has some cool tech.

[indigo coral]

my friends parents got two Chevy Volts for 11k each and they love it

~50 miles of electric range every day

[fair bronze]

Hybrids are amazing, you get all the positive sides from both electric and ICE cars

[dense shard]

The Volt was a revolution... till Chevy killed em.

[indigo coral]

I admit, if I could find one for like 10k I'd get a ELR

kinda slow but it looks damn cool

[fathom socket]

here we have a local brand who made a small electric car for city usage

we aren't infrastructurally prepared for electical cars at all

but eh

its something

[indigo coral]

its progress

[fathom socket]

Argentina

[eager kite]

@fair bronze "way more efficient" still has all the problems with ICE vehicles though, and it's only decently more efficient if you are charging the car from the grid.

[dense shard]

But not as convenient.

[fair bronze]

@eager kite Name me some problems then

[eager kite]

with ICE?

[fathom socket]

afaik dont hybrids charge with the engine?

[dense shard]

Gas stations are universal.

[indigo coral]

Some people can't afford to buy two 40k Model 3 cars @eager kite

[fair bronze]

Yep

[eager kite]

lol where do I begin

[dense shard]

the price

[fair bronze]

You tell me

[dense shard]

nah hybrids are pretty great.

[indigo coral]

Getting two plugin hybrids for 22k that can 90% cover the daily commute

isn't bad

[eager kite]

https://haynes.com/en-us/car-manuals

[fair bronze]

Hybrids are amazing, change my mind

[dense shard]

okay

[fair bronze]

You can work on your own car if you like, is that a problem?

[dense shard]

They're heavier, cost more than other similarly price cars, and at current gas prices won't pay themselves back for a very long time. Also batteries have poor recyclability right now.

[eager kite]

Well, the problem is that you have to spend a ton of money maintaining the car so it doesn't kill itself

[dense shard]

Not that much.

[eager kite]

yea...

[fair bronze]

Not really no

[dense shard]

I have no upkeep costs for the first 4 years.

[indigo coral]

It's really not expensive

[fair bronze]

Modern cars are really not that expensive to maintain

[eager kite]

brakes, tires, oil, checks...

[dense shard]

...

[fathom socket]

how do hybrids kill themselves?

[indigo coral]

I've had my car for over a year and spent about 60 bucks on maintenence and stuff

[eager kite]

thousands of dollars a year

[dense shard]

You have to replace tires on a Tesla.

[indigo coral]

Lol arial

[fair bronze]

Electric cars have brakes, tires, suspension

[indigo coral]

only if you buy a bmw

[dense shard]

Tires need replacement.

[eager kite]

electric cars don't need brake or oil replacements

[dense shard]

As do brakes eventually.

[indigo coral]

My ancient crossover has cost me virtually nothing to own aside from gas and stuff

[eager kite]

not really no

[dense shard]

Oh they do if you drive it like you stole it.

Yeah, really.

[fair bronze]

@eager kite Yes they do

[eager kite]

nah

[indigo coral]

they do

[dense shard]

Tesla requires a brake check.

[eager kite]

Teslas don't need to use their brakes

ever

[indigo coral]

if you don't chnage your brakes you're in the running for a darwin award

lol

[fair bronze]

The brakes are literally the same

[dense shard]

They do.

All the time.

[indigo coral]

^^^

they do

[eager kite]

nope

[dense shard]

The regen doesn't do 100%.

yep.

Change my mind.

[eager kite]

yes they do lol

[dense shard]

If the tesla doesn't need brakes, why do they have em?

[fair bronze]

^

[dense shard]

It's something Tesla would drop if they didn't need it.

[fair bronze]

I was about to say that

[indigo coral]

^

[fair bronze]

Arial needs to come down to planet Earth

[eager kite]

https://twitter.com/tesla_addicted/status/1193021987452575744

Gabriel R. (@tesla_addicted)

Tesla is Definitely changing my driving habits... ladies and gentlemen here is one pedal Driving!!! (No brakes applied in this video) Thanks @elonmusk https://t.co/2uE3W1gA2Z

Likes

156

▶ Play video

Twitter

[indigo coral]

yeah

in that video

[dense shard]

one video

[eager kite]

no brakes used to go from moving to 0

[indigo coral]

they last LONGER than a gas car, but they still need to be routinely checked and replaced.

[eager kite]

on a flat road

[fair bronze]

It can brake on the electric motor, but that is in the most ideal situation

[dense shard]

Live in a hilly area.

You NEED brakes.

[eager kite]

nope lol

[indigo coral]

you do

[dense shard]

yeap lopol

[eager kite]

ever heard of the hold feature on a Tesla?

[dense shard]

My car has that.

[eager kite]

don't need brakes even on a hill

[dense shard]

How about slowing to a stop on a steep hill?

