math-and-meta

[bronze silo]

"show me the tickets"

[oblique hollow]

you could.... you know..... adjust the rows so they dont exactly need 780

[bleak coral]

also that

[oblique hollow]

its all just a bit of shifting around

instead of 6 rows

get 10 or something

but less manufacturers per row

[chilly elm]

so i should try bin method

[oblique hollow]

bin method?

[chilly elm]

its really symetrical 6 manufactrers and 6 row🥲

[oblique hollow]

well why dont you expand the assembler row or whatever that makes the quickwire

so you have 780 to begin with

[bleak coral]

if you like how it looks, then go with the splitting the last two belts and using an instertion manifold solution

[chilly elm]

do you watch kibitz he did that with uramium in a video

[chilly elm]

ohhh

nice

ohh yeah thanks

[frosty pawn]

i found the save file and opened in SCIM. i used 1 pure caterium node to make so much quickwire for a train station that it has 4 sinks with mk5 belts xD

[oblique hollow]

did you really not think about that? 😆

[chilly elm]

3 assemblrs mean 775 output

omg this is perfekt

[frosty pawn]

64 assemblers lol

[chilly elm]

😂

[oblique hollow]

a bit of over or underclocking and you got perfect 780

[cedar mica]

When doing balancer, does it matter which belts are getting merged? 3x 600 coal lines, split into 4, then merged 3 and 3, back into 4x 450 lines.

[frosty pawn]

why even bother?

[quick pawn]

258.3(rec)/m each? ew ew ew

[oblique hollow]

dunno i dont deal with that witchcraft anymore

[cedar mica]

3 coal miners, 2 trains with 2 wagons

[oblique hollow]

fear the rational numbers!

[frosty pawn]

if i had 3x600 coal lines i would just accept it and move on, not waste my time with more brain-melting

[oblique hollow]

3.141592653
cower in fear!

[frosty pawn]

i do not fear the pi

[quick pawn]

and embrace the irrational numbers...?

[frosty pawn]

i accept the pi

[chilly elm]

wait thats irrational

[oblique hollow]

[frosty pawn]

no youre irrational

[quick pawn]

think you'll find that 3.141592653 is rational

[oblique hollow]

2.5 is rational
Pi is indeed irrational

[chilly elm]

ok i thought he meant π

[oblique hollow]

satis only has rational numbers

[quick pawn]

well 3.141592653 isn't pi

[oblique hollow]

its but a smidget of pi

[frosty pawn]

pi makes circles. pie is a circle. therefore pi is rational.

[quick pawn]

therefore it's rational

[chilly elm]

which has infinte number of sides and angle which makes it irrational

[oblique hollow]

a circle has sides? thats new to me

[frosty pawn]

a circle has 2 sides: the front and the back

[bleak coral]

it does if you make it with pixels

[quick pawn]

or triangles

[bleak coral]

all these squares make a circle

[oblique hollow]

the 2 sides of satis:
beautiful spaghetti
or painful efficiency

[chilly elm]

a polygon of infinite sides will be a circle

[frosty pawn]

no, it will be a polygon with infinite sides

[quick pawn]

could be irregularly shaped

and then it's just as connected curve

[oblique hollow]

the infninite sided polygon is always an apporximation of an ideal circle

[frosty pawn]

a plate of spaghetti is a polygon with infinite sides, the plate is the circle and the spaghetti has infinite sides

[oblique hollow]

the ideal circle is not a polygon

[glacial hemlock]

an infinite polygon has infinite vertices. A circle has 0 vertex

[quick pawn]

I'd say a circle has infinite vertices

[frosty pawn]

circle has 1 vertex which would be the center

[quick pawn]

infinite still makes more sense though, imo

[oblique hollow]

0 / infinity

[quick pawn]

so....0?

[oblique hollow]

De L'Hospital would be proud/mad

[glacial hemlock]

go Hospital.

[oblique hollow]

you fool, De L'Hospital looks upon you and frowns

[frosty pawn]

math and meta channel has become meta math channel. my brain is melting. i go nap now

[bleak coral]

sqrt(infinity) = infinity

[quick pawn]

infinity = x / 0
0 / infinity = 0 / (x / 0) = 0 / x = 0?

[oblique hollow]

0 / 0 and any other undefined fraction has no solution

[oblique hollow]

infinity = 2 / 0
infinity = -20 / 0
2 = -20

[quick pawn]

A well known fact of mathematics

[glacial hemlock]

your statement is correct. 0/infinity is indeed 0

[bleak coral]

I thought you were done with witchcraft?

[oblique hollow]

infinity = infinity / 0
infinity * 0 = infinity
0 = infinity

[glacial hemlock]

McGalleon, lol, x / 0 is undefined, not infinity

[oblique hollow]

thats my point. undefined

[quick pawn]

I mean none of this matters because as soon as you divide by 0 everything turns to shit lmao
Like that 'proof' where 1 = 2 or something because you divide by sin(90) at some point

[oblique hollow]

glad we could agree that these things have no solution

only engineers pretend x / 0 is infinity

so congrats, you are all engineers

[glacial hemlock]

many online video trick shows N = M by division with 0 , or factor out 0 in some way or another

i am more fascinated about sum of infinity = -1/12

[chilly elm]

inderminant forms and solutions

[chilly elm]

yeah the ramanujan series

[oblique hollow]

begone, Mathologer! hissssss

[wind spade]

x / 0 = undefined
0 / x = 0
x / infinity = 0 (for x that isn't infinity)

[manic oak]

You can actually show that a polygon of infinite sides is a circle by looking at the symmetry group of the n-sided polygon. Consider the symmetries of a square: you can rotate the square by any integer multiple of 90 degrees, or you can flip it across the vertical/horizontal axis. Now consider a pentagon: rotations by 72 degrees or flipping across any of the 5 axes that go through its vertices (and connect to the opposite edge). Continuing this pattern to infinity, the infinite sided polygon would be symmetric under rotation by any angle (no matter how small), and across any axis, which describes a circle.

[simple hawk]

isnt that the definition of a circle... just a infinite side shape

[fierce ruin]

a fractal is infinite

so an infinite sided regular polygon

[oblique hollow]

another criteria for circle: boundary is equdistant to a central point

[austere rapids]

great example of an infinite side polygon is the kochflake

circle has one side by definition

[fierce ruin]

^

how is a line with a bend a line in the case of a one sided circle?

[hidden pecan]

A star can also form an infinite sided regular polygon. The only diffirence is that its not a convex shape

[fierce ruin]

true

[quick pawn]

Pretty sure by definition a circle doesn't have any sides, definitely not just 1

[versed violet]

If we define a circle as a set of points equidistant from center, infinitely many of them
then connect those points with lines (infinitely many of them)
we can say that we have "infinite-gon", but the lines will be so short they're practically zero length.

In some circumstances treating circle as ininito-gon is beneficial.

[bleak coral]

Just got back on my computer and saw how this was actually supposed to look . On mobile I was like "what polygons these aren't even closed shapes"

[unborn ermine]

Yeah images like that are poop on the standard grey background.

[manic oak]

It's better to think of the circle as the infinite limit of the n-sided regular polygon. It's not like we can make a polygon that actually has infinite sides. After all, you can't draw it; you would have to draw an infinite number of edges. However, we can consider the infinite-n limit of the n-sided regular polygon, which would be a circle.

[sleek elk]

I’ve got 3 assemblers making reinforced iron plates for 15 per min, but I can’t figure out how to split that evenly into my 5 assemblers each making modular frames that take 3 reinforced plates per minute without using the overflow method. HELP!

[fierce ruin]

overflow works perfectly fine

it just needs time to warmup

[signal nimbus]

Merge into one line. Split into two, split both into three, merge one of the six back into the one.

[topaz hedge]

So I haven't been back on my world in a bit since I've started a new one, but for anyone curious.

here's the setup, with a smart splitter with overflow going out into a storage container

our miner is doing just fine

The overflow from the smart splitter however, that's quite interesting

[fierce ruin]

my miner is finer tho...

[fierce ruin]

@topaz hedge Why so many Sinks?
Wouldn't one do the job just as well?
Are you trying to waste power or is it just a test rig for manifolds? Or?

[topaz hedge]

mk5 belt test

for which I've come to the conclusion that a splitter doing it's thing, splitting the belt in 2 or 3 drops the throughput of a mk5 belt.

[fierce ruin]

Aha, thanks! I was just curious.

[topaz hedge]

yup, at least from my test, it would appear that running a mk5 at 770 or even 775 is fine, at least on my test setup. it's only losing 1-2 coal/min to the overflow

[fierce ruin]

So, do you know, is it just mk5 or does the same happen with other speeds?

[oblique hollow]

according to what i tested, mk 5 speed is only around 774

depending on framerate, ofc

[fierce ruin]

pay to win confirmed

Whut?

pay for better pc---> more throughput
...
...
Profit?

Oh.

[topaz hedge]

what framerate did you get in your test @oblique hollow

[oblique hollow]

you think i would check that

hah.

[topaz hedge]

I dunno, i figured you did. you know being through and all

mine was probably around here give or take for most of it while i tested

[oblique hollow]

well, if you say its around 770 to 775 and i say its 774, but my save is tiny, theeeen it must be less variable than we thought

i can later on load up my save at test the average fps near the area where i did my test

[topaz hedge]

I'm just guessing based off of what I can visually see from overflow. since I'm back on my lovely bigass world. I can empty the overflow container, and write down my playtime and get a closer guess maybe XD

[fierce ruin]

are you timing with a 60 belt?

