#math-and-meta

1 messages · Page 520 of 1

twin peak
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yup

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i can also have lines of 300

iron prairie
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Simpler than a 5:6 balancer would likely be just an injected manifold, and given that injected manifolds are a PITA, that's saying something.

frosty owl
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Plutonium recipes analysis. TLDR in the Conclusions (bottom)
Max uranium rods + Max plutonium rods, aka Max Plutorium (All alts except the fertile uranium)
You pump in as many exotic materials as you can to get the biggest amount of nuclear power possible, which is 1.19 TW from 50.4 Uranium Fuel Rods and 22.4 Plutonium Fuel Rods.
Particularly heavy on "rare" resources, as it takes:
-8512 Nitrogen Gas (8k purely for acid)
-3108 Sulfur
-1972.8 Quartz
-1493.33 Bauxite.
That is excluding the 22.4 Pressure Conversion Cubes needed for the Plutonium Fuel Rods.
The nuclear processing alone (the processing of uranium and plutonium products) requires 45 Assemblers, 168 Manifacturers, 68 Blenders and 45 Particle Accelerators (~48 GW)

Partial Uranium + Fertile Uranium plutonium processing, aka Max Plutonium (All alts, using fertile uranium)
By diving the uranium at the ratio of 41,67:50 (which are the amounts needed to make 1 Uranium Fuel Rod and 1 Plutonium Fuel Rod respectively) between the uranium and plutonium processing, you achieve a slightly smaller amount of power while saving on "rare" resources. The output is 1.05 TW (1'049'875 MW) from 22.91 Uranium Fuel Rods and 30.54 Plutonium Fuel Rods.
The required materials (excluding the extra 8.14 Pressure Conversion Cubes for the Plutonium Rods) are (difference compared to Max Plutorium in parenthesis):
-7941.44 Nitrogen Gas ( -570.56 )
-2082.41 Sulfur ( -1025.59 )
-539.97 Quartz ( -1432.83 )
-2036.27 Bauxite ( +542.94 )
The machines required are 62 Assemblers, 78 Manifacturers, 46 Blenders, 62 Particle Accelerators (~55 GW)
Note: this method produces the biggest possible amount of plutonium waste

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Conclusions
I think some more balancing could be needed. Max Plutonium saves a small amount of rare resources, but consumes more Bauxite than Max Plutorium while consuming more power and outputting more waste. I see no good enough advantages in using this recipe, unless one is really short on Sulfur or Quartz.
@bleak coral @wind spade @oblique hollow @vast jungle @keen flame

oblique hollow
glacial tinsel
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max plutonium giving less power and more waste is just final proof fertile uranium is worthless

frosty owl
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Agreed. The waste in particular is a real bummer. It'd make sense if we were to get more power from it, but we don't

wind spade
bleak coral
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Can you not change the ratio of the rods from 1:1 to something else?

frosty owl
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Wdym?

bleak coral
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Since plut rods are 4x the power, what's the part stopping you from using fertile to make more plut rods than uranium rods?

frosty owl
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The fact that in the end you don't get as much power, but still get more un-recyclable waste

bleak coral
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as in the more uranium you shift to making plutonium fuel rods the less overall power you get?

glacial tinsel
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so hes asking whats the minimum uranium you need to maximize plutonium

frosty owl
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Using the Fertile uranium alt, the uranium rods go from 50.4 to 22.91, while the plutonium ones go from 22.4 to 30.54. So with fertile uranium you get a total power that is about 140 GW inferior to Max Plutorium

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That's 1145.4 for the Plutonium part and 954.5 for the Uranium part

bleak coral
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You get 286,375MW from uranium rods and 763,500MW from the plutonium in that split, so you get more energy from uranium ore going to make plutonium rods

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so the ore shouldn't be split evenly, the uranium rods should be minimized

frosty owl
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Max Plutonium:
https://u4.satisfactorytools.com/production?share=FRcrApnOjhe29lPgoXcX
Max Plutorium:
https://u4.satisfactorytools.com/production?share=kDWHsxS7LxzIOoIoYI4o

Satisfactory Tools

A collection of powerful tools for planning and building the perfect base. Calculate your production or consumption, browse items, buildings, and schematics and share your builds with others!

Satisfactory Tools

A collection of powerful tools for planning and building the perfect base. Calculate your production or consumption, browse items, buildings, and schematics and share your builds with others!

bleak coral
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You made the decision to split the ore evenly between uranium rods and plutonium rods, and I'm wondering if that was an arbitrary decision or because of some limitation

frosty owl
frosty owl
bleak coral
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oh I misread, oops

frosty owl
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I tried to edit it so that it would be more readable, but the character limit got a bit in the way 😅

bleak coral
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this confused me (the bolded part):

By diving the uranium at the ratio of 41,67:50 (1 Uranium Fuel Rod : 1 Plutonium Fuel Rod) between the uranium and plutonium processing

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so that is the most plutonium fuel rods you can make?

frosty owl
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Better now?

bleak coral
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ok yeah, fertile probably needs a buff then

frosty owl
bleak coral
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or just undo the doubling of the cost of making uranium cells, I think that was a bad decision overall

iron prairie
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Still running the math, but right now, I'm at 4.48 plutonium rods/min without fertile uranium.

frosty owl
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Tbf, I wouldn't mind, it would mean I could OC more machines :P

frosty owl
bleak coral
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idk, to be frank I wouldn't mind if the whole goal of this was just to increase waste reduction and we got some bonus power from fixing infused uranium cell

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but it was weird they also nerfed instant plutonium cell

frosty owl
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Tbf, like this we DO get a good amount of power out of plutonium. But not so much to justify using the fertile uranium alt (again, you get more plutonium waste but LESS power disappointed_snutt )

iron prairie
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As a heads-up, one of your links uses "maximize", which can be problematic.

frosty owl
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I checked my numbers, I'm pretty confident I ruled out any mistake like that 👍

iron prairie
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It tells you how much of something you can get, but doesn't optimize the inputs to get that much for the least input.

frosty owl
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And yes, I also followed the diagram to be sure it used the recipes I wanted :)

iron prairie
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Another solution to that is just to copy the maximum production quantity, and paste it in via "items/min".

bleak coral
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removing the pressure cubes is also probably not fair, because one uses more cubes than the other cause it makes more plutonium rods

frosty owl
frosty owl
bleak coral
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that's an extra 800ish bauxite, that's not insignificant

frosty owl
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Sp the difference would be about 1400 more bauxite used with the Fertile route due to the extra pressure cubes (instead of 542 more as cited before)

frosty owl
bleak coral
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It's more than the difference without them, so yes they should be included. It also cuts out almost half of your listed nitrogen savings.

frosty owl
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I didn't even consider that a saving to be honest 😅 (didn't mention it in the conclusion)

deft lichen
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I'd need to see both setups' raw ore consumption in a table

frosty owl
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But modifying that would be a pain now... Also due to character count disappointed_snutt

deft lichen
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plutonium gives 4x the power uranium does, so if it's feasible it's better than uranium

frosty owl
bleak coral
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oh while you're here, how do you change recipes in the wiki? my change didn't take

deft lichen
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max plutorium gives more power

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it's therefore the "true" way to be considered in calculations and in trivias

frosty owl
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Not only that: the alt makes LESS power for MORE waste (which I think is not intended by CS)

deft lichen
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more waste sounds like what they would do, lol

frosty owl
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I mean, if it were more waste for more power OR less resources used, I'd be ok with it thinking_helmet

bleak coral
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It saves on sulfur & quartz, but it uses a lot more bauxite so 🤷‍♂️

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nitrogen isn't that much different

deft lichen
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plutonium is now 0.1/min?

bleak coral
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yeah

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let me double check though, because the patch notes can be liars
stares at the notes for plutonium cells

iron prairie
deft lichen
bleak coral
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yeah I'm sure it's right, I'm just being salty 😆

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and thorough

iron prairie
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AFAICT, fertile uranium does still maximize overall power, both raw power (779 > 742 GW) and net power (699 > 666.6658 GW)

deft lichen
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476 nuclear plants can be sustained

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so it's exactly 1.19 TW

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went from 1.18 TW in update 3 😛

iron prairie
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Somebody's math is wrong there.

deft lichen
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but the plutonium reprocessing takes some power

iron prairie
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Either mine, or whoever gave you that figure.

deft lichen
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((50.4/0.2)+(22.4/0.1))*2500

frosty owl
iron prairie
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50.4 sounds right for uranium rods, but 22.4 is 5x more plutonium rods than I'm getting.

deft lichen
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max plutorium

frosty owl
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Remember 50.4 rods is 5'040 waste

deft lichen
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@frosty owl I assume the production of waste from the uranium fuel rods was calculated with?

iron prairie
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Probably because I forgot to account for the 5 min burn time of uranium rods. This means a lot of work to be redone...

frosty owl
frosty owl
deft lichen
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max plutorium is the way for max power then

vast jungle
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hi, I am just looking at the "nuclear waste removal" numbers... doesn't look like they changed that much, at least from the waste point of view... right?

frosty owl
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Plutonium sucks up more waste per rod, I think

vast jungle
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yes, but the resources to get rid of 100 waste both in terms of resources and power are still CHEAP

oblique hollow
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by Snutt, are you guys still on about Plutonium?

glacial tinsel
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thats all there is to talk about

vast jungle
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no, I just joined the discussion...

