#math-and-meta

1 messages · Page 529 of 1

oblique hollow
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ive been searching and none of the results show that gold naturally takes a cubic shape, even though its atomic latice structure is cubic face-centered

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in fact, it rather seems to take an octahedral shape, or trapezohedral

gilded maple
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I’ve made a steel factory that’s producing 8960 ingots, I have a lot of other resources gathered to a point in the area but no development on it, no oil, what’s something late game that will require a large amount of steel?

iron prairie
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  1. Work backwards from desired products: making loads of ingots is a bit pointless before you know what to do with them.
  2. HMFs and motors are the most complex things I can think of which can be done on just iron, coal and copper.
bleak coral
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HMFs in particular will chew up steel/iron

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And they're needed for the new frame thing whose name I always forget

supple mural
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fused frame

sand garnet
supple mural
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my short research has also determined that irl gold does not often appear in cubes

gilded maple
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I kind of just gathered all the normal and pure iron from the desert and just made a steel factory

bleak coral
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It'd be funny if all our machines just rearrange atoms, but they're run by an AI that works off of surface level logic

supple mural
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i think thats how all machines work

bleak coral
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Like ingots need to be made in smelters, I just got something that looks like gold, I'm in a smelter here's "caterium" ingots, which is not-gold

oblique hollow
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take iron, paint it golden
smelter: "yup, thats caterium all right"

iron prairie
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Still more plausible than "gold-like element"!

gilded maple
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I’m not a miner, but I’ve worked with gold in electronics and I would doubt you can find that in its natural shape often. Imagine one of those bendable metal spoons that could bend like that while taking little effort from a couple fingers, gold is way too soft to stay in that form.

iron prairie
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Anywho, for the HMFs:
With default recipes, 2 HMFs/min costs 495 iron ore, 205 coal and 150 limestone.

With my preferred alts, 2.8125 HMFs/min costs 205 iron, 107 coal and 101 limestone.

Used alts in rough order of importance: solid steel ingots, heavy encased frames, stitched iron plates, encased industrial pipes, wet concrete, iron wire and steel rods.

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So, even a modest number of HMFs/min can easily chew through a decent chunk of your bounty of steel.

bleak coral
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And that's the most resource efficient version, minus some bonus from pure iron ingots.

You can always go for like steeled frame to reduce complexity in exchange for some extra steel usage.

iron prairie
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To be fair, there are some alts like steel coated plate which can drop the cost even further, at the cost of more complicated supply chains.

I'd also argue that pure iron should be a last resort: there's so much iron ore out there that the power/space/complexity costs of pure iron are rarely worth it.

It might be interesting, to check the relative oil costs of pure iron -> normal iron plate vs. normal iron -> solid steel -> steel coated plate.

bleak coral
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Reason I used pure iron for my HMFs was:

  1. I thougt it'd be fun to have a refinery basement for pure recipes
  2. didn't want to go get more iron nodes
nova yew
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hey guys, how much Nuclearfuel does a powerplant consum ? no plutonium

bleak coral
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Though I'm not certain I actually would've needed to get more nodes, but it was close if I did smelters. So I guess mostly for fun lol

bleak coral
nova yew
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Thx

iron prairie
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Convenience is a fair reason to do pure ingots.

bleak coral
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For context, the location is above that huge bay in the north, so water is right there.

iron prairie
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That... is exactly where I plunked down my most recent megafactory.

bleak coral
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It's a good spot

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Doing HMFs, and I'll probably fit at least one other thing there. I ended up with more room than initially intended.

iron prairie
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Anywho, did a bit of mathing. Assuming use of solid steel ingots, 100 iron plates costs:

Steel Coated Plate: 11.11 iron and 223 MW (both in direct costs, and in consuming 11.11 coal + 3.7 crude oil).
Pure Iron -> Normal Plates: 80.77 iron and 89.231 MW
Pure Iron -> Steel Coated Plate: 5.98 iron and 227 MW

Each coal is assumed to cost 4.5 MW, and each oil 30 MW```
frosty owl
iron prairie
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The direct processing costs would be 2.14, 3.23, and 2.28 crude oil/min.

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Personally, to keep the numbers sane, if I'm doing pure iron, I'd mix in a few smelters just to get an integer number of iron ingots out. A pure iron node can be done with 22 refineries and a 1/3-clocked smelter to get 1440 ingots rather than 1448.571 ingots.

frosty owl
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That's what I mean by "Smelt that" 😆 (as opposed to "pure it")

bleak coral
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I'm fine with decimals, don't mind the messy numbers. I got 4 decimals in clockspeeds and I'm gonna use them 😛

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Side note: but I just realized recently that precise split programmable splitters would also be boon for manifolds. They would eliminate warmup time.

muted crypt
bleak coral
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Hell yeah

supple mural
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can do ya one better

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"refine it!"

vast jungle
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The real question is "does it blend"... 😉

iron prairie
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With a bit of pre-processing, yes! Nitric acid uses iron plates, and FMFs use HMFs.

vast jungle
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And Diluted Fuel

bleak coral
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blender sandwich: diluted fuel | iron plates | nitric acid

pallid turtle
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Which Aluminium recipe is better, the original one or the pure aluminium ingot?

iron prairie
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Most of the time, pure aluminum. The default recipe is very, very quartz-hungry.

pallid turtle
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thats true, thanks

bleak coral
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I like to think of the normal one as a multiplier: you can always inject as much quartz as you're willing to get more ingots. Pure lets you decide how much quartz you're willing to commit.

frosty owl
bleak coral
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balancer, but it looks like a manifold rolljace

frosty owl
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But it's still a a balancer rreeeeeevildoggo

barren quartz
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Setting up an aluminum ingot area to use all bauxite possible and a bit worried about throughput, think it was Lund’s that i saw that was modular but ive never load balanced anything of that magnitude on top of dealing with trains. Anyone have any tips and tricks?

bleak coral
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is a manifold that uses mk1 belts for a machine that needs 60/min exactly a balacner?

frosty owl
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I think of it as a "balanced manifold" tbh, but don't like that name jacelul

bleak coral
muted crypt
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isn't a manifold system already fairly fast if you use priority splitters instead of normal splitters

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you fill up one machine at a time at a much faster rate

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I'm curious which would actually kick into 100% faster 🤔

barren quartz
bleak coral
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smart splitters with overflow can help, hurt, or do nothing to the warmup time depending on the nature of the last two machines

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it's still total space to fill / total input rate, it can just change depending on if the last two machines are the same clockspeed, different, and how they're different

frosty owl
muted crypt
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😅

bleak coral
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yeah any system that reduces the amount of space that needs to be filled is faster

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that's why a smart splitter on the end of a manifold can actually hurt the warmup time: if the last two machines are the same clockspeed then neither needed to be filled up and using an overflow splitter forces one of them to be filled up first

deep root
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If I plan to use a smart splitter at the end/beginning of a manifold (normal splitters into machines) which location would be the "most efficient"?

mystic moon
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The beginning is my preference.

deep root
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Trying to move overflow to another area or sink it for points...Either one

mystic moon
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That way, you just set whichever output isn't going into the manifold to overflow.

bleak coral
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it's the same, so whatever is convenient for your layout

mystic moon
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Yup

deep root
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Thanks 🙂 I've done it both ways just wondered if there was a "more efficient"

frosty owl
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Though I'm too lazy to find a good way to word why 😅

deep root
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Machines can fill without waiting for products

bleak coral
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could just make more sense to you to branch production off a main line, rather than continue the line through different productions

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technically you only need the the overflow splitter right before the sink, everything else can just be one giant manifold with normal splitters

iron prairie
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If there's a storage involved (e.g. building rotors and sending only some off to make motors), the smart splitter should be before that, however.

deep root
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Yeah I don't smart split into machines...Unless it's something like HMF where I can put its 4 input products on 1 belt and smart split each into the manufacturers

bleak coral
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still not a fan of that myself, even though I know it's safe if you put a sink on the end to keep things from clogging

frosty owl
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Sushi belt go brrr

deep root
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Yeah sink at the end 🙂

frosty owl
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Smart storage for the win rolljace

deep root
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Actually did that in a setup with a friend. We did foundries for copper/iron on the same belt and just smart split the overflow into a sink at the end so all machines got exactly what they needed 🙂

frosty owl
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I love how you can just eyeball how you can change production based on what you see gojng to the sink (Eg: copper ingots sinking? Space for some more copper sheets machines!)

bleak coral
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thanks I hate it! jace_smile

deep root
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I love how a modder created a statistics mod 🙂

gusty nexus
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yeah, got recycled rubber to go with all the other good oil alts

upbeat tide
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And for the petro, you need

Impure - 120
Normal - 240
Pure - 312

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If you lower pure to 750 than its an even 300 petro

barren quartz
upbeat tide
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Yup thats what I am doing