[oblique hollow]

its still less than 2 % inaccuracy

[topaz hedge]

less than 2% on two very different worlds and likely different setups/measuring methodes

[topaz hedge]

No, xD it's the same setup i did way back, just mk5 belts into a manifold of 13 sinks with mk1 belts going into the sinks.. to simulate machines drawing 60/min x:

[fierce ruin]

no I meant timing using a belt

[topaz hedge]

I think if I test this anymore, I'm going to actually build a little factory and get some production involved.. because best I can tell, the belts feeding the sinks are still full, so I'm curious if it'll actually effect production

[fierce ruin]

like a large group of items just to time how long the test goes but then I realized that's a bad idea

[topaz hedge]

I'm timing it based on overflow, either by coal stuck in the miners buffer, or what's overflowed out of the smart splitter into a storage container

pretty much going off the game determining if there's room on the belt to output an item. and so far, from miner to sink, it works at a full 780, even with a smart splitter with one output going to overflow, I'm still getting 780. assuming the game engine is doing what it's supposed to and extracting 780/min ore. if that's off well.. idk then

[wind spade]

Try also adding overflow at the end of the manifold

[glacial hemlock]

Sink manifold? That opens my eyes.

[slate plume]

Since one splitter can only split into 2 or 3 even flows it’s not possible to obtain a reduced fraction with a dividend that’s a multiple of any other prime number. Using splitters and mergers you can never obtain 1/5. If you want a perfectly balanced production line without any overflow you will probably need to underclock some machines. Not sure if it’s manageable or even useful tho.

[rancid ember]

So, going into aluminium production just for like a storage room should we do as much as possible to avoid oil? I looked and it seems that we can. We are setting up in the Western Dune forest with the massive nitrogen wells.

[fierce ruin]

Actually, you can get 1/5 using only splitter and merger, if your input isn't full: basically you split in 6 then you merge one of this 6 output back to your initial input. Balancers can exist for any integer split needed. But anyway, i don't think exact balancers are needed in this game.

[frosty pawn]

if you let the machines fill up with input, that will serve as a good enough buffer to make a manifold work at 100% so balancers are a waste of effort and space

[frosty owl]

So ideally one could avoid the issue by
-Adding an "accuracy overflow" (AcOf for short) before the manifold he wants to feed
-Merge the AcOf with the last line of the manifold or even just after the first split of the manifold
And the issue would be solved without using ISCs, right?

Though, I wonder HOW does the first splitter of the manifold in your example manage to have the belt behind it back up even though it has plenty of throughput...

Would changing the rules for splitting change that, I wonder...
Eg: instead of "coal" on all 3 outputs, have the 2 sides go for "overflow" instead

[wicked tinsel]

its very simple, overflow is bugged

the problem is at overflow part, not the splitter after it

you dont even need such complicated setup to reproduce it

drop a container, connect output to input, drop smart splitter on it

it will slowly drain to overflow

[bronze silo]

when a miner cannot push enough resources due to belts being backed up, do they draw less power or the same?

[oblique hollow]

they turn on and off, but still consume max power

like every machine does

[bronze silo]

good to know

thanks

[wind spade]

do they? I thought turned off machine consumes less power

or rather consumes 0.1 MW

[oblique hollow]

well. the do consume only 0.1 MW when they turn off

but when they turn back on, they consume max

they dont..... self regulate, is what i meant

[wind spade]

well yeah but the question was how much power it consumes when output is full, so your answer was kinda misleading

[oblique hollow]

@bronze silo pinging you incase i explained things wrongly

[bronze silo]

heh

lemmie get the pop corn 😛

[oblique hollow]

not neccessary

[bronze silo]

just teasing

I appreciate the clarification

[wind spade]

if output is full, machine consumes 0.1 MW, if machine is producing, it consumes full power. There's nothing in between

[oblique hollow]

if machine on = max power at set percentage
if machine off= 0.1 MW

[wind spade]

there's also some delay between turning on and turning off, not sure how that works 🤷‍♂️

[oblique hollow]

afaik the delay does not ramp up power

its simply the power graph being slow

[bronze silo]

likely

[wind spade]

well idk what power graph displays, but I know there's a delay before a machine starts working

and most likely also a delay before the machine stops working

so technically the average power usage should be the same as without delay

[oblique hollow]

power storage will compensate it or something

or just underclock

[frosty owl]

That's why he made the setup
I just forgot he HAD to use overflow on one of the outputs (I assumed they were all 3 on "coal" for some reason)

[fierce ruin]

Can someone give me a rundown on the new meta. When I was last in late game Caterium was the most valuable resource and oil was scarce. Now I hear people talking about all oil circuit board factories and cannot comprehend it. That was taboo before.

And apparently quartz is now super valuable because of aluminum?

[bleak coral]

How long has it been since you played?

I mean off the top of my head, we have way more oil now and since Update 3 at least it's always been able to be stretched pretty far because of the alts heavy oil residue, diluted fuel (either form), and recycled plastic/rubber. So a little oil goes a long way.

Update 4 made aluminum a lot more bauxite efficient and faster so you don't need nearly as big a setup to get a bunch. But it also made it a lot more wanted. It's efficient enough though that you don't need to add quartz and can get away with using the pure if you need to save the quartz for other stuff. So I would actually say that aluminum needs quartz less now than it used to. But it helps stretch you bauxite further if you can spare it.

And from my perspective quartz and caterium are basically the same: they can be used in a lot of alts and a lot of alts get rid of them. So where you want to use either it's gonna depend on what you're doing and what's the best way to stretch them out for your specific plan. They're both often used for circuit board, high-speed connectors, and computers though.

although specifically on circuit boards, I don't believe electrode is meta cause it does still eat a ton of oil cause it uses all that coke

which doesn't benefit from the diluted fuel -> recycled setup

[fierce ruin]

I agree with Lund on the state of the "meta". But it also depend a lot on how much you want to build; if your goal is to produce max sink point, maxing aluminum seem to be the best, and quartz help a lot in that (and caterium a bit less, imo). But if you just want to produce a bit of everything, quartz isn't as important.

[high wave]

also caterium is pretty much infinite

11040 ore > 5520 ingots > 66240 quickwire per min

using pure and fused alts

[glacial hemlock]

You can't skip quartz for RCU at all.
Most of the other cases quartz and caterium are interchangeable

[sullen cloud]

Scarcity of oil and caterium had been meta with release and update 2. starting with u3 the amount of alt recipes has approx been doubled up to 89 now. This is the reason why it’s now more important to know what you want to maximize for (if at all) and what resource might be considered scarce. But oil, cannot be considered scarce any more

[fierce ruin]

The last time I went "late late" was in update 2. I'm still playing on update 3 because mods.

[bleak coral]

what mod are you waiting on that you're not updating the game?

[fierce ruin]

Basically all of them lol

It's heavily modded

Idk which ones have and haven't updated but I'm sure there are many on my list

[bleak coral]

Most of them have been updated

[fierce ruin]

Refined power?

MOAR?

check ficsit app

or the channel in the modding server

[fierce ruin]

no and no

[bleak coral]

I mean you can't wait on them forever, how long are you gonna wait?

[fierce ruin]

I'm gonna finish this playthrough and then do a vanilla one

either way modded assets have been know to break on updates

But I still have stuff I want to do in this playthrough

[bleak coral]

fair enough

[fierce ruin]

350 hrs in and haven't even done steel yet. This is my most OCD save to date lol

Im only going through tier 6 tho cause tier 7 and 8 got majorly reworked

And don't want to do old aluminum again lol

[chilly elm]

Just finished my nuclear power plant which produces 300,000 MW and my whole uranium fuel rod + Plutonium fuel rod factories +nuclear plant consumes around 90,000 MW which is around 3:1 ratio
So,Is fuel generator and turbofuel production more efficient compared to nuclear stuff or is it the same ratio

[mystic moon]

You can get more power out on nuclear

[simple hawk]

You would need a ton more buildings to do that with fuel

[fierce ruin]

Is there an updated spreadsheet for best alt recipes in U4? The only one I have is for U3

one guy made one forgot who tho...

[sand garnet]

Wiki is being updated with stuff soon™️

[fierce ruin]

https://www.reddit.com/r/SatisfactoryGame/comments/mqwzjb/my_indepth_analysis_of_the_newchanged_update_4/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share

Found it

[wind spade]

it's much better to check how to make certain item rather than comparing alts alone

[fierce ruin]

Yea ofc

It should be divided by item and then compare the recipes

[wind spade]

you can never compare two recipes alone and expect complete result

to compare properly you always have to compare paths through recipe tree

[narrow zealot]

Using alternate recipes begets using more alternate recipes ( you want to do heavy flexible modular frames which uses more concrete is better to pair that with wet concrete as an easy example) so theres at the moment no definitive answer.

[topaz hedge]

I think, it's safe to say manifolds and balancers should work up to 770/min. Overflowing in that way may work although I might not be the best to try as I've had issues with injected manifolds

[topaz hedge]

Overflow isn't bugged. if I remove the smart splitter and overflow, material backs up in the miner.

[bleak coral]

if you keep the throughput low enough does it also not back up into the overflow ISC?