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we had some nice easy numbers before the patch... either "cheap removal" or 75% more power...
but I think the later changed

glacial tinsel
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so i know the max is 22.4, but i choose to believe its actually 22.5, because that makes the ratios happy :)

oblique hollow
vast jungle
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so you get 4 times as much power for the same amount of nuclear waste than before?

oblique hollow
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for less waste

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4 times more for half the waste

vast jungle
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so 8 times amount of power???

oblique hollow
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.... kinda

glacial tinsel
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4 times the power, 4 times the cost* half the waste

oblique hollow
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4 * 4 / 2 = 8 confirmed

vast jungle
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so for each nuclear powerplant (2500 MW) you can get another 20000 MW if you reuse the waste???

fierce ruin
glacial tinsel
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they said in the patch notes it was only double the cost, but they doubled two recipies

bleak coral
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for non-alt recipes (the most waste reduction), it's now the same amount of power for the same amount of uranium fuel rods, but with 2x the waste reduction

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because it takes 4x the uranium waste but produces 2x the plutonium waste

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using both instant plutonium and plutonium fuel unit, the wast reduction is more but the power is less because instant plutonium cell got nerfed

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compared to last patch

vast jungle
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hmm...

bleak coral
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the total is much higher because they fixed infused uranium cell so we have more waste in total

vast jungle
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so if I get you right (I didn't had time to look into the numbers myself) there is MORE incentive to use plutonium for fuel... because it gives you more energy

bleak coral
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nope

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it just reduces waste more, it's not making more energy than last patch

oblique hollow
bleak coral
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yeah

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cause it takes 4x the waste or more compared to last patch using the same recipes

iron prairie
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Before I caught my factor-of-5 error, I thought "You know, they actually made the secondary resource cost of plutonium alts reasonable."

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Now: "AHAHAHAHAHA no."

bleak coral
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the maxes are higher, cause we have more max waste now, due to a uranium thing

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and also more max uranium fuel rods too

vast jungle
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I don't get what you say with "due to an uranium thing"...

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sorry...

bleak coral
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they fixed the infused uranium cell alt so it uses uranium ore instead of pellets, and it's more efficient than the default recipe

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so the max uranium fuel rods went up, and thus so did the max uranium waste

vast jungle
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but the ratio of "nuclear power to plutonium power" went down

keen flame
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I was just talking to sms yesterday and ran a ton of the numbers, lemme post them again in a mjnute here. Gotta get to my computer

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Unless you have them on hand @iron prairie

bleak coral
vast jungle
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okay...

bleak coral
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well specifically one recipe: instant plutonium cell

iron prairie
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Finished with v2 of my numbers. I've replicated 1.19 TW of power for "all alts except fertile uranium", but I'm getting 1.424 TW for fertile uranium (and 1.278 TW of net power).

keen flame
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Jesus, those numbers are way higher than I got

iron prairie
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May have caught my error there.

keen flame
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What's your building count for each of the nuclear recipes?

iron prairie
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Now I'm getting 1.26 TW of raw power and 1.13 TW of net power for fertile uranium.

vast jungle
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is there a good plan for production number with Project Assembly?

I am looking at phase 3 at the moment (for unlocking Tier 7/8 when U4 comes to EA) and I am not even sure it makes sense to build a permanent factory for them...

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or maybe just with very small numbers per minute

fierce ruin
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it does help having a good sized factory for that phase cuz it takes fing long

glacial tinsel
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i just set up a couple manufacturers and fed them from my boxes of the other items i had automated

fierce ruin
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^

vast jungle
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I am thinking about the same thing...
on the other side I have automated everything in Tier 1-6 (except for Crystal Oscilators, which I don't need), so maybe setting up a small factory might be better?

fierce ruin
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COs you will need a few later on

vast jungle
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I have already Quartz Crystal production... but in U3 there were not many good reasons to produce COs ^^

fierce ruin
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it's been awhile for me, but if you can make it work knock yourself out

vast jungle
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If I see it right I need all Phase 3 Parts as dependencies for Phase 4 again... sigh

fierce ruin
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I have to rebuild it from scratch yay

vast jungle
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what do you think about the idea making enough of Phase 3 stuff that I can later get one machine running for each Phase 4 item (1 at 100%)?

fierce ruin
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can't say not there yet

vast jungle
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just browsing through the numbers in the wiki

keen flame
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Plutonium maths

topaz hedge
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@twin peak hey you got your turbofuel sorted out?

keen flame
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(None of these are counting power consumption for miners - add on about an extra 50GW of consumption for max resources)

vast jungle
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Phase 4 is "Assembly Director System" (1.5 Adaptive Control Units), "Magnetic Field Generator" (2.5 Versatile Framework), "Nuclear Pasta" (no Phase 3 stuff) and "Thermal Propulsion Rocket" (2.5 Modular Engines)

topaz hedge
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saw you posted and your capacity graph was flat

twin peak
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Its flat usually but every few hours there are tiny spikes

keen flame
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Unless my math is wrong (seeing a pretty significant discrepancy between my numbers and some of the others) Fertile Uranium seems to be next to useless, and the only viable option at all is basic plutonium recipes and max uranium. Resource costs are just much too high otherwise

twin peak
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Im working on a big project now so i cant tear it down and build again for a few days

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@topaz hedge

bleak coral
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y'all need to compare methodologies where you figured out the balance and see which one is right

oblique hollow
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25 raw Uranium and 50 waste plus 75 of both acids for 100 non-fissile and NO water? seems pretty alright

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instant plutonium cell would love that

bleak coral
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instant does have the bonus of simplifying the setup, so it doesn't need to be the best

oblique hollow
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i had the luck of unlocking instant as my first tier 8 roll

bleak coral
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unit should probably not kill your nitrogen/bauxite though, cause I'm not sure what's it's doing otherwise

oblique hollow
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heck, i have a SINGLE power plant, i run those recipes at 17% speed

bleak coral
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and I have no fucking clue what to make of fertile, feels like it should be the max power one, but the numbers are weird

keen flame
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the discrepancy in numbers might be if somenoe else was using regular uranium recipes - I think it theoretically could increase the usefulness of fertile to do so. I might do some additional math that way

topaz hedge
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I wonder if our favorite fluid engineer sinks or Burns plutonium

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I have no idea, I'm going to leave the max nuclear stuff to the really smart people.

oblique hollow
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i have one powerplant, and i havent yet tried the new changes

keen flame
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I personally will be sinking it. My endgoal has always been "infinitely sustainable"

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you can build storage for 6000 hours of waste, but that's still not infinite - eventually it runs out

oblique hollow
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with the amount of waste i currently produce, giving it to a doggo and killing it is totally viable to me rn LMAO

topaz hedge
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6000 hours though. Also there are ways to.. clear that storage :3

supple mural
# keen flame

how to make power: sacrifice nitrogen from your cooling system and fused frame production lines

keen flame
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I'm a megabase builder though, so realistically I'd be generating, uh, a lot of waste

keen flame
bleak coral
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The solve is to make as much plutonium fuel rods as possible using fertile uranium while only making just enough uranium fuel rods to provide the waste. Since using uranium ore to make plutonium fuel rods provides way more power than using it to make uranium fuel rods.

topaz hedge
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Realistically and a bunch of hoping, within 6000 hours hopefully we will have 1.0

bleak coral
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I don't know what math does that, but that's the solve.

topaz hedge
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I hope so isn't that like 5 years?

supple mural
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the true solve is figuring out the balance between points production with nitrogen and power production with nitroggen

topaz hedge
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Oh no, it's 250 days. Lol

bleak coral
oblique hollow
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how 2 mek powr:
Col go vrm
Ful go vrrrm
Turboful go vroom
NUcler go krkrrkrrkrk
plutonum go KKRKRKRRRK critical health KRKR

bleak coral
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It's only not manageable if you leave the game running 24/7

keen flame
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plutonium being sinkable is an absolute godsend xD I'm just saying this is my personal philosophy

supple mural
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plutonium fuel rods make so little waste compared to U3 though

topaz hedge
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My plan is to only use the plutonium if I need the power while I build a bigger powerplant.

supple mural
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like, you get 1/10th the waste now, right?

bleak coral
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waste is gonna be an issue with dedicated servers, but that's for another day lol

keen flame
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1/minute

supple mural
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per uranium fuel rod, compared to update 3

topaz hedge
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1/min/reactor

bleak coral
supple mural
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(if processing into plutonium)

bleak coral
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it was 1/2 before this update, and this update cut it in half again

oblique hollow
topaz hedge
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Right now scim can delete all waste, although I have no idea if that functionally will change

supple mural
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i doubt scim will ever stop being able to delete waste

topaz hedge
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It used to not do it

bleak coral
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I mean if you wanna cheat, there's probably always gonna be a waste deletion mod

oblique hollow
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Waste be like:
"The power of SCIM compels me"

supple mural
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anything that can destroy a container and the goods in it will be able to remove waste

topaz hedge
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I asked mr anthor about it, he says he haven't decided if it will stay or not

bleak coral
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SCIM is so much more work than that

topaz hedge
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But before u4 scim wouldn't let you delete radioactive waste

bleak coral
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radioactive water? where have you been storing your waste sir?