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Just remember not to mix up your train cars 🙂 aka make sure the node that feeds those specific freight cars gets to its output station right, and belted out accordingly

barren quartz
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Beacon labelling became essential very quickly, i love math but that amount of random numbers turns into gibberish real quick hahaha

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Appreciate the foresight though, gunna be a long project

upbeat tide
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Not really random numbers, just making sure your not crossing supply paths

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This is a visual example of one “slice”. This is a normal node worth of machinery

image0.jpg
barren quartz
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Actually because of using all including impure, think its easier to try combining them for a 600u/min? Or keep it simple at individual 300/min baux inputs and deal with them individually

upbeat tide
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Yea combine impures. But its not always possible. I think their is an odd number of impures

barren quartz
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Yeah 5/6/6 so I’ll have a cute lil setup for the last one, thisll be the first big setup since u3 of like 180 oscillators/min

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Color coordination on point there

upbeat tide
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Yea you can see my cute little impure line

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Its the third slice in

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The little slice came in handy tho. Combined with the pure lines to form one belt at 660 ingots

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Currently 5 belts of ingots there. 4 at 600, one at 660

barren quartz
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That setups near mid-map east-ish cluster of the 4 nodes? In hindsight east desert was a terrible idea

upbeat tide
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Yup

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Directly south of those 4 nodes and east of the 5 ish not too far away

royal eagle
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Where is someone going to get 9780 Bauxite ?

cedar mica
rain veldt
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hello friends! can someone inform me wich aluminium recipy is most boxite efficienty? Thank you in advance 😄

bleak coral
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sloppy aluminum -> electrode aluminum scrap

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use pure ingots or regular ingots depending on how much quartz you're willing to spend on it

rain veldt
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thank you friend

barren quartz
honest tree
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2 + 2 = fish

gusty nexus
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which one?

unknown.png
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i know quickwire cable is trash, and i have the other two variations of turbo fuel (which are apparently better)

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i guess electrode circuit board? it has an upside of only needing oil (if you can call that an upside lol)

loud heron
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Turbo Heavy Fuel is nice if you want a quick and dirty fuel system

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for when you need that early fuel gen power

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Later on youll use a much more efficient recipe chain, but for starting out its not that bad

gusty nexus
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well i have two nuclear plants and already did a turbo blend fuel setup that feeds 160 generators

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so...lol?

loud heron
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Then its basically whatever you want haha

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All of em kinda suck

bleak coral
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I keep thinking maybe electrode circuit is maybe worth a look again. Oil isn't that much in demand nor scarce.

loud heron
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Its a possibility yeah

gusty nexus
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i'm gonna check my other saves to see if i have an option to savescum lol

loud heron
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Im currently saturating my rubber demand so I dont got time for electrode circuit boards

bleak coral
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And the other recipes call to use quartz and caterium. But I guess where else are you gonna use caterium?

gusty nexus
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yeah, caterium you wind up only really needing for maybe 3-5 computer-related things

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maybe maintain a small reservoir for power poles

loud heron
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Is caterium really that unneeded?

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Im currently saturated on making computers with a single caterium normal node

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and theres a caterium pure nearby

bleak coral
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It's used in a lot of alts, and there's a lot of alts that eliminate it's use. So.... it's complicated?

loud heron
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lol

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If anything Id love some alts that remove sulfur

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While maintaining efficiency

bleak coral
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It's rare, and most of the recipes that do use it are nice. I guess it's just deciding where it's most useful.

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AI limiters are the only thing I believe that requires it, cause it has no alts.

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oh and high-speed connectors

gusty nexus
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yeah, AI limiters (and the EM rods that require them) are the only things I recall that can only take caterium

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yeah and those

loud heron
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Which I think only realistically need like

bleak coral
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oh and it's used in infused uranium cell, which is really good to make the most of uranium

loud heron
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2 caterium nodes at best

bleak coral
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oh and there is 8 normal and 8 pure, it's not nearly as rare as I thought it was

loud heron
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Theres a pure and a normal in Dunes

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Both Pure Sulfur nodes are also in Dunes

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Its like the Dunes is the easist

bleak coral
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I feel like we're gonna get more sulfur nodes. It feels weird to have so little sulfur. Though I guess there isn't much to do with it either.

loud heron
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Realistically the only things you need to use it on constantly is Rifle Ammo

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and even then a few stacks of it get you pretty far around

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Other than I guess Nuclear

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I think you slowly move off Turbofuel to go Nuclear dont you?

bleak coral
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Idk, I guess you could. I'm still on turbo

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Nuclear definitely needs it though

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Like extensively

loud heron
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Yep

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So maybe its rarity is just scaled back to be used partially for oil and primarily for nukes

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Anyone whos a psychopath know how much theoretical power we could make off of the world's maximum sulfur?

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Definitely a meta question haha

bleak coral
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Max nuke + max turbo with leftover sulphur. Could do it in a calculator pretty easy. Assuming we have max nuke right. Last I heard it doesn't involve fertile uranium though.

frosty owl
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Bruh... Imagine fiddling with max production plans on greeny's and meeting those old friends you definetly didn't think you'd see there: Coke Steel and Steel Coated Plates jacelul

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I guess we really have that much oil...

bleak coral
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Oil has always been a bit overvalued, and now we have 70% more of it compared to the beginning of U3

frosty owl
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Yeah, but I wouldn't have thought the planner would suggest using it on STEEL out of all the things 😆

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Btw, even with very big space elevator parts production+nuclear materials, there is still enough wiggle room to make use of steel screws and bolted plates/frames why_so_snutt

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I'm talking 120-120-40-40 parts min for each space elevator part (120 for the ones you need 5k of and 40 for the other 2)

bleak coral
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You do you buddy haha

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I still think bolted frames are bad

frosty owl
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How so?

bleak coral
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They're just inefficient enough that you don't actually save power or space by using them over the default recipe. Despite their speed. Checking numbers now.

fathom fractal
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hey guys I got 840 a min in iron ingots should i divide them into two mk4 lines with mk5 leading up to them or just one single mk5

frosty owl
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I mean, they have to be used with steel screws to really shine, though 😆

fathom fractal
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for it all

frosty owl
bleak coral
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yeah that's what I'm comparing: steel screw + bolted vs steel rod + regular

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and, hmmmm it's close

fathom fractal
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so a mk5 leading to a splitter with two mk4?

bleak coral
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close enough I'm just gonna shrug and say fuck it

frosty owl
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Share link?

frosty owl
fathom fractal
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i wont be able to based on base design

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but a little backup wont matter as much right ?

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like 60 per min backup

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with programmable splliter cant i send that to sink

frosty owl
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If it backs up, you can't expect to deal with the overflow AFTER the choking point, you need to have an overflow exit before that

fathom fractal
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true

bleak coral
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hmmm in the end I do think bolted does come out on top, coulda swore it was more machines, maybe it was bolted plates that was more....

frosty owl
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Mhh, I'm pretty sure bolted plates still reduce machine count 😅 😆

bleak coral
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When I'm comparing them should I include oil or not? I feel like I shouldn't, most people wouldn't use it.

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It's the steel coated plates thing.

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huh wait, greeny's now chooses adhered plates as most resource efficient, damn all these oil alts were just waiting for there to be more oil to come to life

frosty owl
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Eh, just use oil, it's worth it

vast jungle
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The oil alts are very efficient but complicated 😉

frosty owl
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But to compare, I think you can rule it out. Makes things easier

vast jungle
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I was very close to use it for iron plates... the only reason I did not was that I had no plastic in the factory, so I would have to add another train station ^^

loud heron
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I know above and to the west of the dunes

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is a GIANT oil field

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with like 2 pures, a cluster of normals, and a handful of impures.
More than enough for like every possible oil related needs

frosty owl
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Funfact: if you push space elevator parts production to the limits, the planner turns all iron used in the plan either into steel or the cursed iron wire hehe

bleak coral
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I'm gonna include oil, because I want you to see adhered too. It's... interesting. For like a couple drops of oil it just absolutely plumets the need iron. I guess iron's so common that's not really exciting, but it's kinda wild how much it plumets it.

frosty owl
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I mean... I see the appeal in having to make less plates but... Really? Save on iron? why_so_snutt

bleak coral
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It's going from like 20-30 to 6 iron compared to the others. But yeah it's still iron

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I've stopped caring about the bolted vs. not-bolted now, the adhered has my attention

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I think adhered is actually smallest footprint, but not least power. Cause of the more power hungry machines

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and probably not smaller than just not using oil

frosty owl
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It's a pretty insane reduction... But imma stick to the fastest and more compact bolted :P
Memes aside, I think that's the most FPS-friendly solution, which is a big appeal to me

vast jungle
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I don't like Adh. Plate because its damned slow production... 3.75/min ?

bleak coral
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meh, it completely eliminates constructors if you do steeled plate, which you've already got oil so why not?