[indigo coral]

i live in a super hilly area, and drove a tesla. even letting it regen completely, you have to use the brakes to stop on a steep hill.

[eager kite]

don't need brakes

[dense shard]

Looks like Falcon has first hand experience here.

[fair bronze]

Guess what, you can also brake by letting go of the throttle in an ICE car and use the brakes for the last bit

[eager kite]

unless you need to like immediately stop

[dense shard]

I'll take his experience over you Arial.

[fair bronze]

Barely any wear that way

[dense shard]

Firsthand > twitter evidence

[eager kite]

Lmao I have experience of it never needing brakes on hills as well

I just don't have video of it

[indigo coral]

You can drive in most situations without brakes yes, but they ARE necessary even in a TEsla

[fair bronze]

Sure dude

[dense shard]

If I'm going up hill I don't need to use brakes.

I just burn my clutch out.

[fathom socket]

might just read this

https://www.quora.com/Why-dont-Tesla-vehicles-need-new-brakes

[dense shard]

I also have a hill hold feature.

Which uses brakes.

[fair bronze]

Just remove your brakes then, they just weigh the car down anyway

[eager kite]

sure in emergency situations you will use your brakes

but you basically will never need to replace them due to wear

[fair bronze]

They rust

[eager kite]

maybe if they are rusted out after 10 years of minimal use then you'll replace them

[fair bronze]

They already rust

I've seen a video

It's in Dutch though

[dense shard]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9h3W-0iWYvc

The service requires a brake check.

[fair bronze]

Besides, brakes aren't that expensive anyway

What is even the point

[dense shard]

Disk brakes are easy to do.

No more than a 100 dollars every few years?

[fair bronze]

And pretty inexpensive

https://youtu.be/qNd3miNU85k

[eager kite]

oh sure you're going to check them

[indigo coral]

unless you have carbon ceramics or something, brakes aren't even that expensive

all 4 rotors and pads for my RX are like

100 bucks

done

replace them at home, its hella easy

[fair bronze]

@indigo coral That's a real downside, maybe you should get a Tesla

[indigo coral]

totally

[dense shard]

I'll probably get OEM pads in the future.

[eager kite]

but like, checking the brakes =/= needing to replace them at the same rate of ICE cars

[dense shard]

uhhhhh

[indigo coral]

Big fucking deal?

unless you're stupid brakes last a long time

[dense shard]

We aren't denying EVs don't need to replace em as often.

[indigo coral]

^

[dense shard]

You are saying Tesla flat out never needs em changed.

[fair bronze]

Imma buy a Tesla because the brakes last longer

[dense shard]

We are disagreeing with that.

[eager kite]

For probably your entire ownership of the car yes

[dense shard]

And you still said tires.

Which is factually wrong.

Tesla tires don't wear slower.

[indigo coral]

damn, i have to spend 200 bucks once in the 10 years i own a car for a brake job

[dense shard]

Unless they have some weird super hard eco compound.

[eager kite]

like, over 11 years you probably won't need to replace your brakes

[indigo coral]

daaamannnn. made a big mistake buying THIS car.

That 200$ really killed it for me

[fair bronze]

Electric cars generally weigh more so tires wear down more quickly

[eager kite]

just more money you're loosing

[dense shard]

Investing.

I'm investing in my own safety.

[eager kite]

[dense shard]

So far you are the only one making bullshit claims.

teslas don't need brake changes don't need tire changes

[eager kite]

investing in safety

[dense shard]

Remember.

[eager kite]

if you were investing in safety, YOU WOULD BUY A TESLA

[fair bronze]

lol

[dense shard]

Lifetime fluid and consumables claims are bullshit.

[fathom socket]

why

swearing

[indigo coral]

You're the problem with Tesla, the senseless, absolute pigheaded, braindead fanboy who can't see past the end of elon's dick

[fathom socket]

:(

[eager kite]

aww someone's mad @indigo coral

[indigo coral]

Sorry to say, but you've lost this argument lol.

[fathom socket]

isnt he trolling?

[indigo coral]

200 bucks every 5 years isn't a crippling expense on a car

[dense shard]

I'm swearing because anyone who actually believes in lifetime oil needs to be slapped.

[fathom socket]

uh no

if you get mad you lose

[fair bronze]

Safety = quality tires, quality brakes

[fathom socket]

simple as that

[dense shard]

JD gets it.

[fathom socket]

cant keep it civilized

[dense shard]

I mean a shitty response image is pushing civil.

[indigo coral]

Trust me, this prick has been here far longer than he's been welcome.

[fair bronze]

I hate it when I see cars for sale with cheap tires

[fathom socket]

https://tenor.com/bcOg8.gif

[dense shard]

Cheap tires are dangerous.

As are cheap brakes.

[fair bronze]

They sure are

[eager kite]

Safety = low likelihood of getting into accidents and if you do, getting the least injured

[dense shard]

This is a PSA.

