math-and-meta

[zealous tide]

What am I missing

All belts are mk1 for this example let's say

[oblique hollow]

alright

go on

[zealous tide]

You have max of 60ipm coming out of the first merger

You try to split the 10 that is 1/6th back in

Coming into merger is also 60

So you have 70 total ipm going into the first merger while it can only output 60

Am I doing it wrong somewhere?

[oblique hollow]

all fine so far. its onle the merger logic that gets you caught up

[zealous tide]

There are 10 extra per minute that the merger can't grab

[oblique hollow]

yep. but, the 10 that trinkle in happen so rarely that they dont back up

[zealous tide]

60 from input, 10 from feedback. Which does the merger grab from where?

[oblique hollow]

1 from one side, 1 from the other, if it can

[zealous tide]

How does it not back up, the merger is already maxed

It can't grab the additional without missing others

[oblique hollow]

because it forces one side, then the other, it cycles between inputs

[zealous tide]

It has to back up just slowly

[bleak coral]

because it alternates back and forth, at the exact moment that they're merging the 10 is going through the merger with an available bandwidth of 30, since it alternates so the bandwidth is split 30/30, so it never gets backed up

[zealous tide]

No it's 60 bandwidth

60 in 60 out

+feedback

I thought the input was maxed?

[oblique hollow]

have you seen what a merger does when you apply 60 on both sides, with a 60 limit on the output?

[zealous tide]

Yes it splits from each and both belts back up

You are saying neither would back up

[oblique hollow]

it cycles between the sides

[bleak coral]

the merger can merge the 10 faster than 10, so it can't back up. Because it doesn't give priority it just goes back and forth

[oblique hollow]

and that means that one time momentarily stops being accepted

[oblique hollow]

10 faster than 60, you mean?

[zealous tide]

You guys are saying that 70 items are going into the merger and 70 are coming out. On mk1 belts

[bleak coral]

no

[zealous tide]

I guess I'm retarded then haha

[oblique hollow]

the merger tries to, but it cant

How about another thought:
60 output limit
2 sides are used
the maximum speed at which any side can input, at an equal priority, is 30. if they try to go faster, they back up

makes sense, right? 30 + 30 is 60, no backing up

[bleak coral]

Think of it in the moment not the average. In the moment when those 10 items come back to be merged the input is not going at 60ppm during the merge, it's going at 30ppm until those 10 items pass. So the 10 items pass easily and that line doesn't get backed up. It averages out to 10/50, but that's not how it acts during the moment of the merge.

[zealous tide]

So the input backs up

[bleak coral]

Yes

[zealous tide]

So feedback line on merger in effect is getting priority

Even if not technically, that's the outcome

[frosty owl]

Let's see if I got this right: the merger wants to take from A and O equally (A is source, O is overflow or the 1/6). But since A comes in A LOT FASTER then O, O has time to be emptied out each time it tries to require entry to the merger
Example with A bringing 6x the items of O (like the example). Each line is one item to the merger from A
-Items come from A and O. A goes through
-New Item comes from A. O goes through due to priority
-Item passes from A
-Item passes from A
-Item passes from A
-Repeat

[oblique hollow]

How about i say it like this:
Mergers have sort of a input priority: the lowest item input speed wins, because that wont back up

[zealous tide]

But it would only get priority up to 30 items per minute

[oblique hollow]

10 wins because 10 is below 60/2

30 is the max speed if you use 2 sides

with 3 sides, 20 is the limit

[zealous tide]

Right. So the smallest line gets merger priority up to 50% of max output speed

Or 33% if 3 lines going in

[oblique hollow]

yea. so 20, 20 and 20 get merged equally

but so do 30, 30 and 30, but they all back up, of course

[zealous tide]

Okay you guys were saying it's not priority but it really is essentially

That's where I was getting thrown off

[oblique hollow]

technically, but its basically a speed priority

[zealous tide]

The logic might not give it priority outright but you can manipulate it to

[bleak coral]

Well it's not, that's the wrong word for it. They take turns. And while they're taking turns the bandwidth is split, and the merge back line is under that reduced bandwidth.

[zealous tide]

Yeah that's true

Different way to say it is better

[oblique hollow]

this is where problems start to happen.
i could also do a mk 5 and a mk 5 on both sides of the merger, but then feed one of those mk 5 belts with a mk 1

[zealous tide]

Which belt speed does merger split by?

[oblique hollow]

now what? speed is 780, but one side only has 60 items/min coming in

[zealous tide]

Or is it still half speed of each belt

[oblique hollow]

depends on the output belt

[bleak coral]

2000ppm, artificial hard limit so it's restricted by belt

[zealous tide]

Right

Output belt makes sense ofc

Fuck I knew I didn't want to get involved in this voodoo

[frosty owl]

Lemme rephrase my example as I think I actually got it @zealous tide (each line is 1 item requesting to enter the merger from source A or feedback loop F)
-1 item try to get in from A and F. F is allowed, next will be A
-1 item passes from A
-1 item passes from A
-1 item passes from A
-1 item passes from A
-1 item passes from A
-Item comes from F and already has priority (repeat cycle)

[oblique hollow]

as a general rule, this statement should be safe:
the lowest of all the input speed wins out

because its cant back up that easily

[frosty owl]

This is for a 60/min as input and 1/6 of that as feedback, like in our example

[zealous tide]

Up to 33/50% of max output depending on the belts coming in?

[bleak coral]

The whole restricted bandwidth thing while merging is also why mixing belts can be tricky. If you don't end the line in a sink or make sure that all incoming lines are inputting at under 1/2 or 1/3 constantly (no backups at all to make them sometimes go faster), the mixed items will jam the line.

[oblique hollow]

yep. above that, its equal intake

approximately

so 10 wins out over 60 , because 10 is less than 50% of mk 1

[zealous tide]

Makes sense

[oblique hollow]

i think this "rule" should make things easier

[frosty owl]

Anyone willing to certify wether my example is right or wrong?
I'm still unsure wether I got it right or not with no comments 🤔

[bleak coral]

Yeah it looks right to me.

[zealous tide]

Yep

[frosty owl]

Thx much. Glad I got it

[zealous tide]

As long as line F is < 50% of output belt

Or 33% if 3 coming in

[oblique hollow]

sometimes, even the slower side will back up once in a while, because the merger cycles through all inputs, but that barely affects things

its a very brief pause

[frosty owl]

The example is for a 1/6 feedback (which is why it repeats 6 times before cycling)

*why it has 6 lines

[zealous tide]

Yes but it has to be <50% of what the merger is outputting

Or exactly

[oblique hollow]

inputting things like 30 and 40 gets more complicated

[zealous tide]

Nah the 40 would just back up 10 right?

Or you're saying 30+40+feedback

[oblique hollow]

perhaps. ill see if i can test that

its hard to say rn. since 30 is exactly the limit

[bleak coral]

And if you're just doing normal merge stuff (2/3 lines to 1 line all of the same item), as long as it's not more than 100% total it's fine

[zealous tide]

Right

[frosty owl]

Nvm, me be dumb and read wrong

[zealous tide]

I guess its not important to know though still

Because feedback will always be under the 33/50% limit of the merger

Oh wait that's just in the 1/6th example actually. There might be setups where that could come into play idk

[frosty owl]

I can't actually imagine that unless it's a feedback from another loop or the outputs get full (so the feedback gets full too)

[zealous tide]

Right, because you will never need to split off more than 33% because one single splitter can do that

And you can do 4 with 2

So the most you'll ever need to split off with a feedback loop is for a an even 1/5 setup or higher

Which would only ever be 1/6th of merger output total

Ergo I just said a bunch of shit for no reason

[oblique hollow]

right, after testing: it seems yes, 30 wins over 40

[zealous tide]

That's interesting to know

[tawdry swallow]

alright im home and have the screenshots

[oblique hollow]

just had to build a 0.5 balancer for the mk 1 belt and a 0.333 balancer for a mk 2 belt to get 30 and 40

aka 1/2 and 1/3 balancer

no wait

[tawdry swallow]

this is the over complicated coal plant (80 gens)

[oblique hollow]

egh, lets just call them output reducers

[zealous tide]

Jesus h

[oblique hollow]

could be worse

[zealous tide]

Oh my fuck

How long did that take haha

[tawdry swallow]

like 3 hours

the side piping was the worst part

[zealous tide]

I build fucking slow then

I would think unconfuckulating where your lines are supposed to go in that setup would take 3 hours alone

[tawdry swallow]

i would be happy never to see these pipes again

[frosty owl]

I was gonna point that out
Calling them balancers is confusing since it sounds like you're dividing x lines into y lines

[oblique hollow]

ill be honest, this seems to be some of the most research invested into belt balancers and Limiters since forever

[zealous tide]

I actually enjoy playing with belts and stuff. Most of the common designs like manifolds and stuff I figured out on my own

But balancers/output reducers with different speed belts...
https://c.tenor.com/sSduiXpvPfgAAAAM/scared-heavy-creepy-sir-space-cow.gif

[oblique hollow]

With an entire map dedicated, im sure you could make some nice puzzles

like "make the output exactly X"

[frosty owl]

My love and passion

[zealous tide]

That'd be fun

[frosty owl]

Balance challenges. The next step after the XbyY challenges?

