math-and-meta

[limpid narwhal]

pretty much lmao

when i get drones i will become bezos

[thorn bane]

i just build everything in 1 place

[limpid narwhal]

now that i think of it, i should've started in the desert as i'm using refined power

[frosty pawn]

i cant build everything in 1 place because 1 place is never big enough

[limpid narwhal]

the only problem with the desert is the initial start with biomass burners

[frosty pawn]

i have the whole map, im gonna use it

[celest urchin]

Yeah I plan on building my final factory in the Desert.

[frosty pawn]

there is a nice area south west of the sand in dune desert which is full of wood

also the oasis in northeast has lots of foliage

[limpid narwhal]

yep

[frosty pawn]

and the beach also has a lot of foliage

ewwww flying factory yuck

[limpid narwhal]

yeah i'm gonna tear it down

[thorn bane]

ye i always build up in the sky so i dont have to deal with terrain xD

[limpid narwhal]

just temp rubber/plastic

[frosty pawn]

but terrain is the fun part :<

[celest urchin]

That's smart.

[limpid narwhal]

skybases are convenient but they get boring after a while

[frosty pawn]

they get boring immediately

[limpid narwhal]

i like building with the terrain where i can

[frosty pawn]

if my foundation is not clipping the terrain it's not low enough

[thorn bane]

1 big factory
#screenshots message
using a bus
#screenshots message
using spaghetti
#screenshots message
using trains

[limpid narwhal]

i like buses but i can't bring myself to use them in this game

[frosty pawn]

all of those screenshots look super boring

[limpid narwhal]

it just doesn't feel right

[celest urchin]

THE TRUCKS ALWAYS GET STUCK!

[thorn bane]

well i just dont care about the asthetic part of the game i only go for efficiency

[celest urchin]

IT IS SO ANNOYING!

[limpid narwhal]

this is getting fixed in update 5

[frosty pawn]

might as well just delete the map and have only one giant square of foundations

[limpid narwhal]

the trucks*

[limpid narwhal]

god if only

[celest urchin]

They always flip over and run themselves out of gas.

[frosty pawn]

i can't allow it. hannah would cry.

[celest urchin]

ALWAYS!

[frosty pawn]

well theyre getting fixed in update 5

[celest urchin]

I tried building a train system.... But holy hell it's hard.

[limpid narwhal]

trucks are now gonna calculate the required amount of fuel for their trip and wait to fill up enough

[frosty pawn]

the hard thing with trains is how big the stations have to be

[limpid narwhal]

and if they get stuck they'll try other routes to get to their next node

if there's none they will just phase through the ground until they get to the next one

i never use them in their current state, but they should become a lot more usable soon

[celest urchin]

A train in between those two red circles is FARRRR

[limpid narwhal]

heh

[frosty pawn]

not far for a train

[thorn bane]

what roundtrip is that roughly? anyone know

[limpid narwhal]

maybe 2km?

probably less

[thorn bane]

*roundtrip time sorry

[limpid narwhal]

oh wait i see the two circles now

[frosty pawn]

also the train line transmits power so those two sites can share power supply

[limpid narwhal]

thought it was just between points on the top one

[celest urchin]

It's far...

[fierce ruin]

not anymore

in u5 that changes

[limpid narwhal]

pepsi this is my unfinished rail network

[celest urchin]

No. They flip over as soon as I'm anywhere near them and run themselves out of gas. Then by the time I actually do figure out what is wrong I'm on the other side of the map and I have to go back to the stupid truck.

Message @fierce ruin
Sorry meant to reply not DM you my B.

[limpid narwhal]

yeah it's not fixed yet

[upbeat tide]

Im busy making nuclear plants. 😦 half done tho

[limpid narwhal]

i think update 5 is due in 2-3 months?

will be fixed then

[thorn bane]

the issue i have with ore->product factories is that they never use 100% of the resources so that kinda feels inefficient to me

[fierce ruin]

that's gotta be a big then

bug*

[limpid narwhal]

they do if you load balance the incoming ores properly

[fierce ruin]

most likely before 2022, probs December

[thorn bane]

huh what do you mean

[upbeat tide]

You shouldnt be doing one product factories unless its a complex product and you have the previous steps with it

Like my heavy frames factory has every step in the same factory facility

[thorn bane]

well im doing fine just having 1 big factory

[limpid narwhal]

working down from the final product to see exactly how much of each raw material you need, and only bringing in that amount, sending the rest back into the network

or into a buffer

[celest urchin]

You have to get your ratio's perfect, and under clock some stuff.

But it is possible.

[upbeat tide]

Your gonna get into some FPS and lag issues eventually though just a heads up

[thorn bane]

but underclocking a miner is just not having 100% efficiency

[limpid narwhal]

in some cases it can never be perfect but you can get it within a few percent

[kind wigeon]

I usually just spaghetti the unused mats to other factories that need them

[celest urchin]

SEE THIS IS WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT!!!!

[limpid narwhal]

i think i'm gonna have drones collect the excess from factories and return them to ore supply stations

hahaha yeah drop trucks as soon as you can

unless you're gonna build roads for them

[kind wigeon]

I haven't unlocked drones yet in this save

[limpid narwhal]

they're just not reliable as is

[kind wigeon]

working through tier 4 rn

[limpid narwhal]

me neither, i'm probably not gonna stress about excess materials in the meantime

they can sit in the station buffer

[kind wigeon]

true true

[limpid narwhal]

at the end of the day every node is infinite so excess doesn't hurt anything but your eyes

and that can be avoided with load balancing to keep belts running smoothly

[thorn bane]

but there is no way you load balance multiple factories 100% correctly
that would be ore spaghetti like hell

[limpid narwhal]

the way i do things rn is i build factories in between the nodes i'm gonna need, and i clock the miners to bring in the exact amount needed

so for example my EIB factory brings in 480 iron/coal and 450 limestone

[thorn bane]

ok i just see a uncerclocked miner as wasted resources
i guess thats the difference

[limpid narwhal]

it is in the late game

[kind wigeon]

it's saving resources in mid-early game for power consumption

[celest urchin]

You mean Ore spaghetti like my first factory?

[limpid narwhal]

but you can always max it and split stuff off to whichever direction you want

[celest urchin]

@thorn bane

[thorn bane]

thats not ore

[limpid narwhal]

i don't want to see the ore part of that one

[thorn bane]

also i hate the fact that if you upgrade miners/get more slugs your factories would have to change

[celest urchin]

You can see the miners if you look real close.

[limpid narwhal]

see this is why i like the idea of separating the ore production from the factories

[kind wigeon]

pain

[limpid narwhal]

doesn't matter what rate it's going into storage at the station if the station is transporting it at a steady rate

[celest urchin]

Not if you upgrade the entire supply chain.

[celest urchin]

YES. THIS WAS PAINFUL!

[limpid narwhal]

ideally by the end of the game i'm gonna have every node 100% tapped and pumped into a station

[kind wigeon]

ugh I don't think I'm even gonna 100% the nodes

just gonna prep stuff for U5

[thorn bane]

that sounds unresonable

[limpid narwhal]

assuming mk3 miners at 250% on everything that should be 70380 iron ore/min, 28860 copper ore/min and 30120 coal/min

plenty to go round

[thorn bane]

that would be a 1000 car train or something

[kind wigeon]

limited to like 780/min by mk5 belts

[limpid narwhal]

yeah those are the limited numbers

if we could move 1200/min they'd be much higher

i think i'm gonna end up with a station for every two nodes honestly

[thorn bane]

there is no way you build a train that holds 70380 iron/min

[upbeat tide]

Once we get proper 1200/mon support it would be golden years

[kind wigeon]

yeah

[upbeat tide]

And nobody would

[limpid narwhal]

oh definitely not but it means that i have room to build more and more stations without running out of supply for them

[celest urchin]

Okay, now to save yourself a headache later on down the line. You need to figure out EXACTLY How you're going to process all that...

Before you even start building.

[limpid narwhal]

nah, i don't need to know where it's going

just need to have it there for when i want to build somehting

[kind wigeon]

to the sink it goes

[limpid narwhal]

in the meantime the buffer fills up and the miners power down

until i build a factory 3km away and tell a train to go bring me stuff

[celest urchin]

While this is always an option.

If you want a 100% efficient world. You need to know exactly what you're going to be building. And where each supply chain ends.

[limpid narwhal]

actually, how many power shards can you theoretically get

[thorn bane]

1431
but lizard doggos exist

[frosty pawn]

don't try to build a factory that will work in tier 8 if youre still in tier 3

[thorn bane]

100% efficient world is a myth

[celest urchin]

No that's an old screenshot.

[limpid narwhal]

oh yeah i forgot about doggo farms

[frosty pawn]

im not talking about the screenshot

im talking about "If you want a 100% efficient world. You need to know exactly what you're going to be building. And where each supply chain ends."

[celest urchin]

I'm in tier 5 & 6 atm.

[frosty pawn]

then build with what you have for what you need now

if you try to optimise in advance youre just wasting your own time

[kind wigeon]

I usually just build whatever I need at the moment and rebuild everything when I unlock new stuff ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[frosty pawn]

it's all gonna be obsolete when you reach that point anyway

[thorn bane]

thing is
you never reach that point

[frosty pawn]

this is the way

[limpid narwhal]

i'm not gonna try to make everything 100% efficient, there's always something that has to over or underproduce for that

i'm just gonna overcompensate in advance

factories should be efficient, ore production should be maximised

[frosty pawn]

yes, my point exactly. the future you imagine is a fantasy

[celest urchin]

I am. But there are only so many items/recipes... If you know ahead of time what to build, and how to build it. you can design a 100% efficient world.

[kind wigeon]

technically yes, but, practically, it's really not a good idea imo

[celest urchin]

This is true.

[wind spade]

100% efficiency is easy with underclocking

[celest urchin]

Also this is my point.