[fair bronze]

I'd change them immediately

[dense shard]

same

[fathom socket]

off for dinner

[indigo coral]

Cheap tires are a good way to die

[fathom socket]

see ya

[dense shard]

I'm sticking to OEM.

[indigo coral]

Which is kind of hypocritical of me because I don't have exactly the best tires, but they're not that bad.

[fair bronze]

You don't have to have the very best, as long as they're decent

[dense shard]

Speaking of which need new wiper blades.

[eager kite]

Getting a shitty ICE car that if you get into a crash will likely result in you getting injured I wouldn't call investing in safety, even if you take care to replace your breaks regularly

[fair bronze]

That is important too

[dense shard]

shitty ice car

[indigo coral]

simple answer, don't buy a shitty ice car

get a nice one.

[dense shard]

Most modern cars meet safety standards.

[eager kite]

well in terms of safety all ICE cars are less safe than Teslas so...

[dense shard]

So you won't "likely get injured"

[indigo coral]

^

[fair bronze]

Prove it

[dense shard]

I've been in 3 crashes.

[indigo coral]

Plenty of people get injured in Teslas too

[fair bronze]

Facts and logic

[dense shard]

I was unscathed each time.

[indigo coral]

Like running under a semi truck while watching a movie on a portable DVD player 😮

[dense shard]

My anecdote trumps the news where people have died in Teslas.

[indigo coral]

Those charts are disingenuous at best

[fair bronze]

That doesn't say anything

[eager kite]

the stats are still valid

[fair bronze]

I see no stats

[indigo coral]

Probability of injury is highly dependent on the unique accident situation

[dense shard]

Stats can be played with.

[indigo coral]

Those stats are meaningless

[eager kite]

% chance of injury lowest in Model 3

[indigo coral]

Nope. Can easily be manipulated.

[eager kite]

lol ok, you know better than NHTSA as to why they test for it

[indigo coral]

EX: Model 3 vs Semi Truck

You're fucked in a model 3

[eager kite]

Nope lol

[indigo coral]

Lol what

[dense shard]

Teslas are safer, but that doesn't mean your risk of injury is nil.

Nor does it mean a Corolla will literally kill you if you crash.

You are making sweeping statements Arial.

[fair bronze]

You're only showing stats for the Model 3, I see no stats for the safest ICE car

[dense shard]

And people aren't taking kindly to that.

[fair bronze]

Nothing to compare to

[eager kite]

https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-model-3-crash-insight-60mph-collision/

frontal crash at 60mph

[dense shard]

uhhhh

[eager kite]

driver walked away 0 injuries

[indigo coral]

mk? lots of cars have survived that

[dense shard]

I've seen a 70s Mercedes in a similar crash.

Everyone walked away.

[fair bronze]

Happened with lots of ICE cars too

[dense shard]

It was in a museum and everything.

[indigo coral]

hell, my mom's old Ford Five Hundred kept us safe in a significant crash

[dense shard]

Mercedes was very smug about it as well.

[eager kite]

https://bgr.com/2017/05/23/tesla-crash-photos-walk-away/

T-boned at 45mph by suv, 0 injuries

[fair bronze]

Listen dude, we're not saying Teslas are unsafe, they just aren't safer than normal cars

[dense shard]

https://www.iihs.org/ratings/vehicle/honda/insight-4-door-sedan/2019

[fair bronze]

Yes they are safe

[dense shard]

IIHS top safety pick PLUS

[indigo coral]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.engadget.com/amp/2019/05/01/tesla-autopilot-lawsuit-model-x/

[dense shard]

Same rating as a Tesla Model 3 I believe.

now now Falcon.

Let's not look at news that disagrees with a thing we're trying to shill.

[fair bronze]

That doesn't look safe to me

Must be fake news

[dense shard]

hush now, so safe

[indigo coral]

yeah, made by short sellers

[dense shard]

If that was an ICE car they'd be dead over twice!

twice I tell you.

[fair bronze]

#blessed

[eager kite]

That Model x crash had a safety feature missing because of a prior accident which the driver got into

[dense shard]

https://www.iihs.org/ratings/top-safety-picks

[eager kite]

and knew the risks of driving w/out it

[dense shard]

Actually there are a lot of top safety pick pluses.

[eager kite]

that's the problem with giving those blanket awards

[dense shard]

Tesla got one?

[eager kite]

it doesn't tell you which ones are actually safer

[fair bronze]

What problem?

They are all safe

[dense shard]

Because there is no "safer" car.

They all did equally well according to metrics.

[eager kite]

yes there is

no they didn't lol

[dense shard]

You can crash a car a million times, and get different results a million times.

In order to get top safety pick you have to meet certain requirements.

[eager kite]

If you scored high enough on their tests you get that rating

[dense shard]

That's the point.