frosty owl
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That's quite the chunk of rubber though. 1 for each reinf plate

vast jungle
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that reminds me I have to build a new rubber/plastic factory... sigh

bleak coral
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If you take away oil, stitched has less machines and power than bolted btw

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oh wait, fuck I forgot to turn on steel screw

frosty owl
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Yep... 😆
That ups the constructors count a lot

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Though, I can see the appeal of adhered, considering the skipped steps thanks to no screws MK1 or 2 ^^

bleak coral
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alright I'm remembering this now, yeah the math that convinced me of this wasn't using steel screws

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so yeah if you don't have steel screws, bolted sucks

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but with steel screws it works

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interestingly it does lose if for some reason you're using pure iron ingots for both stitched and bolted, but who uses pure recipes with bolted? like if you wanna save space/power/uobject count I'd assume you just use smelters.

frosty owl
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Tries to look innocent

bleak coral
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loses power-wise that is

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space/machine count still goes to bolted

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I'm pretty sure, I'm always just eyeballing space

frosty owl
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I mean, if you go massive scale, you're gonna need more than half the iron of the whole map even using the pure recipe, so smelters are surely a no 😅
And since copper can be finished easily, foundries are a no too

bleak coral
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iron alloy is stupid, and I don't think you can make it good

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you'd have to have some weird, OP numbers to convince me that spending copper to get more iron is a good trade

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I'd assume that's the reaction of most people in fact: "why would I trade copper for more iron?"

frosty owl
bleak coral
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you like nice ratios huh?

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I always forget that's also a thing, and forget to consider it for why a recipe might be good.

frosty owl
frosty owl
# bleak coral you like nice ratios huh?

I sure love them, rather than making spaghetti monstrosities ahahah
But my point is that no other recipe uses that little machines to "consume" the output of a single steel coated assembler (thus having bigger footprint)

bleak coral
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I'd actually love to see a whole line of HMFs or something that tries to keep everything from 3:1 to 1:3 so it all goes machine to machine with no long belts, balancers, or manifolds. It'd look cool and definitely very different.

loud heron
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oh yeah

frosty owl
loud heron
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while im here in math and meta, what is the max theoretical uninterrupted throughput of a freight train?

bleak coral
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infinite

frosty owl
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780x2

bleak coral
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you can just keep adding cars

loud heron
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True

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But I meant just one box

bleak coral
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oh, <780x2

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can't ever =780x2 cause you need to be able to empty into a buffer to compensate for pauses

loud heron
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Well I mean like obviously you can send stuff in and out of a freight station using max speed conveyers

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But how many items can one train unload?
Theres gotta be a maximum to how quickly a train station buffer can unload before trains literally cannot refill the box fast enough no matter how close the other station is

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oh nevermind, my bad

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Its on the wiki

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(x amount of stacks * number of freight cars) / Duration of round trip

bleak coral
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there's some practical limitations on how fast you can get a train to go, so yeah there's that problem

frosty owl
bleak coral
loud heron
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so 32 stacks times 3 freight cars on a 5 minute loop is about 960

bleak coral
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so for a stack size 50 item, it'd be probably impossible to actually get a train going fast enough to deliver two belts worth

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but you could easily do it for a stack size 500 like concrete

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it just needs to be under 15 minutes

loud heron
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They really should update the train stations with some diagonistics

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like the round time calculation of your track

bleak coral
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trains are definitely getting an overhaul, they're in a "it works" state right now

frosty owl
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Soon™️

loud heron
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They work pretty good even where they are now

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at least, no problem here for me

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Just wish they gave more info

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The only thing they really need to fix imo is just the freight platforms pausing belt activity during loading/unloading

bleak coral
loud heron
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btw, does the fluid freight platform force itself empty?

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or will it backfill

frosty owl
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The bad part about that design, imo, is the need to OC the bolted frames to 200% (otherwise it's 2:1 with the plates) :/

loud heron
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Im not exactly sure how fluid buffers work

bleak coral
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it's one way, there are two outputs and two inputs so they can only flow one direction

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like machines

frosty owl
loud heron
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So if I put a fluid buffer against it, the station will empty themselves to fill it up

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rather than the fluid buffer backfilling the station if its full

bleak coral
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yeah, might need a pump to get it to reach the top of the buffer depending on how you set it up though

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they've only got 10m headlift

loud heron
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Thats fair, just was concerned

frosty owl
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Big buffers need big pumps

loud heron
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Do they?

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Buffers need a headlift minimum?

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I have no idea how the pipe system works

frosty owl
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I'm just saying, a small one is enough
But a train station may not provide enough headlift alone, like Lund mentioned

bleak coral
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yeah you need enough headlift to reach the top of the buffer, otherwise they'll only fill up to the headlift you've got

frosty owl
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Eg: a small buffer can be filled up by a station on the same level, a big one may be filled only up to 4/5

loud heron
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Ah

bleak coral
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and you need two big buffers or 6 small buffers for a fluid station

loud heron
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I could always lower the fluid buffer

bleak coral
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honestly I think two rows of 3 small buffers stacked on eachother might look nicer and line up better than 2 big buffers

loud heron
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Yeah this is some fucked up math to figure out throughput haha

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I wanna make sure im delivering enough compacted coal to my fuel gen facility

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And I dont wanna send long ass conveyers

frosty owl
bleak coral
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you can transport more concrete than you can iron plates for example

frosty owl
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Or just stay below the limit for 100 stack items and don't bother with math xD

loud heron
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So a round trip is technically:
Travel time + unloading/loading time, isnt it

bleak coral
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yes

loud heron
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And I believe when stuff is loaded and unloaded, it dumps all stacks into the station at once

bleak coral
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though more accurately travel time + unloading + loading

loud heron
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which THEN zip out right?

bleak coral
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yeah, and the station stops moving stuff during the load/unload time, so you need buffers to keep item movement continuous and not stop stuff up

loud heron
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Well lets think...
True round time will be:
Station 1 un/load + travel time + Station 2 un/load + travel back

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For an end to end train anyways

bleak coral
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yeah

loud heron
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Well...realistically

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The train will dump its contents and leave asap

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But I guess un/load can factor in the time it takes to go from empty to full or vice versa

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from belt activity

bleak coral
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unload/load takes about 25 seconds for the train

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it's a set animation whose time doesn't change cause it just dumps as much as it can

loud heron
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Yep

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Honestly?

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Id rather they change the freight and fluid platforms to function bidirectionally.

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While its unloading, you can load it in with something else simultaneously

#

Reuse freight cars

#

that way you dont have to use 2 freight cars to pick up one item type while sending back another

bleak coral
#

that doesn't really work, cause it's got one inventory so the input/output items would be competing for space

loud heron
#

I guess you can technically make 2 Train stations at each side that do load and unload on the same freight car

#

Station 1 unloads content, goes to station 2 to refill the same car, goes to station 4 to unload, then station 3 to refill

#

Via time table

bleak coral
#

this is way more space than just adding another car lol

loud heron
#

I think trains ignore train stations in its path that isnt on its time table is it

loud heron
bleak coral
#

max speed doesn't change, only slight change to acceleration

#

can be overcome with more locomotives, as long as you keep it 3:1 or 4:1 cars:engines you're fine

#

even on hills

loud heron
#

Im guessing each train multiplies its power usage.

#

...Does an end to end train use 1 engines power or both

bleak coral
#

both

loud heron
#

Ah

bleak coral
#

direction doesn't matter for power, only for pulling into stations

#

you an make some stupid looking, but perfectly functional, trains

#

they don't even need to be on the ends

loud heron
#

I also think trains only use lots of power to speed up, but sip power when they cruise

bleak coral
#

yup

loud heron
#

Battery can easily buffer that

bleak coral
#

This works perfectly fine as a back-and-forth train and should go up any hills:

<--><--------<----->
< = engine
- = freight
#

trains can look very silly

loud heron
#

Why not chain engines togethr at each ends?

bleak coral
#

you don't need to, they can literally go anywhere, only the first and last ones need to be facing opposite directions

#

and maybe be at the ends, but I don't actually think they need to be at the ends at all as long as you place all the platforms right

#

was just demonstrating that position inside the train doesn't matter, and only the first and last ones directions matter

loud heron
#

Theres also an extra engien in that diagram lol

bleak coral
#

I did 3:1, there's 15 freight and 5 engines

loud heron
#

Wouldnt it be slower in one direction

bleak coral
#

nope

loud heron
#

How does that work lol

#

Train logic

bleak coral
#

it just does, power is equal both directions

#

only stations care about direction

loud heron
#

Very strange haha

#

Trains could use a lot of interesting changes

bleak coral
#

we know for sure we're getting collisions and signalling, so they don't just ghost past eachother

#

beyond that, who knows

loud heron
#

Trains currently dont collide do they

bleak coral
#

nope

loud heron
#

What happens again if they meet the same station?

bleak coral
#

they wait on eachother, which increases their round trip time

loud heron
#

So if identical trains carrying identical freight arrive at the same time, does the freight station only take one of them?