[thorn bane]

theres just too many things that change
like alt recepies
mk3 miners
mk5 belts

[frosty pawn]

you can only make the factory as efficient as your current recipes and resources allow. if you try to build with all the future stuff in mind, that means the present factory sucks and then when you reach that point in the future, it's not what you imagined and you basically always have a crap factory

even if you know all the alternate recipes by heart, that should only teach you one thing at the start of a new game: youre gonna rebuild everything later so just do the best you can with what you have at the moment

[kind wigeon]

speaking of alts, any optimized routes for hard drives?

implying I'm just gonna go around the world for a while collecting shit

[upbeat tide]

Nope just have to collect them

[limpid narwhal]

i just keep scim open and go to the nearest one each time i get one

[kind wigeon]

true true

[celest urchin]

If you know for instance that you're going to need 3900 screws/min. You can build around that. And so on and so fourth.

[limpid narwhal]

bring some biomass burners and biofuel along for the ones that need power

[frosty pawn]

unlock parachute and make some with stuff you pick up on your travels. they're great for covering large distances after climbing a high cliff.

[limpid narwhal]

you can plan in advance which resources to bring since scim shows you what you need for each one

[kind wigeon]

good idea

[limpid narwhal]

there are some that won't open as they need parts that aren't in the game yet

[celest urchin]

Scim?

[limpid narwhal]

https://satisfactory-calculator.com/en/interactive-map

[wind spade]

not really, depends where you start 😉

[limpid narwhal]

you can load your world save in to see which ones you've already grabbed

[frosty pawn]

if you dont need 3900 screws /min right now, youre wasting your time right now

[celest urchin]

OH THIS IS COOL

[limpid narwhal]

yeah it's super useful

it's where i got that map screenshot from earlier

#math-and-meta message

[kind wigeon]

fair enough, I just gotta find something to do while waiting for my manifolds to fill up lol

[limpid narwhal]

i've heard you can modify saves in it and move factories around? but idk how to do that

i don't want to look into it because if it does exist i will have wasted so many hours and i'd rather not know

[frosty pawn]

its easy. click stuff

[limpid narwhal]

man

[kind wigeon]

rebuilding is kinda cathartic idk if I wanna take that away from the game

[frosty pawn]

i use it to move foundations so they align to my head-canon world grid

[celest urchin]

Dude. think like an engineer. Work backwards. Figure out what the goal is first, and then figure out the best way to do it. If you work reactivity you're going to be rebuilding factories left right and center over and over and over again.

[frosty pawn]

the goal right now is to unlock the next thing.

[limpid narwhal]

it is until you build a 200 metre high wall around the entire map and you build 2km worth of it one space off

and then you spend 3 hours deconstructing it

[kind wigeon]

true

[celest urchin]

THIS

[limpid narwhal]

i am so glad the wall is done

[kind wigeon]

I'm not even gonna bother with mapwide stuff lol

[frosty pawn]

rebuilding factories over and over is the whole point of the game. that's why alternate recipes are random from hard drives

[celest urchin]

If you're going to fuck with mapwide stuff, you need a plan.

[kind wigeon]

my factories are localized around nodes and I'm planning on using trains for long range transport

[limpid narwhal]

i think my pc is too, placing like 8000 walls at once with smart mod brought me below 1fps

[celest urchin]

I personally am not. I just want to get to tier 7 & 8.

But if I ever DID want to mess with that. I know you have to have a plan.

[kind wigeon]

speaking of which, for throughput, would it be better to use multiple trains or just one big one?

[frosty pawn]

if you plan to rebuild it in the end, you wont be disappointed in the end when you find out all your plans were flawed

[celest urchin]

You don't need to rebuild if you design correctly in the first place.

[limpid narwhal]

trial and error with train length until you reach a point where the buffer isn't depleted by the time the train returns

[frosty pawn]

you cant design correctly in the first place because you dont have the recipes or resources

[limpid narwhal]

then decide whether you want a long one or two half the size

[kind wigeon]

I see

[limpid narwhal]

i think train length impacts their speed?

i can't recall how good the physics are

[kind wigeon]

welp gonna go try it out then

[frosty pawn]

when going up hill yes

[kind wigeon]

depends on how many locomotives it has, right?

[limpid narwhal]

do they get pushed further downhill with more carriages too?

faster*

[frosty pawn]

more locomotives can reduce the impact of upward slopes

[kind wigeon]

as long as it's under 1 locomotive:4 carts or something iirc

[wind spade]

you can just build each factory to be ore->final product and ignore the fact that the few small early game factories are not most efficient (or rebuild the few later)

[frosty pawn]

yes, this is the way

[limpid narwhal]

these two topics remind me of the biggest mistake i made in this save so far

my trains drive on the left, because i'm australian and that just feels right, but my spirals go to the right, meaning my trains have a longer trip going up and shorter trip going down

i haven't set any of them loose on the network yet so it's not too late to fix, but i don't know if i can be bothered

[frosty pawn]

if your trains drive like the cars on your streets, they should also use roundabouts the same way

[thorn bane]

flashback to me accidentally drawing a dick with train tracks

[kind wigeon]

"accidentally"

[limpid narwhal]

yeah i've done that a few times by accident, i forget what the double spirals look like top down

[celest urchin]

Why do you use spirals?

[limpid narwhal]

takes less space to descend or ascend

[frosty pawn]

reminds me of this

[kind wigeon]

instead of having 1 lane inside the other spiral, why not make it a double helix?

[limpid narwhal]

i can't wait to set like 50 trains loose on this line and just sit here watching this interchange

[limpid narwhal]

because that hurts my brain

[celest urchin]

Turn radius I think?

[frosty pawn]

i dunno why ppl dont just do really long ramps

[thorn bane]

it looks better imo

[celest urchin]

That's what I am doing. It should be the most power efficient.

[kind wigeon]

wouldn't be a problem if you just make it wider I don't think

[limpid narwhal]

it would take me like an entire kilometre to descend from the height i'm at

[frosty pawn]

like i get it if you need to go up a cliff but if youre just going up into the sky and then off in a straight line it seems like a waste of steel to make the trains travel a lot of unnecessary distance

[limpid narwhal]

you know what would be really cool as an alternative?

[celest urchin]

That would eventually turn into a spiral right?

[limpid narwhal]

train lifts

[celest urchin]

YES. WE NEED TRAIN LIFTS!

[empty glade]

It should be pretty easy to make ingots out of everything with 100% effieciency

[kind wigeon]

double helixes are technically just 2 spirals intertwined

[limpid narwhal]

they could have dynamic power draw depending on the weight of the train and the duration of travel

[kind wigeon]

I don't think the radius really matters

[frosty pawn]

yes, my point is the opposite. trying to plan your nuclear build while youre in tier 3 is a waste of time when you should be making progress toward unlocking nuclear

[limpid narwhal]

yeah

doesn't hurt to think ahead but you need to get there to put that into use

[frosty pawn]

me thinking ahead: how can i do this as quickly and efficiently as possible so i can dismantle it with the least amount of effort later?

[kind wigeon]

train lifts would be a godsend though

[celest urchin]

Okay. I'll do it for tier 5 & 6 so you can get the idea.

[frosty pawn]

it's called drones 😄

[kind wigeon]

but locomotive go choo choo

[thorn bane]

you dont just build 4000 refineries
every high end pc in the world is gonna have 1 fps with that

[kind wigeon]

drones just go brrrrwoosh

[frosty pawn]

but dron go brrrrr

[kind wigeon]

oh my god you just gave me an idea

train tracks, but connected with drones for when I don't wanna bother building up or down a cliff

[empty glade]

Trains brake at 200kph

[frosty pawn]

dont forget batteries

[kind wigeon]

true

[frosty pawn]

fuel for trucks is easier. with the update it should be easy to transport stuff from a large train station to satellite factories

[kind wigeon]

oh yeah I forgot about the truck changes

[frosty pawn]

im gonna have a paint canister factory

best fuel

[kind wigeon]

lmao

I hate manually collecting flowers though

[frosty pawn]

it's my favourite

make green fields green again

[fierce ruin]

Paint the fields light blue-green with the blood of doggos.

[kind wigeon]

I usually start at the desert

for muh water, somewhat ironically

[fierce ruin]

[frosty pawn]

good, so then you havent already used some of the flowers for biomass generators. more for your trucks

[kind wigeon]

you're not wrong

[frosty pawn]

i really hope U5 has a lawnmower vehicle

[kind wigeon]

or one of those big tree cutting trucks

[empty glade]

Yes, "what is efficiency"? Is it progressing faster in the game, or making more stuff with resources, or making more stuff with resources in less time? Or something else entirely?

[bleak coral]

it's just matching inputs to outputs in general

[frosty pawn]

efficiency is measured by:
a: using resources with minimal waste
b: producing at the highest speed AKA in the least amount of time

TL;DR dont waste time

[bleak coral]

there's also power efficiency, resource efficiency, and space efficiency, which is using as little of those as possible while making the same output

[kind wigeon]

mmmmm deforestation

[bleak coral]

and they generally compete with each other

[frosty pawn]

you said basically what i said. power is a resource, so is space and time

[kind wigeon]

I always have trouble with space efficiency ngl I just make em look good

[fierce ruin]

Efficiency is measured by FIRST

[kind wigeon]

gotta space things just right

[frosty pawn]

spacing things right

[kind wigeon]

see that's great

[wind spade]

I like this setup but turned 90 degrees

[kind wigeon]

I like that

[fierce ruin]

Oh them being out of alignment bothers me so, so much....

[bleak coral]

I like it

[wind spade]

I mean like this

E-+  G  G  G  G
  +--+--+--+--+
E-+
  +--+--+--+--+
E-+  G  G  G  G

[kind wigeon]

personally I would've done the pipes like this though

[frosty pawn]

but they are aligned. theyre aligned by their conveyors

[fierce ruin]

🤢

[kind wigeon]

or this

[frosty pawn]

those long pipes go under the foundation so it looks much neater in game :p

[kind wigeon]

ah okay that's fair

[frosty pawn]

also the pipes that are directly connected to the generators are JUST long enough to have flow indicators

[fierce ruin]

I respect that it works but the buildings being not in center alignment is something I could never bring myself to do.