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there are regulations!

topaz hedge
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So if that stays an option dedicated servers will be okay.

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The ocean is my garbage dump!

supple mural
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also speaking of online tools it would be nice if satisfactory tools treated reactors as the production building of nuclear waste

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so i could plug in a number for plutonium rods and have it done without needing to think about the waste of uranium

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like, c'mon, i dont wanna use my brain

keen flame
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That's a change I had to m,ake for my personal calculator, yep

bleak coral
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oh man we'll be so lazy when greeny finishes his power solver (solve for max MW/target MW), especially if he integrates waste into the logic

supple mural
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oh hes working on one of those? that's cool

keen flame
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speaking of, I posted it this morning, but if anyone wants, I can re-post my cal;culator. Needs a lot of formatting still, but it gives you guys another option to use

supple mural
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im willing to test it out

topaz hedge
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We're gonna forget how to play this game yeah

bleak coral
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yeah it's been on his todo list, think it has to wait until the big site backend overhaul

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he's doing stuff right now to help future development

keen flame
wind spade
supple mural
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ah, figures

wind spade
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it's eventually planned to support power production and stuff like that, which would bring the possibility to "produce" waste

supple mural
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would it be possible to manually add it as a recipe?

wind spade
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for now I'd have to manually hardcode the waste production there, which isn't something I want to do for obvious reasons

supple mural
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only would need to update it every time waste production changes

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which could be a pain

wind spade
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yeah, which would kinda break the point of having everything automated

topaz hedge
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It's okay greenie we have smart people in here will figure it out and then the rest of us will copy their plans lol.

wind spade
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and also I'd have to check it ingame, as waste production isn't in the exported data from devs

bleak coral
wind spade
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you can just add waste as input anyway 🤷‍♂️

bleak coral
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sadly that doesn't solve the fertile waste problem

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I'd have to do the math myself gasp 😛

supple mural
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using your brain to do math? gosh, what torment!

topaz hedge
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well, make us 3 plans lund, and we can pick what we want lol

bleak coral
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sure, I'll make one for turbofuel, biocoal, and uranium with no plutonium 😛

supple mural
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there's probably some simple algebra to figure it out

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possibly a little calculus mixed in there cuz its optimization

topaz hedge
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Speaking of stuff.. this happens everytime I start my game

unknown.png
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after that it levels off and it's good.

supple mural
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is that with nukes? might be water flowrate issues

topaz hedge
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to be honest, I've been kind of sus of water extractors when the game first loads for awhile.

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it is, but it's some kind of bug with extractors and the game first starting

wind spade
supple mural
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time to invest in power storage

topaz hedge
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See, it's fine now

unknown.png
supple mural
wind spade
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I haven't seen the recipes yet lol

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ah, so you can convert uranium to either uranium rods or directly to plutonium rods?

supple mural
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it uses uranium waste and uranium ore to make non-fissile uranium, which is used in plutonium

topaz hedge
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@supple mural I also have a coal plant, that's low on water, maybe our pipe master could take a look at it, but the way it's built, it's impossible for it to have any kind of manifold bug

wind spade
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and you're trying to figure out max power production?

supple mural
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that's the goal, yes

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of finding the proper balance

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someone probably already did it lel

wind spade
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hm... I really need to finish the big tools update so I can start working on power then

topaz hedge
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the only way that plant could be low on water is if the water extractors wern't running, and I think there's evidence here that the extractors don't start producing when the game is loaded. @oblique hollow Could you look into this maybe, I have a coal plant on the save I sent you a while back that's low, and I think my nuclear plant on the save I sent will do the same thing when the game is first loaded as well. #math-and-meta message

supple mural
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maybe it plays the spool-up animation every time?

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well, i say "animation", but all it does it take longer to start extracting the first time you utrn it on

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perhaps test it by loading up and checking their gui's to see if they're extracting

topaz hedge
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Maybe, I've been sus of them for awhile. I think my nuclear setup pretty much proves there's something going on with extractors and the game loading. It doesn't effect my nuclear setup after the first 30 seconds or so, but my coal plant never recovers from it. 1-3 plants of the 128 will always be low.

rose hill
#

Math help. So I'm making 72 screws a second. To find out the exact number a min. would I multiply by 60? Because if that's so. I would be making 4,320 a min. would this be corrent?

supple mural
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you are correct, but i do have a question

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how did you end up working in seconds?

fierce ruin
#

||gotta give some things a second chance||

supple mural
#

instabanned for puns

fierce ruin
#

||message redacted||

supple mural
#

🤔

rose hill
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lol

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what do you mean working in seconds?

supple mural
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well, everywhere in the game lists production rates in minutes

fierce ruin
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||yeah it's not exactly a minute detail||

supple mural
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i guess maybe you used the production time?

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but like, since everything is already in minutes its strange that you would have math using per second

rose hill
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yes the production time

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i mean you right lol

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also like your profile pic

supple mural
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why thank you

amber basin
#

am i doing well or wrong? it seems like that i am using only 90 from 120 limestones and what about 30? i can see that both of construction the limestone is like growing up

unknown.png
lavish river
#

i just finished to read the last hours of this thread. I'm asking, is there any supercomputer, IRL, can run the game with your insane nuclear power ? and is there enough ressources to justify this ?

amber basin
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or maybe should I change the timing for miner? I have no idea how to solve the problem 😦

supple mural
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underclock the miner to 75% or increase the clocks of the two constructors to 133.33%

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also, you don't need /60s if everything is /60s, just use /m

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or /min

somber flame
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make another constructor that runs at 67%

supple mural
#

oh that's also valid

amber basin
supple mural
#

60/45 =1.333

somber flame
#

also run a 134% you will get more

supple mural
#

desired input divided by input at 100% clock speed equals the clock speed necessary for that desired input

lavish river
#

3x constructors at 88%

supple mural
lavish river
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and miner at 99

supple mural
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one constructor at 266%

lavish river
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yeah

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downclock is better for early game because you need to save power

amber basin
amber basin
lavish river
amber basin
lavish river
#

sorry

supple mural
amber basin
lavish river
#

if you already have mk3 belt and some powershards, go overclock the miner first

supple mural
#

three constructors at 88% will be slightly less pwoer than two at 133%

twin peak
#

Damn i remember getting annoyed by concrete math when i started the gane cuz it wasnt a full number hehe

amber basin
#

one year later we checked our old save and we were like 'my god.. what we have done it before.. lets make new world'

supple mural
#

fun fact: if you want to have relatively efficient plutonium production without breaking the bank, it seems that running instant cell plus fuel rod will cost more aluminum than running fuel unit and normal encased cells, and net you fewer extra fuel rods

#

actually, that's probably in rowan's graph...

bleak coral
#

he didn't have any columns for unit and normal cell

supple mural
#

oh i see

bleak coral
#

he was missing 3 combinations: that one, fertile alone, and only fertile + unit

supple mural
#

but still, unit with normal cells gets you 50% more cells for 108 aluminum ingots (using recipes that minimize aluminum) while instant with normal rod costs you 128 aluminum and only gets you 33% more rods

glacial tinsel
#

its not 100% of the map, but ive decided on 50.4 uranium, 22.4 plutonium, and 240 assembly directors, which is pretty close

supple mural
#

careful, might change in the coming days before the 13th

glacial tinsel
#

i'll still be building it all by then anyway

bleak coral
#

and if it's more numbers stuff it won't be that big a deal anyway

#

I doubt they'll change the logistics

supple mural
#

numbers, at that size, could mean another belt of stuff :P

glacial tinsel
#

im grabbing the entire map anyway :P

supple mural
#

gobble gobble

glacial tinsel
#

also, im definitely skipping a step of getting enough power to turn on the uranium line

#

so idk how thats going to go but it'll be fun :D

supple mural
#

just turn on sections of the assembly line after some nukes are powered

bleak coral
#

lots of fuel/turbofuel and/or lots of batteries

#

batteries add an interesting dimension to big power upgrades

supple mural
#

batteries just make things easier

#

provided you have the patience to charge them

bleak coral
#

power storages I mean, dammit it's gonna be hard to fight that one

glacial tinsel
#

it'll take 52kMW to run the nuclear + plutonium production

bleak coral
#

it's extractors vs pumps all over again, except I'm one of the confused ones this time

fierce ruin
#

52GW?

supple mural
#

guys look at my power storage its so neat

duracell-c-batteries-004133313848-e1_1000.webp
glacial tinsel
#

is GW 1000 MW or 1024?

supple mural
#

wut

bleak coral
#

depends if you ask the engineering or marketing department, and what marketing is marketing

supple mural
#

no, that would be Gibiwatt

fierce ruin
#

LUL marketing

supple mural
#

giga is 1000

glacial tinsel
#

oh, im getting it confused with computers arent it

supple mural
#

yes

glacial tinsel
#

that feel when you know to many random things

bleak coral
#

kilobyte = 1024 bytes fight me ✊

#

byte isn't an SI unit dammit

supple mural
#

a Gibiwatt would actually be 1074 Megawatts

fierce ruin
bleak coral
#

that's not a real prefix

#

certainly not an SI one

fierce ruin
#

depends who you ask?