[candid tundra]

Hey everyone I thought this might be appropriate to put here...
Basically I've made an npm package for parsing the Docs.json file provided by CoffeeStain (with all the game metadata). Very similar to the work other people who have made calculator sites and so on have already done, but packaged up neatly as a node module. I made it for a project I'm working on but thought it would be cool to share as its own package other people can use.
Anyway here it is: https://github.com/lydianlights/satisfactory-docs-parser

[topaz hedge]

as in reduce the miners throughput to less than 780?

[bleak coral]

yeah below where it won't backup into the miner, at that point does the overflow splitter still sometimes send stuff to the ISC?

[fierce ruin]

increase miner until there's overflow?

would you even need an isc in that case

[topaz hedge]

I'll try dropping it a bit.

[fierce ruin]

cause you'd go to the max # where there is no failure

[topaz hedge]

if nothing else I'll be able to dial in the exact throughput of a mk5 belt feeding a manifold

[bleak coral]

it's to see if the overflow gets sometimes accidentally triggered, or if that's just because of the inaccuracy of mk5 belts

[fierce ruin]

miner stopping or filling being the failure condition

[bleak coral]

the question I'm trying to answer is: is there a throughput where the overflow gets triggered but it wouldn't've backed up the miner

to isolate if the overflow is a separate or related bug to poor belt performance

[topaz hedge]

right now a failure condition is overflow.. since any triggering of overflow is caused by the splitter not splitting a mk5 belt fast enough

#math-and-meta message in this setup, if i remove the smart splitter with overflow, material backs up in the miner

[fierce ruin]

yes, my method is just another way of measuring the mk5 limit

we might be talking the same thing tho

@ lund Aw seeing the pic I see what you mean

[topaz hedge]

Although, if we can come to the conculsion that a mk5 belt can safely handle 770-775 I'd say that's a pretty good guideline to tell people. much better than saying don't go over 700

an exact number would be best.. but someone else will have to build and test it too, so we'll have identical setups, but different machines and fps

so if anyone has a world that can run at a steady 60 fps to test it, that'd be great. I get between 22-30 lol

[fierce ruin]

have you tried GFN? (given enough wifi ofc)

[bleak coral]

I can get 60 if I'm not anywhere busy, and if at even 22-30 it can still do 770-775 then it seems like the error isn't that big

I'll set one up to run overnight and record FPS data too

[bleak coral]

actually probably do this tomorrow, a little tired to do it tonight

[topaz hedge]

no rush xD

[peak basalt]

whats the maximum clean nuclear build?

dont care about how many plutonium fuel rods i can make, its more about getting rid of the waste.

[chilly elm]

One plutonium rod takes exactly 200 waste pm so if you’re nuclear setup produces waste in a multiple of 200 you can setup a factory for plutonium rods and sink it

For me its 7 plutonium rods but it takes an extra 30,000+ MW of power
so, i would recommend doing 6:4
6 part goes to sink and 4 produces power producing a very little waste to manage

[chilly elm]

What is there a relation between frames and throughput of a belt??

[fierce ruin]

How much plastic and rubber you all produce? I am just wondering

[chilly elm]

4800 rubber and 5600 plastic

[fierce ruin]

Noice

[glacial hemlock]

150 plastic and 50 rubber for starter.

Usually plastic heavy when you start up, and more rubber towards the late game as you unlock more useful alts

[frosty owl]

Not particularly (AFAIK) though that is still being tested
It's just that mk5 belts split badly when close to their max throughput. See linked messages in that convo for examples with pictures

(BTW, you may want to tell Mase what recipes you're using too, for plutonium ^^)

[sullen cloud]

I did experiment with a 780 rubber and 780 plastic setup some weeks ago and the result was that maxed out 600 pipes and 780 belts had a ‚loss’ of approx 10% and 7%, ie 60 fuel and 55 items/ min. with FPS around 30 @topaz hedge @bleak coral

the 780 rubber setup ends in a smart splitter, which leads to a succeeding production line and the overflow goes to a sink. However, the last refinery in the production line was not running at 100% but there’s rubber stuck in the output, regardless of the succeeding sink

[chilly elm]

oh yeah sure
@peak basalt

[fierce ruin]

do u guys use steel rotor recipe for making motors?

[sand garnet]

i do, because im lazy and its easy

[fierce ruin]

lol

same

[wind spade]

copper rotor better for resource efficiency tho

[mortal timber]

Can somebody check out the math on this?

[chilly elm]

thats wrong i think

maximum possible encased uranium using all uranium nodes is about 1700 pm

[mortal timber]

Is it because of the absurd amount of sulfur?

[deft lichen]

max nuclear is exactly 1.19 TW

so you did something wrong there

[chilly elm]

and ussing blenders to make them is even more efficient about 1050 encased uraniumpm

[mortal timber]

alr Ill try fixing it, thank you

[chilly elm]

not sulfur uranium is limited here

theres only 2100 uranium

[mortal timber]

all mk3 on all nodes all overclocked to 250%

[chilly elm]

which can max produce 1700 encased uranium

[chilly elm]

yeah considering that

[mortal timber]

I planned this out when I was in tier 4 for the late game.

[frosty owl]

You can use Greeny's tool to easily check your numbers

[mortal timber]

What is the amount of fuel fuel gens take per min? I forgot.

[chilly elm]

12 m^3 pm

for 100% clock generating 150 mw

Here...

[mortal timber]

I am 99% sure the math checks out on this fuel plant.

[bleak coral]

This is interesting cause wolfgrim has about the same FPS as you but is experiencing a 0.6-1.2% error rate. I'm thinking there's possibly two things adding to your number.

1. Overflow does sometimes totally take resources it shouldn't.
2. The startup time after a machine shuts down is reducing the efficiency more than the belt is losing throughput.

[chilly elm]

yeah a machine resumes only after some specific number of items gets collected in its buffer

[bleak coral]

It need enough items for one cycle

So the buffer actually needs 2x the items for one cycle when it completes one or it'll stop.

[chilly elm]

i think

yes

[bleak coral]

you can just watch it do it, I have that's how it works

also was that max nuke using fertile uranium?

cause you can't make 50 of both

[chilly elm]

no u can make both 50 i just calculated on tools site

[bleak coral]

did you do them in separate tabs and use fertile? cause that means you're using more uranium than exists

fertile is the only way to get that many plutonium rods, and that's ignoring that uranium then needs to be used for both

[chilly elm]

yeah ik

[chilly elm]

none the item is more than world resource count

[bleak coral]

that's too much uranium waste, 1 rod/m makes 50 waste per minute

for uranium

[chilly elm]

no its 0.4 rod for 50 waste pm

250 %overclocked

[bleak coral]

no, 0.2 rods make 10 waste per minute

[chilly elm]

thats plutonium uel rod creating 10 plutonium waste pm

[bleak coral]

no 0.1 plutonium makes 1 plut waste per minute

[chilly elm]

ohh yeah thats right

sorry

so its 50 uranium rods and 20 plutonium rods for total of 1137500 Mw

i thought it produces 50 waste pm for 0.4 of rod :/

[bleak coral]

yeah idk how you got that 🤷‍♂️

maybe looking at the amount of waste it makes per cycle rather than the per minute number?

[chilly elm]

yeah i didnt read that properly

[bleak coral]

more precisely the max is 50.4 uranium and 22.4 plutonium, for 1,190,000 MW

[chilly elm]

👀

[simple hawk]

👀

[bleak coral]

@deft lichen I turned off coke steel so it'd use solid steel and it decided that it'd be best to use charcoal. And also that the wood should be represented as 100+ nodes. lol

So uh, needs some work lol

[magic shadow]

lmaoooo

[bleak coral]

looooooong boi

[deft lichen]

"power-wise, crafting charcoal is better than just mining it, might as well use it"

[bleak coral]

It might not be? Cause the constructors take power

[magic shadow]

which tool is that lund

[deft lichen]

SCIM (the C, not the IM)

[bleak coral]

but in simple mode

[magic shadow]

do you think anthor needs a ping about this then?

[bleak coral]

maybe, I can go bug him on his discord

[wind spade]

I think he kinda gave up on the calculator and mostly works on the map

but not sure

[bleak coral]

I doubt I'm gonna use it, but I can open an issue on his github if he still cares. So..... 🤷‍♂️

[wind spade]

sure thing 😛

[bleak coral]

it's uh just choosing not to use recycled rubber and I can't make it, so I guess there ends my experiment to get it to do something rational

huh I think the calculator is favoring fast recipes, not efficient ones

or maybe low building count, but that's not always true either

cause it chose flexible frame over encased frame

[wind spade]

does it? iirc it just uses alt in place of normal recipe if that alt is selected

similarly to how my old tools worked

and if there's multiple alts then it either picks the last/first selected, or the last/first defined in the list of alts

[bleak coral]

oh, so it's very basic, but then why won't it use recycled then? it chooses recycled plastic but vanilla rubber

[wind spade]

well that was just my guess

may be different, won't know without looking at code 😛

[bleak coral]

I suppose I could do the sensible thing and just ask him, but then it wouldn't be a mystery to solve 😛

[simple hawk]

https://daniel2013.github.io/satisfactory/calculator i prefer this calc tbh

[wind spade]

I'm interested in hearing why do you prefer that one over others 🙂 (as I made one of them and I'd like to improve it as much as possible)

[simple hawk]

Which did you make? Id like to check it out

[wind spade]

https://u4.satisfactorytools.com/

[simple hawk]

I like this one because of the layout i guess, it makes it pretty simple to use certain alt recipes or disable some

[wind spade]

I guess you haven't used mine yet then, since that's also possible there 😉

[simple hawk]

oh this one is nice to lol

[wind spade]

but ofc anyone can use any tool they want, I'm just collecting feedback, so I can improve what I can

[simple hawk]

Oh the other thing i liked about the first one was that it saves what you have entered after closing the window, but it seems yours does aswell

[wind spade]

yeah, it does save. Tho it doesn't yet save the graph if you move nodes around, that's planned for the future 😉

[topaz hedge]

Yay nooclear planning

[bleak coral]

I haven't use that other one much, but from poking around it just now it doesn't seem to have any functions yours doesn't

but I have see it in picture before, I do like it's node layout and how the nodes are setup better

it's not as spider-web-like and I like the in/outs on each node

[topaz hedge]

any plans to include water extractors in the tool?