[zealous tide]

I'm going to make a jetpack course, fucking around with flying precisely has helped me when bored or feeling overwhelmed by a design momentarily

[oblique hollow]

make a X to Y balancer

and after belts, we go on to pipe manifolds

[zealous tide]

Ye those are same concept though mostly right

[frosty owl]

But pipes have valves...

[zealous tide]

Except with fuckiness in 4 ways

[oblique hollow]

im talking about puzzles like these

[zealous tide]

Ohh fuck

[oblique hollow]

i worked out the math for that, its quite easy.
also, the same formula works with splitters with different belt mks on the outputs

[frosty owl]

I don't get what is one supposed to resolve

[oblique hollow]

bad example, this one is more of a math challenge. the real puzzles would be giving you only certain valve values to use, like 300, 200, 100

[zealous tide]

Limit this pipe to 100/min?

[frosty owl]

Oh, that'd make sense ahaha

[oblique hollow]

limit this output to Z by only using valves with value W, X or Y

something like that

a harder but more easily enforceable example: limit the output to x by only using Mk1 Pipes, Mk2 Pipes and Junctions

[bleak coral]

that'd be really hard because of pipes bidirectionality and the fact that junctions are both mergers and splitters

[frosty owl]

Allow to use valves with no limit set?

[versed violet]

Could allow unpowered pumps, they block one ways methinks

[frosty owl]

Yeah, but they also stop headlift. Since valves still block one way but don't block headlift, that'd probably be the best choice

[versed violet]

Could always build downhill. No overflow pipe tricks

[frosty owl]

Could always use valves... xD

[winter matrix]

someone please help with refineries, i have the basic setup down but when it comes to the alternate recipe where i can triple my output my brain panics

[torpid robin]

Break it down into smaller numbers . When you need more . Replicate your 1st setup and just scale it up

[sinful vale]

greeny's tool might help you getting a better picture of the numbers to break it down into individual steps

[winter matrix]

just google greeny's tool?

[torpid robin]

Satisfactory tools

[winter matrix]

found it, thank you

[oblique hollow]

@bleak coral ive been thinking about that 50% / 33% merger priority input rule....
In theory, you can indeed have a merger priority that way, but its only supplementary..

[bleak coral]

hmmmm, perhaps you could use it as a sort of balancer? Like use a prime merge-back and a smart splitter to force a certain ratio on a mixed belt?

although I guess whatever gets merged back might just get stuck? I don't know it seems like an interesting thought to explore.

[oblique hollow]

The only limitation is: it is at max a 50% dilution priority

Meaning you can make another line slow down to 50%, at max

Or 33%

[vast jungle]

Not sure about this, especially if you use a multi stage merger to dillute things

[oblique hollow]

thats exactly what im about to find out

[vast jungle]

What do you want to accomplish? A 75/25 merge?

[oblique hollow]

i just took i belt and split it in 3, then merged it into 3 mergers

how much does this reduce the original input?

by a factor of 8

add another and you get 16

so i now have 7.5 to 52.5 input ratio

If CSS ever adds Priority Mergers, which is unlikely, the only way to implement them would be to make them have a large internal buffer for the priority sides

[vast jungle]

The three belts are full?

[oblique hollow]

yep

both sides back up, but the second input only looses 1/8th

while the first one looses 7/8ths

[vast jungle]

Makes sense

[vast jungle]

2^3 is 8

[oblique hollow]

Mk 4:
left is reduced to 60, bottom is 420

[vast jungle]

As expected

[oblique hollow]

add another merger and you get 30 to 450

its all like the old overflow splitter arrangements, just the inverse

.... yes, i could feed 1/3rd from both sides

[vast jungle]

Yes.... Maybe I will use something like this to extend my new warehouse with a "mix of everything"belt

[oblique hollow]

to effectively get 1 to 27

[vast jungle]

I would like to have a "mix of everything" train

Hmm... Would the back merging strategy help to get other ratios?

By slowing down one of the input belts in advance

[oblique hollow]

add a smart splitter with overflow and a final merger and you get the full bottom belt plus 1/8th from the other side

wait.... what if i backmerger part of this

[vast jungle]

My idea is (at the moment) to group items by stack size, merge them symmetrically and then do a weighted merge to get a similar number of stacks from everything I want

[oblique hollow]

ah. as expected, input only got halved again, or so

but yeah: i can now make anything below Mk 5 take priority over any other input

with 1/xth extra from the original being added

so for mk 4: 480 + 60 = 540

yeah, after a search on reddit: someone else repurposed the old overflow splitter design too. but they didnt add the smart splitter for full bottom belt usage

[torpid robin]

buuuut whhhyyyy

seems such a complicated un needed thing to do?

or am i missing something here

[vast jungle]

I want to make a "base building items" train... where I have a similar number of stacks for everything I need... which means I need a weighted merging system... I think what McGalleon is doing is similar

its a tool for the "belt-handling" toolbox...

[torpid robin]

oh

[vast jungle]

hmm

[torpid robin]

i was just gonna run a seperate belt for each of the items i want to go to my train like that 😂

[vast jungle]

I don't want my train to need a single wagon for each item type... at least not with this train

when I am building something new, I don't want to build a 20-wagon trainstation first 😉

[torpid robin]

you only need the station. nothign else. yopu just need somewhere for the loco to go

[vast jungle]

hmm... stack size for "useful" items is 50/100/200/500... which would translate into proportions 1:2:4:10... the first 1:2:4 is trivial...

all my train stations are currently 4 wagons long... I would like to keep this, prevents them from getting even larger than they are

[torpid robin]

i guess all this just comes into the challeneg you are setting yourself with the smaller trains

[vast jungle]

yes... but currently it works out quite fine

and still, at most of my factories the train station is as large as the factory

imagine, a train wagon full of Quickwire 😉

wait... *looking back
there are only four relevant stack sizes... I could use one train car for each of them

then I only need a "balanced merger" for the items in each category...
on the other side, the "500 stack size" wagon would look quite horrible 😉

[torpid robin]

you would be surprised at how fast i can go through a container of quickwire lol

[torpid robin]

you mean. wire.and quickwire lol

[vast jungle]

hmm... what would you do with it? 16000 Wire/Quickwire is quite a bit

[oblique hollow]

there, compactified

[torpid robin]

fuel gens 😂

[oblique hollow]

top is normal, bottom is full priority

[vast jungle]

nice design

16000 Quickwire would be enough for 320 Fuel Gens... okay, I see the "issue" 😉

[oblique hollow]

it was basically just a task for fun

[torpid robin]

fair enough.

cant argue with that logic

[vast jungle]

could this be used for a manifold with a single shared belt? Making sure you already have the right proportions on the belt?

this way the shared manifold would properly block

[oblique hollow]

the only downside here is you get full priority on the bottom, but with 1/27th extra on top

for mk 4, that 480 + 17

you can sort the extra 17 off though, with an overflow splitter at the end

[frosty owl]

That's the only kind of balancer I never bothered learning. Somehow it just doesn't look appealing to me 😅

[minor orchid]

how do i split 60/min ore so 45 goes to left and 15 to right?

[balmy warren]

spilt into 4, combine 3

[minor orchid]

but how do i split into 4

[balmy warren]

feed 2 of the outputs of a splitter into another 2

[vast jungle]

single splitter splits into 2 or three... cascades of splitters split into multiple of 2 and 3... e.g. 2x2=4

if you consider taking some of the outputs of the splitters and merging them back into the belt that goes into the first splitter, you can split with any integer value

[minor orchid]

like that?

[balmy warren]

yes

[minor orchid]

ok, thanks

[vast jungle]

this a split into 2*2 = 4 times 25%... and then merge it into 75% and 25%...

[oblique hollow]

Or just be lazy and do the classic overflow, aka manifold

[minor orchid]

cant, it would be too innefficient

[oblique hollow]

How

[minor orchid]

remember, Stay Efficient!

[oblique hollow]

Its not inefficient

[minor orchid]

i have mod that changes stack size to 500

[oblique hollow]

Then grab a stack and chuck it in

[minor orchid]

it would take loong until it would balance itself

[balmy warren]

every item on a belt is a single item

[vast jungle]

overflow is as efficient as balancer

[oblique hollow]

Aplle is talking about the stack size of the items inside the machine storage

[vast jungle]

stack-size-500 mod... facepalm

[oblique hollow]

The mod increases that, it seems

Just get yourself a stack and put it in there

Otherwise: you could simplify that splitter setup to just 2 splitters and one merger

Splitting 30 to 15 just to recombine it is useless on the left side

[vast jungle]

its a good idea to get the "full split" first.. but then if you notice you combine ALL of a splitters output in the later merging, you can simplify it

[minor orchid]

yes i removed left splitter

it is efficient so its good either way

[oblique hollow]

That 500 stack size mod is going to bite you in the ass later on when your factory gets big

[minor orchid]

why?