supple mural
#

then why does windows measure my disk size in Gibibytes? 🤔

bleak coral
#

it doesn't, it measures it gigabytes, as a good number of computer engineers have defined a gibabytes for decades

glacial tinsel
#

back on topic, i'll probably take the detour and do turbofuel

bleak coral
#

full turbofuel or turbofuel + power storage?

glacial tinsel
#

idk, depends on how much turbofuel i get out of the southeast oil

bleak coral
#

cause 95GW of turbofuel is a lot of generators, it's like 400-something plus 4 lines of 600 turbofuel

glacial tinsel
#

but that will let me play with the new diluted fuel blender a bit before i set it up in my factory

bleak coral
#

true

#

and it's probably good to turn on at least some of as you go, so the whole system isn't warming up at once

glacial tinsel
#

i got like 6 minutes before my train comes back, idk what to do lol

bleak coral
supple mural
#

mmm tasty

glacial tinsel
#

i started in the southern grass plains, but im building my nuclear plant in the ocean north of the northwest desert

#

its a bit of a trip

deep root
#

mk5 belt limit is "780" really it gets 750 reliably right?

vernal smelt
#

i got 120 coal and 120 iron, whats the best steel setup

supple mural
#

solid steel

bleak coral
supple mural
#

780 has always been 780 for me

#

but i have good fps

deep root
#

Oh, okay that raises another question. Whose FPS...Host only, or if client is looking at it does it slow down/speed up?

glacial tinsel
#

define good fps

bleak coral
#

both good questions that I don't have answers to

supple mural
#

100+ fps

fierce ruin
#

12+ fps

supple mural
#

also since the host is the boss in all things, its probably the host's fps that determines it

deep root
#

Does it transport 780 at 60fps?

glacial tinsel
#

im getting 90 right now

bleak coral
#

I'm getting 0 (game is closed)

supple mural
#

har har

supple mural
glacial tinsel
#

just look at the ground

#

and then it will work perfectly but you cant see it

bleak coral
#

look away from you beautiful creation, it can not achieve it's full greatness under your overbeaing eye

deep root
#

LOL, so if I'm not next to the belts they will get 780?

supple mural
#

depends

glacial tinsel
#

the more STUFF the game has to render the lower your fps

#

so if you are looking at all your base, it will go down

fierce ruin
#

Schrödinger's belts

frosty owl
bleak coral
#

the more stuff the game has to calculate, the lower the fps too
I load into kibitz save and it's still like 20-30fps away from everything

deep root
#

Is there a minimum for the belts?

frosty owl
#

Is there a minimum for FPS?

supple mural
#

i think youre worrying about this way too much

#

just go with 600 so it matches a mk.3 normal node

bleak coral
deep root
#

I'm trying to bring 2 pure sulfur nodes by train to the northern oil field in order to make turbofuel...I want to do it realiably with the maximum amount of sulfur 🙂

fierce ruin
supple mural
#

exactly

glacial tinsel
#

im setting up my pure iron refineries in sets of 12, which spits of 780 iron

bleak coral
#

run satisfactory on an xbox 360 challenge: you win if you get 1 FPS

deep root
#

Which means I need to calculate the belt speed and subtract the train loading time to determine my actual per minute sulfur rate 🙂

frosty owl
supple mural
#

if you have trouble with throughput add another train

deep root
#

25 second load/unload time actually reduced 780 in/out

supple mural
#

it has two ports

#

you basically need one cargo wagon for every belt

frosty owl
#

Stay below 1000/min per freight and you won't have to bother with tight timings

deep root
#

So, split a 780 belt into 2 inputs/outputs?

supple mural
#

so you send a 780 into an ISC and two 780's into the freight platform from the ISC

#

do the oppposite on the unloading side

frosty owl
#

Feed 780 into a ISC, feed both outputs of the ISC to a freight station. The longer the single full mk5 segment, the more issues you'll probably have

deep root
#

But the 25 second stop to the freight platform reduces that 780 somewhere

supple mural
#

that's why you use the ISC as a buffer

#

it has 1560 to the station

frosty owl
deep root
#

It's that 25 of no input/output though. Am I thinking too much into it? Will it ony have an effect on the first trip, then every other trip will be 780?

#

Because of the dual input/output

bleak coral
#

it will have an effect on no trip, during that time the buffer fills, and then the output is faster than the input so it empties everything it got during the stop

deep root
#

Oh yeah...

supple mural
#

i can't really explain it well with words, but if you have a buffer that has 780 in, and it has 1560 out, then that means while your train is loading, (or, not accepting items into the freight platform's internal buffer) , it is filling up, then (here's the magic part) when your platform is not loading a train, it will fill at 1560 items/min, meaning in the 30 seconds after its done loading a train it will make up for the 30 seconds the platform was not accepting items

bleak coral
#

as long as the throughput needed is under 1560 you're fine if you use a buffer, cause it'll empty faster than it fills

#

realistically it's hard to get a trip short enough to get anywhere close to 1560 throughput anyway

deep root
#

And if I put the ISC immediately after the miner, I will almost always have 780 because my FPS won't kill the belt limit 🙂

supple mural
#

basically

bleak coral
#

I don't get how the ISC helps with that

supple mural
#

like a splitter

deep root
#

I assume I'll need 2-4 freight platforms because I want to take the 2 pure sulfurs from the desert to the northern oil field in 1 train

bleak coral
#

ISCs don't act like splitters, and why wouldn't you just use a splitter?

supple mural
#

youd only need two freight platofrms at each station if the round trip is under like 6 minutes or something

deep root
#

fps changes belt limit, so putting an isc after the miner will reduce that first single belt, and the 2 belts going out will surely be above 780

supple mural
#

just have better fps

frosty owl
deep root
bleak coral
#

and the 9 item buffer in a splitter isn't big enough?

supple mural
frosty owl
#

A 1 second lag on mk5 is more then 10 items, so no

bleak coral
#

fair enough

deep root
#

Oh yeah, corner to corner is 8 min round trip

frosty owl
#

Also, could be full already for whatever reason

supple mural
deep root
#

Wiki says corner to corner is ~8min with 0 freight round trip

#

or ~9 on auto

supple mural
#

🤔

bleak coral
#

flat or with hills? I assume flat

deep root
#

I can fill 1 freight in ~6 mins, so 2 freights on each station splitting the load evenly I think it could work

#

I assume wiki measured on flat ground

supple mural
#

if the wiki did measure on flat ground, id expect the average speed of the 0, 1, and 2 wagon tests at least to be 120

deep root
#

Mine will have a spiral to a flat travel platform both up and down at load/unload

bleak coral
#

where's the wiki say that?

supple mural
fierce ruin
#

shouldn't cargo only change accel. on flat ground

supple mural
#

maybe its because the 50 seconds of unloading/loading are including in the average speed calculations

deep root
#

It should be

bleak coral
#

it's also because the train starts slowing down sooner with more cars because it gets to the other side faster

deep root
#

Also, the time it takes to stop and go the other direction

bleak coral
#

cause it starts just a little bit closer

deep root
#

I'll go with 3 freight platforms to be safe

supple mural
bleak coral
#

faster was the wrong word

supple mural
#

if anything its slower

#

itll need more time to break though, because it has more momentum

bleak coral
#

I can picture it in my head, but it's hard to put into words

deep root
#

Momentum is probably what you are thinking of

#

Screw it...I'll just use drones

supple mural
#

but... batteries

bleak coral
#

freight cars weight only matters on hills, they don't affect acceleration

supple mural
#

and youll need like three drone platforms at both ends

bleak coral
#

the length difference is the only thing affecting the average time

supple mural
fierce ruin
#

that's the same thing

supple mural
#

the wagons have their own brakes

deep root
#

I mean, it isn't

supple mural
#

so yes, deceleration is just backwards acceleration, but when dealing with things that have a clear front and back, it makes sense to label the difference

fierce ruin
#

deceleration is a colloquial term for negative acceleration

deep root
#

I'm so behind on automating Tier 5/6 items 😦 I rushed to blenders to be able to make easy turbofuel

supple mural
#

but the cargo wagons have brakes, they dont have motors

#

meaning they can assist in deceleration but not in acceleration

deep root
supple mural
#

i havent tested to see if the wagon's brakes do anything, mind you

#

but acceleration is determined by loco:wagon ratio

#

in fact, that difference in acceleration is exactly why going up a slope slows down something with a lower loco:wagon ratio

bleak coral
supple mural
#

that's possible

fierce ruin
#

"Test until your eyes bleed"
-LGIO

deep root
#

Either way, my issue is "solved" 🙂 thanks all

deep root
#

Hang on...1 blender can provide enough turbofuel for 10 generators?!

supple mural
#

yes

deep root
#

That is AMAZING lol

supple mural
#

you do feed it 6.25 generators worth of fuel though

#

i think i might be doing my math wrong cuz the numbers are saying that you actually are giving it 8.125 generator's worht of fuel

#

i missed the coke in the first calculation

deep root
#

You are using the HOR to determine the amount there?

supple mural
#

1 HOR = 2 fuel

deep root
#

Meh...I'll accept the trade off

supple mural
#

i must be doing something wrong with my math though

#

this just seems wrong

deep root
#

4770 fuel

#

Sorry ignore that

#

10:6 HOR:TF

noble linden
#

Sry HOR?