[fair bronze]

Pretty much

[eager kite]

so there are differentiations between the cars

and some are safer than others

[dense shard]

The IIHS is not a contest.

[eager kite]

the rating doesn't give you that though

[dense shard]

It's a standardized tests to see which automakers meets it.

Not who wins a contest.

[eager kite]

Sure, so not useful in determining which car is actually the safest

[dense shard]

No, it determines which cars are safe.

Or safer.

[fair bronze]

You can still die in any car

[dense shard]

And safest.

[eager kite]

This is why Tesla gives NHTSA testing data on the likelihood of injury in their cars

so you can actually see that their cars are the safest

[indigo coral]

Lol

So they're giving the nhtsa fake days

Data*

[eager kite]

not just

"oh, I got 5 starts I'm as good as everyone else"

[indigo coral]

You can't say that a car will be safer in every situation

[eager kite]

if you care about safety you want a car that is very safe, not just, "safe enough"

[fair bronze]

They are all very safe

[eager kite]

That's why its a probability statement lol @indigo coral

[dense shard]

NHTSA doesn't always test all the cars.

[eager kite]

but you can't know how safe @fair bronze

[dense shard]

And a lot of the NHTSA tests aren't done by the organization.

Tesla is the safest they've tested, but there could be a safer car on the road.

[fair bronze]

@eager kite You never can

[dense shard]

Mind you according to the NHTSA they refuse to give a crown to anyone.

[eager kite]

so until it's tested and anyone can know about it, then if you're interested in safety you buy the safest car

[fair bronze]

The only way is to crash them yourself and find out which one kills you first

[eager kite]

what?

[fair bronze]

Then you decide

[eager kite]

that's so not how testing works dude

[dense shard]

Sure it is.

[eager kite]

No it's not lol

[fair bronze]

Mhm

[dense shard]

It's not very ethical.

But it works.

[eager kite]

"hey, the only way to test to see if you fell from this height if you would die is if you jump and see"

[fair bronze]

Gives you 100% trustable data

[dense shard]

Safety tests are based on chances of not dying.

So if you die, that's a pretty solid data point.

[eager kite]

like no lol this is why we do testing with equipment to measure the results

[dense shard]

We do now, sure.

[eager kite]

and we can compare the results to known characteristics of humans

and come up with a probability of injury for the car

[dense shard]

And in the case of the IIHS tests.

[fair bronze]

You don't sound very human though

[dense shard]

Cars that meet the safety plus rating have a very low probability of injury.

[eager kite]

how low

can you give me the number?

[dense shard]

no more than you can give me numbers when I ask for em.

[eager kite]

cause I can get NHTSA data

[dense shard]

NHTSA doesn't test headlights.

Or LATCH points.

[eager kite]

irrelevant to crash injury ratings

[dense shard]

But relevant to preventing crashes.

Which is factored into a car's safety rating.

Crash prevention is also very important.

[eager kite]

again, the IIHS is just setting an arbitrary bar and giving any car that passes it their sticker

[dense shard]

Because the best way to survive a crash is to not have it.

[eager kite]

no actual data

[dense shard]

They have lots of data.

[eager kite]

ok, then present it

[dense shard]

They use test dummies, and data.

okay

[eager kite]

where's the link to the spreadsheet of statistics on the car

[dense shard]

https://www.iihs.org/ratings/about-our-tests/test-protocols-and-technical-information

You'd probably have to ask the directly for it.

Or find it yourself.

Instead of relying on confirmation bias.

[fair bronze]

We still haven't heard anything about your original statement though, "electric cars are safer than ICE cars"

Tesla isn't the only brand who makes them, you know

[dense shard]

Actually link I gave is a pretty great breakdown.

[eager kite]

No I'm not asking for safety protocols

I'm asking for crash result data from a car

[fair bronze]

Is this what people become when they get obsessed about Tesla

Doesn't seem healthy

[eager kite]

I mean, inherently in the design of an EV you have more of an ability to add safety features

you have way more crumple space in the front for example

[dense shard]

prove it

[fair bronze]

I still only hear you talk about Tesla

[eager kite]

bruh

[dense shard]

You say things, and never prove it.

[eager kite]

that's true for all EVs

[dense shard]

enough bruhs

[eager kite]

not just Teslas

[dense shard]

The Leaf hasn't done well in tests.

[eager kite]

sure, that means Nissan designed it poorly

[dense shard]

That horrid BYD thing that was sold in the US a few years back was utter dreck.

true for all EVs

Nissan did it badly

[eager kite]

yes, all EVs have more crumple space in the front of the car

[dense shard]

Your cognitive dissonance is giving me whiplash

[fair bronze]

Mmm look at that BIG crumple zone

[eager kite]

so, if you have an incompetent design team that can't use that to their advantage then I'm sorry but that's just bad car design

[dense shard]

more metal up front means safer

ok boomer

[eager kite]

more open space = more crumple space to reduce force on passengers

[dense shard]

A well designed car doesn't have that issue.