[simple hawk]

I think i prefer your alt recipe thing, with the big checklist

[topaz hedge]

or miners

more or less for the sole purpose of power consumption.

[wind spade]

water extractors would be nice indeed. Miners... pretty hard to figure out a good way due to different node purity and overclocking preference

[topaz hedge]

overclocking can be ruled out pretty much I think, as the rest of the tool doesn't account for it. but node purity def be an issue

[wind spade]

well overclocking will eventually be included as well

[topaz hedge]

I guess maybe, if you could right click on the bubbles and it brings up a menu and set overclock that way?

or something. apparently if you right click it comes up with save image lol

[wind spade]

the thing is that it could then force a recalculation

if you e.g. optimise for power (which is a thing in future version)

[simple hawk]

overclocking for resource nodes is super common tho

but ye there alot of variations

having as just a number seems fine

[bleak coral]

part of me wants to say miners shouldn't be included in calculations, but if you solve for power they matter

[simple hawk]

you would need to manually input pure/normal/impure and overclocks tho

[bleak coral]

I just don't know what's better: not including them at all, including an average power but not individual miners, or adding them in manually for power calculations

[wind spade]

yeah, that's what I've been struggling with for past... 2 years I think 😄

[topaz hedge]

Yeah, that was my suggestion too.. show water extractors in the power panel only maybe

and maybe either automatically add miners based on no overclock and a normal node in the power panel. i dunno

[wind spade]

water extractors will be a thing in the future yeah

[topaz hedge]

I guess it doesn't seem that useful. the only real use of it would be to see how much more power something like pure alts use over non pure

[wind spade]

currently working on a big rewrite, so they will be included there

[bleak coral]

kwjcool has assigned averaged energy per ore, so that's some insight at least

on the wiki analysis

[topaz hedge]

that's sorta interesting there's like a whole darkside to the satisfactory wiki that I've been discovering lately lol

[bleak coral]

I find the wet concrete observation interesting, according to his averaged ore power it barely takes more energy per concrete than the default recipe

[topaz hedge]

odd. makes sense though, since the refineries are so much faster at producing it vs constructors

[bleak coral]

I think it's kinda cool, and yeah they're over 5x faster in addition to being more efficient so it makes some sense

[viral socket]

Can anyone help me figure out how to split 12 pipes of 450 fluid into 15 pipes of 360 fluid, preferably without valves?

[cedar mica]

12x450/300 is 18. Then devide 3 of those into 5 each and merge with the 15 others

But will never be exact without valves

Alternative is to use packagers as balancers, as you can make them produce exact amounts

[wind spade]

Ideally you don't want to do any balancing and use the 450 pipes directly

[viral socket]

except i have 15 rows requiring 360 each

[wind spade]

Make rows requiring 450 each instead

[cedar mica]

Or split at the source, so you have 360 pipes, instead of 450

[viral socket]

it gets kinda iffy with distribution with that many

[cedar mica]

Just requires running 3 more pipes

[wind spade]

Or that yeah

Merge up to 360 only

[viral socket]

sry, but cant split at the source because of how everything else behind it is split up

[wind spade]

Pipes work nicely even when at full capacity, if you do a loop

[viral socket]

i tried doing a full 600 pipe once, entering in the middle and splitting half to either end. the ends never wanted to fill at all

even after several hours the ends never filled

[wind spade]

That's why you need the loop

[cedar mica]

I assume we are talking fuel. 3 packagers, will reduce each pipe down to 360, once you have adjusted the clockspeed. Then you just unpack to get the missing 3 pipes

[viral socket]

actually, im doing 5400 turbo fuel into 1200 generators 😛

[wind spade]

And 450 pipes work nicely even without loop

[cedar mica]

Same thing, just need 4.5 packagers

[viral socket]

but 450 doesnt fit into a nice-ish square-ish building

[wind spade]

Make some walkways or stuff for it to be square 🤷

[viral socket]

3 floors of 400 generators, 70x60 foundation floors

[cedar mica]

You got 3 solutions: Resplit at machines making it, resplit/packaged at end or rebuild...

[wind spade]

I'd feed it with the 450 pipes, merge every 4 of them at the end to make the 5th pipe

[viral socket]

what if i merged 4 pipes into 3 for 600m3 each, then split into two each, with one of the 6 split and merge into the other 5?

and just do that 2 more times?

crap, cant exactly split 1 pipe evenly into 5 pipes...

[wind spade]

why not? pipes balance themselves anyway

you could easily just make something like this

12 pipes
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  
+-++-+++-+--+-++-+++-+--+-++-+++-+
| |  | | |  | |  | | |  | |  | | |  
15 pipes

[viral socket]

theorhetically, if these buffers were nearly full, then the 4 incoming pipes would just fill them as they were emptied at 360m3 per minute each by the generators right?

[versed violet]

Actually, depending how you price the raw resources (base mining rate vs max overclock), the wet concrete becomes more energy efficient than base recipe. Although my calculations insist Rubber concrete is the most efficient at 60% energy usage of both 😅

[topaz hedge]

Sadly... they don't greenie

the pipes themselves seem to do okay, but other weird shit starts happening.

If the input = output, then the fluid buffers, in theory should remain static.

[bleak coral]

I don't think that's right, at least if you're using an efficient rubber recipes. Maybe vanilla comes out on top. Though of interesting note if you're using the efficient rubber recipes it saves enough limestone to actually be more weighted efficiency than wet. Though since limestone's only job is to be concrete, not a lot demands huge quantities of it, there's a ton of it, and wet concrete exits I still don't think it's a good recipe.

[topaz hedge]

rubber concrete is good though.. just.. not outside of hmf production in silly numbers. but again that depends. it's kinda a recipe like rubber cables.

[viral socket]

it should be 4x450m3 in and 5x360m3 out per minute, for a total of 1800m3 in/out

[topaz hedge]

outside of acu production in silly numbers, rubber cable is useless

[bleak coral]

has anyone proposed feeding the 12 rows with 450, then splitting the last 3 pipes each into 4 of the rows from back? It'd be looped, avoid max throughput, and not need any silly junction stuff that might go wrong

[bleak coral]

I guess it's fine, I just don't see a reason to use up oil when wet is basically tied for weighted efficiency, and what else am I gonna do with all this limestone anyway. Like even in HMF production I'd favor wet.

[topaz hedge]

I think, it's been awhile since I've done anything with fuel gens. but... 1) Im not 100% sure on feeding 400 gens with 1800 tf.. because input = output.

[viral socket]

every time i try to progress with nuclear, i get a headache at how complicated it is and give up...

[bleak coral]

like wet and rubber are so close in weighted efficiency that greeny's calc favor rubber while the points kwjcool uses for the wiki favors wet, and I'm pretty sure it's because they're within a margin of error for weighted estimation

[versed violet]

Correction: rubber not good, wet concrete wins by ~4% with base recipe.
Had my calc excel broken when adding columns

[bleak coral]

by base recipe, you mean base recipe for rubber?

[topaz hedge]

but if you do 4 groups of 100 per two pipes, that'll be 450 m3 across 2 pipes feeding from both ends, that should work just fine.

[versed violet]

No, Concretium in constructiors vs wet concrete

[topaz hedge]

so you'd have 8 pipes feeding your 400 fuel gens.

[versed violet]

What is fun, if you assume all nodes running at 100% miners, base concrete recipe is more efficient, but when you overclock miners to max output, wet concrete wins.

[topaz hedge]

I think that'll be okay. it wouldn't hurt if you added another pipe that's centered in each row, and is centered with your production setup

[viral socket]

this is how each floor of my fuel gens are currently set up, you are telling me to shrink it to 16 rows and extend it further back, and then have the 450 feed from both ends?

[topaz hedge]

but, in all honestly, I think over time, you might end up with a generator or two that're starving. because production=consumption.

hm

[viral socket]

i am planning on letting the system run for a bit to fill up fluid buffers so that it will throughput 600m3 in the beginning until they are all full

so theorhetically, the full fluid buffer should drain until the gens are full, and then should stay static because input=output

[topaz hedge]

I've done really stupid stuff that pushes the engine to the limit on some things. but on save/load.. werid shit happens with fluids

anyway, the way you have it setup. looks like it should work as is

[viral socket]

yeah... you can say that again. on my previous build i should have had a static fluid buffer, and while the buffer was nearly full on save and close, it was near empty when i checked on it some time after loading

[topaz hedge]

but if its possible maybe add a 3rd pipe to the end of the row?

[viral socket]

as if all the fluid in the pipes vanished into thin air

3rd pipe? theres only 1 pipe connected 2 rows in the middle of the rows

[topaz hedge]

oh.