deep root
#

Heavy Oil Residue

supple mural
#

heavy oil residue

fierce ruin
#

Light oil residue

noble linden
#

I got it like a second before 😂

supple mural
deep root
#

Sorry, 6:6 HoR:TF

#

So 12:6 F:TF

supple mural
#

no it's 11:6 HOR:TF

#

the 2 fuel is 4 HOR, and the coke is 1 HOR

#

so in total it's eleven to six

deep root
#

4 HOR is 8 fuel...

supple mural
#

oh

deep root
#

Other way around

supple mural
#

i seem to have gotten something backwards

#

brain fard

#

the numbers i was meaning to say were 12 fuel to 6 turbofuel

deep root
#

So that's 1:1.5 F:TF generator

#

You get 150% more power by converting to TF

supple mural
#

12/12 : 6/4.5 = 1:1.333

#

33% more power

deep root
#

oh shit yeah I did my math wrong that time

noble linden
#

Anyone done the math on the difference in production between the traditional TF setup (packing/unpacking water and fuel) and the blender?

deep root
#

Which part of the math?

supple mural
#

diluted fuel is energy cheaper

deep root
#

More oil but less sulfur and 0 coal...It's a win win

fierce ruin
#

and mind cheaper

bleak coral
#

So wait does diluted fuel get you more power as just fuel than blended turbo fuel?

supple mural
#

turbo blend fuel is maybe cheaper in terms of energy needed

bleak coral
#

Using the same amount of oil?

supple mural
#

but its a lot closer than the "wow turbofuel is so gooood" would make you think

noble linden
bleak coral
#

gonna check the numbers from 600 oil real quick

supple mural
#

blenders are more energy efficient than refineries

bleak coral
#

diluted fuel in blenders is amazing

deep root
#

Yes it is

supple mural
#

45/min in a blender for 75MW vs 18.75 in a refinery for 30MW

fierce ruin
supple mural
#

even if turbofuel in a blender is only more energy efficient by like 4%

#

per turbofuel created

#

the diluted fuel difference is greater

noble linden
#

Yea but you can turn all your oil into fuel and then dilute it with refineries right? And not needing coke for the refinery TF fuel now, I feel like you should net more TF...

supple mural
#

oil -> HOR -> diluted fuel

noble linden
#

Oil to hor to diluted fuel*

fierce ruin
#

per oil maybe, but we're maxing on sulfur with blended

supple mural
#

refinery recipe is better with oil

deep root
#

The reduction of sulfur in the blended TF recipe makes it worth it

#

We need sulfur for batteries

noble linden
#

Yea fair

fierce ruin
#

assault and batteries

bleak coral
#

I always knew that was the tradeoff: more oil for less sulfur

supple mural
#

12F:6TF in the blender vs 6F:5TF in the refinery

deep root
#

We have WAY more oil than we will use, but the sulfur is a HUGE limiting factor

bleak coral
#

just was curious if maybe you weren't better off with just doing diluted fuel straight and skipping the sulfur entirely

supple mural
#

4 sulfur to 5 turbofuel in the refinery, 3 to 6 in the blender

deep root
#

When do you skip sulfur?

#

OH!

bleak coral
#

as in I was curious if it was close eneough energy-wise to just making diluted fuel out of the same amount of oil

deep root
#

I misread that

noble linden
#

I think he means just using fuel, not tf

fierce ruin
supple mural
#

the refinery recipe increases power yield be fuel by 222%

#

or should i say 122%?

#

it multiplies the output by 2.22

iron prairie
deep root
#

122% MORE but 222% INCREASE 🙂

fierce ruin
#

800/12=66.66666 DF gens vs 400/4.5 = 88.8888 blended TF gens

supple mural
#

where are those numbers from?

iron prairie
bleak coral
#

It's not terribly far off, but it is a net gain.
600 oil does:
800 blend TF with a net power of about 24GW
1333.33 normal TF with a net power of about 40GW
1600 diluted fuel with a net power of about 18GW

supple mural
#

the refinery nets you 66% more turbofuel per fuel input

deep root
#

Almost double output with reg TF

supple mural
#

but by adding like a lot more sulfur

iron prairie
#

Classic turbofuel adds about 38% more energy versus fuel + compacted coal, whereas turbo blend fuel adds about 26% more energy versus fuel + compacted coal.

deep root
#

But I need my sulfur for batteries..And nuclear is "clean" now so yeah 🙂

supple mural
#

60% more sulfur for 66% more turbofuel

#

unless i did something wrong there

iron prairie
# supple mural 60% more sulfur for 66% more turbofuel

One thing to account for is that classic turbofuel uses way less fuel. What's important isn't synthesizing X turbofuel per input resource. It's getting X additional energy out of making the turbofuel per input resource.

supple mural
#

youre getting to levels that are too complex for my peanut brain

deep root
#

Seriously...I can't think that gud!

supple mural
#

but that isnt to say i dont understand a little bit

#

youre basically doing a sum of input energy vs output energy and the cost of synthesis?

fierce ruin
keen flame
#

@iron prairie seems to work, lemme look

iron prairie
#

Sort of. It involves three factors:

  1. The raw energy content of turbofuel.
  2. The extra cost required in synthesizing the turbofuel.
  3. The opportunity cost incurred by not being able to burn the fuel, coal and sulfur* directly.

*I accounted for this as "how much extra energy do you get by adding 1 sulfur to 1 coal to make, and burn, compacted coal".

bleak coral
#

Which is why you might use a weaker recipe as compared by how much energy is gained from the process

supple mural
#

i would like to see a calc for how much nuclear energy you lose by making turbofuel with sulfur

iron prairie
#

I'm not sure I'm following you @bleak coral . If you're saying "turbo blend fuel is actually an OK choice", I fully agree, because it is more sulfur-efficient.

bleak coral
#

Yeah that's all I'm trying to say.

supple mural
#

just reduce blend fuel cost by one or two HOR and itll kick the refinery's butt

bleak coral
#

I don't think it needs to, I think it's in a good place.

iron prairie
#

I like the current balance, really.

deep root
#

I'm sure it isn't meant to replace it

bleak coral
#

More oil for less sulfur is an interesting choice. Just straight better is boring.

keen flame
#

this sheet is hurting my brain because the formatting sucks, but otherwise it works (not your fault, dropbox just isn't playing nice)

supple mural
#

understandable

deep root
#

It's meant to, like Lund said, form a trade off

bleak coral
#

As opposed to fertile uranium which I think is getting everything from disdain to ❓❓❓

supple mural
#

btw @keen flame i did some math

keen flame
#

@iron prairie seems your numbers are matching mine now, what was the error earlier?

#

oh cool, seems interesting. I skipped a couple of the combinations to save on time

supple mural
#

also, one uranium waste is equal to .91 non-fissile uranium when using fertile uranium, if that's relevant for anything

#

for calculating the effectiveness of instant cell vs. pellets to cell

keen flame
#

that's useful, but that changes dramatically based on which uranium recpes you use (though I assume you'd be using infused/unit)

#

I was running some preliminary numbers earlier and fertile only gets worse if you use worse uranium recipes

supple mural
#

i used the best uranium recipes

bleak coral
#

weird, would think it's the opposite

supple mural
#

unit and infused

bleak coral
#

my assumption would be that the worse uranium to uranium waste conversion the better fertile would look

supple mural
#

infused saves sulfur, so its a no brainer

keen flame
bleak coral
supple mural
#

nuclear fuel unit uses quartz but still, sulfur is saved by way of needing less acid for cells

bleak coral
#

I was hoping they'd change it enough to fit in a blender

supple mural
#

it wouldnt work

keen flame
#

in my opinion, the only viable option right now is Max uranium, and default plutonium recipes to either sink or burn plutonium

iron prairie
#

@keen flame I think the goof was overestimating the number of uranium rods available w/ fertile uranium in use.

Anyways, the most important bit of my calculations is probably "marginal weighted resources per marginal GW" (marginal WR/P), though in some cases, I calculated that as an absolute.