[oblique hollow]

Balancer size increases ridiculously fast with more machines

[vast jungle]

and the delay gets worse

[minor orchid]

so remove it?

[oblique hollow]

Same for manifold, but thats another topic

[vast jungle]

sure... increased stack-size is orthogonal to the manifold/balancer issue 😉

[oblique hollow]

Stack sizes are good for storage but terrible for production

[frosty owl]

Not really, at some point you're just manifolding multiple balancers pretty much

[vast jungle]

we are talking about building perfect balancers

[oblique hollow]

More like balancing balancers

You cant manifold balancers that run at maximum belt capacity

[frosty owl]

Example: 780 copper for pure copper. Why balance the whole thing? Just balance so each balancer gets 60 or 120 input, and you can balance-manifold it all

(It's 52 refineries for that)

You still fill each belt only with the needed materials (balanced system) but feed them along a line (manifolded balancers)

[frosty owl]

I don't really get how one could make an "imperfect" balancer 🤔

[vast jungle]

Like you I sometimes mix balancers and manifolds... but you could also build a "pure" balancer, which tend to get quite large especially because of all the belts

[frosty owl]

Yes, pure balancers scale badly. Which is why it seems logical (to me) to just manifold smaller balancers. The only difference between a pure balancer and a manifolded one is that the pure setup will all start at once, while the manifolded one will have "chunks" starting at once. But in the end, the last machine of the manifolded one will turn on in the same time it takes for the pure one to turn on

[vast jungle]

or balance multiple manifolds...

[frosty owl]

Eh... seems less effective then manifolding balancers... You still need a lot of time to fill the machines before everything works properly, that way

[vast jungle]

Balancing gets horrible when your lines of machines don't have the same length... e.g. one line with 15 machines and two with 14 machines

[frosty owl]

What gets bad about it?
I think it's just cumbersome when you have weird numbers of machines, like 7, 11... any prime number bigger then 5 really

[vast jungle]

Bonus horrors if some of the machines are OC/UC

7 lines of machines with 17 machines each? 😉

and the 17 belt line needs a full belt? 😉 😉

okay, that would make the balance/manifold on top useless

[frosty owl]

I would probably make those lines shorter (possibly an even number too) and send all the overflow to the last line

[frosty owl]

On the flip side, you can OC/UC JUST to have nice numbers ;D

E.g.: Pure caterium at 125% takes a convenient 30/min as input

[fierce ruin]

i dont like using the calculator online

[wind spade]

if you used some of the calculators online, you'd figure out that you can make 666.66 turbofuel out of 300 oil 🙂

[fierce ruin]

i dont get that one though, can you show me in a simpler way @wind spade ?

[fierce ruin]

that is a lot clearer then the calculators ive seen, thanks

[wind spade]

it's my tool, you can check it out here 🙂 https://www.satisfactorytools.com/

[fierce ruin]

still putting it on paper xD

[wind spade]

it's up to you, but you can check your numbers there 🙂 not forcing you to use it, just suggesting an alternative 😉

[fierce ruin]

very much appreciated

[forest minnow]

Handy little chart i made to help me with ore extraction maths

arg its so small

[naive ingot]

Well, it's handy and little.

[forest minnow]

i mean it works so oh well

[nimble hinge]

@chilly pilot

[chilly pilot]

oh dang, I need that alt

[vocal folio]

@forest minnow You should define the extraction based of belts since Mk3's and Mk5's have higher speed than the extractors could handle at 100%. You can utilize it and make your factories much more efficient by using the 100% produce. Since, you are not limited to using multiples of 50 as overclock (unless you hate any number other than them), you should fully utilize the shards and put in exact numbers. Use it if you like it or just ignore me.

[forest minnow]

interesting

i shall consider

[abstract thorn]

@wind spade I finally did the thing and it's working well! thanks for the diagram

[hazy birch]

hey guys, does anyone know if a excel/text-friendly database of all the recipes ingame exists anywhere? im looking to make something in excel that lets me pull and compare all the recipes and id rather not write them all up manually from the wiki/ingame when, presumably, all the factory planner tools have a similar db in the background

i figured this is probably the best channel for this sort of nerd shit

[frosty owl]

Ask @wind spade if he's willing to share his data (of it's in the format you're looking for)

[wind spade]

I have JSON data if that helps you

(and it's public licensed, so you can use it 🤷‍♂️ )

[hallow pagoda]

See if the one mentioned in Reddit post works for you: https://old.reddit.com/r/SatisfactoryGame/comments/f6kova/my_indepth_analysis_of_the_new_update_3_alternate/

[hazy birch]

yes please if you dont mind - how would i go about getting it?

[wind spade]

https://github.com/greeny/SatisfactoryTools/blob/dev/data/data.json
it's pretty large file but contains all the info you need. You can send me a DM if you have issues navigating that file and finding proper data

[tribal matrix]

Hmm... the Move Fences mod is crashing the game 😦

Annoying because I quite liked the fences with the gap in them.

[wind spade]

that should go to modding discord

[tribal matrix]

Oh, there's a modding discord?

[wind spade]

link is in #welcome

[nimble hinge]

May I present my latest creation in the search for a clean, globally sustainable energy source.

The Cochrane Cannon

Named after the great Zefram Cochrane, this cannon may attract warp capable species, so please use at your own risk!

With a Hyper Tube Cannon of 23 entrances or greater, aimed with a 45degree inclination out of the playable area, a player may enter into a relaxed state of unresponsiveness while accessing previously unknown dimensions. During this activity, any offerings to warp capable species carried will be taken as tribute removing them from the map entirely. They seem especially fond of nuclear waste, and given its abundance, this symbiotic relationship appears beneficial for both parties.

This combination of Hyper Tube Cannon, and successful removal of nuclear material is known as a "Cochrane Cannon"

-Husky

[nimble hinge]

Can confirm when checking the save file in an editor that there is no sign of the crate or the nuclear waste. While this doesn't confirm the waste is gone (I don't know the workings of the save file reader) I'm thinking it's fairly likely. While the devs in the past have mentioned that driving a vehicle off an edge while full of waste will not delete the vehicle, I don't think this falls into the same category. I think there's a unexpected user interaction here the devs haven't accounted for; as for the effect on your game, only they can know, but so far I've not seen any issues like memory leaks from it. I haven't done that much more testing on it so others feel free to. The bug could be due to entering the cannon via a belt, could be due to the cannon being the last contact with the ground, could be due to the cannon speed putting the crate outside a defined area and so being deleted, could be an error in creation of the crate causing it to fail. Whatever the reason, atm it seems to work, it's clearly an exploit so it's your call where you draw the line on vanilla gameplay (you could just delete the waste in a save file editor of course).

[vast jungle]

Perfect to get rid of doggo-nukes

[wind spade]

let's report it to QA site so that they can fix it

[nimble hinge]

I won't ask where that is, I'll go look for the links :P Edit: https://questions.satisfactorygame.com/

[whole goblet]

@vocal folio. Thanks for the mining beltspeed diagram

[vocal folio]

I am glad it helped someone

[wind spade]

damn I haven't finished watching that

[near imp]

@mystic moon it brings in raw ore and the biggest problem is that i mixed the inputs so i use a smart splitter but it clogs up easily so it takes some time for the waste system to clean it up

[mystic moon]

Oh, makes sense.

[torpid robin]

Easy solution . Don’t mix them

[midnight mantle]

Hey guys, where i saw table with time to fill one Freight Car with different stacks?

[sand garnet]

Always 25 or 27 sec

Forgot which

[midnight mantle]

yes but mean with conveyors 🙂

[sand garnet]

Oh

[midnight mantle]

conveyors time + load time

[sand garnet]

Dunnoabout the freight stations

[midnight mantle]

Here is some time for filling, but idk why this time is there
https://satisfactory.gamepedia.com/Electric_Locomotive

because:
Freight_Car - 32 slots
Example:
Stack size is 100.

32x100 = 3200

Speed of mk5 conv is 780 items per minute.
It mean 3200/780 = 4.1
4.1 to minutes = 4 minutes and 6 seconds.
4 min 6 sec + 25 sec = 4 min 31 sec....

Why there is 0:06:09

[vast jungle]

"why there is" ?

[midnight mantle]

sorry, fixed 🙂

Och, fu...... undestand... if's for Freight_Platform no car one...

But i saw that someone posted here some better table..

[carmine aspen]

pure ingots are insane

4 pure iron ores you can get 1755 iron ingots a minute without overclocking, with just 8 shards you get 3510/min, with 12 shards you get 4,837/min.