I thought you were feeding it from the north end with 1 pipe per row... that's how I'd do it

[viral socket]

erm... hang on...

[topaz hedge]

hold on xD

this is how I would feed this

[viral socket]

thick red lines are the input lines, being split into 2 rows in the middle of the rows

[bleak coral]

oh on topic of concrete recipes: we're all agreed fine concrete is garbo right? Like adding silica for the second slowest recipe? What even is this trying to do?

[viral socket]

i had already forgotten that one... thanks for bringing it up and reminding me there was such a garbage alt >_>

[bleak coral]

it's soooo bad, I like to think of a use for most alts but some are just..... not good

[versed violet]

According to my biased clalculations, its in third place ater base and wet. Rubber concretium is fourth.

[topaz hedge]

I can find a use for most alts people think are trash... tbh.. people hate rubber cables... I say try to make 120 acu's a miunte without it. but fine concrete... Nope

[versed violet]

I'm sure the recipe was added solely for symmetry with cheap silica

[bleak coral]

I guess, sure why not

[topaz hedge]

i can't possible think of a use for fine concrete.. but why not make cheap silica to make fine concrete lol

[bleak coral]

oh sure yeah, if you're doing fine concrete of course you do cheap silica too, but it doesn't save it

[versed violet]

Rubber cable is ok. using for my project parts tower instead of shipping ton of ingots to make wire then spend whole floor to make cables

[wind spade]

well if you pre-fill the pipes, then it's not an issue

[topaz hedge]

I saw a twitch streamer using fine concrete.

once. lol

[versed violet]

Cheapo silica is like 2 times worse from energy perspective than using base quartz recipe

[wind spade]

my tool actually prefers rubber concrete as the most resource efficient recipe 🤔

[topaz hedge]

Eh, like I said werid stuff with fluids when a game is loaded. case in point

some of it isn't super horrible. like my setup recoveres after a bit... there's plenty of people's whos setups don't.. but that could be bad engineering prehaps a bit. I do hope as they get closer to 1.0 they spend some time sorting out some of this weird stuff

[versed violet]

Try changing avilable oil to exclude the terribly power inefficient oil wells (as I did)?

[bleak coral]

oil wells aren't power inefficient, they're about the same as normal nodes

[wind spade]

wdym? changing available oil doesn't change weights

[bleak coral]

varies from well to well, but it's between impure and pure on power efficiency

water wells are the ones that are always less efficient than the extractors

[topaz hedge]

they're still nice. lol

[bleak coral]

If they existed when I did my high-speed connectors I probably would've used 'em, they're right by the copper I used in 'em. I didn't do steamed or pure cause I didn't feel like getting the water there.

[topaz hedge]

I don't really consider power efficiently to be something that should matter lategame with the large amounts of power you can get from nuclear, and turboful. if you're tier 7/8 and you're still worried about power.. you didn't do something right

[bleak coral]

oh, hmmmm ran the numbers again and I guess I remembered it wrong. the all impure oil resource well is less power efficient than an impure node but the better one is between a normal and pure node in efficiency.

[topaz hedge]

hm.. this is no overclocks yes?

[bleak coral]

yeah but'd scale same with overclocks right? cause both of them would be multiplied by the same number ~4/2.5

[topaz hedge]

I think wells fall under the extractor catagory, and should be OC'd to the heavens

[bleak coral]

~4x power / 2.5x production

[wind spade]

how does overclocking wells work? you overclock the middle thingy and all have increased production?

[bleak coral]

yup

[topaz hedge]

Kinda, but since it's exponential it's a big difference between 40MW and 150MW

yup

[wind spade]

then you're getting much more oil out of single shard than on nodes, right?

[bleak coral]

yeah, it's shard efficient, but that's super unimportant

like we have so many shards

even without doggos

[wind spade]

well that also means that the power increase, while it may be big, is also spread out to all of the extractors

[bleak coral]

I was comparing power/total output of well to power/output of node

[wind spade]

e.g if it's 300 MW, but you have 6 extractors in the well, then it's 50 MW per extractor

[bleak coral]

it's better to compare the total, cause not all sub-nodes of a resource well are the same purity

[versed violet]

or have the same count of satellite nodes too

[bleak coral]

well they can be, but they might not

[wind spade]

well in any case it's still most resource efficient 🤷‍♂️ on paper

[bleak coral]

kwjcool gives it to wet by like a millimeter: https://satisfactory.fandom.com/wiki/Concrete

I call it basically tied

[wind spade]

seems there's error in math tho

12.61 + 3.79 isn't 17.05

[topaz hedge]

So we all agree that fine concrete is trash

[bleak coral]

whoops

[versed violet]

It all depends what weights you give to base resources.
Did you max absolutely all nodes in the world? Wet wins.
Do you have only need for couple pure nodes and can simply get another pure node -> base recipe wins

[wind spade]

Did you max absolutely all nodes in the world? > rubber wins

[bleak coral]

meh to base recipe, I like wet concrete, and it barely costs more energy
the rubber vs wet we're talking about it was in relation to weighted resource efficiency and not power

base recipe is so slow

it's fine if you need like a bit of concrete, but if you need a bunch of it I'd rather have wet

of course that only really happens for HMFs, so lol

[wind spade]

you can convert all limestone into concrete for the cost of just 3524 crude oil

[versed violet]

but that is 1/3rd of oil on the map

[bleak coral]

not really selling it lol, I mean you hardly need to be efficient with limestone

I'll take the free efficiency from just adding water, but I'd rather save the oil for other stuff that's more in demand

[wind spade]

that's also all limestone on the map and when did you ever need 47574 concrete/min? 😛

[bleak coral]

I think the only thing that wants that much concrete is max HMF, and that's not a realistic project in the least lol

cause that's the map killer

or I guess max fused is now

[wind spade]

sure, but people need to stop thinking about oil as a rare resource, with oil tripling we have tons of it available for pretty much anything

[versed violet]

most likely bound by coal/oil for hmf

[bleak coral]

oh I absolutely agree, I'd love to see the pushback stop on oil recipes because it's still perceived as rare

I just think this particular one isn't compelling enough to use

[topaz hedge]

oil being limited is old logic too, seems like you run out of something else before oil

even in U3 I didn't feel like oil was that limited.

[wind spade]

max hmf is bound by... limestone, sulfur, coal, iron, copper and oil

[versed violet]

If barely no one maxes the map resources, then we should probably treat them all as same weight, unless transporting becomes a problem.

[wind spade]

also uses heavy encased for most and finishes it with a bit of heavy flexible

[wind spade]

that would lead to using recipes that use "rare" resources, which would make the player run out of that resource

[bleak coral]

I should take a new screenshot of max fused with max leftover HMF

that should hurt lol

[viscid shadow]

Any easy way to measure out 50m for water pumps?

[wind spade]

walls

[bleak coral]

also there should be a big ring after the pump, unless you go too horizontal

[versed violet]

Running out is only relevant at bigger production scale.

[wind spade]

players that don't max map also usually don't travel far for new resources, so maxing a resource for them can mean "I've used my two nodes nearby and I don't want to do 4km transport from other side of the map"

[wind spade]

also:

• I wouldn't move water upwards
• if you really want to move it upwards, it's better to just put more pumps rather than risk less efficiency

[viscid shadow]

its not water its oil

[wind spade]

it's relevant for any fluid

[topaz hedge]

yes, easy way is to build a tower.

[versed violet]

Walking distance is a valid case for giving resources weights then.

[wind spade]

it's super subjective one

especially since players can start anywhere

[topaz hedge]

build something like this to bring your pipes up, then you can easily count walls.

[bleak coral]

If you build straight up you can just use the pump guidelines

[wind spade]

if you want subjective weights, then sure, go for it, any weights would do. But for objectively weighting stuff, you need something that's really objective - like resource rarity on the map

[topaz hedge]

maybe just a checkbox that turns off all weighing of resources then. and then they're all treated equally

[fierce ruin]

wouldn't changing the resource amount change the weight 🤔

[bleak coral]

that would lead to some really weird decisions, weighted efficiency is a great base to work from and then decide for yourself what does and doesn't work for you

[wind spade]

yeah, it does (not in my tool tho, that's yet to be implemented)

[viscid shadow]

I prefer doing it like this

[wind spade]

in the future you'll be able to give the resources your own weights if you want to

or change the weights based on your own limits

[bleak coral]

someone stuck in U2 mentality: "I'm gonna give oil the biggest weight, and you can't stop me!" 😛

[versed violet]

OR: I'm gonna weight resources based on how much electricty I need to extract them.

[topaz hedge]

that's fine too. whatever works.

[fierce ruin]

sum[(weight*resource)...]/MW produced = weighted cost/MW

[topaz hedge]

iron will forever be the highest weighted most precious resource of all! .... right next to copper

[wind spade]

what about water? 😛

[bleak coral]

sure, but firstly that's complicated by different mk of miner and node purity. but also I bet oil is still gonna come out on top a lot. cause the good oil alts trade a handful of oil for a ton of other resources. might actually win even more if you weight it by power

[viscid shadow]

pro tip: if you sink all resources right at the drill, you are technically done

[wind spade]

"I maxed map"

[bleak coral]

no one specified how to max the map

[versed violet]

You still need to make your nuclear setup to power that

[bleak coral]

you could probably get away with coal with that

that's what, like a few thousand MW?

betcha geothermal + coal would let you do that

[fresh geyser]

if i want to build 20 different kind of item is theyre a gold number of basic item by second i should go for?