Key absolute WR/P values:

Coal: 506.15
Fuel: 201.26
Turbofuel: 429.60
Turbo Blend Fuel: 316.74

All-Defaults Uranium Only: 93.71
All-Defaults Uranium + Rod Disposal: 217.09
All-Defaults Uranium + Plutonium: 133.233
bleak coral
keen flame
#

everything else is too expensive in terms of other resources, especially nitrogen

supple mural
iron prairie
#

My weighting scheme was pretty simple: for any resource X, weight was "total map iron / total map X".

keen flame
supple mural
#

instant cell seems kinda bad though, it uses so much aluminum

#

less nitrogen than plutonium unit though

bleak coral
#

it might be a convenience recipe, skipping a step

#

I'd be ok with that

#

not every recipe needs it's strength to be resource efficiency

iron prairie
#

For example, the map has 11700 crude oil and 70380 iron, so crude oil got a weighting of 70380/11700 = 6.015

keen flame
#

lemme post this again:

unknown.png
#

switching to instant is the least bad option - but it uses a lot more aluminum and nitrogen

supple mural
#

there's more iron than limestone?

keen flame
#

iron is the largest resource, yep! limestone is the most "plentiful" though because it's used for so few recipes

supple mural
#

i c

bleak coral
#

you're just wasting uranium

supple mural
#

in contrast, you might want to be inefficient with plutonium, so you get as little waste from your uranium as possible

keen flame
#

Considering that you only get maximum an extra 50GW, that's not enough of an increase to be worth the huge increase in resource consumption imo. At first glance, plutonium units is pretty good (1100 GW is sizeable), but at that point it's burning almost all of your nitrogen and doesn';t leave enough left for many other endgame production lines. Not to mention 2/3's of your bauxite

keen flame
iron prairie
#

As to some key marginal WR/P ratios:

Nuclear fuel units (versus all-defaults uranium only): 22.36
Max uranium (versus nuclear fuel units): 131.13

Max uranium + defaults plutonium (versus max uranium only): 218.44
Plutonium fuel units (versus default plutonium): 100.74
supple mural
#

still generates quite the chunk of power

iron prairie
#

... That plutonium fuel units comes out fairly nice by my calculations suggests my weighting may not have been the greatest. It was a pretty simplistic calculation.

bleak coral
#

my brain keeps going to maybe the alts could be good on smaller setups where the extra resources aren't as big a deal and you'll still have plenty for your goals

#

but bringing in extra uranium is probably easier than bringing in even more of like 4x other resource types

supple mural
#

fertile uranium is more efficient for plutonium production than not using it, i think, with nitrogen, at least

iron prairie
#

The problem with that is that the only reason to ever use more advanced plutonium processing is to squeeze out just a bit more power.

#

Using default plutonium recipes minimizes the amount of plutonium waste generated, after all.

supple mural
#

plutonium rods got buffed though

keen flame
bleak coral
keen flame
#

but for megafactories, they're complete non-options imo

bleak coral
#

they're viable, but probably not worth it compared to just increasing your uranium input

iron prairie
#

OK: question here. Why is plutonium fuel units bad?

bleak coral
#

the only one that'd be worth it regardless of cost IMO is instant, cause it skips a step

#

that's a bonus logistics thing that is worth something

iron prairie
#

It uses only a bit more nitrogen, and while a decent chunk more bauxite is used, it's not an extreme amount.

#

What is ridiculous is the amount of nitrogen used for making plutonium rods in the first place.

keen flame
deep root
keen flame
#

plutonium units aren't that bad on they're own tbh - they're bad as a product of being the next step in an already bad chain of options

bleak coral
#

how much is nitrogen used outside of plutonium? like a lot right?

supple mural
#

plutonium units are better than instant cell in terms of aluminum

iron prairie
#

End-game stuff uses a ton of nitrogen.

#

Instant cells are just outright trash.

keen flame
#

plut. units uses almost 2/3 of your bauxite and a third of your oil - that's pretty bad

supple mural
keen flame
#

I would. they're pretty bad

supple mural
#

their nitrogen use is less than plutonium unit

keen flame
#

it jumps your bauxite and nitrogen usage dramatically for a very marginal power increase

bleak coral
#

I do think it's current numbers are a mistake, that or the patch notes were wrong

#

they didn't mention the cost differences, and even claim that the nitrogen usage was lowered

#

it's the same though

keen flame
#

Oh, I think my "net power" numbers are actually a bit off, thinking about it. I'll double check my numbers later

iron prairie
#

Double-check? I'm seeing plutonium units as using 2102 bauxite, 574 oil and 6653 nitrogen, versus 605/309/6048 for max uranium + defaults plutonium.

keen flame
#

I haven't done the math yet on plut. units without instant cells

#

so I don't have any numbers for that

supple mural
#

interestingly, if you use instant and dont use unit, your nitrogen is worht less power

#

so i take that back, instant cell is trash

#

30 nitrogen per cell if you dont use unit

iron prairie
#

Plutonium units w/out instant cells is pretty decent IMO.
Instant cells are a sick, sick joke.

bleak coral
supple mural
#

yeah, unit on its own (with plut pellet chain) is cheaper than instant plus normal rod

bleak coral
#

Reduced Nitrogen Use

#

yeah I wish lol

keen flame
#

^ they reduced it

bleak coral
#

they didn't it's the same 1:1

keen flame
#

It no longer costs more than is on the map

bleak coral
#

old recipe used 25 to make 25 cells, new one uses 20 to make 20

inland pike
#

wheres the best place to attempt to ask about how i can fix my aluminum refineries from complaining

bleak coral
iron prairie
#

Nitrogen has gone way up for everything not fertile uranium.

deep root
supple mural
#

so with fertile, you lose 90GJ if you use uranium alts, and get back like 10GJ by using the normal plutonium recipes

iron prairie
#

Fertile uranium is now physically possible to max, but that's the only good news.

inland pike
supple mural
#

cuz non-fissile is worth 10 and change GJ each with no alts for plut rods

#

one uranium is 18GJ with the alts

#

spending five uranium to make twenty non-fissile is just barely not losing you energy if you dont max the plutonium

#

if you're using the max plutonium alts, you get back more than double the energy in terms of uranium ore invested

keen flame
#

but that's about it. the balance is still...pretty horrific

supple mural
#

it is disappointing that max uranium makes it not possible to max your points

iron prairie
#

Negative on that. You still have to make the plutonium rods, and that costs 6048 nitrogen when maxing uranium.
Negative on that: I like tradeoffs.

#

(i.e. it shouldn't be trivial to max power and max production: there should be painful decisions involved IMO)

bleak coral
#

I'm praying that both plutonium cell recipes having their costs about doubled is a mistake.

iron prairie
#

Right now, IMO, the most viable setup is uranium without touching anything that looks even remotely trans-uranic.

supple mural
#

but waste tho

iron prairie
#

Still less awful than 6048 nitrogen/minute!

bleak coral
#

I don't know, for a bunch of nitrogen you reduce your waste to 2.5% of what it was

keen flame
#

I said "viable" I didn't say good XD

bleak coral
#

that's really good

supple mural
#

you are kinda required to make plutonium to not have thousands of waste per minute

keen flame
#

it still uses far too much nitrogen. we agree on that

bleak coral
#

you can't get that much reduction for peanuts, it's got to have some sort of hefty cost

#

or it has to not reduce waste as much

keen flame
bleak coral
#

IMO if their goal was to tempt people sinking plutonium into using plutonium by reducing waste more, I think that's a mistake

#

it'd be better to tempt them with more power

keen flame
#

max uranium is producing over 5k waste/minute. that fills an industrial storage container in...under 5 minutes. in a single game session, you'd fill easily several dozen containers

keen flame
supple mural
#

so, since the fertile uranium recipe is more efficient with nitric acid in terms of per non-fissile produced, would that make it superior to do non-fissile?

#

if you want energy without breaking the aluminum bank

keen flame
#

the issue isn't the balance between plutonium and uranium - it's the resource costs associated with plutonium in the first place

supple mural
#

with fertile, you can get 11% more from your uranium...

keen flame
#

It should be a hard choice - but right now it's a non-choice because the waste production is so high otherwise

supple mural
#

up to 100% more from your uranium ore

keen flame
iron prairie
#

It's an easy choice right now, IMO.
Just don't use nuclear power.

bleak coral
#

I think the choice they're going for is whether to sink it or not and how much extra waste do you want for how much extra power. I don't think they want plain uranium to be viable outside small setups.

keen flame
keen flame
#

right now I'm thinknig it's probably better to just go back to my fuel only setup

supple mural
keen flame
supple mural
#

by my calcs you still get more energy per uranium ore

#

it also costs less nitric acid per non-fissile

iron prairie
#

Compared to "all other alts", fertile generates less net power (940 GW versus 1064 GW) for.... actually less resources.

supple mural
#

hm, i was not looking at it in comparison to other recipes

#

just fertile vs the regular one

glacial tinsel
#

fertile is only worth it if you want max plutonium waste

bleak coral
#

one of y'all should probably make a new feedback post on the QA site, cause all this is basically shouting into the void

supple mural
#

i guess the extra 10% gets toasted by the particle accelerators needed to make the plutonium

keen flame
iron prairie
#

I view the intent of fertile as "one last bit of extra power for a significant increase in plutonium waste", and when you ignore the secondary resources, it actually accomplishes that.

@bleak coral I am doing that right now.

keen flame
#

er, less than using non-fissile and pellets. at least with my test doing fertile and instantcells

iron prairie
#

I only ever calculated fertile vs. all other alts.

#

(i.e. literally all alts vs. all non-fertile alts)

bleak coral
keen flame
#

me and sms have been crossposting the entire time.. XD

supple mural
#

plutonium is just bad kek

keen flame
#

(since update 4 release)

bleak coral
#

I still demand answers for the lying bastard patch notes 😛

supple mural
#

like, would they at least increase the point value of the rods to be worth sinking?

#

cuz they cost so much aluminum and such?

keen flame
bleak coral
#

I know, I'm just trying to be silly

glacial tinsel
#

i dont think they should be worth enough points to incentivise you to sink, the incentive is already there, clean nuclear

bleak coral
#

I feel like it should be a "waste repulsives me physically" choice, but you probably want to actually burn the rods

supple mural
#

yeah

#

i do want to burn em

#

waste isnt a problem when i have a quarter of the map full of impure nodes to the south

#

but if yall gonna complain about pressure motors, look at this:

unknown.png
bleak coral
supple mural
#

you lose 50% of your points at least when making plutonium units

#

cringe

bleak coral
#

lol now I'm thinking what would be needed for automated hoverpack. dark matter?

supple mural
#

not worth sinking when i can invest fewer overall resources into power by burning it instead of sinking it, cuz ill need less uranium.