#

And the other train just sits there until the first one leaves?

bleak coral
#

one, then the other after the other is done

#

if the freight platform is full it'll just take as much as it can and put back the rest

#

it's best to just not have stations service more than one train

loud heron
#

Yeah I wondered that, how do the stations handle overstock?

#

Do they grab the box, shove it in, and the freight car magically spawns another box?

bleak coral
#

it pulls it back out and puts it back

loud heron
#

Or does it do a 50 second loop

bleak coral
#

might be a longer animation in fact, haven't timed it

loud heron
#

Is it not just the un/load anims back to back?

bleak coral
#

I don't know, I'd have to test

loud heron
#

I see.

bleak coral
#

I'm not sure I've even watched it myself

loud heron
#

Fair enough

#

I actually hope they let us overclock trains

#

Just REALLY let em SPEED, Shinkansen style

bleak coral
#

bullet train, but literal

loud heron
#

Oh, maybe add a passenger car just for funsies

#

so clients and hosts can ride together without horrible fuckery

frosty owl
#

So... Why have I not heard someone mentioning how you can actually use silica to maximize allu production and still have a massive end-game production? thinking_helmet

loud heron
#

Ive never made aluminum before lol

waxen shore
#

quick question: conventional splitters split a line in an "even" manner, right? If there's 300x coming it's gonna split 100 to each side, even if the machine there doesn't use 100x.
So how does smart splitters solve that? I didn't quite understand how overflow works

bleak coral
#

ah I just tested it, and yeah you have to have 1 engine on each side of the train, you can't "push" a car into a station 😦

loud heron
#

When you Select a Smart/Programmable Splitter, you can choose what item goes out which end

#

This can also be set to block/overflow/or whatever rule

topaz hedge
loud heron
#

You want Plates to go out the front, rods to the left, and overflow the right? done and done

#

If for some reason say...a copper wire came in? would go to the right

bleak coral
loud heron
bleak coral
#

we talk about parts per minute numbers cause they're convenient, but they're averages of items physically moving through a system

waxen shore
#

oh, i see. Thank you very much 😄

frosty owl
# waxen shore quick question: conventional splitters split a line in an "even" manner, right? ...

It's just like a normal splitter
But if you select "overflow", whatever doesn't fit the other outputs will go there
Eg: a 600/min belt feeds a 480 line. If you smart split it, you can feed the 48ò with a single mk4 belt and send the overflow on another. A normal splitter would divide in 300/300
Eg2: you have a belt with plates and rods on it. You smart split it to send plates on one side, rods to the other. If you leave the center for overflow X whenever the other 2 outputs back up or another item comes as input, it will be sent through the center

loud heron
#

A pretty late game idea is to use programmable splitters to sort a line thats full of just random ass parts.

#

And whatever isnt used, goes into an Awesome Sink

#

If so chosen

#

You can also fuck with ratios using different speed belts

#

via splitters

frosty owl
loud heron
#

Making 180 screw, and 2 machines need 60 and 120?
Use an MK1 belt and a MK2 belt

loud heron
frosty owl
#

... What?

loud heron
#

You say that you can use Silica to maximize aluminum production

#

Whats the original way of making aluminum?

frosty owl
#

That's referred to max allu production, end-game stuff (spoiler territory if you care abiu that)
All recipes can be checked out easily on Greeny's tool

loud heron
#

Ah i dont care for spoilers raelly

#

Just wanna hear your discovery :P

frosty owl
#

It's not really a "discovery"
All talks I heard so far about allu production favored the use of the pure allu recipe (allu scraps into allu ingots)
But the nornal recipe (which is also the most allu efficient) adds in silica to make the ingots with less scraps

#

The issue with the latter method is that it uses unholy amounts of silica, about 2/3 of the total amount you can make from the whole map, so we usually just avoid even consider using it...

topaz hedge
loud heron
#

That boi yes

#

Very hard to make for kinda minimal use if you prefer a more modular factory approach

topaz hedge
#

That boi is still sittin there after 1100 hours on this save, and can continue to stay.. right there in it's place lol

loud heron
#

If youre into a minimalist factory with maximum efficiency

#

those can be quite useful

frosty owl
#

Except that it still leaves enough silica to make nuclear (a must have) and all other components needed for end-game
So as long as one doesn't use silica for other alt recipes, one can easily max allu with silica and still have a massive end-game factory (silica can be avoided in many recipes)

loud heron
#

Interesting

#

I assume theres more than enough resources for the alt recipes that eliminate silica

frosty owl
#

Yep yep

topaz hedge
#

I wouldn't exactly call my factory "minimalist" >.> but being that there are no large wearhouses on this save with half the parts in the game.. or any kind of "recycle" bin don't really have a use for them

sacred fractal
#

to unlocc turbo fuel, is there any specific hard drive you have to yoink or is it just random?

frosty owl
#

The only processes were silica MUST be used are nuclear ones after all

topaz hedge
#

but silicone HSC D:

sacred fractal
#

Also I can't craft fabric

loud heron
topaz hedge
#

They are pulled randomly from a pool of all the recipes you have unlocked with research, or milestones up to that point.

frosty owl
# topaz hedge but silicone HSC D:

Surprisingly, there's enough quickwire to deal with those even without using silica (not for the connectors, NOR for the circuit boards)

loud heron
sacred fractal
#

rip

loud heron
loud heron
topaz hedge
sacred fractal
#

of I gotta research it

frosty owl
loud heron
#

Find a compromise between Silicone HSC and Nukes?

topaz hedge
#

Kinda a mix. nuke doesn't really need THAT much silica

loud heron
#

You shoudl probably saturate your HSC factory

#

then do nuclear, running Fuel Gens on the side maybe?

topaz hedge
#

once you build your first nuke setup you really never want to place another fuel gen lol.

loud heron
topaz hedge
#

I do think one quartz node with a mk3 miner, and a limestone node or two for cheap silica will completely suffice for power needs.

#

Definitly not going to use that oil for fuel gens.. placing hundreds of those is for the birds.

loud heron
#

realistically I think they just need to up the power gen for fuel gens

#

and have em suck alot more fuel

frosty owl
#

You don't really need THAT many HSC.
In the plan I made (see picture) you need little less than 250/min

Cattura.JPG
loud heron
#

Go from 6 Turbo fuel a min for 150MW to 60 Turbofuel for 1500MWW

topaz hedge
#

Nothing really against fuel gen setups, I do enjoy building them, sometimes. but when I can spend half the time building and end up with so much more power

#

hahahaha 40 pasta a miunte.

frosty owl
loud heron
#

I guess thats true

frosty owl
loud heron
#

btw

topaz hedge
loud heron
#

Is there a way to "overflow" liquids

frosty owl
#

Ahahah, it's a plan to try using up all resources after all

topaz hedge
#

After building one factory that produces 20 pasta a miunte... I'm not sure I'd ever want to try for more, or build that beast again lol

frosty owl
# loud heron Is there a way to "overflow" liquids

Yes. There is a dedicated section in the wiki, but simply put: have a horizontal pipe, place a junction, from the junction have the pipe go up at least 2/4 meters. The pipe you just made is now an overflow pipe (you can bring it back down if you want)

#

Since bottom fills first, the higher pipe segment will be the last fluid will try to go into

frosty owl
topaz hedge
#

Speaking of, if you feel like tormenting your pc again ven, I can send you the save lol

#

Yeah it's done.

frosty owl
#

Yeah, I think I'll pass this time... hehe

#

I'm pretty sure my PC wouldn't be able to handle the increase in machines compared to the last time I tried :\

topaz hedge
#

But, just look at the beautiful screenshots of my powergraph I post like.. daily now, you know you want to lol

loud heron
#

Does the hologram depicting the headlift on the Pipe Pump hologram properly show how far it can push?

#

When it makes that ring that crawls down the pipe line

frosty owl
#

Yes. Though the moving ring usually disappears before it can reach the maximum height, you should be able to see the maximum headlift applied to a pipe when you try putting a pump on it (provided the previous pump has been powered)
Eg: place pump on the low side. Climb to the top of the pipe, try placing pump. You should see a ring indicating the maximum headlift from the previous pump and be able to snap the pump to it

loud heron
#

Ah gotcha

#

Might use a pump on an overflow pipe system is why I asked

frosty owl
#

Remember to place the overflow pipe in the highest point of the main pipe.