2 pure copper nodes can get you 1120 copper/min, 200% miners and you get 2240/min, 250% the miners and you get 2800/min. I haven't gotten to Tier 7 yet, but I hear that copper is important in making alclad aluminium sheets

[midnight mantle]

Miner MK3 on pure node gets 480 ore/min... so 2x = 960 man, but not 1120 😄

[midnight mantle]

4 pure iron with MK3 miner and MK4 belts will give you 1920 ore per minute man.... your calculations is really wrong 😄

[frosty owl]

Max belt speed is 780 though, so you can't extract more than that from a node~

[carmine aspen]

ihg yeah

iM talking about mk2 miners

forgot to clarify

[midnight mantle]

mk2 miner on pure node without overclocking - 240 items per minute 😄 😄 😄

[carmine aspen]

yes

I am not in tier 7, I said this already

[midnight mantle]

so 4 pure node with mk2 miner will give you 960ore/min

[carmine aspen]

yes, and then overclock

[frosty owl]

That's 600 at max overclock

[midnight mantle]

"4 pure iron ores you can get 1755 iron ingots a minute without overclocking" what the f..... , how you get 5 on 4 ores? 😄

[carmine aspen]

pure iron ingot

65/m per refinery

[midnight mantle]

30 iron ore = 30 iron ingot 😄

[carmine aspen]

27 refineries

[frosty owl]

Only in the smelter

[carmine aspen]

I trust that you know what pure iron ingot alt recipe is

35 iron ore/m + 20water/m = 65iron ingot/m

[midnight mantle]

So 😄 You wanted to say:
4 pure iron ores you can get 1755 iron ingots
using: 4x MK2 miner
27 refineries
using alternate receipt
"35 iron ore/m + 20water/m = 65iron ingot/m"
and how much water pump?

[carmine aspen]

the copper one is 15 copper ore/m + 10water/m = 35copper ingot/m

well

[frosty owl]

Funny how once you start using pure you're suddenly swimming in ingots

[carmine aspen]

Im using 3

wait lemme check

[midnight mantle]

Wel....

[frosty owl]

That one is soooo slow...

[carmine aspen]

it is

[midnight mantle]

Copper Ore
15 / min
+
Water
10 / min

Copper Ingot
37.5 / min

😄 OMG

48 MJ / item

Wrost alternate receipt 😄

[frosty owl]

If you lack power, that is :P

[carmine aspen]

I mean 2400 mw of power for 32 refineries

[midnight mantle]

"35 iron ore/m + 20water/m = 65iron ingot/m"

• 27.69 MJ / item

[frosty owl]

Though, I wish it was at least 30/min on the input side... -.-

[carmine aspen]

yeah

[midnight mantle]

For cooper - not using this receipt....

[carmine aspen]

cuts power usage to 1200 and ingot production to 560

atleast with my setup

[midnight mantle]

For iron, man can have 70380 iron ore items/min..... do you really need build 27 refineries 😄 😄 😄

[carmine aspen]

no

but I dont have computers autoed yet

[midnight mantle]

Going sleep.
Check alternate receips, maybe other one will be better?
https://satisfactory.gamepedia.com/Iron_Ore

[carmine aspen]

so I cant use train power to get iron

[frosty owl]

Refinery = material efficiency

[midnight mantle]

What do you mean?

[frosty owl]

Pretty much all alt recipes using refineries are the ones that give you the most items out of your ores

[carmine aspen]

yup

I mean 30 copper ore is 30 ingots with smelters, with refinery 15 copper ore + 10 water is 37,5 ingots

[midnight mantle]

Yeah but.... Electricy...

[carmine aspen]

yah?

[midnight mantle]

Place...

[carmine aspen]

You can get a fuck ton of it with turbofuel

[frosty owl]

Coughs in nuclear

[midnight mantle]

True but then you will not have a lot of plastic and rubber...

[carmine aspen]

I'm setting up my turbofuel rn, and it should be around 18000mw

i stg

[midnight mantle]

Going sleep. Bye bye guys.

[carmine aspen]

crude oil = 40 oil residue & 20 polymer resin/m

that's a lot of fuel you can get with dilute fuel

and then turbofuel

[frosty owl]

And any excess fuel can be turned into even MORE rubber/plastic

[carmine aspen]

exactly

I havent gotten the fuel + rubber = plastic alt yet

but I am gearing up to search all of the alts in the map

my plan is really simple

get auto computers, but the issue is getting there

needed more plastic for circuit boards, liberated some oil and working on that, realized I could make my factory a lot more efficient with correct alts, and then am making packaged fuel for ye olde explorer

wait can you buy packaged fuel with tickets

since my oil production is wacky rn

[sand garnet]

Waste of tickets

[carmine aspen]

it is

but i have like 90

[dusky dust]

If you think there's a chance you might want to go for the Golden Nut statue (or even some of the other cheaper ones), you won't want to buy resources from the shop

Tickets get more and more expensive with each one, exponentially -- it's already a hell of a lot of points to afford the Golden Nut

If you're sure you'll never care about the statues then indeed, it's not too difficult to run out of other things to buy in there. Keep some tickets around for when stuff gets added in future updates, though. :)

[wintry aurora]

Yea, there’s apparently a whole bunch of stuff coming in update 4 for the ficsit store, either that or Jace was trolling us in the UI video.

[torpid robin]

Come on decor . I need even more things that distracts me from actually building my factory

[zealous tide]

I'm in like the exact same spot as you

[short gyro]

Are you playing in experimental? If so, at what tier did you unlock the alternative recipe?

[torpid robin]

Ok so weird question . What’s the easiest way to calculate gradients . That’s easy to remember .

As in I have a 1 in 40 fall over 600 how far down is it

I know the answer . And I know a way to work it out . But is there something that’s easier to remember

1/40=0.025 x .6 = 0.015 is this the easiest way ?

I know off topic but this is the clever people chat

[vast jungle]

@torpid robin: just to confirm with a specific example... you have an incline that goes up by 1 in a distance of 40... you want to know how much it goes up in a distance of 600?

[torpid robin]

yea

[vast jungle]

then I would suggest using the "rule of three"... because its just a linear equation...

[torpid robin]

dafaq is the rule of three

[vast jungle]

your include is 1 over 40... so the incline over "1" is 1/40... so the incline over 600 is (1/40)*600 = 600/40

"rule of three" is just a "linear scaling"... scale down to a common divider (if necessary to one) and then scale up

in case of 600 and 40 you can skip the downscaling at all... because 600/40 = 15... so your incline should be 1*15 (over a distance of 600)

I hope this makes sense

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross-multiplication#Double_rule_of_three

[torpid robin]

thats so not easy to remember 😂

[vast jungle]

thats why I like the graphical explanation... scaling something by a factor (like an image) is easier to imagine

[torpid robin]

i know there is multiple ways to figure this out. and for some reason my mind blanks on it most of the time

[carmine aspen]

I am playing on EA, Tier 6

[torpid robin]

and i know there are graphs you can use to

[carmine aspen]

Autoing computers for trains, and then going to "liberate" all of the oil in the map

[vast jungle]

just imagine it as triangle with a right angle

x-axis of your incline is 40, y-axis of your incline is 1 (1 over 40)

now increase the size of the triangle to blow up the 40 up to 600... the 1 will increase by the same factor

[torpid robin]

i think il just stick with dividing them then multiplying by distance lol 😂

[vast jungle]

thats (as graphics) "scale distance down to one (divide by itself), then scale to new distance"

[torpid robin]

in my job changing measurements like that can just lead to mistakes

[vast jungle]

it only works for things that scale linear

[torpid robin]

thats all fine with nice easy number. but when you are workign with somethign like a 1/12 with a distance of 23,450

that makes it . amess lol

[vast jungle]

yeah... but the idea "shrink to 1, expand to 23450" stays ^^

and the pocket calculator takes care of the rest

[carmine aspen]

ok should I like, use different belts to make 100% efficient machines ?

I'm just now realizing how much there is to learn about this game

[vast jungle]

you don't need to, you can just use the best belt everywhere and still get 100%

[carmine aspen]

ah alr

[vast jungle]

100% is just about feeding a machine enough so it can work continuously... it doesn't drop if the belt blocks because you feed "too much"

[carmine aspen]

idk i heard some people talk about that and I got so confused

[wintry aurora]

I just use the best one available.

[carmine aspen]

yeah same

[wintry aurora]

Well, other than MK2, that one needs to have the materials rebalanced.

[vast jungle]

yes, just for simplicity (and logistics) using the same belt everywhere is a good idea

[carmine aspen]

huh +

[carmine aspen]

what

[wintry aurora]

It needs reinforced iron plates, which are expensive resource wise and the belt itself is expensive.

[carmine aspen]

yeah

when you get mk3 you never need mk2 ever again

[vast jungle]

same when you get mk4... or mk5

[wintry aurora]

Whereas mk3 (iron beams) and mk 4 (encased beams) are relatively easy to mass produce.