[eager kite]

yes it does lol

[dense shard]

Automakers literally build with that in mind.

[fair bronze]

Has nothing to do with a car being an EV or not

[dense shard]

The engine isn't just "oh we can't adjust for that."

Engines are built with crashing in mind.

[eager kite]

yes, and it's a hassle to do with a massive ICE engine in the front

[dense shard]

They're made to slide down and under if the crash is bad enough.

Hassle or not, automakers design for it.

EVs are also heavier. meaning they have vastly more inertia.

Meaning they NEED that extra crumple space to compensate for more energy being imparted.

[eager kite]

You need a firewall, you need a way to drop the engine out of the way so there's MORE CRUMPLE SPACE, you need to have a system to make sure none of the other elements inside the front don't puncture through your firewall...

There's a lot of engineering there

[dense shard]

Yes, cars have a lot of that.

Engineering.

[fair bronze]

Next to that, the batteries make them possibly highly unsafe after an accident due to the high voltage

[dense shard]

Much in the same way Tesla put a lot of engineering into their battery pack not exploding when hitting a rock on the road.

[fair bronze]

Firefighters have to learn how to cut open an EV safely

[dense shard]

Both EV and ICE automakers put a lot of engineering into their cars to make them safe.

[eager kite]

whereas, in an EV, you don't need a firewall because there's no combustion in front of you, you don't need to drop a massive block of aluminum out of the way in the crash because you already have the crumple space, and there's very little in the front of the car to need to protect against coming into the cabin

[dense shard]

EVs have firewalls as structural elements.

There's no empty space.

[fair bronze]

The combustion is underneath your seat in an EV

[eager kite]

oh man

[dense shard]

Unless you want to see your car twist around like a noodle.

[fair bronze]

When the battery releases all of its energy in one go

[dense shard]

Makes for cool videos tho

[eager kite]

ok, so yes, there is a lot of open space in the front of an EV, you can look at Teslas, leafs, etc for that

[dense shard]

Rich Rebuilds has a few funny ones.

[fair bronze]

Have you seen what lithium batteries can do?

[dense shard]

Yes.

[eager kite]

There is still structural elements yes but there isn't a fucking block of aluminum in there waiting to become a battering ram

[dense shard]

Be used as a mod in GTA V.

[fair bronze]

Or even better, a block of steel

You know they also design the car in such a way that the engine isn't a ram

[eager kite]

I mean yea it drops partially out of the way in the crash

still is there though

[fair bronze]

Cars have bumpers

[eager kite]

still have to do a ton of engineering so it doesn't come into the cabin

[fair bronze]

Behind the plastic bumper is a metal one

Even in a Tesla

[eager kite]

yes of course

it still doesn't change the fact that in an ICE vehicle you have a heavy and sturdy af block of aluminum sitting between you and the thing you're crashing into

it reduces the available crumple zone

and doesn't really absorb that much energy in an impact

[dense shard]

That's not how crumple zones work.

[eager kite]

just transfers it to the rest of the vehicle

[dense shard]

The engine is literally made to tear away and slide under the car.

It's not part of the structure during a crash.

[eager kite]

on cars that have enough ground clearance sure

most cars don't have that much ground clearance though

[dense shard]

The car can ride up on top of the engine.

Trust me. Automakers have planned for this.

[eager kite]

what no that's not how that works

[dense shard]

They've had 50 years to do so.

[fair bronze]

Yes it is

[dense shard]

It really is.

[eager kite]

if you get into a frontal crash, your front end doesn't really lift up a foot into the air to get the engine under it

[fair bronze]

Where else do you think the engine goes

[dense shard]

No, but the engine pushes the car up if you are going fast enough.

[fair bronze]

It doesn't stay in place

[eager kite]

and by then, the impact has already happened and the force has already been transferred to the people

[dense shard]

Though at those speeds your injuries rely on a higher power and karma.

[eager kite]

doesn't matter that the engine falls out afterwards

[dense shard]

In any car.

[eager kite]

no not at all lol

[fair bronze]

It doesn't "fall out afterwards"

[dense shard]

lol what

[eager kite]

it comes down to good engineering or bad engineering

[dense shard]

There is no bad engineering in modern cars.

Only increasingly stringent standards.

You either meet em, or you work towards meeting them.

[eager kite]

yes there absofuckinglutely is bad engineering

[dense shard]

Or in the case of a few makers... finding ways around them. 🤔

But it's all clever engineering.

[eager kite]

no, there's good engineering, ok engineering, and bad engineering

[dense shard]

uhuh

sure

[eager kite]

good engineering is something like good safety systems that have a low chance of probability of injury

[fair bronze]

There surely is bad engineering but it's not available in the civilised part of the world

[eager kite]

ok engineering is when the thing works but not amazingly, there is room for improvement

[dense shard]

Let's focus on the US market as I'm sure that's all we're qualified to actually talk about.