#

Either that, or place a pump on the main pipe right after the junction (that way, the fluid will still treat the junction as "overflow" and climb any vertical rise after the pump without trying to get into the overflow pipe)

loud heron
#

True

boreal wyvern
#

So random question, has someone already worked out some build plans for plutonium setups with the numbers worked out?

frosty owl
#

As in finding good ratios or what recipes save what resources...?

boreal wyvern
#

good ratios

#

and to an extent, which alternates are recommended

vast jungle
#

it depends on if you want to sink the plutonium or if you want to just burn it or if you want to max power...

boreal wyvern
#

initially, sink it, I might switch to burning it much later on when I actually need the power

vast jungle
#

the point is that if you want to sink it, you look for the cheapest way to make the Plutonium Rods... you don't care about how many you get, you optimize for "fewest resources per nuclear waste being removed"

when you want to produce power, you might decide to optimize for "resources per produced plutonium fuel rod" (which might be different!)

and if you look for "max power", you have to begin belance the amount of uran and plutonium power... so you get to most electrical output

glacial hemlock
#

To be safe, always go for max power setup.

#

Just remember what is the primary reason that makes one switching from turbofuel to nuclear

oblique hollow
#

So, according to Snutt, Pipe Bugs confirmed, but also complexity is good as it is aaand the rest is "learn and teach"

#

I call that a kinda success

sand garnet
#

Whats context for complexity is good

bleak coral
#

It's in the context of people's power breaking. Yes there are some pipe bugs, but most of the time it's because power wasn't set up for 100% capacity (true), and often because they don't understand fluids work because they're complex and they're hard to explain. But they're happy with how complex the fluid system currently is. They'd rather do a better job of teaching how it works in game.

#

timestamp of relevant part: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vuDlUdTeEMI&t=217s

YouTube
Coffee Stain
Known Issues with Update 4 and WHAT'S NEXT for Satisfactory??? 👀

Bet y'all are real curious about what's coming next to Satisfactory? Well, so are we actually.

0:00 Intro
0:47 Verify game files if you have issues
2:10 Power Changes Info
4:40 Connectivity Issues and work arounds
5:22 Foliage bugs
5:59 Name and Icon for game is wrong
7:01 Mods aren't officially supported (yet)
7:42 The future for Satisfactory...

▶ Play video
frosty pawn
#

prime the pipes before you turn everything on and most of your problems go away

#

i have a small fluid buffer in my 300 fuel/min pipe. i made sure the pipes and the buffer were full before connecting 25 fuel generators (no overclocks) and the pipes stay full, the power graph is a straight line, everything is perfect

#

i should add that upgrading the pipes to mk2 helps because you want to make sure that you dont rely on having exactly the full capacity of the pipes 100% of the time. the fluid requirement of the generators will fluctuate because it takes fluid out in small chunks and the pipe's throughput will dip below 300 temporarily. if it can't go up above 300 to make up for it, you will eventually run out of fluid inside one or more generators

#

this happens with conveyor belts too, but as we don't rely on them for power it's not as obvious or important. basic rule: do not rely on exactly 100% throughput 100% of the time for any kind of manifold. have some extra capacity in your pipes/belts for very large manifolds.

sand garnet
#

I cant watch

bleak coral
#

No, just addresses common bugs/problems, and no info on what's coming next beyond that they are working

sand garnet
#

Alright

loud heron
#

Wonder why they made fuel generators so weak

wind spade
loud heron
#

I feel like we either make WAY too much fuel

#

or those generators drink WAY too little

wind spade
#

just build more of them 🤷‍♂️

loud heron
#

Am I ALSO gunna have to make 100 Nuclear power plants?

#

Cause Fuel generators seem REALLY disproportionate

wind spade
#

depends on what you want to achieve 🤷‍♂️

loud heron
#

Game balance wise

wind spade
#

we have almost unlimited space

loud heron
#

Coal power plants are very space efficient and eat coal at a decent pace and make pretty much mid-game power

#

But fuel plants seem to make not as much power as Id expect

#

On top of requiring a FUCKLOAD of em and their counterpart prep facilities

wind spade
#

the thing with fuel is that there are alts that allow you to triple your fuel production from same amount of oil

loud heron
#

Perhaps thats the issue

wind spade
#

have a look at alt: heavy oil residue combined with alt: diluted fuel

loud heron
#

Technically not an exploit but extremely broken meta

#

I hope they nerf it or buff how much power a single fuel gen makes

#

I feel like 266 fuel generators in a single facilitty is unnecessary for the performance hit

#

A large multi hundred machine factory, I understand, its all bout item throughput and productivity

#

But it JUST feels like they made fuel gens way too underpowered

#

That or we just make way too much oil via diluted fuel

oblique hollow
#

fuel gen makes double the power of a normal coal gen but consumes like 1/4th of what a coal gen requires, both water and coal wise

#

though i do wish they were more like 300 MW instead of 150

#

id be fine if they also consume 24 fuel / min then

loud heron
#

I would really like if they scaled it up yeah

#

A factor of two would make it just right

muted crypt
#

I assume the scaling would also apply for turbofuel and for liquid biofuel

loud heron
#

Of course.

#

IMO Coffee Stain should try to make machines a bit more on the macro scale

#

Coal plants are fine, you put down like 16 of them and it carries you to Tier 5-6

#

But you need alot of power to start doing some of the heavier endgame stuff

muted crypt
#

I'd be in pain if they made a change like that shortly after I finish making this (which is almost done >.>) #screenshots message

loud heron
#

and unlike a belt of coal, fuel is a bit harder to expand on

bleak coral
#

I got the same feeling when I first got fuel generators, and the power generator curve is a little fucked. It goes 30 > 75 > 150 > 2500.

Like I don't mind nuclear being a big step up in terms of space to power and max power, but maybe we could soften the machine count curve a little bit.

Keep all the energy the same, just make fuel generators produce more power so you don't have to build as many of them.

loud heron
#

Im sure someone either can or has made a mod to just simply do that

bleak coral
#

I don't even think 500mw would be too much considering what we can do with them and turbofuel.

That or have a turbofuel generator that's that size. Cause honestly it's the turbofuel that's the problem.

loud heron
#

double the properties of fuel gens

#

The refineries are fine, they all fit onto a neat platform grid

#

But my friend atm is like "this is alot of fuel gens...Ima make two TALL TOWERS OF FUEL GENS"

#

cause neither of us think we have any horizontal space for the necessary generators

bleak coral
#

Yeah 4.5/min just leads to crazy fuel gen numbers.

muted crypt
#

@ my 800 needed for the power plant I'm working on

bleak coral
#

Precisely haha

#

There's a big gap between 150mw and 2500mw per generator to still let nuclear keep the crown of "most power in one machine"

deep talon
#

Yeah, and having 148 fuel gens for turbofuel is not helping my fluid dynamics

abstract copper
#

My last game I was working on a farm of over 500 gens to consume turbofuel.

#

My new one only has 50 or so so far for normal fuel

#

Factor of 10 increase in consumption and production would be nice

muted crypt
#

I feel like 10 would be too much for how much they cost to build

abstract copper
#

Increase that too then

glacial stag
#

They should add steam plants that fit in between the steps of natural gas and nuclear

abstract copper
#

Coal technically is steam

sand garnet
#

nuclear is also steam

errant mesa
#

So is geothermal

glacial stag
#

I mean more in that you have one boiler building to make steam using natural gas and water and another that's a steam generator.

sand garnet
#

create heat > boil water > cause steam > spin turbine

#

you're describing modular power from refined power mod

glacial stag
#

Higher power output that a natural gas plant, but slightly more complicated

#

Yeah, I might be.

sand garnet
#

it wouldnt really work well with vanilla as no other game mechanic has power working with 2 buildings like that

glacial stag
#

I don't do the modded

#

I'd welcome a bit more optional complexity in the power system to let you boost production.

sand garnet
#

optional isnt really optional though

glacial stag
#

The step from natural gas to nuclear is fairly sizeable. It could use a bit more sub-division in terms of progression.

sand garnet
#

you either do it or you dont

#

I feel like everyone should have access to every part of the game

#

and that is best done by applying consistency in game mechanics

glacial stag
sand garnet
#

i know, but its still inconsistent with every other part of the game

#

which IMO is bad game design

#

the game constantly conditions player regarding game mechanics and expectations

#

and then suddenly it would be 'lol sike' and you need to do something entirely different

glacial stag
#

...the game does that as you progress. You have to rebuild and learn new mechanics.

#

It's a change going from bio-generators to coal.

sand garnet
#

all the mechanics are still consistent though

glacial stag
#

What mechanic are you seeing as "inconsistent"? I'm curious.

sand garnet
#

all power is just 'input X/ Y' > produce power

glacial stag
#

But you have to take A,B and C to make X

sand garnet
#

if you need to make different steam or something, I feel that is a bit odd

glacial stag
#

You have to build a whole refinery before you can pump fuel into the natural gas generator

sand garnet
#

especially because it would be a singular item with a singular purpose

#

and it would require an entirely new building with a single purpose

glacial stag
#

Nitrogen gas has only one purpose.