[carmine aspen]

yup

[vast jungle]

still, having the ability to get 120 out of a resource node is very nice when it happens 😉

[wintry aurora]

Doesn’t MK5 need aluminum which is harder to produce?

[carmine aspen]

It appears to be a simple recipe

just requires a lot of things, and from where I am I already have it all relatively close

[vast jungle]

aluminium is quite challenging...

[wintry aurora]

True I guess.

On simple recipe.

[carmine aspen]

North of the 3 lakes , in that canyon with 4 pure iron, 2 pure copper, 2 pure limestone and 2 pure quartz with 1 pure coal

all like 200m from eachother

[vast jungle]

yes... but resource density is not everything

[carmine aspen]

ik

[wintry aurora]

The canyon north of the northern forest?

[carmine aspen]

There's a small

[vast jungle]

the space to build there is quite challenging... migth force you into some strange design decisions you have to fix later (I am speaking from experience)

[carmine aspen]

I just built up

ok I didnt actually build up, but I made a floor 36x36 foundations

and that's space'a'plently

how do I explain this... It's East of the Northern forest, in a fjord

I dunno the English word for fjord

[vast jungle]

I know the place

[wintry aurora]

Ok

[vast jungle]

I build my first base between the four iron nodes on the cliff

[carmine aspen]

yeah, that's where I started too

[wintry aurora]

Fjord is Fjord in English, I don’t think there’s an English word for it.

[carmine aspen]

alr

I use those nodes combined with pure iron ingots rn

and I don't think I'll need more

[vast jungle]

Fjord is also German... nice word

[carmine aspen]

very good word to describe a fjord :p

[wintry aurora]

I thought it was a Swedish or Norwegian word? Those are Germanic languages anyhow.

[carmine aspen]

its both

danish too, and german apparently

[oblique hollow]

the inverse works too: how much distance horizontally do you need for going 600 m up?
so 600/1 turns to 1/600. with the previous slope of 1/40, this just becomes: 600 : (1/40) = 24000 m

oh also @torpid robin i guess

[vast jungle]

as long as you scale linear, it works for all sorts of problems

[oblique hollow]

just wanted to draw it. makes understanding it easier

[vast jungle]

yes, definitiely

I was too "lazy" to make some good sketches

[frosty owl]

I used to say the same to teachers, when they asked why didn't I show all the steps in math/geometry tests 😆

[vocal merlin]

can someone check my math on this,
600 oil/min -> (10 ref) -> 200 rubber,200 plastic,300 HOR/min 250 coal,250 sulpher/min -> (10 ass) -> 240 compacted coal/min

300 HOR/min + 240 CC/min -> (8 refine) 240 Turbofuel/min

[frosty owl]

I think it'd be quicker to ask the production planner itself (if you're OK with using those) 🤔
||Checking recipes now||

[frosty owl]

The compacted coal is 1-1 with coal/sulfur so you make 250 not 240. Thus you need 312.5 HOR to turn it all into turbofuel

[frosty owl]

Of course, the numbers are nicer for 250 (and I agree), so just remember to deal with the 10/min extra comp. coal

[vocal merlin]

i follow you

[carmine aspen]

ooh you're using the heavy oil turbofuel

it just seems a lot worse than the reg recipe

atleast to me

[vocal merlin]

It's all i got until RNG blesses me and i get more HDDs lol

[carmine aspen]

ah alr

theres only a max of 7.8k sulfur/min right ?

[wind spade]

use normal turbofuel

[wintry aurora]

Heavy turbofuel alt is probably good if you placed it somewhere without good access to water or you don't want to use diluted fuel.

[carmine aspen]

yup

searching for some hardrives

[forest minnow]

@wind spade do you have a tool to calculate power production?

[carmine aspen]

I mean you just take how many turbofuel/min you produce, divide that by 4.5 for the usage of the gens and then times that by 150 for the power production

[forest minnow]

i dont even use turbo fuel im still trying to figure out coal

[carmine aspen]

:kappa:

15/m/coalgen

one mk1 miner on a pure coal node will get you 8 generators

one mk2 miner pure coal node = 16

and mk3 miner pure coal node = 32 generators

[forest minnow]

this is assuming im using mk 2 belts?

[carmine aspen]

yes

[forest minnow]

alright

[carmine aspen]

pure coal with mk1 miner for you

or normal with mk2

split that 3 times for each gen

[forest minnow]

how many water extractors would i need for 8 generators?

[carmine aspen]

4 at 90%

75*

75% not 90%

[wind spade]

you can check the codex pages, but it isn't a tool (yet)

[forest minnow]

👍

thanks guys

[carmine aspen]

made a shitty thing to show how it works

I hope my writing is readable

[forest minnow]

so 1 extractor for every 2 gens

[carmine aspen]

long sticks are coal gens, circles are miners and water things set to 75%, lines are pipes and belts

set them to 75%, you can do it with 3, but that's just harder to split

[forest minnow]

fair enough

[carmine aspen]

plus splitting with 3 into 8 is just a pain

[forest minnow]

i just gotta make sure my pond is big enough to accommodate 4 succy bois

[carmine aspen]

pond :o

also good luck in making sweet, beautiful pollution!

working on making turbofuel gens myself, and then I can make some awesome things

[forest minnow]

my pond and planned building area

[carmine aspen]

ooo, thats a smol pond

[forest minnow]

yes very smol but i think i can squeeze the pumps in there

[vocal merlin]

@forest minnow @carmine aspen
I think ive got 4 or 5 mik1 miners feeding this beast:

---

[forest minnow]

oh wow

how much does that make?

[magic shadow]

much

[carmine aspen]

30 x 75 = 2250

pretty good

[forest minnow]

dannggg

[carmine aspen]

ahh helllll

casted screws or gunpowder

[magic shadow]

flip a coin

[carmine aspen]

both seem good

[vocal merlin]

yup, it was never run at max before i got Fuel Gens up as well, so it stockpilled huge amounts of coal 😂

[carmine aspen]

lul

12,5 iron ingots/m for 50screws/m or better blackpowder alt ?

actually nvm it wasnt fine black powder casted screws it is

btw is steel rods useful ?

[magic shadow]

fairly

but steel screws are better

[carmine aspen]

what do you use rods for except screws ?

[magic shadow]

modular frames and rotors to start with

[carmine aspen]

nothing else ?

I have steel screws, I just still rely on coal for power

[magic shadow]

https://satisfactory.gamepedia.com/Iron_Rod

it is the basis for most construction

[carmine aspen]

it is

but I have a chest of around 30k iron rods

[sand garnet]

go straight north from that pond and you'll find a big-ass lake at the bottom of a cliff with 4 normal coal nodes right next to it

can also recommend doing a standard 3:8 setup for coal power

3 water extractors feeding 8 coal gens with water

you need 120 coal per setup

[carmine aspen]

4 coal nodes next to it, a pure close by too, right?

Pure Iron node*

[forest minnow]

@sand garnet when i need to expand my power grid, i will take that into consideration. as for right now though that seems like an unnecessary project

[sand garnet]

3:8 is really easy to set up, I'll find you some setup screenshots

#old-questions-and-help message here you go, build any of these setups and just hook up 120 coal to the whole thing in any way you want and you're good to go.

[zealous tide]

It's very easy. Just loop the extractors into two pipes that make a loop and feed your gens

[forest minnow]

so not using a evenly split system?

[sand garnet]

click my link

those setups work 100% guaranteed

no overclocking or anything.

each 3:8 setup gives you 600MW power

[zealous tide]

You don't need to evenly split power gen unless you want it to look pretty. Overflowing the coal and water works just fine.

[forest minnow]

thats true

thank you guys for the help

[sand garnet]

have fun

[zealous tide]

No problem. Just keep in mind that if you build a loop it's limited to the total water going into the system

So even though you can only flow 300pm if you have 360 entering the loop, 180 each side, it will work fine

As you play around with it you'll figure out how that works

[forest minnow]

alright :)

[zealous tide]

But at the same time, if you build a loop but only have two extractors feeding it, it's not going to be sufficient

[forest minnow]

i will update you guys when it is complete

[zealous tide]

@oblique hollow

[magic shadow]

haha nice trek ref @nimble hinge

[zealous tide]

YES FINALLY

[mint hull]

Gg

[oblique hollow]

teaser seems to confirm: packaging nitrogen will need its own "canisters"

[vast jungle]

already posted in screenshots ^^

[bleak coral]

yeah unless they're changing all the empty canister models, I thought they talked about that before but I can't find anything on it now

[oblique hollow]

ah

[oblique hollow]

didnt see that. thx

[bleak coral]

I might also be misremembering them saying gas needs its own canister though lol 😛

[oblique hollow]

also, at the very end, you can see a constructor making those gas bottles

seems to be either iron ingots or aluminium ingots

[wispy abyss]

aluminum into gas bottle maybe?