[frosty pawn]

and the junctions sit on top of the splitters

[empty glade]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_lZATEzy1UA

[kind wigeon]

y e s

[frosty pawn]

if i wanted the generators symmetrical, they would need to be farther apart because of bendy belts and pipes wouldnt work as well as they do here

[wind spade]

iirc I've calculated that if you rotate the gens 90 degrees, it's almost perfect square due to their sizes

[kind wigeon]

wait how do you rotate the map in scim

[minor cipher]

I dont think you can

[fierce ruin]

Yes. I space them further apart where you have extra space made by the offset.
So both of us end up using "extra space" tbh.

[kind wigeon]

ah

[minor cipher]

I dont think you can even rotate the in game one

it would just make it confusing to compare the two for locations

[kind wigeon]

true

[minor cipher]

but yeah the map being tilted 45° messes me up sometimes lol

or at least it feels like that

maybe cause my foundations are rotated 45°...

[frosty pawn]

yeah, but i can extend the power plant by making the two rows of generators longer. i can't move the water extractors because i'm gonna have more water extractors behind them

[kind wigeon]

lol ikr

[minor cipher]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[frosty pawn]

it's the best use of space IMO, plus i like how the angled pipes look

[fierce ruin]

Oh the extractors are outside of the generator building so idc about their lineup.

[frosty pawn]

i'll get a screenshot... need to start up the game :p

[fierce ruin]

Just INSIDE the building or on the platform needs to be lined up for my OCD. So that's just the generators themselves.

[kind wigeon]

here's my setup, other side's pretty much just mirrored

pls don't bully my cabling

if I ever decide to extend I'd probably just go vertical

jesus fuck I just noticed this slightly crooked pipe

that's gonna haunt me for a while lol

oh my GOD the bottom extractor's misaligned too

[minor cipher]

heres my setup

yes ik, overclocking is bad, but I didnt know that at the time lol

4 mk.1 pipes for the water

are stacked

[kind wigeon]

I hate scim

it shows me my mistakes

[celest urchin]

Okay so 1 manufacturer can produce 1 High speed connector at a rate of 3.75/min at 100% clock speed.

If the recipe I decide to use demands 210 quickfire/min, 37.5 cable/min, and 3.75 Circuit boards/min

That means I need
At least 2 constructors making Cable at a max rate of 60/min
At least 6 constructors making Quickwire at a max rate of 240/min
One Assembler making circuit boards at a max rate of 7.5/min

The Cable requires 60 wire/min
So we need 4 constructors making wire for the 2 cable constructors
One smelter for the 2 constructors making wire, and obviously 1 miner for the copper.
Mk2 miners can produce goods on a pure node of copper at a rate of 240/min.
If you feed that into 8 smelters you get 240 copper ingots/min.
Which means you can make 240 cable/min from one pure copper node using
8 smelters, and 2 layers of constructors. The first being 16 wide and the second being 8 layers wide.

Do you get what I am saying now??

[frosty pawn]

you can use multiple floors instead of making super large 16x8 floating platforms

[celest urchin]

No

[empty glade]

Which cable recipe do you use? Insulated uses less copper. Which quickwire recipe? Fused uses less caterium. Which circuit board recipe?

[frosty pawn]

ok, sorry did not realise you cant do that

my bad

[empty glade]

Better use copper alloy; it gives bonus ingots for mixing in iron.

[celest urchin]

It depends entirely on the recipe you want to you use. Design around and according to that. And you can legitimately plan your factory.

[frosty pawn]

you just wrote an essay detailing each step of a plan

you gonna say now the plan is perfect after you admit the whole thing is subject to change?

[celest urchin]

bROTHERMANGUYPALDUDEBRO.

Do you not get that all the numbers in that essay can be swapped out with just a little bit of thinking?

[empty glade]

Or calculator

[celest urchin]

^^^^

[frosty pawn]

no, i dont, because it's not just the numbers. entire sections of it can be rendered obsolete by chaging a recipe.

[celest urchin]

https://discordapp.com/channels/370472939054956546/558721941410807812/885947029279367199

[frosty pawn]

you can use iron wire which basically deletes copper

[celest urchin]

I say again
https://discordapp.com/channels/370472939054956546/558721941410807812/885947687986425866

[frosty pawn]

i've played this game long enough to understand the concept of planning ahead with the knowledge that all plans will change when the time comes and you cant design a factory that you will build in later tiers while you are still in earlier tiers

you WILL dismantle, whether you want to or not

also my flow indicators disappeared between saving and loading the game

[celest urchin]

Duh. I don't have all the recipes yet.

But someone with 500 hrs in a save probably does.

THAT person can do this. And if they do. They can build Once. Not 300 times.

[frosty pawn]

I have over 1000 hours in this game and I've learned that it's far less stressful to focus on the current task, not the endgame, until you reach the endgame

[celest urchin]

You wanted to harvest ALL the ores in the world. I'm saying you should figure out what is possible with all those ores.

I'm sure the Most efficient recipes are already out there somewhere.

Just build around that.

[fierce ruin]

Oh I had a whole bunch of OC'ing lined up for my coal gens until I realized compacted coal is worse than regular....

[frosty pawn]

I don't want to harvest all the ores. You must be confusing me with someone else

[celest urchin]

Maybe I dunno. Someone here wanted to do that. And when I said they should figure out what to do with all that stuff you said that it would be dumb to do that.

To which I said No, it would actually be much better.

[frosty pawn]

i agree. it is dumb to do that.

literally the best return on your efforts for harvesting all the ores and processing them is to sink them all

but you also need to power the whole thing and the most efficient power is nuclear which means you cant sink all the copper and steel etc, you need to balance it all out. in the end the whole exercise is a theoretical one, because implementing it doesnt even matter in the end

[celest urchin]

I don't know what the Sink's various return rates are. But considering that it's supposed to reward you more as the level of complexity rises in the items you sink into it, I would hazard a guess that sinking ores into it is not the most efficient use of materials.

[frosty pawn]

even if you were to implement this, you would need to play the game normally, without building any part of this, in order to unlock all the tiers and aquire all the alternate recipes first - this is where your argument falls flat on its face. you have to build your factory with absolute disregard to the endgame plan and then dismantle it when you reach that stage

[celest urchin]

Yeah. But just once.

Not fifty or a hundred times.

[fierce ruin]

what is the endgame plan though

just finish spelevator?

[celest urchin]

I dunno yet. Gotta figure that out.

[frosty pawn]

if i build a small factory to get enough reinforced iron plates and rotors to make enough smart plating to unlock tier 3 and then it becomes useless, i'm not going to immediately dismantle it. i'm gonna move on to a different area of the map and leave that junk there because i can dismantle it later when i have all the alt recipes i want

[celest urchin]

Exactly....

[frosty pawn]

in the mean time i can use trucks or trains or whatever to bring those parts to the next factory

[celest urchin]

Sure.

[frosty pawn]

that factory was never built with any single thought of what's coming next. there was no grand master plan

it served its purpose and that purpose was to fulfil the current objective

[celest urchin]

Right. So when you GET a grand master plan is when you implement the Grand Master plan.

[frosty pawn]

you get that plan after everything else is done

not before

[celest urchin]

Yes. this is true.

[wind spade]

you only need alts for given tier, not all alts at the begining

[frosty pawn]

then we agree. my work here is done. goodbye

[celest urchin]

No, But if you know the alts, you can plan for them.

I'm not saying you should do this instead of just rebuilding. But you can.

[wind spade]

it's hard to plan for alts that completely change your production line 🤷‍♂️

[frosty pawn]

the plan is "im gonna dismantle this in the end anyway so whatever, i'll just do whatever"

[celest urchin]

Yes. This is true. That's why I'm saying the best course would be to build once the when you get the alts you want, dismantle and rebuild.

[wind spade]

and my point is - why not get the alts you want before building anything major

most of the alts you can actually get before you start building certain production

[celest urchin]

I'm running around trying to that now on tier 5 & 6 actually.

[minor cipher]

plus, why would you even need to dismantle it? if you have like 6 storage containers for each resource, you'll never really need to wait for more to be produced

[celest urchin]

It's not really about the amount produced. It's about the rate at which you produce stuff.

[frosty pawn]

you can always build another factory instead of waste time dismantling before you can begin building. there is only 1 reason to ever dismantle a factory: because you need that resource and there isnt an alternative. this isnt gonna happen until youve unlocked all the tiers and really shouldnt happen until a while after that

[wind spade]

and even after that you can just reroute the miner somewhere else and keep the factory there until you get younger brother to play with you to task him with factory removal

[minor cipher]

me when I am the youngest brother

[wind spade]

well good luck with your factory removing then 🙂

[celest urchin]

LMAO!

[frosty pawn]

i dont have a younger brother 😢

[minor cipher]

just dont teach him what C does in dismantle mode (mass dismantle)

he may end up deleting all your factories

[celest urchin]

I had to restart Jak and Daxter precurser legacy about 100 times because my little brother discovered/didn't understand the concept of "Overwrite Save File".

[wind spade]

my point is - removing a factory should be done only if you

• need the space (which shouldn't happen as we have pretty much infinite space)
• need the resources from which you've built the factory (which shouldn't happen because those materials should be automated)
• need back the fps
• want to remove it because it looks terrible

[frosty pawn]

"- want to remove it because it looks terrible" paint it pink, problem solved.

[celest urchin]

Pink re-shader mod?

[minor cipher]

I had to factory reset the family pc about 8 times when I was younger cause I didn't understand that people make programs that are designed to look legit and instead completely screw over your pc

[celest urchin]

MCAFFE ANTIVIRUS ALERT!

YOU ARE NOT PROTECTED!

[empty glade]

Considering deposits are infinite, it would be the best return on your time considering a perfect factory would take a long time to build, until you need mats for something else.

[celest urchin]

Everything except power is infinite. As far as I can tell.