#

Why not add steam gas too?

sand garnet
#

it has many more purposes though

glacial stag
#

From the "realistic" standpoint, that is how real power plants work. They've got separate machines and buildings to burn fuel, boil water and then pipe it over to another building that has a steam turbine.

sand garnet
#

games dont have to care about realism

glacial stag
#

They changed up nuke plants and added a water requirement where one didn't previously exist.

sand garnet
#

they have to be fun first and foremost

oblique hollow
#

theres a mod that does that i believe

sand garnet
#

yeah, modular power ( refined power mod)

#

I've actually worked on some of the models for that mod lol

oblique hollow
#

oh ok

#

didnt you also do something for the farming mod

sand garnet
#

yup

#

same team as refined power

bleak coral
#

Making it so it goes fuel > steam > power, instead of fuel > power doesn't seem like good added complexity for the base game.

#

Modular power seems neat, but I don't think it'd be good for the game to make power more complicated for everyone.

sand garnet
#

agreed

#

I helped make the mod, but honestly, I was confused as to how it worked lol

shadow prairieBOT
#

You can send Questions, Feedback, Suggestions, and Bug Reports at https://questions.satisfactorygame.com Anyway, if you want it

<3 @bleak coral

Satisfactory Q&A

The Satisfactory Questions and Answers website is a place to report bugs, suggest features, and look for fixes to any issues you run into.

bleak coral
#

We're just gonna disagree in here, if you want it in the game put it in front of the dev's eyes.

glacial stag
#

I mostly feel that there's a power generator "gap" in between natural gas and nuclear. You go from building a gazillion gas generators to a couple nukes and it seems like there should be some intermediary option. Steam generator plants were just an idea that popped into my head, but I won't claim that it's the answer.

oblique hollow
bleak coral
oblique hollow
#

wheres the Megafuel

bleak coral
#

Gigafuel?

sand garnet
#

potentially we'll have waterwheels somewhere in there as well in the future

#

and turbufuel could be considered a stepping stone between fuel and nuclear too

glacial stag
# sand garnet games dont have to care about realism

Games, don't have to be realistic, yes I agree with you. However, games are a form of storytelling and all good stories have a basis in something the audience can relate to, part of their reality. Not every story benefits from being realistic, but all stories take inspiration from reality.

This game is inspired countless ways from the reality of factories, generators and industrial manufacturing. Is it realistic, obviously no. It simplifies things and adds some totally fictitious and magical processes and items, but it still at it's core is based off of reality.

sand garnet
#

that's stretching it a bit though

#

everything has a basis in reality

#

but we're on an alien planet, fighting firespitting mobs, building floating factories where gravity subjectively affects creatures, players and vehicles ( not trains though, lol)
we spawn objects from a pocket dimension and nearly insta-build big-ass machines

glacial stag
#

I'm not arguing for Satisfactory to be realistic. I am disputing your claim that "games don't care about realism".

sand garnet
#

it's just weird to me to point at a specific small aspect and go 'well this is where I draw the line'

oblique hollow
#

satis picks what it wants from reality and rejects anything else

muted crypt
#

it rejects the player's humanity for the sake of progress

sand garnet
#

let me rephrase it more accurately then: "Games do not have to care about realism"

oblique hollow
#

and as far as things currently stand, its looking pretty great otherwise

glacial stag
sand garnet
#

realism can be thrown out the window if it interferes with fun and consistency

glacial stag
oblique hollow
#

who knows, maybe hydro power and natural gas will be added to tier 7

sturdy loom
sand garnet
#

exactly

glacial stag
#

But also, the best stories have an element of truth to them.

#

It's a balancing act.

oblique hollow
#

Satis has enough truth already. Also it doesnt have a story yet soooooo

#

No truth needed where theres no story xd

glacial stag
#

It does have a story. We just haven't been told it yet.

#

They've written out the whole thing already.

oblique hollow
#

Oh i know. But for us it might as well not even exist yet

keen flame
#

Games don't always need a story to be fun

sand garnet
#

I just think that changing a game mechanic players have been conditioned into for hundreds of hours for one machine to be a bad idea

#

if you could come up with more reasons for the boiler to exist, for example, it would already be a bit better

#

but people would probably still just think of the steam as the 'fuel for this new generator'

keen flame
glacial stag
sand garnet
#

that's subjective though

sturdy loom
#

Heres a basic story I can say, your stranded on a planet with some stuff and you get more stuff by feeding expensive materials to the space gods with a storage container with rockets and a space elavator

glacial stag
#

Reality is subjective.

sand garnet
#

for me, 'better' = whatever matches expectations of players

oblique hollow
#

the devs have said that they pretty much went through every concept there is already

#

so if power is the way it is, it must have a reason

keen flame
oblique hollow
#

Guess they want the complexity to be elsewhere

glacial stag
#

Nitrogen was labeled as the "first gas" in the game.

sand garnet
oblique hollow
glacial stag
keen flame
#

The hard fact is that players will always disagree with each other on what they want in a game, and many players are a) completely oblivious to good game design or b) just plain dumb

sand garnet
#

at what point do you decide that you cannot completely overhaul a game mechanic though

#

I think we've pretty much passed that point right now

oblique hollow
#

or c) dont know game design well enough to determine what would be a good game mechanic

glacial stag
#

...still in early access.

sand garnet
#

update 3 happened, power has changed

abstract copper
oblique hollow
#

they swapped the input method, thats all

sand garnet
#

overhauling power twice would be a bit odd IMO

keen flame
#

I dint think we have. I don't think there's ever a point where its too late to overhaul game mechanics

#

League of legends completely overhauls core mechanics yearly. They're one of the most popular games on the planet

glacial stag
#

It'll be too late when the devs quit.

oblique hollow
#

the point of no return is when your change to the game would fuck over not just 30% of the playerbase but 80%

keen flame
abstract copper
sand garnet
#

people barely understand coal power as it is

keen flame
#

That's not put of my ass btw. That actually happened in the past

sand garnet
#

aluminiun got changed because it was too complex as well

glacial stag
#

I'm hoping this game falls into an development cycle similar to minecraft where they just keep developing and updating the game for as long as players want to play it.

oblique hollow
glacial stag
#

Cheaters are like weeds. If there's a ton of them it's probably the native flora.

keen flame
#

I'm just saying, in game design, there us never a point of no return

oblique hollow
#

also my statement was in relation to fucking over peoples saves

sand garnet
#

how do you think it affects players who struggle with coal power currently, making it even more complex alienates that part of the playerbase

keen flame
sand garnet
#

and you'd be surprised at how many people are in this category lol

keen flame
#

But also: Destiny did that last year

glacial stag
oblique hollow
#

doesnt destiny have loot drops that can be sold or something?

sand garnet
#

coal is an example of 'complexity being a burden on players'

keen flame
#

Destiny overhauled level progression and made nearly everything people had collected to that point worthless

oblique hollow
#

its really only the pipes that are troublesome at coal power

sand garnet
#

making power more complex by stepping away from the conditioned game mechanics for this new generator would further alienate players like that

keen flame
#

It's impossible to please every player

sand garnet
#

they want the game to be accessible to as many players as possible

#

hence the changes to aluminium in update 4, for example

oblique hollow
#

Pipes are a already complex topic, but they also are vastly deep. their learning curve is..... steep. Drowning-at-the-bottom-of-an-ocean-trench deep

sand garnet
#

they saw people stopped playing when they hit alu tech

keen flame
glacial stag
#

We're also talking about a medium-late game power generator. Players would have to be fairly competent and dedicated to even get there in the first place.

sand garnet
#

they've specifically mentioned this on stream for example

oblique hollow
#

you want the difficulty to increase gradually.

keen flame
sand garnet
#

again, devs have been pretty consistent in their comments about what they want the game to be like

keen flame
#

They aren't likely to, nor do I want them to, but it's not an absolute

keen flame
glacial stag
#

A tier 6 or 7 power generator would be a great way to introduce the mechanics of gases just like fuel generators/refineries introduce the mechanics of fluids.

oblique hollow
keen flame
sand garnet
oblique hollow
#

if i wanted mind breaking complexity id play kerbal space programe or whatever.