[oblique hollow]

i kinda doubt aluminium though

[bleak coral]

interesting, yeah that's not a recipe we have

[vast jungle]

I would guess Steel bottle

[oblique hollow]

hmmm

[vast jungle]

but gases are only introduced in T7/8, so aluminium would be okay

and it would give Aluminium more usage... if there is a usecase for the packager

[bleak coral]

steel sounds plausible, it's more complicated than just an iron ingot which is seems too simple for a T8 recipe, but doesn't eat into the little aluminum you can make

[oblique hollow]

you need the packaged nitrogen for the cooling unit, probably

[vast jungle]

the only valid usecase for (un)packger is fuel-dilution in my opinion

[wispy abyss]

also the ingots in the background are silver-ish like aluminum not dark like steel

[oblique hollow]

could be iron though

[bleak coral]

packaging/unpackager is a logistics solution because solids have higher throughput than fluids, so you exchange power, resources (if you don't loop), and space for higher throughput

it's not strictly necessary, but is an interesting option to have

[wintry aurora]

Iron is also bright and shiny though.

[vast jungle]

you would really consider replacing a mk2 pipe (600m3) with a mk5 belt (780) ?

[bleak coral]

train is the bigger jump

solid trains have much higher throughput than liquid trains

[vast jungle]

the fluid train is better than the "packaged fluid train"

no, they have not... unless you throw the empty containers away

[bleak coral]

yeah you would

I never argued it's an efficient solution, but it's one available

[vast jungle]

I would like to see your "more efficient design" that produces and throws away hundreds of empty containers per minute 😉

[wintry aurora]

You can always ship the empty containers back.....

[bleak coral]

I literally never said it was efficient lol wtf is that quote

lies and slander 😛

[vast jungle]

I think even with throwing them away Fluid trains are better... with all the space you need to package/unpackage stuff, you might easier with a second train station.

[crude monolith]

lmao, just loop the containers back. Which kind of defeats the purpose.

[vast jungle]

yes, but looping them back doubles the train station... which means one solid-item train goes against TWO fluid trains... which means the fluid one wins

[wind spade]

no, just double the train length

it's still one train

[vast jungle]

double train length means double space for train station...

[wind spade]

I guess but space is infinite

[wintry aurora]

INFINITRAIN FTW

[crude monolith]

Once you get high enough. 😄

[wintry aurora]

Though really, that'd be a belt, no?

[vast jungle]

with infinite space trains and belts have infinite throughput, so there is no comparison.

[wintry aurora]

infinity=infinity

[vast jungle]

comparison makes only sense for things like "same space" or "same power"

[bleak coral]

solid cars hold 2x the amount that fluid cars do

[crude monolith]

I've been messing around with my train system, expanding it and what not. I assume one day we're going to get collisions and signals. It'll be a nightmare to rework my factory to accommodate those changes, so I'm trying to get them going in a way that won't be an issue in the future. I spent most of the afternoon yesterday yelling at a dumb train not using the proper rail.

Trains ftw!

[bleak coral]

so actually 2x fluid cars is the same throughput as 2x solid with looping, and less if you're not looping

[vast jungle]

don't forget the space to pack/unpack

might be more space-efficient to just add more train fluid terminals

I would bet that even without looping the containers the fluid trains win... because (un)packaging fluids at the limit of a train station costs more space than doubling the size of the train station.

and there is also the space necessary to produce the containers (if you plan to throw them away)... its not for free either at the belt/pipe limit of even a single freight terminal

[bleak coral]

I mean that's what I literally said from the get go haha

I don't think I'd even do it myself, I prefer processing liquids at source and then transporting them

I was just pointing out a use for them

[charred ledge]

@forest minnow my factory that i want to leave

its untidy so starting a new one

[forest minnow]

well, good thing about this game is that you can always build up

[charred ledge]

plus everything is broken since i had a 500 item stack mod

i removed and added only a 500 stack of concrete one

so everything doesnt break when the game gets updated and i play it without mods

i say the same biome*

[forest minnow]

are you planning on starting a new world or just moving biomes

[charred ledge]

new world

[forest minnow]

well im not a veteran in this game or anything but i hear the desert has some nice flat land

[charred ledge]

it has but water is a pain

and any other resource

plus feeding biomass

pain until i get tier 3,4

[forest minnow]

then maybe start in the northern forest, its close to the desert biome but still has resources

[charred ledge]

kk

[forest minnow]

personally i dont like making large multipurpose factories so space is not a huge issue for me

[charred ledge]

well ill have to find the same spot again

since it had 4 pure iron nodes

[forest minnow]

you should use the map website

[charred ledge]

i am

im not new as i said

[forest minnow]

right

i wish you luck

[charred ledge]

ty

also this is my area

2 pure quartz and 4 pure iron

along with oil visible from my base and coal near

correct pic @forest minnow

[forest minnow]

oooh a very rich spot

[charred ledge]

it is

[naive ingot]

It's pretty much unanimously considered the richest spot on the map, so lots of people build there.

[charred ledge]

i mean the pure nodes are insance

i suggest the starting spot of iron

[vast jungle]

the main issue with this space is the rough terrain

[naive ingot]

Indeed, but it's some pretty looking rough terrain.

[vast jungle]

yes, it is... my "old" mainbase sits between/on-top of the 4 pure Iron Nodes...

but I became unhappy with the belt-mess around my base

[naive ingot]

I like that there's enough space down in the valley to place your space elevator so that it's down out of the way.

[frosty owl]

Just beware of the manta~

[naive ingot]

He doesn't come that close to the particular cliff, he makes his turn to buzz the valley about 80m east of the two pure copper nodes.

[frosty owl]

Yep... And yet I'm pretty sure it's not that ubcommon to clip with it~
BTW, it does pass right over the iron nodes too

[naive ingot]

Ah, I guess you're right, but he has some decent altitude in that part of the flight path.

[frosty owl]

"Decent" as long as you don't try to stack too many refineries there ahah

[naive ingot]

Well, okay yeah.

I for one like building my stuff a little closer to nature. (With a few exceptions.)

[frosty owl]

So do I. But... Pure recipes 😅😂

Made 2 floors of refs for the 4 iron nodes right above, manta BARELY passes 2meters over the chimney of one on the top floor

It'll probably be eating some smoke when I turn that on

[naive ingot]

Even if I was to go that way, I built most of my water-drinking refineries down in the valley, just for practicality.

[zealous tide]

Is it possible to kill the manta?

[naive ingot]

No.

There's not even a way to slow it down.

[vast jungle]

the manta nearly flies directly over the lake near the two/three Sulfur-Nodes

[naive ingot]

That's where I built my first manta ride pick-up/drop-off station.

[zealous tide]

Lmfao. What happens if it runs into your stuff?

[naive ingot]

It just clips through.

[zealous tide]

I've only had it get within a meter of my space elevator

[frosty owl]

Lucky you, I already have stations and more refs there.
You know how I didn't mention where did I smelt the pure copper nodes? 😅😂

[naive ingot]

Point.

[frosty owl]

@zealous tide much fun when it clips through a building and you're still inside doing tyour things ^^

[zealous tide]

LMAO that would be a hilarious jump scare

I still vote for the fuzzy alien monkey with four eyes jumping out of storage containers to scare you randomly

But he doesn't hurt you

[naive ingot]

Or when it flies 3m over your head from behind while you're building a skybridge.

Good for a spot of adrenaline a 2am.

[vast jungle]

the Manta killed me nearly once... only the jetpack saved me

[naive ingot]

It does suck getting shoved off a bridge.

[vast jungle]

or off a refinery on a high platform... I think it would have been 70 meters to the ground... shock of my life

[zealous tide]

I will never play this game without jetpack agane

Unless I start a new save. In which case I will be rushing jetpack asap

[oblique hollow]

blade runners are nice n ok. Also Parachutes are heavily underused

[zealous tide]

I always have a couple parachutes on me, I agree

As an avid hypertube cannon wingsuit flyer they have saved my life and prevented my items from being stranded somewhere desolate countless times

Imo a parachute upgrade for jetpack should be in tier 7

One parachute if you run out of fuel

Epic

[nimble hinge]

@shell thunder 100 comp per min from https://www.satisfactorytools.com/
It's nuts

[zealous tide]

What y'all think, is iron wire + stitched plate best in my encased pipe/frame HMF factory?

[sand garnet]

probably, unless there's copper close to you

[zealous tide]

Was trying to reduce complexity mainly

[sand garnet]

if theres enough iron around you, then iron wire is good yes

[zealous tide]

I guess it uses more iron then obv, Ill have to double check the iron supply

[sand garnet]

I'd go with copper, personally

alternatively, pure iron ingot or iron alloy ingot recipe

[topaz hedge]

I wish you could unlock and build geothermal sooner.

[sand garnet]

that would discourage other types of power generation

[zealous tide]

Hmm I don't think that iron wire and solid steel ingot helps me accomplish what I'm looking for xD

Building count is twice as large with both of those recipes

[topaz hedge]

I don't think so. I think it would smooth the transition from coal to oil power...