[bleak coral]

Nope, it all depends on how fast you want to make those items

[topaz hedge]

TLDR.. or listen.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiU_cgb0XhI They spent several weeks working on splitters and mergers lol

Hm, that actually mentioned rebalacing all the recipes in the game to use less o.o

[fresh geyser]

yeah im at that part

they will need to make recipe probably faster if they slow down belt

for balancing

[topaz hedge]

well, what'll happen is they'll slow down all the recipes while keeping ratios the same. that'll mean reducing parts in space elevator and adjusting sink values too. Sounds like a major major thing. Wouldn't count on it happening any time soon.

[fresh geyser]

yeah probably a couple patch before release i would guess

i dont think its a good thing to go slower on low tier belt they already really slow but its my opinion nothing more then that

[bleak coral]

It'd affect stack sizes and building recipes too, cause it's all based around how easy/hard it is to make their materials at a certain speed.

Imagine making mk2 belts but everything is half or even 10x slower.

Also manifolds and how quickly items actually reach their destination to get into a machine. I really hope they don't slow down belts it'd be miserable frankly. Maybe 2x would be fine, but it could be annoying really quickly.

[fresh geyser]

they could stop at tier 5 and call it a day too

[topaz hedge]

I think they were talking about just balancing everything around a mk5 belt, where a fully oc'd mk3 miner on a pure node produces 780

[fresh geyser]

yeah and no belt can get to that

[topaz hedge]

it'll move 780.. most of my tests confimed that, but if there's a splitter or merger involved, it drops it to something around 770

[bleak coral]

You also have like 30fps right? Which they said there were problems for anything below 60fps

[fresh geyser]

the splitter are really bright because they remember what side was last used in the same session to do a good round robin

its use a lot of power to do that

[topaz hedge]

yup. 30 fps if I'm lucky lol

[fresh geyser]

i dont think im at 30 because im triple screen

[topaz hedge]

I have a 12MB save with 2800 machines.. and I can't stand potato graphics lol

[fresh geyser]

yeah my bottle neck is my cpu and ramm my graphic card is a beast lol

[topaz hedge]

anyone who builds enough on here gets hit with a cpu bottleneck. I think that's the same for any building/simulation game

[bleak coral]

Yeah, can't really out-hardware building big, you can only delay the inevitable

[topaz hedge]

That's marv for the QA clips... mcgallon is gonna be so happy to hear they admitted to pipes having issues again. and they sorta gave a timeframe as to when they'll look into it... around u5 :/

[fresh geyser]

i tried to lower shadow and try to find was is cpu intensive in graphic so my base would lag less

[bleak coral]

I definitely stabalized my framerate when I upgraded by CPU, both in this and AC Odyssey

[fresh geyser]

i have a first gen i5 ahahahah

[bleak coral]

but that could've been as much going from DDR3 to DDR4 RAM as anything else

what's the number after i5?

[fresh geyser]

i will look 1 sec

intel core i5 2500K

so second gen sorry

[bleak coral]

theoretically you're only one gen behind minimum spec, but I have a feeling that minimum is gonna get bumped up by the time they're done

[fresh geyser]

yeah i mean my cpu is always at 98% any game i play

lol

[fierce ruin]

more ram and a dedicated gpu that's better than me XD

[fresh geyser]

ho boy

when i will make bigger build i will need to lower even more my graphic

anyway im going back to the drawing board i reamke my base from scratch with tier 4 belt

i found Salt its pretty good for drawing base

[fierce ruin]

salt? I just use draw io

[fresh geyser]

https://autumnfallstudios.itch.io/salt

basic but save me from leaning the size of thing

[frosty owl]

Basic for now

[fresh geyser]

😛

let me guess you the developer or something like that vencam 🙂

[frosty owl]

Nope, the tool is developed by @nimble hinge (Autumn Falls Studios)

[fresh geyser]

gotcha

[frosty owl]

I'm just a fan

But yeah, plenty of functionalities coming soon™️

[fresh geyser]

yeah they up to date that i could see because U4 is already implemented

[frosty owl]

Totally up to date. U4 was when the tool got its public release

[fresh geyser]

interresting

[fresh geyser]

24 item i need to figure how to build in one base lol

[fresh geyser]

ok after a lot of calculation and ratio calculating i got my iron set up

[bleak coral]

that's a lot of screws, is that just going to storage?

[fresh geyser]

no its for building

one sec i have my list

[bleak coral]

yeah that's what I meant, storage for building materials, not being passed along to make another item

[fresh geyser]

ok yeah what i did its get a starting amount of iron produced a certain amount of basic material and use those basic material to make other setup for this

i dont have iron wire yet but i will keep a spot for that

[glacial hemlock]

@fresh geyser if you want to make screw from steel, converting steel to iron rod then screws actually is better from steel beam-screw

[fresh geyser]

ok

i dont have the recipe yet but i will look for that

[bleak coral]

steel screws are basically nice if you need a lot of them, and so you can just 1:1 them into the next machine instead of transporting like 3000+ screws

[fresh geyser]

i dont know yet how many screw i will need

i try to round the number the machine the most i can to get clean 100% machine

[glacial hemlock]

Plot twist: you actually only need screws for rotor and Awesome shop, maybe some equipment, nothing else.

[fresh geyser]

computer, H modular frame, bolted iron plate

rotor

its a lot of screw lol

250 / min with just the plate

in fact i dont have enought screw

200/min

🤦‍♂️

i will take some rest man its a puzzle GN

[glacial hemlock]

Good night, have a nice screw.

[frosty sleet]

is calculating power generation from fuel generators as simple as multiplying the IPM by the Fuel Per Unit divided by the Burn Time? ||(IPM)*(FPU/BT)||? Like, if i under or overclock a generator at the end, is there a need to like, have 2 separate functions added together because of different burn times?

[bleak coral]

I don't know what you mean by fuel per unit. But, you can just get the fuel per minute by dividing 60 by the burn time in seconds, and then divide your parts per minute for the fuel by that for the number of generators you need. Also check out this page to see how clock speeds work on power generators, cause it's a bit weird: https://satisfactory.fandom.com/wiki/Clock_speed#Clock_speed_for_power_generators

Power and consumption scale the same with clockspeed, so you can just multiply the number generators you need by how much power one generators makes to get the total power too.

[regal kayak]

Just in case it wasn't clear - power generation per generator is unaffected by fuel, it is always (initial power capacity) × (clock speed / 100)^(1/1.3) (copypaste from wiki). Initial power capacity for fuel generators is 150 MW.

[fierce ruin]

do you mean?

where MW/gen = (initial power capacity) × (clock speed / 100)^(1/1.3)

Fuel consumed/min = (60/burn time)

[frosty sleet]

I'm looking for the Power Produced from that formula, i think. I know generators work silly with overclocking to some extent, is it as simple as just taking that number (in my case 37.037037...) and multiplying it by the power per 1 gen operating?

[frosty sleet]

And thanks for that clarification as well, That helps a good deal for sure.

[frosty sleet]

I think this one's actually my answer, so thanks for that one too. I appreciate that, I just wasn't sure how OCing a gen works entirely.

[fierce ruin]

since power scales so that fuel always makes the same power per unit, I wonder if you could just calculate power from your burn rate?

1m^3 of fuel is always the same amount of energy regardless of clocking on the gen

not sure would have to math it

[frosty sleet]

If that's the case, than i could totally probably just use the burn rate, yeah. I was just trying to figure out some complicated math equation where i like, rounded down then added the decimal amount of power or something because i like making things complicated. Thanks for the infos

[fierce ruin]

if you want to calculate based on clocking it depends on how you split them up

for example saving the last gen as the (x%1) where x is the # of buildings you need which is one of infinite ways to divide up x

in your case that'd yield (x%1) = .037037... so for clocking power it'd be

(initial power capacity) × (3.7037.../ 100)^(1/1.3) + the 37 * (initial power capacity) *(100/100)^(1/1.3)

simplified to
[(initial power capacity) × (3.7037.../ 100)^(1/1.3)] + [37 * (initial power capacity)]
(initial power capacity)*[(.037037...)^(1/1.3) + 37 ]

[dense dune]

Does anyone know an optimal way to merge multiple conveyors, so that the unused ones (blue) can get pushed into the empty or not maxed ones (purple)? Hope the diagram helps.

Also any conveyor should be able to merge into ANY other

[oblique hollow]

Matrix Balancer..... But those are hell

If the belts dont get used then you may have screwed up some of the connections

[river venture]

Just use cast screws

No need for rods then

Just iron ingots straight to screws

[dense dune]

The example is not specific to screws. I am trying max out each resource (so 111507 (potently) iron plates for instance, and want to enable them to be bused around on one big network. In essence, the merger needs to allow multiple conveyors to essentially act as one.

[fierce ruin]

i think you are looking for belt compressor: https://satisfactory.fandom.com/wiki/Balancer#Belt_compressor

[dense dune]

Thanks, but with about 100 belts I was hoping for a more compact way

[glacial hemlock]

100 belts? You can do it with train stations then....