#

idk whats the most hardcore planner game there is

glacial stag
bleak coral
keen flame
oblique hollow
#

oh yea, Oxygen Not Included

sand garnet
#

I'm just basing it off the experience I have with CSS and being active in the community for the past 2 years lol

bleak coral
#

oxygen not included is really cool, it's also a lot, sadly too much for me

sand garnet
#

brb, watching series

glacial stag
oblique hollow
#

from the point of game design, revamping power complexity to be even worse would kill the poor first time coal gen builders

keen flame
keen flame
#

It's already a leap in complexity

glacial stag
#

You don't wanna disenfranchise first time players in the early game. Coal shouldn't become any more complex than it is right now.

oblique hollow
#

at this point you might as well play roulette or look into a crystal ball. we can only hope that CSS makes reasonable choices

#

aaand so far it looks quite ok

keen flame
#

I tend to think they will

oblique hollow
#

Mark mentioned that he knows of the "hardcore builders" and what they think, but he has expressed that he is also very considerate of the normal level players

keen flame
#

I agree with most of the choices they've made so far, and was very outspoken about the ones I didn't xD (original plutonium)

oblique hollow
#

Im happy enough that they acknowledged "yes, theres some issues with pipes".
The statement before that was "What pipe issues lul"

keen flame
oblique hollow
keen flame
#

Which he also said in stream I believe

oblique hollow
#

keep the normal route rather simple, but add more complexity with alts so players can crack their head open over that

keen flame
oblique hollow
#

that seems to be the current idea they have

#

since normal players are unlikely to rigourously hunt for all the alts

bleak coral
#

I actually thinks alts could be made more accessible without hurting hardcore players. I think hard drives are one of the weakest parts of the game.

#

The randomness of alts really hurts casual people only collecting some of them. They may not end up with any recipes they like.

oblique hollow
keen flame
#

Personally, I greatly enjoy hard drive and slug hunting

oblique hollow
#

just as with the slugs and with new nodes

keen flame
#

But that's because I love exploration in games

bleak coral
#

The hunting part is great! It's the randomness of the drives I don't like.

keen flame
#

The randomness is also fine imo

#

It encourages the average player to use what they get

bleak coral
#

Hardcore players will always get all the drives, so randomness ultimately doesn't really affect them. It's the casual players it hurts, because they may not end up with anything they like cause they won't go hunt them all down.

keen flame
#

But hardcore players won't be affected by the randomness

bleak coral
#

And I'm not sure there's fun to be had with "deal with what you get"

keen flame
oblique hollow
#

what would be more fun would be:

1) Oil Refinement
2) Steel Production
3) Aluminum production

Please select the fragment you wish to analyze and restore```
keen flame
#

There are entire games built around that idea, and tbh it's a core principle of game design

bleak coral
#

oh randomness can be very fun, but I just don't think it fits with this game

keen flame
oblique hollow
#

and then after some time you get 3 recipes from that category to choose from

bleak coral
#

no other part of this game is random

#

also mark has talked about different alt recipes being for different kinds of players, I just think it'd be better if those recipes could end up in the right hands

tender silo
#

Hi guys

keen flame
#

That randomness is actually going to be the main thing driving people forward who create multiple saves

oblique hollow
#

if the hard drives gave you a choice similar to what i mentioned right before you scan the drives, that would make hunting for recipes you desire easier

#

aaaand also encourages hunting

tender silo
#

Does someone know if it is possible to control conveyor on demand? I mean, I am building a sorter but it becomes full very quickly. I wonder if it is possible to let component passes in function of a factory requirement.

oblique hollow
#

since then you actually know "oooooh i can get a new recipe for X Production"

loud heron
oblique hollow
loud heron
#

You can sort items using a smart/programmable splitter

#

If you got any extra, just send it into an AWESOME Sink

tender silo
#

Yes, I already use that and it is a very useful stuff.

oblique hollow
#

i guess you mean turning conveyors on and off?

tender silo
#

But, I've made a big sorter that loop on itself.

tender silo
oblique hollow
#

No such thing, sorry

loud heron
#

You cannot turn them off.

oblique hollow
#

That would probably fall under Logic Systems

#

and we dont really have any of those yet

tender silo
#

Arf, maybe we can offer the idea to the development team

shadow prairieBOT
#

You can send Questions, Feedback, Suggestions, and Bug Reports at https://questions.satisfactorygame.com

<3 @oblique hollow

Satisfactory Q&A

The Satisfactory Questions and Answers website is a place to report bugs, suggest features, and look for fixes to any issues you run into.

oblique hollow
#

im sure logic systems have already been suggested

#

be sure to search for existing posts before you make a new one

loud heron
#

OR, AND, and NOT gates would be weird.
Factories as they are are pretty self sufficient

oblique hollow
#

but its fun complexity

tender silo
#

It is not really about logic, but rather just allow a conveyor to star when a factory is demanding... and this is... logic 😅

oblique hollow
#

congrats, you discovered: Logic jace_smile

#

If (Demand) then (turn on conveyor)

tender silo
#

Just imagine a loop sorter connected to all your factory and conveyor start when the factory is empty

loud heron
#

Im really not sure what this achieves.

oblique hollow
#

it sure is a way to do something, but i dont know what for either

tender silo
#

I am worling on loop sorting system, this is why a tried to reproduce what exist in real life.

loud heron
#

If you have a box that is too full to accept things from a sorter, you probably need a second box

#

not loop your items

oblique hollow
#

dont you usually want things to always produce

loud heron
#

Theres no shame in blocked factories or just sinking extra items

#

If its an item you need on hand AND on factory demand, just make two boxes

#

One for the factory and one for you
Sink the rest.

oblique hollow
#

the only time a factory magically needs more demand is when you build extra

#

since there are no customers here with varying demand

#

so there is no need for stop-and-go production

tender silo
loud heron
oblique hollow
#

irl you dont, but here you have total control and overview

loud heron
#

If the sorter is full, its time to throw the extra away elsewhere.

oblique hollow
#

demand doesnt suddenly decrease, unless you messed up something

loud heron
tender silo
#

I already do that, but It would simplify my life with a logic.

oblique hollow
#

usually theres annual prognostics on expected demand

tender silo
#

When you make a sorter, you don't control demand.

#

You should see my plant to understand.

#

You just open valve and let it go. This is why it is awesome.

loud heron
#

Realistically you probably just want actual segregated conveyers

glacial stag
#

What is the best manufacturing ethos? Do you take resources nodes and bring them to one mega does everything factory or do you try and partially process and refine parts where they're mined first?

loud heron
#

If they're high throughput products

oblique hollow
loud heron
oblique hollow
#

also they take a dump on perfomance

#

spreading things out is usually better and safer

loud heron
#

If you need a computer factory, plan out each part in its own subfactory.

oblique hollow
#

process resources where you extract them, then ship them around if needed

glacial stag
tender silo
#

It seems that my dream will die in the egg.

loud heron
#

Egg?

glacial stag
#

I have one giant ingot factory for all the ingots, one massive refinery for all oil goods etc and then I'm planning to just use trains to fill up more advanced satellite factories such as electronics and nuclear goodies with the processed materials they need.

loud heron
#

Thats one way to do it

tender silo
loud heron
#

That's technically a form of mega factory.

#

That branches to subfactories

glacial stag
tender silo
#

Go to go, thank all for you support.

loud heron
#

As stated, theres plenty of iron and copper and etc around the world

#

and theres only so much throughput a conveyer belt and a train can do

#

Might as well make multiple of your "ingot" factories

#

or just make a product specifically on site

#

like a "plate" factory and a "rod" factory

#

etc etc, go more specialized if needed

glacial stag
#

I've stopped making dedicated plate, rod etc. factories. I build those as needed to make more complex components such as super computers.

loud heron
#

Having Satisfactory tools has really helped specialize my factory designs

glacial stag
#

I just really got tired of trying to process ingots in so many different places.

#

Same for oil products.

loud heron
#

Theres no shame with smelters at every iron node

#

either way they all gotta be made somewhere, and theres plenty of map

glacial stag
#

Yeah, but it's a pain in the butt to upgrade and expand production.

loud heron
#

Saves time sending all the iron to one place, only to send it all back elsewhere.

glacial stag
#

Also advanced alt recipes need multiple ores at once.

loud heron
glacial stag
#

But what about mass build/upgrade?

loud heron
#

Blueprints are a dream

oblique hollow
#

not quite

#

its in discussion

loud heron
#

Yeah, just officialy was the thing.

oblique hollow
#

so maybe we do get some kind of blueprinting some day

loud heron
#

Im concerned how it'llgo

#

Placing a giant multi ten factory sounds a lil hard without some verticality

#

like a jetpack

bleak coral
#

I think the anti-blueprints camp is slowly losing ground, their opinion has slowly shifted from "most of us don't want it" to "we'll probably do something"

#

I think mark has always wanted blueprints

loud heron
#

blueprints would make modular factories alot easir

#

Question just is properly placing it

bleak coral
#

I'd settle for mass building, mostly want it for foundations and walls

#

there's something medatative about setting up piping/belting

loud heron
#

Id like Stacking foundations and walls

#

with mouse drag

torpid gorge
#

lol my friend in factorio used blueprints to queue 10000x10000 areas of wire poles to fuck with the server

#

it wasnt break-the-game laggy but i feel like that would be a genuine concern for a 3d game like satisfactory

oblique hollow
#

especially with the object limit

bleak coral
oblique hollow
#

which is why, if we ever get blueprints, they would be very limited

loud heron
#

I dont know how well Satisfactory handles room-culling, if it even does room culling at all

#

But itd be cool if we could "bake" a factory design and its just a box that takes input and output

#

Cant modify the inside of it, just a baked factory cube

oblique hollow
#

that seems..... boring tbh

loud heron
#

It'd save on object limit.