#

i can then put those resources towards parts that actually make good points

keen flame
#

I mean, that's why my plan for sinking was just using the most basic plutonium recipes. You're not sinking them for points

supple mural
#

i just want to reprocess so i get moar power (and less waste too)

#

but like, if it costs that much to make max rods...

#

increase their point value too or something

iron prairie
keen flame
#

👌

supple mural
#

nitric acid has a pretty big cost, four gas to once acid is kinda wacko

#

but wow, its pretty crazy how uranium plus plutonium cant even do 50% better than fuel in terms of input resources

keen flame
#

tbh I think nitric acid is the largest culprit here. If it was 1:1 like sulfuric acid is then it would solve most of the issues here. (still some other issues, but that would be a huge start)

bleak coral
#

What if non-fissile uranium produced nitrogen as its waste product instead of water?

#

Would still make you go back more than one step to recycle it, but would reduce the raw nitrogen going in

keen flame
#

that was one of the things SMS suggested, I think it's one of the possible solutions, but it would have to be a pretty substantial amount recycled to actually be worth it

topaz hedge
#

Well, someone's really upset with nuclear power.

fierce ruin
#

nuclear is looking wolfgrim

supple mural
#

if your power generation hogs the resources that you would otherwise be using to consume that power...

topaz hedge
#

I dunno, it doesn't seem that way to me. I'm pretty sure you can get enough power to max whatever kind of production you want without killing all the resourses you'd need for that line.

#

just don't try to max power while trying to max production. it's a choice. It does feel like the plutonium alts could be better though..

keen flame
#

the problem is that it should be a choice, but isn't right now. the resource usage is too skewed

#

though I'm also of the mind that if you're reaching so deep into endgame as to use the entire map's resources, you should be able to just due to the sheer scale of such a project

bleak coral
#

I do worry that a lot of this analysis is based on a niche goal: maxing nuclear power. There's really hardly anyone who is actually going to do that. Sure it's costly, but you don't need to max nuclear power to get value from it.

keen flame
#

we're looking at this as megabase builders, sure, but the problem is still present for anyone who's building a smaller base. Someone with only one uranium node is also only going to have one nitrogen node, etc

#

And as was said above - maxing power is useless if you don't have any resources left to actually use that power

topaz hedge
#

that's what I'm saying. anything around 400-500 gw should be able to max any single production line. and that should be doable without running out of resourses that you'd use in nuclear

#

when people max nuclear power, that's about all they do on that save.

keen flame
#

400-500 isn't enough any more with particle accelerators and all of the new recipes

topaz hedge
#

the save is pretty much toast after maxing nuclear, that was true for U3

keen flame
#

that's not something I've ever heard of before

topaz hedge
#

askk klepdar how well his save worked after he maxed nuclear. there was no way you were building any kind of megafactory on that save. it BARELY loaded as is.

keen flame
#

that's something they're trying to fix with the engine updates...

#

But I've never heard of anyone giving up after setting up max power

topaz hedge
#

I've only seen/talked to like 2 people who've done max power. and one person who's done max turbomotors. their saves were at the point of barely playable, to unplayable.

#

So maybe I have limited knowledge on that subject. I could be biased because I just finished my clean nuclear setup, and fixed it after the update tbh. lol

#

if plutonium isn't worth burining, prehaps the change they should've made was make it twice as energetic as uranium, and only cost 1/3 - 1/2 as much rather than outright doubling the cost of one rod

supple mural
#

didnt they quadruple the cost of rods?

topaz hedge
#

eh, yeah they did. I was making 9 and now I can only make 2.25 :/

#

but either way, my math is wrong but my opinion is still valid xD

supple mural
#

correct

#

maybe im wrong, but did max nuclear in U3 cut into max turbo motors?

#

because i dont think it did...

topaz hedge
#

I'm not sure, I don't think so, game limitations aside, I don't think U3 nuclear used any aluminum.

supple mural
#

it did not

topaz hedge
#

then no

supple mural
#

i did use up a lot of the quartz on the map, but that was mostly for silica circuit boards and aluminum production

#

so nuclear fuel units would have had a lot if i didnt do silicone circuit board

topaz hedge
#

people who went for max turbomotors didn't bother with max power, people who went for max power didn't bother with turbomotors >.>

supple mural
#

and i remember being able to only use copper and iron nodes in the dune desert to get all i needed for max turbo motors

#

which meant plenty left over

topaz hedge
#

Yeah. I think nuclear used quartz in U3 but it wasen't enough to affect turbomotor production

supple mural
#

so that's where im coming from when i say "I dont think it should cut into end-game production"

#

because it didnt in the past

tardy slate
#

whats an optimal amount of HMFs to produce per minute

#

for personal use

supple mural
#

5 works for me

#

just go off exploring and come back to a full bin

topaz hedge
#

for personal... probably just one machine making them

keen flame
supple mural
#

5/min is two manufacturers

frozen garnet
#

Im making a factory that has an input of 4,500/minute of raw iron. What ratio of plate to rods do i need to have it must useful?

supple mural
#

twice as many rod constructors as plate constructors

#

that would be the perfect ratio for modular frame's default recipe

frozen garnet
#

Rods are used a lot more than plates, correct?

supple mural
#

although i am wondering if youre at and end-game phase or not

wind spade
supple mural
#

because 4500/min is a lot...

#

also greeny is correct

tardy slate
#

whats the turbo fuel per minute in exp in a fuel generator

supple mural
#

if you're end game, the best use would be motors or electromagnetic control rods

frozen garnet
#

true. it is alot, i have 6 Pure nodes slightly overclocked feeding into my "Foundry" base that is smelting it all and doing basic refining. belt limit is my bottle neck atm XD

supple mural
tardy slate
#

thanks

supple mural
#

because the most effective strat would be to maximize whatever you need to progress to the next tier

frozen garnet
#

not quite nuclear yet, i'm not sure how i wanna handle the waste yet as that file is not eperimental

tardy slate
#

which recipe would be better for a turbo fuel plant on the nothern coast would it be the blender turbo fuel recipe due to sulfur efficency?

supple mural
#

stators and motors are pretty important, so if you maximize those youll probably be good

#

that would be lots of ironwire and steel tubing

supple mural
swift robin
#

so i was going to skip fuel power and go str8 to nuclear buuut turns out turbofuel power is a lot less work than 200 more coal plants sooo fuel power it is lol

verbal hemlock
#

I'm starting to want to approach this game Factorio style. lol

#

Get certain areas make certain stuff and 1 of them going to a Mall.

#

like.. all Iron Ores go some area, then they are distributed to where they are needed and stuff

wind spade
#

even better approach is for every factory to make it's own ingots

verbal hemlock
#

yeah.. and I might go for.. "what do i need?" Then make from that end product backwards.

#

this would avoid the spaghetti mess sometimes.. but manifolds are nice looking tho.

vast jungle
bleak coral
#

something to consider if you're going to separate/centralize factories is to keep an eye on item bandwidth compression/expansion e.g. caterium ingots compresses the expansion cause it needs more ore than it makes ingots but pure iron ingot expands the bandwidth cause it does the opposite.

#

The idea being it's easier to transport less items across long distances.

tiny sentinel
#

does anyone have a clean layout for 300 crude oil into rubber and plastic and empty canisters? I'm going to start oil processing soon and the setup I'm getting out of the Tools website seems a bit overwhelming. I'm an absolute noob to oil and I know I could go with standard recipes to make everything simpler, but I have access to alternate recipes and they're clearly more efficient. Here is the production chain I was looking at. https://u4.satisfactorytools.com/production?share=RCzq7WzF3yK0IUzCNW4G

Satisfactory Tools

A collection of powerful tools for planning and building the perfect base. Calculate your production or consumption, browse items, buildings, and schematics and share your builds with others!

#

(I'm looking to get some empty cans out of it for my liquid biofuel processing)

oblique hollow
tiny sentinel
#

uh... again, I'm a noob, so I probably don't even know what I mean

supple mural
#

you have that set to make a mk.5 belt of canisters

#

i dont think you need that

tiny sentinel
#

I did just realize that if I take the canisters out of the production chain (and just make some from plastic after) that the setup gets a lot simpler

oblique hollow
#

do you actually need canisters

tiny sentinel
tiny sentinel
wind spade
#

why do you even need canisters?