And the only reason deposits are "infinite" is because the miners use so little power.

[wind spade]

depends on how you define infinite.
raw resources are infinite
raw resources per minute are not

for same reason:
energy is infinite
power is not

[fierce ruin]

<insert Palpatine unlimited power gif that I am not allowed to post>

[celest urchin]

I define energy as power over time.
So I guess Energy is not infinite either.

[wind spade]

uhh, that's wrong definition

power is energy over time

[celest urchin]

The mathematical expression for electrical energy in a conducting circuit is E (e) = P×t

[wind spade]

but "power over time" means P/t

also energy is stored in items that can hold energy (fuels, coal, etc.), which are infinite.
power isn't infinite (or rather sustainable power)

[celest urchin]

Technically it's an integral.

Not a divisor.

[wind spade]

practically what I said above is still valid 🤷‍♂️

[celest urchin]

Energy is the Integral of whatever you use to Model Instantaneous power in-between points t1 and t2.

But that sounds pretentious. So I just said "over time".

[wind spade]

energy is also the number literally defined per item in this game 🤷‍♂️

[frosty pawn]

my power decreases over time. that's why i need to eat and sleep.

[minor cipher]

thanks for the fun fact core of neutron star

[fierce ruin]

tsar much

[celest urchin]

So what are the good Alt recipes?

[wind spade]

there's no "good" and "bad" recipes. All are situational and depend on what you want to do and which goals you have, which resources you want to use, etc.

[celest urchin]

Because I'm looking at this Alt for an Automated Miner that takes 1 engine, 4 steel pipes, 4 iron rods and 2 iron plates and it produces 1/min.

And I'm just like wtf.

Regular recipe still takes the same number of iron rods, and plates, AND produces 50% more Miners.

Am I missing something? Or are some alt recipes just flat worse than the standard with zero upside?

[wind spade]

the upside is that you can have it automated

yeah, it's not for everyone, but if you want to automate portable miners, then you need to use this recipe 😉

[celest urchin]

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

[wind spade]

for most people it's not enough to outweight the extra cost, but it's something 🤷‍♂️

[celest urchin]

I gotchu. So it's just an option if you want to automate that specific item's manufacture and have a bunch in a storage crate somewhere.

I see.

[fierce ruin]

There are definitely some bad ones tho...

[celest urchin]

Any come to mind to avoid?

I'm farming hard drives atm. And I was just wondering what to avoid.

[wind spade]

every recipe has it's pros and cons. There's no recipe that's worse in everything and every recipe can be situationaly used 🤷‍♂️

[wind spade]

well you can get enough drives to get all recipes and still have a few drives left, so worst case just pick all of them 😉

[fierce ruin]

Yeah. But for instance pick turbofuel before turbo heavy fuel etc

[keen patio]

Note, must have compacted coal to even get turbofuel as a choice; whereas turbo heavy fuel can appear at any time after oil stuffs I think.

[celest urchin]

This is what I wanted thank you.

[wind spade]

well that's requirements, not "which recipe is better"

[burnt geyser]

its prob best to look at the recipes and decide if it helps you with the resources you got (like if you got a bunch of quartz early on and cant use it a recipe using it is a good idea)

[wind spade]

for requirements of certain alts (and other schematics), you can check my site: https://u4.satisfactorytools.com/codex/schematics

[celest urchin]

Yeah. I'll do the requirements. That I'm fine with.

Also, @wind spade THANK YOU that looks like a great resource.

[wind spade]

if you haven't heard of it yet, it also has codex for buildings and items, and a production planner 😉

[keen patio]

pesters greeny, psssst, how's the update coming along? 😄 😄 😄

[celest urchin]

There's an update?!?!?!

[wind spade]

I assume Jeslis means update of my tools

[upbeat tide]

Greeny’s tool is one of the best available imo

[wind spade]

I'm working on a big update that will include a lot of new functionality

[celest urchin]

WHERE THE FUCK WAS CAST IRON SCREWS WHEN I NEEDED THEM ON TIER 4 HUH?!?!

[wind spade]

(and it's coming along nicely, but is still super far from finished)

[celest urchin]

WHERE I SAY!!!

[keen patio]

Correct!

[upbeat tide]

@celest urchin caps lock check 🙂

[keen patio]

It was always there, you just didnt find enough hard drives 😛

[wind spade]

my estimate is like a month currently, I want to finish it before U5 hits EX, but can't guarantee that

[keen patio]

Sweet!!

[wind spade]

also, cast screws may look good, but imo it's better to get the alts that get rid of screws entirely 🙂 [but it's your choice ofc]

[celest urchin]

I meant to caps lock that. Screws were the bain of my existence back in tier 3 & 4.

[upbeat tide]

Aah ok 🙂

[celest urchin]

I didn't even look that far in your helper. I just saw cast iron screws and flipped my table over.

[upbeat tide]

Sits here as the madman who used bolted frames and plates recipes in the HMF factory

60/min too

[celest urchin]

I did this.

[upbeat tide]

I just have always used stitched plates and thought ...fml gotta change things up

[celest urchin]

I think I ended up needing close to Mk 3 Belt's cap at the time.

[upbeat tide]

I didnt do it til mk5’s tho

[celest urchin]

NO IT WAS MORE!

[wind spade]

yeah, it all depends on how you want to play. Some people prefer smaller footprints, some prefer resource efficiency, some prefer low power usage, etc.

[upbeat tide]

Yes there is no such thing as small footprint with my current build

[keen patio]

I want a weighting system that heavily favors resource efficiency with some favor of smaller footprints. Fuck power usage, BURN THOSE MWs.

[wind spade]

yeah, not with bolted 😛

[celest urchin]

I REMEMBER !! Because it wasn't until Mk 4 that my first factor could actually even run it needed so many screws!

[celest urchin]

Yeah I'm happy to build more power. Resource efficient ALL the way.

[wind spade]

this sounds good on paper, but if you optimise for resource efficiency, you can't then optimise for power, since that would break the resource optimisation. You can only optimise towards one goal

[upbeat tide]

Sadly resource optimization sometimes dips into rare resources

[keen patio]

err, I said fuck power... but I did say a 'slight look towards smaller footprint' ... which I assumed to mean less building count ?

[upbeat tide]

Anyway this is half my nuclear setup. Gonna go nuts by the time im done

[wind spade]

that's where you can disable recipes/resources 🙂 (and in the future update, also change resource weights)

[upbeat tide]

Indeed

[celest urchin]

I think I remember watching a Kibitz youtube video once about using water to make fuel.

If that's a thing power is easy.

[wind spade]

yeah, but usually the "most optimal route in resource efficiency" is only one, so there's no point in "optimising towards building count", since you're already locked to only one route.

[upbeat tide]

Partially yes but you need one of the two diluted fuel recipes

[keen patio]

Well.. true 'enough'.. lemme elaborate here...

@wind spade
I want to make Part X, and I want to make at least 500 of it/minute, and I only want to use at most 200 oil.
So.. lets say I had the perfectly resource efficient way that makes 1000 doohickeys and uses 100 oil, but needs 100 buildings.
but there's another way that makes 900 doohickeys for 99 oil, and only need 50 buildings.

Right now I don't have a way, short of disabling each recipe (and sometimes multiple recipes are used in a 'path' to make a part, so disabling 1 of them might not even change it to show me this..)

• to see my 2nd option there

[celest urchin]

Why only 200 Oil? Or was that just part of the hypothetical?

[keen patio]

Hypothetical.

[wind spade]

at that point it's optimising towards building count only though, there's no optimisation for raw resources

[keen patio]

Well, I guess I should have added that there is a third option that makes 550 doohickeys for 199 oil

which meets my criteria, but is the worst of 3 options

[wind spade]

it's "I want to make [amount] of [item], resource limits are [limits] and I want to optimise towards [building count]"

[keen patio]

I'm not disagreeing with you Greeny; you ARE right that its no longer optimizing entirely for raw resources...

[celest urchin]

You talking like Ores and whutnot?

[keen patio]

this is more a case of, I want to see my 'other options' for being slightly less resource efficient.. does that make sense?

[bleak coral]

you could get what you're going for with a building count or power limit, and then optimize for resource efficiency

[upbeat tide]

That said there are some alts I dont get their uses, like the fissle material alt that uses uranium ore

[wind spade]

we're talking about my tool and ideas to improve it 😉

[bleak coral]

so like you want X ppm of a part but under Y building/space limit, optimized for resource efficiency

[wind spade]

uhh, let me make a thread for this, so that it doesn't get mixed with other stuff here

[bleak coral]

or Y power limit (probably not both)

[wind spade]

oh crap, no threads here

[keen patio]

Because I DO want to be resource efficient.. but up to a limit; I forget the exact parts but there's been a few where it wants to grab oil and use it for some strange reason.. and disabling oil fixes the problem and only costs me like 0.05% parts (under maximize, which is why its not resource efficient any more)

[celest urchin]

Pinned link to group DM?

[wind spade]

that would be the same result as if you directly optimised for resources tho

[keen patio]

So I find myself, when using your tool, hitting maximize, noting the parts/minute, then swapping OFF maximize and putting that part/min # back in to get a different result (Sometimes)

[wind spade]

yeah, that's due to maximise and i/m using different algorithms currently. That'll be fixed in the new update, when both will optimise for raw resources

[keen patio]

Yay! I'll wait for any more .. critique? until after the update then for sure ❤️

And I DO appreciate your tool immensely. I likely would have stopped playing this game long ago without it.

The SCIM version is unreadable for larger setups 😦

[wind spade]

I'm fine with any critique/ideas/anything. It's just for me your idea doesn't make sense. The only thing that makes sense for me is "I want to see other options", which is however SUPER hard to do. Since the tool has to "think" about what other options it can show

[keen patio]

True, and it can also be solved by adding controlable resource weights..

[wind spade]

which is will be a thing in new update as well 🙂

[keen patio]

eg; if I really dont want to have to use oil, I can increase its weight 20% to limit how likely it is to show me an oil based recipe unless its AMAZING

[celest urchin]

I'm somewhat new to the game. But I have some experience coding.