[sand garnet]

why do you have 100 belts

[glacial hemlock]

Maybe he maxed iron ore? Lol

[topaz hedge]

I have 50 in one area for my main train hub.. I thought it was Overkill but it's not too bad.. they don't split and merge though

[glacial hemlock]

If there are some belts which are certainly to be full at all times, and if their outputs are also the same, then there is no need to balance them

[frosty owl]

If you don't have at least PART of your production localized rather than having it all rely on a giant bus, I fear you'll encounter performance limits waaay before getting to an interesting point :/

[wind spade]

usually if you encounter the need for balancers, you're doing something in a super weird way and you should rather change your approach

[glacial hemlock]

this recipe: "Prepare for trouble. And make it double."

[bronze silo]

hey guys, how many iron plates would one need to build a belt 1km?

[wind spade]

around 500

[bronze silo]

thanks

[glacial hemlock]

1 belt material usually builds 2 meters of belt

[frosty owl]

How much belt can you build with one meter of materials

[fresh geyser]

funny that 1 meters in game is around 1 feet lol

[wind spade]

how do you measure amount of materials with a unit of distance? 🤔

[sand garnet]

yeah the scale of this game isnt really clear, you can literally stand inside the belt connector of machines

[wind spade]

no, you're just a really big person

[sand garnet]

I think it's the camera somehow

[frosty owl]

Isn't that how imperial measurements work?

[sand garnet]

the character ingame is 1.8m afaik, and conveyorbelts are 2m wide, so your character could lay down on a conveyor sideways and still have room left

[bleak coral]

Yeah cause the pioneer is tall, but not inhumanly so

[wind spade]

ah yeah, my car is going with speed of 3 watermelons per plush toy

[sand garnet]

writes citation for speeding

[frosty owl]

[Insert "a deer weights up to 800 hamburgers" meme]

[wind spade]

also imperial unit users: hOw CaN yOu UsE mEtRiC iT's So CoNfUsInG

[fresh geyser]

i mean a vector is pretty much a distance with a amount and a direction

[frosty owl]

A distance is an amount

[fresh geyser]

hmmm

because you have x and y you could go with z too for a 3d vector

plus the lenght of the vector

so 4 data plus de direction and the sens

so its possible to calculated amount with distance that way

[wind spade]

I mean how do you define "a meter of materials" 😛

[fresh geyser]

trial and error?

[wind spade]

well you either have a cubic meter of materials or your materials aren't real 😛

1D material is weird

[fresh geyser]

but you could put 10 meters of belt on the ground and check the cost and divide by 10 XD

[frosty owl]

With SaRcAsM

[magic shadow]

i am about one fridge tall it's that simple :P

[wind spade]

but what if my fridge is taller than your fridge

[magic shadow]

fr tho metric all the way

[magic shadow]

then your fridge is bad

[frosty owl]

The world revolves around me, so my fridge is the universal true unit of measurement

[fresh geyser]

i have 2 fridge and one of them is 3 inch higher then the other

[bleak coral]

Also I like the number 23456, so that's now how many floof fridges it takes to make a floof mile.

[wind spade]

what is inch

[fresh geyser]

around a cm but bigger XD

[wind spade]

only a bit I guess

[fresh geyser]

where i live we use both metric and imperial daily

[river venture]

You mean the UK

[fresh geyser]

nope

[river venture]

Oh well we use both here

[fresh geyser]

ho ok

[river venture]

"This wall is 10 metres tall and 1 mile across"

I hate it

[fresh geyser]

a cup can mean 250 ml and 245 ml for some reason

[oblique hollow]

A superposition of states

The quantum cup

[river venture]

quantum physics

is it a 1 or a 0

[fresh geyser]

quantum is weird because if you look at it or record it its act differently

[oblique hollow]

Because to measure you inevitably have to affect the thing

Quantum stuff is just so small that the measurement affects it

Since you need photons to measure electrons, for example

Its like measuring if a car was driving through a tunnel by having a car drive orthagonal to the tunnel exit and seeing if it crashes into the one entering the tunnels lol

[fresh geyser]

but its dosent awnser the one where the scientist look at it and the effect was change there too

[oblique hollow]

Yeah, photons get to act as both wave and particle up until you measure them...

That satelite interferometer test

[fierce ruin]

Does a line of smart splitters work with assemblers?

For some reason I've never tried it

I'm testing now and it seems to be working

[sand garnet]

why wouldnt it?

[fierce ruin]

Why does everyone use the 2 belts stacked on top of each other then

[sand garnet]

to have more throughput per belt

2 belts are more than 1

[wind spade]

also less issues with overflowing stuff

[swift robin]

i like to make stacks of belts before i even know what to do with them and later on i find something i need to move and then i use them

[glacial hemlock]

1. Make stacked belts
2. Cannot jump over them
3. RIP.

i mean, rip the belt.

[sand garnet]

crouch under?

[glacial hemlock]

Maybe that works for mk1-3. Oh yes, still can slide under for mk4 and 5

[mortal timber]

Jetpack? Hoverpack? Bladerunners if short enough? Walkways? There are a lot of things you can do @glacial hemlock

[sand epoch]

or just climb the stack frame.. o0

[versed violet]

or start the belts on first stackpole?

[versed violet]

smart splitters need overlow valve at end and merging the materials back to main belt in correct proportions, or it all deadlocks

[glacial hemlock]

[versed violet]

Imagine you are eating bag of skittles.
You are only allowed to eat full set of colors at time, and your hand can only fit 20 pieces.
Unless you draw them perfectly in turn, sooner or later you end up with hand full of reds (its always reds, isn't it?)

So what pioners usually do, is to sort their skittles (items) into cups (containers), so they can easily pick a full set every time.
It also allows to easily sink the overflow red skittles by giving them to your less favorite cousin.

[fierce ruin]

best analogy 10/10 would skittle again

[fresh geyser]

here we go with the help of math i was able to get all round up number with my maximum input of coal 🙂

RIP 0.66%

[oblique hollow]

0.66% where

[fresh geyser]

on my last estimate

there was 0.66% on steel pipe

my last test https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/558721941410807812/844775182127071232/unknown.png?width=1440&height=443

[oblique hollow]

Thats 66% missing, not 0.66%

[fresh geyser]

ho ok

[oblique hollow]

0.33 machines = 33% speed

[fresh geyser]

ok im dumb on this then XD

[oblique hollow]

1 = 100%
0.5 = 50%

[fresh geyser]

yeah i can do vector but some thing basic like that i always do mistake

[oblique hollow]

xd

[devout wadi]

hey you guys, we are currently building our aluminum factory and cannot decide which recipe we should use, standard or Alternate: Alclad Casing (the one with copper)?

[fierce ruin]

copper is much easier to get than bauxite

[viscid shadow]

I like the copper one

BTW, in order to deal with water back log. I had an idea. Hear me out. Human centipede your refineries so that the 2nd gets it's water from the first, and the 3rd from the 2nd, and so on and so forth until you get to the end and you loop it all the way back to the start.

you think it would work?

[loud heron]

Its not really a big issue

none of the aluminum systems make surplus water

[viscid shadow]

if the system backs up at all, then it stalls, so yah it's kind of a big issue

[versed violet]

loop the second stage into some refineries in first one, then only fill remaining refs with water and it balances out

[bronze silo]

hey guys, how high up does my first pump need to be here?

[fierce ruin]

measure it in walls

[bronze silo]

how many walls high?

[fierce ruin]

if it's straight from buildings that's a 2.5 wall incline

10m

if it's from a pump there should be a blue ring indicating it's limit

[bronze silo]

yeah, I am trying to work out the optimal place to start the pump

[fierce ruin]

alternatively you can put one temperary pump as low as you can then measure the 2nd pump based on the 1st pump's ui

ez method is just measure with walls

each wall being 4m tall

[bronze silo]

20 max head lift without pumps?

[fresh geyser]

i think tank kill head lift a lot

[fierce ruin]

without pump it's 10m headlift. then 20m with pump mk 1 and 50 with mk2

but pumps mark their headlift

the only reason you'd need to measure walls is for the first climb after the building

[viscid shadow]

Or just connect it to a fluid storage at the top, put a valve going into the storage, and it will suck the water up without pumps

But serious question, why bring water up when you can bring coal down?

[fierce ruin]

in certain places water has to be brought up to be useful such as in crater lakes

since the closed off walls force you to go vertical

[fierce ruin]

always bring coal to water yes

[glacial hemlock]

Either way works, because headlifts are free

[worn tundra]

I need some good reinforced iron plate factory build

[fierce ruin]

refer to https://u4.satisfactorytools.com/production to get your #'s

[worn tundra]

thanks

[quaint sage]

My rule of thumb is to decide how many you want to produce and work backwards

That does mean 1) intermediate products you need e.g. rods, there isn't a surplus of, so plan for some extra 2) when you go up a tier, producing the next component will probably consume all of that and more so you want to have some space free to stamp that build out several more times to make enough

e.g. https://u4.satisfactorytools.com/production?share=xDYCmgtrQThDdpMRYH6z

I like multiples of 8, so that gives me 8x assemblers making RIPs + all the input to that all in multiples of 8 + enough surplus for building

default recipes obviously are kind of suck

[glacial hemlock]

Default recipes for some items are still better than their alternate counterparts

[quaint sage]

Oh some are yeah

[warm sphinx]

on the wiki site it says bolted plates and reinforce plates are resource inefficient, however, doing the math, isnt it more efficient? the screws i can use the altarnate recipe: cast scews (5 ingots for 20 screws , removing the need for iron rods) and for the reinforced plates i can use stiched iron plates (iron plates and wires, if i take bolted i need screws on 2 places making it inefficient)

[quick pawn]

inefficient to what resource though, since you now have to use copper

[wind spade]

bolted are terrible, stitched are best

[fierce ruin]

bolted iron plate cost more ressource than the standard recipies, but use less machines (and less energy)

[bleak coral]

Stitched are efficient with iron wire

[fierce ruin]

and stiched iron best are clearly good

[bleak coral]

Look at the iron ore amounts, not the intermediaries

[wind spade]

well pretty much the same amount of energy

[quick pawn]

also, what are you on about needing screws in 2 different places?