[sand garnet]

solid steel is god tier though

dont worry about building count IMO, saving material for other uses is a better thing to focus on

[topaz hedge]

Maybe unlockable shortly after alternative fluid transport? I guess it's not at a bad place in the tree. but with U4 changing things, if supercomputers are higher tier I hope they'll adjust geo power accordingly

[nimble hinge]

Until "The Lag" gets you. I nuked a lot of stuff recently just to make it more enjoyable to play.

[sand garnet]

sure, thats definitely true

[nimble hinge]

I'm glad they mentioned refineries specifically when they were talking about why they completely reworked the higher tier stuff. Because late game does get too refinery heavy imo

[sand garnet]

but in that case I'd just build a big powergrid, use the same recipes as before and overclock existing machines to max

still better resource use in the area, and you have the benefit of localized setups

[nimble hinge]

yep that's exactly what I'm doing now, looking to overclock before expanding. I've made every material manufacture modular and stackable, so if it isn't enough I can boost it, then add a new layer only if needed.

but I've not done remote manufacture stations. I gave it a go but didn't find it too fun given the size of train station it ends up making.

[zealous tide]

Yeah but for this project I just wanted to get the building count as small as possible to make a decent amount

[nimble hinge]

I think low building count is a valid factor and I'd put it in the list of "what makes a recipe good"

[zealous tide]

It's looking like the advantage is to the tune of ~4-5 more HMF per minute while requiring 50 more buildings haha

And double the power ofc

~11 HMF per minute vs 16

[empty tusk]

how can i split 300 crude oil to 10 refinery ?

[sand garnet]

manifold

[zealous tide]

Run a long ass pipe and connect all of them to it with a 4-way

Ezpz

[empty tusk]

but it wont split equally

[zealous tide]

Why

[sand garnet]

manifolds fill up where needed

[nimble hinge]

build a tiny pipe out the front of the refinery, as short as you can. then delete the pipe support leaving just a pipe. Finally attach a pipe intersection to the end of the short bit of pipe, it should now snap. Do it for each one and then hook all of those up.

[empty tusk]

will try it

but the last one will have low rate

[zealous tide]

The first one can only take so much, the rest will overflow to the others

The last one will have low rate until the system fills up then it will produce identically

[nimble hinge]

the refineries will use what they need to, leaving the remainder in the pipe for the other ones. As long as there is enough fluid being pumped into the pipe and the pipe isn't exceeding it's flow rate it'll be fine

[zealous tide]

Provided you have enough entering the system in the first place

[empty tusk]

okay thank u guys will try it

[sand garnet]

it just takes a bit of time for everything to start working fully

[iron flicker]

are t6 conveyors coming in the new update

[sand garnet]

as long as the input matches what the refineries need, you just need to wait

[sand garnet]

we dont know, they havent said anything about it

[iron flicker]

oh ok

i want to be able to use overclocked t3 miner

[nimble hinge]

with the manifold system, the last refinery will be the lowest priority to get fluid, but once the others are filled it won't matter anymore.

[sand garnet]

youcan overclock it

to 163% lol

[nimble hinge]

I wish they'd put a double output on it at least, it looks the perfect size. That'd give you enough bandwidth to belt it out at max overclock I think

[iron flicker]

wait wdym double output

[zealous tide]

Actually shocked they didn't already do that

[sand garnet]

double output seems viable for mk4 miner if we ever get that

[nimble hinge]

like the freight platform

[iron flicker]

what?

sry im new to satisfactory

[nimble hinge]

two output ports

[iron flicker]

oh i thought it was already in the game

mb

[nimble hinge]

the mk3 miner only has one output port, which our current belt rates can't keep up with if overclocked

[iron flicker]

got it

[bleak coral]

Only way I see a double output on mk3 is if they give up on mk6 belts, which would be unfortunate.

[frosty owl]

@empty tusk I suggest against using the smallest pipe segments possible, especially if you're trying to use a full pipe of anything (300/min in MK1). Give your pipes some more "buffering room" close to intersections

[nimble hinge]

I only use the small ones directly on the refinery, that still bad?

[empty tusk]

do u have any picture of it so it will be clearer please ?

[frosty owl]

Send or linka Pic, so we can compare

[frosty owl]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/553550313533997057/804759888210559036/Screenshot20210128-23441300000.png

Ignore the arrows. Even half height would be OK, though

[nimble hinge]

Like that, tiny nub pipe on the refinery, main line is mk2. obviously I just tossed this on the ground for the picture

[frosty owl]

Yeah, I think having that little buffer can increase your chance of seeing issues when using max flow from a pipe

[empty tusk]

i need the max flow cz am running 10 refinery

[nimble hinge]

Hmm, I've never noticed a problem, I tend to run all my pipes max flow all the time. But then I've never inspected it that closely, or had any reason to worry over a missing unit per min or anything.

what kind of issues can the small buffer cause?

[frosty owl]

The loss isn't over 2 or 3 units/min, as far as I've seen, so not everybody cares xD

[nimble hinge]

Just rounding errors then

[frosty owl]

Pretty much. Not an issue in particular with the buffer, it just makes the existing problem a bit worse

At least as far as I've seen

[nimble hinge]

So something like, if the refinery asks for an amount of fluid that exceeds the volume available in the pipe, the pipe provides the full fluid volume available rounded down and then wipes the content of the pipe? I thought the pipes worked in floating point, not integers.

[empty tusk]

if i have 300 oil coming it will be 150 on each side so i have 10 oil extra on each side

[frosty owl]

Rising your pipes to the pole's max height can make long enough pipes to have a decent buffer, IMO

[frosty owl]

How's that 10 extra?
150+150 is 300

[nimble hinge]

I guess the only way to really know if there is a fluid loss would be to build a complete enclosed system and leave it running.

[frosty owl]

I'm not sure about the math behind, but I think it has more to do with how the suddenly empty pipe make the fluctuations in flow rate too sudden, leading to errors

[empty tusk]

well each refinery need 30 oil how am gonna divide that 150 ?

need to divide it into 5 and thats the problem

[frosty owl]

Done 👍
I didn't register any loss with 600/min crude making HOR, but did notice a loss of less then 1/min in the HOR going to make fuel

[nimble hinge]

300/2 = 150 per side
30 oil each x 5 refineries = 150

sorry, wrong reply there

[empty tusk]

and how can i divide 150 to 5 ?

[nimble hinge]

oh! you don't need to, just pipe it all down the line and have an intersection at each one. It's called a manifold

[frosty owl]

You just manifold the pipes, as soon as they fill up with oil the outputs will balance out and provide 30/min to each. Making a buffer before the 150 lines can help you a lot in tracking how filling speed and such work

[empty tusk]

ummm u sure the last refinery will work ?

[nimble hinge]

refinery 1 fills and stops accepting fluid, so it all goes down the line to 2, 2 fills so it goes to 3, etc

[empty tusk]

u think i need a pump at the start ?

[nimble hinge]

Absolutely positive it'll work as long as you put 300 oil into the pipe and use 300 in the refineries.

[frosty owl]

Once all pipes have filled up yes. That is WHY I suggest the buffer, as if yoh full that up first, it will be able to provide 300/min to the 150/line for when you boot up the refineries the first time

[nimble hinge]

pump would only be if there is a height difference, the oil platform gives a starting pressure

[empty tusk]

yeah i got a big buffer

[frosty owl]

With MK1 pipes 2 small are best then 1 big in this scenario, as they provide more flow rate

[empty tusk]

maybe put a buffer on each side

[frosty owl]

It IS overkill, meaning you don't NEED it for the system to run, but it is cibcenient to have

[empty tusk]

anyone got a cool factory i can join and take a look ?

[nimble hinge]

so... Do smart splitters really store an item... This is really odd

[unkempt grail]

well, all splitters store items

[nimble hinge]

Why on earth would they do that though

[zealous tide]

Yeah they have like a buffer internally. 7 or 9 items or something

[nimble hinge]

but why do they hold onto the buffer and not purge it immediately when possible

I made myself an item sorter, and it just helps itself to some items until the next batch come along

[zealous tide]

Oh you're saying it's stuck inside?

[nimble hinge]

wait no.. only half of them hold onto stuff. Yeah 100% stuck inside

[zealous tide]

Someone else described that as a bug the other day iirc

[nimble hinge]

Give it 100 plastic, get 97 back

sorry, 93 back

[zealous tide]

Delete and replace and see if it still happens

[nimble hinge]

give it 100 iron ingots, get 93 iron ingots back plus 7 plastic xD

[zealous tide]

I think someone described it as getting stuck holding items after something happened lol

Wait wtf lol

It purges it if you put a diff item in?