#

and youd have to design the original factory first before you could box it

oblique hollow
#

a tool that allows you to place rows of buildings seems better fit

loud heron
#

Realistically Im guessing the major issue with object limit is just giant ass refineries and fuel generator depots

#

since those go easilyinto the hundreds

oblique hollow
#

the object limit isnt just game objects, it much more broad

bleak coral
#

it's any large scale use of production buildings, those are the worst offenders

#

klepdar easily ran into it with max nuclear

#

I mean I say easily like that wasn't a silly big save haha

loud heron
#

That seems primarily to be a problem with how little factories take in and out

#

ala my previous discussion with fuel generators

#

If said production factories took in double, maybe triple, and made similar output, we could cut down the count by factors of 2 and 3

#

I suppose you can technically offset that by overclocking everything

#

but buildings are power hungry af

wind spade
loud heron
#

Stacking coveyers is easy

wind spade
#

it's not about stacking conveyors, it's about high speeds being broken in general

#

meaning the conveyors would not work properly

#

also the game will be three times as resource demanding

#

which would make it run horribly on low-end machines

frosty owl
frosty pawn
#

if you wanna place a row of buildings, place one and hold ctrl while you aim at the side of it to place the next one. you can spam buildings like spamming foundations. i can place 8 coal generators in 1 second this way. so annoying when i see streamers who boast thousands of hours of play time not know how to snap buildings 🤦‍♂️

loud heron
#

Its not made inherently obvious

muted crypt
#

I also don't like doing that because if I mess up the placement for even one structure in a 50 structure line it's all gonna be wrong and need to be redone

#

so I just do it the "slow" way anyway

sacred skiff
#

Do power slugs respawn?

wind spade
sacred skiff
#

😮

#

so you only have X amount of overclock items available?

bleak coral
wind spade
sacred skiff
#

So its not worth using them on machines?

wind spade
#

not really

#

building two constructors uses less power than having one constructor overclocked to 200%

#

while being identical in resource output

sacred skiff
#

true dat

#

so its all about conveyor speed at the end then

wind spade
#

so it's never "worth" because of power, ofc you can use it if you want, but generally you only want to use them on miners and oil pumps, as those are limited by amount of nodes

sacred skiff
#

I see

upbeat hinge
#

That said if you go really big, over clocking everything is a way to reduce the number of buildings to help performance. But again, that’s when you are going really big.

bleak coral
#

using slugs on production machines and power generators is convenience, nothing more

#

and we do have enough slugs to use them on more than miners, so just where it'd be nice to not add more machines and you can spare the power

wind spade
#

using them on gens actually doesn't have any power disadvantage, it just makes the numbers weird, so if you're ok with that, using them on gens is slightly better than using on machines

muted crypt
#

What clock speed would a non-reactor generator producing/consuming exactly 2x be set to?

wind spade
#

even with 4 decimals precision you're unable to get exactly 2x

muted crypt
#

as close as possible then

bleak coral
wind spade
#

246.2288% is safer

#

results in 199.999948% of production

#

while 246.2289% results in 200.0000108% production

bleak coral
#

I'd consider that close enough, I'd bet there's floating point errors bigger than that

muted crypt
#

why can't they just all follow reactors >.>

unknown.png
bleak coral
#

I have.... opinions, but I have hard drive hunting to do so....

muted crypt
#

I have to go hard drive hunting soon too!

#

it's just... to find one hard drive that I left in a wreck....

#

😭

wind spade
bleak coral
muted crypt
#

ignorance truly is bliss, I guess

wind spade
bleak coral
#

I'd strangle a motherfucker be unhappy about it

versed violet
#

Making a steel-stuff factory, it this a good ratio of outputs for whatever-I-should-need-but-don't-have-numbers?
Steel beam: 30
Steel pipe: 184
Enc beam: 48
Stator: 60

muted crypt
#

I'd argue far more than you'd ever need, but that's just me

#

beams are only useful if you want the mk3 belts or if you're making a bunch of ISCs, pipes are used for a lot of stuff so that can be higher, encased beams are used in mk2 miners and mk4 belts, and stators are used exclusively in power storage

loud heron
versed violet
muted crypt
#

#screwscrews

#

only use alts that don't use them, change my mind

versed violet
loud heron
#

I mean if you got leftover steel

versed violet
muted crypt
#

when progressing initially I tend to just produce one machine's worth of output per minute, based on whatever recipe I'm choosing

#

once I expand beyond that I look at what has a lot of uses and plan accordingly

#

for example, I might be fine with doing 10-20 HMFs/min but only 15 steel beams/min

#

(note: these are output)

versed violet
#

Technically this one is at tier 7/8, and splitting off the main megafactory into localized smaller factories.
The output ratios are for one pure iron node + coal at coal lake, + nearby copperz.

stray iris
#

48 steel (encased) beams wont even feed 4 HMF manufacturers

versed violet
stray iris
versed violet
stray iris
#

my bad

#

obvsly ment encased industrial beams

versed violet
#

If I need more, I'll build a second steel factoree just for those

stray iris
#

im bad at addition

#

sry

#

still seemes small

versed violet
#

My current hmf capacity is 1 (one) manufacturer, so it will be a 400% increase!

loud heron
#

Anyone got a good rule of thumb for making basic construction materials?

#

For making buildings and stuff, not for other products

bleak coral
#

1 - 2 machines worth, or 5 - 20 parts per minute whichever sounds more appealing, if it's not enough add more machines (like for concrete and iron plates for foundations/walls)

#

concrete and iron plates I'd do like 30 - 50 parts per minute

loud heron
#

Im considering leeching materials off an original factory line

bleak coral
#

maybe iron rods too, depending on how much you like railing and ladders

loud heron
#

But Im thinking it might be best to just dedicate an iron node purely for plates and rods and stuff

bleak coral
#

either works as long as you get the math right, I've got a few materials that are excess from bigger productions, but I don't generally do that anymore

#

I stopped that after steel more or less, though it's useful to do that with byproducts from oil too cause otherwise they're not doing anything

loud heron
#

I suppose.

#

I guess Ill go with the dedicated iron node way

#

Thanks.

lament jolt
#

Someone find me a rubber room... I have a mega plan to set up a total of 355 different production lines...

loud heron
#

Thats as many production lines as there are coca cola flavors

#

Define "rubber room"

lament jolt
#

My goal set. Each number represents a total machine count making the final product...

Screenshot_20210423-162651.png
wind spade
#

What will you produce in 355 production lines? There's not even that many different items

#

Oh you mean number of machines, not production lines

lament jolt
#

No, I mean I want that many final machines making each of those items for my main storage area

wind spade
#

That seems like a lot more than you'd realistically need

calm tinsel
#

is this all build with mk3's?

bleak coral
#

those 10 manufacturers making HMFs is gonna be like 90% of this

wind spade
#

And AI limiters

bleak coral
#

it'll be a lot, not nearly as much as the HMFs though

wind spade
#

Yeah seems like way too much, I'd go forr like 1/5 th of this at most

lament jolt
#

Pretty much I have grown to hate splitters on lines of constructors or assemblers...I connect full speed Mk2 from pure...and after 3 machines, idle city

cedar mica
#

For personal use, 1 machine running is enough, except for concrete. Might be a little slow when making lots of machines or trains, but you wont burn through an ISU on most project, fast enough

bleak coral
#

oh yeah that's the flip side, keeping one or two ISC helps a lot with low-throughput to storage, cause you have a lot of buffer

versed violet
lament jolt
#

Not unlocked yet

bleak coral
#

I was about to say you should have more storage for concrete, but then I remembered it stacks to 500 now lol

lament jolt
#

Oh those numbers aren't storage... I really do want 50 separate lines making concrete...

cedar mica
#

That depends on how far away you are building. If you are building right next to the storage, even 2 pure nods, cant keep up, once you get the groove in. Further away, even an impure node, might keep up, as you spend less per minute, thanks to travel

lament jolt
#

Plan is to have storage containers buffer and not split from the miners directly. Lots of containers. Lots...

cedar mica
#

I have had to use mods, to be physical able to burn more concrete then 2 pure nods

#

So 1 ISU connected to 2 pure nods making concrete, is more then enough

bleak coral
#

yeah that should be fine, cause that's 24,000 concrete

lament jolt
#

I figure I can run all the nodes I have tamed and fill up tons of containers, then switch on one group of machines in sequence. Let the next group fill up..

bleak coral
#

that's actually about what I was storing in U3 with 6 ISCs