[indigo coral]

cars have to pass safety standards to be sold in the usa

[eager kite]

and bad engineering is when it faisl

[dense shard]

At least till MK gets here.

[eager kite]

and there is absolutely bad engineering

[fair bronze]

MK is asleep

[dense shard]

Automakers don't just sit there and let their cars fail.

They work to fixing them.

[eager kite]

and in the mean time ppl die

[dense shard]

Like in Teslas.

[fair bronze]

Oh no

[eager kite]

nope

[dense shard]

But then Tesla updated their shit.

[indigo coral]

yep

[dense shard]

yeah

[eager kite]

like in the majority of cars

[dense shard]

People have died in Teslas.

[indigo coral]

people have died in teslas

LOL

[dense shard]

jinx

[eager kite]

Way more ppl die per capita in ICE cars lol

[dense shard]

Let's not shift the goal posts here.

[indigo coral]

thats cause theres millions more ICE cars lol

[fair bronze]

Because there are way more of them

[eager kite]

oh there's no goalpost shifting there

[dense shard]

oh there is

[eager kite]

one kills way more people than others

[fair bronze]

There is still no logic to your statements

[dense shard]

To think.

[eager kite]

and, one doesn't get better over time

[dense shard]

That some day in the future.

ICE will be safer than EV.

Because fewer people will die per capita.

[eager kite]

is idiotic

I agree

ICE will never be safer than EV

fundamental technology prohibits it

[dense shard]

lol uhuh

[fair bronze]

Still makes no sense what you are saying

[dense shard]

But no. There will be a time statically speaking EVs will kill more.

[eager kite]

ok

if you have a technology

[dense shard]

Statistics don't lie.

[eager kite]

and for ever unit you make

it kills 2 people

[dense shard]

2.0 K/D

Not bad.

[eager kite]

and someone else is making a different technology

and it kills only 1 person per unit

even if you sold 20x more of the second one

[fair bronze]

The only difference between EV and ICE is how it's powered, there is no reason for one to be safer than the other

[eager kite]

the amount of people dying in total by it would be higher

[dense shard]

...

[eager kite]

but the per capita rate would be lower

[dense shard]

Joe Rogan would be impressed with that analogy.

https://tenor.com/view/elon-musk-smoke-smoking-well-maybe-gif-12516944

[eager kite]

meaning each individual unit would be safer

[dense shard]

PSA: don't smoke drugs kiddies

[eager kite]

in the same way, ICE cars are less safe than EVs, because ICE cars kill more people per capita

[dense shard]

and adulties

[eager kite]

also, ice cars require gas

and I do love a good firework show when a gas station goes boom

[fair bronze]

Have fun living in your own dreamworld

[dense shard]

Which is almost never.

[eager kite]

or when an oil tanker goes boom

[dense shard]

I think more people get electrocuted yearly than incinerated in a gas station blaze.

[fair bronze]

PSA: electric chargers catch fire too

[eager kite]

or when an oil spill contaminates a massive area of the world

[fair bronze]

PSA: batteries contain dangerous and harmful chemicals

[eager kite]

then don't eat them

[fair bronze]

Why would you even think of that in the first place

[eager kite]

well, you were presenting it as something revolutionary

[fair bronze]

Don't drink gasoline

[eager kite]

so

I assumed that you needed to be told

but yea

in total

one is far less safe than the other

one has way more space to advance and become even safer

and one is using an outdated and dying technology that will be left to history

[fair bronze]

I'm just saying, they both have their ups and downs, none is better than the other

[dense shard]

For the time being at any rate.

[fair bronze]

"Outdated and dying"

lmao

[eager kite]

yea man

ever looked at ICE sales charts recently?

[fair bronze]

Here we go again

[dense shard]

Still out numbers EVS 100:1.

[eager kite]

funny how they are down in every category that EVs are in

[dense shard]

you mean cars?

Yeah weird.

[fair bronze]

If EVs were as perfect as you think they are, everyone would own them by now

[eager kite]

like, the only categories that are unaffected for the most part are pickup trucks and SUVs

because there's no good EV pickup truck yet

[dense shard]

And there never will be.

[fair bronze]

Not a good one anyway

[eager kite]

and there aren't any mass produced EV SUVs yet

thankfully both of those are changing

[dense shard]

ah yes.

[eager kite]

relatively soon

[dense shard]

Nothing like mall crawling in an SUV that's electric.

[fair bronze]

So what is the Model X then

Whale on wheels?

[eager kite]

a low production expensive SUV

[dense shard]

Still an SUV.

[eager kite]

sure

but not being mass produced

and is very expensive

which is why it doesn't really compete with the entire SUV market

[fair bronze]

I'd still call it mass production

[dense shard]

I think it is considered as such.