Build a new one next to it and see if it has the same behavior haha

[nimble hinge]

yep, it likes new things apparently. got a fricken gold digger for an item sorter

gonna feed it other things

wait what. Now I've really confused. I gave it 100 copper sheets, which it actually has a sort position for. It sorted the copper plates and then output some stuck iron and plastic xD

[zealous tide]

Wdf

[nimble hinge]

it's getting stranger. I tried to purge the whole thing by just feeding in a ton of aluminium sheets, it cant sort those so they end up in overflow. Then I put another non sortable item in. Got a bunch of sheets back, but there was still plastic in it XD

Put 100 coal in, 1 sheet, 96 coal and 3 of the other item. Sooooo broken lol. I'll figure this one out tomorrow me thinks, bed time for now.

[frosty owl]

If you set the splitter to plastic right and overflow middle, once rught is full, the splitter will store plastic up to its max capacity, that will be "stuck" there until the right belt can take out the stock plus all incoming (refilling such stock)

[nimble hinge]

but in this case it's only got set something like "Iron plate" "none" and "overflow" and it's being given coal... So why is it holding the coal with no blockage of the belt, and then why does it swap that coal out (sometimes) when a newer item comes along.

I always get the correct number back, but of items that may or may not include previously stuck ones.

[frosty owl]

Although with different rules, as there is no filtering complicating things, even normal storages show this when their outputs fill up
E.g: even if you take out input, once the output of the splitter is full, once the output clears up the splitter will still output 7 or so items from its storage. Those may still stay stuck inside the splitter of they were qued on a specific output

[nimble hinge]

yeah so they aren't spitting out those items.

and their output isn't full either, it's an empty belt

[frosty owl]

I'm sure they can "hold onto" items for a few seconds (kind of an output lag) but they should empty their stock if their belts and qued items allow it

[nimble hinge]

not happening here at all. It can take hundreds of items passing through before they might give it up. And then it's just swapping the item out for one of the new one being fed to it

It means there is likely an amount of items that primed the system the first time I used it, which all got stuck, since then it's just been slowly swapping those out at seemingly random times.

initially it was looking like a repeatable 7 items held of the new and 7 returned of the previous. Given I have 14 splitters in the row this seems significant. Perhaps when one takes and item from the belt it leaves a gap, meaning the next one doesn't encounter the same issue, but the following one will? I'd need to rebuild it in a nicer area not tucked under the floor really

for now it's bed time, feel free to play with that headache ha

[zealous tide]

Yeah the problem is the output belts are empty

And the items are staying inside the splitter

@nimble hinge I think it's not default behavior but something caused your splitter to get stuck in some condition that causes that, have you tried on a new splitter or deleting that one that's sucking up items and replacing it?

[nimble hinge]

I'll have a go tomorrow, it was brand new fresh out the box though.

[zealous tide]

That's fffff'ddddddd

[nimble hinge]

After some testing, it appears to be a bug with the overflow function. I'll make a bug report for it, but in the mean time, if you're using overflow for a splitter just be aware it'll keep hold of some stuff most likely. You can see what it has inside by hovering the deconstruct tool over it. I resolved it for my sorter by using "any undefined" instead which has no issue.

It's a known bug
https://questions.satisfactorygame.com/post/5ed68b2f6f3c82fe950b2e13
https://questions.satisfactorygame.com/post/6025b3fefedfd12dd739ac03

[jade minnow]

But you have to be careful that the path where you are sending the defined items doesn't get full. If you only use "any undefined" and not "overflow", the whole belt will get stuck if it can't send any defined items to the next belt

Because in regular gameplay you always have something running over your belts, it doesn't really matter if the splitter has a buffer inside

it's like you make the belt go a little detour, in the end every item will get to its destination

[cold snow]

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/satisfactory_gamepedia_en/images/d/df/Belt_compressor_schematic.png/revision/latest?cb=20200602073827 is there a cheaper/simpler way to compress 6 600 belts into 780 belts? need to do the same later with 720 belts but that would take a lot of space this way

[oblique hollow]

6 x 600 into 780?

Hmmm

Best i could think of is a merger-splitter-manifold

Hang on, ill draw something up

[cold snow]

so bottom left of the picture?

[oblique hollow]

Not quite

[oblique hollow]

heres what ive been thinking

[cold snow]

on the right you have 300+300=780 😐

[oblique hollow]

well thats because i was too lazy to add another text field

better?

[cold snow]

so you mean it should balance itself out and i dont need smart splitters?

[oblique hollow]

yeah, usually splitters can do that

[jade minnow]

That's pretty much the way overflow manifolds work

[oblique hollow]

aye, this is pretty much an injection manifold with multiple injection points

[wind spade]

don't think this will self-balance

[jade minnow]

If the first thing is not taking any more items, they will be sent to the next belt

[oblique hollow]

it was my best guess

otherwise you could replace those normal splitters with overflow smart splitters

[wind spade]

look at the second belt from left. It initially splits 300/300, the 300 that goes to left side gets merged with 600, so it'll merge in 300/480 ratio, since mergers try to take as equally as possible. So the leftmost belt will be limited to 480

[magic shadow]

what do you use to make that @oblique hollow

[oblique hollow]

https://app.diagrams.net/

[oblique hollow]

you could enforce 120 to 480 with mk 2 and mk 4

[wind spade]

I guess, but from what I've heard, game is crap at doing this and you'll end up with lower numbers

[oblique hollow]

this is one of the few cases where mixing belts on splitters results in a nice output

i can test it and see if it works if you want

[cold snow]

🙈 i would need to find the materials for those low tier belts first 😅

completly forgot that you can use those slower belts for such things

[oblique hollow]

mk 2 is reinforced iron plates

dont tell me you dont have RIPS

[cold snow]

i just dont know where in my starter factory those are 😂

[oblique hollow]

shame. constructors need RIPs to be built too

[cold snow]

5 minutes of searching should be fine

[jade minnow]

You mean the "more than one time splitting" is calculated inaccurately by the game?

[oblique hollow]

more like "mixing belt tiers on splitters causes weird stuff"

but i know my output ratios.

[wind spade]

I mean that game isn't 100% accurate in maxing a belt with mergers, that usually results in slightly lower than max numbers

[jade minnow]

What if you use an industrial container to merge 2 belts? Does that work better? Although it would take a whole lot more place lol

[oblique hollow]

smh really making me run satisfactory now

[wind spade]

that's what I heard 🤷‍♂️

[oblique hollow]

well, time to verify

[wind spade]

also not sure if this was due to some specific setup

or just in general

[oblique hollow]

i know belts have issues with the numbers, framerate affects them, etc

[wind spade]

but I remember at least one user timing exactly one minute on video and showing that he got less than 780 items in a container

(merged from two full containers)

[oblique hollow]

when was that?

[jade minnow]

But many ppl mentioned the mk5 belt being a little buggy, gotta try that some time myself 😛

[cold snow]

reminding me that mk1 belts exists also makes figuring out how to get 720 lines to 780 lines 😄

will be fun to combine the 40 belts 🙈

[wind spade]

I don't get people who want to combine belts into slightly less belts

why not just use the exact amounts that are on the belts? 😛

[cold snow]

makes the factories the stuff gets transported to by train neater to plan 😛 having 780 belts only is simpler than 720 belts

i mean i got a 5 floor, 440 refineries iron factory in progress atm, so fewer belts is nicer 😄

tho there are lines of 22 refineries, meaning there are going to be some ressources to spare at the end of lines which also need to get collected

[oblique hollow]

wait a minute

im an idiot

600 + 120 is NOT 780

aaaagh

@cold snow shame on you for not telling me either

[cold snow]

well, i didnt notice either 😬

[oblique hollow]

we both get an F in Math

[cold snow]

this is math with numbers, a rare thing for me

well i guess smartsplitters it is or some extra weird belting which i would need to plan

[oblique hollow]

your best bet is smart splitter with overflow, yes

[nimble hinge]

What they need are good ol' fashioned balancers!!

on a more serious note, people want to reduce the footprint of the build, hence less belts. Less lag, less building, less etc

[oblique hollow]

but in trying to do that they build overly complicated merger splitter arrays that take up an entire hall

and then they cry "CSS pliz gib smart merger"

ill be honest: a smart merger seems to be the only way to proberly make an integer belt divider that takes x belts in and reduces em to y belts

[wind spade]

I don't talk about specific value, with underclocking it's always simple to design a factory that eats exact amount

[oblique hollow]

btw greeny, i tested mk 2 and mk 4 on a merger

no issues dividing /merging 600 there

[wind spade]

if you want to reduce footprint of some stacked belts, use a train 🙂

[wind spade]

I think the issue was merging two 780 belts together and not getting 780

but I don't remember even what I had for breakfast, so I may be wrong here

[nimble hinge]

cornflakes

[cold snow]

oh well, i will see if i just build another 20 refnieries at ~30% or collect the excess from the belts

[nimble hinge]

If you know the rates the factories are putting out onto the belts, really it isn't too hard to merge them into a smaller number of belts.

[oblique hollow]

seems fine to me. 2 mk 5 in one mk 5 out, both input belts back up

and output is full

[wind spade]

that's not what they measured. They measured in the output container if you get 780/min