[warm sphinx]

what i ent is, if i use 2 altarnate recipes that needs screws in both places, i make less efficient use of it i think

[quick pawn]

why would you use 2 different alts?

[bleak coral]

Are you talking about bolted frame? You said plates not frame

[wind spade]

yeah this is like worst reinforced plate recipe

[warm sphinx]

my end result would be to see what would work well together as alternate recipes

[quick pawn]

just calculate everything as the ore value, like it's most simplest form and then it'll be easy

[wind spade]

something like this

[warm sphinx]

um, can anyone tell me why iron wires are good to? i am bad at this calculation it seems

[bleak coral]

Cause it replaces copper with iron which is much more common

[wind spade]

they use iron which is way more common than copper

[warm sphinx]

ah

[bleak coral]

And then you can make stitched with just iron

[warm sphinx]

i thought that iron and copper was the same amout

[wind spade]

tho you can do stitched with copper wire as well

[warm sphinx]

so you can use copper to other products

[wind spade]

here are map limits

[warm sphinx]

link?

[wind spade]

it's from my tool

https://u4.satisfactorytools.com/

[warm sphinx]

you created it?

[quick pawn]

it does say on the normal wiki page too I believe

[warm sphinx]

and and others

[quaint sage]

Yeah you wanna listen to what greeny says on this one, (he?) wrote one of the about two production optimisers people use

[wind spade]

yeah

[warm sphinx]

nice

i assue js + html + css?

[wind spade]

was too lazy to find it 🤷

[warm sphinx]

xD

[wind spade]

php for API, html + sass + typescript + angularjs

[warm sphinx]

im only familiar with html

[quick pawn]

you poor bastard

[warm sphinx]

ya

[quaint sage]

https://perfectmotherfuckingwebsite.com/

As long as you don't want it to do anything

[warm sphinx]

what webhosting you used?

a paid one or a free one?

[quaint sage]

That's not mine, but I'm familiar with Azure

Although App Service is pretty much IIS in the cloud

[tiny sable]

How many radio control units should I make? I just finished basic aluminium and gotta make them for drones which are holding me back from other tiers.

I also have the Radio Control System alternate

[deft lichen]

I made 10/min with the default recipe

using crystal computers and the oscillator alt

it depends what alts are you going to use next

for example "OC supercomputer" is great and simple but requires a hefty amount of RCU if you want a hefty amount of SC

[upper jasper]

haha phrasing

[wind spade]

?

[quick pawn]

I believe he speaks of your sexual organ

[simple hawk]

Greeny, are you planning on adding nuclear waste as an output of nuclear reactors?

[quick pawn]

why is it not already D:

[wind spade]

nuclear reactors aren't in the tool even 🤷

[quick pawn]

whyyyy...?

[simple hawk]

If you added them it would help for calculating plutonium waste

[wind spade]

because they are not recipes 🤷

[quick pawn]

but they have inputs and outputs (all be it one of each) so it can't be hard to add right? I've not used them yet but it sounds like you give them x/m and they output y/m waste

[wind spade]

data collection is automatic

[quick pawn]

well why not add a way to manually add certain things too? Then each update just add the odd 1 or so thing that isn't a recipe

[wind spade]

because I'd have to check manually every update if they work the same or if ratios changed

[sacred pilot]

Yeah why don’t you just do a bunch more work in your leisure time for free? Jerk. 💖

[wind spade]

they will be added when support for power and for power generators will be added, which is not easy task 🤷

[quick pawn]

wdym but support for power? like the main wiki needs to be changed or just support in your calculator?

[wind spade]

support in my tool for power producing buildings

[quick pawn]

oh fair enough

[wind spade]

and for proper power itself

[quick pawn]

I swear your tool already states the amount of machines (and which machines) are to be used at each step? So isn't adding power just the same as using the same code for the input/output of other machines, and also taking the amounts and multiplying them by the amount of power they use? And I'm guessing some other stuff to do with power shards of course

also to be clear, was never calling you a jerk, I actually do find this stuff interesting

[wind spade]

no, some recipes use different amounts of power, also max power vs average power, also being able to produce power

[quick pawn]

some recipes use different amounts of power??

[wind spade]

yeah, particle accelerator

[quick pawn]

ah yeah that's back to me not having used nuclear yet

[sacred pilot]

I'm not sure what the gameplay incentive is for the particle accelerator power usage. is it just to encourage the use of battery banks?

Now that I think about it that's exactly what I did with it for awhile till I got time to add power... for some reason my batteries didn't complain - they usually do when you off-on-off-on them all the time

[wind spade]

even the "each recipe has different power consumption" is already a fun addition

[sacred pilot]

that one makes sense, I was just thinking harder about it - for all intents and purposes you really need to build your power grid to handle peak load

but I guess with a lot of batteries that's not quite true. still, by the time you're that late game that seems less interesting. it's easy to add a lot of power by then

[wind spade]

I think it's just to mess with all the people that want flat power consumption

wouldn't be surprised

[sacred pilot]

I'm definitely triggered by it 😄

[quick pawn]

it's clearly more immersive

[sacred pilot]

I agree. But all their other decisions force you to make interesting choices, and this one... eh, not really. It's fine, just wish it was forcing me to deal with more 😄

[warm sphinx]

how do i use an alternate recipe in the satisfactorytools one?

[oblique hollow]

you select them under recipes

[warm sphinx]

and then?

[oblique hollow]

then it uses them

[wind spade]

it uses it if it's better than original recipe

[oblique hollow]

if they are more efficient

[wind spade]

if you still want to use it, disable the original recipe

[warm sphinx]

oh i forgot to use the iron wire thing lol

[oblique hollow]

if you disable normal wire recipe, it will be forced to use iron wire, if you enabled that

[warm sphinx]

ok, and how do i change the production of the iron wire inside of it?

like, i produce at rounded 90 wires/m

now i need to check how many constructors i can feed with it

[oblique hollow]

how many constructors you can feed with 90 wire?

to make cable i guess?

[warm sphinx]

no

stitched iron plate'

[oblique hollow]

select stitched iron plate as a recipe

[warm sphinx]

should i just never underclock my factory at all?

[oblique hollow]

if you have a certain input: do this and then select "maximize" for the reinforced iron plates

[oblique hollow]

avoid overclock, actually. underclocking is good

hmmm, actually..... greeny's tool isnt that great for checking
"I got this much of this item, how much can i make"

guess you just need to look up the recipe in the wiki

the only thing it can do is "i want this many items, how much do i need for that?"

but it doesnt work for "i have this many items, how much can i make with this"

[wind spade]

why not?

[oblique hollow]

because you have to do so much janky stuff to get it to work

like, how would you check how many RIPs you can make with 90 iron wire?

[wind spade]

0

[oblique hollow]

because what i had in mind didnt work

it just cant do that kind of work

it cant magically give me an output where it generates extra normal iron plates to be equal to whats needed for stitched RIPs

[warm sphinx]

indeed, and that was what i was searching for

[oblique hollow]

guess that doesnt exist

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[wind spade]

if you input wire and set maximise, it does that, doesn't it?

[oblique hollow]

no cause it will just generate new wires

and use up all the ore

[wind spade]

disable wire recipe

[oblique hollow]

its still complicated for others

first you have to calculate "i can make x wires"
then you have to disable every wire recipe and input X wires as your item input and then maximise RIPS

[wind spade]

🤷 it's wrong mindset anyway

[oblique hollow]

try doing it the other way then: input how many Reinforced Plates you want to produce

and it will tell you how much iron wire and how many plates you need

[warm sphinx]

thats the thing, i want to know that but i will only produce 50 wires a min, now im not going to over clock or underclock it, so i need 4.8 constructors to build all so that will be 5

[oblique hollow]

why

thats useless

just produe how much wire you need for X Reinforced Plates

not the other way around

machines that are underclocked are not less efficient

and are not harder to feed

[stray snow]

what is the fastest time anyone beat satisfactory

[rapid pendant]

look on speedrun.com

[wind spade]

satisfactory cannot be "beaten" tho

but there are some nice speedruns for space elevator package 1 or 2

[warm sphinx]

why does it feel like i have OCD when i make my factory with wires and all

isnt it pretty?

[oblique hollow]

your HUD looks funny..... so weirdly dark

[warm sphinx]

maybe i did set it up like that

by my factory looks ugly doesnt it?

[oblique hollow]

its certainly not the worst. you will unlock more decorative walls and foundations later on in the shop

[warm sphinx]

ya i cheated that

[deft lichen]

there's a HUD opacity setting

[warm sphinx]

alot better

@quick pawn like this?

[oblique hollow]

that also looks ok, but less is more.

use less pillars

[quick pawn]

basically yeah, without that rouge wall and maybe less pillars

[warm sphinx]

im so not goo with cosmetics

[quick pawn]

basic rule of thumb for building in any game, depth is everything, if you can add depth to it, you're in