[fair bronze]

Audi makes the E-Tron now

Mercedes has the EQC

Just to name some

[eager kite]

like, 1 SUV that in a good year has 27K produced isn't going to be competing much with a market where millions of ICE SUVs are made each year

[dense shard]

Ford did make a pick up truck years ago.

[fair bronze]

Now why would that be

[dense shard]

An electric Ranger I believe.

[eager kite]

Bruh, the Etron and EQC have a percentage of the production numbers the Model X has

there's no mass production EV SUV yet

[dense shard]

They literally started this year.

[fair bronze]

Tell me why

[eager kite]

because they are made in limited quantity with a high price tag currently

[fair bronze]

Tell me why

[eager kite]

your average US family isn't going to spend 80K+ on a car

Because no one has made it yet

that's why

it's coming

but not here yet

[fair bronze]

So why has no one made one yet

[eager kite]

well, because Tesla hasn't started mass production of the Model Y yet

[fair bronze]

Yes, everyone is waiting for Tesla

[dense shard]

Are we really calling all these electric things SUVs?

[eager kite]

And Tesla is at the forefront of high quality long range cheaper EVs

[dense shard]

crossovers... sure

But SUVs?

[eager kite]

ok, it's basically the same thing

[dense shard]

not really

[eager kite]

people call crossovers SUVs and SUVs crossovers all the time

[dense shard]

People are wrong.

[eager kite]

your average consumer doesn't know the difference

sure

but that doesn't matter when talking about people buying the car

The model Y is basically a better model 3 in some ways, and we've seen the demand for the 3

And, the Y will be in the most popular class of cars in the US currently

so, chances are that they won't have a problem selling hundreds of thousands of them a year in both the US and China, and in a couple years Europe

(from their respective gigafactories)

[fair bronze]

Why in a couple years Europe

We already have them here

[eager kite]

cause that's when the Europe giga will probably start producing cars

well model 3s yes

[fair bronze]

Not just 3s

[eager kite]

not yet model Y in europe

[fair bronze]

Not yet Model Y anywhere

[eager kite]

Well we've seen model Ys around in the States

test cars

[fair bronze]

Mhm

[eager kite]

one was going up to detroit

[fair bronze]

Good for them

[eager kite]

but yea, so a couple years b4 europe giga is going and producing probs 1/2 a mil cars a year, you'll have the china giga also doing more than 1/2 a mil cars, and in the US they prob will start building out another factory cause Freemont's getting a lil crowded

[fair bronze]

Yes they get sold more and more but they're still a minority for a long, long time

It's a hype

Of course automakers want to catch the hypetrain

[eager kite]

Well no auto manufacturer is a majority producer

but yea, Tesla will grow over time to be one of the big ones

and, I have serious doubts than many of these car manufacturers will be able to shift over in any successful way

or at least not bankrupting themselves in the process

Toyota just announced though that they are putting some money into EV R&D so good that they won't kill themselves down the hydrogen route

[fair bronze]

They shouldn't "shift over" because it's a hype

That would be their death and they know it

The only place where an EV is actually a better option is in a big, congested city

The world is so much bigger than that

[eager kite]

Um

EVs are better in all environments

and the car companies literally need to shift over

otherwise they are going to go out of business

[fair bronze]

That would be the case if everyone wanted an EV

Most people don't

Next to that, they aren't "better in all environments"

[eager kite]

well, a lot of european countries have set dates where the new sales of ICE cars are banned

[fair bronze]

Those are only proposals

[eager kite]

No

they aren't proposals

[fair bronze]

Yes

[eager kite]

they are law

[fair bronze]

They're proposals from green parties

There is no law

[fair bronze]

Like that's gonna happen

[eager kite]

oh wait the list has actually expanded since I grabbed that screenshot

[fair bronze]

Where does it say these 'bans' are all permanent

It's a hype

[eager kite]

so, if these traditional car companies want to sell in China, France, Netherlands, Norway, UK, Sri Lanka, Ireland, Iceland, Israel, Sweden, and Denmark, they are going to switch

[fair bronze]

Nope

[eager kite]

yep

[vital glen]

@eager kite uhhh...