Wouldn't optimizing for size just be a series of calculations starting at.

Input desired Item.
Input Desired Recipe.

Decide method of production.

Set as Template.

Determine volume necessary for template's Buildings.

Done.

[wind spade]

yeah, definitely can see usecase for that. Weights were planned to be modifiable from the beginning, but for some reason I didn't add that

[keen patio]

@wind spade Question regarding your weight setup; How.. well will this work if I want to do something like.. reduce each resource weight based on the % I am using of it? .. eg; if Im using 40% of the quartz, can I do something like 'reduce the available quartz listed' and the weight will auto adjust?

[fringe pawn]

Ooh, I'm liking the preview to truck stops, in particular the pair of I and O ports perhaps indicate they've solved some of the things we were talking about yesterday?

[wind spade]

it's WAY more complicated than just a series of calculations, currently I'm using linear programming's methods to optimise matrices of recipes with optimisation towards target goal. So optimising for size is pretty simple, what we were talking about is optimisation towards multiple goals, which isn't really possible

[wind spade]

there will be a few QOL stuff, for example this one may be exactly what you're looking for:

• button to set weights based on current raw resource limits

[keen patio]

Yay! ty!

[celest urchin]

Hermmmmm. Well, all this is based on first derivatives.

So I assume the matrix is set up using just a much of constant values that can be changed yes?

[wind spade]

if you want to talk about this in detail, my DMs are open, but short version is: each recipe is a sum of products minus sum of ingredients, then you add limits like how much of a certain resource you can use, etc. and run the optimisation algorithm

[celest urchin]

And then it finds the solution to whatever problem you present it with by finding the intersection 2 lines yeah?

I'll DM you.

[wind spade]

I'm fine discussing it anywhere, just don't want to spam the channel here with semi-unrelated math talk 🤷‍♂️

[celest urchin]

Fair.

But I remember witting a paper in my Linear algebra class a few years ago about using linear algebra to solve related rates problems

I can def see a problem when there is no intersection though..

[wind spade]

yeah, if you're familiar with the subject, I can definitely give you more concrete information, but I'd really take it to DMs 🙂

[celest urchin]

Coo

[tropic hawk]

when your power just for the 2 main steps of uranium power is 4.6 GW...

[versed violet]

sounds about right

[minor cipher]

and then you can only produce 4.5 GW from the uranium/s

[fringe pawn]

I built power storages to power my uranium fuel rod chain. I didn't turn most of it on until the whole thing was ready. Though I did make a big buffer of encased cells.

[dusty ingot]

Ah finally, a 0.1 GW nuclear waste factory

[minor cipher]

a -0.1 GW

[dusty ingot]

Oh no, obviously I wanna spend power on creating waste

[fringe pawn]

Watch the next tier of SE parts need plutonium waste 😛

[upbeat tide]

Good need a use for it

Uranium rods > plutonium rods > antimatter bet ya

[fringe pawn]

And then probably some alt to turn uranium directly into whatever comes after plutonium

[upbeat tide]

Nah keep current complexity imo

[fringe pawn]

Oh, it wouldn't be simple presumably.

I'm imagining a multi step process that requires at least two different particle accelerator recipes.

[upbeat tide]

Yup. We already have the structure for particle fun 🙂

And instead of water the antimatter is cooled by deuterium

Which is refined seawater anyway 🙂

[fringe pawn]

This could make for interesting gameplay. Keep your existing nuclear infrastructure to produce antimatter (or whatever) for the next power tier, or make completely new absurdly power hungry uranium -> antimatter infrastructure, which would be more efficient overall if you want to maximize power per unit of uranium.

[upbeat tide]

They would need to add hydrogen tho as a gas

Anti hydrogen would be interesting or even helium 3 for a different approach

[fringe pawn]

Just turn those dumb water wells into hydrogen wells 😄

[upbeat tide]

Eh the water wells have their uses

I maybe using 3 of em 😄

[fringe pawn]

I suppose they could also make deuterium wells in the ocean.

[upbeat tide]

Even tho thats realistic, bit too easy

Make it so you have to pump out water and refine out the deuterium

[fringe pawn]

So another refinery recipe? 😬

[wind spade]

Blender

[fringe pawn]

I think a water extractor variant for deuterium would be better, the same as an oil extractor essentially being a miner variant

[upbeat tide]

Yea blender or rather anthesis of a blender is appropriate

Honestly tho, helium-3 fusion would be a really cool extreme end game thijg

[fringe pawn]

It would be interesting to see them do any sort of take on fusion, I think they'd come up with something well done.

[thorn bane]

imo it doesnt make sense to introduce something after nuclear which is already complicated enough

[upbeat tide]

Nah it really isnt. Honestly. Granted you are talking to crazy people here

[thorn bane]

im saying it doesnt make sense to spend design work on something only 1% of people see

[upbeat tide]

Uum ok? This game is all about expanding stuff

[fringe pawn]

Ultimately they could make a final SE tier that makes power beyond nuclear compelling. The challenge would be making it interesting. They've been successful so far, I see no reason to doubt them.

But maybe we are closer to the end of the tech tree than we realize. WHo knows. 🤷

[upbeat tide]

We still have quantum computers, etc to be added in properly

[fringe pawn]

Yeah, even just adding quantum computers and super oscillators could make for some very complex new recipes. And we still have SAM. Overall I would bet on the game becoming more complicated, despite the protests of some that things like aluminum are too complicated already.

[upbeat tide]

Aluminum is not complicated

At least I dont feel that way anymore

[kind wigeon]

to be fair the learning curves for most "factory" games are more like learning cliffs

makes you feel dumb at first, then when you figure it out, you feel like a god

[upbeat tide]

And thats how my aluminum plant is on verion 3 🙂

But now its never gonna change unless they mess with it for me

[fringe pawn]

It's the dilemma of appealing to a spectrum of people. I think they're doing fine now. Instant scrap exists, and there's plenty of resources to complete the [currently] final SE load without nuclear at all.

I think the most complicated mandatory item is nuclear pasta, perhaps? Because of conversion cubes.

[thorn bane]

dude i love aluminum because its actually complex not just "use the thing from before and make it more advanced"

aluminum and recycled rubber/plastic are my 2 favorite things to build

[upbeat tide]

Im gonna leave this here. My max map aluminum factory

[kind wigeon]

I love ur cables

just gotta say it

[fringe pawn]

What intrigues me is the idea of plutonium being the final power tier, and then MK3 miners allowing full output eventually, so perhaps you can do both max nuclear and max instant scrap. Though I don't know how those numbers would look with the additional bauxite available.

And maybe we'll get an MK4 miner. 🤷

[thorn bane]

dont you do compacted steel ingot at that point?

[upbeat tide]

No

Solid steel all the way 🙂

Or coke steel

[kind wigeon]

I still gotta get solid steel

hard drives are giving me no luck

[fringe pawn]

I love the ultimate screw factory that uses compacted, solid, and coke steel ingots, then needs to resort to cast screws for the remaining iron.

[kind wigeon]

I could just reload the saves, but that just feels wrong idk

[upbeat tide]

Since somebody mentioned it

3600 rubber
3600 plastic

In there

[fringe pawn]

I feel like there needs to be a special Easter egg unlocked by getting a billion sink points from screws or something.

[kind wigeon]

oh, I've been meaning to ask, does the game decide to render belts using LoS or distance?

[upbeat tide]

Distance

[kind wigeon]

ah so covering things up won't help with fps drops

[upbeat tide]

Same reason trucks and trains go wonky after some distance

Visually

[upbeat tide]

Thats been hotly debated

Im leaning toward no tho

[kind wigeon]

I see

[upbeat tide]

Granted my game is 90% belts and 10% drones. 0% trains

[kind wigeon]

fair enough lol

[upbeat tide]

Trains ticked me off too many times 🙂

[kind wigeon]

I've been using (relatively) small factories spaced far apart to help with fps

[fringe pawn]

I'm looking forward to them previewing trains. I really like their truck preview, and I'm definitely going to use them just for the aesthetic.

[upbeat tide]

Im actually looking forward to the truck overhaul

Might actually use some

[kind wigeon]

yeah

might lead to less crossmap spaghetti until trains are unlocked

[fringe pawn]

In particular, it may be amusing to do plutonium rod powered trucks for endgame

[upbeat tide]

Pfft I dont do spaghetti

[kind wigeon]

that's just dry spaghetti

[thorn bane]

hahahaha i love that term

[fringe pawn]

Great use of background for the picture

[kind wigeon]

"I'm just gonna tidy it up later"
also me 15 hours later:

it's so ugly but I'm waiting for mk3 belts to unlock

I also forgot foundations because I'm "gonna rebuild it later anyway"

[tawny swan]

hell yeah, squished my 300/m alcalid sheet factory down to a 10x13 foundation (originally a 12x14)

[fierce ruin]

this is smoother in u5

[keen patio]

Remind me; is this using packaged water, or did you get the wastewater loop to work properly?

((Sorry for late ping, didnt realize timestamps were so much earlier.

[upbeat tide]

Yea I got the loops to work properly.

I am using mk1 pipes for the external water supply and mk2 for the rest of the loop areas

[frosty owl]

Of you got big belts to hide, I hear hiding them can help. Not a lifechanging thing, but should still give up to ~3/5 FPS in the best case scenarios iirc

[frosty owl]

It's only you who can't

[empty glade]

That was covered in the last U5 update from Jace. After some distance they make it hop to approximate. They've improved it in U5.

[upbeat tide]

Im aware 🙂

But still they will de-render just in a smoother way now

[reef turtle]

So I've been revisiting the visualizer in my Satisfactory calculator, to add a boxes-and-lines display in addition to the Sankey diagram, and I've rigged up a thing that uses wasm in order to do layout using graphviz, and the results are so much better than what dagre can do:

Graphviz really is the king of graph layouts.