#

I'd also suggest not making them out of oil

tiny sentinel
#

packaged liquid biofuel

wind spade
#

what do you need that for? 🤔

tiny sentinel
#

also I don't have any other alts for canisters

wind spade
#

time to get some 🤔

tiny sentinel
# wind spade what do you need that for? 🤔

it's a more efficient form of biofuel. I'm not looking to actively make a lot, just have a simple biofuel processing location where I can dump wood/leaves that clog up my inventory every so often. I'll use it for my vehicles.

supple mural
#

you shouldnt limit your water input in the input tab

wind spade
supple mural
#

that will make it do funky stuff

wind spade
#

and you can put liquid biofuel in fuel gens

supple mural
#

and just siphon off plastic as you need for canisters

oblique hollow
tiny sentinel
supple mural
#

do you have diluted packaged fuel, heavy oil residue, and the recycled rubber and plastic recipes unlocked?

tiny sentinel
wind spade
#

sure 🤷‍♂️ just saying that there are alternative paths you can take that also solve your issues 🤷‍♂️ but you can do whatever you want

supple mural
#

blenders make it even simpler

tiny sentinel
#

well yeah, I could skip the biofuel production chain entirely and just drag leaves/wood to the trash in my inventory, but that's boring and green leaf juice go brrrrr

supple mural
#

but i assume you dont have those yet

tiny sentinel
#

i don't. I'm in T6 right now. I started over with U4 by clearing the map using SCIM but keeping all my tech unlocks.

#

so I'm getting all my production chains going again, but this time with trains!

supple mural
#

trains are fun

tiny sentinel
#

I have an oil rig out on the gold coast and previously I was gonna pipe it all the way to the grasslands, but that was a pain in the ass, so I'm gonna do all the processing on site and export via train, which I think is the intended method.

supple mural
#

fluid trains do exist

#

that's also a good option

tiny sentinel
#

I really want to make steel with the coke steel recipe, but I'll have to bring in the petrol coke via train and barely have enough heavy modular frames for all that. I need to start making those

#

for now though I'm getting my iron processing back up.

#

getting the most out of the impure nodes in the grasslands with pure iron.

supple mural
#

hmm an area that's filled with impure nodes you say?

#

sounds like a great spot to put all my nuclear waste

tiny sentinel
#

quick question though... on this flow chart, am I meant to use valves to get these decimal numbers?

unknown.png
supple mural
#

no

#

you can separate them into two groups which produce the right amounts

#

so like, one set of packagers meant to produce 416.66 and one group 383.33

tiny sentinel
#

so just split the two pipes and the network will balance itself based on how much the machines are consuming?

supple mural
#

you want two separate sets of pipes

#

for rubber and plastic

tiny sentinel
#

i have MK2 pipes

#

so I can run one to plastic and one to fuel

supple mural
#

well that makes that easier

#

but the way that's easiest is to just make two separate diluted fuel setups that produce the perfect amounts

tiny sentinel
#

when I said I'm in T6, I mean I have every milestone unlocked. my only path for progression now is unlocking T7/8

tiny sentinel
noble linden
# tiny sentinel does anyone have a clean layout for 300 crude oil into rubber and plastic and em...

I know I'm a bit late to this one, but I did something similar, it was 5 refineries for plastic, 5 for rubber, into storage (hor turned to fuel for some generators and the overflow into storage) then I took a smart splitter overflow to a sink for both the rubber and plastic with an additional plastic over flow (2 smart splitters on overflow for plastic) to make cannisters that packaged the fuel from the generator overflow for jetpacks and whatever. Works pretty good

red plover
#

My current "just reached tier 5" solution for 120/m oil is 2 plastic refineries, 2 rubber refineries, HOR into fuel for 3 generators. Works good enough for now while I work on my HMF and CPU factories, and then I'll go to the north coast and make a big powerplant, and THEN I'll do some crazy oil processing math and optimize lol

verbal hemlock
#

Would it be better to make HOR or Fuel > Platic/Rubber?

#

oh.. I guess it would depend then.. if i want more Fuel, 600 Crude > Fuel > Plastic would produce more Fuel in general.. compared to 600 Crude > Plastic > Fuel..

tiny sentinel
#

so I'm also planning for the future and looking at Turbo Fuel..

#

I'm not sure but I think I should wait until I have the Blender. I feel like making turbo fuel the old way would be a waste of time if I'm just gonna redo it with the blender

noble linden
#

plus the refinery way uses a lot more sulfur which is apparently a late game issue

shrewd yacht
#

is there something wrong with Greeny's calculator for sloppy alumina?

#

oh never mind

#

forgot water return from scrap recipe

frosty owl
verbal hemlock
#

uh.. correct me if I'm wrong.. if i'm producing 1,500 Crude Oil per Min, that can sustain 25 Refineries.. that would produce 1,000 Fuel per min.. and since Generators consume 12 per min.. it can sustain 83 Generators?
.
1,500 Crude Oil > 25 Refineries to Fuel > 1,000 Fuel per Min, 750 Resin > 83 Generators?.. then that would give me 12,450 Power....
.
If I go half/half for Plastic+Rubber with HOR to Fuel, I'll need 41 Gens, and produce 6,150. Then just sink those Plastic/Rubber for tickets 🙂

tough hornet
verbal hemlock
#

oh. nifty

dull shard
#

Hello !
Is there a good calculator for experimental ?

queen umbra
#

indeed

dull shard
#

Thank's ❤️

frosty owl
#

The answer was always there to begin with @dull shard 😉
checkpins

versed violet
#

Trains-math question:
Did anyone check if train going over flat terrain has the same speed as train going slopes up-down over the same distance?

#

And a trick train theory question:
Trains speed up when going downhill, and keep the excess speed as they continue over flat terrain (it slowly falls down, but lets assume this allows them to cruise at 125% of regular flat speed for most of the route)
If I laid tracks downhill, so train gains speed, then rest of the route flat, and add a climb at the end, would that make the train go faster than a one that goes full distance on flat terrain?
My assumption is that time gained on downhill = time lost on climb up again, but the flat part of the track will be travelled at greater speed.

magic shadow
versed violet
topaz hedge
#

I think it's more or less the amount of track they have to cover. if the flat route is longer than the route that goes over a few hundred meters 2x8 or 4x8 double ramps, it will take longer. train elevators can add a quite a bit of track length too

#

otherwise, if they're the same overall length and they have plenty of locomotive to keep moving, they'll probably work out to be roughly equal.

whole oriole
tiny sentinel
#

I solved my inefficiency on my coal power station! I have 80 coal gens I was feeding 1200 coal with manifold, but a few were starving, so I belted over 480 coal from a pure coal node to bring the belts up to 1680 combined. Now all my coal gens are maxed out on water and coal and humming along nicely.

#

^ me after spending 2 weeks getting this power station fully operational.

iron prairie
#

A lot of this is dictated by the 120 m/s max level-ground speed of trains in Satisfactory, plus the very low amount of drag experienced by trains going on flat, straight track. I'm pretty sure you could cross the map without losing more than 20-30 m/s off of a downhill boost if you avoid any sort of turns or climbs at all costs.

oblique hollow
#

Having 2 stations on hills, i can confirm: travel after the slope is faaaast.
Im starting at the Grass Hills and then tunneling through that cave that has a uranium node, then my next stop is at the cave exit where i pick up quartz

iron prairie
#

For that matter, it may be worthwhile to climb out of the start station just so you can get an even bigger speed boost downhill.

oblique hollow
#

Top speed is around 200 km/h

iron prairie
#

I know manual trains can exceed that by a very large margin, though I have noticed one automated train which started braking once it came close to 200 kph

oblique hollow
#

The worst thing is curves though, those eat up speed too

iron prairie
#

And god-damnit I keep on saying m/s rather than kph: I'm too used to KSP.

versed violet
oblique hollow
versed violet
#

Also, going under ground is a thing

iron prairie
versed violet
#

This looks like something worth testing in real(game)ality

#

Might be useful for folks living on sky ramps

iron prairie
#

It really depends on the geometry (if there are obstacles to avoid, the distance between the stations, etc), but in an idealized case (long distance, flat ground), I'm pretty sure climb, dive, coast is going to be the way to go.

upbeat tide
#

Working on my first big U4 project. Using the 1800 m3 oil on the east shore and making turbofuel. Will be 2400m3 worth. Gonna use the new blended fuel and blended turbo fuel alts too. Much less sulfur usage, which makes me happy

quaint ridge
#

Just make sure that your trains are going downhill all the time guys

upbeat tide
quaint ridge
#

So they just accelerate all the time and it's less power usage / less travel time

upbeat tide
#

Doesnt sound that fesible

quaint ridge
#

just try

quaint ridge
# upbeat tide Doesnt sound that fesible

Oh I see what's bothering you: they shouldn't be able to build up speed and go faster than the speed of light, but I'm pretty sure it's possible, it's just a game, not a realistic physic simulation

upbeat tide
#

Lol 🙂 all good. What I meant was map geography doesnt make that viable to always go downhill

#

Gotta go up eventually

quaint ridge
#

I'm sure you just didn't watch closely enough

#

if the path you wanna take goes up, just change your direction and find one that reach your destination by going down

charred crescent
#

i knew it didnt look right

keen flame
gilded maple
frosty owl
civic wadi
#

Which one should I choose ?

unknown.png
fierce ruin
#

middle

wind spade
#

compacted coal is nice as well

#

opens turbofuel tree

frosty owl
#

Just made a 300 oil to 400 plastic/rubber setup. 100% efficiency, not a sweat @oblique hollow

#

Now to see if I can double that for normal fuel production before my batteries run out ('bout 2 hours) hehe

shrewd yacht
#

what is the cheapest way(resources and power) to make plutonium rods?

#

greenys calculator seem to try to maximise rods with all alts enabled