[fair bronze]

These are still proposals

[eager kite]

nope

[fair bronze]

It is not 2030 yet

[vital glen]

to my knowledge costa rica's is not law

[eager kite]

they are planned

not proposals

[fair bronze]

Planned so not permanent

[eager kite]

proposals mean that they might be implemented

[vital glen]

they are goals

[eager kite]

like, it's up to the govt to pass if it will or not

[fair bronze]

My point is still valid

[eager kite]

this is legislation already passed

and on these times the current legislation is that the sales will be banned

[fair bronze]

They won't be

[eager kite]

you can believe that but car companies aren't believing that

[fair bronze]

Oh yes they are

[eager kite]

Ford, GM, Audi, VW, Porsche, and more are finally developing EVs and alternative fuel cars

they aren't taking the narrative that it won't get banned

[fair bronze]

Because of the hype around them

Everyone wants to be popular

[eager kite]

passenger vehicles are one of the largest polluting sources in the US and Europe

[vital glen]

They can't afford to not make evs with a market slowly shifting towards evs regardless of proposed legisliation @eager kite

[eager kite]

they absolutely will be banning gas cars

@vital glen agreed

[vital glen]

It's not because the president of the countries are saying we want to

[fair bronze]

Actually it's not that at all lol

It's mostly farming

[eager kite]

@vital glen well, the countries are forcing the companies to follow the public support

[vital glen]

no

[eager kite]

yes

[vital glen]

I am looking at the sources listed in the wikipedia entry

[eager kite]

the countries are saying that they are going to ban sales on x date

[vital glen]

They don't saw laws

just a speech

saying they want to

[fair bronze]

They are saying that

[eager kite]

which one @vital glen

[fair bronze]

What are politicians known for exactly

[vital glen]

costa rica, denmark, france

so far

unless I am mistaken

[fair bronze]

The fact that you believe what politicians are saying is quite something on its own

[dense shard]

So that's why PSA merged with FCA... to leverage FCA's rich history of making EVs.

no wait.

[eager kite]

French one was part of their legislation

[fair bronze]

@dense shard lmao

[dense shard]

lol

[fair bronze]

Good point

[dense shard]

We'll see how well legislation will work out.

Forced emissions fucked over the US auto industry in the 70s.

On top of the auto industry doing themselves in.

[fair bronze]

It was a total shitshow back then

[dense shard]

It really was.

[eager kite]

PCA FCA merger is so they don't both die

[dense shard]

A perfect storm. Amazing that so many survived the 70s and 80s.

PSA and FCA aren't in danger of dying.

[fair bronze]

^

[dense shard]

But the merger will leave both in a better place to survive another crash.

[eager kite]

then why merge?

[fair bronze]

Now they're even bigger

[dense shard]

To spread costs and allow for more corners to be cut.

[fair bronze]

Why do you think everything is dying

[eager kite]

They wouldn't do that unless necessary

[dense shard]

Neither brand is a bastion of reliable, durable, or good transportation.

[fair bronze]

It could bring them both major advantages

[eager kite]

the amount of money needed to combine the 2 together is pretty large

[dense shard]

not really.

[eager kite]

so even if they can cut a few more corners, it isn't financially beneficial in the short term at all

[dense shard]

This deal right now is more of a Nissan/Renault type deal.

[fair bronze]

Automakers do this all the time to increase profit and decrease cost, that's just business

[dense shard]

And in the future the two... three... dozen auto brands under the umbrella will be able to leverage common engines and platforms cutting costs significantly.

[vital glen]

look at vw

[dense shard]

Look at Ford.

[fair bronze]

Look at PSA

[dense shard]

or in this case Ford and VW are working together to develop a new van and work truck.

[fair bronze]

Engines get shared all the time

[dense shard]

or jointly developed.

[eager kite]

why not merge 5 years ago?

[fair bronze]

Or that

[eager kite]

if it was financially beneficial for them to do so

[dense shard]

Because no one wanted to merge with FCA 5 years ago.

[eager kite]

because there was no need to

[dense shard]

I'm not sure why PSA agreed to it this time.

[fair bronze]

Business changes

[dense shard]

bullshit

FCA has been trying to merge with anyone since 2010.

[eager kite]

there's a reason to do it now

[dense shard]

It was quarterly news that FCA was courting someone to merge with.

GM, VW, Ford... the French.

[fair bronze]

There is always a reason, but bad business doesn't have to be the reason

[dense shard]

Sergio was all in to cut costs.

It's why the Chrysler 200 didn't make it a full 5 year cycle.

[fair bronze]

Tesla didn't make any profit until recently

[eager kite]

not true

[dense shard]

It's why FCA still makes the LH cars.

Free money.

All development costs have long since been paid down.

[fair bronze]

The first Tesla was based on the Lotus Elise

[dense shard]

good times

[fair bronze]

Tesla Model S shared a lot of parts with Mercedes in the beginning too

Not sure if they still do though

It's not that uncommon

My point: if there is any way for a business to cut costs and improve production efficiency, they will do it

[dense shard]

yep

And it's led to pretty great results.

[fair bronze]

Mhm

[dense shard]

Like the new Corolla.

[fair bronze]

What about it?

Love that car btw

[eager kite]

sure, but merging 2 companies together isn't a cheap thing to do

[dense shard]

But the benefits save more money.

[fair bronze]

You know how business works

[eager kite]

in the long run maybe

[dense shard]

That's the idea.

The long run is the goal.