Dagre has this weird issue where sometimes it makes paths zig and zag needlessly, so they cross when they don't need to, and I'm pretty sure it's just because its algorithm for minimizing edge-crossings is fairly simplistic.

[rancid dew]

How youre using it? Any library or pack for it to add this sweet icons etc?

[reef turtle]

At a high-level, I'm using d3-graphviz to access the actual thing: https://github.com/magjac/d3-graphviz

But more specifically: First, I calculate the size of each node. When I construct the dot file, I then just have it render each node as an empty rectangle of the appropriate size.

Then I go back through the resulting SVG tree and replace each empty rectangle with the fancy icons, etc.

I also do something similar for the edge labels.

d3 does a lot of the heavy lifting in terms of manipulating the DOM.

[wind spade]

that looks cool. I wanted to do splines for arrows as well (so that they don't cross each other too much and stuff), but I want to keep the ability of moving nodes around and I haven't seen a library that can do that (and do splines)

[reef turtle]

It would be possible to hack that in with this, to some extent.

The trouble is that this graphviz thing isn't necessarily fast enough to use interactively like that.

But you can manually specify the position of nodes, so you could have it do the layout for the initial display, and then manually position nodes as they are moved around.

[wind spade]

I guess it would be fine to just recalculate edges at drag end 🤷‍♂️

[reef turtle]

True, that could be done. Drag a ghost node around and recalculate when it's dropped.

[wind spade]

I guess I'll check d3 stuff at some point, but I don't really want to dig into changing redering library now 😄

[reef turtle]

What are you using currently? React?

[wind spade]

vis-js

for visualisation

and angularjs for the website itself

also elkjs for putting the nodes in decent structure

[reef turtle]

d3 is really just a particular way of doing DOM stuff. If you're already using Angular, adding in d3 may be redundant.

[wind spade]

well I meant the graphviz 🙂

[reef turtle]

Ah, sure.

There are probably other libraries which can do this, too. Really it's just an API that goes "DOT document" to "<svg> tag with stuff in."

It also has some zooming and panning stuff built in, but I've gone and replaced that with my own implementation.

(Since I want to be consistent between the Sankey and box & line displays.)

[keen patio]

Nah, there was 2 other guys; who do you think I got the idea from? Myself? Hah! I'm not that creative.

[versed violet]

Uh, what does programmable splitter do when you assign this to output??

[thorn bane]

you mean "none"? it just doenst output any items even when thers a belt attached

[versed violet]

Yes, but does thic combination means NONE as nothing (essentially ingores remaining filters), or none, except selected filters (in which case none is irrelevant).

[upbeat tide]

Oh I have never really tested that

I use 95% smart splitters because just dont normally need multiple rules per output

[versed violet]

Building the 'catch-all' filter just before sending everything to sink.

Also, mercer/sommersloop are not filterable??

[thorn bane]

seems like none is irrelevant when you have another rule in that output

[versed violet]

Ok, wouldn't make sense otherwise

[thorn bane]

anyone know if theres a way to make a perfect priority merger?

[wind spade]

three train stations

[upbeat tide]

So, I have been gathering the raw materials for my non-fissle material setup. I will need 4032 nitrogen gas. And after checking, the two closest nitrogen wells happen to total to 4050 nitrogen. 🤔

Gonna use the water generated from non fissle back into the nitric acid refineries as its a clean 2:1 ratio

[thorn bane]

huh i thought that was the notorious closed loop?

non-fissile makes 15 water -> 15 nitric acid -> which is its input

[upbeat tide]

Nope nitric acid is 30 water

[thorn bane]

for 30 nitric acid
but you only need 15

[upbeat tide]

Yes thats why the plan is to use every 2 non fissle blenders per 1 nitric refinery

This is the entire setup

The number of nitric acid blenders and non fissle blenders is workable with that ratio

And this is the break down plan. Wanted to see how to best take the main project down into segments

So far this is winning. Sulfuric acid will be a pain tho because its 50/min output but nitric is 30. No issue there

Actually sulfuric works out too. 4.8 refineries makes 240 acid. I am using two belts of 600 sulfur for this so thats 12 total refineries divided into three groups 4.8 / 4.8 / 2.4 which will make me 240/240/120 sulfuric acid

And my silica belts have 750 on them so will just stretch those to capacity. Have 3 of them available

[frosty owl]

That's with the sulfuric acid

[frosty owl]

You can fiddle with the clock to have a 1:1 or 1:2 feed from sulfuric acid to Non-fissile and loop back the byproduct water to the sulfuric acid

By-Water:sulfuric acid are 1:1

[upbeat tide]

Im planning to do that but with nitric acid.

Basiclly idea is groups of 16 blenders for non fissle. Each two of those connect water to one nictric acid. And that one nictric acid connects to two non fissle

[fringe pawn]

And a fluid buffer or two?

[upbeat tide]

Nope not planned anyway

Kinda the idea

[fringe pawn]

I get a little paranoid about waste disposal, so it's the only placed I bothered with buffers to hedge against the fluid loss bug

[upbeat tide]

The flow is soo low in this case it will be mk1 piping

Per set

For the nitrogen I also plan to have one pipe per header, so 300 per pipe

[frosty owl]

About how many buildings was a 12ish plut. rods/min processing again?

[upbeat tide]

120 @fierce ruin%

[wind spade]

poor guy getting pinged

[upbeat tide]

0.1/min

Ooh oops didnt even notice that was a username

[frosty owl]

Any chance I could persuade you to include more production steps into the layout? 😏
Depends on what you got already at hand, but eg: include the accelerators and manifacturers in the bulding as they (can) fit nicely in front and got good ratios
Could even include steel and concrete production if you okay with space well 😆

[upbeat tide]

@frosty owl sure but will be later. Away from PC most of the day

Im doing instant plut cells soo

[frosty owl]

Sounds good, as I'm just passing by rn anyway 😅

[upbeat tide]

Instant plut cells is actually nice

[frosty owl]

I wouldn't have thought
Got that much allu to spare now that you maxed it? ^^

[upbeat tide]

You only need 600 alu ingots for max

[frosty owl]

Haven't looked much into it. I thought it makes the processing simpler (less buildings, nicer ratios) but used a bit more allu, is this right?

[upbeat tide]

Smth like that

Anyway be back later

[muted crypt]

question: is the normal recipe for Encased Uranium Cells used, or is the alt used? I'd assume the alt because it uses less uranium and sulfur overall, but it's also using quartz (and possibly limestone) and caterium so idk

like if I wanted to be the most efficient with things

I'm just drawing up diagrams for myself while there's not much to do at work

[fierce ruin]

the alt is usually prefered. Sulfur and uranium are more limiting, if you want to max power from nuclear it's a clear win (as uranium is what limit power from nuclear)

if you want a more complex calculation where you max production from some other part and just want to produce enough power and not max it the normal recipe might have some use (even then, i'm not sure... but anyway, i think maxing power is what people usually look for when building nuclear)

[upbeat tide]

The encased uranium cell alt is far superior. You fet more out of your limited uranium and sulfur supply

The silica becomes a nothing issue if your using cheap silica. Same with quickwire. Use pure cat inogts + pure copper ingots + fused quickwire = a serious ton of quickwire

[upbeat tide]

Yes that issue exists but none of my recycled loops have failed because of it, or my aluminum setups

🤷‍♂️ dunno if there is a reason or not

[thorn bane]

the issue is not recycled loops its closed loops because they cant recover

[upbeat tide]

My alu solution is closed loop and has no problems at all

At least think its considered closed loop

Best image I have of the alu solution system

Straight from sloppy solution to the electrode refineries

[fringe pawn]

Prefill with a big fluid buffer and you buy plenty of reloads, IMO. Uranium waste is a pretty small operation, even at max, so it wouldn't even end up being a particularly large build to do max nuclear with a couple thousand saves (3~ per day for 2 years) worth of extra water as a buffer. You also need slight overproduction of nitrogen gas and sulfur to compensate for when the lost fluids aren't just water, and/or to buffer these separately.

[thorn bane]

or you just use the water with wet concrete for encased plutonium rods

[fringe pawn]

That's an option, but not necessarily an easier one if you're not using the default plutonium recipes.

[upbeat tide]

I may actually use byproduct water. I need to use pure copper anyway down there soo why not?

[fringe pawn]

Nice

[upbeat tide]

Was thinking of this

But either way will need to feed some pure ingot areays. This will make me just under 1100 water as byproduct too

[fringe pawn]

I did something similar (and smaller scale) but with sulfuric acid.

[upbeat tide]

Well was considering this for nitric since its a easier ratio, but yea true closed loops do have issues

[fringe pawn]

I'd probably pick the option where I can think of the best physical layout. Otherwise they all have more or less equal strengths and weaknesses.

[reef turtle]

Aluminum defies me. Without some sort of priority fluid merger, I'm not sure how to design a system that behaves appropriately in response to feedback.

That is, in response to outputs filling up.

A Google search found this post, but I fear that the means by which it works limits its applicability: https://www.reddit.com/r/SatisfactoryGame/comments/kd1u8x/priority_input_fluid_buffer/

[wind spade]

check McGalleon's fluid guide (especially his "VIP" junction), it's in pinned post

[reef turtle]

The VIP junction seems simple enough, but I do not understand how it works.

[fringe pawn]

Use the wastewater for pure ingots or wet concrete instead? 🤷

[reef turtle]

This approach is insufficiently tolerant of feedback.

If my ingot or concrete consumption backs up, then I'm back to not consuming the wastewater.

[fringe pawn]

Smart splitter to a sink?

[reef turtle]

The VIP junction seems like exactly the thing that I need. I just want to know how it works.

A smart splitter would indeed prevent deadlocks, but it is rather wasteful.

[wind spade]

is it more wasteful than your buildings not running? 😛

[reef turtle]

It's more wasteful than this VIP junction, apparently.

[wind spade]

well it's kinda separate topic - no matter if you do or don't do VIP junction here, for all other productions - why not overflow to sink when storage is full? 😛

[fringe pawn]

Waste is also a peculiar concern in a game where all resources are infinite.

I guess your first computers that you build by hand may be a little precious, and other such scenarios. But not ingots and concrete.

[wind spade]

anything that you have a full storage of can be considered not precious at that time

and if you don't sink, you won't get too much extra anyway, mostly it will just fill belts and machine outputs

which may be needed for some reason, but at that point you should increase your storage capacity instead 🙂

[fringe pawn]

look at packaged turbofuel and all the other random things in his warehouse and scratches his chin.

[thorn bane]

for me the reason is to save power by having the machines shut down

[wind spade]

which is a valid argument, but at that point you may look at expanding your power instead

[reef turtle]

Apparently it's as simple as "in a vertical pipe junction, lower inputs take priority over higher."

[wind spade]

because either you can't run all your buildings at once and that's why you're saving power (which may be bad if for some reason your entire base decides to run at the same time - blowing your fuse)

or you can run your entire base out of the available power, at which point there's pretty much no reason to not run it to produce more items/sink points

[thorn bane]

well power storages are a thing so 1 is a viable option

[wind spade]

I'd still be very sceptical about a base that can blow fuse if it runs for long enough 🤔

[reef turtle]

Presumably, at some point you run up against your computer's ability to run the factory.

[wind spade]

sure, your fps may be a valid reason 🤷‍♂️ but if the argument is "saving power", then I don't really like that argument

[fringe pawn]

That's how I got to nuclear power. Once I fired up all the infrastructure at once, I would have been in a crunch if something hadn't worked. Of course I knew how to unplug it all and charge the batteries again if needed.

[wind spade]

well it's your save, I just expressed my concerns and recommendations 🤷‍♂️

[fringe pawn]

Nothing like that riveting feeling of seeing the clock on your power storage, knowing that's how long you have to get your nuclear up and running. 😛

[thorn bane]

if i know i use ~1 computer per minute spread out over my gameplay (1275 in 80h but you dont use them early so 1275 in 20hours) but im making 3.75/min becuase of the recipe, that production requires ~550 MW but it will only run 26% of the time so i plan for 146MW and save 400MW

Now lets say you go to your storage and take 200 computers
that would take 53 minutes to be replenished during which youre using the full 550 MW so you will drain 440MW from your power storage.
440 MW in 53min is ~4 power storages

so by building 4 power storages i have saved building 2.7 extra fuel generators

[wind spade]

and now let's say you take another 50 computers before it fills back up and blow your fuse because power storages are not enough 😛

[thorn bane]

but if you come back to get another 50 computers youre not using other resources, so the power save from those would handle that

[wind spade]

well you don't know that

what if you were e.g. filling a truck to build a bigger project somewhere else and just for safety wanted to put more of each item so you don't have to come back in case you need more

[thorn bane]

if thats your playstyle then you just build 10 more power storages and youre good

[wind spade]

or enough power to handle it and as a bonus I'll have nice amount of tickets so that I can purchase cosmetic items and more cool stuff in a shop 🤷‍♂️

with how much new cosmetic stuff will come to awesome shop in U5, you may as well start printing those tickets now 😛

[thorn bane]

i mean if you need tickets sure but im talking about sinking ore/etc. that doesnt give a lot and if you already have something thats efficient for getting tickets

i feel like with how good power storages are now there is really no need to go for meeting the max cons.

[empty glade]

You also don't know if you'll pick up another 50 computers

[wind spade]

I never talked about sinking ore. I was talking about putting an overflow splitter before storage, so you're sinking only final products that have full storage. That does mean that ores are produced at full capacity, but only materials that are actually produced are sunk 🙂

[wind spade]

I'd rather have the option to pick them up than to check if I can afford to pick more items or if I have to wait for my power storages to charge

[thorn bane]

well id rather have to build 50% less power and get through the game faster than having some coupons but i guess thats personal preference

[wind spade]

for me factory games aren't about speeding through the game, but about having satisfaction from nicely built and working factories 🤷‍♂️ I'm not a speedrunner and generally speeding through the game is not what I do, I always like to explore what the game can offer besides the main path

but yeah, I said that previously as well, it's your save, I'm just expressing my opinion 😉

[thorn bane]

i just feel like you havent tried the power storages yet
they are pretty good xD

[wind spade]

well as you may know, I haven't actually played the game much, but I've played a lot of similar games and I kinda know what kind of playstyle I'll be going for when I'll finally try the game properly (most likely after U5 hits stable)

point is that power storages are essentially buffers and buffers usually just delay problems instead of solving them

[reef turtle]

I'm playing Satisfactory for the first time in quite a while, which means this is my first time running through what is currently the top of the tech tree.

And dang, the "classic battery" recipe seems much more efficient than the base recipe.

[wind spade]

it is

[thorn bane]

https://satisfactory.fandom.com/wiki/Battery has a breakdown of all the resources used

[wind spade]

10 batteries with "best" recipes + classic battery

10 batteries with "best" recipes but normal battery

[reef turtle]

That's less satisfying than writing my own ratio calculator, heh.

[thorn bane]

its alot more buildings though right?

[wind spade]

70 MW for normal battery
97.5 MW for classic battery

[wind spade]

yeah, nothing beats writing your own tool and using that for getting more knowledge about the game 🙂
(why do you think I'm using my own tool to share numbers to you 😛 )

[wind spade]

that looks super cool, though I was a bit confused by the colors at first. I first thought they are based on type of recipe, then type of building, when finally realising that they don't really mean anything and are used just to distinguish between stuff

so for example it was pretty hard to find all raw resources/miners

(just some feedback 😛 )

[reef turtle]

Yes, the colors are assigned arbitrarily, with a bit of a graph-coloring algorithm applied so that neighboring things don't use the same color.

As for the miners, one of the many items on the to-do list is to play around with how the graph is justified.

Which could e.g. ensure that all of the raw resource nodes are placed on the top rank.

[wind spade]

I'd enjoy a distinct color assigned to miners/raw materials, that isn't used anywhere else

[reef turtle]

It'd be easier to use a different shape.

Round instead of square.

[wind spade]

or that (though I'd have to see it first)

[reef turtle]

There is also an interactive component where mousing over a node will highlight it and all of its incident edges.

[wind spade]

not sure how much I like that the highlighted edge labels look very similar to nodes

even though it's just on mouseover

may be a bit confusing

maybe like 50% background transparency or something could solve that

oh lol

ask mods to allow links to your tool I guess 😛

[reef turtle]

It's very much like how my Factorio calculator's visualizer works.

When the node labels are highlighted, those boxes do get rounded edges.

And when used interactively, they do stand out more.

[wind spade]

yeah, I've used it a bit for Factorio playthrough, but eventually sticked with Helmod simply due to it's ingame integration 🤷‍♂️ but I remember having slight issues with the highlighting there as well, before I got used to it

[frosty owl]

I think you could make the graph nicer by having the machines' rectangles change size according to the number of machines (eg: they vary between min and max size based on the number of machines in that instance of the plan)
Could be a toggleable thing ^^

Just throwing ideas~

[reef turtle]

There is a separate Sankey diagram which does this.

It looks like this at the moment:

[frosty owl]

So you'd have to send the factory plan to this Sankey thing?

Oh, right

[reef turtle]

The display can be toggled between these two separate types of graph.

[keen patio]

What are you using to create that graph type?

((Sorry for the late night ping)

[reef turtle]

d3-graphviz is doing the heavy lifting, then I do a bunch of processing of the DOM after the fact.

[keen patio]

I may need an ELI5 there.. is that a website?

[reef turtle]

I am writing the tool that makes these diagrams.

[keen patio]

ah! Not ready for end-user stage (me), got it! Looks pretty 🙂

[reef turtle]

It is unfinished, and is not yet available, yeah.

[keen patio]

a quick (user) tip or feedback; when you set it up and are dealing with wastewater.. it might be worth having the tool look for uses for that water OTHER than looping it back into the system (the game doesn't play nicely with that)

Example; Nuclear recycling of uranium waste; the wastewater from making ... .. one of the items whose name I cant remember... can be used with nearby limestone for concrete, which is needed for processing plutonium pellets

[reef turtle]

I have dealt with it using the so-called VIP junction, which has worked great so far.

[keen patio]

it doesn't work for those of us in modded play unfortunately. I can only hope we get an actual controllable pipe junction to control flow priorities.

[reef turtle]

Looping it back works great if you can guarantee that the waste water is consumed before it acquires additional fresh water.

[keen patio]

((Tested with Mcgalleon, we couldn't get VIP to work with my modded game, most likely MK++ Machine issue.))

Thats the problem, thats very hard to do; currently I have to package all wastewater from a mapwide bauxite-->ALuScrap facility to be moved and unpackaged in order to avoid wastewater issues (even tho the fresh water ONLY ever comes in to a specific set of refineries, and is never mixed with wastewater at all.. the system backs up because of how the scap flowrate is controlled (stops and starts) which cause wastewater to flood the system.

Sorry to be clear; the waste water would backup even without any freshwater mixing, until I swapped to a packaged system.

ANyways; I just wanted to mention it as a user request. If its not something that the tool is able to do or would be a ton of extra effort for niche cases, I understand.

[reef turtle]

The tool is really just solving a particular math problem, heh. As far as the solver is concerned, water is water, and has producers and consumers, and it just tries to optimize those flows without regard for the actual nitty-gritty of moving it around.

It's just a linear optimization problem, as far as this calculator knows.

[wind spade]

Why not have a dedicated set of machines that process the waste water?

[iron dune]

One my mega factory is properly underway, ill have a facility just do deal with the water, train will pick up all waste water from machine and take it to a place where it can all be used, with maybe overflow packaging to a sink. Waste water is such a pain, id like to be able to just sink straight from pipes

[upbeat tide]

Wet concrete
Pure ingots
Coal generators

Thats your waste water sink 🙂

[iron dune]

Ye, but if anything is left i mean

And everything will be nuclear, no coal of fuel will be used

[upbeat tide]

Thats why ppl like to use wet concrete. Cuz normally dont care if a refinery is under supplied

[iron dune]

I hope anyway

[upbeat tide]

My aluminum setup is semi closed water loop. Will draw up a basic plan soon to show it. Its been behaving well for me so far

Still deciding if I will do a closed loop or not for my non fissle setup

[oblique hollow]

i always switch around what i do.
For acid, i try proper closed loops. (though thats hard too due to the loading bug)
For aluminum with the water, i use priority systems. Or use configurations where one alumina refinery can be run off of all the recycled water

[upbeat tide]

If I do full closed this is what I was thinking

[oblique hollow]

if i remember right:
Normal Solution and Normal Scrap Ratio is 6 to 3
Sloppy to normal Scrap is 3 to 5

i havent yet tried to do these with electrode scrap....

[upbeat tide]

@oblique hollow will full closed even work? Considering the loading bugs

[fierce ruin]

iirc the loading bug doesn't affect fluid buffers?

[oblique hollow]

it doesnt but that doesnt mean it wont affect systems

[fierce ruin]

priority fill buffer then feed machine 🤔

[oblique hollow]

what even is the point of that

[fierce ruin]

I don't know anymore

[upbeat tide]

@oblique hollow @iron dune
This is a quick render of my aluminum water setup

[oblique hollow]

christ, i just did the math.
Electrode Scrap has really ugly ratios
4,5 normal solution refineries to 3 Electrode refineries.
1,75 solution refineries can be run completely off of recycled water there

[upbeat tide]

Yup its ugly

But this has been working. Once I switched my external supply to mk1 piping that really seemed to have helped

This is what I did. Each external supply pipe was split into three, so 200m3 water each or so. Then a valve to try to get it down to 180

So far no issues

[oblique hollow]

sloppy and electrode has soooorta nice numbers

1,5 to 2

[upbeat tide]

Yup

Mine is 3 to 4 per module tho but each module uses 600 bauxite

Well, almost all. Forced to use one impure node on its own

[empty glade]

Have a pipe that drops new water into the top of your recycle circuit with a vertical cross. The fluid dynamics will prioritize the bottom input.

[empty glade]

A proper closed loop is easier with a reservoir and a water input with a valve you can close for a proper closed loop.

[upbeat tide]

Your saying this should be possible and not hsve long term issues?

[empty glade]

No, without something to supplement, this will eventually run low on fluid because of the loading bug.

[upbeat tide]

Ah thats what I thought but got myself confused for a sec

So plan A, use byproduct water for something

[oblique hollow]

ah feck

i messed up top right

[upbeat tide]

@oblique hollow you may want to make it visually easier to see the difference between water and solution pipe numbers. The bottom right threw me off for a sec showing 720 until I realized thats meaning alu solution

There is coloring in the arrow lines but maybe a label will make it unquestionable

[oblique hollow]

then where else should i write total flow numbers

water blue, solution gray

[upbeat tide]

Yea was thinking below the numbers like
“180m3
Water”

But a second line may not look good

Im a label guy 🙂

[warm sphinx]

new textures???

[upbeat tide]

Nah just a bug. Reload game should fix

[empty glade]

May need to clean files with Steam

[oblique hollow]

there, fixed

these are the smallest sensible setups for these ratios

[upbeat tide]

@oblique hollow the ratio number here seems off

[minor cipher]

pretty sure what this means, if my power storages were full, they could handle 7000 mw over the capacity for 1 hour until the power cuts out? and 3500 mw over for 2 hours till power cuts?

[oblique hollow]

and 1750 MW for 4 hours

yep. it scales

[minor cipher]

alright ty

[oblique hollow]

its not. 21 sloppy refineries can be run fully of of 40 electrode refineries.
this ratio is just "number of refineries that can be run off of recycled water", not number of solution refineries per scrap refineries

that ratio is a different thing

[upbeat tide]

Ok see what you mean

[oblique hollow]

for Solution to Scrap refineries, it would be 3 to 4 for sloppy and electrode

[upbeat tide]

Yea I know my setup isnt the best way to do it but its at the point of “its not breaking”

[oblique hollow]

ill try to use these ratios in the future. they are quite neat.

for now i just VIP all the water for aluminum

[upbeat tide]

Only real difference between yours and mine is that mine combines external and byproduct water that I can see

[tranquil magnet]

Iam trying to build this one: https://www.reddit.com/r/SatisfactoryGame/comments/mqpzfe/updated_plastic_refinery_diagram_inspired_by/ But i dont get enough fuel! It says 400 residuals makes 600 fuel but its the other way. Is this outdated or is there a trick by packing/unpacking fuel to get more out of it?

[upbeat tide]

@tranquil magnet

HOR alt
Diluted fuel in blenders
Diluted packaged fuel
Residual rubber
Recycled plastic
Recycled rubber

Only alts and recipes you need for recycled loops

[oblique hollow]

that setup actually says "400 HOR makes 800 Fuel" which is only true if you use diluted fuel

the steps where it say "package fuel" reads "DPF" above.
That stands for packaged diluted fuel. an alt recipe

now youd probably use the blender recipe for diluted fuel instead of the refinery recipe, since it removes the need to unpackage fuel

[tranquil magnet]

So i need to add the alternate receipe and addpackaged water

[minor cipher]

huh thats quite strange

when I added more batteries, the capacity just fluctuated, never seen it do that, could either be my coal or fuel

lets see, i can figure out via difference

thats 150 MW difference

so it seems a fuel generator shut down for a moment there then eh?

oh damn look at it go, I should really check it out

soo

I produce 333.375 turbofuel a minute

they go through mk.2 pipes

[warm sphinx]

guys, what is a great setup for pure iron (the one with refineries i want alot of room to expand also

[minor cipher]

37*2 fuel gens...

74 of em...

oop

they all clocked to 100%, so 4.5 tf a minute each

strange...

so I should have 0.375 turbofuel a minute extra no?

red = production, orange = consumption

[faint ember]

Are you doing pure turbo fuel or is there a waste output?

TF production can be funky if you're doing it as a plastic byproduct. Solid materials can get locked up and that trickles down the line.

[minor cipher]

polymer resin, gets sent directly to the sink, no backup of waste

hmm

[faint ember]

Ah. It might just be a flow thing. If all the refineries are at 100%, the upstream power plants might be filling up before the downstream ones can get their juice.

[minor cipher]

let me check the coal actually

seems like the conveyors have no spaces (mk.3)

[faint ember]

Ahhh

[minor cipher]

hmm

I heard conveyors are slightly slower when you are further away

I was quite a bit away when this started

[oblique hollow]

that really shouldnt be an issue with mk 3

[minor cipher]

let me see if theres something with fuel then

10 refineries, all 100%, making 400m³ a minute

then the tf, 17 at 100%, and 1 at 78%, so

ahh

I see the issue now

there wasnt as much precision with decimals at the time

actually there was no decimals

there we go

there we go! should no longer have that issue

[faint ember]

Wait, reducing TF production fixes it?

[minor cipher]

it should anyways

what I think happened is that due to the tf production being a bit too high, the fuel was unable to properly overflow, so the other refineries kept getting starved every once in a while, which eventually caused a small dip in the tf production, and the last few gens started stopping every once in awhile

at least thats what I think happened

the rest of stuff seems to be in order

although, havent checked the compacted coal production

[frosty owl]

I think you just noticed the fluid "load bug", where the machines take in some extra fluid (fuel) everytime you load the game, slowly draining the pipes by more than they should

[minor cipher]

it occured like an hour after I loaded the game

[frosty owl]

Fluids can take a while to settle

The gens could have been running fine at first but eventually the fuel pipe loss shows up once the fuel "settles"

[faint ember]

Solve that shit with a fluid buffer and a few minutes with no consumption

[frosty pawn]

tbh i would turn the polymer into plastic, then into empty containers, then take any extra turbofuel and package it into a storage container or deliver it to truck stations in U5. then i could sink any extra packaged turbofuel or extra containers.

vertical pipe can separate generator fuel from excess fuel. this method allows me to produce excess fuel to prevent generators from running low and also sink excess fuel.

also fixes the decimal places of the number of generators i would need 🤢

[upbeat tide]

@oblique hollow

Is these issues due to the loading bug? or do I need to do a water redesign?

water levels are continually dropping over time

water design, each is like this

[keen patio]

I did, but remember, they also create more waste water themselves.

[keen patio]

Did not work with modded machines (VIP) - tested with Mcgalleon personally.

[wind spade]

that's why you have enough of them to process their own waste + waste from other buildings 😉

[keen patio]

Oh I tried that greeny, I WAY overbuilt.

the official ratio was supposed to be (modded) 8 freshwater sets, with 18 wastewater sets.

I build 24 waste water sets.

[thorn bane]

alsong as theres any connection (water or alumina solution) the system can shut down

[keen patio]

The problem was that the alu scrap did not flow out consistently from everything at once; so what would happen is that more and more 'wastewater' from the freshwater set would fill buffers I had setup to measure how it was going... until the wastewater pipe network would fill entirely with wastewater, and be unable to exit the wastewater producing 'set of 2' refineries that also used wastewater to start.

if I had hooked up 30+ smart splitters to 30+ awesome sinks, then it wouldn't have been a problem.

But now, with packagers, it works perfectly, if at a 2,000mw extra cost

(because it only has something like 3600 empty canisters in the system, so it can never fully jam.

[wind spade]

I'm not sure why that happened, but it seems like it was due to some error somewhere 🤔

[keen patio]

I had .. 3? people look at it (it no longer exists now outside hte packaged version)

[thorn bane]

the error is the pipes beeing weird
you can have 100% accurate math with valves and limiting the flow but the refineries can still waterlock

[keen patio]

so I mean.. if it was user error, it was multiple users.

[keen patio]

^ exactly

[thorn bane]

im kinda in love with this design

[keen patio]

if I ever rebuild my uranium waste processing, Im gonna convert that wastewater to concrete instead of the headache of recycling it atm...